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Elfman says he's incorporating elements of John Williams' Superman score into the Justice League soundtrack. It sounds like there might be references to earlier Batman scores as well.

QuoteYou've just been in London recording the score for Justice League. It's been 28 years since you scored Batman. What was it like going back into the DC universe?

It was great. It was like I never left because I'm using the same thematic material that I used back then. It never actually went away [Laughs.] It just was great fun.

There are a few little fan moments. I instated a moment of the Wonder Woman theme that Hans Zimmer did for Batman Vs. Superman, but I also had two minutes where I had the pleasure of saying, "Let's do John Williams' Superman." and that for me was heaven, because now I have a melody to twist, and I'm using it in an actually very dark way, in a dark moment. It's the kind of thing that some fans will notice. Some won't. It's a moment where we're really not sure whose side he's on.

The people at DC are starting to understand we've got these iconic bits from our past and that's part of us, that's part of our heritage -- we shouldn't run away from that. Contemporary thinking is, every time they reboot something, you have to start completely from scratch -- which, of course, audiences will tell us again and again, is bullsh*t. Because the single-most surviving and loved theme in the world is Star Wars, which they had the good sense to not dump for the reboots. And every time it comes back, the audience goes crazy.

Did you write new themes for such characters as Flash and Aquaman?

I created very simple motifs. There are so many themes, you can't just do a big theme for everything. So i created a motif for Flash, for Aquaman and Cyborg -- but they're very simple things, and [DC] understood. I said, "These things may never be used again, but I'm giving you all the components, should you wish to have things to build on." So they either will or they won't, but that's how I approach a project like this. You have to take the attitude that this is the beginning of a mythology and it all matters, it all comes to fruition, and with any luck they will.

I loved the people I worked with, they were wonderful. The DC guys were great. I kept talking about the DNA of John Williams in this other theme -- using the DNA of Batman in these other variations, which were not the Batman theme -- but it all derives from that... Musical themes are like genes, you carry the DNA along and it creates these subtle connections which are perceived on an unconscious level. It's funny because I'm terrible at puzzles, but I love musical puzzles. It's a different part of my brain.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/7981630/danny-elfman-justice-league-joss-whedon-gus-van-sant-interview

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 30 Sep  2017, 17:51
Elfman says he's incorporating elements of John Williams' Superman score into the Justice League soundtrack. It sounds like there might be references to earlier Batman scores as well.

Danny Elfman does state that there will be a moment where the Batman Theme will be used "Full On."

https://batman-news.com/2017/09/28/danny-elfman-is-bringing-john-williams-classic-superman-theme-to-justice-league/

Why do you love working with him?

It was the same as when I worked with him on Ultron. He appreciates melodies and pieces. He's like, "Oh, you've given it identity here!" There was a moment where the Batmobile shoots out of a thing and he goes, "Go batsh*t crazy here! Batman the sh*t out of it!" When I'm using the Batman theme, I'm using the melodic sense of it, I'm wasn't doing full-on Batman, and there's a moment when he says, "No, right here, Full on!"

I never expected to hear Elfman's theme in a new movie again. So this is kind of welcome.

Or it would be. But the thing is Junkie XL developed a very powerful and Wagneresque hero theme for Batman in BVS and I don't see why that isn't being adhered to. There's no logical reason to change things up like this.

But here we are.

When Elfman says 'Batman theme', are we sure he isn't referring to the Junkie XL version? I'm hoping he means his own 1989 score, but it seems unclear from the quote. I'm assuming the Batfleck theme will be in there anyway, but it'd be cool if Elfman could work in some older Batman music motifs as well.

I'm hoping Elfman is only talking about musical cameos. I guess I'd be okay with that. He's using the DCEU Wonder Woman theme, so it wouldn't make sense to scrap the other themes and go back to the past.

I really hope that by saying "I'm using the melodic sense of it" he refers to a subtle allusion to the 1989 theme, while Joss Whedon by "Go batsh*t crazy here!" asks him to do an obvious nod. At least that's how I read it.

That said, I love Holkenborg's theme so I hope that this theme remains as the main Batman theme of the DCEU.

Years ago, I would've been excited by the idea of hearing Danny Elfman recite the Burton Batman theme again, or hearing Williams Superman theme again. But nowadays I'm more keen to listen to new music for a new era. I suppose there's nothing wrong with a little homage here and there, but then again, the negative is it reinforces some movies can't be made without the "iconic" score.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon,  9 Oct  2017, 10:58Years ago, I would've been excited by the idea of hearing Danny Elfman recite the Burton Batman theme again, or hearing Williams Superman theme again. But nowadays I'm more keen to listen to new music for a new era. I suppose there's nothing wrong with a little homage here and there, but then again, the negative is it reinforces some movies can't be made without the "iconic" score.

It also limits tonal possibilities.

The Williams hero theme for Superman works great in those Reeve movies but it plays like crap set against Fleischer, the George Reeves show, Lois & Clark, Superman- The Animated Series, etc.

Elfman's Batman theme works great with Burton but it just doesn't work with Schumacher, Nolan or, so far, Snyder.

In order to shoehorn those themes into new movies, there are certain directions the tone of the story simply can't go. In the end, it will work to harm the characters rather than benefit.

Mark my words and read them back to me later: Recycling the same music again and again will be the beginning of the end of comic book cinema as we've known it.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon,  9 Oct  2017, 21:12

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon,  9 Oct  2017, 10:58Years ago, I would've been excited by the idea of hearing Danny Elfman recite the Burton Batman theme again, or hearing Williams Superman theme again. But nowadays I'm more keen to listen to new music for a new era. I suppose there's nothing wrong with a little homage here and there, but then again, the negative is it reinforces some movies can't be made without the "iconic" score.

It also limits tonal possibilities.

The Williams hero theme for Superman works great in those Reeve movies but it plays like crap set against Fleischer, the George Reeves show, Lois & Clark, Superman- The Animated Series, etc.

Elfman's Batman theme works great with Burton but it just doesn't work with Schumacher, Nolan or, so far, Snyder.

In order to shoehorn those themes into new movies, there are certain directions the tone of the story simply can't go. In the end, it will work to harm the characters rather than benefit.

Mark my words and read them back to me later: Recycling the same music again and again will be the beginning of the end of comic book cinema as we've known it.

The Elfman theme has proven to me the most popular for the character, it's also used in video games and the animated series. Both Schumacher trailers featured it and there's been some good youtube cuts featuring Elfman's theme with the Nolan films. It'll be unique enough I'm sure as this is a new incarnation of the character.

If the Man of Elves (MOE) gives us musical cameos of his Burtonverse theme and the Williams Superman theme...I'll be okay with that. But only if he keeps the Zimmer Wonder Woman and Superman themes. We need that musical continuity. I'd rather the cord be completely cut so the new era can stand on its own two feet. MOE isn't the composer he used to be and I would've preferred Junkie XL. But this is the situation we're in.

Quote from: riddler on Tue, 10 Oct  2017, 00:49

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon,  9 Oct  2017, 21:12

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon,  9 Oct  2017, 10:58Years ago, I would've been excited by the idea of hearing Danny Elfman recite the Burton Batman theme again, or hearing Williams Superman theme again. But nowadays I'm more keen to listen to new music for a new era. I suppose there's nothing wrong with a little homage here and there, but then again, the negative is it reinforces some movies can't be made without the "iconic" score.

It also limits tonal possibilities.

The Williams hero theme for Superman works great in those Reeve movies but it plays like crap set against Fleischer, the George Reeves show, Lois & Clark, Superman- The Animated Series, etc.

Elfman's Batman theme works great with Burton but it just doesn't work with Schumacher, Nolan or, so far, Snyder.

In order to shoehorn those themes into new movies, there are certain directions the tone of the story simply can't go. In the end, it will work to harm the characters rather than benefit.

Mark my words and read them back to me later: Recycling the same music again and again will be the beginning of the end of comic book cinema as we've known it.

The Elfman theme has proven to me the most popular for the character, it's also used in video games and the animated series. Both Schumacher trailers featured it and there's been some good youtube cuts featuring Elfman's theme with the Nolan films. It'll be unique enough I'm sure as this is a new incarnation of the character.

Elfman's theme may work in some scenes in various media, but as I said before, I'm ready to let it be bygones. It should be noted that although Elfman's theme was used a little bit in BTAS, Shirley Walker was able to create a new distinctive theme out of it.

Something that's annoying me about film nowadays is it appears to rely too much on nostalgia as a gimmick. Specifically, calling back on music to evoke a certain era. Sometimes it can work if it's done to evoke some sort of theme. For example, GOTG1 did very well as it ties to Star-Lord's childhood when he's given the Walkman by his dying mother (if I recall) before being abducted. The soundtrack sets the mood, both with the tone of the film and the music Star-Lord has grown up listening to and how it shaped his personality. So nostalgia works there.

In contrast, Superman Returns just uses the John Williams score to ape Superman 78, scene-by-scene, but doesn't do anything new. It becomes a hindrance becomes all it makes SR do is ask people to remember the time when Christopher Reeve's Superman said this or did that, instead of becoming its own entity. And yes, I'm well aware of the common complaints about SR, but I wanted to add that analysis of mine to argue why nostalgia shouldn't be relied on for the sake of it. That's why I share TDK's opinion that there needs to be musical continuity to what Hans Zimmer and Junkie XL had established in MOS, BvS and WW.

I get what you're saying LF and not just from a musical standpoint. Whether we're talking a sequel, reboot, remake, or cross over, every movie should be made to stand out on it's own rather than serve as a 'remember when'. Definitely Superman Returns tries too hard to be nostalgic towards the Donner films and as a result, fails to stand out as it's own entity. Most people go to the movies hoping to see something they hadn't seen before rather than see the same things they'd see before.

