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Written by Sam Hamm and drawn by artist Joe Quinones, this new comic book series promises the return of Pfeiffer's Catwoman, Bill Dee Williams' Two-Face and the debut of a new Robin. This more or less confirms the reports that the upcoming Keaton movie(s) will separate the Burtonverse from the Schumacherverse. The comic launches digitally on July 27th and will be published in chapters, followed by a hardback collection in October.

With filming on The Flash scheduled for spring and the new comic launching in summer, I think it's fair to say that the second era of the Burton Batman is about to begin!

https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=3291.msg63053#new (https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=3291.msg63053#new)

If it's just Hamm's script for Batman II, I'm gonna be very upset.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 21:05
Written by Sam Hamm and drawn by artist Joe Quinones, this new comic book series promises the return of Pfeiffer's Catwoman, Bill Dee Williams' Two-Face and the debut of a new Robin. This more or less confirms the reports that the upcoming Keaton movie(s) will separate the Burtonverse from the Schumacherverse. The comic launches digitally on July 27th and will be published in chapters, followed by a hardback collection in October.

With filming on The Flash scheduled for spring and the new comic launching in summer, I think it's fair to say that the second era of the Burton Batman is about to begin!

(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/a6UkMHASdyQvrkTFSAbHUC.jpg)

I don't mind us treating this like a new thread, and ignoring the old one (since ithis is finally happening).  I just wanted to get some credit for being the first with the scoop.  ;)

Hope the initial writer involved with the original proposal of a Batman '89 comic series gets a shot at doing what they proposed. Wish that this was more of an on-going series than a one-shot, starting with adapting Hamm's original screenplay before the rewrites.

Quote from: Kamdan on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 21:10
If it's just Hamm's script for Batman II, I'm gonna be very upset.

Judging from the press release, it won't be. They've confirmed it's going to feature Pfeiffer's version of Catwoman, not the one from Hamm's unused Batman II script. The fact Two-Face will appear also points to an original story.

The only thing Hamm might reuse from his Batman II script is the Robin storyline. There were three unused concepts for the Burton Robin: the one from the 1989 script that was meant to be played by Ricky Addison Reed, Hamm's Batman II version, and the Marlon Wayans version from Waters' BR script. Of the three, I think Hamm's Batman II version was the best, so I wouldn't object to him reusing some of that material.

My reaction to this and a Superman '78 comic, is exactly the same as it is for the ZSJL.


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(https://media.giphy.com/media/3rgXBARQON1OCltZ1C/giphy.gif)

March – Justice League Snyder Cut
April – filming starts on The Flash
June – Batman: Earth One Volume 3
July – Batman '89 #1

It's going to be an exciting spring and summer for Batman fans.  ;D

Nice  8)

This is the best news. Like Silver says, it all but confirms our man is coming back. A comic was something we wanted and believed to be the ultimate precursor to any Keaton return, and it's happening.

Anything that appears here will have to have been carefully considered as canon and elements will surely feature in Flashpoint, even if it's through minimal dialogue referencing the past.

I'm glad Quinones is attached to the project given his passion for Burton's Batman. It was crushing when the original pitch was declined, but having it as a combo with a live action return is perfect timing. It's all working out okay in the end for us. All those years of yearning, dreaming of something we thought to be long gone, contained to the late 80s/early90s. But now it's finally our time.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 22:30
Anything that appears here will have to have been carefully considered as canon and elements will surely feature in Flashpoint, even if it's through minimal dialogue referencing the past.

I wonder if we could also infer something about the actors reprising their roles in The Flash movie. When the B89 and BR comic adaptations came out, DC had to pay royalties to the actors whose likenesses they used. Could the return of the Burtonverse Catwoman and Two-Face in this comic, and presumably the use of their likenesses, also signify the actors returning in The Flash? Perhaps DC has secured permission to use their likenesses as part of a larger merchandising campaign for the new movie (action figures, posters, etc). I'm probably jumping the gun with this inference, but it's something to think about.

I'm glad they brought back Sam Hamm to write this rather than Daniel Waters, simply because Hamm has a proven track record working in the medium: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/sam-hamm/4040-41467/

I expect most fans have already read Blind Justice, but in case anyone here hasn't it's worth checking out.

Does anyone else think the building in the bottom right of the preview art looks like the one from Batman and Catwoman's first fight?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 21:05
Written by Sam Hamm and drawn by artist Joe Quinones, this new comic book series promises the return of Pfeiffer's Catwoman, Bill Dee Williams' Two-Face and the debut of a new Robin. This more or less confirms the reports that the upcoming Keaton movie(s) will separate the Burtonverse from the Schumacherverse. The comic launches digitally on July 27th and will be published in chapters, followed by a hardback collection in October.

With filming on The Flash scheduled for spring and the new comic launching in summer, I think it's fair to say that the second era of the Burton Batman is about to begin!

(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/a6UkMHASdyQvrkTFSAbHUC.jpg)

The return of Pfeiffer's Catwoman and finally getting the official story of how Harvey became Two-Face in that universe is so exciting! Question though, when it comes to Catwoman would you be more interested if Daniel Waters was co-writing since his version of Selina did differ from Hamm's version?

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 23:10
Question though, when it comes to Catwoman would you be more interested if Daniel Waters was co-writing since his version of Selina did differ from Hamm's version?

You raise an interesting point. One thing that Waters definitely did better than Hamm was his treatment of the Catwoman character. Hamm's take on Selina was very two-dimensional and unsympathetic compared to Waters' iconic version. I'm assuming Hamm will recognise this himself and stick with the established characterisation. I suppose they could bring Waters in as a consultant, but I don't think it's essential.

I'm surprised that DC hasn't called in Richard Donner to work on Superman '78, considering his past experience writing comics: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/richard-donner/4040-41948/

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 23:08
I wonder if we could also infer something about the actors reprising their roles in The Flash movie.

The thought crossed my mind. Michelle would be the biggest name they could get back, and she's up for it.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 23:08
I'm glad they brought back Sam Hamm to write this rather than Daniel Waters, simply because Hamm has a proven track record working in the medium: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/sam-hamm/4040-41467/

Having Hamm gives the project a sense of authenticity. I can believe this is canon with him on board. The aftermath of Returns makes this a proper project to be excited about. It's just a question as to how far into the future things go, or if it remains self contained to the 1990s without explicitly commenting on how things ended up with characters like Robin.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 23:08
Does anyone else think the building in the bottom right of the preview art looks like the one from Batman and Catwoman's first fight?

Looks very similar. The way they treat Gotham here will be very interesting. An amalgamation of both B89/BR versions?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 23:22
I'm surprised that DC hasn't called in Richard Donner to work on Superman '78, considering his past experience writing comics: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/richard-donner/4040-41948/

I notice the Superman project is remaining in the timeline of the original film, and not going past Superman II. That's the safe option because then the issue of Superman Returns is sidestepped. But I'm unsure just how much can be done within the timeline of Superman 78 in terms of villains and the like. The B89 comic has a lot more room to play with and moves forward. A continuation of Superman IV would've been a better idea.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 23:22
I'm surprised that DC hasn't called in Richard Donner to work on Superman '78, considering his past experience writing comics: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/richard-donner/4040-41948/

Yeah, perhaps there has been a conversation with Donner, going over ideas on where he would have liked to have taken the franchise if history would have played out differently. Although he collaborated with Geoff Johns back in, I think, 2006, I think a "story idea" credit for the Superman '78 comic might not be out of the realm of possibility here.

Oh, and yeah I definitely agree on Daniel Waters turning in a much more interesting Catwoman with his script than what Sam Hamm had initially came up with. That's for sure. As a writer, it can be seen as a challenge to adhere to someone else vision that is now fundamentally accepted as the Burtonverse version of Catwoman, but I think Hamm can and will rise up to that challenge with no problems whatsoever.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 23:22

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 23:10
Question though, when it comes to Catwoman would you be more interested if Daniel Waters was co-writing since his version of Selina did differ from Hamm's version?

You raise an interesting point. One thing that Waters definitely did better than Hamm was his treatment of the Catwoman character. Hamm's take on Selina was very two-dimensional and unsympathetic compared to Waters' iconic version. I'm assuming Hamm will recognise this himself and stick with the established characterisation. I suppose they could bring Waters in as a consultant, but I don't think it's essential.

I'm surprised that DC hasn't called in Richard Donner to work on Superman '78, considering his past experience writing comics: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/richard-donner/4040-41948/

Yeah I don't think it's essential either. That's one area that's a big question mark at the end of Returns. There are so many directions that you can take the Catwoman character after that film.

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 00:42

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 16 Feb  2021, 23:22
I'm surprised that DC hasn't called in Richard Donner to work on Superman '78, considering his past experience writing comics: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/richard-donner/4040-41948/

Yeah, perhaps there has been a conversation with Donner, going over ideas on where he would have liked to have taken the franchise if history would have played out differently. Although he collaborated with Geoff Johns back in, I think, 2006, I think a "story idea" credit for the Superman '78 comic might not be out of the realm of possibility here.

Oh, and yeah I definitely agree on Daniel Waters turning in a much more interesting Catwoman with his script than what Sam Hamm had initially came up with. That's for sure. As a writer, it can be seen as a challenge to adhere to someone else vision that is now fundamentally accepted as the Burtonverse version of Catwoman, but I think Hamm can and will rise up to that challenge with no problems whatsoever.

Idk if this was ever confirmed, but I remember hearing that he wanted Brainiac for Superman 3.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 00:48Idk if this was ever confirmed, but I remember hearing that he wanted Brainiac for Superman 3.

As did Ilya Salkind.

"The things we could've done together."
- Steve Jobs

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 01:02

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 00:48Idk if this was ever confirmed, but I remember hearing that he wanted Brainiac for Superman 3.

As did Ilya Salkind.

"The things we could've done together."
- Steve Jobs

Everytime someone has the intention of putting Brainiac in a sequel something bad happens that prevents it from happening.

I'm happy to see that this is bringing back the aesthetic of the 89 film. Gotham looks like Furst's designs.

Joe Quinones has recently shared some of his early character designs for Batman'89.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSDXEAUkqio?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSEWYAAIjrF?format=jpg&name=large)

Evidently, there's also was/is going to be a Batman Beyond inspired Jokerz in this continuation to the Burtonverse.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSGWYAMp14b?format=jpg&name=large)

I think that the fact that this is certainly going to be a costly endeavor is proof positive that this will be a tie in book used to promote the appearance of Keaton in the Flashpoint movie. The move to tap Hamm to write it as a limited series I think speaks to this as well. I am convinced that Pfeiffer has already been contacted for appearing. Anybody that is getting a check here probably has and it is possible Hamm may be acting as consultant to the project.  Barring any of that, I'm just tickled pink to have this series and do not care if I turn out to be wrong. Can't wait for the Hardcover. Will collect in every format.

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 01:40
Evidently, there's also was/is going to be a Batman Beyond inspired Jokerz in this continuation to the Burtonverse.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSGWYAMp14b?format=jpg&name=large)

I'm all for this and it could bear fruit in the future.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 26 Jun  2020, 15:24
The Jokerz would be fitting for a Burton film given B89 and BR both feature clown gangs.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 01:44
I am convinced that Pfeiffer has already been contacted for appearing. Anybody that is getting a check here probably has and it is possible Hamm may be acting as consultant to the project.

Good chance I think. Billy Dee appeared in TROS recently so he's not against such projects if he's offered. You'd expect him to jump at the opportunity and see it as unfinished business. 

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 01:40

Joe Quinones has recently shared some of his early character designs for Batman'89.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSDXEAUkqio?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSEWYAAIjrF?format=jpg&name=large)

Evidently, there's also was/is going to be a Batman Beyond inspired Jokerz in this continuation to the Burtonverse.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSGWYAMp14b?format=jpg&name=large)

You know Quinones is a huge fan of Burton's Batman when his design of underarmor Bruce Wayne resembles the Batman Returns action figure.

http://www.1989batman.com/2013/07/merchandise-spotlight-bruce-wayne.html?m=1

I love how adding a moustache on Michael Gough's Alfred gives him a strong resemblence to Alan Napier, and the character design of Prince as one of the Jokerz gang members is perfect.  8)

I hope we get to see these designs in the comic.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 02:11
and the character design of Prince as one of the Jokerz gang members is perfect.  8)

Exactly my thoughts as well.  :D

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 02:11You know Quinones is a huge fan of Burton's Batman when his design of underarmor Bruce Wayne resembles the Batman Returns action figure.

http://www.1989batman.com/2013/07/merchandise-spotlight-bruce-wayne.html?m=1

If you hadn't pointed that out, I would've had to.

But since you got there first, let me just add that the business suit Wayne strongly resembles Timm's OG BTAS design.

As to the characters, I can't be sure but likenesses could be a problem here. I doubt the likenesses could be obtained easily (or cheaply) from Keaton, Pfeiffer, Williams, Hingle's estate, Gough's estate, etc. So the costume designs, set designs, props, etc, will probably be all familiar. But don't be too surprised if the characters don't quite resemble their irl counterparts.

Andrew Marino put the teams together and tweeted he's "been keeping these under the hat for almost a year now."

He adds "every line is filled with so much joy and personality, it truly feels like I'm seeing Reeve or Keaton back in their worlds" and "they're giving everyone more of these characters that's so authentic and real."

This is Andy Khouri's last project as a DC staffer and confirmed "both the Burton films are canon. This takes place after Batman Returns." He told artist Joe Quinones "what you've done is beautiful, and it will be bought and read again and again forever."

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 05:13

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 02:11You know Quinones is a huge fan of Burton's Batman when his design of underarmor Bruce Wayne resembles the Batman Returns action figure.

http://www.1989batman.com/2013/07/merchandise-spotlight-bruce-wayne.html?m=1

If you hadn't pointed that out, I would've had to.

But since you got there first, let me just add that the business suit Wayne strongly resembles Timm's OG BTAS design.

Yeah, good pick-up on the business suit.

As Quinones noted in those early designs, the Batsuit takes some inspiration from BTAS with the glowing eyes and the inside of the cape being dark blue.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 05:13
As to the characters, I can't be sure but likenesses could be a problem here. I doubt the likenesses could be obtained easily (or cheaply) from Keaton, Pfeiffer, Williams, Hingle's estate, Gough's estate, etc. So the costume designs, set designs, props, etc, will probably be all familiar. But don't be too surprised if the characters don't quite resemble their irl counterparts.

Good point. When we were all talking about the original pitch back in 2016, I remember saying the issue over royalties might've stopped the project from going ahead. I predict Keaton's likeness will be used because from a marketing point of view, it makes too much sense now that he's returning for The Flash. But if Keaton asks too much in royalties, I could see Quinones draw Batman this way:

(https://13thdimension.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Screen-Shot-2021-02-14-at-11.14.48-AM.png)

https://13thdimension.com/13-great-illustrations-the-batman-89-art-of-joe-quinones/

It's not terrible, but it would be a downgrade. It would be a shame if he is prevented from drawing Keaton's Batman as accurately as possible.

Royalties could definitely be a problem with other parties. In that sense, Prince's likeness would have to be heavily redesigned or removed altogether, because I can only assume his estate would demand a very large fee.

Come to think of it, I'm taking another look at Alfred and there are noticeable differences from Michael Gough's features. If you look at the character design's profile carefully, it seems to incorporate some of Alan Napier's facial features, and even the hairstyle resembles Napier's. The only difference is this Alfred has a protruding chin, which Gough and Napier never had. If this design becomes final, maybe this helps avoid paying any royalties to Gough's estate?

Looking back at the Jokerz early designs again, and I love how many Easter eggs they have besides Prince. You've got the Mohawk guy on the far left wearing a Mutant visor from The Dark Knight Returns and a Joker goon jacket from B89. The twins resemble the Dee Dee twins from Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, carrying crowbars as a nod to The Killing Joke and wearing outfits resembling the ones that the Vicki Vale dancers wore in Prince's Batdance music video.

Even if these designs aren't final, I appreciate Quinones for putting so much attention to detail. If this is the sort of effort we can expect from him, the final product is going to be very exciting.

^Oh, and I forgot to mention, the second gang member to the left appears to be wearing Jack's jacket with the acid-spewing flower, but with the sleeves cut off.

I could look at these character designs all day. Love them!

I prefer things to look more like the movie. If they can't get Keaton's likeness, why bother with the comic.

So, In the the mode of a bitchy, entitled fan. Here are the things I want changed:

No lenses in the batsuit. Other than that, it looks great.

I want Bruce to look as much like Keaton as possible.

I prefer Alfred to look like Michael Gough.

I can't stress enough how important for me it is how Gotham city looks! (it's one of my top wants)
I want Gotham to be Anton Furst's designs, from both movie and comic. Use Bo Welch's designs when necessary. As for Wayne Manor, use Knebworth house.

That being said, I really like the designs shown here.  :)

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 01:40
Joe Quinones has recently shared some of his early character designs for Batman'89.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSDXEAUkqio?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSEWYAAIjrF?format=jpg&name=large)

Evidently, there's also was/is going to be a Batman Beyond inspired Jokerz in this continuation to the Burtonverse.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSGWYAMp14b?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: GBglide on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 02:09
No lenses in the batsuit. Other than that, it looks great.

In the context of a continuation I'm less stuffy about differences like this. The arsenal and suit changed between 1989 and 1992. It's logical to suspect that would have continued as the years progressed. Leaning on 1990s material like BTAS is fair given that's where the brand was back then. It's only when Schumacher took the reins did the tone change. The press release says the B89 comic will "continue the twisted adventures" and it references the "gothic mentality behind the world." So for now I'll trust they understand the brand they're working with.

Quote from: GBglide on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 02:09
I want Bruce to look as much like Keaton as possible.

I prefer Alfred to look like Michael Gough.

Same.

Quote from: GBglide on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 02:09
I can't stress enough how important for me it is how Gotham city looks! (it's one of my top wants)

The promo artwork gives me confidence in that regard.

Not sure what to think of the inclusion of Bullock.

Frankly, I don't need to see a variation on the established Batman mythos through a vaguely Burtonized lens. What I've wanted is some sort of continuation in the same vein as what Burton has already done. The idea of throwing in characters like Bullock, Robin, etc, is a risky move in my mind.

There are many comics where I'm willing to roll with the punches. But I will not go easy on anything that claims to be a continuation of the Burton movies. They're the ones reaching for the brass ring here. Not me. If they want to stand toe to toe with Burton then I have no choice but to evaluate their efforts on that level.

I just hope they're ready to deliver the goods.

I find the artwork shown quite promising, I was just giving a "Christmas List" of wants.

I'd like that they keep the Twisted Burtoness too.   I hope they use the one side black/one side white idea for Two face, that Burton had mentioned.
I'd also like to see a Poison Ivy that is just as bizarre as she sexy. I have some ideas that I should draw one day.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 02:32
In the context of a continuation I'm less stuffy about differences like this. The arsenal and suit changed between 1989 and 1992. It's logical to suspect that would have continued as the years progressed. Leaning on 1990s material like BTAS is fair given that's where the brand was back then. It's only when Schumacher took the reins did the tone change. The press release says the B89 comic will "continue the twisted adventures" and it references the "gothic mentality behind the world." So for now I'll trust they understand the brand they're working with.

Quote from: GBglide on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 02:09
I can't stress enough how important for me it is how Gotham city looks! (it's one of my top wants)

The promo artwork gives me confidence in that regard.

Me too.

Robin feels like a scary expansion because we've lived with the reality of Keaton being a solo operator in two films for 30 years. But it's not a foreign concept given there were plans to introduce him. So I'm okay with them introducing him for real, and the same is true for Billy Dee Williams as Two-Face. But Bulloch is someone I don't need in the Burtonverse because we had Eckhardt in the first film. My hope is they don't seek to correct perceived negatives of the Burtonverse too much, such as Batman and Gordon's limited engagement with one another.

I'm kind of wanting them to somehow try and integrate unused concepts into canon, such as the Batman shop selling merchandise, Batwing parts being stolen, or some treasure hunt scheme. I think that would go a way to making the product feel authentic, and make it somewhat satisfying these ideas finally see the light of day in some fashion.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 05:37
Robin feels like a scary expansion because we've lived with the reality of Keaton being a solo operator in two films for 30 years. But it's not a foreign concept given there were plans to introduce him. So I'm okay with them introducing him for real, and the same is true for Billy Dee Williams as Two-Face. But Bulloch is someone I don't need in the Burtonverse because we had Eckhardt in the first film. My hope is they don't seek to correct perceived negatives of the Burtonverse too much, such as Batman and Gordon's limited engagement with one another.

I'm kind of wanting them to somehow try and integrate unused concepts into canon, such as the Batman shop selling merchandise, Batwing parts being stolen, or some treasure hunt scheme. I think that would go a way to making the product feel authentic, and make it somewhat satisfying these ideas finally see the light of day in some fashion.

I know what you mean with Robin. Personally, I can't imagine the Keaton Batman ever letting someone else tag along. His version feels like a loner and that's an aspect that I've always liked about his take on the character. However, as you already mentioned there were always plans for him to get a Robin at some point. If Burton had made a third installment I doubt he could've kept Robin out of it for a third time.

I can take or leave Bullock personally. However, I am excited to see that Batman finally interact with the Hingle Gordon. I just hope that the characteristics of Keaton's Batman are intact. For example I hope they don't have him delivering speeches to people in the Batsuit, or having extended conversations with people.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 12:48
I know what you mean with Robin. Personally, I can't imagine the Keaton Batman ever letting someone else tag along. His version feels like a loner and that's an aspect that I've always liked about his take on the character. However, as you already mentioned there were always plans for him to get a Robin at some point. If Burton had made a third installment I doubt he could've kept Robin out of it for a third time.

I have no doubt some stuff in the B89 comic will feel strange because there's such a huge void to fill in the timeline following BR. But I do think there would've been a conscious effort to make room for Wayans in Batman 3. When Schumacher came on board the course of history changed. 30 years later it's finally being continued properly. The Schumacher films aren't abominations but I've never considered them to be pure Burtonverse continuity. There's some narrative carryover in Forever, but everybody knows it's not how things would've been with Keaton. I'm relieved the comic/Flashpoint creative team had the sense to seperate the two eras.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 12:48
I can take or leave Bullock personally. However, I am excited to see that Batman finally interact with the Hingle Gordon. I just hope that the characteristics of Keaton's Batman are intact. For example I hope they don't have him delivering speeches to people in the Batsuit, or having extended conversations with people.

I agree. However I admit it would be interesting to see some acknowledgment of BR's conclusion. Gordon noting that the Penguin played the city like a harp from Hell, and that Batman is absolutely someone they can trust. He had developed a track record, even if he's still not exactly a talkative public figure.

I've always thought of Eckhardt as the Burtonverse version of Bullock, or at least the corrupt early Pre Crisis version of the character.


Hamm tried introducing a less villainous Post Crisis take on Bullock (named 'Eddie Bullock') in his Batman II script. Eddie's function was basically to give Gordon someone to talk to and to hunt Batman after he was framed for Catwoman's crimes. With Dent becoming Two-Face in this comic, Gordon's going to need someone to bounce ideas off. Presumably that's why they're bringing in Bullock.

As for Robin – well, we're going to see Keaton's Batman fighting alongside a partner next year anyway when he teams up with Miller's Flash. Introducing a Burtonverse Robin in this comic might help fans acclimatise to seeing him work with a partner. I like how Hamm introduced Robin in his Batman II script, and if we get something along those lines here I'll be happy.

One of the things I'm looking forward to the most about this series is seeing Hamm's treatment of Two-Face. He's previously stated that the comic book Two-Face was an influence on the 1989 Joker, and we discussed those connections in some depth in the following thread: https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=264.90


In light of the Circe/Alicia connection, perhaps Hamm will finally reveal what really happened to Alicia. Did she throw herself out of a window, or is she still alive and performing as a masked dancer in Gotham's strip clubs like Circe did? 'Circe' could be Alicia's stage name. She might make an interesting companion for Dent following his disfigurement.

Hamm lay the foundations for his own version of Two-Face in the 1989 film, and now he's going to get the chance to fully realise his ideas in this new comic. He's got the benefit of later post-Burton Two-Face stories, such as Dent's Batman: The Animated Series episodes, The Long Halloween and The Dark Knight (2008), to draw inspiration from. If they get his dual personality right, then Billy Dee Williams' Two-Face has the potential to be one of the most interesting versions of the character. It'd be great if he played a prominent role in this comic before making a live action appearance in The Flash movie. Note that he isn't included among those early character designs, which suggests they're trying to keep his visual appearance under wraps.

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 01:40

Joe Quinones has recently shared some of his early character designs for Batman'89.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSDXEAUkqio?format=jpg&name=large)

This Batsuit really is a perfect fusion of the two Burton costumes. It's got the cowl, chest emblem and trousers of the BR suit, mixed with the upper body of the B89 suit. I hope Keaton wears something similar to this in The Flash.

Quinones uploaded new black and white sneak peaks of Batman.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuhfxEqWYAE9QTp?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuhfxErXEAUyYPu?format=jpg&name=medium)

I'm glad to see he is drawing the Batsuit as identical as his other artwork. This seems to confirm he will have white lens on the eyes too. I'm not complaining, it's unique visual detail in the comics.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 15:13
Hamm tried introducing a less villainous Post Crisis take on Bullock (named 'Eddie Bullock') in his Batman II script.

I forgot about that. I'm finding myself lenient to additions if they have some grounding in prior scripts.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 15:13
As for Robin – well, we're going to see Keaton's Batman fighting alongside a partner next year anyway when he teams up with Miller's Flash. Introducing a Burtonverse Robin in this comic might help fans acclimatise to seeing him work with a partner. I like how Hamm introduced Robin in his Batman II script, and if we get something along those lines here I'll be happy.

I'm excited about Keaton having a Robin, especially in the form of Wayans. I can't imagine his reaction if he was told about comic plans which may involve him. It's crazy he still receives residual checks, and those may be beefed up even more now. I'm totally up for a cameo in Flashpoint, especially if I like what they do with the comic. 

This piece of dialogue from the script from Robin would be good to splice into the comic: "You should've done it, man.  You should've killed her." Maybe put Batman in a position to kill Two-Face but have him declining. With Batman not responding, just standing there in silence. Leaving it open if he's evolving or simply sparing someone who became a friend.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 15:13
I've always thought of Eckhardt as the Burtonverse version of Bullock, or at least the corrupt early Pre Crisis version of the character.

(https://www.batman-online.com/features/1348606010_bullock.jpg)

Hamm tried introducing a less villainous Post Crisis take on Bullock (named 'Eddie Bullock') in his Batman II script. Eddie's function was basically to give Gordon someone to talk to and to hunt Batman after he was framed for Catwoman's crimes. With Dent becoming Two-Face in this comic, Gordon's going to need someone to bounce ideas off. Presumably that's why they're bringing in Bullock.

As for Robin – well, we're going to see Keaton's Batman fighting alongside a partner next year anyway when he teams up with Miller's Flash. Introducing a Burtonverse Robin in this comic might help fans acclimatise to seeing him work with a partner. I like how Hamm introduced Robin in his Batman II script, and if we get something along those lines here I'll be happy.

One of the things I'm looking forward to the most about this series is seeing Hamm's treatment of Two-Face. He's previously stated that the comic book Two-Face was an influence on the 1989 Joker, and we discussed those connections in some depth in the following thread: https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=264.90

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRdGqX3K/dc66a.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4dBKxzfj/dc66b.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/J0pxGDxM/circe-alicia-mask.png)

In light of the Circe/Alicia connection, perhaps Hamm will finally reveal what really happened to Alicia. Did she throw herself out of a window, or is she still alive and performing as a masked dancer in Gotham's strip clubs like Circe did? 'Circe' could be Alicia's stage name. She might make an interesting companion for Dent following his disfigurement.

Hamm lay the foundations for his own version of Two-Face in the 1989 film, and now he's going to get the chance to fully realise his ideas in this new comic. He's got the benefit of later post-Burton Two-Face stories, such as Dent's Batman: The Animated Series episodes, The Long Halloween and The Dark Knight (2008), to draw inspiration from. If they get his dual personality right, then Billy Dee Williams' Two-Face has the potential to be one of the most interesting versions of the character. It'd be great if he played a prominent role in this comic before making a live action appearance in The Flash movie. Note that he isn't included among those early character designs, which suggests they're trying to keep his visual appearance under wraps.

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 17 Feb  2021, 01:40

Joe Quinones has recently shared some of his early character designs for Batman'89.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX8WSDXEAUkqio?format=jpg&name=large)

This Batsuit really is a perfect fusion of the two Burton costumes. It's got the cowl, chest emblem and trousers of the BR suit, mixed with the upper body of the B89 suit. I hope Keaton wears something similar to this in The Flash.

I think Eckhart is more of a reference to something like Orson Welles in Touch of Evil than Bullock. I know people like to think that he's supposed to be this universes version of that character but I don't think so. Bullock didn't became a mainstay in the comics until late 1983, and Hamm wrote his first draft in 1986. I don't think Hamm would've considered putting a character that new into the script. I could be wrong though.

I actually just read the first Black Mask arc so now I finally understand who Circe is. There's definitely a similarity between her and Alicia. As for Alicia's death I do think she's dead. The only question I had was did she really commit suicide or did Joker kill her?

Seeing a lot of DCAU influence in here
-Bruce Waynes suit
- Gordons hair and stature
- The Jokers (with Dee Dee)

It's cool and it seems like we're going full circle in a lot of ways DCEU to Batman 89/Ben Affleck to Michael Keaton.

I also wonder if they're teasing around with the idea of white eyes for Flash? It's a future Batman (perhaps on the cusp of Beyond) and white eyes have been on the fan want list for a while now

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 18 Feb  2021, 22:14
Quinones uploaded new black and white sneak peaks of Batman.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuhfxEqWYAE9QTp?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuhfxErXEAUyYPu?format=jpg&name=medium)

I'm glad to see he is drawing the Batsuit as identical as his other artwork. This seems to confirm he will have white lens on the eyes too. I'm not complaining, it's unique visual detail in the comics.

Awestruck by the first image. Has anyone considered if Knox is coming back?

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Fri, 19 Feb  2021, 02:18
I also wonder if they're teasing around with the idea of white eyes for Flash? It's a future Batman (perhaps on the cusp of Beyond) and white eyes have been on the fan want list for a while now

Could be. I'm partial to the Kingdom Come power suit appearing in live action.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 19 Feb  2021, 03:13
Has anyone considered if Knox is coming back?

Wuhl appeared in the recent crossover event, so there's zero reason why he'd get cold feet now if asked back again. The news media is a focus in the Burtonverse, even in Returns when Vicki and Knox don't appear. Continuing that would be sensible.

It just dawned on me, if Hamm is writing this he's probably going to kill off Alexander Knox.  That would be a dealbreaker for me.  >:(

Quote from: GBglide on Fri, 19 Feb  2021, 21:33
It just dawned on me, if Hamm is writing this he's probably going to kill off Alexander Knox.  That would be a dealbreaker for me.  >:(

I know Knox was killed off in an earlier draft of B89, but from what I've read, Hamm doesn't really have much antipathy towards the character. Unlike Daniel Waters, who wanted to bring him back just to kill him off.

Oh, it was Waters that wanted to kill him off in Batman Returns? I thought it was Hamm in Batman II.
Actually that's a relief.

