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On the bright side, Arrow's awfulness outshined any of BvS negative qualities, so that makes this blow softer. Have a very great day everyone!

God bless everyone!

Steven R. McQueen as an alternate for Bruce Wayne/Batman

Chris Wood as an alternate The Red Hood/Joker

Have a very great day everyone!

God bless everyone!

[a murderer]

No. To me, it's not about Batman quitting that's nihilistic. It's the fake, contradictory messages that's the problem.

It would be one thing if Nolan wanted to convey the message that people are inherently good - like Sam Raimi did in his Spider-Man movies. But don't show me moments of ugly human behavior i.e. people caving into Joker's demands by trying to kill Reese, and then expect me to believe a completely unrealistic and impossibly idealistic scenario where citizens AND convicts refuse to kill each other when their lives are in danger...AND then tell me that I should accept Batman making a decision that goes against everything he stood for.

People aren't inherently good and people aren't inherently bad. The movie provides two examples of society. That's not a contradiction. It's just a fact. Batman stood for trying to rid the city of corruption. What he does doesn't go against that. If anything, he found himself to be a corruptive force, which he says in the movie. But even if it had, that isn't nihilism.

If you ask me, I think it's quite rather rich of Batman to champion his belief in criminals doing the right thing, since he goes out of his way to fight them on a nightly basis because he knows they can't do the right thing! But having said that, I'd would've tolerated everything what was wrong about that boat scene if TDK's ending didn't have Batman framing himself for everything that Two-Face did. Him taking the blame for Two-Face not only betrays his intention to become an "incorruptible symbol" as he said in the first film, but it also undermines everything he said to the Joker about "people are ready to believe in good". If he truly believed that, he would've let the truth come out and give people the chance to prove yet again - the Joker was wrong. If that was the ending, I could've put up with the unrealistic and contradictory stuff that happened before, because Batman stayed true to what he believed in and Gotham repaid his faith one more time. THAT would've been inspirational and life-affirming. After all, if you're going to show that people - good and bad - have the strength to not kill each other as a sign of solidarity, then for God's sake, you must stay true to that message. If they can do that, then they can cope with the news that a lawyer became a murderer.

You say this every time, and I always reply with the fact that Batman says very specifically that people are ready to believe in good. Not that they are good or that they already believe in it, but that they're ready to. And Bruce saw Harvey Dent as the catalyst for that belief. He was wrong of course. But that's apart of his character arc in the movie, his belief that Batman is a negative thing.

Instead, Batman and Gordon lie to everyone to protect a murderer because they were afraid that city would lose hope (despite the fact they were supposedly stronger than Joker gave them credit for at the end of that boat scene) and it enabled a legislation to give the entire town a false sense of security for eight years... which eventually backfired horribly when the truth came out, and leaves innocent people in grave danger. Not exactly very life-affirming, is it? I guess the Joker's bleak perspective about human nature was right after all?

That's not something that could have been predicted. The Joker's bleak false outlook was never proven right. When Bane took over the city, only the criminals and already bad people did bad things. The people who weren't them hid from it and/or did their best to help.

Had Batman and Gordon told the truth, they definitely wouldn't have to carry a burden that could tear the city apart for eight years. Sure, Bane and Talia still would've taken over Gotham City, but at least Batman and Gordon wouldn't be responsible for making the situation worse. And if you argue the whole meaning of TDKR was saying that the cover-up was the wrong thing to do, then how the hell can you say TDK's ending was heroic and inspiring? To me, it was a hypocritical message that didn't ring true at all, and the director wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

It being heroic isn't taken away because it ends up being realized as something that ultimately didn't work out. That's like saying you might as well not fight crime, because crime in this human life will always exist. What's the point if there will be more to come? The action of stopping a crime is no less good just because more will come.

Another thing, if the director wanted to convey the story that being Batman enabled Gotham City to clean itself up as a functional society, don't have John Blake or whoever take up the mantle from Bruce. Otherwise, it's like TDK's ending - you'll defeat the whole purpose. All that tells me is as long as a Batman is needed, Gotham will never be safe.

No place in this human life will every be safe. People willing to help will always be needed. It would be a lie to say otherwise.

