Design Changes and Canonicity

Started by Slash Man, Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 06:45

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WB and toy companies interfering with a media adaptation is nothing new, as you know. But unlike what happened to the Schumacher films, I'd say BTAS benefited from studio interference because we wouldn't get the BR-inspired Penguin or the grey-costumed Catwoman.

Another thing I noticed is that Gotham City was redesigned in TNBA too. It resembled more of a modern city than the 40s Art Deco look. Which is odd because the Superman show had architecture in Metropolis similar to BTAS' Gotham.
QuoteJonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Given the choice I would have preferred the black suit that was very Returns-y

Going back to how design changes are factored into the series', the comic tie-ins may contribute some information to this, specifically, Batman Adventures: The Lost Years, which serves its purpose to fill the gap in between series'. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get ahold of many issues; the collected edition is quite pricey. Though I read online that Gotham Adventures at least explains that Selina Kyle's blonde hair in the first series was a result of dying, but she gave that up in the new series because that product involved animal testing. Fair enough.

Though canonicity of the comics actually came into question when Bruce Timm made this statement:
QuoteOf course, we'd teamed them up previously in the comics- we'd done that annual. The comic book animated continuity is actually different than the actual animated continuity- they'll do things that contradict what we do and vice versa. But for the sake of the Demon story we did in the animated show, we subsumed the annual we had done into the animated continuity just to get things moving faster.
I guess he's just trying to be safe in the sense that both mediums can be independent of each other. Though the fact remains that the comic series only existed to tie-in to the animated series. Meanwhile, aspects of the comics (i.e. Mad Love) were directly lifted from the comics for the show. So I believe there still is an intentional connection. But because the show is the dominant medium and takes priority when it comes to canon in instances where one source contradicts the other.

Fri, 7 Nov 2014, 01:56 #14 Last Edit: Sat, 8 Nov 2014, 06:34 by Slash Man
I've also found the original renditions of Catwoman/Penguin. I like Catwoman's design, I could totally see it as a precursor to her suit during the series, she comes off as a lot younger. It also seems to reflect the classic cat burglar persona of her during the golden age.

The next picture is Bruce Timm's sketch of Danny DeVito on the set of Batman Returns when they were still developing the characters. It seems Timm was really opposed to the Returns design, as his caricature carries over little of DeVito's distinct features, aside from the shape and proportions.

Another instance of the redesign creating a conflict is with the Ventriloquist/Scarface. While Scarface has a knack for being destroyed, he was intact last we saw him in Lock-Up. Aside from that, we've seen that Wesker rebuilds him in the same form each time. And of all the redesigns, Wesker looks like a doodle. And speaking of Scarface, how did Batman obtain him? Double Talk was supposedly The Ventriloquist's sendoff (a good one at that), and Scarface was completely destroyed, making me believe Batman had a replica (maybe it was the first Scarface that got riddled with bullets, but was still intact). I think The Ventriloquist was seen during Over the Edge with Scarface, so maybe he reverted back, and Scarface eventually wound up in Batman's hands.

EDIT:
Back on topic: the defunct TNBA website had an interesting tidbit (on discussion of the Batcave):
QuoteHere are displayed intriguing souvenirs from Batman's toughest cases: a collection of the Penguin's deadly umbrellas, a preserved Joker laughing fish, one of Harley Quinn's popguns, a bullet-riddled Scarface dummy, Bane's mask and Venom tank, Baby Doll's gun-doll, Mad Hatter's top hat, Maxie Zues's lightning weapon and many other mementoes
Never realized it before, but Scarface is full of bullets... this then confirms that Batman kept the Ventriloquist's first Scarface dummy, and got around to displaying him with the rest of the mementoes during the TNBA era. The fact that this Scarface should be the same design as the TAS version confirms that this is not a literal redesign.

Bane's mask and venom tank... This again is clearly a reference to Bane's TAS outing, where Batman is seen to remove both of these items. Makes you wonder how he ended up in possession of these - Batman threw them to Rupert Thorne before he left. Oh well, this explains why Bane had a new mask and venom apparatus.

Mad Hatter's top hat - Mad Hatter was still active during TNBA, so this must be a part of his original costume. His new suit was an actual change.

Quote from: Slash Man on Fri,  7 Nov  2014, 01:56
The next picture is Bruce Timm's sketch of Danny DeVito on the set of Batman Returns when they were still developing the characters. It seems Timm was really opposed to the Returns design, as his caricature carries over little of DeVito's distinct features, aside from the shape and proportions.

Yes, Timm was forced to loosely adapt DeVito's physical interpretation in the cartoon. I get the feeling that Timm is a comic book purest. For instance, he had to be convinced that Brainiac was an AI who had a hand in Krypton's destruction in Superman: The Animated Series.

If Timm was forced to adapt a Joker who looked like Ledger, I wouldn't be surprised that he'd be extremely pissed off.

And so he should, in my opinion.  ;)

Quote from: Slash Man on Fri,  7 Nov  2014, 01:56
Bane's mask and venom tank... This again is clearly a reference to Bane's TAS outing, where Batman is seen to remove both of these items. Makes you wonder how he ended up in possession of these - Batman threw them to Rupert Thorne before he left. Oh well, this explains why Bane had a new mask and venom apparatus.

I think it's either possible that Batman fought Bane wearing that costume one more time off-screen before the design change...or the collection is nothing more than an Easter egg.  :-\
QuoteJonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

All very likely. Though to my knowledge, most of those never actually appeared in any episodes, the character bios on the website just said that Batman kept them (the exception being Scarface, which was eventually shown).

Bane did eventually return back to South American, and came back when Gotham was vulnerable, but that doesn't mean that him and Batman didn't meet again in the time in between.

So I didn't previously know this, but the Poison Ivy never appears during The New Batman Adventures. Let me elaborate:

The comic tie-in shows that the new Poison Ivy is just a clone of Pamela Isley, and then dies as the secret is revealed by the real Pamela. Not sure how I feel about that plot twist, and all the development that DIDN'T happen because it wasn't the real Poison Ivy in TNBA. This retcon seems to be how the creators explain Poison Ivy's new look, as well as her more supernatural abilities.

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/672339.html

Someone had already mentioned that, but no one paid her any mind as usual.

Quote from: Catwoman on Sat,  1 Nov  2014, 00:12
Oops I didn't realize this was just about the design in terms of canon. Hm.

Ivy's, she changed a lot, but wasn't there like a comic book or something that takes place after the newer show where her new design like melts away sort of like she did in her escape in the House and Garden epi (one of the best epis ever of BTAS btw) and her BTAS design shows up and reveals the new one was a clone or something? I think I read that but I may have imagined it when I fell off the cart and got drunk lol.

Quote from: Slash Man on Tue, 20 Sep  2016, 04:42
So I didn't previously know this, but the Poison Ivy never appears during The New Batman Adventures. Let me elaborate:

The comic tie-in shows that the new Poison Ivy is just a clone of Pamela Isley, and then dies as the secret is revealed by the real Pamela. Not sure how I feel about that plot twist, and all the development that DIDN'T happen because it wasn't the real Poison Ivy in TNBA. This retcon seems to be how the creators explain Poison Ivy's new look, as well as her more supernatural abilities.

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/672339.html
Not sure I like that revelation, considering all the characters had design overhauls.