I think that with Joss Whedon seemingly being so respectful towards Snyders work and not blowing it up and starting from scratch that Elfman will show a similar courtesy to Zimmer.

Quote from: riddler on Tue, 10 Oct  2017, 14:04
I think that with Joss Whedon seemingly being so respectful towards Snyders work and not blowing it up and starting from scratch that Elfman will show a similar courtesy to Zimmer.

If MOE scraps the Zimmer themes and holds out hope the themes he established for Flash and Aquaman remain in the future...he's a hypocrite. If MOE keeps the Zimmer Superman and WW themes, but scraps the BvS Batman theme...that's a confused mess. MOE needs to respect the integrity of the DCEU's sound that has already been established. Recycling themes from 20 plus years ago only serves to highlight he's yesterday's man. He cites Star Wars as a reason to keep old themes....but MOE ignores the fact Star Wars has never had a reboot. We don't want a mix and match MCU music situation.

Two of Danny Elfman's score cues for Justice League have been released.  I am super excited to hear more of what Danny has planned.  Also, there might be spoilers to a trained ear for the cue "Friends and Foes."  So if you don't want to be spoiled you have been warned. 

"Hero's Theme"

https://youtu.be/ojyuFzWA0v4


"Friends and Foes"

https://youtu.be/UySQTZ_EfmI

I've seen some pretty brutal reactions to these two samples. To be completely honest, when I first listened to them I was a little underwhelmed. Zimmer/Junkie XL Content like 'Beautiful Lie', 'Their War Here' and 'New Rules' hit me for six with their power and emotion. But I didn't rush to judgement. Right now, I don't have a big problem with the musical direction of JL....which by all accounts was meant to be a lighter experience.

The John Williams Superman theme cameos are there...but they're not as obvious as I thought they'd be. We have a bit of choir, ala Batman Returns, and I could sense some Spider-Man influences as well. So this is most definitely a Danny Elfman score. My only hope is that we get to hear the Zimmer Superman theme at least once. I think that's really important to have that consistency across the DCEU.

I don't know if it's me, the first sample (Hero's Theme) reminded me of Jerry Goldsmith's The Shadow.

I loved the BvS score. Much of it almost felt like music intended as a standalone listening experience (tracks like "Beautiful Lie", "Red Capes", "She With You", "Men are Still Good", they were just great). Other than the famous cameo, track 16 from the samples above sounds like the generic action/adventure music you don't even notice while watching the film, and forget about when it's over. Yet, it's only two tracks and I hope the true highlights aren't released yet.

I like everything I've heard, so far. I have no complaints. And while movie scores can stand on their own, it's more important to see how they're incorporated within the movie itself. So I'm excited to hear more, and see how it works within the movie itself.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue, 31 Oct  2017, 15:06
And while movie scores can stand on their own, it's more important to see how they're incorporated within the movie itself.

That's true and fair. I've listened to certain tracks before seeing other films and didn't think much of them. But in the film they come alive. All in all, I'm eager to see JL. Maybe not as much as BvS...but the hype is pretty close. I feel like it's going to be solid.

Quote from: Azrael on Tue, 31 Oct  2017, 12:47
I don't know if it's me, the first sample (Hero's Theme) reminded me of Jerry Goldsmith's The Shadow.

I hear that, as well.

I like what I hear. It's not Elfman's best work, but it has his signature, particularly in "Friends and Foes." I am hoping this isn't the apex of the score's material nor a decent sampling of all the score has to offer. If so, I will definitely find myself underwhelmed. However, I have hope that this is just the tip of the iceberg. When it comes to scores, there are two things I desire: that the composer is allowed to create a score that comes to life and secondly, that the filmmakers give the score room to breathe. For example, I really love that moment in BvS when Lois is riding the helicopter and Lex's theme is taking hold. At last, it took hold of me.

About the "nostalgic" themes, I believe the classic themes will only be minor cameos or hints really, not full-on reprisals. That may very well be all we hear of John Williams' theme. The gist I got from the interview was that it was only for a moment. I could be wrong. I'm not sure about Batman's theme yet. I am very curious to hear what he does with the character this time around. Also, for Age of Ultron, Elfman did use Alan Silvestri's material, so I am hoping he does something with the previous DCEU themes. However, I'm okay if he created his own material instead, as long as its good. Change is good, if it's good. Hopefully, not a Basil Poledouris to Leonard Rosenman situation....

I've read many comments concerning the music for Justice League and I just wanted to add my feelings to the mix.  Firstly, I'm a huge film score fan and collector, as well as a musician and composer.  I have never been a fan of Hans Zimmer and his many copycats, I find his music to be overrated and his style to be very bland and generic.  In truth, I'm very happy that Danny was able to return to the DC family.  To me he is the rightful King of Superhero scoring.  I do not wish to cause any offense to those that love and appreciate the music that Hans Zimmer has done for the Superhero genre whether it be Chris Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy, Man Of Steel, or his involvement with BVS.  In my own opinion his music was never that good to begin with and it's sad that the music talents of James Newton Howard who worked with Zimmer in The Dark Knight Trilogy was completely overlooked.  James is 10 times a better film score composer than Hans.  Danny on the other hand is a Film Score Legend.  He's right up there with John Williams and I'll even go as far as saying he's up there with Bernard Herrmann too.  I personally do not want to hear anything reminiscent of Zimmer and Junkie XL or their styles.  I know that Elfman is going to keep the Wonder Woman theme but honestly I wish he would have created a new one for her too.  when it comes to films in general all I want is for the music to be great and I'm sure Danny is already delivering that.

Well, Elfman came out today, and said he'll be going back to his B89 theme for Batman. I know some people are pissed about it over at other forums, but I have no problems with it. I don't think Junkie XL's theme would make much sense in JL, seeing as how Batman is supposed to be more optimistic.

I have a love/hate relationship with Zimmer's music. I love a lot of his 90s stuff. The Lion King is pretty powerful and I really get into his scores for Backdraft and Crimson Tide, especially the latter. His action stuff, for which he received most of his attention, I can take or leave. His music can feel very powerful or it can feel very generic. Plus, I am very burned out on that kind of score, the sonic wallpaper that doesn't feel inspired by or even connected to the film they are presumably written for.

When it comes to his work for Nolan's Batman, I really feel it's overrated. It's a letdown. There are parts I like and even listen to on occasion. But when I listen to the track "Finders Keepers," which wasn't included on the commercial release, it builds and builds and builds only to deflate when it needs to hit powerful notes. Having said that, Man of Steel did. So it goes either way for me.

Quote from: Travesty on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 00:10Well, Elfman came out today, and said he'll be going back to his B89 theme for Batman. I know some people are pissed about it over at other forums, but I have no problems with it. I don't think Junkie XL's theme would make much sense in JL, seeing as how Batman is supposed to be more optimistic.

I just... no. Junkie XL developed a very clever and very dark theme for Batman. There's no reason whatsoever to abandon it. By all means, let Elfman call back to his old theme in JL's score. But Junkie's theme needs to stick around because the character has progressed since 1989. Elfman tossing out Junkie's work comes off as arrogance. It's just not necessary.

Yes yes yes, I realize I'm on a very pro-Burton forum here. But I think you guys understand where I'm coming from.

It doesn't make sense to keep Junkie's theme, as Batman in BvS was a different kind of Batman than what we'll be getting in JL. He's not pissed off going after Superman, he's learned from his mistakes, and has to move on. I think it worked in BvS, but again, I don't think it makes sense to have it in JL. It was a pretty dark theme, and we're first introduced to it when Bruce is looking up in the sky, and sees Superman, and blames him for killing everybody in the building. The second that girl was orphaned, he blames Superman, and you see it on Bruce's face, and you hear it in the theme. And again, I think it works great in BvS. I just don't see any need for it in JL.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 01:30
Elfman tossing out Junkie's work comes off as arrogance. It's just not necessary.

Danny comes off as egotistical and I daresay a tad unhinged. Watch for yourself. Arrogance is putting it mildly. He says Batman has only ever had one theme and it's his. He's dismissing everything else to prop up himself. I don't want to bash the guy too much considering his genius work on B89 and BR....but I have to admit I'm off side with his attitude. He cites Star Wars as a reason to keep using the same title theme. He either doesn't understand what reboots are all about, or he simply doesn't care. Junkie's theme was brilliant and if anyone thinks it couldn't be lightened up (while retaining the core DNA) they're foolish. This is the same guy who hopes his Aquaman, Cyborg and Flash themes are retained by future composers. But he has no problem dismissing past Batman composers - especially Junkie XL whose theme he scrapped. If he gives us a full throated version of the John Williams Superman theme in JL, that's just fan service that confuses the DCEU brand.

I'm afraid I have to agree with colors and TDK. Oh well, we'll just have to see how it sounds in the film.

Quote from: Travesty on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 01:54
It doesn't make sense to keep Junkie's theme, as Batman in BvS was a different kind of Batman than what we'll be getting in JL. He's not pissed off going after Superman, he's learned from his mistakes, and has to move on. I think it worked in BvS, but again, I don't think it makes sense to have it in JL. It was a pretty dark theme, and we're first introduced to it when Bruce is looking up in the sky, and sees Superman, and blames him for killing everybody in the building. The second that girl was orphaned, he blames Superman, and you see it on Bruce's face, and you hear it in the theme. And again, I think it works great in BvS. I just don't see any need for it in JL.