For all the things I could list down what disappointed me about BvS, the ending where ***SPOILER*** Superman sacrifices his own life to stop Doomsday is inspirational as he not only saves the planet, but he allows Batman and Wonder Woman to come out of their shell and carry on his legacy. That's far more uplifting than any Nolan ending could ever offer, to me.

Besides, in case if somebody accuses me or anybody else others of being negative or wanting to hate a movie, the same thing can be said about the accusers for not liking something either. It's not very nice, is it?

The same could be said of your reactions to things as well. That sacrifice is just as heroic as Batman taking the fall for Dent or Batman willing to potentially die to save the city. But I would say people find more nihilism in that Superman has to die to bring those characters out of their shells. But that may just be my personal opinion. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[Modify Profile]

So what if I did?

Mate, if you really don't like my opinions and what I say, ignore me. I told you that seven months ago anyway.

Here - I'll be generous and give you these steps to add me to your ignore list so you'll never have to read my comments whenever you log onto the forum ever again:

• Click on your screen name to open your profile summary.
• Under Modify Profile, click on the Buddies/Ignore List link.
• Click on the Edit Ignore List button, and underneath where it says Add to Ignore List, type in The Laughing Fish in the Member: text-field.
• Finally, click on the Add button - and voila! You've blocked all of my comments from appearing on your screen forever! It's awesome, isn't it? I should know, I just added you to my ignore list as well. Have a very nice day, and God bless!

Grazie Dio! Grazie tutti!

Why would I ignore? That wouldn't be very nice, for either of us. But my statement was in connection to someone mocking what I say. It wasn't about you really. I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding. Thank you very much! Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Hello Dagenspear.

I like your posts and I mostly agree with you about the Nolan films.  I thought the end of TDKR, the film in the trilogy that I think gets the most undue hate, was particularly affecting.  Perhaps the idea of Bruce quitting as Batman is understandably controversial to some, but I don't see how anyone can say his decision to have a normal life, free from the pain, bitterness and anger that clouded him for years, much to his surrogate father, Alfred's, joy is 'nihilistic'. 

Likewise, with TDK, the ferry passengers' decision to 'disappoint' the Joker, and chose to preserve their humanity by refusing to detonate the other ferry, is one of the most life-affirming moments in comic-book movies.  I figuratively cheered when the big scary-looking convict, played by Tiny Lister, threw the detonator out of the convicts' ferry.

But can I ask Dagenspear, what are your thoughts on the Burton Batman films?  Do you only like TDK trilogy?

Not at all. The Burton movies are some of the first Batman media I consumed. I'm even told that as a child, before I could read I could pick out the Batman 89 tape and want to watch it. I actually thank and praise God that I'm so well adjusted having watched Batman 89 and Batman Returns at such a young age, because honestly those movies can get a little freaky. That and the animated series definitely was what shaped Batman for me. TDKT just more refined Batman, specified him as an adaption for me. You'll rarely see me talk about the Burton films, because I'm usually reactive in discussion, not always, but quite a bit. It's why you see me mostly defend the Nolan films. And here, the Burton movies don't need much defending. I like the Schumacher movies and animated series too, as shocking as that may seem. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

God bless you colors. God bless everyone in your life.

Mocking? And The Laughing Fish says TDK/Rises is nihilistic. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

As someone who thought that the film is merely okay and normally not too bothered by what critics say, I do sympathise with some of the fans who are getting frustrated over the negative reaction. I think it's extremely rich for people - whether it's critics or movie goers - to complain about the tone of BvS, but then praise nihilistic crap like The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises. That, and some of the negative reviews that I noticed are unnecessarily vitriolic and sensational beyond belief. I can understand if anybody thought the film felt short of the mark because they thought the plot wasn't up to scratch, the pacing was sloppy, or even if they thought characters were underused or whatever. But as I already said, there have been some bad reviews that went overboard. BvS, in my opinion, definitely could've and should've been better, but it's nowhere near this disaster that it's being made out to be.