Quinones added a couple of new black and white teases of Batman.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eu9M3AsVcAEbszB?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eu9NPGPWgAoS3b8?format=jpg&name=large)

https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1364393723556229120

Quote from: GBglide on Fri, 19 Feb  2021, 21:33
It just dawned on me, if Hamm is writing this he's probably going to kill off Alexander Knox.  That would be a dealbreaker for me.  >:(

I'm not worried about him being bumped off, at least yet.

The comic is called Batman '89, so it would be a real shame to remove an original character from the universe given the potential he offers. He was there from the beginning and would have seen so much over the years. If handled correctly his importance would only grow.

This tease is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EutY0ruXUAET3Ed?format=jpg&name=large)

An old Oswald campaign poster stuck on a street wall serving as a haunting echo from days gone by. Small touches like that create authenticity, and it's the most exciting thing I've seen so far.

Here is a nice little Easter egg of the Harvey Dent DA poster from B89. Foreshadowing many things to come.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvGkyp-WgAcswrb?format=jpg&name=large)

https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1365053356109103112

Quinones shared another sneak peak of Keaton's Batman.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvqRZqnXcAQWuYR?format=jpg&name=large)

I'm convinced the Batman '89 comics will use the actors' likenesses. It will be great.

So the BR Batsymbol?

Quote from: Travesty on Sat,  6 Mar  2021, 01:34
So the BR Batsymbol?

I'm glad they made this choice as it feels like a natural continuation. Batman perfected the logo by the time of BR and going back to the B89 design would be a regression.

It seems we're definitely going to see Michael Gough's Alfred again.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ev_mnPtWYAIzrCF?format=jpg&name=large)

Here is the Batmobile and yet another look at Batman.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ev_nD2WWgAARieU?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwANedfWgAIGC4E?format=jpg&name=large)

https://www.twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1369066378884431873

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue,  9 Mar  2021, 07:30
It seems we're definitely going to see Michael Gough's Alfred again.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ev_mnPtWYAIzrCF?format=jpg&name=large)

Here is the Batmobile and yet another look at Batman.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ev_nD2WWgAARieU?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwANedfWgAIGC4E?format=jpg&name=large)

https://www.twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1369066378884431873

Was worried about Al. I noticed that in the character mock ups he...well rhymed with Gough, but was not actually Gough. Hingle has a similar issue. Understandably, I know. Likenesses cost money. Nice to see this image is closer.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue,  9 Mar  2021, 07:30
It seems we're definitely going to see Michael Gough's Alfred again.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ev_mnPtWYAIzrCF?format=jpg&name=large)

Here is the Batmobile and yet another look at Batman.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ev_nD2WWgAARieU?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwANedfWgAIGC4E?format=jpg&name=large)

https://www.twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1369066378884431873

Based on where the Batmobile is parked, it looks like they'll use the 89 Batcave.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Tue,  9 Mar  2021, 19:17
Based on where the Batmobile is parked, it looks like they'll use the 89 Batcave.

Through nostalgia and design it's the most mystical looking cave in the series, and it's what I'd want to see in Flashpoint. Gough's likeness is pretty accurate. The moustache is probably a compromise but it's not unrealistic for somebody to grow one. All in all, I'm happy with how this is shaping up.

Oooo pretty...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ewph-l9WEAMAKyk?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed, 17 Mar  2021, 16:54
Oooo pretty...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ewph-l9WEAMAKyk?format=jpg&name=large)

Interesting. Looks like BR pants with a BR symbol but otherwise a B89 tunic.

Unexpected.

Seems like Batman mixes and matches his wardrobe like everyone else. We see him selecting his gear from the vault in Returns. It's not unbelievable that older gear is still available and he chooses what he wants at the time.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwtSJGtXAAQcr9X?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu, 18 Mar  2021, 19:17
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwtSJGtXAAQcr9X?format=jpg&name=large)

The more I see the more excited I become. I like Batman is all settings - solo or League. But this is where it all started, and I love it when he's the sole focus.

Some wonderful toys.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExbY9atXEAE41U2?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExHTNDnWgAcxHqf?format=jpg&name=medium)

The merging of the B89/BR aesthetics continues with the BR remote control batarang and the B89 grapnel gun. With all that said I'm hoping the BR chest logo remains fixed in place.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExdF8i3WUAEU4-y?format=jpg&name=large)

Also, it might be worth mentioning that over on Wilfredo Torres' (Superman 78' artist) twitter, we have this little thing.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExtD5t8XAAM_Iz2?format=jpg&name=large)

(bottom left) ;)

The first detail I'm unsure about. But here's the thing: if Keaton is coming back, it's in the context of a Flashpoint movie. The multiverse is being introduced into the Burtonverse. If we want him back, that's how it's got to be. But I would rather the comics be focused primarily on Keaton, especially in the events immediately following Returns.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExxusdgVoAgWyBM?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex1zciJW8AIYOgh?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu, 18 Mar  2021, 19:17
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwtSJGtXAAQcr9X?format=jpg&name=large)

I love the leaves.  8)

The synopsis also says "Batman '89 is set in a truly gothic Gotham City and features colorful villains including The Joker, Two-Face, and many more." Are we about to see Nicholson's Joker resurrected? Could very well be the case. And the promise of "many more" villains makes me wonder who they'll be. Catwoman seems likely. Based on nothing I feel Poison Ivy could be possible.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  1 Apr  2021, 02:23
The synopsis also says "Batman '89 is set in a truly gothic Gotham City and features colorful villains including The Joker, Two-Face, and many more." Are we about to see Nicholson's Joker resurrected? Could very well be the case. And the promise of "many more" villains makes me wonder who they'll be. Catwoman seems likely. Based on nothing I feel Poison Ivy could be possible.

I hope Joker doesn't come back.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu,  1 Apr  2021, 02:26

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  1 Apr  2021, 02:23
The synopsis also says "Batman '89 is set in a truly gothic Gotham City and features colorful villains including The Joker, Two-Face, and many more." Are we about to see Nicholson's Joker resurrected? Could very well be the case. And the promise of "many more" villains makes me wonder who they'll be. Catwoman seems likely. Based on nothing I feel Poison Ivy could be possible.

I hope Joker doesn't come back.

Groundwork has been laid for the idea. It would really depend on how they explained it.

Our first tease for Max Shrek's erstwhile personal assistant.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex6CAtlXIAEOaUZ?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex6CAtlXMAEMIIa?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex7BZMaWgAMtqzL?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyLjZ13WYAYAHDS?format=jpg&name=medium)

It seems that the conceptual we saw in February has been officially confirmed as Bruce Wayne's look for the series. It is most interesting how much gray is in Bruce's hair. What's more is the return of the glasses. No more, it seems, are they for weakening eyes during batcave study. They now seem to be a permanent part of Bruce's day to day look. I'm curious how many years have passed since RETURNS. Batman seems to be still active, so I can't imagine the time jump is too severe, but enough to stress that time is passing, and passes much more freely than in typical comic book continuities where Spider-Man is still 26. Worth noting, of course, that the Earth-89 Batman was not a young man when he started. Keaton was in his late thirties when he did 89, and was at least 40 when they did Returns.

Maybe that's why Robin is being introduced. We may have a Batman who looks to be nearing 50, and whose nightly exploits have accelerated some of the aging process. Robin may be a sidekick who is being groomed as an eventual replacement.

First thought: Keaton's Bruce didn't have that type of muscular build.

I'm cool with him wearing glasses. I always liked him doing so, and that goes for Kilmer. Forever had Kilmer wearing them during the Wayne Enterprises sequences and generally out and about as a more permanent fixture. I'm okay with a time jump of some kind because it seems a logical way to reveal a wider range of villains, and to show the changes Bruce and the world went through. But only if the period after Returns is adequately addressed. 

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  1 Apr  2021, 02:23
The synopsis also says "Batman '89 is set in a truly gothic Gotham City and features colorful villains including The Joker, Two-Face, and many more." Are we about to see Nicholson's Joker resurrected? Could very well be the case. And the promise of "many more" villains makes me wonder who they'll be. Catwoman seems likely. Based on nothing I feel Poison Ivy could be possible.

Ehh.. hope its just Nicholson's Joker appearing in flashbacks and/or nightmares Bruce may  be dealing with in the story arc. This along with the Burtonverse Jokerz gang keeps Nicholson's Joker's presence palpable, without actually resurrecting him.

If a merging of the DCAU's Batman Beyond Return of the Joker and Burton's Batman transpires for a live action film, Nicholson's Joker resurrected should be held off until then. Makes it more impactful and all that jazz.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyZcKjlW8AcXIqR?format=jpg&name=medium)

I'm getting to the stage where I don't want to see any more from this. It's looking pretty good but I think the artist has shown enough now.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  9 Apr  2021, 00:39
I'm getting to the stage where I don't want to see any more from this. It's looking pretty good but I think the artist has shown enough now.

Esp when the comic isn't even coming out until July.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ez_nP4XXIAUnhsw?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ez_z3TzXoAgC0nb?format=jpg&name=large)

It looks like Bruce finally figured out how to use those gravity boots.

I like that he's taken a B89 visual concept (Bruce hanging upside down after sleeping with Vicki) and expanded upon it. Visually everything has a nice atmosphere. The B89 suit vault is unbeatable in its design, too. It fascinated me as a kid. How imposing and heavy the door was, looking as if it belongs in a submarine. Something so heavy duty raised the importance of the suit within.

I guess this is probably a no-go for me.
As Batman it looks ok.
Bruce Wayne really doesn't look like Keaton to me. He's just too square jawed.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4067.0;attach=515;image)

Things like Bruce looking off and Alfred with a mustache, seems like the artist is trying to give the feeling of these characters while avoiding using their likeness.
Like it's just enough to avoid paying royalties to the actors/estates.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 27 Apr  2021, 19:50
I like that he's taken a B89 visual concept (Bruce hanging upside down after sleeping with Vicki) and expanded upon it. Visually everything has a nice atmosphere. The B89 suit vault is unbeatable in its design, too. It fascinated me as a kid. How imposing and heavy the door was, looking as if it belongs in a submarine. Something so heavy duty raised the importance of the suit within.

Last year I was introduced to a term I'd not heard before: dieselpunk. Just as steampunk is a retrofuturistic aesthetic derived from the technology of the Victorian era, so dieselpunk is retrofuturism derived from the technology of the interwar period. Articles on the subject specifically cite the 1989 Batman film as an example of dieselpunk cinema. Other examples include the films Brazil (1985), The Rocketeer (1991), Dark City (1998), Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (2004) and the classic Indiana Jones trilogy, as well as videogames such as BioShock (2007) and the Wolfenstein, Command & Conquer and Killzone series. Here are some examples of diselpunk art.


It's essential that both the new B89 comic and Flash movie capture this diselpunk aesthetic if they want to successfully evoke the world of the Burtonverse.

Quote from: GBglide on Wed, 28 Apr  2021, 03:46
I guess this is probably a no-go for me.
As Batman it looks ok.
Bruce Wayne really doesn't look like Keaton to me. He's just too square jawed.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4067.0;attach=515;image)

Things like Bruce looking off and Alfred with a mustache, seems like the artist is trying to give the feeling of these characters while avoiding using their likeness.
Like it's just enough to avoid paying royalties to the actors/estates.

So far I like everything I've seen and heard about this comic. I want this to be a progression from the Burton films, not just a nostalgic retread. Burton completely revamped stately Wayne Manor and Gotham City in Batman Returns, and I think it's safe to assume there would have been just as many visual changes had he directed a third film. Perhaps Michael Gough would have grown a moustache.


Perhaps Michael Keaton would have hit the gym harder like he did when he trained for Desperate Measures (which despite being released in 1998 was actually shot in 1996).


By giving him a more muscular build and square jaw, Quinones is really just doing what the costume department tried to do in the original movies. They had him wear polo necks and put a chin strap in his cowl in an attempt to accentuate his jaw line. They also dressed him in broad-shouldered suits and coats to give his physique a more tapered and heavily-built look.


The only time they showed him shirtless (the closest thing the Burton films had to a 'validation scene') was when he was hanging from the gravity boots, and even then they shot him from behind while he was flexing his lats, with strategic lighting used to try and increase his muscle definition.


The Batman Returns comic adaptation also gave him a stronger jaw and more muscular physique.


In real life Keaton might be a 160lb everyman, but in-universe his Bruce Wayne is meant to be a badass whose kicks are strong enough to send criminals flying through the air, and whose punches are powerful enough to rip through the floor of the Batmobile. Quinones' depiction is consistent with that idea, and to my eyes his drawings of Bruce still strongly resemble Keaton. Just a more idealised version of him. Personally, I don't have a problem with that. But to each his own.

I can't wait to read the first issue. :)

if an in universe explanation helps, his routine and diet might possibly lead to Bruce putting on weight as he ages. He turns it to muscle, but he starts to carry more because he does not metabolize the same. You could even see it as a lean towards a TDKR future, since Bruce looks to be what comic book aesthetic defines as late 40s-early 50s here. I do think Robin will be a young man and be depicted as someone who will eventually need to take up the mantle. Bruce getting older does seem to be something the book wants you to know.

But, Nemesis is on the money here. It's all about creating the illusion

Thanks for your well thought out responses to my post. But for me it's all about nostalgia. The farther it diverges from the '89 movie the more it just might as well just be a regular Batman comic, and there are already plenty of those.

Quote from: GBglide on Wed, 28 Apr  2021, 18:07
Thanks for your well thought out responses to my post. But for me it's all about nostalgia. The farther it diverges from the '89 movie the more it just might as well just be a regular Batman comic, and there are already plenty of those.

Yo.

Of all Batman forums, I rly don't think anybody here will go easy on this comic book if it doesn't deliver the goods. Like you, I want something that feels like it could be a continuation of Burton's films. I don't particularly want the existing Batman mythos filtered through a Burton aesthetic. Any idiot can do that. I'd prefer something that feels like it could pick up where Burton left off.

Quote from: GBglide on Wed, 28 Apr  2021, 18:07
Thanks for your well thought out responses to my post. But for me it's all about nostalgia. The farther it diverges from the '89 movie the more it just might as well just be a regular Batman comic, and there are already plenty of those.

I understand your apprehension because we all want this to work out. But I see a lot of nostalgia in the previews. They've chosen the B89 cave and brought back elements of the suit, which is already more than the heavy aesthetic deviation of Returns. Which I don't have a problem with, but facts are facts. If something doesn't feel like a genuine continuation I will call it out. But at the same time I don't want to be reading B89 or BR clones with slight deviations.

Keaton's Batman wouldn't have just fought Joker and Penguin. More bad guys would have appeared: we just didn't see them. Bruce did get older and experience problems associated with that. We just didn't see it. And so on and so forth. It is important the Burton tone remains through these plot points. But if they can do that, bring it all on. It's our chance to fill in a huge void and unfreeze time.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 28 Apr  2021, 18:56

Quote from: GBglide on Wed, 28 Apr  2021, 18:07
Thanks for your well thought out responses to my post. But for me it's all about nostalgia. The farther it diverges from the '89 movie the more it just might as well just be a regular Batman comic, and there are already plenty of those.

Yo.

Of all Batman forums, I rly don't think anybody here will go easy on this comic book if it doesn't deliver the goods. Like you, I want something that feels like it could be a continuation of Burton's films. I don't particularly want the existing Batman mythos filtered through a Burton aesthetic. Any idiot can do that. I'd prefer something that feels like it could pick up where Burton left off.

Batman '89 is the only DC-related property I have faith in, at the moment. Quinones has demonstrated to have lots of love for Burton's Batman, and Hamm's involvement gives it credibility. I'm very confident this comic limited series will capture the spirit of the Burton world without coming across as contrived.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0KspN8WYAIuMYj?format=jpg&name=medium)

Take my money.

Oddly enough, I never stopped to consider what Bruce might have done with Miss Kitty following the events of Batman Returns.


It's rather sweet to think that he and Alfred gave her a home and took care of her.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 30 Apr  2021, 14:48
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0KspN8WYAIuMYj?format=jpg&name=medium)

I do like that he still has "Ms. Kitty" from the end of Batman Returns.  8)

Quote from: GBglide on Fri, 30 Apr  2021, 18:38

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 30 Apr  2021, 14:48
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0KspN8WYAIuMYj?format=jpg&name=medium)

I do like that he still has "Ms. Kitty" from the end of Batman Returns.  8)

Same here.

As a kid watching Batman Forever, and being that there was a reference about Catwoman stated by Chase, I did kinda wonder whatever happened to the cat, Ms. Kitty, but I don't think I ever really lingered on that question too much as I just accepted it as something that was probably overlooked. Hell, given that I initially thought, in 1995, a actual Man-Bat sequence was left on the cutting room floor of "Batman Forever" (thanks to the trailers), I may have very well thought the same about a possible Ms. Kitty cameo just as well?

Another cat I remembering wondering about during this time frame, was the Cat from the Sly Stallone movie, "The Specialist". Sure, it's a guilty pleasure movie, and not one of Stallone's best movies, but I've always liked it a lot ever since I first saw it way back when. Prime sly. Prime Sharon Stone. Eric Roberts. Rod Steiger, and James Woods plays a incredibly fun and highly entertaining villain! Getting back to the point, Sly adopts a stray cat near the beginning of the movie (Trigger the cat I think ...?), and we see the cat escape with Sly and Sharon during the explosions sequence near the end of the film, however, the cat is no where to be seen with Sly and Sharon as they drive off into the sunset at the end. Like, WTF? Did the cat become a stray again, or maybe in the trunk?!?

Anyways, glad one of these cat mysteries is being acknowledged/resolved.  ;D

While we're on the subject, I'd like to know what happened to Jones from the first two Alien movies. He survived the Nostromo massacre only to be left behind on Gateway Station when Ripley returned to LV-426. Who took care of him after that?

That's a nice touch. Like with John Wick and his dog, Bruce having the cat demonstrates his compassionate side and could ultimately be the link to getting Selina back.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 30 Apr  2021, 22:51
While we're on the subject, I'd like to know what happened to Jones from the first two Alien movies. He survived the Nostromo massacre only to be left behind on Gateway Station when Ripley returned to LV-426. Who took care of him after that?

Yeah, I like Jones' last scene where Ripley tells him he's staying "here" (as in Earth), with him just kinda looking at her. I believe in the novelization of Alien 3, there is a passage where Ripley thinks of Jones the Cat at some point while on the prison planet, but soon after realizes that so much time has passed that Jones the Cat would be, unfortunately, deceased at that point.

I would like to think that, perhaps, a possible son/daughter/grand kid of Amanda Ripley might have taken Jones the Cat in? I know there wasn't much of a relationship between Ripley and Amanda, but Jones would certainly make for an interesting conversational adoption for someone in Amanda's family.

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  1 May  2021, 00:20I would like to think that, perhaps, a possible son/daughter/grand kid of Amanda Ripley might have taken Jones the Cat in? I know there wasn't much of a relationship between Ripley and Amanda, but Jones would certainly make for an interesting conversational adoption for someone in Amanda's family.

I choose to accept this as canon, which makes Jones the only member of the Nostromo crew to die a natural death. I like to think he lived a long and happy life and became extremely fat from being pampered and overfed by Ripley's descendants.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun,  2 May  2021, 13:58
I choose to accept this as canon, which makes Jones the only member of the Nostromo crew to die a natural death. I like to think he lived a long and happy life and became extremely fat from being pampered and overfed by Ripley's descendants.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/22/article-0-1521E41C000005DC-404_634x286.jpg)

(https://us.123rf.com/450wm/mivgor/mivgor2002/mivgor200200026/140460870-bro-fist-bump-or-power-five-pound-flat-vector-icon-for-apps-and-websites.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0rUWlRXsAU98rE?format=jpg&name=large)

Some have mentioned that this looks like an evidence locker. The tag certainly looks like it. I guessed it could also be a hint that we will finally see the Batman store.

Batwing parts were recovered in one of the BR scripts. It's feasible Batman run into trouble, discarded his cowl for whatever reason and it was recovered by Police or used for sale. Lots of ideas are running around with these previews, though. That's a good sign.

Considering the TAS influences, I wonder if we'll see a Phantasm-style police chase?

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat,  8 May  2021, 00:51
Considering the TAS influences, I wonder if we'll see a Phantasm-style police chase?

I think there's a good chance we will. Hamm wrote a similar scene in his Batman II script where Bruce was being pursued by the police through Gotham's central park. He eluded the cops by tying his cape and cowl to the pommel of a horse to create a diversion. It was immediately after this, while Bruce was unmasked, that he first encountered Robin. I'd be happy for Hamm to reuse this scene in the B89 comic.

Me too. If an idea was floated back in the day it's possible it would've been recycled later. The Bond movies did it frequently. Even if it's not Robin he meets or rescues him, but Selina. That would evoke The Mask of the Phantasm. Imagine if she brought him back to her apartment, or the new place where she happens to be living. Either option (meeting Robin or Selina) would be fine with me if Keaton found himself on the run.

Definitely a piece of evidence.

I'm thinking they are definitely referencing the Knox deleted scene as canon. 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1Jhx12XoAAnDBL?format=jpg&name=large)

Maybe not a big deal, but I see a detective with lady fingers. I'm thinking rookie Barbara, who may be a plant in the story in case they ever decide to turn it into an ongoing thing. Or Montoya?

Batman is presumed to be a criminal after the batarang is found stained in the Ice Princess' blood. We're led to believe his name is cleared when the signal is turned on at the end. But perhaps it's not so cut and dried and segments of the GCPD didn't feel the same way as Gordon? An order could still be out for Batman's arrest. Similar to the stance of Gordon in 2008's TDK: "If you got problems with malfunctioning equipment, I suggest you take them up with Maintenance, counselor."

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 13 May  2021, 00:44
Batman is presumed to be a criminal after the batarang is found stained in the Ice Princess' blood. We're led to believe his name is cleared when the signal is turned on at the end. But perhaps it's not so cut and dried and segments of the GCPD didn't feel the same way as Gordon? An order could still be out for Batman's arrest. Similar to the stance of Gordon in 2008's TDK: "If you got problems with malfunctioning equipment, I suggest you take them up with Maintenance, counselor."

Sounds like a likely scenario, what with Bullock being brought in. Batman being a killer in this universe certainly gives Harvey a much better footing as a character, too. Maybe he's leading a task force. The once publicly endorsed Batman now faces the other side.

If not Knox though, I am curious how the GCPD got that cowl and emblem. Maybe they nab it during the comic. Batman Unmasked! Could be a lovely thing that Catwoman could needle him with, being on the same side of the law now.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu, 13 May  2021, 14:42
Sounds like a likely scenario, what with Bullock being brought in. Batman being a killer in this universe certainly gives Harvey a much better footing as a character, too. Maybe he's leading a task force. The once publicly endorsed Batman now faces the other side.

Batman Forever referenced an evolution of Bruce's character several times. The B89 series seems like a ripe opportunity to comment on Keaton Batman's status as a crimefighter. Has he turned his back on lethal methods? Kilmer's Bruce used Chase to help heal his psyche. I like the idea Bruce and Selina work through their issues as kindred spirits, rather than leaving Selina's whereabouts unresolved ala the Schumacherverse. Bruce awkwardly asking Selina to come over and pick up her cat seems a good excuse as any to reunite.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu, 13 May  2021, 14:42
If not Knox though, I am curious how the GCPD got that cowl and emblem. Maybe they nab it during the comic. Batman Unmasked! Could be a lovely thing that Catwoman could needle him with, being on the same side of the law now.

If the equipment retrieval occurred during B89, the Knox deleted scene being canon makes the most sense. The GCPD's stance on Batman at that point had changed for the better, but they would have kept the items nonetheless. I don't where else it could have occurred otherwise. The other option is Batman began using the B89 emblem again after Returns.

Old picture, but re-released without cropping.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1sB9P7XoAInI6u?format=jpg&name=medium)

Looks...weird?

Now in living color.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E18xVQqWQAI8GnB?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2IAvxVXIAAjXbi?format=jpg&name=large)

Cover art sneak peak. Variant cover by Jerry Ordway

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2U4zgZWYAUvRkE?format=jpg&name=large)

Aside from the awful blue cowl, I like it.

Also bad news. The release schedule has completely changed. Batman '89 #1 will NOT be digital first and will now be released at the same time as print on August 10th. No chapters or weekly releases now. One issue per month. The hardcover edition will be released July 5, 2022.  2022...

Not at happy camper right now.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed, 26 May  2021, 15:59
Also bad news. The release schedule has completely changed. Batman '89 #1 will NOT be digital first and will now be released at the same time as print on August 10th. No chapters or weekly releases now. One issue per month. The hardcover edition will be released July 5, 2022.  2022...

Not at happy camper right now.

If nothing else, that tells us they've got big plans for this series.

That Bill Dee Two-Face looks good.  8)

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 26 May  2021, 19:45

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed, 26 May  2021, 15:59
Also bad news. The release schedule has completely changed. Batman '89 #1 will NOT be digital first and will now be released at the same time as print on August 10th. No chapters or weekly releases now. One issue per month. The hardcover edition will be released July 5, 2022.  2022...

Not at happy camper right now.

If nothing else, that tells us they've got big plans for this series.

Yeah, and I was knee jerking there. Still an impatient fanboy when I want to be.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2W1cQNWQAAcs1O?format=jpg&name=900x900)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2XBI8vXwAQ_M7f?format=jpg&name=large)

So I guess that's Marlon Wayans' Robin?

Quote from: Travesty on Thu, 27 May  2021, 14:42
So I guess that's Marlon Wayans' Robin?

Unless Robin is wearing nylons on his arms or something I do believe Robin is indeed of color.

So I guess the Schumacher universe isn't continuity to this, at all?

Quote from: Travesty on Thu, 27 May  2021, 20:16
So I guess the Schumacher universe isn't continuity to this, at all?

Nope. Keaton's duo of films is officially separating from Schumacher's. This is going to be a re-origin of Two Face as Billy Dee.

Despite this sudden resurgence of all things Burtonverse, we are yet to hear anything from the director himself. I expect he will write up a foreword in the hardcover edition.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2rLe_-WYAAiepa?format=jpg&name=medium)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed,  2 Jun  2021, 13:24
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2rLe_-WYAAiepa?format=jpg&name=medium)

I'm curious what the psychology behind the coin will be. I read Long Halloween for the first time last year. As good as the book is, I was surprised that there wasn't really a reason given for Harvey's obsession with the coin or chance.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed, 26 May  2021, 15:54
Aside from the awful blue cowl, I like it.

I'm taking a stab in the dark with a Predator wristblade and saying it's a reflection from the sky. At least that's what I'd like it to be.

Synopsis for issue one:

Gotham becomes torn in two as citizens dressed as Batman and The Joker duke it out in the streets. As D.A. Harvey Dent tries to keep the city together, he targets the one problem tearing it apart: BATMAN! And he'll get Bruce Wayne's help in taking down the Dark Knight!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E27FaG3XIAEl99H?format=jpg&name=medium)

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  3 Jun  2021, 13:24

Synopsis for issue one:

Gotham becomes torn in two as citizens dressed as Batman and The Joker duke it out in the streets. As D.A. Harvey Dent tries to keep the city together, he targets the one problem tearing it apart: BATMAN! And he'll get Bruce Wayne's help in taking down the Dark Knight!

Sooooooo...it's just TDK?

Quote from: Travesty on Thu,  3 Jun  2021, 16:14

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  3 Jun  2021, 13:24

Synopsis for issue one:

Gotham becomes torn in two as citizens dressed as Batman and The Joker duke it out in the streets. As D.A. Harvey Dent tries to keep the city together, he targets the one problem tearing it apart: BATMAN! And he'll get Bruce Wayne's help in taking down the Dark Knight!

Sooooooo...it's just TDK?

As much as I love The Dark Knight, I thought they could've gone even further with the whole copy cat Batman idea. I like the idea of there being copy cat Joker's as well.

Definitely getting some Forever fibes with this one. Definitely a final act suit kind of thing. Perhaps some correlation with Flash?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3Cv81tX0AE-6QQ?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri,  4 Jun  2021, 15:12
Definitely getting some Forever fibes with this one. Definitely a final act suit kind of thing. Perhaps some correlation with Flash?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3Cv81tX0AE-6QQ?format=jpg&name=large)

Definite Forever vibes. Tbh not a fan of the cape and cowl being disconnected on a Keaton Bat-Suit.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3DkkQGX0AIP9Wh?format=jpg&name=large)

Burton continuity is seperate from Schumacher continuity, but I think it's logical to assume the 1990s aesthetic would have been persuasive even if Burton remained director. Taking inspiration from that time period is a good thing because it helps make the product feel more authentic, rather than taking a more contemporary approach.

I think I'm okay with there being other suit vaults. The Batman of B89 and BR was competent but still very much in the early years of his career. It's possible we'll see the batcave modified with different walkways too, which could help demonstrate the passage of time. I want a B89 experience but it shouldn't be about keeping things exactly as they are.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  4 Jun  2021, 23:52
Burton continuity is seperate from Schumacher continuity, but I think it's logical to assume the 1990s aesthetic would have been persuasive even if Burton remained director. Taking inspiration from that time period is a good thing because it helps make the product feel more authentic, rather than taking a more contemporary approach.

I think I'm okay with there being other suit vaults. The Batman of B89 and BR was competent but still very much in the early years of his career. It's possible we'll see the batcave modified with different walkways too, which could help demonstrate the passage of time. I want a B89 experience but it shouldn't be about keeping things exactly as they are.

This.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu, 27 May  2021, 15:53

Quote from: Travesty on Thu, 27 May  2021, 14:42
So I guess that's Marlon Wayans' Robin?

Unless Robin is wearing nylons on his arms or something I do believe Robin is indeed of color.

I'm happy about that. It was the original intention and anything else wouldn't feel authentic to me.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3PZbBdXIAYsZcV?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3PZbBfXEAEXDkj?format=jpg&name=medium)

Teases for covers. In the first image it occurs to me that the cops have a lot of Batman's stuff. I can see the grapple gun (or is that the Returns line launcher?)in a bag on the left, and is that part of the batmobile I see on the right? Definitely shades of a Batman task force

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon,  7 Jun  2021, 14:50
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3PZbBdXIAYsZcV?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3PZbBfXEAEXDkj?format=jpg&name=medium)

Teases for covers. In the first image it occurs to me that the cops have a lot of Batman's stuff. I can see the grapple gun (or is that the Returns line launcher?)in a bag on the left, and is that part of the batmobile I see on the right? Definitely shades of a Batman task force

I wondered if cops were in the Batcave bagging evidence.

I don't know how a batcave intrusion by the GCPD would work without completely compromising Bruce's secret and thus war on crime. The Batmobile shed its sides when it transformed into the Batmissile, which makes recovery of those pieces completely plausible. When using a grapnel gun to cross over to the building where the Ice Princess was being held, Batman leaves the device and simply keeps walking onwards, meaning that could have also been recovered by Police.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  8 Jun  2021, 00:19
I don't know how a batcave intrusion by the GCPD would work without completely compromising Bruce's secret and thus war on crime. The Batmobile shed its sides when it transformed into the Batmissile, which makes recovery of those pieces completely plausible. When using a grapnel gun to cross over to the building where the Ice Princess was being held, Batman leaves the device and simply keeps walking onwards, meaning that could have also been recovered by Police.

It could be likened to the covers that depict the hero's death as a tease that never happens. Maybe it just means that this one detective finds out or not at all as inside the issue this moment seems to be happening at GCPD.