I understand what you're saying Travesty, but I don't see how there can't be a rendition of the BvS theme that sounds more "upbeat", or a slight variant of it i.e. BTAS deriving from Elfman's own theme. The thing I don't like the most is they're trying to use nostalgia to hook people's attention to the new relase. It's a gimmick Hollywood is overusing nowadays, and frankly, I'm tired of it.

Quote from: GoNerdYourself on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 00:27
I have a love/hate relationship with Zimmer's music. I love a lot of his 90s stuff. The Lion King is pretty powerful and I really get into his scores for Backdraft and Crimson Tide, especially the latter. His action stuff, for which he received most of his attention, I can take or leave. His music can feel very powerful or it can feel very generic. Plus, I am very burned out on that kind of score, the sonic wallpaper that doesn't feel inspired by or even connected to the film they are presumably written for.

When it comes to his work for Nolan's Batman, I really feel it's overrated. It's a letdown. There are parts I like and even listen to on occasion. But when I listen to the track "Finders Keepers," which wasn't included on the commercial release, it builds and builds and builds only to deflate when it needs to hit powerful notes. Having said that, Man of Steel did. So it goes either way for me.

The Lion King was my first exposure to Zimmer and agree than his name used to be synonymous with powerful scores, in diverse genres too, like As Good As It Gets, or Hannibal. I think it was sometime in the late 00s (after TDK) when this sound became a tiresome trend.

---

I don't get the usage of the word "upbeat" in connection with Batman. He may have moved on from the mania mode from BvS and try to be more of a hero, but he's still Batman. Elfman's theme is in no way upbeat or happy music, it's more like an anthemic dirge.

I would embrace Elfman's theme becoming the overall theme for the Batman brand, but Holkenborg's is excellent and I agree that the DCEU film franchise should have musical consistency.

Quote from: Azrael on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 12:07
I don't get the usage of the word "upbeat" in connection with Batman. He may have moved on from the mania mode from BvS and try to be more of a hero, but he's still Batman. Elfman's theme is in no way upbeat or happy music, it's more like an anthemic dirge.

I wouldn't necessarily make the connection either. Call it a poor choice of words, but I was trying to make the point that the Junkie XL theme could've been reused, but played a little differently to distinguish the mood between Batman's arc in BvS up to the rest of the DCEU.

Quote
I would embrace Elfman's theme becoming the overall theme for the Batman brand, but Holkenborg's is excellent and I agree that the DCEU film franchise should have musical consistency.

That's the thing though, I got the impression that Elfman's theme was always the iconic theme for Batman. Even media like the Lego Batman games used his score for the soundtrack. And of course, the score paved the way for BTAS, until Shirley Walker was able to create her own theme out of it.

Quote from: Azrael on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 12:07
I  would embrace Elfman's theme becoming the overall theme for the Batman brand, but Holkenborg's is excellent and I agree that the DCEU film franchise should have musical consistency.

Put it this way. Imagine if Elfman did the score for B89, and then Nelson Riddle came on board for Batman Returns and replaced Elfman's theme with the B66 version. Well, that wouldn't be all right mama. Don't interpret this as me hating on Elfman's work with Burton, because you all know I love it. I just hate the message this sends.

Hans Zimmer made a brand new theme for Superman, and it was fantastic. People were saying how John Williams couldn't be beaten, but Hans still went about his business. And now Elfman basically is saying don't even bother making something new, because the old themes can't be beaten. I find that backward, illogical....and kinda sad. Honestly, I think Zimmer is the better composer THESE DAYS in comparison to Elfman. John Williams' Superman Theme has nothing to do with Henry Cavill. Danny Elfman's Batman Theme doesn't have anything to do with Ben Affleck. Let the eras stand alone. Cherish the past but move on.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 09:54
If he gives us a full throated version of the John Williams Superman theme in JL, that's just fan service that confuses the DCEU brand.

That's the thing that so many people are missing. He's not using a "full throated" version of William's score. He incorporated it into his score. You can hear what he's using in Friends and Foe at the 2:18 mark. The same will be said about his B89 theme. He's not just dropping a full version of his old theme, he's incorporating it into the new score. And he's still using Zimmer's MOS theme for Superman, as we've been hearing it in the trailers. He's only dropping Junkie's Batman theme, and like I said earlier, it only makes sense...to me, at least.

Quote from: Travesty on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 15:36

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 09:54
If he gives us a full throated version of the John Williams Superman theme in JL, that's just fan service that confuses the DCEU brand.

That's the thing that so many people are missing. He's not using a "full throated" version of William's score. He incorporated it into his score. You can hear what he's using in Friends and Foe at the 2:18 mark. The same will be said about his B89 theme. He's not just dropping a full version of his old theme, he's incorporating it into the new score. And he's still using Zimmer's MOS theme for Superman, as we've been hearing it in the trailers. He's only dropping Junkie's Batman theme, and like I said earlier, it only makes sense...to me, at least.

I'm aware of that. But here's the rub. Elfman wouldn't outright say if he is using the Zimmer Superman Theme. He only committed to using the Wonder Woman Theme. Apparently an early cut featured the full blown Williams theme during Superman's return to battle....which they said could've been an early placeholder piece. But I'm not completely sure at the moment. Other chatter suggests parts of Zimmer's MoS score (the piano notes) are used, ala the final trailer, but not the heroic part people love. It's just a waiting game to see the movie now.

Well, the same can be said about WW. We never got a full blown version of Zimmer's theme that he used in BvS, as Rupert Gregson-Williams only used pieces of it in his score in WW, but it was till there. Same can be said about Elfman, aside from Batman.

And I don't even know why this is such a contentious piece of news? He's still incorporating parts of the themes from other characters, yet, still making his own score. As he or any composer should. This is an ensemble of heroes coming together. When looking at something like The Animated Series, Batman had a theme, and Superman had a theme. Both were distinct and worked for those shows. But when Lolita Ritmanis came in to do the main score/theme for JL, she didn't feel compelled to use the same themes for Batman or Superman. These aren't the solo movies, so it's not nearly as important to have individual themes. The fact that we are getting samples of them incorporated into Elfman's score is a bonus, but not needed for an ensemble team up. If these were the solo movies, maybe I can see the concern, but seeing as this is JL, I just don't get it.

From what I understand, John Williams' theme is just a cameo. I was under the impression it was only going to be used once. However, I was assuming the use of Zimmer's MOS theme in the trailers was taken directly from that score. I need to re-watch that last trailer, I guess.

I think we're losing focus here. Elfman is ejecting Junkie's Batman theme (for reasons which don't reflect well on him at that) and using his. Meanwhile, the other characters' existing themes will be preserved and there will be winks to what's come before. Which is fine but not the point. The point is that Elfman is seriously out of line in doing this.

If Batman is to have one definitive theme (and I would argue he shouldn't because that's the entire point of the character!) then there's no reason to select Elfman's theme over, say, Drake's theme from the TDKR animated movies, Walker's BTAS stuff, Goldenthal's wonderful music, Zimmer's own work from the Nolan trilogy or any number of other possibilities. Seriously, how is Elfman's stuff objectively better than any of those other options?

I can tolerate what Elfman is doing with the other characters. Because whatever. But right now, this very second, my primary investment in the DCEU is Batman. Affleck under the cowl and Junkie's amazing Wagneresque hero theme. So tossing out what Junkie has done is just senseless.

Frankly, I'd probably respect Elfman more if he went the whole nine yards and devised a totally new theme for Batman rather than reintroducing his B89/BR hero theme.

I'm sorry, but Elfman is not out of line here.  He is totally entitled as a composer to keep his own iconic theme.  I think what many people don't realize is that were dealing with Batman.  Not Ben Affleck, Christian Bale, etc etc... It's not about Actors in costume.  It's about BATMAN period. And the best live action musical representation of such a character is Elfman's Iconic Score, end of story.   I seriously can't believe all the complaining I've been hearing regarding this.  We should be celebrating Elfman's return and be greatful to sit in the cinema and hear that theme played in full glory, instead of nitpicking and moaning cause of the continuity with the other films.  In the end all that matters is we are going to be getting a great score and that is all that you need.  So for the love of God Just Be Damned Greatful.    

I'm reserving my opinions on the score (and the movie) until I hear it (and see it). If I like it, I like it. If I don't, I don't.

EDIT: This isn't to trump on anyone's strong thoughts on the subject. I just don't feel I've heard enough of the JL score to form a solid opinion of it yet.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 22:57
He is totally entitled as a composer to keep his own iconic theme.

Sure, but it still doesn't make sense. A lighter version of the DCEU theme or a brand new theme would've been more ideal.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 22:57
I think what many people don't realize is that were dealing with Batman.  Not Ben Affleck, Christian Bale, etc etc...

We are dealing with Ben Affleck's Batman, not Michael Keaton's Batman. I'm not sure you realize that - that's exactly what the beef is. It is about actors because that's how eras are defined.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 22:57
And the best live action musical representation of such a character is Elfman's Iconic Score, end of story.

That's completely subjective. End of story.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 22:57
I seriously can't believe all the complaining I've been hearing regarding this.  We should be celebrating Elfman's return and be greatful to sit in the cinema and hear that theme played in full glory, instead of nitpicking and moaning cause of the continuity with the other films.

If this creates continuity problems I'm going to say so. Pointing out a simple fact does not equal whining.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 22:57
In the end all that matters is we are going to be getting a great score and that is all that you need.  So for the love of God Just Be Damned Greatful.

I don't have a problem with the musical direction of JL in terms of the lighter mood. But I have *always* been strict on musical continuity.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 20:58
Frankly, I'd probably respect Elfman more if he went the whole nine yards and devised a totally new theme for Batman rather than reintroducing his B89/BR hero theme.

