Ok, let's get real for a sec

Started by Catwoman, Mon, 4 May 2015, 10:20

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I get your point, but I've started to let my anger go in relation to the Nolan crowd. I'm enjoying Batman on my own terms. I'm opening my heart to the spirit of the films, even if they're not my thing. Dent wanted to kill the Joker, but after the explosion, he put his faith in the coin. Just like the comic book character. Once the coin made the decision to spare the Joker, that was it. He accepted its decision and moved on to other people, namely Gordon and the dirty cops. I'm willing to roll with that. The Joker turned Dent insane, while he was still seeking a form of justice based on rationalism.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 10 Aug  2016, 00:45
Yeah, that's right. Two-Face is an extension of the Joker. He caused chaos around the city by playing twisted games, and Dent was simply one of the casualties. Two-Face was tricked into thinking he had free will, when he was actually a pawn of the Joker.

This raises an interesting point about the perception of free will. One of the central themes in The Dark Knight is the conflict between order and chaos, between control and freedom. Dent's a fascinating character because he presents an outward paradigm of order: a yin-yang symbol split neatly down the centre, with good and bad coexisting. But inwardly he's completely out of control. He can't make important decisions, instead relying on the toss of a coin to guide his actions. Perhaps the most extreme example of his lack of self-assertion was in Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, where he literally couldn't go to the bathroom without his tarot cards making the decision for him. His very instincts became subservient to external direction from fate itself. Nolan's take on the character omits several elements from the comics, but it gets this particular aspect right. By contrast, Schumacher's Two-Face asserts arguably too much self-control when he flips his coin repeatedly to get the outcome he desires. As soon as he does that, his coin – and everything is symbolises – becomes subservient to his will.

Schumacher did a better job depicting the split personality aspect of Dent, along with his binary fixation. Nolan did a better job of conveying the pathos of his transition from hero to villain, and also his fatalistic dependency on the coin to determine his actions. The Batman: The Animated Series version was the best IMO, because it covered more or less every aspect of the character. But as far as live action incarnations are concerned, I rank Eckhart as the best to date. I know some people complain about him not being Two-Face for enough of the films running time, but I feel that's like complaining about Nicholson's Joker dying at the end of Batman 89. We're living in the age of the shared universe where long-form storytelling structures have conditioned us to expect open-ended narratives. It doesn't matter if a character is depicted satisfactorily these days, because we know they'll return in a later film. But when Batman 89 and The Dark Knight were made, audiences expected complete self-contained narratives with beginnings, middles and endings. As others have said, TDK is not the story of Two-Face. But arguably it is the story of Harvey Dent. Two-Face is merely the dark final chapter of that story. And his death is the fitting conclusion.

Schumacher only really depicted Dent in two scenes: his opening monologue with the security guard and the scene where he thanks Batman for reminding him to flip his coin. Throughout the rest of the film he's completely Two-Face. By contrast, Nolan was more interested in Harvey. In Schumacher's film you get Two-Face with echoes of Harvey. In Nolan's you get Harvey with echoes of Two-Face. Neither is perfect, and preference will likely depend on which take you find most interesting: Two-Face the rampaging villain or Harvey Dent the fallen hero. I find the latter more appealing and I think Nolan's interpretation worked beautifully in the context of his trilogy.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 10 Aug  2016, 12:41
Dent wanted to kill the Joker, but after the explosion, he put his faith in the coin. Just like the comic book character.


Putting all his faith into the coin removes himself from the equation, in his eyes. Yes, he's the one pulling the trigger, but he others himself from the outcome. He's a slave to the coin, just as Wesker puts all the blame onto Scarface. On your point about TDK Dent dying, I think it was also for the best. This incarnation had a grudge that only went so far. He wanted to bring unbiased justice to Gordon and his unit of dirty cops. What does he do after that? Confronting Gordon and his family was the endgame, regardless if Dent survived past that encounter. He became a broken man who was willing to kill children, just so Gordon could feel his pain of loss. To the point he flipped the coin on himself to commit suicide, even though he was denied of this wish.

Dent sees Rachel and himself as victims of fate and other people's mistakes. As long as he can continue blaming fate and other people for his actions – i.e. by flipping the coin and shifting responsibility for Rachel's death onto others – he can continue to see himself as an innocent victim. Even at the end, I don't think Eckhart's Two-Face ever saw himself as a villain. He still thought he was the hero pursuing justice.

And I agree that he needed to die when he did. When you factor in the more realistic portrayal of his injuries, combined with how mentally and emotionally broken he was, it becomes clear he was on borrowed time anyway. His whole crusade to avenge Rachel was basically a suicide mission.

Indeed. Life has no purpose for him, so he puts it into the coin.

I love Jack, and he's my favourite Joker. But I now feel Ledger truly was his successor. Perhaps because it feels like a modern update on a classic. Both meet the mob and kill one of the members. Both have disregard for cash - one throws it away and the other burns it. Both stare down Batman charging at them in vehicles, which crash. Both use makeup but for different purposes. Both announce crimes on TV. Both share an interest in Bruce's girlfriend, and both have a final battle atop a building, and fall over the edge.

It's these similarities that I admire, but it's all nonetheless in stark contrast due to Ledger's tonal difference of being a grungy, long haired lout. Sadly, we haven't seen enough from Leto to make a judgement. Perhaps that will be the solo Batman film.