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Let's get everyone's score for the new Justice League film!

members can leave their thoughts below (NO SPOILERS!)

I voted very good. It doesn't quite achieve the level of greatness as the Avengers and Wonder Woman, likely due to the cut scenes but it is a very fun and enjoyable film. The lighter tone is a nice change especially for a film in which the world is ending and it seems like they're listening to the fans. I'm glad DC is finally doing away with attempting to create a Christopher Nolan film without Nolan involved.

I would rate it a 7.5/10, which is very good for me.

I'm going to wait until I see it again before making a final judgement. Right now I'm in the 'good' camp.

I'm glad it's making money and most people seem to like it.

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The critic score is irrelevant when the fans like the film. So fingers crossed the movie is a success.

Please give us an extended cut!

I just got out of my second viewing a few hours ago. I still think MOS, WW and BvS are better, but it's just under them. Much better than SS, though.

When you look at how much they left out of the film - there's a comprehensive list out there - you can't help but feel disappointed. There's a much better version of the film out there and we just have to hope we get it. I think my score will remain at 6/10, but an extended cut would lift it to 7 or 8.

I liked it. It is definitely a 6/10 for me, at this time. Maybe future viewings will be more positive, but right now, I'd place it on the level of Superman II and Batman Forever.

6.5 or 7 from me. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't take any critic seriously if they call JL an irredeemable mess, but think this year's Marvel movies were great.

Quote from: GoNerdYourself on Sat, 18 Nov  2017, 00:46
I liked it. It is definitely a 6/10 for me, at this time. Maybe future viewings will be more positive, but right now, I'd place it on the level of Superman II and Batman Forever.

If WB panicked when Snyder showed them his original cut, I say SCREW YOU. These are the same executives who replaced Junkie XL with Elfman and ordered the two hour runtime. They also f###ed up Suicide Squad and made Snyder cut out 30 pivotal minutes from BvS. The no man's land scene in Wonder Woman (the best moment of the film) was nearly cut out too. These executives need to leave. JL is okay but this stuff really pisses me off.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 18 Nov  2017, 06:01
If WB panicked when Snyder showed them his original cut, I say SCREW YOU. These are the same executives who replaced Junkie XL with Elfman and ordered the two hour runtime. They also f###ed up Suicide Squad and made Snyder cut out 30 pivotal minutes from BvS. The no man's land scene in Wonder Woman (the best moment of the film) was nearly cut out too. These executives need to leave. JL is okay but this stuff really pisses me off.

Apparently, Snyder has stated he hasn't even seen his film, and went on to apologise for not being able to complete it.
https://twitter.com/DaveePena/status/931710670977974274

The thought that Snyder would've inserted all of those cut scenes from the trailers if it weren't for WB's idiotic demands is making me flustered. This goes to show that WB have NOT learned anything from the mistakes they made by removing that important half hour footage from BvS. And if it's true that they wanted to remove the No Man's Land footage from WW, then yes, they should fired.

To think publicists would call WB a "director-driven" studio. It's rubbish. Their interference is not any different than Marvel trying to control their films e.g. Iron Man 2, Age of Ultron and Ant-Man.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 18 Nov  2017, 07:51
The thought that Snyder would've inserted all of those cut scenes from the trailers if it weren't for WB's idiotic demands is making me flustered. This goes to show that WB have NOT learned anything from the mistakes they made by removing that important half hour footage from BvS. And if it's true that they wanted to remove the No Man's Land footage from WW, then yes, they should fired.

After seeing it a second time, I'm with you on the 6.5 or 7/10 score. But they'd be foolish not to do an extended cut because it'd sell like hotcakes and would satisfy the fanbase. BvS's UC did really well on home video. If a good chunk of the scenes are reinstated and pre-existing scenes are lengthened I'd be happier. I just think it's a shame if these things stay on the cutting room floor. But anyway, I won't keep repeating the same things.

One of my fave scene from the film is the discussion in the batcave when Bruce suggests they bring back Superman.

In this scene he is a leader but also a man with guilt and aggression. He has a dark side. He is willing to do whatever it takes to save the world because he knows the threat the world is facing. I also dig how Bruce acknowledges the importance of science, given his interest in that field, and his comment about having a contingency plan. This scene has it all.

"You're an inspiration Diana. You don't just save people, you make people see their better selves. And yet I never heard of you until Luthor lured you out by stealing a picture of your dead boyfriend. You shut yourself down for a century, so let's not talk about me moving on."

THAT is Bruce Wayne. Affleck delivers this in a steely way, verbally punching back after Diana physically punched him. Loved it. Plus his "he'll get over it" comment about Clark being brought back to life. Bruce walking around without the cowl is always great to see as well. Whatever happens next, Ben has been a great Batman.

I leaning more towards the "Good" option. Which is probably what I'll vote in a few minutes.

It's enjoyable enough, but I really wish WB would have catered to the fans who support the Snyder's DCEU's vision and not so much attempting to win over the detractor's.

There's some good stuff with JL, and I liked it, but I can't say the overzealous shift in tone from MOS/BvS was really that pleasing. Just makes me wish I could get my hands on a copy of Snyder's original cut for comparisons sakes.

Quote from: The Joker on Sun, 19 Nov  2017, 16:19
It's enjoyable enough, but I really wish WB would have catered to the fans who support the Snyder's DCEU's vision and not so much attempting to win over the detractor's.

You know what's dumb about this?

BvS was 2.30 mins in cinemas.
JL was 2 hours in cinemas.

JL is going to make less money than the longer film.

So the lesson I tell everyone again is to NEVER appease. NEVER take a backward step.
You just end up frustrating everyone instead of pleasing your core base.

The reaction I see around the net is similar to ours. The movie was good but for the love of Xenu, give us the FULL movie.

Superman visiting Alfred, Bruce looking at the Superman hologram, Clark hallucinating Jonathan Kent, Deathstroke breaking Lex out of jail, Cyborg's football past, Lois outing Clark as Superman to Perry at the end, etc, etc. WE WANT IT!