Yep.

Quote from: GoNerdYourself on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 20:18
From what I understand, John Williams' theme is just a cameo.

That's what I'm hoping. Danny's attitude regarding Batman had made me second guess his intentions.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 00:02
Sure, but it still doesn't make sense. A lighter version of the DCEU theme or a brand new theme would've been more ideal.

It does make sense you just can't comprehend it.  A new theme would be pointless. 

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 00:02
We are dealing with Ben Affleck's Batman, not Michael Keaton's Batman. I'm not sure you realize that - that's exactly what the beef is. It is about actors because that's how eras are defined.

Wrong.  Take a good look at The James Bond franchise.  They all have several different actors, which all take place in different eras.  Yet The Bond theme remains true to the character and not by the actor portraying him.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 22:57
And the best live action musical representation of such a character is Elfman's Iconic Score, end of story.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 00:02
That's completely subjective. End of story.

It may be subjective, but do you honestly think that Hans Zimmer or Junkie XL created a better "live action" Iconic musical representation of Batman more so than Danny Elfman?  No offense but Junkie XL's Music for Batman is One Dimensional same with Zimmer.  Danny's score is much more Versatile to the character.  Don't get me wrong here, I actually liked Junkie XL's efforts more so than Hans Zimmer.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 00:02
I don't have a problem with the musical direction of JL in terms of the lighter mood. But I have *always* been strict on musical continuity.

What's with everyone thinking that Elfman's score is lighter? I mean sure not every character in Justice League is Batman. Which makes sense to give lighter themes to the other league members.  But almost everyone is acting like his Batman Music is light all of a sudden.  When in fact it's very sound is true to the character.  Dark, Mysterious, Gothic, Operatic, and Heroic.  WTF, am I missing something here?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 20:58
Frankly, I'd probably respect Elfman more if he went the whole nine yards and devised a totally new theme for Batman rather than reintroducing his B89/BR hero theme.

Batman doesn't need a new theme.  He already has a iconic one and the same could be said for Superman.  but no, all you can see is that those themes belong in a separate Universe such as the Burtonverse or the Donnerverse.  You don't seem to realize that not all of us look at it that way.  Elfman's Theme is BATMAN in it's purest form.  Sure it's easy to associate it with Tim Burton or Michael Keaton.  but honestly it belongs to the character despite the era or the universe it takes place in,  the director's vision, or actor portraying him.  It's still BATMAN and the same goes for John Williams Superman.   

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 03:48
It does make sense you just can't comprehend it.

It doesn't make sense, you just can't comprehend it.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 03:48
Wrong.  Take a good look at The James Bond franchise.  They all have several different actors, which all take place in different eras.  Yet The Bond theme remains true to the character and not by the actor portraying him.

Nope, you're dead wrong. Bond (1962-2002) is a loosely connected series despite the actor changes. In Licence to Kill they reference the events of OHMSS, a 1969 film starring George Lazenby. And regardless, Batman has never kept the same theme - that's just how things are. There has always been a different theme for each incarnation. The rules have been established here. Elfman is simply ignoring them.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Wed,  1 Nov  2017, 22:57
It may be subjective, but do you honestly think that Hans Zimmer or Junkie XL created a better "live action" Iconic musical representation of Batman more so than Danny Elfman?  No offense but Junkie XL's Music for Batman is One Dimensional same with Zimmer.  Danny's score is much more Versatile to the character.  Don't get me wrong here, I actually liked Junkie XL's efforts more so than Hans Zimmer.

It is subjective, and we shouldn't even be talking about Danny Elfman's Batman theme here. Because it has just as much in common to Ben Affleck as the 60s, Goldenthal or Zimmer themes. I love Elfman's theme but the fact it's a good theme has nothing to do with this conversation.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 03:48
What's with everyone thinking that Elfman's score is lighter? I mean sure not every character in Justice League is Batman. Which makes sense to give lighter themes to the other league members.  But almost everyone is acting like his Batman Music is light all of a sudden.  When in fact it's very sound is true to the character.  Dark, Mysterious, Gothic, Operatic, and Heroic.  WTF, am I missing something here?

You're missing a lot. Elfman's music does have a lighter, whimsical touch even though it has dark elements. That's not a putdown, it's just how things are. Compare Zimmer to Elfman. There's a difference in the tone.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 03:48
You don't seem to realize that not all of us look at it that way.

And that is your failing - you can't comprehend the simplicity of what we're saying. It's not the same Batman. It's Ben Affleck's.

Danny Elfman has definitely taken the same approach as the Reeve Superman devotees - arguing that the score should be prevalent in all media.

I think people need to understand between preference and fact. I for one regard Elfman's theme as my favourite like a lot of people here. I love it to bits. But if I were to be objective for a minute, I can't necessarily say that it's definitive. Yes, it's iconic, but it's not definitive. We've had different movies and TV shows over the years that had different music to evoke Batman regardless whether you like them or not. Personally, I don't see this any different than stubborn people who only want to watch a new Superman movie that's a Christopher Reeve clone. Calling back to a bygone era only stifles experimenting new ideas and creativity.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 03:48Batman doesn't need a new theme.  He already has a iconic one and the same could be said for Superman.  but no, all you can see is that those themes belong in a separate Universe such as the Burtonverse or the Donnerverse.  You don't seem to realize that not all of us look at it that way.  Elfman's Theme is BATMAN in it's purest form.  Sure it's easy to associate it with Tim Burton or Michael Keaton.  but honestly it belongs to the character despite the era or the universe it takes place in,  the director's vision, or actor portraying him.  It's still BATMAN and the same goes for John Williams Superman.

I think you're missing it. These characters are myth. Myth survives when it grows and adapts. Arguably this is most true of Batman but even other characters have changed fairly substantially since their introduction.

Assigning them a certain piece of music as their "definitive" theme effectively encases them in amber and robs them of their essential evolution. As it happens, I'm a Superman guy first and foremost. I'm a lifelong student of the character. He's my GUY.

And I can tell you with authority that the Williams theme is soaring, powerful, driving, iconic and not definitive. It doesn't gel with the animated series, Lois & Clark, most iterations of the comics, the Snyder films, etc. I love the entire Williams score but it should be treated as just one entry in Superman's history.

Same with Batman. So many talented artists have created some really amazing themes for Batman and it would be a crying shame if any of them are discarded simply because some guy nearly 30 years ago composed a theme (admittedly a very solid one) for the character.

I remember people picking on Zimmer a bit for turning the Batman elements of the BVS score over to Junkie XL. But he did that precisely to avoid doing what Elfman is doing. It's kind of funny when you think of it that way.

Here's a clip from he movie, with the B89 theme in the background, and I know most of you aren't happy about it, but I think it works brilliantly in this small clip. I'm sure there will be more, but man, it works here. Getting more of a BTAS vibe than a B89 vibe. I love it!  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXKVU2K1OJo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXKVU2K1OJo)

Elfman's score is probably the most associated with Batman in the eyes of a whole new generation of young Batman film fans thanks to the Lego Batman games.

I watched the brief clips, and they only made me more excited. If the film is anything like that I'm going to be satisfied. I think it has the makings of a fan favorite. The heroes all seem to be strutting their stuff in cool ways. I won't repeat myself about the theme (my love for it can't be questioned) and be a downer because that's not what I want to be. I had a concern about the two hour runtime, but I seriously don't think it'll be an issue. Films that are focused and streamlined (such as Falling Down, which I rewatched yesterday) don't feel rushed in the slightest.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon,  6 Nov  2017, 00:24
Films that are focused and streamlined (such as Falling Down, which I rewatched yesterday) don't feel rushed in the slightest.

Let me guess, you're a Gavin McInnes fan?  ;)

I'm editing this post because hopefully I've made my point.

Quote from: Travesty on Mon,  6 Nov  2017, 01:12

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon,  6 Nov  2017, 00:24
Films that are focused and streamlined (such as Falling Down, which I rewatched yesterday) don't feel rushed in the slightest.

Let me guess, you're a Gavin McInnes fan?  ;)

Never heard of him until you typed his name.

I dig where this iteration of Gordon is headed. That's basically Gordon as elder statesman Gotham City cop the way I like him. There was an annoying trend going there of a semi-young Gordon and that doesn't work for me as well. Gordon should be older, wiser and well aware of Gotham City's infrastructural limitations... hence his tolerance of Batman.

I came up on comics where Gordon was at least ten or fifteen years older than Batman so a version of Gordon somewhere in his 60's is fine by me.

What I dig more than coal is the fact namtaB is a seasoned pro. When he's standing on the balcony with Gordon he's seen and done a lot already. Same goes for Gordon. Give me that over a rookie starring in an origin film any day of the week. But what I also dig is how namtaB is starting from scratch given he's dealing with space age threats. He's going to stomp these fools, but it's the first time he's doing so. It's the next chapter of his career - and he's more than qualified to take on the job.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 06:12
It doesn't make sense, you just can't comprehend it.

I comprehend it just fine.  The reason being is that Elfman's Batman Music has existed in other media besides the Burton film's,  such as animated shows, video games, toy commercials, trailers, Theme park Rides,  etc...
 

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 03:48
Wrong.  Take a good look at The James Bond franchise.  They all have several different actors, which all take place in different eras.  Yet The Bond theme remains true to the character and not by the actor portraying him.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 06:12
Nope, you're dead wrong. Bond (1962-2002) is a loosely connected series despite the actor changes. In Licence to Kill they reference the events of OHMSS, a 1969 film starring George Lazenby. And regardless, Batman has never kept the same theme - that's just how things are. There has always been a different theme for each incarnation. The rules have been established here. Elfman is simply ignoring them.

