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I find it really funny that the "no-origin crowd" is so upset over Batman not being developed enough in Burton's films while they're fine with the Joker in Nolan's film having no origin established and just him talking gibberish. 

Backstory isn't present character development. The character in the film tdk is very developed, where his emotions, his thoughts and his actions are all explored. But I've never given thought to Bruce being underdeveloped in batman 89.

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You'll need to solve all of the riddles before you can pinpoint Riddler's hideout. When you find where he is, you have to carefully perform a takedown underneath the floor or else you'll trigger the bombs strapped on all of the hostages. Because Batman has a weakass no-kill policy, the Riddler walks around with a dud bomb wrapped around his neck..but of course the joke's on him since he doesn't know that! You can walk towards him and he'll start to panic. 

How is it weak?

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If by sacrifice - you mean Batman taking the fall to prevent people from getting devastated over what Dent did, then no, I don't agree.

It's one thing for a film to give us an impossibly idealistic scenario that shows all people are good, but I hate the mixed message the ending of this film makes. Don't show one moment of ugly human behavior i.e. people caving into Joker's demands by trying to kill Reese, but then expect me to believe a completely unrealistic scenario of citizens and convicts refusing to kill each other when their lives are in danger. And don't expect me to embrace Batman telling a lie that undermines his belief that people can persevere by covering up Dent's crimes. If people are willing to believe in good, and they just proved what Batman has been saying throughout that boat scene, then they can cope with the news that Dent became a psychopath. Otherwise, I guess Batman deep down agrees with Joker's bleak view on human nature after all?

He doesn't agree with it. But he fears the possibility. It's not something he's wants to risk. It doesn't undermine his belief, because that belief in the movie was about Harvey. The people don't cave to the joker's commands. Some do. Others, the majority, don't. Things aren't clean cut. It isn't just that people are bad or good. There are both. The movie shows that. Moroni feels bad for the actions of the joker. The russian doesn't. There several people who do nothing on the boats, several people who vote to blow the other one up, but no one does. Bruce doesn't break, but Harvey does. I'm sorry, but it keeps seeming like you didn't pay attention to the movie.

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I'd normally agree, but these films keep punching us in the face that he's against killing. Batman doesn't define when killing is okay in some circumstances, he just talks about how bad it is. Once again, it can't be both ways.

It isn't. He hasn't killed intentionally.

Yet, as you already knew, Batman decided to let Ra's die upon setting him up in a death trap.

He didn't do that. Ra's did. He stabbed the console. He set himself up.

Indeed. That entire "moral argument" was a complete and utter waste of time.

It's never a waste of time. That's like saying fighting against crime is a waste of time because you'll never fully defeat it all yourself.

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And did so without carrying a burden any longer. 

As for TDKR's ending? I read an improvised ending that BatmAngelus came up with from a few years ago which I thought was much better:

A lot of TDKRises fans chalk up the critics as fanboys who can't let go of the fact that Batman quit and think he should go on forever.  To me, it's not about that.  It's the execution. 

Want to give Batman a definite ending and have Bruce Wayne hang up the cowl?  Okay, Chris.  But do it in a way that fits with the themes you were setting up in the last two movies, that keeps Bruce as the heroic figure we've been rooting for since Begins, and doesn't make us ask a ton of logic questions to ourselves before the credits roll. 

It also would've helped if Bruce hadn't already quit being Batman for eight years before the film started.  If the movie's about how Bruce needs to give up on being Batman, don't start with him having already done it 'cause then you've defeated the purpose.

Hell, I'm not even convinced "Batman" had to die at the end either, but things would've sat a lot better with me if "Batman died but Bruce Wayne lived" in the eyes of Gotham City.  It still wouldn't have solved things like "How did he get out of the Bat in time?" but this would've helped a lot of other issues. 

By staying in Gotham as Bruce, he wouldn't have come across as a selfish jerk, like in the current ending, for making his friends and allies, including the man who raised him, think he was dead.  Everyone who knew he was really Batman would know that he was still alive.

You also wouldn't have people wondering "Why hasn't anyone figured out that Bruce was Batman if they both died?" or "How/when the heck did Bruce have time to write his will?"

This ending also would've eliminated the restaurant reunion, which means Alfred wouldn't end up broadcasting the movie's ending in the first fifteen minutes or saying that he never wanted Bruce to come home from his travels (which was never remotely hinted at in Begins in the first place, so this wouldn't have been much of a loss).  And Bruce and Selina wouldn't magically be able to dine at the same restaurant in Italy at the same time. 

Instead, Bruce and Alfred might've actually had a real, heartfelt reunion/reconciliation in Wayne Manor, instead of just a nod and a grin, now that Bruce had finally moved on from being Batman. 
(Honestly, if I were Alfred, I wouldn't have been smiling upon seeing Bruce.  I would've been pissed that the kid made me think he was dead this whole time).