The synopsis says Harvey will "get Bruce Wayne's help in taking down The Dark Knight." Which leads me to ask is Bruce being summoned, or is he volunteering? Either way, cooperating with the investigation helps Bruce publicly seperate himself from Batman, and allows him the opportunity to keep his enemies closer. Something has to drive Harvey over the edge. An investigation that leads nowhere wouldn't help his sanity if he's manically determined to stop Batman.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3jdm24XoAM2ySo?format=jpg)

This sketch of Harvey Bullock reminds me of Vincent Pastore, minus the mole on the cheek.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTI3FGz9vXtsbzsbVlnZ4x8M24l6TNLkTwC3_Y4mX1CX636GIeDe7A-gog&s=10)

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 11 Jun  2021, 03:15
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3jdm24XoAM2ySo?format=jpg)

This sketch of Harvey Bullock reminds me of Vincent Pastore, minus the mole on the cheek.

There is a version on Instagram where Bullock is flanked by two cops. Are they on the steps of Wayne Manor?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E39fcxBX0AAiEEE?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed, 16 Jun  2021, 15:08
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E39fcxBX0AAiEEE?format=jpg&name=large)

That looks like an expression of surprise, suggesting Bruce could be caught off guard by the investigation. If so, that's probably the more exciting option as intuitive improvisation is the secret of genius.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4HvaI_XIA4LXeO?format=jpg&name=large)
Guess who's back, back again. Also new under roos.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 18 Jun  2021, 13:42
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4HvaI_XIA4LXeO?format=jpg&name=large)
Guess who's back, back again. Also new under roos.

The lunar background (very apt for a woman named 'Selina') and pose remind me of this.

"And if I may editorialize, you all are not ready for what Sam Hamm has been cooking up for this series. Just staggering, brilliant takes. I can't speak for my art, but the story does not disappoint." --Joe Quinones

Synopsis for #2. "A showdown in Burnside leaves both Batman and the Gotham borough reeling. As the community rallies together behind Harvey Dent, can Bruce find a way forward for both Batman and the city?"

#2 Cover
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4LbsiSXwAA1pqN?format=jpg&name=large)

and Variant #2 by Mitch Gerads
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4LhQTZVcAIN3tm?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 18 Jun  2021, 19:15
Synopsis for #2. "A showdown in Burnside leaves both Batman and the Gotham borough reeling. As the community rallies together behind Harvey Dent, can Bruce find a way forward for both Batman and the city?"

Hmm. Sounds like there could be lots of property damage here, just like when Penguin hijacked the Batmobile. If those themes are explored I'm all for it.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4m2vnKX0AE2yUk?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4lnG5QWYAQLDz0?format=jpg&name=360x360)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4lnG5UXwAI12P8?format=jpg&name=360x360)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu, 24 Jun  2021, 14:14
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4lnG5UXwAI12P8?format=jpg&name=360x360)

As if I wasn't already hyped enough for this series, they go and throw in the scarecrow from Burton's Sleepy Hollow.


I hope we're going to see lots of spooky gothic Burtonesque images like this in both the Batman 89 comic and The Flash. It would be awesome if this is what the Burtonverse Jonathan Crane looked like when in costume.

Here's a big question. When you guys buy in print, where do you buy your comics? Is it at an online store? Will you be doing that with this book? Would you share that info with me?

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 28 Jun  2021, 16:57
Here's a big question. When you guys buy in print, where do you buy your comics? Is it at an online store? Will you be doing that with this book? Would you share that info with me?

I generally read comics digitally. When I do buy the physical issues I'd like to support my local comic book shop.

Gonna buy these in print to go with my comic adaptations. I go to a local store

I was thinking. Issue 2 mentions Burnside, which is a Batgirl side of town. Is it possible that lady detective is Babs?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5G307tXoAc5NSJ?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5ZGKj2X0AkXRjk?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5TPwDRXoAEipZz?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5Oj5OMXIAEXGys?format=jpg&name=large)

Has anyone pre purchased theirs? Apparently, they've sold out in some places.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 29 Jun  2021, 15:21
I was thinking. Issue 2 mentions Burnside, which is a Batgirl side of town. Is it possible that lady detective is Babs?

Could be. Judging from this Taurin Clarke variant.

(https://13thdimension.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Screen-Shot-2021-07-03-at-5.16.28-PM-768x592.png)

That female cop was gathering all Batman-related evidence in another picture. What if she is Ellen Yindel? It would make most sense, given she is known to have an anti-Batman agenda in TDKR.

As for the guy who looks like Scorpion, is that meant to be Robin? I would've guessed it might be Azrael, but the costume colour scheme is different.

Catwoman's new look is a little more provocative than her original outfit.

Loving everything so far.

Quote from: GBglide on Tue,  6 Jul  2021, 02:05
Has anyone pre purchased theirs? Apparently, they've sold out in some places.

It didn't even cross my mind that I could reserve a copy. I'll try my local comic book store tomorrow.

Quote from: GBglide on Tue,  6 Jul  2021, 02:05
Has anyone pre purchased theirs? Apparently, they've sold out in some places.

I snagged mine at two different places online. I'm trying to get all variants, so I used Stadium Comics to get the standard cover by Joe, the Jerry Ordway cover, and the Joe variant that's gonna be 1:25 in circulation and is kinda pricey. Stadium is the only online retailer that I saw that has that one and they bundled it in a set with the other two.

I did Midtown Comics to get the newly unveiled Taurin Clarke version that features Mortal Kombat Robin. They still have preorders up for the reg and Ordway versions. Issue 2 is also up.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5n1PUyX0AYbz4v?format=jpg&name=medium)

Yeah....not a fan of the Scorpion/Robin design.

If you want to give him a hood, go for it, but don't make it look like a blatant MK-ripoff.

Quote from: The Joker on Tue,  6 Jul  2021, 03:09

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 29 Jun  2021, 15:21
I was thinking. Issue 2 mentions Burnside, which is a Batgirl side of town. Is it possible that lady detective is Babs?

Could be. Judging from this Taurin Clarke variant.

(https://13thdimension.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Screen-Shot-2021-07-03-at-5.16.28-PM-768x592.png)

If that female cop is Barbara, then that bodes well for setting up Batman Beyond in the future.

Dent's got a shock of white hair like his B:TAS counterpart. I always imagined that Burton would have gone for a similar look had he depicted Two-Face in live action.


It makes sense for Selina to get a revised costume, since her original was badly damaged by the end of BR. The b&w preview art had me concerned that her upper thighs would be bare, but now that I know she's wearing tights I think her new outfit's actually pretty good. I like that she's got a belt similar to the one worn by the B:TAS Catwoman.


If Pfeiffer showed up wearing this ^ in The Flash trailer, the internet would melt.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue,  6 Jul  2021, 15:21
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5n1PUyX0AYbz4v?format=jpg&name=medium)

It would be hilarious if Marlon got royalties for this along with the residuals he receives from the DVD sales of BR and BF.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue,  6 Jul  2021, 16:05
Yeah....not a fan of the Scorpion/Robin design.

If you want to give him a hood, go for it, but don't make it look like a blatant MK-ripoff.

It seems the guess I made about Robin wearing the hood in my last post was correct after all.

The redesign might be derivative, but I don't mind it.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue,  6 Jul  2021, 15:21
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5n1PUyX0AYbz4v?format=jpg&name=medium)

The obvious thing to comment on is the Scorpion influence, as Trav said. I do think it's probably too similar, but I get what they're going for: a warrior and less of a boy wonder. The trend with Robin is to make him more serious looking (Arkhamverse), and I expected as much here. I like that the traditional red, green and yellow are present.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  6 Jul  2021, 17:34
It makes sense for Selina to get a revised costume, since her original was badly damaged by the end of BR. The b&w preview art had me concerned that her upper thighs would be bare, but now that I know she's wearing tights I think her new outfit's actually pretty good. I like that she's got a belt similar to the one worn by the B:TAS Catwoman.

Honestly, the original costume was so perfect that I would've been happy getting it again. But in terms of an ongoing career, modifications make sense. The difference is minimal but quite substantial. Returns took place over the Christmas period. Selina needed an outfit ready to battle Batman right then are there, so she made the costume in one night and from materials already present in her apartment. Merging BR with BTAS seems appropriate.

One thing to consider when thinking about Robin. It is entirely possible that he begins his career on his own. That was how Hamm handled it in Batman 2 and that is the vibe I'm getting. Perhaps the costume evolves.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5tBZgxWUAcYxve?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5oVghGWQAIbnTg?format=jpg&name=large)

A pre-order for the Graphic Novel version is up (July 2022)
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/batman-89-sam-hamm/1138940457?ean=9781779512680


Do wonder if he'll get his Returns costume at come point?

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Wd2bkqwY4VY/maxresdefault.jpg)

Also, wonder if we'll see Chip Shreck at some point?

On a side-note. It's crazy that this is the only Billy Dee merchandise Tie-in with his Harvey/Two face. I wonder if this sells well, we may see more?
(https://images.shoutwiki.com/lego/5/5f/70915_TwoFace.jpeg)

He's also wearing the exact suit he's wearing in 89'
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/KiSQu2yjDAVyV65vImv8UvDgDho=/0x0:710x386/920x613/filters:focal(187x67:299x179):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/52077491/billydee.0.jpeg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5y2N8yWUAUwRfI?format=jpg&name=large)

This one has eyes.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed,  7 Jul  2021, 12:45
One thing to consider when thinking about Robin. It is entirely possible that he begins his career on his own. That was how Hamm handled it in Batman 2 and that is the vibe I'm getting. Perhaps the costume evolves.

That's what I'm thinking (and hoping).

That the Scorpion-Robin costume is simply a preliminary to a more Neal Adams redesigned Robin costume. Kinda like how Marlon's Robin was going to wear oversized work overalls with a familiar looking R patch at one stage.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E50X8gWXsAI8Iiu?format=jpg&name=medium)

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  9 Jul  2021, 02:53

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed,  7 Jul  2021, 12:45
One thing to consider when thinking about Robin. It is entirely possible that he begins his career on his own. That was how Hamm handled it in Batman 2 and that is the vibe I'm getting. Perhaps the costume evolves.

That's what I'm thinking (and hoping).

That the Scorpion-Robin costume is simply a preliminary to a more Neal Adams redesigned Robin costume. Kinda like how Marlon's Robin was going to wear oversized work overalls with a familiar looking R patch at one stage.

Agreed. Since Batman seems to be getting a final act redesign, I suspect Robin will get one as well.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri,  9 Jul  2021, 13:40
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E50X8gWXsAI8Iiu?format=jpg&name=medium)

I've stayed mum about Catwoman so far.

Gotta say tho... not digging that. For me, part of what makes the Bruce/Selina relationship work is how brief it was. They might've been perfect for each other but they were both too consumed by their obsessions to rly indulge a romance. The song "Face To Face" rly sums it all up for me. The movie ends on a somber note. Yeah, Catwoman is still out there. But I like the idea that they never see each other again and their mutual loss is a tragedy for both of them.

Going back to the well with the Burtonverse's Catwoman is a big risk. She's one of my favorite parts of BR and the idea of revisiting her is fraught with peril.

I emphasize that my expectations for this comic are sky high. Usually, I'm content to let a comic be what it wants to be. But the Burtonverse is my fanboy origin. This is a serious thing for me. And I emphasize that the creators had better be on their A-game. Because I'll tolerate nothing less than brilliance from these comics. The Burtonverse set that expectation for me and the creative team is willingly taking those expectations upon themselves.

With the sweet comes the bitter. I will spare no criticism if this series isn't up to snuff.

(Also, I think we've been teased enough and the art releases need to stop for a while but maybe that's just me)

Women are like cats. The more you chase them the harder they run. They'll come back in their own time. I'll judge the comic and the interactions with a critical eye, but in the context of an ongoing career, how realistic is it that Batman and Catwoman would never meet again? Judging their relationship from one movie and one moment in time is an easy trap to fall in to, especially given Batman Forever's approach. But Michelle wasn't going to appear in Forever, or any other Schumacher film. That's the chief reason why she's nowhere to be found. I'm sure Catwoman would eventually return to meet Batman, as the final scene of Returns depicts. Not touching upon her whereabouts in a Burton continuation would be the bigger elephant in the room. Each movie is about capturing one idea or feeling. B89 is a dark movie, but it's undeniably heroic. Returns is a dark movie with a sadder conclusion. A third or fourth Burton film would've been different again somehow.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  9 Jul  2021, 16:03
I emphasize that my expectations for this comic are sky high. Usually, I'm content to let a comic be what it wants to be. But the Burtonverse is my fanboy origin. This is a serious thing for me. And I emphasize that the creators had better be on their A-game. Because I'll tolerate nothing less than brilliance from these comics. The Burtonverse set that expectation for me and the creative team is willingly taking those expectations upon themselves.

With the sweet comes the bitter. I will spare no criticism if this series isn't up to snuff.

The Batman '89 comics is the only DC-related product I'm very excited about at the moment. Nothing about the glimpses we have seen so far has put me off so I'm willing to keep an open mind and judge once I start reading.

With that said, I can understand what you're saying from a purist's point of view. Burton himself doesn't seem to have any involvement with these comics so it wouldn't surprise me if some people begin to dismiss this as glorified fan fiction rather than a true continuation of the Burtonverse. A director making an unpopular storytelling decision is one thing. Other creators making unpopular decisions without the chief director whose name is defined in the continuity is something else entirely.

Sam Hamm is a bit of a mixed bag. As much as I more than appreciate his work on B89, Blind Justice was alright even if I found the character moments more memorable than the plot itself, but I wasn't a fan of his original Batman II script. So hopefully with the benefit of hindsight, Hamm will honour what was established in both Burton films.

But personally, I'm loving what we're getting so far. I also had the impression that Batman and Catwoman would never see each other again after their premature romance was doomed by fate, but that's because I accepted the idea that Schumacher was canon. Now that BF and B&R are no longer recognised as part of the Burtonverse, I'm curious to see how Batman and Catwoman rekindle their relationship, before it presumably ends thanks to fate yet again.

Staying spoiler free, but still commenting on some of the promotional art I've seen. A lot of the cover art unfortunately has fallen into the same pitfall as recent Star Wars comic art; directly tracing images taken from the movies creates an uncanny look. But the inside art at least stands on its own and doesn't reuse stills too heavily as far as I can see.

Robin looks pretty out of place. Too many artists seem to be ashamed of the core aspects of Robin's design that he's virtually unrecognizable. I think it becomes more important to tie that in since Marlon Wayans does not look like Dick Grayson of the comics (obviously). My beef here is that it doesn't look like it's from the Burton-verse, nor does it look like Robin.

We don't really know for sure how along the Robin design was before Burton was ousted. The rumors of a deleted scene seem to be false, as are claims of a costume test (mentioned in this old Batman-online article).
https://www.batman-online.com/features/2008/4/9/burtons-3rd-batman-rumours
The costume design of the unseen screen test being reused by Kenner seems too good to be true since it's a perfect rendering of Tim Drake's comic outfit. I want to believe, but it's not likely. It can easily be dismissed the same way the Penguin used his comics look instead of the movie's.

Still, the concepts by Bob Ringwood are what I'd consider to be a primary source from someone directly involved in Batman 1989. While the art clearly depicts Marlon being recast by a white actor at this point, it still feels authentic to see designs by Ringwood that predate the release of Forever. While the full-face mask one looks very Burton-esque, I personally prefer the more comic feel of the cloth one.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E584uu8X0AoQtuj?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6HXPG0XEAYAzJD?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6ICsZzWEA0HrzB?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 12 Jul  2021, 21:23
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6ICsZzWEA0HrzB?format=jpg&name=large)

Reminds me of this.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 12 Jul  2021, 22:42

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 12 Jul  2021, 21:23
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6ICsZzWEA0HrzB?format=jpg&name=large)

Reminds me of this.

(https://preview.redd.it/grvs0yappgm41.jpg?auto=webp&s=3a9b7354ecccb1e6f737b24c0df6fd538717d43a)

Reminded me of...

(https://i.imgur.com/grq6tS4.png)

Different perspective, obviously. But surprisingly similar.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6Ti_cjWYAI4jTQ?format=jpg&name=large)

Reviews for issue #1 are coming. Even Jett of BOF gave it a good review, though of course it was with the caveat that "if you like Tim Burton's Batman, you'll like this."

(https://13thdimension.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/0621DC021-580x894.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6XGTEAX0AE3kqJ?format=jpg&name=large)

OK! SPOILER ALERT. I WILL **NOT** be posting the full page previews for #1, but if you want to see them, they're here:

https://13thdimension.com/finally-dig-this-first-inside-look-at-batman-89-1/ (https://13thdimension.com/finally-dig-this-first-inside-look-at-batman-89-1/)

Issue #3 synopsis: "As the fire rages at Royal Auto, Harvey Dent lies trapped inside, unconscious and in danger. Can Bruce Wayne get to Harvey in time, or will the district attorney leave burned—in more ways than one?"
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6XxMOeXsAQhUdX?format=jpg&name=large)

Skecth of Robins (final?) costume

I'll just link it to avoid spoilers for some
https://13thdimension.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Screen-Shot-2021-02-14-at-11.20.51-AM-768x1183.png

Also, love the callback to TAS with the bank and this seems like a weird mix of Frank Miller and Batman Forever lol

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Fri, 16 Jul  2021, 01:06
Skecth of Robins (final?) costume

I'll just link it to avoid spoilers for some
https://13thdimension.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Screen-Shot-2021-02-14-at-11.20.51-AM-768x1183.png

Also, love the callback to TAS with the bank and this seems like a weird mix of Frank Miller and Batman Forever lol

Interesting. Esp Robin's belt buckle.

One thing that confused me as a kid was (A) Robin's inclusion in the Kenner BR toyline (understandable now, just not at the time) and (B) the weird detailing on Robin's belt buckle.

I was a major Tim Drake fanboy at the time and the weird buckle design seemed odd because it didn't rly line up with the comic book design... which is where I thought the action figure took its design inspiration from.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0758/8457/products/063_cdb931c9-8c06-4208-9c2c-c607c57f32e9_grande.JPG)

At this moment, I'm guessing that the Robin action figure was intended to match what would've been the character's final look in the film. But then Robin was removed from the script and that was that. But the action figure had probably been approved by that point, I guess. Hence, the figure looks remarkably like the comic book character... except for that odd belt buckle.

All of this is to say that if that's Robin's final uniform design in the comic book, that's some amazing attention to detail on somebody's part.

My sincerest thanks to the Knight from Gotham for posting all this juicy goodness. For Burton Batman discussion this is the place to be. We may be a small group but we're a passionate one, and know our stuff. Long have we waited. But our patience has borne fruit.

After fears the Burtonverse was pushed to the side, we've now got it all.

Expanded Elfman soundtracks? Check.
The films in HD? Check
New merchandise? Check
Comic continuation? Check
Keaton returning? Check

Incredible.

As for the full page previews, I like most of it. Some of the sequences we will see probably wouldn't have been adapted in live action, but the spirit seems accurate. The return of the BR cape glider brings a smile to my face. I feel like the remote control Batmobile is very much a Burton era trope, so it's nice to see it getting a workout again. Not sure how I feel about Keatonman having a more direct relationship with Gordon, but it is what it is.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 24 Jun  2021, 14:54

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu, 24 Jun  2021, 14:14
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4lnG5UXwAI12P8?format=jpg&name=360x360)

As if I wasn't already hyped enough for this series, they go and throw in the scarecrow from Burton's Sleepy Hollow.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9ckJwGR/Burton-scarecrow.gif)

I hope we're going to see lots of spooky gothic Burtonesque images like this in both the Batman 89 comic and The Flash. It would be awesome if this is what the Burtonverse Jonathan Crane looked like when in costume.

Judging from the preview pages, there will be more of these Burtonesque images sprinkled throughout the series.


It definitely does look as though they're taking some elements from the Schumacher movies, which is only fair. The helicopter scene has obvious parallels with the beginning of BF, and the wrist-mounted grapple shooter resembles the one used by the Kilmer and Clooney Batmen. I hope they won't shy away from making Arkham Asylum look like the Schumacher version too, since that was by far the most Burtonesque aspect of BF and B&R.


We've spent years analysing every frame of the Burton Batman movies, and now we're going to apply the same geeky level of analysis to every page of this comic. I can't wait to read it and get started!

Note Robin, Two Face, and BATCYCLE (Has armor mode!)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6YJHgLVoAAZdSm?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

Issue 3 variant.

(https://13thdimension.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/BM89_Cv3_var_00321-580x892.jpg)

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Jul  2021, 12:44
My sincerest thanks to the Knight from Gotham for posting all this juicy goodness.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/f19401afd273f25930e59a4533d7d325/tenor.gif?itemid=7338575)

Please, please, please let Billy Dee Williams appear in The Flash looking like this. Even if it's only a cameo, just let it happen.


This is exactly what I always imagined a Burton Two-Face would look like. The Beetlejuice influence feels very appropriate. It's perfect.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Jul  2021, 12:44
My sincerest thanks to the Knight from Gotham for posting all this juicy goodness.

I second that. Gotham Knight's been our top agent since this series was announced, and I appreciate him gathering all the previews here for our convenience. I'd have missed a lot of them otherwise.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Jul  2021, 12:44

As for the full page previews, I like most of it. Some of the sequences we will see probably wouldn't have been adapted in live action, but the spirit seems accurate. The return of the BR cape glider brings a smile to my face. I feel like the remote control Batmobile is very much a Burton era trope, so it's nice to see it getting a workout again. Not sure how I feel about Keatonman having a more direct relationship with Gordon, but it is what it is.

Personally, I'm happy to see Keaton's Wayne start playing nicer with Gordon. That kind of detail is crucial to his evolution as a character. Despite the new attempt to separate the Schumacher movies from Burton's, that plot element the Batchelors and Goldsman brought makes the anthology Batman such a richer character. That he isn't just a killer because it would have been cooler on film (the real reason they did it), but because Wayne had to go from a vengeful figure back to a heroic one, that in Returns he had clearly lost his way.

If Hamm is willing to maintain even a semblance of that evolution, just covering it in a fresh coat of paint? I'm happy with that. With Hamm being a longtime, educated fan of the character, I expect he wants to subtly bring Keaton's Wayne closer in line with the man as written by O'Neil. I appreciate that.

The big question mark for me is still how is Hamm going to handle the Catwoman character considering that he had little to do with the version that showed up in Returns.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 16 Jul  2021, 13:32
It definitely does look as though they're taking some elements from the Schumacher movies, which is only fair. The helicopter scene has obvious parallels with the beginning of BF, and the wrist-mounted grapple shooter resembles the one used by the Kilmer and Clooney Batmen.

It's a broken record but using some BF elements would make the experience feel authentic. We need to remember the time period in which Batman 3 would have been made. The direction of stories change with new creative talent but action sequences and the like can carry over. The helicopter sequence is a good 'similar but different' example. I can believe a sequence like that would have eventually been scripted for Keaton, rather than Kilmer. Or in alternate universe, where Kilmer dropped out and Keaton returned.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 16 Jul  2021, 13:32
I hope they won't shy away from making Arkham Asylum look like the Schumacher version too, since that was by far the most Burtonesque aspect of BF and B&R.

(https://i.gifer.com/RjOT.gif)

It will be interesting to see if Arkham is introduced. Dent's presence could spur the creation or re-opening of such a facility. In any case, I'd be eager to see the aesthetic. Because Schumacher's Arkham is absolutely stunning. I mean, just look at it.

The Batcycle is a surprise to see and the design is perfect. The rear fin, jet turbine and cocoon shield system make it the genuine product, and a work of art like the car we all know and love. How absolutely awesome that it has a sliding canopy. I'd like a toy version to be released. Two-Face looks how I expected him to. The black and white scheme is perfect. There's a Burton influence not just here but in the side characters Silver has spotted in those panels.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Fri, 16 Jul  2021, 17:45

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Jul  2021, 12:44

As for the full page previews, I like most of it. Some of the sequences we will see probably wouldn't have been adapted in live action, but the spirit seems accurate. The return of the BR cape glider brings a smile to my face. I feel like the remote control Batmobile is very much a Burton era trope, so it's nice to see it getting a workout again. Not sure how I feel about Keatonman having a more direct relationship with Gordon, but it is what it is.

Personally, I'm happy to see Keaton's Wayne start playing nicer with Gordon. That kind of detail is crucial to his evolution as a character. Despite the new attempt to separate the Schumacher movies from Burton's, that plot element the Batchelors and Goldsman brought makes the anthology Batman such a richer character. That he isn't just a killer because it would have been cooler on film (the real reason they did it), but because Wayne had to go from a vengeful figure back to a heroic one, that in Returns he had clearly lost his way.

If Hamm is willing to maintain even a semblance of that evolution, just covering it in a fresh coat of paint? I'm happy with that. With Hamm being a longtime, educated fan of the character, I expect he wants to subtly bring Keaton's Wayne closer in line with the man as written by O'Neil. I appreciate that.

The terse loner really appeals to me. It's true though that in terms of character development and expanding a roster of allies, such as Robin, things need to change in regards to that depiction. It's best suited to an early days Batman, which B89-BR was. Something like what Forever depicted but though the lens of Burton would satisfy me, because I think rather highly of Forever to begin with. However, I'd still prefer dialogue reduced where possible and a clear distinction that we're still dealing with Keaton's Batman - despite his evolution.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 16 Jul  2021, 14:27
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/f19401afd273f25930e59a4533d7d325/tenor.gif?itemid=7338575)

(https://i.gifer.com/embedded/download/XLWo.gif)

The Batcycle is another one of those things that I always imagined would have appeared in Burton's third Batman movie. Tim already presented his versions of the Batmobile, Batplane, Bat-Glider, Batmissile and Batboat in the first two films. The Batcycle was the next logical step. I'd still like to see Keaton's Batman use the Batcycle in The Flash movie, but if that's not possible then I'll settle for seeing it in the new comic.

The design looks good. It's consistent with the aesthetic of the movies and looks like something that could have evolved from a streamlined version of the Batmissile.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 17 Jul  2021, 12:54
The design looks good. It's consistent with the aesthetic of the movies and looks like something that could have evolved from a streamlined version of the Batmissile.

This is just a comic image, but already I prefer it to both Nolan and Reeves designs. This is a futuristic, sleek piece of technology. I don't think any of the other incarnations come near Keaton's vehicles, even if I think Snyder's Batmobile is technically the best in terms of suspension, speed, armor/aesthetic balance etc.

That cycle is very much in line and welcome addition to Keatons story! Was there ever a cycle for the Keaton toyline? I cannot recall one (which seems kind of odd), the closest I can find is this. It'll be fun to compare 2021 elements with their 90's toy tie-in counterparts

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ba/5e/fc/ba5efc1cadeb30f776f9f09054f5ffba.jpg)

Who else is gonna be reading the movie comic adaptations in hype for the first issue of Batman'89 :D

I also wonder if any of these designs are going to be adapted in the flash?

In terms of homages to the Schumacher films, I hope we get a version of "he took the car" because that was 100% a Keaton scene

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0735/8115/products/IMG_7471_620x.JPG?v=1522413464)

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 17 Jul  2021, 18:00
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0735/8115/products/IMG_7471_620x.JPG?v=1522413464)

Gimme.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6hEmj9X0AI0IKr?format=jpg&name=medium)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Sat, 17 Jul  2021, 18:08

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 17 Jul  2021, 18:00
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0735/8115/products/IMG_7471_620x.JPG?v=1522413464)

Gimme.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6hEmj9X0AI0IKr?format=jpg&name=medium)

I got it as a Christmas present one year. 1991, I guess. It was actually a pretty decent little toy too. And it didn't bother me too much that the batcycle was nowhere to be found in B89. As a kid, I sort of rationalized it. "He has a Batcycle. We might not have seen it. But he has one." That TDK Collection had a pretty decent line of vehicles, actually. A helicopter, a batwing and a bat jet.

The Kenner TDK line rly was a major upgrade over the lackluster Toy Biz line. I thought so back then and I still think so.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6mu9PrXoAEd2y3?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6mu9PqXMAErxoX?format=jpg&name=900x900)

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 17 Jul  2021, 17:11Who else is gonna be reading the movie comic adaptations in hype for the first issue of Batman'89 :D

I'm halfway through re-reading the Batman '89 adaptation right now. It's not been that long since I last read both it and the BR adaptation – maybe a year or two – but now is the perfect time to revisit them both.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 17 Jul  2021, 18:00
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0735/8115/products/IMG_7471_620x.JPG?v=1522413464)

I had this when I was a kid! ;D I don't remember the packaging, but I remember the toy itself vividly. The gun used to move when you dragged the wheels across a surface. I lost the side wings early on, and the shield at the front kept coming loose, but it was a great toy.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Sun, 18 Jul  2021, 22:12
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6mu9PrXoAEd2y3?format=jpg&name=medium)

I'm guessing the 'B' stands for 'Blüdhaven'.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6sz7sTWEAIiBfj?format=jpg&name=large)

Another variant by Warren Louw 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E63chEVXMAEkRP9?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6_6pYQWQAgvuvE?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6_88aFXsAMEKss?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6_88Z_XsAMAOko?format=jpg&name=medium)

And my favorite panel thus far!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6_88aBWYAI8pe8?format=jpg&name=medium)
Bruce looks like he did in front of the Monarch Theater

I don't know if this has come up yet, but the studies of Robin have him listed as Richard Drake. He'll likely be an amalgam.

Just noticed the contrast/split colors on Robins jacket. I wonder if he'll have any connection to Harvey?

Also, I noticed that the female jokerz shirts say "All this and brains Two". Wonder if they'll become this versions of sugar and spice?


Also, Sam Hamm Tweeted this on the 10th
"I thought the story was a little ho-hum, but the art is so breathtaking nobody will notice! What a treat to be back on the playground with
@Joe_Quinones @amarino2814 @andykhouri Clayton Cowles and Leonardo Ito."

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 24 Jul  2021, 04:02
Also, I noticed that the female jokerz shirts say "All this and brains Two". Wonder if they'll become this versions of sugar and spice?

At a bare minimum it's a reference to TDK Returns - the TV news anchorwoman wearing the white shirt which said 'all this and brains too'.

Oh yea, that was the first thing I noticed then I was like "huh...Two"

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Thu, 22 Jul  2021, 23:39
Another variant by Warren Louw 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E63chEVXMAEkRP9?format=jpg&name=large)

Not a strong likeness but a good image nonetheless.

I dig this variant by Francesco Mattina more, though.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7D0W9CWQA0alAe?format=jpg&name=large)

This chick cop is touching around on the bat gadgets too much! She's making me nervous. She knows, doesn't she?! Also, whats going on in the last picture. I don't understand.

Te expression in that last pic is very Winona from the final scene of Beetlejuice when she says "Come on!"

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7PCj2rWYAI8Lgq?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7PCj2qWQAURuwu?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7PCj2tXEAULv26?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7PCj2rXIAEgPDj?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 17 Jul  2021, 18:00
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0735/8115/products/IMG_7471_620x.JPG?v=1522413464)

This whole line of discussion seems oddly prescient just now.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7aCUgdXoAIAC2p?format=jpg&name=large)

Eavesdropping outside Gordon's office?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 29 Jul  2021, 03:37
Eavesdropping outside Gordon's office?