I'm not dead wrong.  OHMSS, George Lazenby at the opening fight breaks the 4th wall and says "This never happened to the other guy."  Obviously telling the Audience that this is not the Sean Connery James Bond.  James himself never ages throughout the series.  Money Penny is white in most incarnations and black in Craig's incarnation.  M has changed many times from Male to Female.  And don't even try to convince me with the whole "James Bond" is a CODENAME crap same with "M".  it's obvious that you don't understand what an homage is when it comes to references.  The references are not continuity(i.e. The Death of Bond's Wife) they are instead paying tribute of what came before that is all.  Each version of Bond is set up with it's own era and despite all this his musical main theme still remains true to the character.  That's like you literally trying to convince me that Batman Forever and Batman & Robin are part of the same continuity of the Burton films.  Which clearly they're are not.  Sure there are some references to previous installments, but they're paying homage not continuity.  Forever was a reboot not a true sequel.  Two face was black not white in the Burton film's.  Gotham was not Neon lights.  Elfman's theme at the time did not return.  Even Bruce's flashbacks of his parent's murder are different.   So all those references don't mean sh*t in terms of continuity. 

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 03:48
What's with everyone thinking that Elfman's score is lighter? I mean sure not every character in Justice League is Batman. Which makes sense to give lighter themes to the other league members.  But almost everyone is acting like his Batman Music is light all of a sudden.  When in fact it's very sound is true to the character.  Dark, Mysterious, Gothic, Operatic, and Heroic.  WTF, am I missing something here?

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 06:12
You're missing a lot. Elfman's music does have a lighter, whimsical touch even though it has dark elements. That's not a putdown, it's just how things are. Compare Zimmer to Elfman. There's a difference in the tone..

That is your opinion not a fact.

@ THE BAT-MAN
Yeah, whatever man. I'm not responding to you or anybody else about this anymore. You know how I feel, and I know how you feel. It's just going to go around in circles. Nobody is going to have minds changed here.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  4 Nov  2017, 00:33

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Thu,  2 Nov  2017, 03:48Batman doesn't need a new theme.  He already has a iconic one and the same could be said for Superman.  but no, all you can see is that those themes belong in a separate Universe such as the Burtonverse or the Donnerverse.  You don't seem to realize that not all of us look at it that way.  Elfman's Theme is BATMAN in it's purest form.  Sure it's easy to associate it with Tim Burton or Michael Keaton.  but honestly it belongs to the character despite the era or the universe it takes place in,  the director's vision, or actor portraying him.  It's still BATMAN and the same goes for John Williams Superman.

I think you're missing it. These characters are myth. Myth survives when it grows and adapts. Arguably this is most true of Batman but even other characters have changed fairly substantially since their introduction.

Assigning them a certain piece of music as their "definitive" theme effectively encases them in amber and robs them of their essential evolution. As it happens, I'm a Superman guy first and foremost. I'm a lifelong student of the character. He's my GUY.

And I can tell you with authority that the Williams theme is soaring, powerful, driving, iconic and not definitive. It doesn't gel with the animated series, Lois & Clark, most iterations of the comics, the Snyder films, etc. I love the entire Williams score but it should be treated as just one entry in Superman's history.

Same with Batman. So many talented artists have created some really amazing themes for Batman and it would be a crying shame if any of them are discarded simply because some guy nearly 30 years ago composed a theme (admittedly a very solid one) for the character.

I remember people picking on Zimmer a bit for turning the Batman elements of the BVS score over to Junkie XL. But he did that precisely to avoid doing what Elfman is doing. It's kind of funny when you think of it that way.

Despite what you may think or believe.  You sir, are not an authority when it comes to John Williams music or all things Superman.  Are you a composer? do you have enough creative imagination to write a full film score? Can you adapt themes and motifs that already exist?  I am a composer and I'm very good at adapting themes and I can tell you Superman's theme would work fine in any screen adaptation provided that you score and orchestrate it appropriately.  The same is applied with Batman and Elfman is proving that right now.

No matter what, I still got chills when the theme was heard in Batman's entrance.

Quote from: Paul (ral) on Sun,  5 Nov  2017, 23:59
Elfman's score is probably the most associated with Batman in the eyes of a whole new generation of young Batman film fans thanks to the Lego Batman games.

Do you know when you feel really ancient?

You see a youtube upload of the 1989 theme (from the OST), and down in the comments there's people saying things like "this brings back memories from Lego Batman".

Quote from: Azrael on Mon,  6 Nov  2017, 20:53
Do you know when you feel really ancient?

You see a youtube upload of the 1989 theme (from the OST), and down in the comments there's people saying things like "this brings back memories from Lego Batman".

Reading the comments section on YouTube is always an efficient way to feel miserable.  ;D

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Mon,  6 Nov  2017, 04:03Despite what you may think or believe.  You sir, are not an authority when it comes to John Williams music

I never claimed otherwise.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Mon,  6 Nov  2017, 04:03or all things Superman.

"All things"? That's a comprehensive statement which I'm not prepared to claim for myself.

I will say, however, that I would stack my knowledgeability about Superman comics against anybody on this board... which (with all due respect to everybody) is setting the bar rather low given that we're on a Batman forum rather than a Superman forum. But my point stands. I'm a lifelong student of Superman lore. Comics, animated shows, live action, you name it, I've watched it. I've studied the character and his mythos from a hundred different angles and perspectives. If this was a field of study, I daresay I'd at least have a master's degree.

In my opinion, that makes me uniquely qualified to say that for as wonderful as the Williams material is, it's not "definitive" (if we define that word to mean "universally applicable"). It isn't appropriate for the tone and style of every single Superman comic or cartoon or TV show or even film that's ever been made. It perfectly encapsulates a particular iteration and interpretation of the character. But my point is and has been that Donner's style isn't the only way to skin that particular cat.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Mon,  6 Nov  2017, 04:03Are you a composer? do you have enough creative imagination to write a full film score? Can you adapt themes and motifs that already exist?

My ability or inability to do that really isn't the point. The point is as I've said above. I love Williams's work on Superman but the character has a lot more potential than just that one approach.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Mon,  6 Nov  2017, 04:03I am a composer and I'm very good at adapting themes and I can tell you Superman's theme would work fine in any screen adaptation provided that you score and orchestrate it appropriately.

If I've got this right, you're saying that if you switch the tone of Williams's main hero theme, it can work for any version of Superman.

In effect, you're agreeing with me.

Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Mon,  6 Nov  2017, 04:03The same is applied with Batman and Elfman is proving that right now.

He's adapting his Batman theme to work with the new film. And when it comes to Batman, I've said that he's had several different hero themes over the years. He's always been more dynamic than most other characters so that shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody.  I rather enjoy what Elfman, Goldenthal, Zimmer, Drake and others have brought to the table. BVS gave us Junkie XL's Wagnerian Batman theme and I still see no reason to jettison that just because muh Danny Elfman is doing the score again.

Whatever. What's done is done and this is the direction things are going. This too shall pass. History teaches us that much. If one doesn't enjoy the direction of Batman film scores currently, eh. Just wait a while. Change is never far away when it comes to Batman. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

Quote from: Azrael on Mon,  6 Nov  2017, 20:53
No matter what, I still got chills when the theme was heard in Batman's entrance.

Quote from: Paul (ral) on Sun,  5 Nov  2017, 23:59
Elfman's score is probably the most associated with Batman in the eyes of a whole new generation of young Batman film fans thanks to the Lego Batman games.

Do you know when you feel really ancient?

You see a youtube upload of the 1989 theme (from the OST), and down in the comments there's people saying things like "this brings back memories from Lego Batman".

My kid was going through my CDs and put on 89's score - "Hey it's Lego Batman!!"

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 02:37
I will say, however, that I would stack my knowledgeability about Superman comics against anybody on this board... which (with all due respect to everybody) is setting the bar rather low given that we're on a Batman forum rather than a Superman forum. But my point stands. I'm a lifelong student of Superman lore. Comics, animated shows, live action, you name it, I've watched it. I've studied the character and his mythos from a hundred different angles and perspectives. If this was a field of study, I daresay I'd at least have a master's degree.

I'm still on training wheels compared to true Superman scholars like colors. But my attitudes changed markedly in recent years. Honestly, I only viewed Superman as someone Batman used to beat up every so often. But I see that mindset as trash now, even though I'm on team Batman if push comes to shove. The whole 'Superman is too powerful' meme is trash too.

Seriously, Batman is just as invulnerable as Superman most of the time in terms of taking down foes with ease and sustaining limited damage. The idea Superman isn't a cool character is trash. Being a walking cheat code (super strength, X-ray vision, super hearing, freeze breathe, flight) isn't cool? If that's not cool, nothing is. Batman is undeniably cool/badass, but would anybody really want to be him, warts and all? Superman is more of a wish fulfilment character. What a mortal dreams of being but can't, so they hit the gym instead.

The idea that Superman doesn't have decent foes is trash. Lex is amazing. Brainiac is amazing. Darkseid is amazing. Bizarre is amazing, and tragic as well. Doomsday is a mindless brute but he's perfect for destructive battles. Zod is a good character. Parasite is a decent villain because the concept is simple but effective, same goes for Metallo. I enjoyed Toyman on STAS. There's enough villainy there for me to be satisifed.

Going into JL I'm excited about what Superman's role will be. There's a lot riding on this, and they know it. I think the character is in a good place right nw, but a video game or something else needs to capitalize on this mood. But in any case, I'm on board with the character and would consider myself a fan...again, even though my knowledge doesn't compete with yours. I'm simply enjoying the character.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 13:24
The whole 'Superman is too powerful' meme is trash too.