How is TDK/TDKRises nihilistic, when the hero ends up finding and having a strong meaning in life, to the point where he fulfills the hope of his father-figure and maintaining to the end that there should be people who do the right thing? Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Yeah, I remember that one. I bet it's still not enough for the hater brigade. They've already made their mind up. That's what happens when you get on a negative train of thought. You ignore anything and everything because 'it sucks man'.

Why would something that's not in the movie change their minds about the movie?

I wouldn't have such a huge problem with Batman killing Two-Face...if he didn't spend the entire movie beforehand telling Joker he has a no-kill policy and endangered the entire city by refusing to kill him. That, together that he killed Ra's al Ghul because "he was trying to kill millions of innocent people", as he explained to Talia in TDKR, makes the whole "moral dilemma" against the Joker even more pointless. It's so mind-boggling and infuriating.

He didn't kill Ra's. So, that line, if it's meant to imply that he did, is wrong. And him killing Harvey was an accident. Batman's never in a position in TDK where him killing the Joker to save someone is a consequence.

I absolutely agree. It's a problem I've had with a lot of modern comics. It depends on how the writers approach the story. By making it darker, it risks coming at the expense of the hero being unheroic, if that makes sense. In The Dark Knight's case, the writers wanted to enforce a moral conflict between Batman and the Joker, which didn't ring true after everything that Batman did to the other villains before and after. In other media, Batman tends to enforce his moral code consistently, which is fine. But once a story keeps emphasizing that the villains are deviant serial killers who are guaranteed to escape and do harm to innocent people again, you begin to question Batman and lose empathy for him.

It's a huge problem I had with Superman vs The Elite. In that film, Superman faced a conflict where traditional moral values are being challenged by another group of anti-heroes, who are secretly cold-blooded killers. They took advantage of a situation where they killed Atomic Skull after he had escaped from prison and begins another massacre, much to Superman's disapproval. As manipulative and corrupt as the Elite were, I couldn't help but see where they were coming from when they declared that the only situation to destroy all pure evil is to destroy it. Superman knew very well that Atomic Skull was a murderer and would seek to kill again and again, and yet he still abides his belief that the greater good is found in everyone. It reached a point where I found Superman to be morally irresponsible, and that's something I don't want in a comic book story.

It's all about treatment. If writers want to have Batman, Superman or whoever else to face up against deranged killers, they need to tread carefully when it comes to the ramifications of the damage they bring.

No, I'm sorry. People aren't responsible for the actions of others because they didn't stop them at some point before. Have a very great day both of you!

God bless you both! God bless everyone!

You don't get what I am saying, boy. It's a preconceived hatred of Snyder. Even strengths of BvS are dismissed and turned into products of shame. A section of people simply do NOT want BvS to succeed. This hatred is clear as day, yet some oafs out there turn a blind eye and keep drinking the cool aid with an extra dose of ice blocks. And perhaps with a slice of lemon peel. I quite like Begins, but the other two can swing like a carcass in the breeze as far as I am concerned. I've had a decade to assess the Nolan series and spit it out like a spoonfull of grubs. BvS gets sliced and diced for being a droning bore, yet Rises gets a free pass. It's double standards. TDK Rises should be called A Walk Down Memory Bane: A Series of Nonsensical Speeches. Nolan is a golden child with the critics, and Snyder is not. They make no secret they don't like the guy, and I mean personally too. BvS was effectively dead out of the gate with a section of critics. And now that childish petition to have him sacked is floating around. The usual suspects are licking their lips.

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they just don't think Snyder is a good storyteller. I don't know what nonsensical speeches there are in TDKRises and I don't know why talking and discussing things is boring to you. But you're calling people names. There's no reason for that. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

And let's get real. The Nolan army has their back up. They're feeling the competitive backlash against their brand and will bring down the replacement if given the chance. I find it rich that BvS is called a hollow, boring film devoid of humour or warmth, when that describes TDK Rises perfectly. But hey, that one gets a free pass.

TDKRises has plenty comedy and warmth. It's a little cold certainly. But yeah, I'd figure devoid of much humor and much warmth fits BvS pretty well. This movie falls short in those areas of every Batman film adaption. Not just the Nolan movies. It seems that there's irony in you saying that people bashing this is because they don't like the idea of it being viewed as better than another version. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!