It's so frustrating to walk into the cinema with a bunch of friends who haven't seen any of the trailers, knowing these folks are not seeing the true version of this film. They thought it was a good movie, but their reaction SHOULD have been greater than that. WB really need to stop funkin' around in the editing bay. Put the best version possible on the big screen, not the small screen. Because that's the version everyone is going to remember the most.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 20 Nov  2017, 00:10

Quote from: The Joker on Sun, 19 Nov  2017, 16:19
It's enjoyable enough, but I really wish WB would have catered to the fans who support the Snyder's DCEU's vision and not so much attempting to win over the detractor's.

You know what's dumb about this?

BvS was 2.30 mins in cinemas.
JL was 2 hours in cinemas.

JL is going to make less money than the longer film.

So the lesson I tell everyone again is to NEVER appease. NEVER take a backward step.
You just end up frustrating everyone instead of pleasing your core base.

The reaction I see around the net is similar to ours. The movie was good but for the love of Xenu, give us the FULL movie.

Superman visiting Alfred, Bruce looking at the Superman hologram, Clark hallucinating Jonathan Kent, Deathstroke breaking Lex out of jail, Cyborg's football past, Lois outing Clark as Superman to Perry at the end, etc, etc. WE WANT IT!

It's so frustrating to walk into the cinema with a bunch of friends who haven't seen any of the trailers, knowing these folks are not seeing the true version of this film. They thought it was a good movie, but their reaction SHOULD have been greater than that. WB really need to stop funkin' around in the editing bay. Put the best version possible on the big screen, not the small screen. Because that's the version everyone is going to remember the most.

I'm afraid WB might nix the remainder of the DCEU after Aquaman. They're probably going to jump to false conclusions claiming the shared universe doesn't work for DC. The problem isn't Affleck, or Snyder, or Whedon. The problem is WB gets in their own way by meddling. Wonder Woman lacked interference from the studio and look how that turned out.

This reminds me of the Daredevil movie; shot entirely to be rated R before Fox stepped in during post production and ordered it to be cut to PG. The difference is Marvel learned their lesson and hasn't done that since while WB continues to interfere and produce lackluster results

Quote from: riddler on Tue, 21 Nov  2017, 14:38
The problem isn't Affleck, or Snyder, or Whedon. The problem is WB gets in their own way by meddling. Wonder Woman lacked interference from the studio and look how that turned out.

This reminds me of the Daredevil movie; shot entirely to be rated R before Fox stepped in during post production and ordered it to be cut to PG. The difference is Marvel learned their lesson and hasn't done that since while WB continues to interfere and produce lackluster results

Exactly right.

The jungle drums are beating.

'Justice League' Cinematographer Hopes for a Director's Cut

"This one was even shorter than I expected, so there are scenes that aren't in there. I really hope we get to see a director's cut, which will give us everything that we shot that didn't make it in," says Wagner. "What I love about his [Snyder's] director's cuts is they are long, but he takes his time to tell the story. I've never watched any of his directors cut and thought 'This is long." Whether they are three hours long, or three hours and ten minutes, they always seemed to go quick."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/justice-league-cinematographer-hopes-a-directors-cut-1060773?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Jason Momoa Says "A Lot" Got Cut from 'Justice League', Including Willem Dafoe

"We had it all planned out. A lot of things got cut. But it's not my movie."

http://collider.com/justice-league-cut-scenes-jason-momoa-aquaman/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=collidersocial

Stunt Batman explains his thoughts on an extended cut

(https://i.redditmedia.com/_5we4mDk35CxYePu1KrijbrtzvINSPP7Km1TvL0Iv7U.jpg?w=548&s=1a66d78a3b8cc750706e191196a06bcd)

Warner Bros. Faces A Possible $50M To $100M Loss On 'Justice League'

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/11/20/warner-bros-faces-a-possible-50m-to-100m-loss-on-justice-league/#410e11635d8b

Serves them right for wasting so much more money on reshoots/visual effects.

To quote a song used in the movie....EVERYBODY KNOWS.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 20 Nov  2017, 00:10


The reaction I see around the net is similar to ours. The movie was good but for the love of Xenu, give us the FULL movie.

Superman visiting Alfred, Bruce looking at the Superman hologram, Clark hallucinating Jonathan Kent, Deathstroke breaking Lex out of jail, Cyborg's football past, Lois outing Clark as Superman to Perry at the end, etc, etc. WE WANT IT!

I want to hear more about these scenes. Are there major details about them?

Check out the DCEU Leaks pages on reddit. You'll get an idea of what Snyder had in mind.

Look folks, my prime beef (with horseradish crust) is with WB.

POS Whedon and Fanny Elfman are not to blame. They only did what they do. WB hired them.

Someone posted the JL ending on Twitter and added Zimmer's Superman theme in the background. The GerMAN of Steel's music elevated the scene into something truly special. The timing was on point, with the theme peaking with the shirt rip. I can't post it here for obvious reasons...but what a crying shame. There's another an edit with The Red Capes are Coming, which they have with the Lex post-credit scene. Soooo much better.

Snyder also liked a petition calling for a director's cut. But knowing WB, they'll keep the Frankenstein version of JL as canon and keep the real deal under lock and key. Moving on when something special is being ignored doesn't sit well with me.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 22 Nov  2017, 11:27
Check out the DCEU Leaks pages on reddit. You'll get an idea of what Snyder had in mind.

I had written a news story for the site with the list you mentioned. However, a couple have been debunked, so without being completely convinced of their authenticity I chose not to post it.

Big list of content WB removed:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCEUleaks/comments/7czp9k/justice_league_deleted_scenes_from_trailers/

This film would've easily been longer than two hours.

And then there's the scenes we don't know about. There's also the final battle, which was clearly re-worked, and a huge chunk of Superman's role in the film was clearly re-shot, given the CG mouth. And that's not taking into account if Superman was truly evil for a chunk of the film.