That would be a reasonable assumption, considering that the police are going to actively against Batman now.
Fun little fact is that Hamm establishes in BATMAN II that Bruce literally has the GCPD (Gordon's office at least) bugged.But, then again, in that script they don't seem to have a familiar relationship as I recall (been a while now since I read it). Though it isn't a huge point in Returns, Batman is clearly at Adam West levels (something that people forget) with the cops in Returns, so there is a pretty up front aspect to the relationship, which is why the batmobile blueprints never bothered me. So he wouldn't need to bug anybody, though the idea was always pretty compelling.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu, 29 Jul  2021, 13:58
Though it isn't a huge point in Returns, Batman is clearly at Adam West levels (something that people forget) with the cops in Returns, so there is a pretty up front aspect to the relationship

There was an element of Trust (other than the Prince song) as per the finale of B89. The relationship is much different to Adam West, though. At the beginning of Returns, Keaton doesn't look at Gordon, speaks minimally and keeps walking. He's on their side but he's his own man, which I think makes the Penguin's framing of him more believable. It's still early days in Batman's career and the GCPD don't know him all that well. Only that he stopped the Joker. A degree of lingering scepticism would be natural with someone so mysterious. The comic series tapping into that would be welcome. Gordon himself, however, at least wanted to give Batman a chance to plead his case with his "hold your fire" comment. Even then I believe he trusted him more than the others.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 29 Jul  2021, 14:41
There was an element of Trust (other than the Prince song) as per the finale of B89. The relationship is much different to Adam West, though. At the beginning of Returns, Keaton doesn't look at Gordon, speaks minimally and keeps walking. He's on their side but he's his own man, which I think makes the Penguin's framing of him more believable. It's still early days in Batman's career and the GCPD don't know him all that well. Only that he stopped the Joker. A degree of lingering scepticism would be natural with someone so mysterious. The comic series tapping into that would be welcome. Gordon himself, however, at least wanted to give Batman a chance to plead his case with his "hold your fire" comment. Even then I believe he trusted him more than the others.

I've wondered how that conversation between Batman and Gordon would've played out. Gordon logically would've asked for Batman's side of the story. Batman would've naturally answered with the truth: an admired hero, orphan, up-and-coming mayoral candidate and city-wide darling had set a trap, sprung out of nowhere, tossed an umbrella full of bats at the Ice Princess with the specific intention of framing Batman and then the Ice Princess plummeted to her death... who was the one who kidnapped her in the first place, again, in an effort to frame Batman.

After Oswald's fall from grace, Gordon probably would've believed anything. But before that point, I wouldn't have held it against Gordon if he found parts of Batman's story a little hard to believe.

Goes a long way toward illustrating how important it is for Gordon to have a more solid relationship with Batman, I think.

Another Keaton cycle to compare too
(https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/226380660_4537805992920381_5576587679905942352_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=HlZ-YTJFkD0AX9JLwST&tn=Uqovm2d-u74hfDP0&_nc_ht=scontent.ftpa1-1.fna&oh=2c68725d2953066d7bf7f77024b2a0b2&oe=61281080)

Kitty.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7vS8dkXEAs5jCx?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Sun,  1 Aug  2021, 22:39
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7vS8dkXEAs5jCx?format=jpg&name=large)

I'm torn. I'm frustrated as Alfred begins to look less and less like Michael Gough, but as a cat person I love it!

Well issue #1 is out a week from now, Tuesday the 10th. I'm curious about something. Who among you is going to rewatch the Burton Duology? Perhaps you'll be rereading the comic book adaptations as well? I haven't decided yet. I've seen the films so many times that I'm just not sure. Aw heck, I probably will. What about the rest of you? Will you try and fit any celebrations into schedules this weekend?

Read the 89 comic adaptation and now and reading returns :D

I'll probably just rewatch B89 and maybe returns if I have time.

Finished the Returns comic and forgot that Catwoman actually died in it, that kinda dings putting this in the comic universe if The Flash ignores what this established lol
(https://i.postimg.cc/Px61VsT9/comic.png)

Also, I think this is the first heavy-handed McDonalds plug (ironic it's Returns let alone the comics that tried to be more kid-friendly but kind of didn't) and that Forever follows up
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhNKjs0F/comic2.png)(https://i.postimg.cc/zGVKtXBr/forever.png)

Also forgot this came out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCdsakl1_VM

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  4 Aug  2021, 18:58
Finished the Returns comic and forgot that Catwoman actually died in it

Did she tho?

(https://i.imgur.com/bu83BTB.jpg)

And since I'm here (and since I have no idea where else to put this), the BR comic adaptation presents some scenes in a different order for some reason.

-- The Comic
Selina realizes she forgot the file
Max and the Penguin join forces
The Penguin "rescues" the mayor's baby
The Penguin gathers names of the first born babies
Max finds Selina working late at the office and things go sideways

-- The Movie
Max and the Penguin join forces
Selina realizes she forgot the file
Max finds Selina working late at the office and things go sideways
The Penguin "rescues" the mayor's baby
The Penguin gathers names of the first born babies

Thought it was weird. Don't understand why this happened. But here you go.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  4 Aug  2021, 19:24

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  4 Aug  2021, 18:58
Finished the Returns comic and forgot that Catwoman actually died in it

Did she tho?

There are two bodies in the pannel whereas in the film, script and movie novel, it was just Max when Bruce was trying to find Selina.

Quote
     INT. THE LAIR--NIGHT

     Catlike screams of joy waft out off the mysterious mist of
     wattage.

                             BRUCE
               Se-li-na Kyle...

     Bruce frantically searches the thickening mist...
     but finds only Max's body, not Selina. 

She also "dies" in the video game (Genesis ver. which was released in 92 where the SNES ver was released in 93 and follows the films official ending)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUBRt7JGMN8

In Shadow of the Bat, Returns editor mentions a studio note about (possibly) keeping Catwoman alive (https://youtu.be/JKMSKvJncf4?t=1440). The script seems pretty clear that she did but perhaps something changed during production (like the adlibbed Batman blowing someone up). I think there are some arguments (pre-release) on if she lived or died and that's reflected not only in the last-minute reshoot but within the tie-ins as well.


edit:
Totally missed that "Didn't find her" line which really makes no sense with the previous pannels and confirmation that it was Selina and Max?
Edit 2: [HQ Scan](https://i.postimg.cc/WD606nMv/raw.png) (https://postimg.cc/WD606nMv)There are clearly two bodies..could also have just been a bodyswap (somehow) and that would clear that up. There were definitely some odd changes in the comic as you noted

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  4 Aug  2021, 19:52
There are two bodies in the pannel whereas in the film, script and movie novel, it was just Max when Bruce was trying to find Selina.

I have to put that down to an artistic choice to create an element of doubt. Bruce says "I didn't find her", and we later see Catwoman's shadow on the wall. That's two pieces of evidence against one.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  4 Aug  2021, 22:26

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  4 Aug  2021, 19:52
There are two bodies in the pannel whereas in the film, script and movie novel, it was just Max when Bruce was trying to find Selina.

I have to put that down to an artistic choice to create an element of doubt. Bruce says "I didn't find her", and we later see Catwoman's shadow on the wall. That's two pieces of evidence against one.

I think it's more of just confusion/translation error mixed with what seems to be late stage changes from the studio. As thecolorsblend showed, scenes are moved around in an odd order and this overall pace of this adaptation feels much more rushed compared to the 89 adaptation.

To bring it around back to the Batman'89 (I derailed this enough) I was thinking how Batman'89 should flow much better because it was written as a comic in mind and not condensing a film.

Also, Look what Sam Hamm got in the mail yesterday!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E76nlXOUYAYxybk?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  4 Aug  2021, 23:12

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  4 Aug  2021, 22:26

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  4 Aug  2021, 19:52
There are two bodies in the pannel whereas in the film, script and movie novel, it was just Max when Bruce was trying to find Selina.

I have to put that down to an artistic choice to create an element of doubt. Bruce says "I didn't find her", and we later see Catwoman's shadow on the wall. That's two pieces of evidence against one.

I think it's more of just confusion/translation error mixed with what seems to be late stage changes from the studio. As thecolorsblend showed, scenes are moved around in an odd order and this overall pace of this adaptation feels much more rushed compared to the 89 adaptation.

To bring it around back to the Batman'89 (I derailed this enough) I was thinking how Batman'89 should flow much better because it was written as a comic in mind and not condensing a film.

I can pretty much confirm that. 'Selina's alive!' was a VERY late change. They added it in a rush after the shoot was complete. The studio was interested in a spinoff and wanted the audience to leave with no ambiguity. So, they asked Burton to come up with something. They actually made a puppet Catwoman first, but ended up using a stand in. It was so close that they had to rush. Cost a quarter of a million bucks.

The first 3 pages are here:
https://twitter.com/drinkpinkink/status/1423789555728011265

Babs Gordon has been confirmed. Prince is indeed the new 'Joker.' He's the leader, anyway. Takes place on Halloween.

Awesome find!!

I added the other preview pages (now a total of 7) for fluid reading
(https://i.postimg.cc/5QSnBPjh/01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5QSnBPjh) (https://i.postimg.cc/hXjpm1nY/02.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hXjpm1nY) (https://i.postimg.cc/ZWMjxvK5/03.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZWMjxvK5) (https://i.postimg.cc/rdRjnyKC/04.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdRjnyKC) (https://i.postimg.cc/BtTYfvNm/05.webp) (https://postimg.cc/BtTYfvNm) (https://i.postimg.cc/jLR8xrFt/06.webp) (https://postimg.cc/jLR8xrFt) (https://i.postimg.cc/RNGgqbkf/07.webp) (https://postimg.cc/RNGgqbkf)

Less than 24 hours now.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8TKe9pXEAUDzZz?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8NfpmPWQAQcsHF?format=jpg&name=large)

I've read issue one. I like it, though have to admit all of the teases by the artist were counterproductive. It would've been better going in cold turkey. I won't spoil anything plot wise yet, as I'll let others read it themselves first.

I've read issue 1 as well. Loved it, and wont spoil it just yet. My only problem is that it felt way too short. Maybe I'm just desperate for more. Loving the take on Robin. Robin hood! Clever, Sam. Very good. The colors rock.

I wonder when it will be appropriate to discuss this at length. Should a new thread be started or should we simply wait a few days and then launch into it?

https://twitter.com/andykhouri/status/1425164620113727488

This is a lovely tribute to the work done, delivered by one of the editors. Apparently, the book has sold VERY well, which is a good thing.

Finished the first issue, am very interesting to see where Dents going

I bought it digitally. I'll read it sometime today when I get a chance.

I'll put this in white just to be safe.

After several re-reads the introduction of Harvey feels similar to B89's treatment of Napier, I think. He has a love interest, as Jack did with Alicia, and it's also causing problems. Barbara doesn't talk much with her father, and he heard about their engagement via second hand information. Gordon thinks Dent is a jerk, and Dent has beef with Gordon's connection to Batman. There's fertile ground to harm already strained relationships.

Dent is a political figure but there's a mobster vibe about him in the way he confronts things. Punching and pulling guns, and of course gunning for Batman. The comic establishes it's all or nothing with him - either be a "big man or a bum." Which opens things up to possibly having an excessive God complex. When things hit the fan, we'll see how big of a man he really is. Billy Dee has always had a mix of charm and darkness, and so far they've captured that.

Other observations:

Bruce telling Harvey "they recovered 31 million bucks from the armored cars" feels similar to his defence of Batman to Selina in Returns, when he mentioned Batman prevented property damage, thus justifying his exploits.
The batsignal being lit to lure Batman, and Bruce and Alfred knowing so, is just like Penguin's television appeal to Batman in Returns.
Loved seeing the Returns fireplace room again, even though we have the B89 outside aesthetic for Wayne Manor. It's possibly believable it's just another room in the same house. Same goes with the B89 kitchen area.
It's early days with this Robin, but I'm feeling good about it so far.

I liked it. The beginning reminded me of the intro to Batman Forever.

Can't wait to see more Harvey Dent.

Jerry Ordway art definitely worth sharing.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8dHUOKWYAsqiQ4?format=jpg&name=large)

A few thoughts.

I enjoyed the first issue. Hamm's clearly lifting some elements from his unproduced Batman II script, as we expected he would. These include the subplot about the Batman copycats and the storyline about Bullock leading the taskforce that's hunting Batman. The scene where Robin attacks Batman is also somewhat similar to their first meeting in Hamm's Batman II script, where Robin attacked Bruce because he thought he was stealing his belongings.

I'm enjoying Dent's storyline a lot. I lately revisited Denny O'Neil's comic adaptations of B89 and BR, and I was disappointed to note that Dent was almost entirely absent from the former. He only appears in about two panels, and all of his lines were given to other characters. But now he's finally getting his chance to shine. His antagonistic relationship with Gordon is a departure from what we saw in the 1989 movie, however their alliance in that film predated Batman's collaborations with the GCPD. Batman seems to be the central point of contention between them (or is it Harvey's relationship with Babs?) and the main reason their friendship has soured. I always thought Harvey sounded pleased when he read Batman's letter at the end of B89, but his attitude's certainly changed since then. Presumably the copycat vigilantes are to blame for that. The Nolanverse Dent was a vocal supporter of Batman, so it makes for an interesting contrast to have the Burtonverse Dent be one of his most vocal critics.

On the negative side, I have to say that the art isn't really evoking the Burton aesthetic for me so far. I mostly like the character designs, and it was fun spotting all the Easter egg references to his other films (is Barbara modelled on Winona Ryder or Sean Young?), but the city itself feels a tad generic. Maybe it's the lack of shadows or the brightness of the colours, but it just doesn't evoke the dark gothic scary Gotham from the movies. Maybe that'll change in later issues.

Overall though, it's off to a good start.

Just read the first issue, I like what I'm seeing so far. The biggest highlight is the setup of Dent. I liked seeing his home life. The stories take on the double life of Dent is clever. The character beat of him being in between the high class political world, and his humble beginnings is a good starting point for Two-Face. Can't wait to read more.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 11 Aug  2021, 22:37
I always thought Harvey sounded pleased when he read Batman's letter at the end of B89, but his attitude's certainly changed since then. Presumably the copycat vigilantes are to blame for that. The Nolanverse Dent was a vocal supporter of Batman, so it makes for an interesting contrast to have the Burtonverse Dent be one of his most vocal critics.

The bat signal has not been used in six months. The ending of B89 gave the impression it was a public gift for all of the City. Batman is being summoned but in an alternate way, which gives the impression he's Gordon's private security.

Dent being someone who will turn on people and enter uncomfortable areas in his pursuit of justice feels true to his character. A man of results has to be that way sometimes. This Dent was willing to do that even before his transformation.

The Penguin's gang drove the city nuts in Returns and the mayhem is still going afterwards, just with different members doing the damage. I think it's natural for frustrations/resentment to boil over at some point, and blame assigned while looking for solutions.

A few other things:

"So far, the crowd has been rowdy, but peaceful." I read this comment with something else in mind. I doubt it's a reference to that, but I still take enjoyment from it.

"There's no room on the streets for law abiding citizens" reminds me of Jacks' "decent people shouldn't live here, they'd be happier some place else."

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 11 Aug  2021, 22:37
A few thoughts.

.... but the city itself feels a tad generic. Maybe it's the lack of shadows or the brightness of the colours, but it just doesn't evoke the dark gothic scary Gotham from the movies. Maybe that'll change in later issues.

Overall though, it's off to a good start.

Yeah, I agree with that. I did like how Batman was in shadow for the last few frames. That evoked the look oh him in Burton's films.

I wonder if there will be any mention of Schreck or what easter eggs we'll get

I read the first issue last night. Not too bad, although my only criticism is there is already quite A LOT happening while this saga is just getting started. I felt there is a lot to take in and read a few scenes again.

Spoilers in white:


I read some theories elsewhere that speculated the female cop who was gathering all the Batman evidence would be Barbara Gordon, but I was expecting something a lot less predictable. That doesn't necessarily make it a criticism though. I am a bit surprised that Harvey Dent is her fiance, and Commissioner Gordon doesn't think too fondly of him.

I do enjoy how Harvey Dent is getting an arc, which was expected. Some people may feel at odds over his agenda against Batman, but I think it would make sense over time. In B89, it's possible he was willing to put aside any skepticism towards Batman during the Joker crisis. But as time goes on and the events of BR appear to start a pattern, I don't think it would be too surprising that Harvey now perceives Batman as a menace to society. Not only does Batman cause collateral damage, which is even more costly as the crime he stops, there are times when people may resent him for not being around when they need him, such as Harvey and Barbara looking at the Batmobile passing by, right after they survived a mugging attempt.

Notice that unlike the usual backstory we read of Harvey Dent, the coin is not a symbol of psychological and emotional abuse, but rather a fond memory growing up as a poor kid in the local community.

The call to bring in the National Guard to hunt down Batman while restoring peace in Gotham City reminds me of The Dark Knight Returns. You can still feel the Miller influence going by some of the Easter eggs, such as the Mutant goons in the background during the Halloween parade. I even spotted some Tim Burton references, I could've sworn I saw Wynona Ryder as Lydia Deetz in Beetlejuice in one of the panel, and even another kid looked he was dressing up as the Penguin.

Judging by Batman interrogating the guy stealing some goods to take care of his baby sister and Robin's introduction - as well as Dent visiting the local neighbourhood - I wouldn't be surprised if we get more social commentary within the black community. The man who Dent grew up with did mention that no kid looks up to Harvey as an example, but rather somebody who defected to the other crowd to impress. So maybe the next couple of chapters will explore more of the classism and social politics of Gotham City, together with the issues surrounding Robin going around and protecting the poorer neighbourhoods. That's not to say it will suddenly go full on SJW though. I believe the writing will be a lot more tactful than that.

I do wish we would've gotten more scenes of Batman and Commissioner Gordon before the they had cut off their communication lines. But I understand there is a big story ahead, and the first issue has already covered a lot of ground. For better or worse, this comic saga shows us these Burtonverse characters actually having a conversation for the first time, while they're under siege. We'll see Gordon again, so I expect to see him and Batman interact with each other once more.

I'll read the second issue whenever I get the chance.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 13 Aug  2021, 14:37
I read the first issue last night. Not too bad, although my only criticism is there is already quite A LOT happening while this saga is just getting started. I felt there is a lot to take in and read a few scenes again.

Spoilers in white:


I read some theories elsewhere that speculated the female cop who was gathering all the Batman evidence would be Barbara Gordon, but I was expecting something a lot less predictable. That doesn't necessarily make it a criticism though. I am a bit surprised that Harvey Dent is her fiance, and Commissioner Gordon doesn't think too fondly of him.

I do enjoy how Harvey Dent is getting an arc, which was expected. Some people may feel at odds over his agenda against Batman, but I think it would make sense over time. In B89, it's possible he was willing to put aside any skepticism towards Batman during the Joker crisis. But as time goes on and the events of BR appear to start a pattern, I don't think it would be too surprising that Harvey now perceives Batman as a menace to society. Not only does Batman cause collateral damage, which is even more costly as the crime he stops, there are times when people may resent him for not being around when they need him, such as Harvey and Barbara looking at the Batmobile passing by, right after they survived a mugging attempt.

Notice that unlike the usual backstory we read of Harvey Dent, the coin is not a symbol of psychological and emotional abuse, but rather a fond memory growing up as a poor kid in the local community.

The call to bring in the National Guard to hunt down Batman while restoring peace in Gotham City reminds me of The Dark Knight Returns. You can still feel the Miller influence going by some of the Easter eggs, such as the Mutant goons in the background during the Halloween parade. I even spotted some Tim Burton references, I could've sworn I saw Wynona Ryder as Lydia Deetz in Beetlejuice in one of the panel, and even another kid looked he was dressing up as the Penguin.

Judging by Batman interrogating the guy stealing some goods to take care of his baby sister and Robin's introduction - as well as Dent visiting the local neighbourhood - I wouldn't be surprised if we get more social commentary within the black community. The man who Dent grew up with did mention that no kid looks up to Harvey as an example, but rather somebody who defected to the other crowd to impress. So maybe the next couple of chapters will explore more of the classism and social politics of Gotham City, together with the issues surrounding Robin going around and protecting the poorer neighbourhoods. That's not to say it will suddenly go full on SJW though. I believe the writing will be a lot more tactful than that.

I do wish we would've gotten more scenes of Batman and Commissioner Gordon before the they had cut off their communication lines. But I understand there is a big story ahead, and the first issue has already covered a lot of ground. For better or worse, this comic saga shows us these Burtonverse characters actually having a conversation for the first time, while they're under siege. We'll see Gordon again, so I expect to see him and Batman interact with each other once more.

I'll read the second issue whenever I get the chance.

I agree 100% I think the socio-economical aspect of Dent is not only a bit refreshing (we did just get the Long Halloween adaptation not too long ago) but it makes Billy dee's Dent that much more unique. I'll have to find Samms Batman 2 script.

If this comic sells well it'll be interesting to see where this goes. I wonder if Daniel Waters would be interested in writing a story?

#4

"Written by SAM HAMM
Art by JOE QUINONES
Cover by JOE QUINONES
Variant cover by BABS TARR

Someone's hot on Bruce Wayne's heels, out to prove his connection to Batman once and for all! Meanwhile, Harvey Dent plans his next steps for Gotham with just the simple flip of a coin. What does he have in store for Gotham, and can Batman twist probability in his favor?"

(https://13thdimension.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Batman-89-Cv4-580x880.jpg)

(https://13thdimension.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/BM89_Cv4_var_00421-580x892.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E88mlzAWYAE9oMf?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9Av_nwX0AUssea?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 17 Aug  2021, 20:38
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E88mlzAWYAE9oMf?format=jpg&name=large)

Nice touch.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9MkJsBXsAYgvh7?format=jpg&name=large)

Spoiler: I heard that Amazon just leaked that the Joker is coming back! I'm intrigued.

I'm having trouble verifying that, though.

Edit: Someone read some generic text and assumed. May or may not be true.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9gepWNWUAIDRih?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9mV-gNXEAMGFWx?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9kTtyfXEAQxcQe?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9sM-4nX0AUUuDV?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat,  7 Aug  2021, 03:24
Awesome find!!

I added the other preview pages (now a total of 7) for fluid reading
(https://i.postimg.cc/5QSnBPjh/01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5QSnBPjh) (https://i.postimg.cc/hXjpm1nY/02.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hXjpm1nY) (https://i.postimg.cc/ZWMjxvK5/03.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZWMjxvK5) (https://i.postimg.cc/rdRjnyKC/04.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdRjnyKC) (https://i.postimg.cc/BtTYfvNm/05.webp) (https://postimg.cc/BtTYfvNm) (https://i.postimg.cc/jLR8xrFt/06.webp) (https://postimg.cc/jLR8xrFt) (https://i.postimg.cc/RNGgqbkf/07.webp) (https://postimg.cc/RNGgqbkf)

SPOILERS: (I know this issue has been out for weeks now, but I thought I'd hide the following comment in white just in case nobody else has read it yet)

Some ScreenRant blogger has gotten his panties tied up in a bunch because he thought Batman killed those helicopter pilots on page six. But if you look at the bottom right corner of the page carefully, you can see two people (a man in full view and another man's leg) have jumped out of the helicopter as it explodes. This shows me the culprits have survived, albeit barely. The only other deaths that were reported during the news bulletin that Bruce and Harvey were watching confirmed a security guard who fell out from of the stolen vans and another guard who suffered a fractured skull.

Unless I'm missing something here, I think it's safe to say Batman didn't kill those hijackers.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-EzsaGWQAEfyI3?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-LMJq8XIAM862E?format=jpg&name=900x900)

It appears that by issue 4 Barbara Gordon is going to at least know that Bruce Wayne and Batman have a connection, hence all of these teases of her looking at his stuff. I think issue 2 is going to feature Batman's unmasking during his escape from the national guard, and that is gong to be how Babs ends up with the cowl. I suspect the confrontation that Batman has with the troops will resemble the one he has with the police in BATMAN II, which was retooled for BATMAN RETURNS. In Hamm's version Batman is unmasked and ends up at Robin's hideout. Perhaps another encounter is coming, Batman also rides a horse, which is something Sam has been trying to get into the official canon forever. Be on the lookout.

Issue 2 preview. Spoilers ahead!

https://13thdimension.com/batman-89-2-harvey-dent-hunts-down-batmans-secret-identity-in-this-sneak-peek/

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-9FFsgXMAQxLpu?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_G27jYX0Ao5ebH?format=jpg&name=medium)

Issue #2 is longer with more going on. It blows up the Burtonverse ballon a lot, while I think retaining the source material's spirit. For example, the opening sequence being a twist on his Axis escape.

Bruce as a philanthropist, spurred on by the death of a youngster, and his own personal experience with gun violence. This kills two birds with one stone: making Bruce more of a public business figure, while commenting again on his origins.
Bruce wears a balaclava and keeps batarangs in the boot. Feels like a straightforward way to solve the Batman appearing in daylight issue. He's getting involved in minor situations while still maintaining the mystique of the batsuit - by not wearing it.
The giant coin is moved into the cave. Not sure how I feel about such a concept being adapted in a more serious universe, but I'll go with it. It could tie in well with Two-Face in this particular story.
It seems like the Batman inspired gangs burn down the garage. Harvey runs inside and will blame Batman for inspiring their vigilantism.
Catwoman is still slicing up faces and is on good terms with Batman.

Some thoughts on the second issue.

It's nice to see the Shreck family get a mention. Will Chip appear in a later issue?

Dent continues to be the central focus of the story, which is consistent with the villains taking centre stage in the Burton movies. I'm enjoying his storyline so far and looking forward to seeing how his villainous side manifests in the upcoming issues. The final panel showing the liquid trickling towards his face felt like a nod to Nolan's The Dark Knight.

The Batman copycats are another plot point salvaged from Hamm's Batman II script, while Bruce wearing a balaclava in daytime harkens back to a deleted sequence from his original Batman '89 screenplay. The idea of Bruce becoming more socially aware and using his wealth to help the city's disadvantaged reflects another subplot in Hamm's Batman II script.

The political themes are a tad predicable so far and pretty much what you'd expect from a modern US comic: all the criminals, street thugs and looters are portrayed as white, and blame for racial inequality is placed solely on systemic inequity (as opposed to presenting a more nuanced and complex analysis of the various socioeconomic and cultural causes).

Not too much to say about Selina yet. We knew she was returning thanks to all the previews, so it wasn't a surprise. Hopefully we'll learn more about what she's been up to in the next issue.

I'm still not really feeling the visual character of Burton's Gotham yet, especially when compared to how well Jerry Ordway captured it in his adaptation of the 1989 film. It doesn't have the nightmarish atmosphere, there's little to no chiaroscuro lighting, and some of the fashions appear too modern and generic. Note how it was meant to be Halloween in the first issue, and yet all the trees in the second issue are covered in bright green leaves as though it were summertime. I'm also not keen on the way Keaton's face is drawn. He looks good in the cowl, but unmasked his head seems a little too thin and his features too aquiline.

The Robin storyline is intriguing. At this stage I'd like to know more about his background and personality. So far he's been very mysterious, but it's time we learnt more about him as a character. I expect we will in the next issue.

Overall, I thought it was an ok second issue. Not great, not bad. I think we'll get to the meat of the story in the next issue with Dent's transformation and a proper catch-up between Bruce and Selina.

I won't comment too much on specifics just yet, but I am very happy with how things are progressing. So far both issues feel like Sam Hamm's Batman more than Burton's, but that's okay. Sam Hamm unfiltered is still authentic to this universe in a way that only Hamm can provide, and while seeing Daniel Waters do another take would be special, Hamm is the architect of this universe and it feels right. No new addition feels like an interloper, rather it comes across as something we just didn't know yet. I wish Bruce had more opportunity to play with Keaton's charisma and humor, but the story being as dark and serious from the start doesn't afford much opportunity.

Catwoman seems very much in character so far, which was the one thing that really concerned me going in. Her appearance was brief, but it seems Hamm is willing to work with who Waters made her. Good. Also, did anyone else catch Bruce's slip up? Harvey and Barbara are a heartbeat away from having Batman's identity now. They were interrupted, and it seems Harvey is going to be Two Face before too long now. Two Face who knows who Batman is. I suspect that all the attention paid to the penny (which I thought was kinda weird at first) will pay off with an eventual visit to the Batcave.

All in all I'm super impressed and I love it.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 14 Sep  2021, 14:15So far both issues feel like Sam Hamm's Batman more than Burton's, but that's okay.

That's a good way of describing it. The tone is very similar to Hamm's scripts before Burton had them revised.

One other thing to comment on in issue 2 – Dr. Q is clearly meant to be the Burtonverse Harleen Quinzel. Her presence lends weight to the rumours that the Joker might return later in the series.

Also to note, we have a general idea "when" this takes place as the PlayStation was released on September 9, 1995 in the U.S. This is also the same year that Batman Forever was released (which also had a bank robbery involving helicopters, two-face, and Halloween) so this is shaping up to be an interesting parallel. Not to mention the Sonar Suit Easter egg (which was already teased a few months ago).

Harvey's story continues to be of interest as he has the most fleshed out in terms on the general story (of which he's being pulled at both ends). He's not against white people (clearly) but also being portrayed as a sell out on both sides. It's a balancing act that, as we see, he might not won. It makes me wonder how his duel personality will be difference from other incarnations of the character. I really hope Billy Dee Williams is keeping up (I don't think he's once mentioned the comic on social media (if he knows about it?)

It should be noted that although he was refered to as Richard Drake in Quinones' original sketches, Robin has been officially identified as Drake Winston.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 14 Sep  2021, 15:33
The tone is very similar to Hamm's scripts before Burton had them revised.

That is true, but I'd rather him than some other random nobody who has no prior attachment whatsoever working on the Burton series. Which is what we have with Quinones. I generally do like his art, but agree that Ordway would have been the best option. His B89 adaption truly captured the dirt and decay of Furst's Gotham.

I always remember Keaton wanting to remove dialogue rather than add it - and as such I still think they're having Batman talk too much. If someone was in trouble I don't think he'd shout out "kid, over here!" He would simply make the rescue attempt and let his actions speak. Keaton's Batman would have to open up somewhat over time, but at the core he is a silent movie monster type.

That all said, a continuation isn't going to be perfect, especially when we consider our own visualizations of characters and unseen events. But I think they're getting more right than wrong.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 15 Sep  2021, 00:39
I always remember Keaton wanting to remove dialogue rather than add it - and as such I still think they're having Batman talk too much. If someone was in trouble I don't think he'd shout out "kid, over here!" He would simply make the rescue attempt and let his actions speak. Keaton's Batman would have to open up somewhat over time, but at the core he is a silent movie monster type.

Yeah that was a difference I was expecting. Based on everything I've read there are certain characteristics of Keaton's Batman that came about as they were filming. I suspected that the decision to cut Batman's dialogue down was one of those characteristics.

I read Hamm's script for the 89 film not too long ago and Batman talks a lot in that script. You almost have to view the Batman in this comic to be more of a continuation of the character from Hamm's scripts rather than the one we saw in live action. The only way it could've been a real continuation is if Burton and Keaton had input as well.

Having said all of that, I am enjoying this story so far.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Wed, 15 Sep  2021, 22:49
Yeah that was a difference I was expecting. Based on everything I've read there are certain characteristics of Keaton's Batman that came about as they were filming. I suspected that the decision to cut Batman's dialogue down was one of those characteristics.

I read Hamm's script for the 89 film not too long ago and Batman talks a lot in that script. You almost have to view the Batman in this comic to be more of a continuation of the character from Hamm's scripts rather than the one we saw in live action. The only way it could've been a real continuation is if Burton and Keaton had input as well.

Having said all of that, I am enjoying this story so far.

