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I didn't like it unfortunately. Felt too try hard. I find the axe dumb and still don't like Batman's design.

Just to add to this, I also like how the sequel brings everything full circle. Arthur's original intention in going on the Murray Franklin Show, was to publicly commit suicide. That was the plan. It's not until Murray becomes increasingly contrarian to Arthur's worldview, that Arthur decides to publicly kill Murray instead. With the sequel, when Arthur decides to discontinue his Joker persona as he slowly begins to crack, he's essentially met with the same disappointment Arthur once had with Murray Franklin. culminating with one of the Joker's most ardent supporters being given the opportunity by the guards to murder Arthur, and reciting the very same line "Joker" famously said to Murray Franklin, "You get what you f**king deserve.

Yep. There's disappointment and confusion circulating about who the 'real Joker' is. Some viewers are adamant the inmate who stabs Arthur was actually the Joker all this time because he begins laughing and carves his own face. To me that's nothing more than Arthur's legacy, which wasn't originally intended - he was acting independently in the first movie, as he says "do I look like the kind of clown that could start a movement?" To me, The Joker of this series is both a real man and an idea. Arthur took on the title, abandoned it, then the followers sought to preserve the spirit of Arthur's original appearance on Murray Franklin. Arthur did take on the moniker first. He put on makeup and dyed his hair green. He had various traits of the comic character, namely suicidal ideation, off color jokes, extreme thinness, killing people on television, etc. He had his own version of Harley albeit with a twist to their relationship. The point is that NOBODY can live up to the shadow of what it all stands for, not even Arthur's killer who carved himself a smile. In this more real setting he's staying locked up in jail and probably getting a death sentence too. A point is that people only see the anarchy and not the mentally troubled man behind it all.

Right. Lee was not dissimilar to particular women who wind up having a thing for serial killers (probably even more so if they are fairly 'high profile'). As there is assuredly an element of infamous illustriousness that they find attractive given the reputation. I doubt Lee in this universe ever really did anything interesting with her life, but she was able to pull strings and get close to Arthur in the hopes of getting a "show". Much like the Joker followers in the film. Arthur, as "Joker" was a willing participant in being the showman, until the fantasy was no longer gratifying any longer. And that's all they really had. The fantasy. 

Interesting comparisons to Ted Bundy in the movie too. He got rid of his defence team, represented himself and had a delusional female (Carole) strongly fighting his case. The difference is that she believed Ted was innocent. Lee liked Arthur for his killing. When Bundy admitted to being a murderer in his last days (mainly as a last ditch tactic) Carole stopped talking and wanted nothing to do with him. Her delusion was over. In contrast, Lee walked away too but her warped mindset continued. They both loved the man on the stands for who they thought them to be.

Just to talk about some positives, I have to say I really liked the WB Looney Tunes Joker intro that comically foretells Arthur as the Joker, and his "shadow".

It's a testament to you as a big fan of the character you can see the intent of what's going on: that Arthur can't match his shadow. I think the hard backlash is because viewers really do love the Joker as a character and see Folie A Deux as severely disrespecting him. I get that passion.

When Lee stands up and leaves the room that's exactly what we're seeing in real life with the negative feedback. Total abandonment of Arthur and rushing to elevate what Joker typically stands for. Comic Joker is complete bulletproof confidence and an ability to escape at will. That's not the case here.

The guards liked Arthur, but the inmates liked Joker. He had to straddle that line and eventually he chose to be Arthur. No choice has good outcomes, as the film depicts. It literally causes his death with the shanking in terms of the other prisoners, and it pushes Lee and his followers away. But he's the one being raped in there.

He had to listen to his friend being killed. Those guards were God. I imagine Arthur came to see how being Joker (as recently as the courtroom appearance) became more about pleasing others compared to his original gripe that drove him to murder in the first place. Acting as a comic book character has its limits on real people.

I guess I'll see what everyone is saying outside of here. I still haven't read or watched any reviews. I think I'll queue up some YT reviews tonight. Again, I'm pretty bummed on this one. More so than I was expecting.

I've done enough of that and I'm going to stop. It's too frustrating. I get that the film wasn't what some were expecting (that's fine) but a lot of the feedback has become a hate tsunami that ignores or dismisses what's contained within.

The supporters setting off the car bomb outside court shows the persona really has taken on a life of its own. The Joker movement already killed Thomas and Martha Wayne in the first movie, no doubt inspiring young Bruce to eventually don the cape and cowl. Arthur was never going to meet Batman either because their age disparity was too great. I just don't have a problem with what we see here in this particular context.

Arthur ends up as a victim of the same violence he was empowering. That's Life playing over the end credits feels like a fitting statement. A dream (a relationship with Lee) has been stomped, Arthur has rolled up into a big ball and died, and that's life.

The TV movie made about his rise to prominence made him a public commodity and bigger in their imaginations. I love talking about this stuff. Tonally it's no different to the original in my opinion, just expanded. Arthur hallucinated about being on Murray's show at the beginning of film one. We did have musical montages. This did push the envelope but at the same time doesn't feel out of left field to me.

