"Watered Down Version(s) of Joker"- Chris Nolan's View on the Rogue's Gallery?

[riddler]

I wont overly commend Nolans choices. Still some good villains which haven't been touched on screen (including the pervious series); Hugo Strange, Back mask, man bat, the mad hatter, harley quinn.

I like the way they are used though; several other superhero films mash the villains in. Nolan figured out how to use minor and major villains properly.

[The Joker]

Do NOT agree with Nolan on many of Batman's rogues gallery being 'Watered down Joker's', just like I don't agree that the Penguin would be too 'tricky' to do in the movies either. Take the time and read the Penguin's one shot in the 'Joker's Asylum' series, or the recent limited series, "Penguin: Pride and Prejudice" and it's apparent that the Penguin is extremely ruthless, but far from anything that can remotely be suggested as Joker-lite, and a interesting villain in his own right.

The Riddler and others I could mention fit into this as well. But if that's Nolan's perspective, ok. Fine. Whatever.

[riddler]

Do NOT agree with Nolan on many of Batman's rogues gallery being 'Watered down Joker's', just like I don't agree that the Penguin would be too 'tricky' to do in the movies either. Take the time and read the Penguin's one shot in the 'Joker's Asylum' series, or the recent limited series, "Penguin: Pride and Prejudice" and it's apparent that the Penguin is extremely ruthless, but far from anything that can remotely be suggested as Joker-lite, and a interesting villain in his own right.

The Riddler and others I could mention fit into this as well. But if that's Nolan's perspective, ok. Fine. Whatever.

The Penguin is nothing like the Joker nor is he as far fetched as Nolan claims. The penguins aspirations run from politics (while Danny Devitos character did stray from the true essence, the framing of batman and running for mayor are both right up the characters alley) to arms dealing; two things the Joker would not care for (he even says he doesn't like guns, prefers knives). The Joker does what he does more as a game for enjoyment whereas the Penguin is more of a schemer.

The riddler is a hybrid of the 2, he does usually have a plan and goal but for him he gets a kick out of the thrill and the chase. The Penguin only cares about the end result, he doesn't care how he gets what he's after as long as he gets it. The Joker is more like a dog chasing cars, lives in the short term and enjoys causing anarchy and isn't after anything concrete. The riddler usually has a plot but wants to win specifically by outsmarting his foes.


So let's say there was an extremely value artifact from the gotham museum; the Penguin would simply take the best path to get it either by stealth or force. The riddler would try and do it outsmarting people. Joker might go after the artifact but even if he got it, he'd probably destroy it or throw it away. But that's why I like the riddler so much, he's versatile. The penguin would never try most of the jokers plots and vice versa whereas the riddler would try either (just using his riddles).

[Gotham Knight]

The only reason that Nolan thinks they're Joker lite is because he instantly takes every 'psycho type' villains to SAW territory. So yeah, I guess he's right, but only because of his own lack of originality.

[gordonblu]

It sounds like Nolan's outlook on Batman's rogue gallery is influenced by Schumacher's treatment of them!

[Azrael]

Yeah, I agree. Watching the Schumacher films, it feels like the actors approached the villains as variations of the Joker with different names and costumes.

[The Joker]

Guess you really can't add a whole lot of depth to a villain when before each take, Schumacher was apparently telling the crew:

"Now remember folks, it's a CARTOON!!!"

[riddler]

Guess you really can't add a whole lot of depth to a villain when before each take, Schumacher was apparently telling the crew:

"Now remember folks, it's a CARTOON!!!"

Even scenes which had the potential to be dramatic, he ruined; freeze watching his wedding video but they had to have the tear freeze and the stupid subsequent line "I hate when people talk during the movie", also the final conversation between batman and freeze which was one of the stronger points but again contained a silly line "take 2 of these and call me in the morning"

[thecolorsblend]

The Penguin is nothing like the Joker nor is he as far fetched as Nolan claims. The penguins aspirations run from politics (while Danny Devitos character did stray from the true essence, the framing of batman and running for mayor are both right up the characters alley) to arms dealing;

I have no clue where this "arms dealer" thing has ever come from. I've never seen a comic where that's been his thing specifically. Not saying they don't exist; just that I've never seen them.

But it's not like the Penguin is a hard character to get right. Implicit in his character is a yearn for acceptance by a society that has in many ways rejected him. Burton really hammered that point again and again but I'd argue that from his first appearance... well, doesn't it say something that he targeted Gotham's upper crust? And as far as characters who hob nob with the 1%, run for mayor, try to appear respectable (no matter what's going on in the backroom), the Penguin takes a back seat to nobody. What he does is motivated primarily by acceptance. Secondarily, I'd argue he's motivated by control. Once society has accepted him, his next logical move is an attempt to control society. This is why politics and elected office would appeal to him. You win their support, you win their donations, you win their votes... and then you own them.

Frankly, I can't think of any characterization of the Joker that's motivated by any of those values.

That said, I think what Nolan was saying was that he wanted to shoot for a different type of villain. Ra's al Ghul challenged Batman's mind (on paper anyway, God knows I don't think much of that comes across in the film), the Joker challenged Batman's worldview and so Nolan probably wanted a villain who would challenge Batman physically. He didn't see the value in adapting a villain who would challenge Batman in the same essential ways the Joker did... which is maybe an argument for not shooting his wad with Two Face in TDK but whatever.

[greggbray]

If I'm not mistaken Penguin was briefly an arms dealer of sorts (or at least a hoarder) in No Man's Land.

There had been a rumor that Phillip Seymour Hoffman would play a British arms dealer in The Dark Knight Rises, and the speculation around that rumor was that the BAD would be The Penguin.

Since then, the notion of Penguin as Arms Dealer has more or less hung around. 

A gripe I have with Nolan's use of the characters in TDKR is that they feel like watered down versions of themselves.  Bane was a watered down version of Bane from the comics.  Selina Kyle (though I feel Hathaway was excellent in the role) was not allowed to be called 'Catwoman.'   And so on.  Miranda wasn't all that developed to be Talia--we get that as an easter egg.  Etc.

While I love The Dark Knight and enjoy Batman Begins, I'm a bit stunned by how successful this film has been.  Greg Rucka posted on tumbler that he felt Nolan was ashamed to admit he was making a film about a comic book superhero.  That's kind of the impression I got by the end of TDKR.  It's a shame, as I felt a good series could have been built on the TDK foundation.