Indeed. Expanding Keatonman's character comes at the risk of making him into something generic, which he isn't. I'm open to seeing different things, but the translation should feel authentic and less of a sudden jump in tone. Especially since this comic isn't taking place very long after Returns. BTAS happened around the same time as B89-BR, but aesthetics and sound aside, they're different products. The Burton world has a specific edge – the world feels like a supernatural slum and its Batman and Bruce are very private. I hope they keep that in mind.

I didn't like this one nearly as much. Not as much Batman, and the origin of Robin's name was a bit redundant. I think we all got it: "he's..robbin him". They didn't have to keep banging on the line over and over. The political themes were so over the top comical, it felt like it was written by a random on twitter. Gotham's aesthetic feels less and less like the Burtonverse.


I did like Catwoman/Selina, though. And the mention of Dr. Q(Harley) was pretty cool too. Hopefully #3 picks up for me. I liked #1, so hopefully this was just a dip in quality.

Think this is Billy Dee Williams first acknowledgement of the comic? Still cool!

(https://i.postimg.cc/sf9dHbcf/Screenshot-20210918-213408-Instagram.jpg)

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sun, 19 Sep  2021, 01:36
Think this is Billy Dee Williams first acknowledgement of the comic? Still cool!

(https://i.postimg.cc/sf9dHbcf/Screenshot-20210918-213408-Instagram.jpg)

Freaking sweet!!!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_rBiIEXoAAv88p?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_fYJOvWYAgmFUP?format=jpg&name=medium)
BATMAN '89 #5
WRITTEN BY SAM HAMM
ART AND COVER BY JOE QUINONES
VARIANT COVER BY ADAM HUGHES
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | 5 OF 6 | $4.99 US VARIANT (CARD STOCK)
ON SALE 12/14/2

Harvey Dent enacts his plans for Gotham! He'll overthrow the Batman and assume his rightful place as its guardian. As Batman works to stop his friend Harvey, he finds himself vastly outnumbered by the forces at Harvey's disposal. He'll need to turn to some unlikely allies if he's going to turn the tide in his favor to protect his city and save his friend!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_gkLYuWEBAEMpT?format=jpg&name=medium)
BATMAN '89 #6
WRITTEN BY SAM HAMM
ART AND COVER BY JOE QUINONES
VARIANT COVER BY JULIAN TOTINO TEDESCO
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | 6 OF 6 | $4.99 US VARIANT (CARD STOCK)
ON SALE 1/11/22

It's a battle between former friends for the heart of Gotham as Batman faces down Harvey Dent. Can Bruce save his friend before he goes too far, and what does this mean for the future of Gotham City?

I read the second issue. Solid stuff, I'm eagerly anticipating the third issue.

Quote from: Travesty on Fri, 17 Sep  2021, 13:49
I didn't like this one nearly as much. Not as much Batman, and the origin of Robin's name was a bit redundant. I think we all got it: "he's..robbin him". They didn't have to keep banging on the line over and over. The political themes were so over the top comical, it felt like it was written by a random on twitter. Gotham's aesthetic feels less and less like the Burtonverse.

The origin of Robin's name was definitely played for a joke, and not so subtle at that, but I thought the political themes were better than you're giving them credit for. If a highly opinionated, politically biased wanker from Twitter wrote this comic, they would've spent the whole time ranting on white privilege, patriarchy and even accuse Batman of not caring for the poor, as I've seen online from people who don't have the slightest clue about the character. They would've even have the thought of making him a dedicated philanthropist as Hamm is doing. Hamm's writing, in my opinion, is much more mature than that.

I will give you the lack of Burton's Gotham aesthetic is noticeable, and I hope they show more for the remainder of the story arc. I do hope we get to see Commissioner Gordon next issue, because other than that one scene in the first chapter he has been otherwise absent.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Tue, 14 Sep  2021, 16:49
Harvey's story continues to be of interest as he has the most fleshed out in terms on the general story (of which he's being pulled at both ends). He's not against white people (clearly) but also being portrayed as a sell out on both sides. It's a balancing act that, as we see, he might not won. It makes me wonder how his duel personality will be difference from other incarnations of the character.

Good point. The social crisis puts Dent at odds in two occasions. At first, the leaders of the local council see him spurring outrage as a cynical agenda to satisfy his own political ambitions, and how his words might endanger the community to police brutality. Then when he does speak from the heart, he is condemned of using the police for political gain. Trying to please both sides in a complex situation is a win-lose situation, and gives him the harsh reputation as two-faced. No pun intended.

Minor spoilers:
Batman's negative influence continues with accidental deaths and an unofficial fan club's escalating violence that is responsible for Harvey Dent's destiny as Two-Face. For this, Dent's crusade against Batman is about to become personal, which will worsen Bruce's guilt much more in the next chapter, no doubt. And since the wannabe Batman gangsters have Drake in their crosshairs, I suspect Bruce will have his work cut out to gain his trust.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_w7tNTVgAsPX1t?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_vtmdEXsAYzBKl?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_fYJOvWYAgmFUP?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_vtmdEXsAYzBKl?format=jpg&name=large)

They sure are overhauling it on references to previous works. The first one is based on a piece of promotional art that was used for merchandising like coloring books and puzzles. The second is taken from the Batman Returns Diet Coke commercial.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FABdBs8WUAA8-FT?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FAUJAcDX0AYlcnY?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FAFYrY1VQAEacaj?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Tue, 14 Sep  2021, 16:49
Also to note, we have a general idea "when" this takes place as the PlayStation was released on September 9, 1995 in the U.S. This is also the same year that Batman Forever was released (which also had a bank robbery involving helicopters, two-face, and Halloween) so this is shaping up to be an interesting parallel. Not to mention the Sonar Suit Easter egg (which was already teased a few months ago).

Yeah, Quinones has already confirmed that this comic is taking place in the mid-Nineties, albeit rather loosely.

https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1410264836894773249

It's not a big deal, but I prefer the Burtonverse to be timeless. The biggest attraction for Burton's aesthetic is it merges the Thirties/Forties into the late Eighties/early Nineties together with his Gothic sensibilities - creating an otherworldly experience.

I saw this good video analysing the first issue and pinpointing the Easter egg references. Many of which have been already mentioned in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_d_WvmPBwA

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 28 Sep  2021, 15:03

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Tue, 14 Sep  2021, 16:49
Also to note, we have a general idea "when" this takes place as the PlayStation was released on September 9, 1995 in the U.S. This is also the same year that Batman Forever was released (which also had a bank robbery involving helicopters, two-face, and Halloween) so this is shaping up to be an interesting parallel. Not to mention the Sonar Suit Easter egg (which was already teased a few months ago).

Yeah, Quinones has already confirmed that this comic is taking place in the mid-Nineties, albeit rather loosely.

https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1410264836894773249

It's not a big deal, but I prefer the Burtonverse to be timeless. The biggest attraction for Burton's aesthetic is it merges the Thirties/Forties into the late Eighties/early Nineties together with his Gothic sensibilities - creating an otherworldly experience.

I saw this good video analysing the first issue and pinpointing the Easter egg references. Many of which have been already mentioned in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_d_WvmPBwA

Those are the guys who conducted the lovely Bachler interview. Here is there most recent easter egg hunt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO1tBNx7k8w

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FA6OE1mWEAQfVya?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBMTIsfXEAEno0k?format=jpg&name=large)

New image links for Batman '89 #3

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L7LWQAQnb0w?format=jpg&name=large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L7LWQAQnb0w?format=jpg&name=large)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L7IWQAoPL7i?format=jpg&name=large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L7IWQAoPL7i?format=jpg&name=large)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L8RXMAYJmp5?format=jpg&name=large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L8RXMAYJmp5?format=jpg&name=large)

I don't want to spoil things, so I won't post the images here but interesting to see that Dent's race into the inferno, was not the origin story for 'Two-Face' as I, and probably a good few readers, expected...unless this turns out to be Harvey's dream.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri,  8 Oct  2021, 20:16
New image links for Batman '89 #3

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L7LWQAQnb0w?format=jpg&name=large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L7LWQAQnb0w?format=jpg&name=large)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L7IWQAoPL7i?format=jpg&name=large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L7IWQAoPL7i?format=jpg&name=large)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L8RXMAYJmp5?format=jpg&name=large (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM6L8RXMAYJmp5?format=jpg&name=large)

I don't want to spoil things, so I won't post the images here but interesting to see that Dent's race into the inferno, was not the origin story for 'Two-Face' as I, and probably a good few readers, expected...unless this turns out to be Harvey's dream.

I don't have the ability to add images right now but I can confirmthat there is another image out there. He's dreaming. Bruce and Drake pull him from the fire. He's been burned it seems.

Joe Quinones has taken to his Twitter to (humorously) confirm that the Joker is dead and will stay dead. Thank God.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Sat,  9 Oct  2021, 15:05
Joe Quinones has taken to his Twitter to (humorously) confirm that the Joker is dead and will stay dead. Thank God.

Keeping him dead is the safest option right now, and people dressing up in clown gear still keeps his presence alive. I'm still open to a resurrection in a Beyond film, providing the explanation is worthy. A return decades later would have more mythic power.

In Batman '89 Harvey Dent is convinced that Batman is actually a 'hit squad' of Batmen being lead by Gordon. Here is what his imagination comes up with:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBNJCRLXIAMhvK5?format=jpg&name=large)
Harvey dreams of the multiverse!

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 11 Oct  2021, 13:42
In Batman '89 Harvey Dent is convinced that Batman is actually a 'hit squad' of Batmen being lead by Gordon. Here is what his imagination comes up with:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBNJCRLXIAMhvK5?format=jpg&name=large)
Harvey dreams of the multiverse!

Not a fan of that, at all.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 11 Oct  2021, 21:53

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 11 Oct  2021, 13:42
In Batman '89 Harvey Dent is convinced that Batman is actually a 'hit squad' of Batmen being lead by Gordon. Here is what his imagination comes up with:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBNJCRLXIAMhvK5?format=jpg&name=large)
Harvey dreams of the multiverse!

Not a fan of that, at all.

To be fair, it tis but a dream.

These references have no place anywhere and break the illusion this is a 1990s period piece continuation.

Here are my immediate thoughts on issue three. Minor spoilers ahead.

I felt lukewarm about the previous issue and I was hoping to be more positive about this one. But to be honest, I thought this was another rather middling chapter in the story. Not terrible, but not as good I'd hoped it would be. I really want to love this series, and I'm very grateful that we're even getting it, but I'm still waiting for that moment where it clicks for reasons more substantial than nostalgia.

We're now halfway through the series, and while there's been plenty of character development there still isn't much in the way of a central plot. The main antagonist still hasn't really stepped up, although the psychological groundwork has been thoroughly laid for him to do so. I thought Two-Face would finally embark on his criminal career and state his main objective in this issue (and by 'main objective' I mean his practical aim – destroy the city, kill Batman, etc – rather than a vague ideological goal), but apparently we're going to have to wait at least one more month for that. If this was a twelve-issue series, I'd be fine with the pacing. But we've only got three issues left.

I still think Harvey is the most interesting character in this story, but did he really need to spend an entire issue ruminating on quantum mechanics and parallel universes? He should have become the antagonist by now. This slow burn approach to his character arc would have worked better if there was another main villain, like the Riddler or Scarecrow, to pick up the slack. But without a central antagonist for the first half of the series, it feels like we've been left with a bunch of B-plots rather than a strong central villain-propelled A-plot. Hopefully this will change when Two-Face breaks bad in the next issue.

Regarding Catwoman, you can tell it's not Daniel Waters writing her. She doesn't really feel like Pfeiffer's version to me. Other than that one line about her psychiatrist, her dialogue is more what you'd expect from a generic comic book version of the character. Which is how Hamm wrote her in his Batman II script. This might change when we see the vulnerable Selina-side of her personality later on, but right now I'm thinking it might have been better to have left her out of this series and then perhaps have Waters write a proper Burton Catwoman comic further down the line.

Maybe it would have been better to focus on a love triangle between Bruce, Barbara and Harvey. Sure, it would have been similar to The Dark Knight, but this series is already taking so many cues from that film that I don't think it would have mattered if they'd pinched one more plot point. I don't find this particular version of Barbara terribly interesting so far, and I wish they'd develop her relationship with her father more. Speaking of which, where is Commissioner Gordon? It would be nice to see him reacting to some of the events unfolding in his city, or better yet becoming involved in them. I know Jim got sidelined a lot in the Burton-Schumacher movies, but he played a bigger role than this in the 1989 film.

In general I'm really feeling Burton's lack of involvement. The comic is missing his twisted gothic sensibility, both in terms of the visuals and the storytelling mechanics. But then I appreciate that this isn't really the third Burton Batman movie many of us were hoping for – it's Hamm's continuation, and it needs to be evaluated as such. Even on that score, if you were to strip away the Burtonverse window dressing I think it would be a fairly routine retelling of Two-Face's origin story. Imagine if Batman didn't look like Keaton and Dent didn't resemble Billy Dee Williams – would this story really stand out?

I'm starting to think this comic would have worked better if it was set between B89 and BR. Then it could have been a direct sequel to the 1989 movie. Vicki could have been the main love interest and the narrative could have depicted the breakdown of her relationship with Bruce. The Joker's reign of terror would have been fresh in everyone's memories, with some of his henchmen still at large and a vacancy existing at the head of Gotham's underworld. The transition between mayors could have been depicted, and Max Shreck could have appeared in a minor role foreshadowing his political machinations in BR. Dent's absence from BR would make more sense if he'd already become Two-Face in between films. They could even have depicted the earlier Red Triangle Gang attack on Gotham that Gordon alluded to in BR. Then, if the series was a success, they could have got Waters to work on a sequel series set after BR. That second series could have tackled Catwoman's return and Robin's origin.

Sorry to dwell on the negative. I am enjoying the series, and I'm thankful that it exists. I just wish I could think of more positive things to say about it. But it could still pick up. I suspect the best part of the story is yet to come, and that it'll really come to life in the second half. I just wish the events of the first three issues had been condensed into two so that we could have gotten to the meat of the story much sooner.

I think #3 kicks it up another notch and I'm loving it so far. I was pleased (though not shocked) that they refused to pull the trigger on Harvey and instead allow for the descent, then end the issue with a decision rather than a payoff.

Catwoman and Robin are great and in Burton fashion they allow for Bruce Wayne to now properly have a more active involvement in the story as it starts to roll.

It was clear from jump street that Hamm was going to be more traditional. He always was more in line with the face values of the Batman mythos than Daniel Waters. That's not an out of line thing to say, nor is it an issue. He is careful about what he adds and how he adds it. It feels natural largely because he remains the chief and original architect of this version of the Batman universe.

Catwoman is more traditional, but Hamm uses her motivations from Returns to make the transition. Smart. It pointedly retains the schism between Batman/Catwoman's ideologies which is where Waters came the closest to tradition. Very smart. I also have to point out that, for my money, B89's Catwoman is nothing like her original Hamm Batman II counterpart. BII's Catwoman was an unsympathetic sociopath with no redeeming qualities. She was no more than a cutthroat assassin and fetishist who liked Batman because it was 'kinky.' Already, B89's has demonstrated that she is a genuine love interest whose alignment is that of a vengeful antihero who has even taken a stab at confronting the Batman wannabes. That isn't Batman II. Not in the slightest. Way to go, Hamm. Keep it up!

Hamm's definitely not recycling his Batman II Catwoman, and you make a good point about her motivations. I think for me the main issue is that I always found the Burtonverse Selina more interesting than the Catwoman persona. That vulnerable confused side of her, who is awkward around men, is uncertain of her place in the world, and is struggling to reconcile the two conflicting sides of her fragmented identity, is what distinguishes the Burton Catwoman from all the other versions. So far we haven't seen that side of her in the Batman 89 comic. I think we will in the upcoming issues, and perhaps then it'll start to feel more like Pfeiffer's Catwoman for me. But so far, her dialogue – which lacks Waters' distinctive spark of acerbic wit – could have been spoken by any version of Catwoman. It could be Pfeiffer's version, but it could just as easily be Hathaway's Selina chewing Baleman out for fraternising with corrupt one-percenters. I do like the way Quinones has drawn her though.

I could be wrong about this, but I strongly suspect Catwoman's inclusion is a plot point that's been foisted on Hamm by the editors. The same goes for the inclusion of Robin. Hamm's a good writer, and given the choice I don't think he would have chosen to base his Robin on deleted material from another writer's treatment. The editorial team most likely mandated that he use this particular version of Robin. If I'm right, then this would explain why the series is so overstuffed relative to its six-issue length. I think they're trying to juggle too many storylines at once, and this is what's slowing down the pace and making the whole thing feel unfocused. Burton quite rightly chose to cut Robin from B89 and BR for this very reason, but here I sense that wasn't an option. I'd say the cast of characters and subplots needs streamlining, or else the series needs to be extended beyond six issues.

Just to reiterate, I don't think issues two and three were bad. I think issue one was a good start to the series, but that issues two and three were mediocre. If things pick up in issue four, as I'm expecting, then the series as a whole could still be a success. One thing I am concerned about is the riot storyline. Remember last year when people were arguing online about how Batman would respond to the George Floyd protests? If Hamm attempts to answer that question in this comic, the result could prove divisive.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBsp0q-XsAI42W0?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBsAppQXEAEne6z?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 15 Oct  2021, 13:31
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBsAppQXEAEne6z?format=jpg&name=large)

This might well be the sexiest-looking Catwoman ever. The yellow border's a nice touch too, and evokes the old Batman 89 trading cards.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 15 Oct  2021, 13:46
This might well be the sexiest-looking Catwoman ever.

I'd have to skim around other comics to be sure, but indeed, that's my initial thought too. I like that they're taking their time fleshing things out with Harvey, but hope things don't feel rushed towards the end. The Batman/Catwoman dialogue didn't feel authentic to me, and I'm also apprehensive about how they'll handle these riots. How things wrap up will play a huge role in my overall assessment. I have to admit though, your sequel to the original film idea is great, and would've justified the B89 moniker even more.

Those sketches of Selina Kyle resemble more like Sharon Stone than Michelle Pfeiffer. I'm getting Basic Instinct vibes by looking at the first two sketches on the left.

(https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/605254ec3e4b33647cb4abfb/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/Sharon-Stone-Memoir-Excerpt-Lede.jpg)

I read the latest issue. I thought it was the weakest out of the three chapters released so far, but it's not terrible. It's just a mixed bag.

SPOILERS:

The Harvey Dent backstory continues to develop rather nicely. I liked how he lived the perfect political life he could've asked for a year since he rescued Drake from the fire, when in reality, he had been unconscious for only a few minutes. It reminds me of this story a guy told on Reddit, who claimed he thought he spent the next ten years living a great life, until he regained consciousness from an assault he had suffered moments earlier.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/oc7rc/have_you_ever_felt_a_deep_personal_connection_to/c3g4ot3/?context=3

The explosion that erupted from the garage and struck Harvey reminded me a little bit of how he got disfigured in the end of Two-Face Part I in BTAS. Nice to see a Prince homage that was traced wearing a pro-Dent T-Shirt during Dent's dream. I totally bought how Dent dreamed of all these delusions of living in different universes and quantum physics because of the sulfuric acid he breathed in during the fire would've contributed an enormous factor to his psychosis.

What holds the issue back is the dialogue. It was too soapy for my liking, and Batman and Catwoman's encounter on the rooftop was the worst offender, in my opinion. The only thing you could appreciate is Catwoman implying she's seeing Dr. Q, aka Harley Quinn as a callback from the previous issue.

So the saga is halfway done. I hope we get to read a compelling reason for Catwoman's return and see Barbara speaking to her dad.

I was hoping to see more adventures following Batman in this, and instead, it's just all the other characters with a tiny bit of Batman.

I dunno, I haven't been enjoying this as much as I thought I would. It's only 6 issues, and we just got to the Two-Face transformation, while we're still juggling Robin and Catwoman. Batman feels like an afterthought.

Sweet Jesus!
BATMAN '89 #6
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBwKLjhXsAU6W3p?format=jpg&name=medium)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 15 Oct  2021, 16:36
Sweet Jesus!
BATMAN '89 #6

Best thing to come out of this so far!

I know no one but me care about this, but I like that You can see both the Cathedral and the Old Wayne Tower at the bottom.  ;)

I wonder what the chance of an audio version or even just hearing Billy Dee read some line. Really interested to see how he'd play the character. He deserves more then the Lego Batman Movie (though I do love his breif inclusion)

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 15 Oct  2021, 14:28
Those sketches of Selina Kyle resemble more like Sharon Stone than Michelle Pfeiffer. I'm getting Basic Instinct vibes by looking at the first two sketches on the left.

(https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/605254ec3e4b33647cb4abfb/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/Sharon-Stone-Memoir-Excerpt-Lede.jpg)

Kinda looks like the artist was probably going for something of a merger between Michelle and Sharon. Akin to how the Catwoman suit is something of a merge between the Returns suit, and the Catwoman suit from TAS. I think we came better when Dick Tracy knocked up the original choice, Annette Benning, and Michelle Pfeiffer got cast instead. However, Stone would have made a good choice for 1992. Her sex appeal was absolutely phenomenal in that time.

Another thing I'm hoping for from the second half of this series is some fight scenes. So far, Batman hasn't hit anyone. He's been on the receiving end of an attack from Robin, but he hasn't actually thrown a single punch or kick himself. Issue three ended with the perfect setup for a fight against the rioters. Now I want to see Batman bust some skulls.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 15 Oct  2021, 14:17I have to admit though, your sequel to the original film idea is great, and would've justified the B89 moniker even more.

Thanks. Another benefit to making it a direct sequel to the 1989 film is that it could have explored the fate of Alexander Knox. What happened to him in between the two movies? The CW Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover would have us believe he's still alive and living in Gotham in the present day, but I don't necessarily take that as canon.

If the Batman '89 comic was a success, they could have followed it with a Batman '92 miniseries in 2022 written by Daniel Waters. That would have helped build hype in the run-up to The Flash.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 15 Oct  2021, 16:36
Sweet Jesus!
BATMAN '89 #6
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBwKLjhXsAU6W3p?format=jpg&name=medium)

Beautiful. The Burtonverse Two-Face looks perfect. :)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCHFyjTVEAIRZYN?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCKPlEzWQAoMOu1?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCPfAy4XEAELpDP?format=jpg&name=large)

Here are four other sketches Quinones drew before he chose the final poster design. The second sketch that has Batman posing with his forearm covering his mouth reminds me of Batman Forever's theatrical poster.

https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1449069878271520770

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBwhP-XXMAAEuM3?format=jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBwhP-aWUAEBMoh?format=jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBwhP-bXoAQoZdO?format=jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBwhP-ZXIAISZjc?format=jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCaEvLnXIAUUx1j?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCaPeZEXIAIfR2U?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed, 20 Oct  2021, 13:57
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCHFyjTVEAIRZYN?format=jpg&name=medium)

Quinones said that sketch is paying homage to this Robin front cover by Brian Bolland.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCHGtTCWYAIKdjn?format=jpg&name=large)

Meanwhile, here is Drake looking smug.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FC1qLcyVkAYG3gB?format=jpg)

Both of the Robin pics

I like them, I like them alot. 

Paul, This site needs a like button.

Here's a better look at Robin's updated costume.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDH7_xfWEAQOqmF?format=jpg)

It retains the BR armor with a bit of red spray paint, and the gloves from the B89 costume. I like how it still retains that touch of the original Tim Drake Robin suit.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDyDciCXEAUkl0Q?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FD3n-9DXsAw-7tm?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FD3n-9DXIAARDEW?format=jpg&name=medium)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FD3n-9EXsAIQGIh?format=jpg&name=large)

Being a 'protester' doesn't make you untouchable. It's this mostly peaceful Robin who starts trouble with the spray paint, and soon after a petrol bomb is hurled which takes out two vehicles. Police response would be absolutely justified there. But what's the response from Gordon? To stand down. No police engagement at all. So the crowd could loot and burn, and the GCPD would have to stand down to let the mayhem unfold? I knew this would component would be garbage.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  7 Dec  2021, 13:36
Being a 'protester' doesn't make you untouchable. It's this mostly peaceful Robin who starts trouble with the spray paint, and soon after a petrol bomb is hurled which takes out two vehicles. Police response would be absolutely justified there. But what's the response from Gordon? To stand down. No police engagement at all. So the crowd could loot and burn, and the GCPD would have to stand down to let the mayhem unfold? I knew this would component would be garbage.

Unfortunately, you have forgotten that before any trouble starts, Bullock (in panels 2, 3, and 4) decides that he's going to to prevent the protesters from reaching city hall. As it turns out, this is in a direct contravention of his orders from Gordon. He was to provide safe passage for the protesters. He claims that there is new intel, that there are trouble makers in the crowd, but he breaks the chain of command on this unsubstantiated claim. In fact, trouble only starts when he disobeys a direct order from Gordon. Bullock had orders in hand, the protesters were blindsided (panel 10) by this turn of events as they had been in contact with Gordon and made him aware of their intentions. Robin's retaliation is nonlethal and Gordon correctly orders Bullock (who has essentially gone rogue) to stand down. Gordon then takes the heat entirely on his shoulders,

Contravening orders is an issue between two characters, Bullock and Gordon. At the point the spray cans are distributed and used by the crowd against the Police, and the bomb is used against their vehicles, the Police didn't lay a finger on anybody. They are allowed to be in the street regardless. The fact the crowd respond that way at all and escalate the situation makes me question their morals. A leader is someone who responds to changing circumstances. Regardless of the initial order, it should've been revised once the crowd turned ugly. But Gordon would be happy to leave his men to the wolves. And Batman himself is away at home taking care of a cat, rather than overseeing the situation.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  7 Dec  2021, 20:13
Contravening orders is an issue between two characters,

No it is not, not at all. Proper order is essential in a situation where an armed authority exists. Gordon is the leader of that authority and his lieutenant disobeyed his orders and started the conflict. It was not at all a private matter. The protesters organized lawfully and were authorized to take the walk to city hall. Bullock made it clear that any advancement toward that end would be met with violence. His illegal commandeering of civil authority with hostile intent is an act he takes without just cause. He preempts a threat that at that point did not yet exist.

A protester is not untouchable. A police officer cannot break the law.

I'm not condoning the firebombing, but it is obvious that Gordon takes the proper action of going to the source of the disruption and deescalating it. He takes responsibility and now it appears that he might subject to legal action because the police acted against an authorized protest. Bullock acted illegally.

We're never going to agree here. Taking action against officers and their equipment isn't legal, regardless of any chain of command orders and the actions of the crowd cannot be justified. Are they going to pay for cleaning costs and damages? And if not why not? At the point Gordon tells them to stand down he has no idea if the firebombing antics will continue. I thought this series started out okay, but it's gone off the rails. I'm just not feeling it much now. Superman '78 is schooling '89, and like Ghostbusters Afterlife, I'm okay with pretending it doesn't exist.

I've read the fourth chapter tonight.

I was disappointed, to be honest. Batman is back in the Batcave at the start of the latest issue despite fires erupting all over Gotham City at the end of the last issue? I know Catwoman mentioned it's not a situation either of them could do to help, when their little rooftop reunion got interrupted, but it's still underwhelming. I don't like the idea that Batman wouldn't intervene in violent riots. But maybe that's what the Robin arc is there for, to get Batman more involved?

Commissioner Gordon made his return after gone missing in the last couple of issues, but I'm disappointed that he isn't given much of an arc so far. I suppose you could say these comics continue the Burton films' trait in treating Gordon as a perfunctory character, for better or worse. But you would think these comics would do more to explore Gordon after the National Guard was brought in, and his authority was already undermined because of his co-operation with Batman. Honestly, I'm surprised he's still on duty and was able to keep Bullock in check. I thought city hall would've asked for his resignation by now after the whole Batman and Halloween night fiasco. Not to mention his apparent estrangement with his daughter Barbara, whom he mentioned he hasn't spoken to. We've yet to see those two interact with each other.

Speaking of the National Guard...what happened with them? Did they just take off and leave as soon as Dent got injured? The whole sub-plot of them being brought in to arrest Batman has been neglected.

I appreciate how Hamm is incorporating social and political themes in these comics, but I'm starting to think six issues are not enough to tell this story. Maybe these comics should've been twelve issues long instead. As it stands, Batman '89 is lacking a cohesive story to tackle all of these sub-plots in a satisfying manner. As much as I enjoyed the first couple of issues, I got to say I felt the first issue had too much story going on and you needed to re-read it to soak it in. There is only two more issues left to go, but I hate to say it, I'm finding Batman '89 more and more disjointed, in spite of the good backstory for Harvey Dent thus far. Which again, this might have to do with the short amount of issues this saga was given to work with.

Didnt catch him returing to the cave after the explostions in the last issue (really need to read these in one go). That seems odd, but it seems like he's checking his own history and still bogged by his guilt. I does shows Batmans obessevie nature, and is in part with the detecive scenes in 89 and Returns.

I love the unfinished painting of the Waynes and wish that gets ported over to the flash (but don't expect it too). It's another way of doing the red book.

I feel this story looses it's footing a bit because it's become mostly about politics and two side stories about Dent and Batman. I feel too much is going on and it needs more than 2 issues left.

I wonder if this will get a another run with different villans? If it does, I hope they learn from the mistakes of this run

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  8 Dec  2021, 15:19
Didnt catch him returing to the cave after the explostions in the last issue (really need to read these in one go). That seems odd, but it seems like he's checking his own history and still bogged by his guilt. I does shows Batmans obessevie nature, and is in part with the detecive scenes in 89 and Returns.

"The city is starting to burn," Batman says at the end of Issue #3 while overlooking the city, seeing flames and smoke rising from below. He then abandons his post as Gotham's guardian to feed a cat in the batcave. That's very hard for me to believe. It's nothing short of a disgrace. Batman's entire being is tied up in the wellbeing of his city. Nothing comes close to that mission. It's his obsession. It's especially disappointing when the comic was in dire need of some Batman action.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  9 Dec  2021, 06:13

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  8 Dec  2021, 15:19
Didnt catch him returing to the cave after the explostions in the last issue (really need to read these in one go). That seems odd, but it seems like he's checking his own history and still bogged by his guilt. I does shows Batmans obessevie nature, and is in part with the detecive scenes in 89 and Returns.

"The city is starting to burn," Batman says at the end of Issue #3 while overlooking the city, seeing flames and smoke rising from below. He then abandons his post as Gotham's guardian to feed a cat in the batcave. That's very hard for me to believe. It's nothing short of a disgrace. Batman's entire being is tied up in the wellbeing of his city. Nothing comes close to that mission. It's his obsession. It's especially disappointing when the comic was in dire need of some Batman action.

Yea, that seems way off. Thinking about the comic, I feel like it's more of a first draft for a batman movie

I don't have too much to add. It was another ok issue, but for me the series on the whole is shaping up to be a disappointment. We've had four out of six issues and there still isn't much of a central plot tying things together. The main villain (if indeed Two-Face is the main villain) still hasn't presented a clearly-stated objective. Batman still hasn't thrown a single punch or kick (so far the only hand-to-hand combat he's performed entailed Bruce throwing a cushion at Drake before suplexing him). There are still too many characters and separate plot strands that aren't coming together cohesively. Barbara's relationship with her father is still woefully underdeveloped. Selina's inclusion feels tacked on, as does Bullock's. Bruce lacks the taciturn intensity of his cinematic counterpart.