He at the very least was supposed to have the black suit at one point in the film:

http://ew.com/article/2016/08/15/henry-cavill-black-superman-suit/

(EDIT: Though, I suppose that simply could be a B&W photograph making the suit look black.)

Also, there was that whole "Unite the Seven" thing with the Aquaman poster. There are only six members in the film. 

Quote from: GoNerdYourself on Wed, 22 Nov  2017, 15:10
And then there's the scenes we don't know about. There's also the final battle, which was clearly re-worked, and a huge chunk of Superman's role in the film was clearly re-shot, given the CG mouth. And that's not taking into account if Superman was truly evil for a chunk of the film.

Yep, it's a lot of content. I took a flip through the art of JL book, and it only covers the theatrical cut. Naturally, deleted scenes aren't featured, save for a couple of stills from unused trailer footage. The general public who simply bought a ticket for something to watch, and didn't have any emotional investment in the film's journey, don't know the real story about the film. But the fans aren't being fooled. The cut content is too big to ignore. JL is like getting a bicycle when you know a motorcycle was the original plan. The replacement does the job but you're left feeling hollow.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 18 Nov  2017, 06:01
The no man's land scene in Wonder Woman (the best moment of the film) was nearly cut out too. These executives need to leave. JL is okay but this stuff really pisses me off.

I'm replying to this again, because a fan site called Man of Steel Answers has addressed that executives never considered deleting that scene. Contains quotes by Patty Jenkins herself.

Quote
In a Fandango interview, May 2017, Director Patty Jenkins is quoted regarding the No Man's Land scene:

"It's my favorite scene in the movie and it's the most important scene in the movie.  It's also the scene that made the least sense to other people going in ... When I started to really hunker in on the significance of No Man's Land, there were a couple people who were deeply confused, wondering, like, 'well, what is she going to do?  How many bullets can she fight?' and I kept saying, 'It's not about that.  This is a different scene than that.  This is a scene about her becoming Wonder Woman.'"

Clear and direct right?  This is the director herself, quoted on the record.  However countless outlets ran this story after injecting an additional false narrative.  A few are listed purely to corroborate the point with evidence.  No other commentary is being made about these publications or the authors.  In each case, they add a narrative of Jenkins against short-sighted studio executives unable to understand a creative vision:

Slashfilm  – "when she laid out the scene to people at the studio before filming" / "in order to convince the higher-ups that it was necessary"
Business Insider  – "Jenkins said to convince others at Warner Bros. this would work"
CBR  – "the sequence was harder to sell to studio execs than one might imagine"
io9  – "someone at Warner Bros. thought at one point it wasn't worth being part of Wonder Woman's runtime" / "the scene did not go down well at all with her colleagues at Warner Bros."
Vox – "But it's also easy to see why a studio might suggest cutting the sequence." / "What's interesting about this isn't that Jenkins had to talk some of her bosses into signing off on the No Man's Land sequence."
The Mary Sue  – "For some reason, none of this registered with the higher-ups at Warner Bros, who apparently saw this entire sequence as a waste of time"
However, Jenkins had said nothing about the studio, executives, higher-ups, or Warner Brothers.  A director quote is an impeccable source, but still vulnerable to the imposition of false narratives.  At a June 11th DGA event in Los Angeles, Jenkins sat down with Richard Donner for a brief Q&A where she corrected the narrative.

Warner Brothers had not opposed the scene:

"It's funny, I feel badly about this cause it's been reported that Warner Bros. was against it, which it was not Warner Bros., it was my own people in England. It was our own crew at points, who were like, 'Why are you doing this scene? She's not even fighting anything,' So Warner Bros. was not unsupportive of the No Man's Land scene. It was much more in-process that everybody was like, 'What's this scene for? There's no one to fight. We've already seen her block a bullet in the alley and then she's going to go in and save this church tower, why do you need this other scene?'" (transcription via CinemaBlend)

The video of the event is currently down, but audio is available here in the DGA's podcast, episode 77 at 18m22s.

In other words, Patty was not battling with studio executives but her own creative team.  The fight was not about the soul of the film versus corporate interests, but between like-minded, supportive, creative individuals attempting to collaborate towards the best film.

The objections to the No Man's Land scene were based in story-beats, presenting novel challenges, and characterization (not logistical, as I claimed in error in my own Wonder Woman episode).

The concern was that Diana had already faced gunfire on the beach, the alley way, and would do so again against the village sniper; How many of their marquee moments did they want to spend on Diana and bullets yet again?  Moreover the enemy is abstract and impersonal: Wonder Woman against machine guns.  Finally, given that they would immediately start the Veld action sequence, was this scene necessary?

These are good questions and good notes, creatively, character, and story driven.  Thankfully, Jenkins had her own creative instincts to insist upon the scene.  But look how different the narrative!  Instead of a David and Goliath struggle between art and suits, this is a collaborative push-and-pull to polish a picture.  Resistance is not the enemy but the assurance that something deserves to be in the film.

Considerably fewer outlets published this correction of the narrative.

Imagine if you only knew and believed the injected false narrative. What kinds of unnecessary anger and judgment you'd bear against the studio who were, in fact, innocent of your accusation?

Fortunately, Jenkins quickly clarified and does so again in our second case.

Source: http://www.manofsteelanswers.com/dont-believe-everything-you-hear/

Fans have a way of wanting to simplify things a bit. With movies about heroes and villains, I guess it's easy for fans to project a hero/villain dichotomy onto the production of the movie itself. And there are probably cases where that's actually true too. But not always. Probably not even most of the time, in fact.

I don't doubt that the studios interfere with the film production for the majority of the time either, I just learned that the Wonder Woman example turned out to be false.

I've seen some fans suggest that JL turned out to be a product, and not a film that Zack Snyder intended to make, and Joss Whedon had far more control than we were told. I don't doubt that Whedon had a big influence in this film.

