Messages

Thanks for posting these. I've never seen them before.
The one in the middle is one of the best full length shots I've ever seen of the Returns suit.
I like the one with the batarang too. I'm surprised nobody's tinkered with that one to make it look like he's holding up a book or something.
I'd love to see more if you've got them.

Interesting to see Christian Slater at the premiere.

From his IMDb page:

Arrested in West Hollywood, California, after allegedly leading sheriff's deputies on a car chase. A sheriff's spokesman said Slater crashed into a telephone pole, kicked a cop after getting out of his car, then tried to escape over a fence. He was charged with evading police, driving under the influence, assault with a deadly weapon {his cowboy boots} and driving with a suspended license. [29 December 1989]

Slater was asked about this incident during an appearance on Top Gear a few years ago. He attributed his reckless behaviour to a certain movie he'd just seen.

Around the 3:40 mark in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3bthY07BO8

Has anyone ever heard of these characters or are they completely made-up

There was a John Blake in the comics, but I seriously doubt its him...



Joker stealing a kid's report card is far too horrific for a PG-13 film.

Offhand, I can only think of one prominent character called Blake in the Batman comics and that's Thomas Blake, aka. Catman. Catman was obsessed with Selina Kyle/Catwoman and copied her MO in the perpetration of his own crimes (interestingly, he believed his suit granted him nine lives – a belief adopted by Burton's Kyle in the movie).



In recent years Catman has been depicted as more of an anti-hero/vigilante. During the Battle For the Cowl story arc he even teamed up with Bane to try and maintain order following Batman's alleged death.
   


If JGL's character is based on Thomas Blake, then maybe he's an ally of Catwoman or Bane who's gone undercover in the police department. Or perhaps the leaked storyline about other heroes stepping up to fill Batman's boots is true, and Blake will be one of them. Or maybe the earlier rumours about him playing Alberto Falcone are true, and he's infiltrated the police department under the guise of an honest cop in order to get close to Gordon. It's too early to tell at this stage.

As far as Miranda Tate goes – I'm pretty certain she's Talia in disguise. I expect she'll be a bit like Jezebel Jet from the Batman R.I.P. storyline – ostensibly a supportive confidante for Bruce Wayne, but in reality an agent of the Black Glove (or in this case, League of Shadows) who infiltrates his innermost defences as part of a wider scheme to destroy him. She'll appear misleadingly good natured – perhaps presenting herself to Bruce as a kind of second chance for him to have what he missed out on with Rachel – but will ultimately prove to be the architect of his downfall.

Then again, this plot twist seems way too obvious. Perhaps Tate is merely a red herring and it's actually Hathaway's Selina that'll turn out to be Talia. Either way, I don't recall there being a Miranda Tate in the comics. At least not off the top of my head.

I cant help but to wonder, where is the comic book Batman's height stated?

The official DC Encyclopaedia gives Batman's height as being 6'2. He's supposed to weigh 210lbs and has black hair and blue eyes. This is the official description given by DC Comics. Some online sources peg his height at 6'3 and his weight at 230lbs, but I'm not sure where those figures originated.

The adult Dick Grayson – who in the current comics is protecting Gotham as Batman while Bruce Wayne oversees his Batman Inc scheme – is 5'10, weighing 175lbs, with blue eyes and black hair. Aside from a throwaway remark from Gordon about Batman looking slightly shorter than he used to, no one really complained about the 5'10 Grayson taking over as the Dark Knight.

Some guys just can't stay out of trouble...

"I lost many assumptions about the simple nature of right and wrong. And when I traveled, I learned the fear before a crime and the thrill of success. But I never became one of them."




I think you could be right about McCabe in the gravity boots scene, Ral.

It's hard to find any concrete info on Keaton's preparation for the first film. There's a lot of info available about his and Pfeiffer's training for Batman Returns, but not for the 89 movie. I suppose it's possible he could have had another kickboxing instructor in America before he left for London. But if he had I would've expected it to be mentioned in one of the promotional articles. It's the sort of titbit the producers would have released to allay the concerns of the fans. But the only evidence I can find of him ever training at a martial arts dojo was around 1991/2 when he was studying at Urquidez's gym in North Hollywood. And the only mention of him undergoing martial arts training for the 89 film concerns Lea teaching him on the set. I'd be interested if anyone has more info on the subject.

Yeah, I thought that 'unknown' comment was a bit off. Rogers was always one of my favourite Batman artists. Didn't he do some pre-production concept art for the 89 film?