On the plus side, Two-Face looks great. His appearance is consistent with the other Burtonverse villains and I like to imagine that this is what he would have looked like had he appeared in the movies.


But the series as a whole just isn't really clicking with me. It's not terrible, but it could have been so much better. The Superman '78 comic feels truer to its respective universe and is doing a better job of telling a pacy story with a threatening villain and cliff-hanger endings that make you want to read the next issue. By contrast, the Batman '89 comic is just meandering along a seemingly directionless path. I know that Superman needs to save Metropolis from Brainiac in order to conclude the plot of the S78 comic, but I don't know what Batman needs to accomplish in order to resolve the storyline in the B89 comic. Because there isn't much of a storyline to begin with. This is where the lack of central plot and clearly-stated character objectives becomes a problem.

I also can't help thinking back over all the Burtonverse fan comics I've read over the years, many of which did a better job of capturing the look and feel of the movies than this official comic has. For example,

Batman Continues


Batman: Strange Shades


Batman Enigma


There was also that beautifully painted fan comic in which the Burton Batman faced Mr. Freeze, but I can't remember what it was called. It used to be in the site gallery, but it doesn't seem to be online anymore.

Anyway, to repeat something I said earlier in the thread, I think this series would have worked much better if it had been a straightforward sequel to the 1989 film that took place before the events of Batman Returns. Then they could have left out Barbara, Robin and Catwoman and just focused on the Two-Face storyline while utilising pre-established supporting players such as Vicki, Mayor Borg, Knox and Shreck.

The series could have taken place 6-12 months after the 1989 film, with Two-Face rising up to fill the gap in Gotham's underworld that was left by Grissom and the Joker. Two-Face could have assassinated Mayor Borg, Vicki's relationship with Bruce could have deteriorated to the extent that she leaves Gotham with Knox, and the series could have ended on an ominous note with the Red Triangle Gang arriving at the city limits. It could even have shown Max sending Fred Atkins on 'extended vacation'. Needless to say it would have required better pacing and tighter plotting than the series we got, and the art would have needed to more accurately reflect the visual style of the films. But I think it would have worked much better.

Instead the series we're getting – so far – feels bloated and unfocused, with too many characters and subplots. Maybe it'll pick up in the last two issues, but right now I feel it's shaping up to be a missed opportunity. I'm still undecided about whether or not to accept it as part of the canon.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  9 Dec  2021, 06:13
"The city is starting to burn," Batman says at the end of Issue #3 while overlooking the city, seeing flames and smoke rising from below. He then abandons his post as Gotham's guardian to feed a cat in the batcave. That's very hard for me to believe. It's nothing short of a disgrace. Batman's entire being is tied up in the wellbeing of his city. Nothing comes close to that mission. It's his obsession. It's especially disappointing when the comic was in dire need of some Batman action.

That bothered me too. Every issue of the Superman '78 comic has ended on a cliff-hanger that set up the next part of the story, but the Batman '89 comic has no comparable dramatic hook tying the issues together. The ending of issue 3 made us think we were finally going to see Batman in a fight scene, but issue 4 never follows up on it. Then issue 4 itself ends on a rather flat scene of Bruce and Drake talking in the Batcave. It's not much a hook to bring readers back for issue 5.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Fri, 10 Dec  2021, 04:04
Yea, that seems way off. Thinking about the comic, I feel like it's more of a first draft for a batman movie

The whole series has a whiff of first draft syndrome, as if Hamm had been rushed to finish the scripts before deadline.

Here are more Easter egg analysis on the last two issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXkaKeJVzHE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bwWUGFbS_I

The way this story is unfolding, there are so many Easter eggs and homages being paid to but a lack of a captivating, focused story.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  8 Dec  2021, 15:19
Didnt catch him returing to the cave after the explostions in the last issue (really need to read these in one go). That seems odd, but it seems like he's checking his own history and still bogged by his guilt.

I've been thinking about this, and I'm not convinced it's a valid excuse. Yeah, maybe Harvey's words over Batman causing collateral damage after the Halloween attack had gotten to Bruce, and he certainly feels guilty over that accidental death he indirectly caused in the second issue, but it's still out of character for him to go straight home while Gotham City suffers from arson attacks. Imagine if Batman in BR suddenly stopped his pursuit of the Penguin because he was so wrapped with his own guilt over not being able to save the Ice Princess? Or if he took a break from crime-fighting because he kicks himself for not looking when those two muggers attacked that tourist dad at the start of B89? No, Batman suffers from failures and tragedies all the time, but he puts his guilt behind him whenever a threat emerges. Him saying to Vicki "I try to avoid all this, but I can't" sums it up.

Now, I did say in my last post that maybe the Robin arc is supposed to inspire Batman to become more involved, or as Drake puts it, "terrorizing bad guys is a dead end, you got to inspire people to stand up on their own...to make the kind of world they want to live in". That's all well and good, but that still doesn't explain why Batman would suddenly go MIA while fires are lit up in the city.

I'm not happy with how the focus on the arsonists shifted to Bullock and the protests in the beginning of issue four. At the end of the third issue, I thought they were caused by those violent Batman copycats, because they tracked down Drake's whereabouts and started the fires at his auto shop, and I assumed they could be setting off more fires to continue their revenge. And maybe that's still the case, as you can see the protesters marching down the street holding signs saying "Cops Talk, Arsonists Walk". But instead of revealing who these arsonists are, it seems we have Robin setting off a firebomb to disrupt Bullock's planned attack against the protesters. To be honest, when I read issue four for the first time, I thought these fires were being set because there were riots happening in the streets, and completely misunderstood how people were protesting against the arsonists. The transition between issue three's ending to the opening and the whole duration of issue four doesn't flow very well at all.

If it were up to me, I'd scrap all of the Bullock and protests stuff and make room to have Batman and Robin team up in this very same issue to investigate the arson attacks. Instead, this is delayed for the next issue that's already edging closer to the end of the entire comic.

I still think Harvey Dent's backstory as Two-Face has been very good so far, but in retrospect, his transformation should've concluded in the last issue. Stretching it to four chapters is way too long. Judging by his discovery of the abandoned subway station that was meant to transport Burnside residents to the prosperous parts of Gotham City, it wouldn't surprise me if he leads a gathering of disgruntled protesters against the rest of the city. If the fourth issue is anything to go by, it will leave me confused and even more dissatisfied. The only positive is we should expect to see Batman and Robin team up for the first time and read some real action. But that still won't be enough if the plot isn't engaging.

I gotta say, I'm surprised at the positive reviews this issue has been getting. I suspect political biases are getting in the way of assessing the comic, as well as people's excitement over the numerous Easter eggs.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 11 Dec  2021, 14:59
Here are more Easter egg analysis on the last two issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXkaKeJVzHE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bwWUGFbS_I

The way this story is unfolding, there are so many Easter eggs and homages being paid to but a lack of a captivating, focused story.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed,  8 Dec  2021, 15:19
Didnt catch him returing to the cave after the explostions in the last issue (really need to read these in one go). That seems odd, but it seems like he's checking his own history and still bogged by his guilt.

I've been thinking about this, and I'm not convinced it's a valid excuse. Yeah, maybe Harvey's words over Batman causing collateral damage after the Halloween attack had gotten to Bruce, and he certainly feels guilty over that accidental death he indirectly caused in the second issue, but it's still out of character for him to go straight home while Gotham City suffers from arson attacks. Imagine if Batman in BR suddenly stopped his pursuit of the Penguin because he was so wrapped with his own guilt over not being able to save the Ice Princess? Or if he took a break from crime-fighting because he kicks himself for not looking when those two muggers attacked that tourist dad at the start of B89? No, Batman suffers from failures and tragedies all the time, but he puts his guilt behind him whenever a threat emerges. Him saying to Vicki "I try to avoid all this, but I can't" sums it up.

Now, I did say in my last post that maybe the Robin arc is supposed to inspire Batman to become more involved, or as Drake puts it, "terrorizing bad guys is a dead end, you got to inspire people to stand up on their own...to make the kind of world they want to live in". That's all well and good, but that still doesn't explain why Batman would suddenly go MIA while fires are lit up in the city.

I'm not happy with how the focus on the arsonists shifted to Bullock and the protests in the beginning of issue four. At the end of the third issue, I thought they were caused by those violent Batman copycats, because they tracked down Drake's whereabouts and started the fires at his auto shop, and I assumed they could be setting off more fires to continue their revenge. And maybe that's still the case, as you can see the protesters marching down the street holding signs saying "Cops Talk, Arsonists Walk". But instead of revealing who these arsonists are, it seems we have Robin setting off a firebomb to disrupt Bullock's planned attack against the protesters. To be honest, when I read issue four for the first time, I thought these fires were being set because there were riots happening in the streets, and completely misunderstood how people were protesting against the arsonists. The transition between issue three's ending to the opening and the whole duration of issue four doesn't flow very well at all.

If it were up to me, I'd scrap all of the Bullock and protests stuff and make room to have Batman and Robin team up in this very same issue to investigate the arson attacks. Instead, this is delayed for the next issue that's already edging closer to the end of the entire comic.

I still think Harvey Dent's backstory as Two-Face has been very good so far, but in retrospect, his transformation should've concluded in the last issue. Stretching it to four chapters is way too long. Judging by his discovery of the abandoned subway station that was meant to transport Burnside residents to the prosperous parts of Gotham City, it wouldn't surprise me if he leads a gathering of disgruntled protesters against the rest of the city. If the fourth issue is anything to go by, it will leave me confused and even more dissatisfied. The only positive is we should expect to see Batman and Robin team up for the first time and read some real action. But that still won't be enough if the plot isn't engaging.

I gotta say, I'm surprised at the positive reviews this issue has been getting. I suspect political biases are getting in the way of assessing the comic, as well as people's excitement over the numerous Easter eggs.

I think you hit the nail on the head "so many Easter eggs and homages being paid to but a lack of a captivating, focused story." It's a modern story in more ways than one sadly. I mean there are still some good parts, but parts that just need fleshing out badly. I think Bullock trying to start with the protesters should of happened wothin the first two issues. There is just way too much going on for a 6 issue run. Alos, so far there is no need for Catwoman, she really could have been cut. It's fun she's here but I think they ran into the problem with her own story being resolved (I think he becoming a vigilantee for crimes against women and those taken advantage of is really the only rought for Burtons Catwoman).

I think the other problem is that Burton, Keaton and honestley Billy Dee are not involved. I think they all would have trimed cut and twisted to some extent and made it feel more inline with the universe and I think Billy Dee might of had his own things he'd want to see in his two-face (I hope some one asks him about this in detail one day). Keaton I think would overall be pretty satisfied, but I think he's still needed (which is one of my hopes for The Flash).

The funny thing is so many people complain about Batman taking a backseat in the Burton films however, in this comic he actually is (which I'm fine with for the most part). I think perhaps we should of gotten a bonus/preview issue just fousing on Robin and the history of Burnside. Set up all the political issues and social messages that is the groundwork for this series.

Edit: One last thing, one of the best things to come out of this comic is the Batycle. My only two complains is that its so Burton that it honestly does not fit in with the rest of the art and two) it does feel a little 1992. Not sure how Burton would of updated the style in the cemented mid-90s but I also feel like Shumacher really cemented the 90s Batman with Forever.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 11 Dec  2021, 16:21
I think Bullock trying to start with the protesters should of happened wothin the first two issues.

I agree, and it certainly would've avoided this awkward pacing between issues three and four. If Hamm wants to make allegories to BLM, that's fine, but it should've been thought out much better and not come in at Batman's expense.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 11 Dec  2021, 16:21
Alos, so far there is no need for Catwoman, she really could have been cut. It's fun she's here but I think they ran into the problem with her own story being resolved (I think he becoming a vigilantee for crimes against women and those taken advantage of is really the only rought for Burtons Catwoman).

I agree again, unfortunately. Catwoman was fun as far as fan service was concerned at first, but you're right by saying her subplot gets in the way of fleshing out the rest of the story. If they couldn't secure twelves issues for the ambitious ideas they wanted to pursue then they should've reconsidered and come up with a coherent story to satisfy the six issue run. Frankly, I'm not that curious to find out what she might find on the GCPD computer files, all I want to know is what the main story's endgame is. With only a couple of issues left to go, I'd be pleasantly surprised if Catwoman's arc gets a satisfying conclusion.

Barbara Gordon is another character could've been cut, or renamed even. So far, the relationship between her and her father isn't even explored, aside from the mere mention of the two aren't on speaking terms because they don't see eye-to-eye over Dent. Hamm and Quinones could've chosen any other name for Dent's fiance, and it wouldn't have mattered.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 11 Dec  2021, 16:21
I think the other problem is that Burton, Keaton and honestley Billy Dee are not involved. I think they all would have trimed cut and twisted to some extent and made it feel more inline with the universe and I think Billy Dee might of had his own things he'd want to see in his two-face (I hope some one asks him about this in detail one day).

I'm not too surprised that Burton isn't involved, he is busy producing an Adams Family spinoff for Netflix as we speak. But I am surprised we still haven't heard his take on these comics and Keaton's return in The Flash. I think it goes without saying the Batman '89 comics is NOT something Burton would've gone with had he directed the third film back in 1995, but I find it strange nobody has reached out to him and ask what he thinks of these attempts to revive the Burtonverse.

As for Billy Dee Williams, he said in a DVD featurette for B89 that he wanted model his character after the real life politician and civil rights activist Adam Clayton Powell. Hamm must've taken cues because Dent in these comics is a bit of a preacher, even if his fellow community leaders look down on him for being an opportunist.

https://youtu.be/QJM-raK4yEM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFt_NOAWQAQBOWk?format=jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGSi-SIXoAM7OTK?format=jpg)

I wish Batman didn't have any eye lenses in these comics, they don't really serve any purpose.

I just got done reading the latest issue, and again, I'm just not impressed with this. I feel like this is one of the most ADD Batman stories I've ever read. It's all over the place, and can't seem to focus on anything for longer than a few seconds.

Let's just see how this story develops....or gets sidetracked again.

Quote from: Travesty on Thu, 16 Dec  2021, 15:49
I just got done reading the latest issue, and again, I'm just not impressed with this. I feel like this is one of the most ADD Batman stories I've ever read. It's all over the place, and can't seem to focus on anything for longer than a few seconds.

Let's just see how this story develops....or gets sidetracked again.

The next issue should be an improvement - it will be the first time we see Batman and Robin teaming up, after all. But I can't help but feel the series has jumped the shark, thanks to its attempts to shoehorn a bloated storyline in such a short run. Unless the last remaining couple of issues increases to forty-odd pages to give the plot a better chance to breathe, I suspect the conclusion of Batman '89 is going to get rushed.

If it were up to me in conceiving these comics for a six issue run, the only characters I'd focus would be Batman, Robin and Two-Face. I would remove Catwoman completely, and have Two-Face begin his crime spree at the start of issue four at the very latest, instead of having him begin his mayhem in the second last issue of the entire run. If Harvey were to stay engaged, I'd be tempted to rename his fiance, because as I've already said, that character didn't have to be called Barbara Gordon.

The frustration over the bloated nature of these comics remind me how much I give credit for Burton and co for being economical when they developed B89 and BR. They may not suit to every purists' liking, but those movies knew how to focus a few number of characters and a story you can follow. Sam Hamm may have some good ideas here and there, but I think the help he got from other writers on the Burton films improved those ideas.

Now that the RIDICULOUS news of Keaton appearing in Batgirl is confirmed by the trades, I have to ask: what the hell was the point of greenlighting these comics if they were going to be either retconned or outright ignored by the movies? I know I have been critical of the last few issues, but this run now comes across as pointless more than ever.

Seriously, Batman is now around the same age as Gordon. What's next, the Joker and the Penguin are still alive in the new DC movie timeline?

f*** off.

Any news on the latest issue? Seems odd its not out yet

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Wed, 19 Jan  2022, 13:57
Any news on the latest issue? Seems odd its not out yet

It was delayed a couple of times. No reason was given, though Joe Quinones mentioned recently that he's had Covid. Issue #5 is currently listed as coming out February 1st.

Thank you! :D I was begining to worry that it was canceled mid-run

Lawrence the Joker goon returns. I assume this is a flashback?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FI2M-90XIAcSOGd?format=jpg)

Barbara Gordon looks confused. Sorta like how many people will be once they see Keaton's Batman in a different movie universe with another Barbara who doesn't like anything like her, and her dad is suddenly JK Simmons.  >:(

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJP8sNBWUAUm-e5?format=jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJFL8usWQA45abe?format=jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJk6rpPWYAU5myH?format=jpg)

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Thu, 20 Jan  2022, 00:46
Thank you! :D I was begining to worry that it was canceled mid-run

The date has shifted again. February 15 is now the release date.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 25 Jan  2022, 17:50

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Thu, 20 Jan  2022, 00:46
Thank you! :D I was begining to worry that it was canceled mid-run

The date has shifted again. February 15 is now the release date.

Apparently issue 5 has been delayed yet again, this time until the beginning of March.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 20:39

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 25 Jan  2022, 17:50

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Thu, 20 Jan  2022, 00:46
Thank you! :D I was begining to worry that it was canceled mid-run

The date has shifted again. February 15 is now the release date.

Apparently issue 5 has been delayed yet again, this time until the beginning of March.

Indeed, and Quinones has confirmed that it was indeed his bout with COVID that caused it to move again

I'm reading once again that B89 was a ridiculous hit and the graphic novel version is expected to whoop serious butt as well.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Sun, 20 Feb  2022, 19:39
I'm reading once again that B89 was a ridiculous hit and the graphic novel version is expected to whoop serious butt as well.

If so, their future moves on the B89 universe will be interesting. Will they expand or keep it as a one-off? I really would like a Forever continuation to coincide with the Schumacher cut, showing the transition to Robin's new suit, the creation of the Clooneymobile and the like. I'm not sure what villains they could really use, though. Mr Freeze seems to be the first big theatrical threat after Riddler and Two-Face.

I plan on re-reading it as one whole story, there are things a love about it and things that are just kinda eh, but I hope it flows better as a graphic novel.

Shumachers take on Mad Hatter, I think, would have been really interesting. I wonder if he was aware of that character.

Not going to spoil too much about #5...but Harvey Kent of the Golden Age returns in a big way. I was pretty impressed. This is the big action issue.

I thought issue 5 was a marginal improvement over the last few, but it still had a lot of problems.

SPOILERS.

Batman finally threw a punch (two in fact, which still isn't terribly satisfying but is an improvement nonetheless). Gordon featured more prominently and had some meaningful interaction with his daughter. There's some semblance of a central plot now, with everyone trying to rescue Gordon from Dent. But this scenario should have been introduced much earlier in the series, rather than in the second half of the penultimate issue. The Batcycle looked great, though the vehicular action scenes were hardly integral to the story. I liked how the Batman Returns batarang was incorporated into the action scene at the police station. I thought the art and colouring in general were better this issue, which might reflect the extra time they had to work on it. The following image looked very familiar.


Many of the old criticisms still stand though. Hamm's writing isn't well structured and there are some very clumsy and confusing scene transitions. For example, there's a scene where Two-Face is fleeing a park that's meant to be surrounded by cops, and on the very next page he's back in his hideout conversing with Gordon. It feels as though there's a page missing in between those two scenes, or at least a missing caption clarifying the time jump, and that's not the only time Hamm makes abrupt geographical and temporal leaps of that nature. Two-Face still doesn't have a clearly stated end goal. Selina's presence still feels as though it's been shoehorned into the narrative. And Batman still doesn't talk or behave like the Burton version.

I wouldn't blame the GCPD for turning against Batman and his allies after the way they behaved in this issue. Firstly, Bruce accidentally shot Gordon in the neck with a tranquiliser dart and allowed Two-Face to kidnap and take him hostage. Secondly, he had Robin assault several innocent cops using the Batcycle. And thirdly, Catwoman assaulted Barbara to prevent her arresting Two-Face (Selina presumably did this to assist Batman in locating Gordon), thereby sabotaging an otherwise successful police sting operation and allowing Two-Face to retreat to his hideout and shoot Barbara's father. And that's to say nothing of the rather pointless scene where Batman and Robin are speeding around Gotham in the Batmobile at 160 mph. I wouldn't mind if they were racing to save someone's life, but in that particular scene they weren't.

So on the whole, a mixed review from me. Still not great, but I thought it was slightly better than the last three issues.

Really awesome chat with Hamm/Quinones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22nqcqzaIkQ

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 13 Apr  2022, 11:56


Many of the old criticisms still stand though. Hamm's writing isn't well structured and there are some very clumsy and confusing scene transitions. For example, there's a scene where Two-Face is fleeing a park that's meant to be surrounded by cops, and on the very next page he's back in his hideout conversing with Gordon. It feels as though there's a page missing in between those two scenes, or at least a missing caption clarifying the time jump, and that's not the only time Hamm makes abrupt geographical and temporal leaps of that nature. Two-Face still doesn't have a clearly stated end goal. Selina's presence still feels as though it's been shoehorned into the narrative. And Batman still doesn't talk or behave like the Burton version.

I wouldn't blame the GCPD for turning against Batman and his allies after the way they behaved in this issue. Firstly, Bruce accidentally shot Gordon in the neck with a tranquiliser dart and allowed Two-Face to kidnap and take him hostage. Secondly, he had Robin assault several innocent cops using the Batcycle. And thirdly, Catwoman assaulted Barbara to prevent her arresting Two-Face (Selina presumably did this to assist Batman in locating Gordon), thereby sabotaging an otherwise successful police sting operation and allowing Two-Face to retreat to his hideout and shoot Barbara's father. And that's to say nothing of the rather pointless scene where Batman and Robin are speeding around Gotham in the Batmobile at 160 mph. I wouldn't mind if they were racing to save someone's life, but in that particular scene they weren't.

So on the whole, a mixed review from me. Still not great, but I thought it was slightly better than the last three issues.

Pretty much this.

Issue #5 is much better than what we got in the last couple of chapters, but it has come too late. I'm glad we saw Commissioner Gordon having a much more prominent role and shared some interaction with Barbara. Long overdue.

Only one more issue to go now. I expect Two-Face's story to wrap up, but I don't expect all loose ends to be tied up, i.e. Catwoman.

I wonder if they are going to set up for another run? I honestly am not sure if im going to be invested in another go. This one has some interesting aspects but overall kind of feels like not much has happened. Without Burton or Keaton, this just feels like someone did a comic adaptation of a script draft.

Next week finally!!!

(https://buzzpreview.buzzcomics.net/2022-07/DC/Batman-89-6-3.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FWmg71NXgAQ0QIC?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FWmg71NXgAAZ4Lq?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FWmg717WYAABSOR?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://buzzpreview.buzzcomics.net/2022-07/DC/Batman-89-6-8.jpg)

Well, the series is finished. Here are my thoughts on the final issue and the series as a whole. SPOILERS ahead.

To begin with, we find out that Gordon did not survive the gunshot he sustained in the previous issue. But his death is not clearly depicted and we only learn of its occurrence through a second-hand report. Batman is indirectly responsible for this tragedy, since it was Batman who shot Gordon with a tranquiliser and allowed Two-Face to kidnap him, and it was Batman and his allies who sabotaged Barbara's sting operation and allowed Two-Face to retreat to his hideout and shoot Gordon. All in all, it makes for a pretty rotten send-off for Hingle's Gordon and an embarrassing stain on Bat-Keaton's performance record.

The Burtonverse Falcone is introduced, only to be killed off on the very same page. That struck me as rather pointless. Hamm's clumsy scene transitions continue to plague his writing, and there's a particularly awkward example of this in #6 where we go from a scene of Bruce sitting in a wheelchair in the Batcave to another scene of Bruce sitting in a wheelchair in the Batcave, wearing identical clothes, without a caption to separate the two scenes or indicate that a leap in time has occurred. In one panel he's in the middle of a conversation with Alfred...


...and in the very next panel he's in the middle of a conversation with Two-Face.


I had to re-read this sequence of panels a couple of times before I realised there'd been a time jump. There was nothing in the art or text to indicate as such, aside from Two-Face suddenly appearing out of nowhere. These kind of confusing scene transitions have been a recurring problem throughout this series and highlight how poorly structured Hamm's writing is.

What other observations can I offer about the final issue? Catwoman continues to not act like the Pfeiffer version, and Barbara is relegated to a minor supporting role. She literally only appears in four panels and has no dialogue. We don't even get to see her react to news of her father's death, or to Dent's death for that matter. She's just shoved aside for the entire issue. The ending is unsatisfactorily abrupt, with Catwoman appearing out of nowhere and murdering Dent. Why? Why did she do anything in this series? I get why she killed Shreck in Batman Returns, although she was far less nonchalant about that than she was about killing Dent. But her motives in this comic, and the back story explaining what happened to her after the events of BR, remain frustratingly opaque. I also didn't like Bruce's line to Selina about them not being the same. That felt like Hamm trying to steer Bruce's characterisation away from a specifically Burtonesque version towards a more generic comic book version.

On the plus side, the cover art looked great. There were a few panels right at the end which finally captured the look of Burton's Gotham. And it was nice to see the Batman Forever garage.

That's all I have to say really. The series as a whole is painfully disappointing and I won't bother buying the collected edition when it's finally released. I don't consider this canonical to the Burtonverse, and as far as sequels to B89 and BR go I'll stick with Batman Forever. The Batman '89 comic didn't capture the look or feel of the Burton films. The characters didn't act like their Burtonverse counterparts, there was little to no central plot, and there were too many characters and separate narrative strands that didn't come together in a satisfying way. It wasn't funny, scary, clever, intense or emotionally engaging. The writing was messy and unfocused, and aside from the covers the art work was generally mediocre. IMHO the entire series is a 2 out of 5 at best.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 13 Oct  2021, 18:17Hamm's a good writer

https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=4067.290

I retract this ^ statement.

Exactly all that, except for me the events after BR remain in my own imagination. There's too much for me to overlook to accept this as canon. Batman talks way too much, Burtonverse characters in general don't feel like the genuine articles and the story is all over the place. I won't be buying a collected volume either. The excitement of the concept faded with each issue. They started getting more wrong than right, with the Burton edge smoothed off to become something more generic.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  7 Jul  2022, 18:25

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 13 Oct  2021, 18:17Hamm's a good writer

https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=4067.290

I retract this ^ statement.

Damn.

I've purposely refrained from reading much of "Batman '89" because of wanting to read it in a tpb format, but it really sounds like that perhaps Hamm's rejected "Batman II" draft adapted into a comic book format (as basically a Burtonverse elseworlds tale from the get go) might have been less egregious than what we ultimately got with this .....

I've read the last issue today, and I'm very disappointed. The Gordons were done very dirty in this shoddy excuse for a finale.

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  8 Jul  2022, 08:19
I've purposely refrained from reading much of "Batman '89" because of wanting to read it in a tpb format, but it really sounds like that perhaps Hamm's rejected "Batman II" draft adapted into a comic book format (as basically a Burtonverse elseworlds tale from the get go) might have been less egregious than what we ultimately got with this .....

The Batman II script and this mini-series has confirmed my suspicions that both of B89 and BR's legacies are owed to other writers/script doctors and Burton's direction. At best, Hamm is fine when it comes to conceiving certain concepts, and I do thank him for for shaping up the basis for B89. But if he doesn't have another writer come in and refine his work, the storytelling suffers. Up until now, I thought this comic mini-series had to have twelves issues to flesh out the story, but after looking at the end result, the length wouldn't have made any difference.

As far as comics goes, I'd say Hamm's work on Blind Justice is much better than this letdown, and that comic wasn't that good. But it was definitely better constructed than the lazy mess that Batman '89 has become.

[MILD SPOILER]
Did anybody else thought Commissioner Gordon resembled Pat Hingle the most when he got punched by Batman and tried for corruption by Dent during that imaginary sequence while Bruce was trying to bargain with Two-Face? And given that was the only time we saw Gordon in that issue, did anybody else think it was done in poor taste?
[/MILD SPOILER]

This comic series has proven that Sam Hamm was in similar situation David Goyer was in for The Dark Knight Trilogy in which the director needed a writer that was familiar with the lore and universe of Batman to create something the fans would approve. Burton's initial treatment was sorely based on the Mankiewicz script and with someone like Hamm, you get elements like the inclusion of Harvey Dent and a character like Vicki Vale with a more interesting occupation that possesses better story possibilities, but that mentality makes you more attuned to doing an issue of the comic instead of making a film, which was obviously what Burton and Nolan were interested in.

Hamm has always been very vocal about The Joker being the murder of the Waynes and Alfred letting Vicki into the Batcave, which are criticisms that are adhered to the comics, but are actually great story points and visuals for a film. I've been conducting my own personal research for Warren Skaaren's contributions to the screenplay, a task that he had to also perform on Burton's previous film Beetlejuice and reading his criticisms and suggestions on how to fix the story really did help shape the movie into the one that we know and love today. Hamm's screenplay was very clunky with unclear motivations and the misguided attempt at emulating romantic comedies from the 40's. Of course, he had to deal with the burden of including Robin in his screenplay which was something they had to come up with at the last minute to find out where exactly to place them in the story. Perhaps things would transpire differently if Hamm  did not have that directive at all, but his following track record of only getting work that involved comic adaptations showed that he was unfortunately placed in a box that he couldn't get out of. I'm curious to know if one day will get more details about what the original concept of Batman '89 was supposed to be until Hamm got involved. It perhaps was more attuned to Burton's sensibilities, but that could've been a legality problem as to why that couldn't have been carried through.

This needed Burton and Keaton (or one of the two) as consultants. I feel like it was all over the place. Now it takes places in 94 (not 95 like the playsation thing aluded too)??.

Dent was all over the place and the ending felt more rushed than any of the Burton films. There was really no emotional weight to anything.

Bruce and Selinas relationship at the end smacks the face of Returns. I get Bruce has to comes to terms with being a Killer but Forever (the original version and the theatrical cut) did this better.

Alfred being happy to see Selina Kyle seemed odd too since I always thought Alfred didnt care for her too much for her.

There were some interesting moments but overall, I kind wish it wasnt a thing. It had a story to tell but it wasnt really Burtons Batman.

As with everyone here, I will not be buying any more versions of this. I honestly dont think I will even be re-reading it

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Fri,  8 Jul  2022, 15:09Alfred being happy to see Selina Kyle seemed odd too since I always thought Alfred didnt care for her too much for her.

This... is a good point. But I figured it was more like Alfred disapproved of her.

Alfred encouraged Bruce's burgeoning relationship with Vicki because she was a basically normally, clinically sane woman. But what I guess I interpreted over the years is that Alfred disapproved of Selina because she's shat bit nucking futs. It would be understandable if Alfred thought Selina was the worst possible influence this version of Bruce could have in his life. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't secretly relieved that Selina was presumed dead.

But at the same time, that's never said. When Alfred has that brief scene with Selina in BR, I just assumed he was totally weirded out by her. But he never directly says that, so hmm.

Either way, him being happy to see her just doesn't scan at all.

I always felt the interaction he had with her and his reaction to "Salina Kyle might be there" (granted that could have also been because he just ripped the invitation up) mixed with the fact he didnt push it like he did Viki or Chase (if we're counting forever).

I always though of him not liking her because she really kind of was the female Bruce and he saw that and relaized that wasnt good for him.

But even still, youre right they didnt have much interaction so regarless his reaction does seem kind of off. Infact when I was reading this, this felt more like TAS.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 28 Apr  2021, 18:56Yo.