But here is my gripe with this claim:if it were true that Whedon's reshoots significantly changed to what was originally conceived, then how come Whedon wasn't officially credited for directing the film instead of Snyder? I'm basing my logic according to what happened to Superman II. As everybody knows, Richard Donner was fired by the producers and was replaced with Richard Lester, who had to reshoot a large majority of Donner's footage in order to get full credit for directing the movie. As you can see, there are significant differences between Lester's version and Donner's version of the film, which he got to release back in 2006. Unless there were changes to the director's guild or whatever it's called that determines creative rights in Hollywood, surely Whedon would've been given recognition as the official director of Justice League if the version of the movie we saw in cinemas wasn't what Snyder had intended.

If anybody can prove me wrong, please tell me.

I don't think it's known for certain yet exactly what footage Snyder shot compared to what Whedon shot. But that seems to be the main criterion in terms of who gets credit. If Whedon only shot 10% of the final product, he might not be entitled to credit.

The other thing is that union rules are guidelines. They're not necessarily chiseled in stone. Exceptions can be made.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 18 Dec  2017, 11:09
If anybody can prove me wrong, please tell me.

What you're not really understanding, is the new director credit only applies to a certain percentage of re-shoots. What happened with JL, is Whedon used a lot of existing footage, but rearranged it to a new script. One of the first scenes in the original script, was Bruce trying to get Arthur/Aquaman. It's why there was such a weird edit with his beard. In the version we got, Batman/Bruce was clean shaven, and then out of nowhere, he has a full beard, and then the reshoots make a point of Bruce saying he has to shave again. It was all rearranged in a completely different order.

So Whendon just used a bunch of preexisting footage, and then shot a few new scenes, to then come up with a different version of what was originally supposed to be. You basically get a completely different movie altogether, with only having to re-shoot a certain percentage of the film.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue, 19 Dec  2017, 07:33

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 18 Dec  2017, 11:09
If anybody can prove me wrong, please tell me.

What you're not really understanding, is the new director credit only applies to a certain percentage of re-shoots. What happened with JL, is Whedon used a lot of existing footage, but rearranged it to a new script. One of the first scenes in the original script, was Bruce trying to get Arthur/Aquaman. It's why there was such a weird edit with his beard. In the version we got, Batman/Bruce was clean shaven, and then out of nowhere, he has a full beard, and then the reshoots make a point of Bruce saying he has to shave again. It was all rearranged in a completely different order.

So Whendon just used a bunch of preexisting footage, and then shot a few new scenes, to then come up with a different version of what was originally supposed to be. You basically get a completely different movie altogether, with only having to re-shoot a certain percentage of the film.

Agreed. Even a fanedit that re-arranges existing footage can result in a very different movie, let alone a professional job by a studio director who shoots additional footage.

The entire JL affair is very depressing, really.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue, 19 Dec  2017, 07:33

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 18 Dec  2017, 11:09
If anybody can prove me wrong, please tell me.

What you're not really understanding, is the new director credit only applies to a certain percentage of re-shoots. What happened with JL, is Whedon used a lot of existing footage, but rearranged it to a new script. One of the first scenes in the original script, was Bruce trying to get Arthur/Aquaman. It's why there was such a weird edit with his beard. In the version we got, Batman/Bruce was clean shaven, and then out of nowhere, he has a full beard, and then the reshoots make a point of Bruce saying he has to shave again. It was all rearranged in a completely different order.

So Whendon just used a bunch of preexisting footage, and then shot a few new scenes, to then come up with a different version of what was originally supposed to be. You basically get a completely different movie altogether, with only having to re-shoot a certain percentage of the film.

Well said, Travesty. This is exactly what happened with Justice League. Snyder kept his directors credit, but the final product was different to what he actually had in mind. If we get an extended version on home video, I'd guess it's another 15 minutes but that's about it.

I'm pretty late getting to this film, but I finally saw it and I thought it was a descent movie. The footage on Youtube and elsewhere do it a complete disservice because it doesn't translate the actual appearance of those effects well. I thought from a CGI perspective they more than met the standard for something this heavy in application. At times it looked like 300 to me, especially when Steppenwolf goes after the Mother box from Themyscira. The only place where Superman's painted chin really jumps out (for me) is the opening sequence with the kids video taping him while asking questions. That looked sloppy. No where else did I really spend time looking too close because I was into the story and I guess nothing of note stood out on its own for me. I'm sure it will after I get the movie on Blu-ray and watch it ten times. That happens with most films though.

In terms of the characters, I thought Batman shined really well here. I  loved that opening sequence where he is fighting that thug. That whole scene and the way it was lit was about as comic bookish a moment as I have ever seen placed to film and I really liked it. THAT was Batman. Of course now that I am finally getting comfortable with Affleck, WB is getting ready to kick him to the curb so that frustrates me to no end. But I digress.

Cavill really brought Superman home in this movie, so I was thrilled about that and now I WANT a Man of Steel II which I understand is in the works. I didn't care that Clark Kent's reappearance was not explained for the Daily Bugle because Superman came in late and we only saw Kent for essentially one scene in the closing sequence, so it was unnecessary. That can be picked up in the following film. With the comics giving Superman his red shorts back, it will be interesting to see if the movies follow. I hope so. That would be great for Superman to finally gel with his iconic look in the comics.

I thought Wonder Woman was great and was utilized exceptionally well in this story. I have zero issues with her. I think Gal Gadot plays her perfectly in all phases and I can't wait for Wonder Woman II. WB keep doing what you;re doing here. For me, her performance really resonates with how I see the character. Just a superb job all around.

The Flash was a mixed bag for me. I really liked his back story and thoroughly enjoyed Snyder using Billy Crudup as Barry's dad.  Nice use of the old cast from Watchmen. How many has he used now from that cast? I know he used Harry Dean Morgan for Thomas Wayne, but I'm sure there are more. I just can't think of them at the moment. but having Barry be this insecure and naive hero was not really an issue for me. Where it got a little off kilter for me was using that as comic relief where it just wasn't needed. There were great scenes where his injection of idiotic comments just made me go, " WTH?" I think he should play that a little more straight and let the humor come from the essence of his insecurities and inexperience rather than it being the punchline for a deliberate joke. I liked most of his running sequences, just didn't understand the last scene where he's running goofy against Superman. Didn't quite understand what the thinking was behind that.