I have been defending the character for a long time. Whether they say he's "too powerful" or "not edgy enough," I think the real reason those people don't like him is because he doesn't match their glib, "edgy this, edgy that," "I hate Mondays" lifestyle.

Having said that, the character is more than just a one-dimensional "boy scout," as he is sometimes called. Just because he is a symbol of hope doesn't mean he's infallible, and what's so bad about that anyway, being a symbol of hope?

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 13:24

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 02:37
I will say, however, that I would stack my knowledgeability about Superman comics against anybody on this board... which (with all due respect to everybody) is setting the bar rather low given that we're on a Batman forum rather than a Superman forum. But my point stands. I'm a lifelong student of Superman lore. Comics, animated shows, live action, you name it, I've watched it. I've studied the character and his mythos from a hundred different angles and perspectives. If this was a field of study, I daresay I'd at least have a master's degree.

I'm still on training wheels compared to true Superman scholars like colors. But my attitudes changed markedly in recent years. Honestly, I only viewed Superman as someone Batman used to beat up every so often. But I see that mindset as trash now, even though I'm on team Batman if push comes to shove. The whole 'Superman is too powerful' meme is trash too.

Seriously, Batman is just as invulnerable as Superman most of the time in terms of taking down foes with ease and sustaining limited damage. The idea Superman isn't a cool character is trash. Being a walking cheat code (super strength, X-ray vision, super hearing, freeze breathe, flight) isn't cool? If that's not cool, nothing is. Batman is undeniably cool/badass, but would anybody really want to be him, warts and all? Superman is more of a wish fulfilment character. What a mortal dreams of being but can't, so they hit the gym instead.

The idea that Superman doesn't have decent foes is trash. Lex is amazing. Brainiac is amazing. Darkseid is amazing. Bizarre is amazing, and tragic as well. Doomsday is a mindless brute but he's perfect for destructive battles. Zod is a good character. Parasite is a decent villain because the concept is simple but effective, same goes for Metallo. I enjoyed Toyman on STAS. There's enough villainy there for me to be satisifed.

Going into JL I'm excited about what Superman's role will be. There's a lot riding on this, and they know it. I think the character is in a good place right nw, but a video game or something else needs to capitalize on this mood. But in any case, I'm on board with the character and would consider myself a fan...again, even though my knowledge doesn't compete with yours. I'm simply enjoying the character.

I like the wish-fulfillment thing. Superman embodies that in a way that others characters just can't. But I also see the character as equally an aspirational ideal. The "higher man" idea of Superman having basically a superior moral core.

As far as JL goes, I'm kind of ambivalent about Superman's participation in it. I'm happy to have Snyder's MOS and BVS... but, as Superman stories, I didn't NEED them. I have tons of Superman comics, shows and movies to enjoy. More is better but not necessary.

Right now, this very moment, I'm more concerned with Batman. I want the Batman of the late 80's and early 90's, that era, to be adapted into film. That's MY Batman. Jason Todd is dead, he is remembered as Bruce's greatest mistake, Gordon is struggling to make it work with Essen, Dick is making his bones as Nightwing, that's the type of thing I want in movies now.

Not to sound too ranty but I'm done with the movies side-stepping those issues, characters and conflicts. I want to see them explored in live action for once.

Quote from: GoNerdYourself on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 16:28
Having said that, the character is more than just a one-dimensional "boy scout," as he is sometimes called. Just because he is a symbol of hope doesn't mean he's infallible, and what's so bad about that anyway, being a symbol of hope?

Yep. There is a dorky goodness about the character that I think should be present in some form - which is brilliantly demonstrated in JL: Action. But all that aside, Superman is a far more interesting character than he's ever given credit for. Four things that stick out to me:

He has huge responsibilities and the weight of expectation.
He knows he can't save everyone or be everywhere where he's needed.
He could very easily be a dictator but he chooses not to be.
He knows he's going to outlive all his friends and family.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 23:03
I like the wish-fulfillment thing. Superman embodies that in a way that others characters just can't. But I also see the character as equally an aspirational ideal. The "higher man" idea of Superman having basically a superior moral core.

Yeah. Superman is more of a spiritual guide. He'll keep on his path and hopefully one day people wake up and realize he's right. It's a long term approach. Batman is more about bashing up goons to solve the problems we face in this very moment. Batman is a human being. He's going to get old and die. Superman is going to be around for a very long time, and even if people still don't join his crusade, he'll still be around to guide them. Batman is a haunted, lonely man. But Superman carries that burden as well. And as the years pass, he's carrying that burden more than Batman ever did.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 00:12Yeah. Superman is more of a spiritual guide. He'll keep on his path and hopefully one day people wake up and realize he's right. It's a long term approach. Batman is more about bashing up goons to solve the problems we face in this very moment. Batman is a human being. He's going to get old and die. Superman is going to be around for a very long time, and even if people still don't join his crusade, he'll still be around to guide them. Batman is a haunted, lonely man. But Superman carries that burden as well. And as the years pass, he's carrying that burden more than Batman ever did.

I think of things in terms of the end game. Batman's stated goal (as per Jeph Loeb) is to rid Gotham City of the evil that took his parents' lives. Superman is fighting a never-ending battle for truth, justice and the American way.

Batman will fail in his goal. But Superman doesn't have a goal; he has a philosophy. By definition, the only possible outcome for Superman is victory. Meanwhile, the only possible outcome for Batman (if he sticks to his goal) is defeat.

This may bother some people but I think Superman sees the big picture in ways that Batman is too stunted and traumatized to ever manage.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 04:11
I think of things in terms of the end game. Batman's stated goal (as per Jeph Loeb) is to rid Gotham City of the evil that took his parents' lives. Superman is fighting a never-ending battle for truth, justice and the American way.

Batman will fail in his goal. But Superman doesn't have a goal; he has a philosophy. By definition, the only possible outcome for Superman is victory. Meanwhile, the only possible outcome for Batman (if he sticks to his goal) is defeat.

This may bother some people but I think Superman sees the big picture in ways that Batman is too stunted and traumatized to ever manage.

Batman is really only doing what he can given his limitations as a human being. He can go to the gym, bash criminals and repeat this process until the day he retires. He can't change the reality this will be a short term solution to Gotham's crime problem. The day he hangs up the cape and cowl there will still be a gang banger holding up a bank, or a super villain being born with a jolt of electricity mixed with swamp gas from Mars.

Batman only really fails because he has to retire at some point. But even then, he can be a mentor to the next generation. But indeed, it's not him on the front lines. And his solution is simply an extension of what he was doing himself. Helping another vigilante's efforts to stomp criminals. And thus this would have to be passed on to someone else, like The Phantom concept.

My dream ending for Superman is that he doesn't succeed. He simply outlives everyone on Earth, roaming this empty landscape. And eventually, the sun explodes. Superman poetically decides to die in the inferno. I'm sure this was a proposed film at some point...I think it's great. It's not happy or uplifting, but it's really poignant. And I think fitting.

A few thoughts on the whole Batman/Superman debate. Two arguments I often hear in favour of Batman being the more interesting character:

1)   Superman is dull because he's too powerful.
2)   Batman is more relatable because he's a real guy, not an alien.

As to the first argument, it's important to remember there are two basic versions of Batman. There's solo Batman: an ordinary human detective that occasionally gets kayoed by run-of-the-mill street thugs.


Then there's Justice League Batman, aka 'Bat-god': an invincible Gary Stu clad in impenetrable plot armour, capable of singlehandedly taking down the entire JLA and dominating characters as powerful as Superman and Darkseid.


If Superman is dull because he's too powerful, then JLA Batman is positively soporific.

As to the second argument – the one about Batman being more relatable – let's look at both characters in terms of wish fulfilment. Batman and Superman are both power fantasies. Batman gets to be the world's greatest athlete and drive lots of cool vehicles and wield lots of wonderful toys, while Superman gets to fly, move superfast and be the strongest man on the planet. I think we can all agree these are both power fantasies.

But here's the thing – Bruce Wayne is also a power fantasy, albeit of a different sort. Bruce Wayne is the billionaire playboy who is a magnet for beautiful women, gets to lie in bed until 3pm every day, has a butler to do all his housework for him, and gets access to all the swankiest parties in Gotham. Clark Kent is an ordinary bloke who has to work for a living and has day-to-day responsibilities relating to family, friends and co-workers. Clark Kent is not a power fantasy. Bruce Wayne is. So which character is more relatable? Unless you're the ghost of Hugh Hefner, the answer should really be Superman. At least that's my take.

Solid points as usual. Both are cool characters for the reasons you describe. When it comes to being a HERO, I side with Superman for the simple fact he has superpowers. Who doesn't dream of that? It's something that will always captures the imagination of children, and manages to stay with us as adults.

Batman warts and all typically means you'd be an always alert, haunted wolf of a person (ha, which is what I am..whether I like it or not). So a change of pace in that regard would be refreshing. I can just imagine what I'd get up to with super powers.

I absolutely agree with you about the Clark and Bruce comparisons. I've always said that I couldn't live with myself being the strongest man on Earth, and then getting walked all over by others and being told off. I understand that's the contrast in terms of the comics, but I still wouldn't want to live it. I'd take Bruce Wayne's lifestyle hands down.

Basically, I'm interested in power and commanding respect. But indeed, Clark is the Everyman more in touch with his humanity. They're both characters that compliment each other really well.

1:14 in "The Final Battle"  ;D ;D ;D ;D

(what happened to "The Final Confrontation" track title which Elfman always favoured, lol)

I have mixed feelings about the score.