Of all Batman forums, I rly don't think anybody here will go easy on this comic book if it doesn't deliver the goods. Like you, I want something that feels like it could be a continuation of Burton's films. I don't particularly want the existing Batman mythos filtered through a Burton aesthetic. Any idiot can do that. I'd prefer something that feels like it could pick up where Burton left off.

Full disclosure: I haven't read a single page of this comic. My fear was that we'd get conventional Batman stories with Burtonized visuals. And glancing at this thread, that seems to be pretty much the best anybody can say.

I don't think I'll be picking this up, sadly. I'd rather avoid the comic book out of ignorance than read something that has upset everyone else around here. If it isn't good enough for the rest of you, I have my doubts it would be good enough for me.

Somebody at DC had no idea what fans wanted from this series, it seems.

QuoteSomebody at DC had no idea what fans wanted from this series, it seems.

That someone is Sam Hamm. Joe Quinones has proven himself to be on our level for the appreciation we have for Burton's work. Judging by the work he did for the initial proposal with Kate Leth, it seemed to have been on the desired level, but DC probably thought it was too close for comfort to avoid litigations from Burton and the only leeway was to hire Hamm for the project.

Hamm likes to state that it was the writer strike being the reason why he was replaced by Skaaren, but the circumstances and fax of the matter show that he was replaced before the strike took place. He must have made up this situation to save face as to why he didn't stay onboard when shooting finally took place.

Quote from: Kamdan on Tue, 12 Jul  2022, 16:50
Hamm likes to state that it was the writer strike being the reason why he was replaced by Skaaren, but the circumstances and fax of the matter show that he was replaced before the strike took place. He must have made up this situation to save face as to why he didn't stay onboard when shooting finally took place.

That's interesting.

Truthfully, there is definitely a pattern of outright letdowns when it comes to recent spinoffs involving Keaton and the Burtonverse. Yeah, the "Earth-89/Knox" cameo over on CW was harmless enough, but from there on out, it's nothing but sheer frustration.

You got the Devito Penguin anniversary comic debacle (a weird vignette that attempts to masquerade as a story), Sam Hamm's evidently inconsistent "Batman '89" comic, and Keaton's cinematic Batman return having to be associated with the much plagued "The Flash" movie (the subsequent Batgirl movie leaks concerning Keaton sounds about as mediocre as one would expect from Warners these days too).

(https://giffiles.alphacoders.com/750/75056.gif)

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 13 Jul  2022, 02:15

Quote from: Kamdan on Tue, 12 Jul  2022, 16:50
Hamm likes to state that it was the writer strike being the reason why he was replaced by Skaaren, but the circumstances and fax of the matter show that he was replaced before the strike took place. He must have made up this situation to save face as to why he didn't stay onboard when shooting finally took place.

That's interesting.

Truthfully, there is definitely a pattern of outright letdowns when it comes to recent spinoffs involving Keaton and the Burtonverse. Yeah, the "Earth-89/Knox" cameo over on CW was harmless enough, but from there on out, it's nothing but sheer frustration.

You got the Devito Penguin anniversary comic debacle (a weird vignette that attempts to masquerade as a story), Sam Hamm's evidently inconsistent "Batman '89" comic, and Keaton's cinematic Batman return having to be associated with the much plagued "The Flash" movie (the subsequent Batgirl movie leaks concerning Keaton sounds about as mediocre as one would expect from Warners these days too).

(https://giffiles.alphacoders.com/750/75056.gif)

Not to sound like a Debbie Downer. But the older I get, the more I think that some things need to be left in their place. I mean, Keaton's Batman is the founder of the feast for me. I think B89 totally changed the trajectory of my life.

But it ended in 1992. For better or for worse, his time with the character came to a close.

These attempts to somehow revive that Batman have (so far) only showed me how special, unique and unrepeatable that entire experience was. Things end, it's totally okay. Nothing wrong with that.

And I'm starting to think that maybe it was better when BR was Keaton's (unwitting) swan song with the character and that universe. Because the stuff we've gotten since then and the stuff in the pipeline... ain't exactly instilling a whole lot of confidence.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 13 Jul  2022, 03:23Not to sound like a Debbie Downer. But the older I bet, the more I think that some things need to be left in their place. I mean, Keaton's Batman is the founder of the feast for me. I think B89 totally changed the trajectory of my life.

But it ended in 1992. For better or for worse, his time with the character came to a close.

These attempts to somehow revive that Batman have (so far) only showed me how special, unique and unrepeatable that entire experience was. Things end, it's totally okay. Nothing wrong with that.

And I'm starting to think that maybe it was better when BR was Keaton's (unwitting) swan song with the character and that universe. Because the stuff we've gotten since then and the stuff in the pipeline... ain't exactly instilling a whole lot of confidence.

Completely agree. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 13 Jul  2022, 03:23
Not to sound like a Debbie Downer. But the older I get, the more I think that some things need to be left in their place. I mean, Keaton's Batman is the founder of the feast for me. I think B89 totally changed the trajectory of my life.

But it ended in 1992. For better or for worse, his time with the character came to a close.

These attempts to somehow revive that Batman have (so far) only showed me how special, unique and unrepeatable that entire experience was. Things end, it's totally okay. Nothing wrong with that.

And I'm starting to think that maybe it was better when BR was Keaton's (unwitting) swan song with the character and that universe. Because the stuff we've gotten since then and the stuff in the pipeline... ain't exactly instilling a whole lot of confidence.

So, in short, and to quote another '89 movie;

"Sometimes, dead is better."

Welp, that's the cards that have been dealt. C'est la vie.

Ideally, Michael Keaton's return as Batman would be about on par with Tobey Maguire's return as Spider-Man in "Spider-Man: No Way Home". A highly anticipated grand acknowledgement to a great Batman and a crowd pleaser. Unfortunately, it's in "The Flash", where Keaton's return is already mired before it's even actually seen due to really no fault of his own performance, but having to be associated with all the negative baggage that comes with a "Flash" movie starring Ezra Miller.

You deserved better, Keats. You deserved better.

I love Keaton as Batman and do want to see his new performances. Hopefully there's some good moments in there. But to paraphrase and tailor a quote from somebody else, "whatever made Burton Batman Burton Batman also made the 1990s the 1990s. The guys who used to be Burton Batman can never ever be that again even if they wanted to be. Going back would be like going back to school. I was never one for reunions - it's all over."

I love things that remain a perfect nostalgic thought because it's so rare now. B89/BR is that to me and it also brings to mind the early 1990s when I was five years old or whatever it was. Burton and Keaton did their thing and left the stage, and wanting more but not getting it added to the mystique - imagining what could have been and knowing it would have been good. The power of that short but potent period inspired BTAS. Burton's Batman is the early 1990s and that's its legacy.

The B89 comic just didn't replicate the Burton world for my liking, and being made 30 years after the fact did impact on the sense of authenticity. Having just the two films and three decades of imagining is perhaps too steep a mountain to climb in terms of expectation.

QuoteYou deserved better, Keats. You deserved better.

I just hate fundamentally how they're just doing exactly what was being made fun of in Birdman. I had the exact problem with Adam Sandler in Funny People trying to criticize his whole career, yet right after it did exactly what he was parodying. I guess you gotta enjoy the spotlight while it's on you, because Keaton was in a slump with movies like White Noise and Herbie with Lindsey Lohan before Birdman put him on top, which prompted Marvel to hire him for Spider-Man and lead him to do what we thought was the impossible of him reprising Batman.

Quote from: Kamdan on Wed, 13 Jul  2022, 17:26
I just hate fundamentally how they're just doing exactly what was being made fun of in Birdman. I had the exact problem with Adam Sandler in Funny People trying to criticize his whole career, yet right after it did exactly what he was parodying. I guess you gotta enjoy the spotlight while it's on you, because Keaton was in a slump with movies like White Noise and Herbie with Lindsey Lohan before Birdman put him on top, which prompted Marvel to hire him for Spider-Man and lead him to do what we thought was the impossible of him reprising Batman.

I've never seen "Funny People", but I think I know what you're getting at. There is some irony in Keaton going from Batman, to Birdman, to Vulture, and then back to Batman in his career. To which I'm sure he's very aware of. With the latter being rather unexpected by many of us, as, if memory serves, Keaton was fairly consistent in stating that if Tim Burton returned to the franchise, he would likely follow (much like his comments regarding Beetlejuice 2, or like Christian Bale's recent comments about being open to returning to Batman but only with Nolan at the helm). Having Keaton returning as Batman in a "Flash" movie (rather than in a Batman "Part 3" or "Batman Beyond" movie), felt rather odd from the jump, but presumably, there was something there in the script that perhaps we were not seeing. Course the screening leaks started coming in, and ... yeah.

Riiiiight.

I would be more yielding to the notion of Keaton's Batman and the "Burtonverse" being, ultimately, anachronistic and resigned to best remain in a very specific era in time, if there wasn't examples to the contrary with other long-dormant franchises being resurrected, and resurrected successfully. "Top Gun: Maverick" obviously being the best and most recent example. The original, arguably, being one of the notable, and defining films of the 1980's, brought forth into present times, and the end result being simply outstanding! Also, there's "Ghostbusters Afterlife". A franchise that, prior to Nov 2021, hasn't had a proper film released since 1989, but was respectful towards the lore and fans, and whatayaknow, ended up being warmly received by both fans and general audiences alike. What about what Stallone did with 2006's "Rocky Balboa", and 2008's "Rambo"? Both of those particular franchises could have easily been left in the past as cinematic symbols of 1980s (and '70s with Rocky), and it wouldn't have lessened their standing in people's perception of them whatsoever. However, Sly decided to put in a little effort, and yeah, both were successful and more importantly worthwhile endeavors that added positive chapters to their respective franchises legacies. How long was it between George Miller's "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome", and "Mad Max: Fury Road" again? Yes, of course it was Tom Hardy as Max, but to argue that with some tweaks in the script, "Fury Road" couldn't have starred a aged Mel Gibson Mad Max would be ludicrous. I'm not sure about these days, but Mel was in beast mode as far as being in shape by the mid 2010's with films like "Get the Gringo" and "Expendables 3".

So, when it comes to Keaton's Batman returning, it's really no longer becomes of a question of "if" this can be pulled off after such a long hiatus, but "how" can such a special circumstance like that be positively constructed? Unfortunately, it takes a little bit of effort, and Warners apparently was more keen on relying on the mere novelty of just having Keaton back in the batsuit for nostalgic purposes (along with propping up the Flash film itself of course), rather than anything remotely resembling a truly 'proper' continuation/conclusion of the Burton films.

Again, that's the cards that have been dealt. Our boy deserved better.

QuoteWith the latter being rather unexpected by many of us, as, if memory serves, Keaton was fairly consistent in stating that if Tim Burton returned to the franchise, he would likely follow (much like his comments regarding Beetlejuice 2, or like Christian Bale's recent comments about being open to returning to Batman but only with Nolan at the helm). Having Keaton returning as Batman in a "Flash" movie (rather than in a Batman "Part 3" or "Batman Beyond" movie), felt rather odd from the jump, but presumably, there was something there in the script that perhaps we were not seeing. Course the screening leaks started coming in, and ... yeah.

Riiiiight.

Keaton must have gotten the word from Burton that Schwarzenegger got from Cameron that he could feel free to do a movie in the franchise without him. Burton seems to be very reluctant to do a "nostalgia show" by retreading familiar ground on a series that he felt like he was kicked out of, which I'm pretty sure he's not been asked back to anyways. This also explains why the sequel to Beetlejuice is taking so long. If it was something he really wanted to do, it'd be filming already.

QuoteI would be more yielding to the notion of Keaton's Batman and the "Burtonverse" being, ultimately, anachronistic and resigned to best remain in a very specific era in time, if there wasn't examples to the contrary with other long-dormant franchises being resurrected, and resurrected successfully. "Top Gun: Maverick" obviously being the best and most recent example. The original, arguably, being one of the notable, and defining films of the 1980's, brought forth into present times, and the end result being simply outstanding! Also, there's "Ghostbusters Afterlife". A franchise that, prior to Nov 2021, hasn't had a proper film released since 1989, but was respectful towards the lore and fans, and whatayaknow, ended up being warmly received by both fans and general audiences alike. What about what Stallone did with 2006's "Rocky Balboa", and 2008's "Rambo"? Both of those particular franchises could have easily been left in the past as cinematic symbols of 1980s (and '70s with Rocky), and it wouldn't have lessened their standing in people's perception of them whatsoever. However, Sly decided to put in a little effort, and yeah, both were successful and more importantly worthwhile endeavors that added positive chapters to their respective franchises legacies. How long was it between George Miller's "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome", and "Mad Max: Fury Road" again? Yes, of course it was Tom Hardy as Max, but to argue that with some tweaks in the script, "Fury Road" couldn't have starred a aged Mel Gibson Mad Max would be ludicrous. I'm not sure about these days, but Mel was in beast mode as far as being in shape by the mid 2010's with films like "Get the Gringo" and "Expendables 3".

Your provided examples have other factors that ensured their success more than what can applied to this situation. Cruise manicured himself to resemble his 1986 self and probably had to be refrained from going to further with his appearance since he's supposed to be the elder to the rest of the pilots. Keaton has allowed his hair to whiten and most of his roles allow his natural (of any at all) hairline. Cruise wouldn't be caught dead looking like that as Maverick.

The moment in Ghostbusters: Afterlife  with the core Busters reuniting was very forced and undeserving. They had no bearing on the story beside just giving a moment for the audience to cheer for a moment that's already been played out before. I don't need to see Keaton say "I'm Batman" or "Let's get nuts" again when he already did it perfectly. The suit in The Flash looks more less-cumbersome than his previous suits, which could seriously affect Keaton's acting since he used the claustrophobia he suffered from being in the suit for his performance. The returning Ghostbusters just had to jump into their union suits and likely had lightweight packs to maximize comfortability for the aging actors.

Stallone is a whole other beast in and of itself. He writes, directs and recently took on the task of recutting one of his films. Like Cruise, he knows what the audience wants and isn't priming himself to do a personal project, like that Edgar Allan Poe project that he seems to have decided to let go of. It was unrealistic of Affleck to believe that he could effectively do those tasks in his own Batman film and it ultimately didn't happen.

The whole Fury Road experience proves how valuable it was in the original films that they had limitations to work with. I saw no value in Miller finally being able to show someone wasting their universe's precious commodity, gasoline, on someone blaring an electric guitar that spits fire. It looked ridiculous as it sounds but people still ate it up like it was the second coming. Bob Gale mentions how terrible Back to the Future would have ended up if they had gotten their way and the changes improved the final film. I'll gladly take the original Mad Max and Road Warrior over Fury Road any day. A Batman film with the same approach I'm sure would give me the same reaction.

QuoteUnfortunately, it takes a little bit of effort, and Warners apparently was more keen on relying on the mere novelty of just having Keaton back in the batsuit for nostalgic purposes (along with propping up the Flash film itself of course), rather than anything remotely resembling a truly 'proper' continuation/conclusion of the Burton films.

Again, that's the cards that have been dealt. Our boy deserved better.

I'm sure Keaton is just fine with whatever they've worked out for him, because he's getting paid and is content with his place in his career. Us fans, on the other hand, have our reservations and expectations that I don't believe can be achieved. I believe a better statement would be "WE deserve better" and not "Our boy."

Quote from: Kamdan on Thu, 14 Jul  2022, 13:23It was unrealistic of Affleck to believe that he could effectively do those tasks in his own Batman film and it ultimately didn't happen.

Not to get sidetracked. But looking back at it, Affleck's anticipated workload should've been a giveaway. Iirc, he would've written, directed and starred in his Batman movie. Odds are he would've been involved in a producer capacity as well because those rumors were circulating as well. Just one of those jobs would've been monumental. But doing all of them would've probably been the biggest challenge of his entire career. Argo would've looked like a sunny vacation in comparison. And that's before we get into whatever behind the scenes drama was going on.

All of this is to say that you raise a good point here. And it's something that doesn't get brought up very often when the Affleck Batman movie gets discussed. There's a very strong argument that Affleck bit off more than he could chew with that movie. Which could be what actually killed it. Or at least contributed to killing it.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 13 Jul  2022, 03:23
Not to sound like a Debbie Downer. But the older I get, the more I think that some things need to be left in their place. I mean, Keaton's Batman is the founder of the feast for me. I think B89 totally changed the trajectory of my life.

But it ended in 1992. For better or for worse, his time with the character came to a close.

These attempts to somehow revive that Batman have (so far) only showed me how special, unique and unrepeatable that entire experience was. Things end, it's totally okay. Nothing wrong with that.

And I'm starting to think that maybe it was better when BR was Keaton's (unwitting) swan song with the character and that universe. Because the stuff we've gotten since then and the stuff in the pipeline... ain't exactly instilling a whole lot of confidence.

Unless there's a Burtonised Batman Beyond project secretly in the works - which let's face it, the chances of that happening are remote at best - I have to agree with what you said. I thought the writing was on the wall as soon as it was becoming apparent that Burton's timeline was getting retconned to fit into some bastardised Flashpoint timeline. Not only because I hate Batfleck getting phased out, but I've equally resented the idea of rebooting Keaton's Batman. If you do that, he becomes a completely different character altogether, in my opinion.

Still, if the film side couldn't satisfy my enthusiasm, these comics should've delivered. There's no excuse for how it went off the rails. What's even more frustrating is there are some good elements here. The Drake Winston Robin and Two-Face were done well for the most part, and Joe Quinones poured his heart and passion into his great artwork. But if the story starts to go downhill as it progresses and is a dud overall, it won't work.

The way I see it, this limited run comes across as a sequel to a set of Batman movies that don't exist. Aside from the nice Easter eggs by Quinones, this doesn't feel like a sequel that takes place after BR. Catwoman doesn't have an arc, which makes it harder to believe she is supposed to be the same character played by Michelle Pfeiffer. Batman himself is largely inconsequential and even useless. He does so little. Barbara Gordon, why did she have to be in this story? The troubled relationship with her father is largely ignored and neglected by the end of the run. As I've said before, she could've been named somebody else and it wouldn't make any difference to Commissioner Gordon.

I'm surprised to read reactions to this run is a lot more positive outside of this forum. I assume this is because of the novelty of how Billy Dee Williams could've looked like as Two-Face and Quinones' art is highly appreciated. Once all that excitement disappears, I predict time will not be kind to these comics. A missed opportunity.

Quote from: Kamdan on Thu, 14 Jul  2022, 13:23
I'm sure Keaton is just fine with whatever they've worked out for him, because he's getting paid and is content with his place in his career. Us fans, on the other hand, have our reservations and expectations that I don't believe can be achieved. I believe a better statement would be "WE deserve better" and not "Our boy."

At the core, Keaton's return was about fixing a hole that appeared with Affleck's departure. Without that hook it wasn't going to happen, probably ever. Which brings in the seemingly lack of Burton having a clear say in the projects even if he wasn't making them himself. And that's a problem for me. I get the very credible impression that Bale would not return to the franchise without Nolan. Until Nolan changes his mind he's done, and he's content about that. That type of return would have much more authenticity and would have naturally evolved over a longer period of time, rather than just suddenly appeared.

I think Batman has a much larger range of whats considered as "Definitive Batman" wheras Spider-man has been overall consistant (besides Garfield who was basically shunned in NWH). It was usually camp Tobey of camp Holland.

There really is a Batman for everyone and I think that makes things a little more complicated (epeshally when alot of peoples memory starts with Bale). Then The Batman made it further complicated.

Heck, they've been showing the 90s Batman films on TV alot and there have been alot of retrospectives of Burton Batman on youtube and I guess it's just hit it's era of Retro-fawning that people are paying attention to it. For a while now Birdman was right with the line "I'm an answer to a trivial pursuit question" if the Batgirl test screenings are accurate then alot of people arent even aware Keaton is back as Batman.

Keaton makes sense for me in terms of replacing Affleck because their Batmen are overal similar and Afflecks Batman is basically the tony stark of DC (post IM3 where he's just in other peoples films) and Keaton works well with less in more.

However, I do think this who multi-verse thing is the last huraah for large comic franchises. I just saw a video the other day where they talked about these multiverses are just about making everything that ever existed relevent and thus bankable and "everything is cannon". How do you go beyond that?

Ninja Turtles has a very similar problem. Every incanrantion since 2010 (first cartoon crossover?) that established everything is cannon has each follow up with "hey lets do crossover with the 80s turtles...again". It lost its appeal fast for me.

In ties to this comic, I feel like this wasnt that great of a re-introduction either. It feels like a draft more than a polished story.

QuoteKeaton must have gotten the word from Burton that Schwarzenegger got from Cameron that he could feel free to do a movie in the franchise without him. Burton seems to be very reluctant to do a "nostalgia show" by retreading familiar ground on a series that he felt like he was kicked out of, which I'm pretty sure he's not been asked back to anyways. This also explains why the sequel to Beetlejuice is taking so long. If it was something he really wanted to do, it'd be filming already.

Keaton building up a nest egg at this point, despite probable personal disconcerting creative choices, is already baked into the cake so to speak. Having to re-read the Flash script (if memory serves) two to three times may just be racked up to confusion over the multiverse concept, as publically stated (I'm sure he could have taken this further if he didn't want to be held liable ... as if the film needed any more trouble), or perhaps his own personal discontended feelings in just "how" his Batman was handled. "Hey, maybe if I read this again, it'll get better?"

Burton and Cameron are miles apart at this stage in their respective careers, but I wouldn't absolutely rule out Burton stubbornly positioning himself for a larger check when it comes to franchises he had a hand in jump starting. Especially so since he's well aware his name back in the director's chair would get the desired publicity for promotion (just like studios being cognizant of as well). Burton's much more lenient to 'play ball' nowadays than he was during the 1990's where he was given carte blanche in creative control. As if directing a live action "Dumbo" for Disney didn't already make that abundantly clear.

QuoteYour provided examples have other factors that ensured their success more than what can applied to this situation. Cruise manicured himself to resemble his 1986 self and probably had to be refrained from going to further with his appearance since he's supposed to be the elder to the rest of the pilots. Keaton has allowed his hair to whiten and most of his roles allow his natural (of any at all) hairline. Cruise wouldn't be caught dead looking like that as Maverick.

Really? Personally, I think the success of "Top Gun Maverick" goes well beyond the visual aesthetic of what people have grown accustomed to when it comes to Tom Cruise's appearance in films. The movie could've had Mav looking like Vincent from "Collateral" and it would've had no bearing on the film's overall quality.

QuoteThe moment in Ghostbusters: Afterlife  with the core Busters reuniting was very forced and undeserving. They had no bearing on the story beside just giving a moment for the audience to cheer for a moment that's already been played out before.

There really should have been a "B" plot that was outside of the main Spengler family story, involving the original Ghostbusters touching base again with one another, and so forth. There's a number of ways this could have been handled, but it would've ultimately made their sudden re-appearance in the film less jarring in retrospect.

QuoteI don't need to see Keaton say "I'm Batman" or "Let's get nuts" again when he already did it perfectly. The suit in The Flash looks more less-cumbersome than his previous suits, which could seriously affect Keaton's acting since he used the claustrophobia he suffered from being in the suit for his performance. The returning Ghostbusters just had to jump into their union suits and likely had lightweight packs to maximize comfortability for the aging actors.

I would expect a "I'm Batman" reprisal line coming from Keaton if you're going to go ahead and bring him back, sure. "Let's get nuts" is more superfluous, but eh. Whatever. Oh, and the proton packs were significally more lightweight than the 1984/1989 versions. Bill Murray was pretty open about it. Even with Ivan Reitman, who was often on set.

QuoteStallone is a whole other beast in and of itself. He writes, directs and recently took on the task of recutting one of his films. Like Cruise, he knows what the audience wants and isn't priming himself to do a personal project, like that Edgar Allan Poe project that he seems to have decided to let go of. It was unrealistic of Affleck to believe that he could effectively do those tasks in his own Batman film and it ultimately didn't happen.

"Rocky Balboa" was a nice bookend to the Rocky franchise, much more so than "Rocky V" was, but I find the Creed films, which Stallone contributed to (as he wasn't the sole writer or director), to be worthy additions to the overall storyline narrative that was originally brought forth back in 1976.

QuoteThe whole Fury Road experience proves how valuable it was in the original films that they had limitations to work with. I saw no value in Miller finally being able to show someone wasting their universe's precious commodity, gasoline, on someone blaring an electric guitar that spits fire. It looked ridiculous as it sounds but people still ate it up like it was the second coming. Bob Gale mentions how terrible Back to the Future would have ended up if they had gotten their way and the changes improved the final film. I'll gladly take the original Mad Max and Road Warrior over Fury Road any day. A Batman film with the same approach I'm sure would give me the same reaction.

I found "Mad Max Fury Road" to be Miller leaning more into the amazing visuals and impressible theatrics of the Mad Max universe that were always present from the jump. More of a spectacle than concerned with it's place in the Mad Max story narrative (I believe Miller didn't even give precise timeline of where "Fury Road" takes place when he was promoting the film. Stating something to the effect of FR, in his mind, taking place after Thunderdome, but it doesn't quite sync up right, ect), but yeah, it got most of the general audience interested in seeing more Mad Max films (or possibly for some to go back and watch the original Miller/Gibson films, which would be a win-win for Warners). Unfortunately, it's now years later and a "Furiosa" film with not-Charlize Theron is in the cards. Hey, it's Hollywood.

QuoteI'm sure Keaton is just fine with whatever they've worked out for him, because he's getting paid and is content with his place in his career. Us fans, on the other hand, have our reservations and expectations that I don't believe can be achieved. I believe a better statement would be "WE deserve better" and not "Our boy."

Sometimes, people "Go along to get along" in their careers, and Keaton certainly isn't an exception (or really the entire Hollywood bubble for that matter. Especially when you think about the now ousted "God" that was Harvey Weinstein). Again, I don't think "Us" fans have these wild overblown expectations that just simply can never be met and or satisfied when it comes to bring-round many of "Our" Batman back or for a, ultimately, proper send off, but in the manner this has been handled leaves much to be desired. That, I believe.

QuoteAll of this is to say that you raise a good point here. And it's something that doesn't get brought up very often when the Affleck Batman movie gets discussed. There's a very strong argument that Affleck bit off more than he could chew with that movie. Which could be what actually killed it. Or at least contributed to killing it.

That and his drinking problem that he finally had to come to terms with how it was destroying his life. He thought he could still do things he did in his 20's, but those days are long gone. Snyder's decision to cast him as older and weathered Batman since it takes more to convey that sensibility with greying temples. They tried to warn him how this was going to seriously change his career and he stubbornly dismissed the negative side of it, such as the press mainly being interested in his next outing as Batman than whatever film he was promoting. He really didn't handle well that somehow led him back to being with J.Lo. and made Keaton return as Batman. As Adam West's Batman once said, "I'd say the odds against it, would make even the most reckless gambler cringe!"

QuoteThe movie could've had Mav looking like Vincent from "Collateral" and it would've had no bearing on the film's overall quality.

It would have had a bearing on the movie overall since we're supposed to see that after all these years, Maverick is the same guy as we left him. One of the key factors that I believe audiences really responded to was to see a character like this, first and foremost in a sequel instead of being sidelined for other characters that we don't care about. Having him look like he did in Collateral, which already looked phony enough where it looked like someone just put baby powder in Cruise's hair, would have been a reminder of the time that's passed. Cruise understands what other long overdue sequels failed at, we don't want to be reminded of how long it's been since we've last seen them. Nobody wants to see an old man version of Indiana Jones doing the same things he did 40 years ago or having characters like Han Solo appear just so the new characters can kill them off or empty dramatic reasons so they can just magically appear out of nowhere.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 14 Jul  2022, 14:19
Not to get sidetracked. But looking back at it, Affleck's anticipated workload should've been a giveaway. Iirc, he would've written, directed and starred in his Batman movie. Odds are he would've been involved in a producer capacity as well because those rumors were circulating as well. Just one of those jobs would've been monumental. But doing all of them would've probably been the biggest challenge of his entire career. Argo would've looked like a sunny vacation in comparison. And that's before we get into whatever behind the scenes drama was going on.

All of this is to say that you raise a good point here. And it's something that doesn't get brought up very often when the Affleck Batman movie gets discussed. There's a very strong argument that Affleck bit off more than he could chew with that movie. Which could be what actually killed it. Or at least contributed to killing it.

I never gave too much thought about Affleck directing the planned solo movie, because it was a monumental task that I didn't think was going to happen anyway. Writing the thing is already big enough as it is. But from what I understand, as much as Affleck was interested in doing a solo Batman film, he was dedicated to completing the five film Snyderverse arc was the main priority, where the character would've gotten a definitive ending in JL3. After everything we know now about the trouble behind the scenes when Snyder was ousted and the previous WB regime and Whedon sabotaged the whole thing, nobody can blame Affleck for wanting to get out of DC altogether. One of the rumours surrounding the planned Batfleck movie that was described as "James Bond-like" was another script written by Geoff Johns, and you certainly can't blame Affleck for not wanting to have anything to do with that saboteur if that's true.

I can't guarantee for sure if Affleck's personal problems would've been alleviated if Snyder stayed on and a more truncated version of ZSJL came out. Only the man himself can answer that question. But I can definitely say the chaos going on with WB and JL certainly didn't help matters.

Still, his involvement in The Flash mystifies me, if it's more than just getting a simple paycheck. Judging by the leaks, he's not dying but is getting sidelined in another universe instead. Did he take the role again because he hopes to get a Snyderverse-related project in the near future? He did film those Knightmare epilogue scenes for ZSJL during lockdown, so it's possible he'd reunite with Snyder again in a heartbeat if given the chance. We'll just have to wait and find out.

Back on-topic with Keaton, I'd say despite the underwhelming premise for his Batman comeback, he's not typecast by any means. His post-Birdman career enabled him to star in really good films such as The Founder, Spotlight, Worth and a stellar performance in the mini-series Dopesick. Sure, as Burton Batman fans it sucks that the timeline is screwed over and we definitely should've gotten a legacy sequel instead. But looking past Batman, Keaton is still doing some worthwhile content to enjoy.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 17 Jul  2022, 13:40Judging by the leaks, he's not dying but is getting sidelined in another universe instead. Did he take the role again because he hopes to get a Snyderverse-related project in the near future? He did film those Knightmare epilogue scenes for ZSJL during lockdown, so it's possible he'd reunite with Snyder again in a heartbeat if given the chance. We'll just have to wait and find out.

Affleck, I assume, has a very good working relationship with Snyder. Agreeing to do the Knightmare epilogue scene was probably more to do with his positive relationship with Snyder than anything else. However, upon the more positive reception of the ZSJL film (because BvS theatrical cut, Suicide Squad theatrical cut, and Josstice League .. all movies Ben Affleck appeared in as Batman, and all were critical punching bags), it's possible that Affleck got revitalized with Batman once more. His participation with "The Flash", being simply a conduit that gets him out of the "Hamadaverse" shenanigans timeline, and leaves the door open for a possible return (that's separate than) down the road.

QuoteBack on-topic with Keaton, I'd say despite the underwhelming premise for his Batman comeback, he's not typecast by any means. His post-Birdman career enabled him to star in really good films such as The Founder, Spotlight, Worth and a stellar performance in the mini-series Dopesick. Sure, as Burton Batman fans it sucks that the timeline is screwed over and we definitely should've gotten a legacy sequel instead. But looking past Batman, Keaton is still doing some worthwhile content to enjoy.