I accepted Aquaman with his general appearance, but I really took issue with his personality. His personality was just too.... whats the word... socially stylized?  I didn't envision a man from a underwater civilization carrying all of the rhythms of someone better suited for a person you and I might know, possessing all of the expressions used in the lexicon of modern society. He just felt too integrated to be from a world that exotic. It will be interesting to see how that plays in his own movie coming out later this year.

I was pleasantly surprised by Cyborg. I really liked how they flushed him out. A surprisingly human portrayal from a more fantastical concept that could have been played very generic. And I enjoyed his ability to be essentially "plugged-in" to anything that has a network. I liked that whole set up and I felt the effects on him were actually quite descent. I'm looking forward to seeing more from him. A total treat and I'm glad he's now part of the DCU theatrically. They nailed it.

I was relieved to see J.K. Simmons play Commissioner Gordon straight and not try and spin his J Jonah Jameson character into that role. He did a really good job and contrasts nicely with what he did in the Spider-man films. He'll do a really good job if they keep him in whatever Batman project eventually gets made.

I was fine with Steppenwolf and his general application to the story. I felt that Justice League already had enough story responsibilities in introducing many of the heroes, that it would have been too much information to cater to a brand name villain as well. I think the havoc Steppenwolf created presented enough backstory to bring in Darkseid at a later date. Fans tend to like their popular villains properly flushed out. I don't think this movie had enough time to do that. Had all of these heroes already been in separate movies and their stories properly told, then yes, they could have focused considerable more time to a brand name villain. Justice league did not get that advantage and I accepted that. I was there to see the heroes.

In terms of the CGI treatment on him, he was clearly a CGI character. That felt more obvious with his facial movements when he spoke. But overall he integrated into the overall look of the picture, so his presence never took me out of the story. They made him a big enough a-hole that it certainly played well when Superman showed up. So I think his villainy was properly carved out to give him all the necessary relevance needed here. I enjoyed watching him get his arse kicked at the end. I was essentially watching a very expensive version of the Sueprfriends, so some leniency and a healthy suspension of disbelief is needed to watch this kind of film. I came in expecting a train-wreck and walked out pleasantly surprised. Critics were WAAAAAAY to hard on it. I think Snyder captured the necessary essence of the comics and I would LOVE to see his official version of this film. I think the lighthearted stuff was the worst part of this movie. The film already had a pretty decent tonal balance in place, so I didn't see where the added jokes brought any real value to the story telling experience. A definite thumbs up for me. I think Snyder redeemed himself and the movie is getting a really bad rap that is not deserved.

I voted "Very Good." I can't pinpoint what kept me from saying "Excellent," but it doesn't matter. I totally loved it from start to finish. It wasn't quite a 9 or 10 which I guess is excellent but it was for sure in the mid to high 8s.

Not really feeling Screen Rant's anti-JL Batman article here.

https://screenrant.com/justice-league-batman-gun-dumb-plan-final-battle/

Screen Rant claim:

Batman was stupid to go alone and attract Parademons.

I'm 100% certain Batman intended to die in the Snyder cut. He was sacrificing himself, and the scene does make more sense in that context. The reshoots changed the context to make Batman a heroic loner, but even then, the scene still works. We can assume Batman thinks he can take on an alien army single handedly, and simply realizes he bit off more than he could chew mid battle. He discovers he's not invincible and working in a team isn't so bad. Batman is an egotistical, pig headed guy at times. This remains in line with his personality, and makes him human at the same time.

Screen Rant claim:

Batman shouldn't use guns because it dumbs him down.

I say that's nonsense. A human being picking off aliens with long range weapons is logical. Who wants to engage in combat if you don't have to? The last time Batman fought a Parademon it was a struggle and he had to call in the Knightcrawler. The scenario was war, not sleuthing.

Batman adapts to situations. He manages to survive because he keeps the tricks flowing. His car rolls off a cliff, but he ejects himself from the wreck, glides away and re-enters the fight. I'm positive the car roll was Batman's suicide attempt in the Snyder cut before a League member saved him, with the reshoots changing the context. That does make more sense in my opinion, but the final product still manages to work.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Feb  2018, 01:03
Screen Rant claim:

Batman shouldn't use guns because it dumbs him down.

I wonder if this author applied this criticism against other Batman movies in the past for doing the exact same thing? Probably not.  ::)

Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 15 Feb  2018, 22:48
I voted "Very Good." I can't pinpoint what kept me from saying "Excellent," but it doesn't matter. I totally loved it from start to finish. It wasn't quite a 9 or 10 which I guess is excellent but it was for sure in the mid to high 8s.

That's about where I put it. It doesn't stand out in any way to merit a 9 or 10 rating but it certainly does enough right to keep us entertained. Maybe the extended cut will break enough ground for a better rating? I guess we'll see.

Quote from: riddler on Sat, 17 Feb  2018, 18:59
Maybe the extended cut will break enough ground for a better rating? I guess we'll see.

Don't expect an extended cut. WB want Snyder dead and buried.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 20 Feb  2018, 03:46

Quote from: riddler on Sat, 17 Feb  2018, 18:59
Maybe the extended cut will break enough ground for a better rating? I guess we'll see.

Don't expect an extended cut. WB want Snyder dead and buried.

If there's any truth to the story that Snyder was fired, I don't know if there would be any legal ramifications if they reversed position and released everything he shot. Because I'm sure in firing him, he lost income in some aspect of that deal. So releasing his vision for which the studio fired him might be a sticky situation. That might be why there are hardly any deleted scenes. I could see that being a significant issue in court. At the very least it might be a face saving gesture for the studio, because in the end it would show they have no idea what they're doing. Like most things, they would be the last to figure that out.