Danny used the John Williams Superman theme, his own Batman and Hulk themes, and even the Avengers theme. He did use the Zimmer Wonder Woman theme (though I think it lacks power and doesn't compare to the original recording). I think Elfman had too much creative freedom here. He left Spider-Man 3 because Raimi wouldn't allow it, and now we know why.

Now that's out of the way, I can get onto what I like.

While it doesn't come close to his work on B89 or BR, I think the score will serve the film's tone rather well. I don't have a problem with a lighter flourish and when accompanied by the visuals I'm sure it'll be fine. But when compared to the Zimmer MoS score...I can't help but feel underwhelmed.

My favorite track is 'Hero's Theme'. It has a dark undercurrent that keeps a nice balance between grit and optimism. The choral interlude is really nice. All in all, Elfman did a great job with this one. But nothing else on the album really comes close to this track. 'Batman on the Roof' has a kinda nice atmosphere but it doesn't really amount to anything.

At the moment I think it's an okay album, just not amazing.

I find myself listening to the cover version of Come Together more.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 00:16I have mixed feelings about the score.

Same here.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 00:16Danny used the John Williams Superman theme, his own Batman and Hulk themes, and even the Avengers theme.

Did my ears deceive me or did we get a bit of Spider-Man in there too? I thought I heard some flavors of that in various tracks.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 00:16He left Spider-Man 3 because Raimi wouldn't allow it, and now we know why.

I've heard versions of the story where he quit and others where he was fired. But either way, it comes to the same, I suppose. If what he wanted for Spider-Man 3 was as big a break from what had come before as JL is with MOS and BVS, I can understand why a falling out would've taken place.

I'm pissed. I'll say it. I never heard Zimmer's Superman themes/motifs in Elfman's score. He checked the Williams Superman theme, which is cute, but he didn't really go much beyond a tease of it. And if the album is anything to judge by, he wholesale avoided the Zimmer Superman stuff.

The other weird thing is he didn't do much more with his own Batman theme. The Elfman hero theme is teased, it's hinted at but there's never really a "Descent Into Mystery" moment where that theme propels the track. The theme is instead squeezed in here and there but that's about it. Bad enough that Junkie's theme was abandoned for no reason. But the replacement we get isn't as powerful and propulsive as Junkie's work would've been.

If it sounds like it's the worst of both worlds, it's because it is in fact the worst of both worlds.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 00:16While it doesn't come close to his work on B89 or BR

To say the very least

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 00:16But when compared to the Zimmer MoS score...I can't help but feel underwhelmed.

Same here. I've played the album once and don't feel any great desire to ever play it again.

Maybe this score needs time to grow on me. It was years and years before I really glommed on to what Elfman was up to with the BR score or Thomas Newman's percussive simplicity with the American Beauty score. Some scores are just like that. You need time to really soak it in.

But if I had to stake a claim right now, I wouldn't anticipate this album being a regular fixture in my rotation.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 04:34
Did my ears deceive me or did we get a bit of Spider-Man in there too? I thought I heard some flavors of that in various tracks.

Yeah, I spotted that influence too. Thanks for bringing it up - I forgot about it.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 04:34
I'm pissed. I'll say it. I never heard Zimmer's Superman themes/motifs in Elfman's score. He checked the Williams Superman theme, which is cute, but he didn't really go much beyond a tease of it. And if the album is anything to judge by, he wholesale avoided the Zimmer Superman stuff.

Apparently there is a reference to the Zimmer Superman theme, but Elfman left it off the soundtrack. It's sad when my most anticipated segment of the score doesn't originate from the composer of the film.

Elfman has a lot of goodwill from my end simply because of his work on B89/BR. But lately I've come to realize how much I've warmed to the Zimmer/Junkie XL sound. Compare something like 'Their War Here' to Elfman's 'The Tunnel Fight'. The Zimmer/Junkie XL melody is more defined and engaging from my point of view. I'm compelled to keep listening, whereas I'm not really excited with Elfman's newer stuff. But my main issue? Marvel has a hodgepodge musical landscape. Elfman brought that problem over to the DCEU when he didn't need to.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 04:34
The other weird thing is he didn't do much more with his own Batman theme. The Elfman hero theme is teased, it's hinted at but there's never really a "Descent Into Mystery" moment where that theme propels the track. The theme is instead squeezed in here and there but that's about it. Bad enough that Junkie's theme was abandoned for no reason. But the replacement we get isn't as powerful and propulsive as Junkie's work would've been.

I know what you mean. Elfman said this in an interview:

Quote"There was a moment where the Batmobile shoots out of a thing and he goes, 'Go batsh*t crazy here! Batman the sh*t out of it!' When I'm using the Batman theme, I'm using the melodic sense of it, I'm wasn't doing full-on Batman, and there's a moment when he says, 'No, right here, Full on!'"

I'm assuming that moment is what we hear in the soundtrack. If that's 'full on' Batman, it lacks power.

As said, I'm sure the score will be okay against the visuals. But for me, I think it's clear that outside of his Batman theme (which was done 28 years ago) and reusing the John Williams theme, Danny doesn't really have much to offer anymore outside of recycling past glories.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 23:46As said, I'm sure the score will be okay against the visuals. But for me, I think it's clear that outside of his Batman theme (which was done 28 years ago) and reusing the John Williams theme, Danny doesn't really have much to offer anymore outside of recycling past glories.

Aye, and there's the rub. It's hard to think back to it now but after B89 came out... well, BR (as a score) wasn't necessarily where anybody thought Elfman would go. And indeed he doesn't make the most obvious and most intuitive choices with that score. He devised an elegant and tragic theme for the Penguin, he gave Catwoman a motif of meowing strings and the Batman hero theme has been augmented with a chorale arrangement.

It's an elegant and beautiful score... but, again, not what anybody would've expected after B89.

As you say, he's lost it. Whatever IT is, it's gone.

Haven't seen the film yet, but I do want to comment on something I've thought about for a while re. film scoring...

I reject out of hand the idea that, because a new iteration of these characters comes along, everything must start from scratch, including the music. Leaving out personal bias, there's a good reason to retain established themes, and the best example of it is James Bond. As has been mentioned in this thread, he's gone through six actors, ten directors, and numerous writers, composers, and producers. He's been played as elegantly ruthless, strayed into science fiction, come dangerously close to Jason Bourne territory, entertained intentional camp, and flirted with the epic. Throughout all the (sometimes radical) shifts in look, tone, and attitude, certain building blocks of the filmmaking have stayed in place: the gun barrel opening, the opening credits sequence with the women, the supporting cast at Mi6 (except in cases of death or retirement)...and the James Bond Theme. Some might dismiss these as superficial elements, but they're crucial to lending the series a certain consistency throughout all the big changes, and they give a general audience - not necessarily hard-core fans, but a general audience - a place of comfort. So that, when the films undergo rather dramatic shifts in style and tone, there are at least a few easily identifiable pieces to latch onto and say "this is still Bond."

And retaining the Bond theme hasn't been limiting to composers who've worked on the series, so far as I can see. The theme itself is rearranged, re-orchestrated, and incorporated to whatever else the composer does in every film. Another (less consistent) example would be the Godzilla series. In the Showa era, themes varied according to the composer, but by the late 80s, Akira Ifukube's melodies had been settled on as the defining music of the Toho kaiju, or at least for Godzilla himself; hence, even if Ifukube wasn't composing, most of the films since have used his theme.

IMO, superhero film series should've been following this practice from the start. To bring in personal bias - film scores are the last best means for orchestral music to enter into the culture, and certain themes and melodies - including John Williams' Superman theme - have obtained the same prevalence in our culture as the most recognized works of Beethoven, Wagner, etc. Again, things might be different for hard-core fans, but for a general audience, that sort of music does become iconic and definitive. And Elfman's point in interviews about how such melodies become like DNA should be better understood. A strong, central melody, like his Batman theme or Williams' Superman theme, doesn't have to sound constantly throughout a soundtrack, but it can inform how the rest of the soundtrack is written. The themes themselves, especially if they're vintage, can be saved for key moments - the approach Elfman seems to have taken with this score.

And I think his use of Williams' Superman theme is a great example of how arrangement and orchestration can inject new life and color into an established theme. Dropping in a brief reprise of the main melody, arranged in a new key, juxtaposed against harsh and dissonant strings, can turn what was meant to be a very driving, upbeat, heroic sound into something menacing. Williams himself has shown that trick off for years as he's reworked his themes for Harry Potter and Star Wars to fit new scenes and situations. So the argument that an established theme somehow wouldn't be appropriate to a new take on these characters doesn't hold water for me; a talented enough composer (and orchestrator) can make them work for nearly any mood.

Of course, I might feel differently if I liked anything that Zimmer and XL had done in the previous films - but I didn't. Outside of a few films (in which he had others' melodies to work with), Zimmer has never been a favorite of mine, and music was just one of many aesthetic elements of BvS I found unremarkable and unpalatable.

Quote from: zDBZ on Thu, 23 Nov  2017, 04:09
IMO, superhero film series should've been following this practice from the start. To bring in personal bias - film scores are the last best means for orchestral music to enter into the culture, and certain themes and melodies - including John Williams' Superman theme - have obtained the same prevalence in our culture as the most recognized works of Beethoven, Wagner, etc. Again, things might be different for hard-core fans, but for a general audience, that sort of music does become iconic and definitive. And Elfman's point in interviews about how such melodies become like DNA should be better understood. A strong, central melody, like his Batman theme or Williams' Superman theme, doesn't have to sound constantly throughout a soundtrack, but it can inform how the rest of the soundtrack is written. The themes themselves, especially if they're vintage, can be saved for key moments - the approach Elfman seems to have taken with this score.