I figured this film would easily wind up being divisive among fans and general audiences when I saw it this past Thurs, but holy toledo! The reactions I've read online, and including the lethargic box office numbers, sure is making it seem like Joker 2 is (almost) just flat out universally despised. I think I saw on X where "CinemaScore" or something giving it the worst score ever for a comic book movie. That, to be clear, makes Joker 2, in their estimation, worse than anything comic book related that Disney/Warners/Fox/Sony/ect has ever produced! Something I can't help but find both interesting, and incredibly amusing. LOL 

Honestly, I can't sit here and lie and tell someone I would much rather watch something like "The Marvels", or "Blue Beetle", or "Morbius" over Joker 2 cause, well, that would be lying wouldn't it? 

Yeah. The reaction has become hysterically hyperbolic. It makes the rating system absolutely worthless in my eyes if a well made film like Folie A Deux gets the tag of worst comic based film ever from rage scores of 1/5. That's the real joke. Even the original Joker movie has a low score, which to me says a lot. Folie A Deux will now have a bad reputation because of Rotten Tomatoes and a lot of sheep will go along with it. Right now I put the two Joker films up there with the Burton duology in terms of my appreciation.

I think one of the things you and I have in common, is that we don't mind films that lend into the unconventional or quirkiness (for instance I actually like the Mel Gibson movie "The Beaver" even though it's incredibly quirky, and I honestly wouldn't even call it a 'good' movie, but the offbeat comical nature of it all is just too fascinating), and I think it's safe to say that "Joker Folie à Deux" also falls into this sort of category.

Accurate. We already have the joybuzzing permawhite Joker of Nicholson and the agent of chaos from Ledger. There's room for Arthur's broken man who had his big moment on Murray Franklin and then was put in jail. What also needs to be considered about the ending is that Arthur WAS going to get the electric chair as the comic version would in reality anyway. Folie A Deux presents that reality in a stark way.

With what TDK said about musical delusions, I agree wholeheartedly. It's about insanity being locked up in a vacuum. Which, at this stage, has Arthur experiencing delusions relating to his life, what he had done, and his new connection to 'Lee'. With 'Lee' she's continually pushing Fleck, even though she at the same time, is fully aware that Arthur's past actions has obviously broken him. In the grand scheme, this isn't a bother to 'Lee'. Much like the masses, the media, and the character of Wayne Gale from "Natural Born Killers", it's about selfishness, and theatre. She, like the audience, is focused on wanting a show. Which is meta aspect of this film I think (and which also goes along with my Gremlins 2 comparisons as that film assuredly had it's share of meta moments as well).

The movie was powerful to me personally because it solidified a lot of how I've felt as an adult. That nothing really matters and nobody cares. We're really just on our own and things go through the motions. We all build things up in our imaginations that often don't match reality. Lee had celebrity worship. Arthur had delusional longing for love. She gave Arthur a sense of purpose and excitement he was lacking. I'm sure he knew Lee was a liar, but he had no one else. These movies are about the human condition and are very effective. I walked out of the cinema a different person to the one I entered, and was pondering what I had seen for hours after.

both sequels having their very own original Looney Tunes intros. Your mileage may vary, but I appreciate the different approach and taking a big swing.

Glad you're liking the movie overall, and interesting comparison. You're on the money. That opening intro felt consistent with what came later in the musical delusions too. Especially in one specific scene involving Arthur and Lee at Arkham. I think those montages fit in cleanly and transitioned in a logical way. For a film set in two main locations they provided a reprieve from the day to day existence. They're the 'comic' element juxtaposed to the brutal reality. I found the song usage charming, particularly Dancing in the Moonlight and again Sinatra's That's Life. No matter how bad things are music can soothe the soul and give a sense of hope. Billy Joel's My Life pops up as well, which has very relevant lyrics. Loved that.

It's a real deal sequel and a good one. It's undeserving of the strong hate and it seems a lot of people are buying into that without actually seeing it themselves. Or not approaching it from the right perspective when they do. They are way too hung up on 'who is the real Joker' and the ending. The crux of the movie is the cult of celebrity worship and the pressure of expectation.

IMO Arthur is absolutely the Joker of this universe regardless if we want to take that road, it's just that the legend outgrew him and took on a life of its own. I don't think he wanted to create a movement but he nonetheless was at the centre of it. Joker is mostly a construct in Arthur's mind for escapism, and a fantasy the followers fell in love with. It took too much of a toll on the real man behind it. When he gave them what they wanted he took the full brunt, especially away from the cameras. It didn't benefit him personally in the long term.

Philips and Phoenix should be getting praise - segments of the audience rejecting Arthur is proving the film's point. I love this movie the more I think about it. It's a different look at the character and I'm glad it exists.

Wow, I loved it. A great companion piece to the original. If you want a conventional comic book experience you can park your bus elsewhere. This movie is not to be joked about. Folie A Deux both defies expectations and I think leads to logical conclusions based on the construct of this particular universe. There are really interesting themes in the sequel that I'm eager to unpack, namely the reality behind myth. I'm going to work on an expanded review later. But in short it worked for me. Even the musical numbers. A brave movie that I think will be appreciated even more with time.

In the absence of a fifth film (for now) this is as good as it gets. Seeing Winston and Charon featuring prominently in the trailer makes it feel like a very legitimate addition to the franchise. And of course there's Keanu. I get the whole girl power trope being overdone but I think this can work. I do like Ana and after No Time To Die I wanted to see more of her in that type of action role. I think this is a movie that can get bums on seats for a variety of reasons.