Quote from: Wayne49 on Wed, 21 Feb  2018, 12:46
If there's any truth to the story that Snyder was fired, I don't know if there would be any legal ramifications if they reversed position and released everything he shot. Because I'm sure in firing him, he lost income in some aspect of that deal. So releasing his vision for which the studio fired him might be a sticky situation. That might be why there are hardly any deleted scenes. I could see that being a significant issue in court. At the very least it might be a face saving gesture for the studio, because in the end it would show they have no idea what they're doing. Like most things, they would be the last to figure that out.

This situation is definitely a mess. At the same time, if Snyder were to come out and disown JL and confirm he had been undermined by the studio, it makes it even more illogical that he was credited for directing the film, if say, half it of wasn't what he had envisioned. I said it elsewhere, and I'll say it again, it's been a PR disaster for everybody involved.

With that being said, other than the many clips we saw in the trailers that got reshot or never made it to the final theatrical cut, there are only two deleted scenes that have been released online, both of which feature Superman. The video below contains one scene where he returns to Fortress of Solitude to get his costume back, and the other scene shows him meeting Alfred for the first time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiLwuZQN3Vo

There are also supposed quotes by the actor who played Steppenwolf that the final product wasn't the same movie he worked on, and hopes the director's cut gets released, but I don't trust the source from where this news came from.

I'm still convinced a Snyder cut does exist, but as you say, the possible legal ramifications could prove troublesome.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Feb  2018, 01:03
I'm 100% certain Batman intended to die in the Snyder cut.

Normally I hate to engage in speculation, but I guess it's hardly speculating when it comes straight from the horse's mouth. I just saw this screenshot on Vero of Snyder replying back to a fan about those crosses in the background when Superman died in BvS:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYh6sw3VMAASoCB.jpg:large)

Source: https://twitter.com/claytalian/status/975164235289366528

If we're assuming correctly to what Snyder was implying, maybe Affleck's Batman signing off in a heroic death - for good - was going to be the original plan all along. No coming back to life like Superman. No bullsh*t auto-pilot cop-out like in Rises. A heroic death that would stay permanent for once, and given Affleck's age, you can't help but suspect there's some truth to that.

If this is true, if Snyder really intended to kill off Batman in his second movie appearance in this continuity (Suicide Squad was a cameo), then Justice League: The Movie was doomed from the start, and the mediocre product released in theaters was the least worst outcome.

(The tragedy is I really loved Affleck's Batman/ Wayne and Jeremy Irons had the potential to be the best Alfred. If they made a decent movie with them).

Quote from: Azrael on Mon, 19 Mar  2018, 20:31If this is true, if Snyder really intended to kill off Batman in his second movie appearance in this continuity (Suicide Squad was a cameo), then Justice League: The Movie was doomed from the start, and the mediocre product released in theaters was the least worst outcome.

Not sure I agree with that. Right now the status of Batman in live action cinema seems completely up in the air. Affleck's Batman dying would simplify that.

Then again, I have my doubts WB would've allowed Snyder to kill Batman off. Those comments from Snyder could mean a lot of things. I can't picture him being given permission to kill the character off. All due respect to everybody involved with these movies but if WB wasn't willing to allow Nolan to kill his version of Batman off (and they weren't), why would they allow Snyder to do basically the same thing?

The way things are right now, maybe the best move would be to scrap the DCEU and either start over or else just let Marvel run the table. Seems like that's what everybody wants. "The fans" don't deserve more movies in my opinion.

Since I'm here, let me add I really don't understand the fixation people have on the black suit. The way people have talked about it, you'd almost think Superman didn't wear a black suit in MOS or something.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 19 Mar  2018, 12:34
If we're assuming correctly to what Snyder was implying, maybe Affleck's Batman signing off in a heroic death - for good - was going to be the original plan all along. No coming back to life like Superman. No bullsh*t auto-pilot cop-out like in Rises. A heroic death that would stay permanent for once, and given Affleck's age, you can't help but suspect there's some truth to that.

Don't be foolish. My post said I believe Batman INTENDED to die in the Snyder cut, not that he would. It would've been about atoning for his perceived sins during BvS. The falling Batmobile cannon shell in slow motion during the red sky finale gives it away. We see this same visual signifier during the Wayne murders and Superman's funeral.

I'm guessing Bats wanted to attract the Parademon swarms so he could be granted a good death, perhaps evoking the beginning of TDK Returns where he pushes his car to breaking point, only to eject seconds before immolation. I'd say in the film, Aquaman or some other member would've rescued him before this took place. The studio would've freaked and thus the reshoots were ordered to change the context of certain things...which is a real shame because all the deeper meaning and character growth is now glossed over and simplified. But it is what it is.

As for the DCEU as a whole, I'd be lying if I said my enthusiasm hadn't taken a hit. I was happy as a clam during the MoS and BvS days, even though the critics and media were on the warpath. JL is still an enjoyable film for all its issues, but what did it really achieve? It pleased some people but frustrated others. It certainly didn't bank as much cash as it should have.

I'm positive Snyder was going to lighten the mood somewhat (Barry drawing on that guy's face was his scene) but the company version of JL was definitely a lurch in direction to the MCU, which doesn't appeal to me that much.

Four of the hollowest words I've ever seen plastered anywhere is JL's 'Directed by Zack Snyder' credit. It seems The Big Z stuck to his guns throughout the filmmaking process, and the studio cautiously went along with it. But as things progressed they needed any excuse to shaft the guy, and it just so happened to be his daughter's death.

The spark is still alive with my fandom, but it's not with the DCEU as much. It's more with the usual suspects (B66, B89, etc) right now. The Telltale series is also a huge factor in keeping me engaged, and of course the comics. Problem is I don't have as much time to enjoy this stuff as I used to. But fandom as a concept isn't going anywhere with me. It never truly dies, it just remains dormant.

