Did Batman create the villains?

Started by Catwoman, Wed, 6 May 2015, 18:36

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To your comment about TDKR and his "inspiring" people, don't forget the mutants becoming the Sons of Batman and taking it WAY too far.

I had forgotten about the theater part. It took over 25 years but life sort of imitated art, only it was pure evil in real life. That story is the worst and I hate myself for even bringing it up. The worst punishment known to man isn't enough for that satan incarnate. :(

I think the BTAS episode "Trial" gives the best answer.

QuoteI used to believe Batman was responsible for you people but now I see nearly everyone here would have ended up exactly the same, Batman or not. Oh, the gimmicks might be different, but you'd all be out there in some form or another bringing misery to Gotham. The truth is, you created him.

^A very good counterexample there.

The issue over whether or not Batman inspires criminals does make for fascinating analysis. The other day, I was reading a comic made in 1989 called Secret Origins Special, and it was about a bleeding heart TV reporter who came to Gotham to interview witnesses associated to some of the city's most dangerous villains. He had an agenda to run a story about how the criminals were misunderstood victims of society and driven insane by Batman; similar to how Dr. Bartholomew Wolper was criticising Batman to support Joker in Dark Knight Returns.

Batman warned the reporter his agenda was terribly misguided, dangerous for his own safety, and Gotham City is a lot more complicated than he thinks it is. The reporter refused to take Batman's advice into account - he even perceived it as a threat - and ran the story. After concluding his report by asking the audience on camera if the likes of Joker, Two-Face etc would still be who they are if it weren't for Batman, the entire story ends with the reporter being poisoned by Joker Venom, presumably laughing himself to death.

One thing is certain, Gotham City would've been far worse without Batman. But in the Joker's case, there is some truth to Batman's presence having some negative consequences.

Interestingly, the average Joe who were interviewed by the reporter in this story were mostly apathetic towards Batman. Some still believed he was an urban legend. Very different compared to how Frank Miller explored how Batman's return from his decade long absence sparked debate in DKR.
QuoteJonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Quote from: Slash Man on Thu, 14 May  2015, 04:26
I think the BTAS episode "Trial" gives the best answer.

QuoteI used to believe Batman was responsible for you people but now I see nearly everyone here would have ended up exactly the same, Batman or not. Oh, the gimmicks might be different, but you'd all be out there in some form or another bringing misery to Gotham. The truth is, you created him.

I think that was meant to be a plausible but questionable claim, especially as the attorney in defending Batman was also trying to save herself. And the episode kind of concludes that whether he did create them or not he is needed to deal with them.

Quote from: Andrew on Wed,  3 Oct  2018, 19:15
Quote from: Slash Man on Thu, 14 May  2015, 04:26
I think the BTAS episode "Trial" gives the best answer.

QuoteI used to believe Batman was responsible for you people but now I see nearly everyone here would have ended up exactly the same, Batman or not. Oh, the gimmicks might be different, but you'd all be out there in some form or another bringing misery to Gotham. The truth is, you created him.

I think that was meant to be a plausible but questionable claim, especially as the attorney in defending Batman was also trying to save herself. And the episode kind of concludes that whether he did create them or not he is needed to deal with them.
I was reading War on Crime again after many years and the last few panels have pertinent material on the validity of Batman's crusade. Batman's monologue states "I know I am fighting a war I can never completely win" so the focus should be on the small victories. The key part for me is "I helped Marcus deal with his pain. It will take him some time. But I know it will eventually leave him. Maybe some day I'll feel I can leave mine behind as well. But for now I still wait."

I agree with the comic's assessment. Bruce dons the cape and protects the City along the way, which is a positive for the masses. But Batman remains an individual experience because his own personal issues are so central to his very being. His stated endgame is to leave behind pain - however long that takes. And as we know, in the vast majority of incarnations it means waiting his whole life. Therefore Batman is mostly about feeling better about oneself in the moment, being an outlet for rage and sadness that is on a constant loop. Emotions that become like old friends that deep down he may not even want to say goodbye to. Because if he does, he feels as if he's betraying the memory of his parents, and the seriousness of their murder.