[PRE-BATMAN]

A lot has been written about Christian Bale's impressive physical preparation for the Batman films. So here's my attempt to compile a similar overview of Keaton's training. Feel free to exchange opinions and trivia about Keaton's action movie roles, martial arts training and general suitability for the part of Batman. This has always been a major point of contention regarding his Batman and it seems like everyone has an opinion on the matter.



Regarding the height issue, conflicting reports state he's either 5'9 or 5'10. Whichever it is, he's about average height for a Caucasian male and roughly four inches shorter than Batman's height in the comics (though he's the same height as the Dick Grayson Batman from the current comics).



To be fair though, only one Batman actor has actually been as tall as the comic version and that was Adam West. According to the IMDB, Christian Bale is only 2 inches taller than Keaton. Kilmer is about the same height as Bale, and Clooney is only half an inch taller than Keaton. Technically none of them are big enough to portray Batman. So accepting that none of them are physically right for the role, the question really becomes – was Michael Keaton any less appropriate than the other actors?


PRE-BATMAN

Dann Gire defended Keaton's casting in Cinefantastique, citing the actor's turn in Touch and Go (1986) as evidence of his onscreen formidability:

"He's not tough enough." You obviously didn't see TOUCH AND GO, a 1986 feature in which Keaton played a Chicago hockey player. Those guys aren't cream puffs. In an early scene, Keaton checks a group of would-be muggers in the parking lot with a couple of powerful kicks and some basic man-handling. Late in the story, Keaton chases down a rapist on the beach and beats the stuffing out of him. Trust me, this guy is tough enough to be Batman.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/articles.php?showarticle=21
   
In Touch and Go Keaton's character is a professional athlete, and the role called for him to do a fair amount of skating, running and fighting. There's a scene early in the film where he's shown working out in a gym and his physique is apparently that of a healthy average man in good shape.



He made some other comedies in the 80s that required varying degrees of physical action, including The Squeeze (1987), Beetlejuice (1988) and The Dream Team (1989). But his first really demanding physical role would be Batman 89.


BATMAN

Most sources report Keaton trained for two months in preparation for the first Batman film, building himself up to handle the heavy and constrictive costume and learning kickboxing from his stunt double, British martial artist Dave Lea. We only get a brief glimpse of his physique in the movie itself during the scene where he's training with the gravity boots. He has his back to the camera and the darkness makes it hard to discern much detail. Some have speculated it could be his stunt double. But Dave Lea had shoulder-length hair at the time of filming, so it seems more likely it's Keaton himself.



We know from our own interview with Lea that most of the fighting/action scenes were performed by stuntmen. Having said that, Keaton can clearly be seen performing some of the fighting in the movie himself. He famously injured his leg shooting the rooftop fight at the start of the film, pulling a muscle when he side-kicked one of the muggers through a doorway.



There's also the issue of the deleted Batman vs. Bob fight. Lea said he didn't know anything about this in the interview, and the behind the scenes footage clearly shows Keaton performing the fight himself. So it's safe to assume he did this one on his own. It's also clearly Keaton beating up Jack Nicholson in the final showdown.

All in all, I'd say he was in fairly average shape when he made the first film. Not bad shape, but not especially good either. In his defence though, he didn't have much preparation time. His casting was announced in July 1988 and filming commenced at the beginning October that same year. By contrast, Christian Bale had an estimated six months to prepare for Batman Begins.


BATMAN RETURNS

The last film he made before shooting Batman Returns was the action thriller One Good Cop (1991), so he was already in pretty good shape from that. But he also had more time to prepare for Batman Returns than he had for the first film. And since the production was based in Los Angeles, closer to where he lived, he was able to more effectively coordinate his training before filming commenced.



He once again trained with Dave Lea, his kickboxing instructor and stunt double from the first time around. Commenting on Keaton's kickboxing skills in Michael Singer's Batman Returns: The Official Movie Book (page 21), Lea said:

Michael was an incredibly fast learner on the first Batman, and by now there isn't much more I can teach him.

He didn't show off his physique in the movie. He did however host an episode of Saturday Night Live in 1992 just after Batman Returns came out. And in one of the sketches he displayed some brawn while beating up a character played by Chris Farley. He wasn't steroidal or anything, but he appeared to be in slim athletic shape, with better muscle definition than he had in the 89 movie. This is probably the closest we'll get to knowing what his physique was like under the suit in the second film.



It's also documented in many of the 'making of' books/articles that while Dave Lea returned as his stunt double, Keaton still performed a lot of the action/fight sequences in Batman Returns himself.