I have to really *feel* something to be excited and engaged. I felt that with Snyder, and that whole situation poured cold water on my DCEU vibe, mixed in with Batfleck's future. It's still okay....but just not what I'd like it to be. I just wish they allowed Snyder's film to be made before moving on with their new direction.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 20 Mar  2018, 10:03

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 19 Mar  2018, 12:34
If we're assuming correctly to what Snyder was implying, maybe Affleck's Batman signing off in a heroic death - for good - was going to be the original plan all along. No coming back to life like Superman. No bullsh*t auto-pilot cop-out like in Rises. A heroic death that would stay permanent for once, and given Affleck's age, you can't help but suspect there's some truth to that.

Don't be foolish. My post said I believe Batman INTENDED to die in the Snyder cut, not that he would.

Take it easy, amico mio. I know you didn't think he meant to die, I only wanted to share that screenshot over what Snyder had in mind for Justice League 2, and it triggered a thought. That's all.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 20 Mar  2018, 10:03
Don't be foolish. My post said I believe Batman INTENDED to die in the Snyder cut, not that he would.

Given the quality of Justice League, it's only natural to believe and assume the worst.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 20 Mar  2018, 10:03

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 19 Mar  2018, 12:34
If we're assuming correctly to what Snyder was implying, maybe Affleck's Batman signing off in a heroic death - for good - was going to be the original plan all along. No coming back to life like Superman. No bullsh*t auto-pilot cop-out like in Rises. A heroic death that would stay permanent for once, and given Affleck's age, you can't help but suspect there's some truth to that.

Don't be foolish. My post said I believe Batman INTENDED to die in the Snyder cut, not that he would. It would've been about atoning for his perceived sins during BvS. The falling Batmobile cannon shell in slow motion during the red sky finale gives it away. We see this same visual signifier during the Wayne murders and Superman's funeral.

I'm guessing Bats wanted to attract the Parademon swarms so he could be granted a good death, perhaps evoking the beginning of TDK Returns where he pushes his car to breaking point, only to eject seconds before immolation. I'd say in the film, Aquaman or some other member would've rescued him before this took place. The studio would've freaked and thus the reshoots were ordered to change the context of certain things...which is a real shame because all the deeper meaning and character growth is now glossed over and simplified. But it is what it is.

As for the DCEU as a whole, I'd be lying if I said my enthusiasm hadn't taken a hit. I was happy as a clam during the MoS and BvS days, even though the critics and media were on the warpath. JL is still an enjoyable film for all its issues, but what did it really achieve? It pleased some people but frustrated others. It certainly didn't bank as much cash as it should have.

I'm positive Snyder was going to lighten the mood somewhat (Barry drawing on that guy's face was his scene) but the company version of JL was definitely a lurch in direction to the MCU, which doesn't appeal to me that much.

Four of the hollowest words I've ever seen plastered anywhere is JL's 'Directed by Zack Snyder' credit. It seems The Big Z stuck to his guns throughout the filmmaking process, and the studio cautiously went along with it. But as things progressed they needed any excuse to shaft the guy, and it just so happened to be his daughter's death.

The spark is still alive with my fandom, but it's not with the DCEU as much. It's more with the usual suspects (B66, B89, etc) right now. The Telltale series is also a huge factor in keeping me engaged, and of course the comics. Problem is I don't have as much time to enjoy this stuff as I used to. But fandom as a concept isn't going anywhere with me. It never truly dies, it just remains dormant.

I have to really *feel* something to be excited and engaged. I felt that with Snyder, and that whole situation poured cold water on my DCEU vibe, mixed in with Batfleck's future. It's still okay....but just not what I'd like it to be. I just wish they allowed Snyder's film to be made before moving on with their new direction.

This is a good point and something I'd forgotten about. I got the idea that Batman had secretly assigned himself a suicide mission, partly because it needed to be done and partly because he probably would regard it as penance. And you're right, it probably would've been more apparent in Snyder's cut. But the way things are now with Josstice League, it's watered down.

If it came out tomorrow that Snyder tried having his name taken off the movie... yeah, I'd understand.

I like this detail.

(https://i.redd.it/2vb3rjc1yvn01.jpg)

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 20 Mar  2018, 10:03As for the DCEU as a whole, I’d be lying if I said my enthusiasm hadn’t taken a hit. I was happy as a clam during the MoS and BvS days, even though the critics and media were on the warpath. JL is still an enjoyable film for all its issues, but what did it really achieve? It pleased some people but frustrated others. It certainly didn’t bank as much cash as it should have.

That's the thing about this movie. I think not everyone was ever gonna be happy. Either way this is the ultimate conclusion of what the other movies were building towards, whether story wise or business wise. It is just bland though. I'm meh on it personally. It's a shame either way. I never wanted Whedon involved. I liked Avengers, but it was mainly a popcorn movie and not what I wanted for the movie. At the time I think I expected Buffy s3 and instead got Buffy s4. AOU was messy too for me. I feel like JL is Buffy s1, That's not a compliment.

I honestly am intrigued to see how what Snyder wanted would've played out. It sounds like it was gonna be like a clashing of each of the character's worlds, which is what I wanted for Avengers. Though I agree with the studio in that it shouldn't be 3 hours. Same with BvS, I've said before that a 3 hour superhero movie shouldn't be necessary. Though I there was always going to be problems, like making the movie a 2 parter and over-crowding a movie with things, having Steppenwolf being used to set-up Darkseid instead of just having the villain be Darkseid, trying to pay off things that weren't setup well or developed well like certain characters and the world in regards to Superman.

QuoteI’m positive Snyder was going to lighten the mood somewhat (Barry drawing on that guy’s face was his scene) but the company version of JL was definitely a lurch in direction to the MCU, which doesn’t appeal to me that much.

See, I thought that was Joss Whedon's. It felt awkward. I thought they digitally added him doing that in post, which now makes me wonder what the point of that scene would've been if not for that, so I guess that makes sense that it was his. I'm inclined to think Snyder likely learned his lesson and would've changed up the tone. The issue is would that have changed the issues with the other movies and I don't think so, which would've made the payoff nice, but ultimately not earned.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue, 19 Dec  2017, 07:33

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 18 Dec  2017, 11:09
If anybody can prove me wrong, please tell me.