Yeah, Keaton's in a good place career wise. I agree. With Batman, Keaton was often good-heartedly reminiscing about his time as Batman in public by the 2010's. Whether it was in interviews (Batman would never cry!), or when he was giving his commencement speech. With his "Flash" big Batman return arc with Warners and Hamada calling the shots being, "Well, this is all we have for you, but look it's a multi picture agreement! Uh, deal?" kinda situation, I'm sure he's just having to roll with it. Despite being acutely aware that his and Burton's Batman deserves better and this is about as incomparable to a "No Way Home" return scenario as it gets (yeah script wise, NWH wasn't a particularly 'high bar' to get over. Never mind all the Ezra stuff too now. Ugh).

Quote from: Kamdan on Thu, 14 Jul  2022, 19:53
It would have had a bearing on the movie overall since we're supposed to see that after all these years, Maverick is the same guy as we left him. One of the key factors that I believe audiences really responded to was to see a character like this, first and foremost in a sequel instead of being sidelined for other characters that we don't care about. Having him look like he did in Collateral, which already looked phony enough where it looked like someone just put baby powder in Cruise's hair, would have been a reminder of the time that's passed. Cruise understands what other long overdue sequels failed at, we don't want to be reminded of how long it's been since we've last seen them. Nobody wants to see an old man version of Indiana Jones doing the same things he did 40 years ago or having characters like Han Solo appear just so the new characters can kill them off or empty dramatic reasons so they can just magically appear out of nowhere.

Mav, in TG:M, still being rather 'stubborn' and/or 'inflexible', especially career wise, is more of a statement about his character rather than the overall quality of the film and the story we were given. Mav simply having graying/grayish hair alone, is just a bit too surface level, as far as something like that making a noticeable difference in the film. As he's literally surrounded by the concept that time has moved on and people have indeed changed (and some in a very different place) from what was 1986. There's really no getting around that, and I don't believe the film, whether it was with the characters or the USN, was really coy about it either.

Quote from: Kamdan on Thu, 14 Jul  2022, 19:53
It would have had a bearing on the movie overall since we're supposed to see that after all these years, Maverick is the same guy as we left him. One of the key factors that I believe audiences really responded to was to see a character like this, first and foremost in a sequel instead of being sidelined for other characters that we don't care about. Having him look like he did in Collateral, which already looked phony enough where it looked like someone just put baby powder in Cruise's hair, would have been a reminder of the time that's passed. Cruise understands what other long overdue sequels failed at, we don't want to be reminded of how long it's been since we've last seen them. Nobody wants to see an old man version of Indiana Jones doing the same things he did 40 years ago or having characters like Han Solo appear just so the new characters can kill them off or empty dramatic reasons so they can just magically appear out of nowhere.

The world has changed, Maverick has not. That's the theme. He's the remnants of old school analogue competing against a world of encroaching digital, which is just about to take over - but not yet. It feels like a glorious last sunset or a validation of yesteryear, showing guts and determination are eternal. It's the spirit of the pilot rather than the technology at their disposal which matters most. I appreciate how Cruise touched on the real possibility of Maverick dying towards the end, but smashed that dark cloud out of the way and replaced it with euphoric celebration - which is exactly what a legacy film like this needs. Especially knowing how other films have handled things, that moment in particular was satisfying.

I finally got around to reading the last issue, and man, what a complete and total mess. I was pretty vocal from the beginning that I wasn't diggin this comic, but it somehow managed to get worse with every issue.

This didn't feel like anything from Burton's universe, other than some lazy artwork that semi resembled some characters and locations. Hell, they couldn't even get the Batcave correct. Look, I like the big penny in the Batcave like most people, but it just doesn't belong in the Burton-cave.

This just felt like a quick cash grab at nostalgia. I wont be coming back to this again. Wat a waste of time and money!

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed, 20 Apr  2022, 21:51
Really awesome chat with Hamm/Quinones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22nqcqzaIkQ

So, Sam Hamm not only had Two-Face appearing in one of his Batman II drafts, he had included the Joker as well?

Quote from: Sam Hamm
I almost snuck Harvey into the sequel. The head of Warner Bros. production at the time was Mark Cannon, and he said 'I know [Joker] is dead and all, but if we could find some way to get Jack Nicholson back just for a couple of minutes in the movie it would be incredible.'

I pitched a scene where the sequel would open with the trial of the Joker, who it turns out has survived his fall from the top of the cathedral. He gets wheeled into a courtroom in a full body cast [and] he announces that he wants to take the witness stand. The guy who's prosecuting him is, of course, Harvey Dent.

The Joker says, 'Okay, I've done some terrible things, but I wanted to be here today just to tell you that I know that Batman, whoever you are, you are somewhere here in this audience, because there's no way that I would come into court and you wouldn't be there.' And so, with the one part of his body that's still working, he presses a little trigger and blows himself, the witnesses, the judge, and everything else to smithereens...and that's how Harvey's face gets scarred.

I'm glad this got cut, way too many plot holes surrounding Joker's survival and sneaking a bomb into the courtroom. So in that sense, Two-Face's backstory in these comics were better. Too bad the overall story arc was a disappointment.

After avoiding spoilers in the thread, I finally read through the series with the release of the collected hardcover. I know that doesn't make me much of a comic book fan, but for something I know I'm going to purchase anyways, I like to have something for the bookshelf. Which, though I don't usually splurge on hardcover if there's the option not to, it does display quite well. The packaging and art are fantastic.

Unfortunately, I didn't quite get it. But I'm not surprised for a project that has such huge shoes to fill; my expectations were unreasonably high. It seemed a bit odd to start the series ignoring the other two films in the series (IMO you could still have a Keaton continuation without erasing the continuity). But to come out and say your work is going to undo two feature films, you've got to back that up. To which I say bringing Sam Hamm onboard was one of the only ways to add authenticity to that concept... there's only a handful of writers involved in the original films that would apply. Steve Englehart and Hamm stick out by also having comic book experience.

I think time ultimately hurt the project. It seemed like Hamm was telling the Batman story he wanted to tell now versus the one he would have told in 1995. While there is a tonal shift between 1989 and Returns, one common thread is that they both feel timeless. B89 didn't carry that over with plenty of it taking place outside of either the Gotham seen in 89 or Returns, and therefore feeling very modern. On the flip side, another writer could conceivably craft an entertaining nostalgia trip, but that would just feel like fanfiction.

I did like the Two-Face design, now that was pure Burton. Two-Face should look like a grotesque monster, but not a photorealistic burn victim. Catwoman's redesign makes sense since she'd be needing a new costume after Returns anyways, but some of the bigger TAS design changes are a little baffling.

I was inspired by Batman Shadows (the Batman '89 comic), to make this logo.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4067.0;attach=621;image)

Andy Khouri, and Joe Quinones of the Batman '89, posted my artwork on Twitter.  :o

https://twitter.com/andykhouri/status/1605991964905598976?fbclid=IwAR1IEjajwkn9DNwlOXyLXQuAdEpwhSjAhmcYa7EgzyejAxSTTk8eo8KzoVo

https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1605996169561194497?fbclid=IwAR07dtBy41bnWpTYZ4-qBeve6rVzZ1Z3Tzt7iQxLdf2yibBfj9cdys-64Dw

Oh, I like that. Looks good.  8)

Quote from: GBglide on Tue, 27 Dec  2022, 06:00
Andy Khouri, and Joe Quinones of the Batman '89, posted my artwork on Twitter.  :o

https://twitter.com/andykhouri/status/1605991964905598976?fbclid=IwAR1IEjajwkn9DNwlOXyLXQuAdEpwhSjAhmcYa7EgzyejAxSTTk8eo8KzoVo

https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1605996169561194497?fbclid=IwAR07dtBy41bnWpTYZ4-qBeve6rVzZ1Z3Tzt7iQxLdf2yibBfj9cdys-64Dw

Outstanding.  8)  8)  8)

Good stuff at getting your image recognised, GBGlide. Nice edit on the Bat insignia getting a Two-Face makever, well done! (https://www.batman-online.com/forum/Themes/default/images/post/thumbup.gif)

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 30 Dec  2022, 13:40
Good stuff at getting your image recognised, GBGlide. Nice edit on the Bat insignia getting a Two-Face makever, well done! (https://www.batman-online.com/forum/Themes/default/images/post/thumbup.gif)

Thanks. I thought that I might have their ear, but they won't reply to my other stuff.  Here was my idea for a "Burton" version of Poison Ivy, where she is more plant than human.

Transformation: (Laboratory) [see drawings]

(Pamela Isley looks horrified as her skin turns green
and her mousy brown hair falls out in clumps into her hands)
(Her eyes go yellow with white pupils.)
(The back of her now bald head, cracks open and we see a flash of red, but it isn't blood.
It's a rose bud that blossoms into a full bloom and then lengthens into a longer headdress)


(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4067.0;attach=631;image)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4067.0;attach=633;image)

Encounter: Bar ("Cream" by Prince is playing)

(Two thugs look on as Poison Ivy walks in)

Thug One: Who are you?

Poison Ivy: I am poison Ivy.

Thug One: (sarcastically) What do you do, make people itchy?

Thug two: snickers

Poison Ivy: (smiles) why don't you come and find out.
(she walks closer and blows a "kiss" of pollen generated from the palm of her hand)

(The two thugs breathe it and immediately become her willing slaves)

Anyone, I'd like your opinion.
What would Tim Burton do?
Is my design a good balance between sexy and freak of nature, or should I go more freakish?

EDIT: I just saw Clay Mann's version of Ivy.  That is more the direction I was looking for.

Quote from: GBglide on Sat, 21 Jan  2023, 05:09
Anyone, I'd like your opinion.
What would Tim Burton do?
Is my design a good balance between sexy and freak of nature, or should I go more freakish?

EDIT: I just saw Clay Mann's version of Ivy.  That is more the direction I was looking for.

I always felt like the new adventures poison ivy was more or less burtony
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dcanimated/images/3/3f/Poison_Ivy_%28TNBA%29.png/revision/latest?cb=20191204220331)

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 21 Jan  2023, 18:44

Quote from: GBglide on Sat, 21 Jan  2023, 05:09
Anyone, I'd like your opinion.
What would Tim Burton do?
Is my design a good balance between sexy and freak of nature, or should I go more freakish?

EDIT: I just saw Clay Mann's version of Ivy.  That is more the direction I was looking for.

I always felt like the new adventures poison ivy was more or less burtony
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dcanimated/images/3/3f/Poison_Ivy_%28TNBA%29.png/revision/latest?cb=20191204220331)

Really? I always thought that Burton would make her into a walking plant. Look what he did to the Penguin.  Maybe I'm wrong.

Quote from: GBglide on Sat, 21 Jan  2023, 22:09

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 21 Jan  2023, 18:44

Quote from: GBglide on Sat, 21 Jan  2023, 05:09
Anyone, I'd like your opinion.
What would Tim Burton do?
Is my design a good balance between sexy and freak of nature, or should I go more freakish?

EDIT: I just saw Clay Mann's version of Ivy.  That is more the direction I was looking for.

I always felt like the new adventures poison ivy was more or less burtony
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dcanimated/images/3/3f/Poison_Ivy_%28TNBA%29.png/revision/latest?cb=20191204220331)

Really? I always thought that Burton would make her into a walking plant. Look what he did to the Penguin.  Maybe I'm wrong.

They're actually is a theory this poison ivy is a plant clone.

Cool collected edition with Superman coming out
(https://img.thriftbooks.com/api/images/i/l/CC3779C0FD2AA1DC1C4A2B2D6E563078A0A71C12.jpg)

That does look awesome, might trade in my hardcover for that; most of my existing collection is TPB, and I haven't read Superman '78 yet.

https://comicbook.com/comics/news/dc-reveals-sequels-to-batman-89-and-superman-78-exclusive/

SEQUEL!

(https://i0.wp.com/batman-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Batman-89-Echoes-1-Braithwaite.webp?resize=696%2C1082&quality=80&strip=info&ssl=1)
(https://i0.wp.com/batman-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Batman-89-Echoes-1-cover.webp?fit=4122%2C6259&quality=80&strip=info&ssl=1&w=696&h=535)
(https://i0.wp.com/batman-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Batman-89-Echoes-1-Rivas.webp?fit=4122%2C6259&quality=80&strip=info&ssl=1&w=696&h=535)
(https://i0.wp.com/batman-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Batman-89-Echoes-1-Rossmo.webp?fit=4125%2C6261&quality=80&strip=info&ssl=1&w=696&h=535)
(https://i0.wp.com/batman-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Batman-89-Echoes-1-action-figure.jpg?fit=1366%2C2048&quality=80&strip=info&ssl=1&w=696&h=535)

QuoteBATMAN'89 ECHOES: #1

Written by SAM HAMM

Art and cover by JOE QUINONES

Variant cover by RILEY ROSSMO

1:25 variant cover by DOUG BRAITHWAITE

1:50 variant cover by BALDEMAR RIVAS

Blank sketch variant

McFarlane Action Figure variant

$3.99 US | 32 pages | Variant $4.99 US (card stock)

ON SALE 11/28/23

You wanna get nuts? Let's get nuts! After Harvey Dent's crusade against Gotham and Batman, the Caped Crusader has disappeared without a trace. In his place, ordinary citizens have taken to the streets to root out crime. As innocents get hurt, the question on everyone's mind is the same: Where is Batman? Sam Hamm, screenwriter of the 1989 Batman movie, and Joe Quinones reunite for another tale in Gotham!

Will be interesting. Wasnt 100% on 89 so I hope this feels a little more fleshed out

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F31F0AdWwAA-Gka?format=jpg&name=large)
Looks like we got Scarecrow and a Lady Joker.(Harvey, Alicia?)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F31-PwpWgAEukLr?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F31-PwsXMAEWyV7?format=jpg&name=large)

Exciting news. The previous comic fell short of an admittedly Herculean task - that being following up on Burton's Batman - but there's still plenty of potential here. I think they can still course correct some of the issues. Meanwhile, the art design still looks great.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 18 Aug  2023, 20:55Looks like we got Scarecrow and a Lady Joker.(Harvey, Alicia?)

Definite Batman Triumphant/Unchained influenced.

I'm really loving the new look for Bruce and the bat suit. It feels like they're more confident using Keaton's likeness. I look forward to Arkham as a setting. We all note of course the animated influence. Can't wait myself. So close too. November.

I think I'll skip out entirely, unless I hear some of you say it's actually worth reading. I thought the first run was absolutely terrible.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 18 Aug  2023, 21:29(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F31-PwsXMAEWyV7?format=jpg&name=large)

Looks like they're using Goldblum as the model for Crane. Which is apt, considering he played Ichabod Crane in the 1980 Sleepy Hollow movie.

Quote from: The Joker on Sat, 19 Aug  2023, 02:12

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 18 Aug  2023, 20:55Looks like we got Scarecrow and a Lady Joker.(Harvey, Alicia?)

Definite Batman Triumphant/Unchained influenced.

Seems that way. In which case it should be a Schumacherverse comic. Burton and Keaton had nothing to do with the development of Batman Unchained. This is like making a Superman '78 comic based on Bryan Singer's ideas for the unmade Superman Returns sequel. They're scraping the barrel at this point.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Fri, 18 Aug  2023, 18:37Will be interesting. Wasnt 100% on 89 so I hope this feels a little more fleshed out

Quote from: Travesty on Sat, 19 Aug  2023, 15:34I think I'll skip out entirely, unless I hear some of you say it's actually worth reading. I thought the first run was absolutely terrible.

I'm willing to give the first couple of issues a look, but unless there's a significant improvement over the quality of the previous issues I won't bother reading the whole thing. It's non-canon anyway, and the novelty of a Batman comic visually influenced by Burton has worn off. Henceforth, this series needs to stand on its own feet. It can't just coast on nostalgia and Easter eggs like the previous issues did.

Using Scarecrow and Arkham is a step in the right direction, and I like how the new Batsuit resembles The Flash version. I wouldn't be surprised if they had Bruce don one of these other costumes at some point.

I'd be interested to see their version of it, but I don't believe Arkham existed in the Burton universe. Bringing Burton in line with established norms isn't interesting to me and there are other ways to show evolution. Bottom line, nothing in The Flash suggested the comic was canon. I was excited about the series when it was first announced, for obvious reasons. But now a second series just reminds me how things were fumbled in both print and live action. Nothing they show here will be legitimate in my eyes.

Looking at the sketches for Jonathan Crane, his face reminds me of a younger Ian McKellen. Some blog sites speculate the Lady Joker might be Harley Quinn. I know that she already made a cameo in Hamm and Quinones' first run of these comics as a celebrity psychologist, but I wouldn't be surprised if they went ahead and create another version in this sequel.

I admire Joe Quinones for his great character art, but Sam Hamm is simply not that good as a writer. His story in the first volume was an underwhelming mess, and knowing he'll have to tie up loose ends with Barbara Gordon now knowing Bruce is Batman and Catwoman still at large together with the introduction of the new villains, I just don't have much confidence in him to juggle all of these plotlines all at once this time around.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 19 Aug  2023, 18:56Seems that way. In which case it should be a Schumacherverse comic. Burton and Keaton had nothing to do with the development of Batman Unchained. This is like making a Superman '78 comic based on Bryan Singer's ideas for the unmade Superman Returns sequel. They're scraping the barrel at this point.

You're right. I remember two of the most talked-about canned sequels were Burton's Batman 3 and Batman Triumphant. This seems like it's checking another one off the list.

I'm really curious how much of this was in the back of Sam Hamm's mind in the 90s. It could very well be a coincidence that the same villain was chosen by both writers. Though I'm left to wonder where this leaves us with the Riddler, and how much merit there was to rumors of his inclusion in a Burton sequel (one would assume he'd beat out Scarecrow at least). The vast majority of fans had already fan-casted Robin Williams. If we're going the fan service route, that seems like an obvious way to create some positive buzz.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 19 Aug  2023, 22:17Bringing Burton in line with established norms isn't interesting to me and there are other ways to show evolution.

Agreed. I've sort of given up on hoping for a "Batman III" comic book shepherded by Burton himself. But if we're going to try continuing his canon, then the comic book should feel of a piece with Burton's work. And the B89 comic doesn't feel that way at all.

Quote from: Slash Man on Sun, 20 Aug  2023, 21:50I'm really curious how much of this was in the back of Sam Hamm's mind in the 90s.

I can say with supreme confidence that anything we see in these comics wouldn't be what we received in the 90s. The moment for Burton's Batman III as a real project is long gone - we want it but we can't have it. Nirvana didn't make a fourth album. The Flash jumping straight to long haired Bruce retired inside Wayne Manor is the harsh reality of the situation. Adventures happened but we didn't see them. At this stage I just find it false and counterproductive trying to depict that period.

I like the Arkham on the cover, it looks like something Nigel Phelps would have made.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 21 Aug  2023, 08:07I can say with supreme confidence that anything we see in these comics wouldn't be what we received in the 90s. The moment for Burton's Batman III as a real project is long gone - we want it but we can't have it. Nirvana didn't make a fourth album. The Flash jumping straight to long haired Bruce retired inside Wayne Manor is the harsh reality of the situation. Adventures happened but we didn't see them. At this stage I just find it false and counterproductive trying to depict that period.

I disagree to some extent; I think comics, books, and animation are underutilized for building upon live action properties that can't continue in their original form for logistical reasons. On paper, Batman '89 sounded like a great idea because we both A) knew that plans existed for Burton's third film and B) there was a sense of authenticity afforded by the original film's writer.

Off the top of my head, this has been done a few times. There was a comic adaptation of the first draft of the Star Wars script, as well as adaptations of Frank Miller's original plans for RoboCop 2 and 3. They're done to varying degrees of effectiveness, but I'm still glad they exist just to record these lost stories in some medium that's easy to visualize as a film.

The issue that becomes apparent with Batman '89 is that there's not the usual collaboration between writers, director, and even actors when making a film. While no one would claim that the Batman films were solely Burton's vision, he was the creative glue that held everything together (as a good director should be). In comics, there's just the writer and editor.

I've actually had the desire to revisit the comic, especially in light of the new announcement. I've tried out the comic book reading order, which has you read straight from the comic adaptations of Batman and Batman Returns to Batman '89. Didn't really make a difference since the two films are already pretty disconnected, but it's just an alternate way to experience it.

I'm probably reiterating my original criticisms, but the heart of it is that this doesn't feel like the timeless world Tim Burton created - the dreary yet familiar amalgamation of 1940s and 1980s New York City. The inclusion of 2020s social issues is apparent and already makes the comic feel dated by 2023.

The quality of art itself is good, but there's a couple questionable elements. The batsuit itself looks great. Studio mandates usually require a new costume, and this new suit pulled that off with a subtle combination of both suit designs. The big problem is the light-up eyes. Keaton does a lot of acting with his eyes, so taking that away is a big no-no.

(https://img5.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/30199/301997750b56bd1f8824c39f2a7b37b394941900.jpg)
(https://img6.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/30199/301997761644fb20778082f57ede75e5ac55ed69.png)

To be fair, it'd look badass in certain fight scenes, but it doesn't "feel" like Burton's. Yes, it's comic accurate, but this story's main priority is being faithful to the established films first, and then comics second.

There's also redesigns to Alfred, Bruce Wayne, and Catwoman based on Batman: The Animated Series. Yes, we all know and love it, but this comes across as more distracting because of how much the changes stick out. Would Tim Burton randomly decree that Michael Gough grow a mustache for the third Batman film? Probably not.

Barbara Gordon and Harvey Bullock also seem a little premature to be playing such notable roles at this point. The story seems to assume the reader simply knows them from the comics. And while that's likely the case, that approach is antithetical to the movies.

EDIT: Finished the book again, and I don't mean to sound too critical (after all, I did re-read it). The start and end were both promising, but it does drag in the middle. When adapting a cinematic work to comics, I find the one-shot adaptations are usually a little too short to get the full experience, but this limited series may have swung the pendulum into the opposite direction. It's harder to structure that like a film.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6FRiAcWkAAb1P9?format=jpg&name=large)

If that picture wasn't confirmation enough, Quinones has posted a sketch of the Madonna lookalike saying "The doctor is in", accompanied by a diamond emoji. The Lady Joker, is in fact, Harley Quinn.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6FLV-cWYAAFt9d?format=jpg&name=large)

https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1702724979157000666?

It seems Hamm and Quinones are taking ideas from that canceled Batman Unchained project. Quinones posted the picture of Harley, Joker and Batgirl is the front cover of the second issue of the new series, so I wouldn't past this new series having Batman seeing hallucinations of the Joker after he is poised by the Scarecrow.

Barbara must've been using the Batman equipment collected in the GCPD evidence room to become Batgirl. A little flamboyant, but definitely better than his original concept for the character.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1265.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj518%2FDarkMisa666%2Fnojmz1vwhavk3amtmvnu_zps4kolw1wc.jpg&hash=4fe533f8e8604970a819e38dffef8a1691703840)

Then again, it should be mentioned that Barbara in the original pitch for the entire Batman '89 series resembled closer to Christina Ricci than Winona Ryder, and appears to be more youthful than the police Sergeant we ended up getting. Maybe the Sergeant thing and idea to be Harvey's fiance was Hamm's idea.

There is not much to say about the Harley Quinn suit, other than it has traces of the Beetlejuice costume.

Despite all of these observations, I'm still not very excited about this new series. If I ever do bother to read any of this, it might not be until some time passes by.

Here is the synopsis for the new series.

QuoteEchoes picks up after Harvey Dent's war against Gotham, and Batman has completely disappeared. That causes the citizens of Gotham to take on the crime of the city themselves, and as the injured start to stack up, everyone is wondering what happened to the Dark Knight.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230821232649/https://comicbook.com/comics/amp/news/dc-reveals-sequels-to-batman-89-and-superman-78-exclusive/

I'm even less enthused about this than I was a few hours ago. Batman disappears while Gotham City fends for itself? I suppose this ties in with Scarecrow incapacitating Batman and forcing him to face his fears, but I don't trust Sam Hamm to pull this off. While Batman is missing in action, does this mean Batgirl takes his place for awhile, similar to how she did in No Man's Land?

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 17 Sep  2023, 01:43Barbara must've been using the Batman equipment collected in the GCPD evidence room to become Batgirl.

Quinones has confirmed my guess is correct. Here is Batgirl's character sketch.

The BR Batarang is now a weapon of hers too.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6pZWV9XEAAqpg5?format=jpg&name=large)

https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/status/1705273656044102114

Sounds absolutely terrible.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Fri, 15 Sep  2023, 17:44(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6FRiAcWkAAb1P9?format=jpg&name=large)

Quinones must've based this sketch on this unused poster. Batgirl does a similar pose to Batman, and both images have Gotham Cathedral in the background.

(https://preview.redd.it/cmymatpr4i061.jpg?auto=webp&s=fdc22e6342445efd27299628045cae6473eba2ab)

If only the stories were just as engaging as the Easter eggs.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 21 Oct  2023, 22:48

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Fri, 15 Sep  2023, 17:44(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6FRiAcWkAAb1P9?format=jpg&name=large)

Quinones must've based this sketch on this unused poster. Batgirl does a similar pose to Batman, and both images have Gotham Cathedral in the background.

(https://preview.redd.it/cmymatpr4i061.jpg?auto=webp&s=fdc22e6342445efd27299628045cae6473eba2ab)

If only the stories were just as engaging as the Easter eggs.

Thats a good catch! Also I agree 100%

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Fri, 15 Sep  2023, 17:44(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6FRiAcWkAAb1P9?format=jpg&name=large)

Admittedly, I'm a bit of Jack Nicholson Joker stan, so any new quasi "official" material pertaining to his version will always have my interest. Plus, I've found any and all information pertaining to the cancelled "Batman Triumphant/Unchained" script to be engaging to read about for years now. To which this seems to be taking a good bit of inspiration from.

Not expecting to be wowed, or even satisfied with the final product given the prior B89 installment to be perfectly honest, but Nicholson's Joker having some sort of role/affect in this, along with the "Triumphant/Unchained" influences does pique my interest in the proceedings.

sample pages

(https://www.superherohype.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2023/11/Harley-Quinn-in-Batman-89-Echos-1.jpg)
(https://www.superherohype.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2023/11/Scarecrow-and-Harley-Quinn-in-Batman-89-Echoes.jpg)

If that's supposed to be Goldblum, his dialogue needs more stammering and 'uhs'.

Quote from: Jeff Goldblum'He--he m-m-may wind up in the, uh, max wing. If you're, um, interested maybe I can, uh... i-i-introduce you. Hmm?'

Quote from: Travesty on Thu, 28 Sep  2023, 16:09Sounds absolutely terrible.

Everything I've seen and heard has indeed been terrible. I'm also tired of stories that involve Batman going missing for extended periods of time, especially during his main career - which the B89 comic series is. That's a trend that's now overused and I wish they gave it a good rest.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 30 Nov  2023, 11:18That's a trend that's now overused and I wish they gave it a good rest

I wish they would retire it completely. The older and crankier I get, the less craps I give about Batgirl, Luke Fox and the other diverse fill-ins. Just give me the main guy and keep the third-stringers out of it.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 30 Nov  2023, 21:29

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 30 Nov  2023, 11:18That's a trend that's now overused and I wish they gave it a good rest

I wish they would retire it completely. The older and crankier I get, the less craps I give about Batgirl, Luke Fox and the other diverse fill-ins. Just give me the main guy and keep the third-stringers out of it.

Characters like Robin, Nightwing, Huntress, etc are their own thing. Then we have Jace Fox come in and brazenly starts calling himself Batman. That doesn't sit well with me. Miles Morales soured my enjoyment of modern Spider-Man content for a similar reason. Miles is a seperate character but he's also not. They gave him the name and powers of an iconic and pre-existing character, which is a lazy foundation. Without the same name of the original character would anyone care about Jace or Miles?

Miles entered the scene simply because Obama became president, and now there's no shaking him off. The powers that be have doubled down on his presence to become a permanent fixture, having him and Peter on equal footing. I'm at the point where I don't care about the apparent quality of Spider-Verse movies. I just want Peter on his own in a world against the foes as it had been for decades prior. The counterpart evolves to feel like a replacement, which has been indicated with the proposed third Spider-Man game.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  2 Dec  2023, 01:58Characters like Robin, Nightwing, Huntress, etc are their own thing. Then we have Jace Fox come in and brazenly starts calling himself Batman. That doesn't sit well with me. Miles Morales soured my enjoyment of modern Spider-Man content for a similar reason. Miles is a seperate character but he's also not. They gave him the name and powers of an iconic and pre-existing character, which is a lazy foundation. Without the same name of the original character would anyone care about Jace or Miles?

Miles entered the scene simply because Obama became president, and now there's no shaking him off. The powers that be have doubled down on his presence to become a permanent fixture, having him and Peter on equal footing. I'm at the point where I don't care about the apparent quality of Spider-Verse movies. I just want Peter on his own in a world against the foes as it had been for decades prior. The counterpart evolves to feel like a replacement, which has been indicated with the proposed third Spider-Man game.

The ubiquity of Miles Morales has started making me wonder what anybody ever had against Ben Reilly back in the Nineties. At least with Ben, there was a good reason why his powers were the exact same as Peter's. Plus, Peter and Ben had one massive difference between the two of them that could've made for some interesting character dynamics.

Anyway, the reason why Jon Kent, Luke Fox, Miles Morales and all the rest exist at all is for copyright purposes. Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Peter Parker and so forth all have copyright expiration dates. And they're coming up fast.

Whereas the replacements are new and the publishers can hang onto them for a long time to come.

I read the first issue of B89 Echoes. A few quick thoughts.

First thing to mention is that the art work is better than in the previous series. It's darker, the colouring is more subdued, the characters more closely resemble the actors from the movies and there's some good use of shadow. I was also pleased to see fewer Burton Easter eggs in the art work this time around, as I'd started to find them wearisome and excessive in the previous series.

Echoes seemingly retcons a couple of things from the movies. (SPOILERS) It's revealed that Gordon figured out Bruce Wayne was Batman before his death and wrote about it in his journal. Alicia is alive and well and has undergone surgery to restore her beauty. No word yet on whether or not Harleen is related to her and Joker, as in the original Batman Unchained script. (END SPOILERS) Not much has been revealed about these characters so far.

The most interesting storyline concerns Bruce's disappearance. (SPOILERS) The plot twist on the final page was predictable. Two things telegraphed it: firstly, the fact Firefly, a villain, would detonate the explosives before the police entered the house in the woods, and thus avoid harming anyone; secondly, his use of the alias Robert Lowery – Hamm wouldn't have named a villain after an actor who'd played Batman. (END SPOILERS) Even though the twist was predictable, I'm interested to see where they go with this storyline.

My main concern is that Hamm might be introducing too many characters and setting up too many different storylines, which was one of the biggest problems with the previous series. But the separate threads might yet converge in a satisfying way. We'll have to wait and see how it plays out. All in all, I was pleasantly surprised by this issue. It was better than I was expecting after the disappointment of the first series, and it makes for a decent first chapter in this new story. I'm sufficiently intrigued that I'll read issue 2 when it comes out.

Some new things for Vol 2

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So, it looks like Martin Short will be the model for the Riddler.
I can see him doing comedic parts, but I don't know about the darker stuff.
Robin Williams proved he could do both.

QuoteI can see him doing comedic parts, but I don't know about the darker stuff.
Robin Williams proved he could do both.

Watch him in Inherent Vice.

Well, I watched Inherent Vice, I'm convinced that Marting Short can go dark.

Thanks for the reference. Weird movie, though.