Dave Lea:

Oh yeah, we got him doing a few fights like when he drives up in the Batmobile and Michelle Pfeiffer is being held up by a clown. Tim [Burton] wanted me to get him doing something on camera, so yeah we got him involved more. Definitely.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=73


Dave Lea quoted in Michael Singer's Batman Returns: The Official Movie Book (page 45):

Michael never got fed up or frustrated with his training because it was always something new and enjoyable. The rooftop fight was the first major battle between Batman and Catwoman, so we really had to make it dramatic and strong. For me, to see Michael and Michelle working so hard was really astounding.

Second unit director and stunt co-ordinator Max Kleven quoted in Michael Singer's Batman Returns: The Official Movie Book (page 45):

Michael and Michelle are both doing their own stuff on that rooftop and its pretty unusual for two stars to do so much physical work.

POST-BATMAN

Following Batman Returns Keaton didn't make another action movie until Desperate Measures (1998). And then he really pulled out all the stops to get in shape.



While he recently appeared in the action comedy The Other Guys (2010), as well as playing a contract killer in his directorial debut The Merry Gentleman (2008), neither of those roles where really physically challenging. The last time he took a leading role in an action-oriented picture was the 2003 euro-thriller Quicksand. It'll be interesting to see if Keaton ever makes another action movie, and if so what kind of shape he'll be in when he films it.

Here's a short post about the Batman newspaper comic strip that ran following the release of Batman 89. Written by Max Allan Collins (who also wrote the English language translation of Batman: Child of Dreams) and drawn by Marshall Rogers, it was originally published between 1989 and 1991. The Desert News ran an article introducing the comic in which they pointed out the movie's influence on the strip.

Last summer's movie is not only responsible for this new comic strip, but also for a great deal of its plot.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/71391/NEW-BATMAN-COMIC-STRIP-PREMIERES-TODAY.html?pg=2

Interestingly, the article also addressed the issue of Batman killing in the movie and the comics.

Batman had no qualms about killing criminals in the movie, nor has he ever had any hangups in the comic books. In fact, historically Batman will kill when necessary, while many other superheroes will not. This difference has caused Batman's friendship with other heroes to be shaky at best. For example, Batman and Superman split up their comic book friendship in the mid 1980s because of differences relating to violence and killing. (Ironically, Superman did later have to kill three Kryptonian villains and this caused him to develop a split personality and to spend months of self-imposed exile in outer space. But he and Batman are still estranged).
The Batman movie perhaps best aligned itself with the mid-1980s graphic novel, "Batman: The Dark Knight" by Frank Miller. Hence, the surge of violence and dark overtones.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/71391/NEW-BATMAN-COMIC-STRIP-PREMIERES-TODAY.html?pg=2

The strip doesn't take place in the movie canon or the comic canon, but rather occupies a self-contained continuity that is a mixture of the two. It is implied that the series begins shortly after the events of the movie, or at least a sequence of events similar to those depicted in the movie.

The first page tells us that this is the first year of Batman's crusade, just like the film.

 

Vicki Vale has won a Pulitzer for her coverage of Batman's activities. She physically resembles Kim Basinger, albeit with shorter hair.



The first time we see her she is being interviewed on television, discussing whether Batman is a friend or foe.



She and her interviewer talk about the Joker's recent reign of terror. Apparently Batman rescued Vicki from the Joker.



Not much is known about the clown prince of crime, though he's rumoured to have been an enforcer for a recently murdered crime boss.



The details of Batman and the Joker's final confrontation are then related by Vicki. Apparently she witnessed the two of them fighting. The Joker tried to escape by grabbing a rope ladder dangling from a helicopter. Batman hurled a projectile at the Joker, causing him to let go of the ladder and plummet to his doom.



However, the Joker's death is far more ambiguous in the comic. He fell into Gotham bay and might have survived, though he is presently presumed dead by the authorities.



At the time the comic strip begins, Batman has not yet returned to Gotham following the defeat of the Joker. He's waiting for the city to summon him using the Batsignal he gave them in the wake of the Joker's demise.



This was the starting point for the strip and it clearly has its basis in the 89 film. The strip would go on to feature Catwoman, the Penguin and Two-Face, and those stories in turn influenced Batman Returns, Batman: The Animated Series and Batman Forever. I'll post more about that in the relevant threads if I get the chance.

I love the sixties Batman and 66Batman.com is a great site. I'm not a member myself but I often browse the forums for the interesting news and discussions. The people there seem like a nice bunch.
I'm sorry so many of them disliked Batman 89 though. I guess you can't please everyone.

Glad you all liked it.

I might add some stuff to the Batman Forever comic influences thread soon.

In the meantime I'd be interested to know if anyone views this movie differently in the light of Michael Gough's passing. The storyline about Alfred dying has a little more resonance for me now. They're the only scenes in the movie that Clooney plays straight. And Gough's performance deserves to be in a better movie.