What you're not really understanding, is the new director credit only applies to a certain percentage of re-shoots. What happened with JL, is Whedon used a lot of existing footage, but rearranged it to a new script. One of the first scenes in the original script, was Bruce trying to get Arthur/Aquaman. It's why there was such a weird edit with his beard. In the version we got, Batman/Bruce was clean shaven, and then out of nowhere, he has a full beard, and then the reshoots make a point of Bruce saying he has to shave again. It was all rearranged in a completely different order.

So Whendon just used a bunch of preexisting footage, and then shot a few new scenes, to then come up with a different version of what was originally supposed to be. You basically get a completely different movie altogether, with only having to re-shoot a certain percentage of the film.

Despite knowing a lot of footage in the trailers were deleted from the final theatrical cut, I have to admit, I couldn't believe the film had been drastically changed from what Snyder had intended. Not so much the rearrangement of scenes, but more so the large portions of the plot. Call me being in a state of denial, and I wouldn't hold it against you. But at the time, I didn't want to believe that WB had misled everybody over the circumstances in Snyder's departure and Whedon getting involved.

When the news broke out he was leaving, The Hollywood Reporter specifically stated Snyder decided to bring Whedon on board to finish the film. Additionally, the WB president was quoted saying "The directing is minimal and it has to adhere to the style and tone and the template that Zack set. We're not introducing any new characters. It's the same characters in some new scenes. He's handing the baton to Joss, but the course has really been set by Zack. I still believe that despite this tragedy, we'll still end up with a great movie."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/zack-snyder-steps-down-justice-league-deal-family-tragedy-1006455

Of course, everything we were told was a lie, judging by what Jay Oliva has revealed over the last six months or so on Twitter, and Snyder himself giving clues on Vero. The final straw for me was when Snyder said he didn't know anything about that Russian family in the film, which means it was a new subplot created by Whedon.

(https://i.redd.it/dll1rj8h2uz01.png)

This entire ordeal has been a massive PR disaster. I am at odds over what to make of this bullsh*t. It's bad enough we STILL don't know for sure if Affleck and Cavill are leaving, but this is a new level of incompetence. You don't mislead your audience into believing a narrative.

Maybe one can assume WB didn't want to confirm they had fired Snyder because it would look cruel following his daughter's death, but if you ask me, that would assume they have a moral compass. Which I doubt they do.

Judging by what Snyder said about not wanting narratives spin out of control in that THR interview discussing his daughter, maybe he compromised by signing a non-disclosure agreement with WB to protect his reputation, as well as doing for what he thought would be best for the film.

I have no idea. All I know is I personally find WB's handling over this to be very unethical and irresponsible. I'd be really surprised if I pay to see any of their movies ever again.

Fish is right. People understand when movie studios lie to save face. It's not okay but it's understandable. WB lied through their teeth about how successful they thought Superman Returns was. But they were saving face so... whatever. It isn't a big deal.

It's also different if they lie to protect against spoilers, even honest ones. Miranda Tate being an original character rather than Talia in disguise was a lie that WB told because they honestly (so to speak) had no choice. Every dummy in the world could guess the truth but they had to keep up appearances. So I get that. They were just trying to control the intel about the movie, that's all.

But outright lying about what Whedon wouldn't be doing to Snyder's film is over the line. They looked us in the eye and told us a bald faced lie. The true story was they wanted Whedon to "save" the movie and I understand why they wouldn't want to say so out lout. But there were other ways of spinning this story to avoid lying to us.

This is a major black eye for WB in my opinion.

It sure is.

WB lied about everything. They spoke about respecting Snyder but all of their conduct shows the studio dancing on his grave and ripping his original vision to shreds. The finished product is not a Zack Snyder film, plain and simple.

This saga has been a real kick in the guts to the point I nearly shunned BvS. But at least we have BvS. Sure...it hurts that we didn't get a proper conclusion to that arc, but it's still a damn good movie. Right alongside the Burton films for me. Even if Affleck is done (and sadly I think he is), his appearance in BvS is all I need for him to be a great. Branding the criminal, attending the party, the training scene, fighting Superman, the warehouse.....just awesome.


(https://i.redd.it/ybnp590pier11.jpg)

We're missing the third frame. Justice League is unfinished business. Zack Snyder's interrupted revolution.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 11 Oct  2018, 09:48(https://i.redd.it/ybnp590pier11.jpg)

We're missing the third frame. Justice League is unfinished business. Zack Snyder's interrupted revolution.

The imagery there begs for interpretation. MOS- Revelation. BVS- Confrontation. JL- Reunion? Resurrection? Rapprochement? It makes sense that Snyder would have revisited that image in order to resolve the theme.

Such a waste.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 13 Oct  2018, 04:14
The imagery there begs for interpretation. MOS- Revelation. BVS- Confrontation. JL- Reunion? Resurrection? Rapprochement? It makes sense that Snyder would have revisited that image in order to resolve the theme.

Such a waste.

If that shot were to recur in the what was intended for JL, my guess would've been a crowd of people cheering showing their love and appreciation for Superman for everything he did for humanity. It would've a fitting conclusion towards acceptance, following the initial skepticism in MOS and division towards him in BvS; and his coming back to life would've made such a moment even more emotional.

Instead, we get nothing. That remains my biggest criticism of the theatrical cut of JL. We get no reaction or insight from the world, not even Metropolis, towards his rebirth. It's hollow.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 13 Oct  2018, 04:14
Such a waste.

Indeed. I really do hope this original cut does see the light of day.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 13 Oct  2018, 04:14
The imagery there begs for interpretation. MOS- Revelation. BVS- Confrontation. JL- Reunion? Resurrection? Rapprochement? It makes sense that Snyder would have revisited that image in order to resolve the theme.

Such a waste.

I'm guessing the shot would've been immediately after his resurrection. As soon as the Flash touches the box, Superman flies up over the city before landing at the memorial. Snyder did shoot content from this sequence, and Whedon did too. Perhaps we would've had the League looking up at him. Who knows.