On a big thematic level, Bruce Wayne could actually regain his fortune, which would've fulfilled how Batman always "picks himself up" after tragedy (instead of quitting and running away from it all). 

Instead of leaving Gothamites to pick up the pieces from all of Bane's destruction so he could hook up with Selina in Europe, Bruce could've put funding back into the orphanage himself and used his resources to help the city rebuild itself, like his father did, finally shedding the playboy persona and living up to the Wayne family name, truly bringing the themes all back to Batman Begins (and fulfilling what Alfred advises earlier in the film anyway). 

We'd actually get to witness "the day that Gotham wouldn't need Batman" that was hinted at way back in 2005.
Too bad that was all contradicted in the current ending with the return of the Bat Signal and Blake getting the Batcave.

Honestly, I don't think the TDKRises fans would love the film any less if Nolan went for this ending.  The movie would've lost very little, yet gained so much.

The film is about how he can't be batman anymore and he needs to let go of his parents death. Not about how he needs to give up being batman.

Everyone knew he was still alive by the end too.

He wrote his will before he gave his company to Miranda.

He isn't batman anymore. But letting go of it all and moving on does show that he picks himself up. He does put stuff into the city.

The day that gotham won't need batman wasn't going to happen. That was realized at the end of tdk.

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True, but he DOES use the guns on The Bat to flat-out blow away the driver of the truck at the end. No way that was an accident.

It was actually. Bruce was trying to redirect the truck to get it to go where the fusion bomb could contained. Lucius says that to Bruce.

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The fact that he does kill makes it puzzling why he'd be so adamant against using guns in the first place. Yeah, he may not aim and fire his guns at people every time he drives a vehicle, but you'd think he'd understand by now that lethal force is inevitable sometimes. And in such moments, a gun - as Selina was implying - is certainly a valuable tool to save lives.

Which once again, it only adds to many contradictory things that this Batman says in this series. It was an unnecessary thing to say.

It's not contradictory. He doesn't use guns to kill someone the one time that he does kill someone, and even that was accidental. His stance against using guns to kill can't be contradictory because he's never used them to kill. Basically you want him to realize that he should kill because he killed one person accidentally while saving the kid of his friend from being murdered, which doesn't fit. Killing someone accidentally doesn't automatically mean you'll think killing is necessary.

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I know I would like to see a Batman tv show that exists in the Flash/Arrow universe. So much so, that I even came up with four seasons of a Batman tv show. But let's all have fun with this. Would you like to see a Batman tv show in the Flarrow universe? How would you do it? Who would you want in it?

This is my fan cast.

Luke Mitchell or Ryan Kennedy as Bruce Wayne/Batman

Shelley Hennig or Nina Dobrev as Selina Kyle/Catwoman

Jack Coleman as Captain James Gordon

Colin Donnell as Harvey Dent/Two-Face

Brie Larson as Barbara Gordon/Batgirl/Oracle

Dylan Minnette as Richard "Dick" Grayson/Robin/Nightwing

Adam Godley as Alfred Pennyworth

Alan Tudyk as The Red Hood/The Joker

Alison Brie as Dr. Harleen Quinzel/Harley Quinn

Lacey Chabert as Zatanna Zatara

Seth Gabel as Edward Nashton/Edward Nygma/The Riddler

Tobin Bell as Victor Fries/Mr. Freeze

Giancarlo Esposito as Professor Hugo Strange

Garret Dillahunt as Julian Day/The Calendar Man

Yvonne Strahovski as Firefly

Alexis Denisof as Zsazz

Kevin Durand as Killer Croc

Mark A. Shephard as Oswald Cobblepot/Penguin

Joe Morton as Lucius Fox

Enver Gjoak as Roman Sionis/Black Mask

Mark Pellegrino as Kirk Langstrom/Man-Bat

Jeremy Davies as Jonathan Crane/The Scarecrow

Claire Holt as Pamela Isley/Poison Ivy

Oded Fehr as Ra's Al Ghul

Laura Mennell as Talia Al Ghul

Blair Brown as Dr. Leslie Thompkins


I also couldn't think up someone to play the Mad Hatter. So, I would really like a suggestion on that.

This is a season one episode list.

The Bat
Dark Disguise
Not So Smart
Enough Days In The Week
Like Father, Like Son
The Birdcage
Inspiration
The Sincerest Form Of Flattery
Eco-Friendly
A Really Bad Day
The Long Halloween Part One
Joke's On You
A Magician's Touch
Cold Blooded
Lips Of Poison
Fan The Flames
Heads Or Tails
Batgirl
Hat Of Madness
How To Catch A Bat
Everything To Fear
A Holiday's End
The Long Halloween Part Two

The first half is mainly dealing with mobsters and killers, with the Red Hood being the antagonist at the end in the mid-season finale. The idea of this is that the city is just average crime-wise. The insanity hasn't taken over the city yet. There's little things, like a Riddle based criminal who likes to prove he's smarter than everyone else, or a Cat burglar who takes the "cat" part a little too literally, even an over-enthusiastic eco-terrorist and a thug working for Oswald Cobblepot that has a scaly skin condition, but that's about it. The criminals are fairly average, as are their crimes: Serial killers and mobsters. Batman changes the way people look at themselves as criminals. A joke of a mobster Ozzy "The Penguin" Cobblepot the joke of the criminal underworld becomes angrier more vicious, less cowardly, Roman Sionis kills his Father, the head of the Sionis crime syndicate, by setting him on fire, leaving only his blackened skeleton and smashes his coffin at his funeral and keeps a piece of it to carry around like a security blanket. The Red Hood's view of reality starts to warp and become distorted. The Red Hood kidnaps the mobsters in the mid-season finale to force them to prove to him that they deserve to live in the vision he has for Gotham. Harvey Dent begins to crack as well, lashing out in anger, taking an almost vicious view of justice at first. The idea is seeing the the city become the city we know about. The character becoming the characters we know. Jim has to develop a trust and partnership with Batman. Bruce has to fully become Batman. Barbara has to become restless and agitated with the state of the city and develop a desire to do something about it and become inspired by Batman. The RH gathers the mobsters at Ace Chemicals Plant, where Batman comes after him. This concludes with The RH falling into the chemicals.

We then time jump ahead a year.

The second half is when stuff gets crazy. Like Frozen Men and a Super Strong Zombie and Magician's and Giant Bat Creatures and Fear Toxin spraying Men and Mind Controlling Hats and Fire shooting Bug Women. The Joker comes in and Harvey Dent cracks in half finally and becomes Two-Face. Robin comes in and Barbara becomes Batgirl. That's basically about how now that Bruce is fully Batman how does he deal with it, especially now that he's got a team to worry about, with this background arc of The Holiday Killer.

Season 2 is going to be focused on a more mini-arc based status with the background of a League Of Assassins threat.

There's a time alteration arc. This would involve a crossover with Flash and a discussion about the dangers of time travel. Helena's redemption arc would arise in this as well. As would Dr. Fate. Helena's issues would be shown as a side effect of the time travel that occurred within this universe.
Then we'd have a Court Of Owls arc.
Then we'd have a Hush/Ra's Al Guhl intermingling arc. The idea of this would play out as road to the season finale arc. The Court Of Owls might have a play in all that as well.

Special thanks to i-own-a-bearshark on tumblr for the idea of having the court of owls involved in season 2.

Meanwhile there would episodes that would have focus on some characters like Slade Wilson. As a way to right the wrongs of his character. If ya'll have any ideas on that I'd like to hear them.

Ra's is going to have to be nixed. By that I mean I'd have to completely discredit Arrow's version. Ra's would say that Fake Ra's was once a student of his that he'd chosen to take his place, but he failed his test to kill Damien Darhk, so Ra's kicked him out. He then took over an abandoned Ra's Al Guhl area and put together his own League as a way to prove himself to the real Ra's. The whole Oliver is the new Ra's thing would've been his way of adhering to the League rules and killing Damien Darhk to impress the real Ra's and hopefully gain his acceptance. This isn't a crack on the actor who played him on Arrow. But on the character.

The Ra's Al Ghul daughter thing is an idea that I've given some thought. That would be something to get around. The first idea I had was that Fake Ra's stole Nyssa as a baby from one of Ra's lovers and kept it as his own as a way to have a cemented Al Ghul reign in his League.

An idea that I thought would work, again with a little something from i-own-a-bearshark, is to have a Green Arrow vs Batman two part episode, possibly as the season 2 premiere.

Among all of this would be Harley Quinn's character arc.
The introduction of Jason Todd.

My thoughts with Harley Quinn are different than other versions. I want to play up the pathos of the character more and have a stronger emphasis on her friendship with Poison Ivy. In fact the idea I had was that Harley was actually Poison Ivy's psychiatrist at first and that's how they connected. One of the great things that I loved about their friendship in the animated series was that Harley was probably one of the only people that Poison Ivy cared about. I really want to give that more attention.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Please tell me what you think!

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I suppose everyone has seen the news.

Paul Reubens will be once again playing the Penguin's father, this time on "Gotham".

This is excellent news and demonstrates that the showrunners are paying some reverence to the Burton movies.

Who else from the earlier Batman movies should be brought back to play a part in "Gotham"?  Any suggestions?

I thought they were doing that before this. There seems to be a few nods to that.

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They took a stance against guns. Remember in BB, when he showed Rachel that he was going to kill Joe Chill with a gun, and she kept slapping him, and told him how disappointed his father would be, and then he threw it in the river and ran off to become Batman?

That seemed more about that he was going to kill him to me. The throwing it in the river just seemed like a character based thing to me as well.

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