And I think his use of Williams' Superman theme is a great example of how arrangement and orchestration can inject new life and color into an established theme. Dropping in a brief reprise of the main melody, arranged in a new key, juxtaposed against harsh and dissonant strings, can turn what was meant to be a very driving, upbeat, heroic sound into something menacing. Williams himself has shown that trick off for years as he's reworked his themes for Harry Potter and Star Wars to fit new scenes and situations. So the argument that an established theme somehow wouldn't be appropriate to a new take on these characters doesn't hold water for me; a talented enough composer (and orchestrator) can make them work for nearly any mood.

John Williams' theme is definitely iconic, no disputing that. But here is the thing: Superman, whether anybody likes it or nor, still has a history long before the score that John Williams composed in 1978. The same thing goes for the Donner movie. If we keep paying homage to a particular theme because of a sense that it's iconic, it only stifles creativity and variety.

I've always regarded that Danny Elfman's Batman scores for the Burton films to be the best to this day. But, putting that aside, I found his JL score to one of the weakest parts of this film. Even I don't compare it to B89 and BR, for me, it's just bland and forgettable. On top of that, his Batman theme and Williams' Superman theme were just musical cameos. If this is how Elfman scores music nowadays, he's lost his touch.

I was never the biggest Zimmer myself, his musical collaboration with James Newton Howard for the Nolan films were absolutely dull with the exception of Bane's theme. But for what it's worth, I don't begrudge for not reusing the Elfman theme. In principle, I was in favour of starting something different, even if I didn't like the result. I actually do prefer his MOS and BvS collaboration with Junkie XL. The music in those two soundtracks were just much more impressive and creative than what Elfman offered here.

Elfman's score was garbage.

Zimmer had the guts to create a brand new theme for Superman, like other composers had done before him. His back was up against the wall, with the constant droning about how good Williams was. And he delivered, at least to me, big time. He UPDATED the music for the next generation, while retaining the general spirit.

If Elfman had his way, Zimmer would've just kept using the Williams theme. And that would mean my favorite Superman score wouldn't even exist. Zimmer's MOS and BvS scores had power and poignancy, and when compared to Elfman's pitifully bland effort, it's a masterpiece. Why didn't Elfman use Nelson Riddle's theme for B89 and BR? I thought this guy hated composers creating new themes for different interpretations?

Elfman doesn't get it. The sound for the new films had already been ESTABLISHED. Dredging up the past clashed with that and didn't make any sense. When the Batmobile exists the Flying Fox he uses the B89 theme, but it's largely drowned out by background noise. So it makes you think why he even bothered using it at all. It's all very backward, safe and confusing.

I've been hard on Zimmer during the TDK days, but he at least remained CONSISTENT with the Nolan era sound. I respect that. His music grew on me over time and when compared to modern day Elfman, he's my preference these days.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 25 Nov  2017, 08:15
John Williams' theme is definitely iconic, no disputing that. But here is the thing: Superman, whether anybody likes it or nor, still has a history long before the score that John Williams composed in 1978. The same thing goes for the Donner movie. If we keep paying homage to a particular theme because of a sense that it's iconic, it only stifles creativity and variety.

Well, there's a history for Superman before the Fortress of Solitude. And for Batman before the Batmobile. When certain aesthetic elements get introduced, if they catch on in a big enough way - with the creative teams that continue these characters, with the general audience, or with both - they end up absorbed into the basic DNA of the character's world. You don't swap in a spaceship anchored off the coast of the Amazon, or a lavender hover car with ears around the cockpit, just because you're doing a "new" version; you do variations on the established elements. Those examples don't make for a perfect analogy with a musical score, but the same basic principle applies.

And it's just not true that retaining a theme stifles creativity and variety. Go back to Bond - the continued presence of Monty Norman's theme didn't stop Marvin Hamlisch from drawing on disco, or Éric Serra from writing an "avant-garde" techno score, or John Barry from trying out a number of styles throughout his long tenure on the series. The theme, in all those cases, was reworked to fit the larger score, not the other way around, and in effect became a "musical cameo," as you put it. Which is not an inherent negative. Doing variations on a theme, by its nature, provides variety, in how it demonstrates the ways one piece of music can be stretched and turned and arranged.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 25 Nov  2017, 09:19
Why didn't Elfman use Nelson Riddle's theme for B89 and BR? I thought this guy hated composers creating new themes for different interpretations?

Elfman doesn't get it. The sound for the new films had already been ESTABLISHED.

I can't speak for Elfman, obviously, but there are a number of practical reasons why the 66 Batman theme (written by Neal Hefti; Riddle was the series composer) wasn't used. 20th Century Fox could've refused to allow its use; Michael Uslan was dead set against having any connection to the 60s series; Peters and Guber might not have wanted it, if only so they could push the Prince album; Tim Burton could've been opposed to using it (when an interviewer at the time asked him why he hadn't included the theme, Burton reportedly just shrugged). The composer does not have final say on the music any more than an actor has a say on which of their takes gets used. But Elfman - and others involved in B89 - may have concluded that the 60s series, being deliberate camp and satire, was somewhat removed from the character, and that their efforts - including their musical efforts - were the first high-profile attempt to establish an "authentic" take on the character outside of the comics.

And were I in Elfman's place, I might have said, for all the reasons I've given, that the sound for the characters had already been established, and a new film attempting a different sound simply for the sake of having something new was in error.

Quote from: zDBZ on Thu, 30 Nov  2017, 07:50
And it's just not true that retaining a theme stifles creativity and variety. Go back to Bond - the continued presence of Monty Norman's theme didn't stop Marvin Hamlisch from drawing on disco, or Éric Serra from writing an "avant-garde" techno score, or John Barry from trying out a number of styles throughout his long tenure on the series. The theme, in all those cases, was reworked to fit the larger score, not the other way around, and in effect became a "musical cameo," as you put it. Which is not an inherent negative. Doing variations on a theme, by its nature, provides variety, in how it demonstrates the ways one piece of music can be stretched and turned and arranged.

The James Bond theme may have had a rich history, but Batman and Superman have never had the same success. Look at the rehash of the Williams score in Superman Returns, and it brought nothing new or innovative to offer. Yes, Elfman only uses the Batman 89 and Superman 78 themes as cameos in JL, and it is kind of a bad thing as it doesn't really elicit a strong emotion, at least not from me. Besides, you might see a hardcore Spider-Man fan who finds the 1960s cartoon theme as definitive, but that wouldn't stop Elfman from creating his own score for the Raimi films, did it? If we had the attitude that the Elfman score is the "be all and end all" that must be rearranged, we might've missed out on Shirley Walker's BTAS theme which is just as good (ironically, it was definitely influenced by Elfman's theme but then it became its own).

As I said before, I love both Elfman and Williams scores, but there is more to Batman and Superman than just the music.

I thought I would put this here, since it's somewhat relevant. This is a BR trailer, cut to look like the movie was made by Snyder. He used a different filter, and then edited some of Junkie's/Zimmers music in here, and it works really well. I know earlier some said putting a different score on a movie feels out of place, but I gotta say, I think this works here....or at least, for this little 2 min trailer. Either way, I thought it was interesting to share.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl_RN8RD4qI

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 30 Nov  2017, 11:32

Quote from: zDBZ on Thu, 30 Nov  2017, 07:50
And it's just not true that retaining a theme stifles creativity and variety. Go back to Bond - the continued presence of Monty Norman's theme didn't stop Marvin Hamlisch from drawing on disco, or Éric Serra from writing an "avant-garde" techno score, or John Barry from trying out a number of styles throughout his long tenure on the series. The theme, in all those cases, was reworked to fit the larger score, not the other way around, and in effect became a "musical cameo," as you put it. Which is not an inherent negative. Doing variations on a theme, by its nature, provides variety, in how it demonstrates the ways one piece of music can be stretched and turned and arranged.

The James Bond theme may have had a rich history, but Batman and Superman have never had the same success. Look at the rehash of the Williams score in Superman Returns, and it brought nothing new or innovative to offer. Yes, Elfman only uses the Batman 89 and Superman 78 themes as cameos in JL, and it is kind of a bad thing as it doesn't really elicit a strong emotion, at least not from me. Besides, you might see a hardcore Spider-Man fan who finds the 1960s cartoon theme as definitive, but that wouldn't stop Elfman from creating his own score for the Raimi films, did it? If we had the attitude that the Elfman score is the "be all and end all" that must be rearranged, we might've missed out on Shirley Walker's BTAS theme which is just as good (ironically, it was definitely influenced by Elfman's theme but then it became its own).

As I said before, I love both Elfman and Williams scores, but there is more to Batman and Superman than just the music.

I'm coming back to this. Now that ZSJL is coming out and Junkie XL has returned to finish the score he started four years ago, this is what he said in his latest interview with Forbes.com.

Quote from: Junkie XL
Different characters have different musical statements to those same characters in the past. Much like their stories in the comics, they change and evolve over the years. So, what was a great theme for Superman in the 70s doesn't mean that it is the right theme for Superman in 2013. When the director takes on a superhero character, and when a composer takes on the superhero character, they should do what feels right inside them.

You should come up with a theme that inspires you for that character. I think that is important in the development of these movies. If Mad Max gets remade in 25 years, I'm not expecting people to do something similar to what I did for Fury Road, you know? Give it your take.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/simonthompson/2020/09/16/music-business-zack-snyder-justice-league-junkie-xl-tom-holkenborg-dcu-snyder-cut/#68b333655625

Spot on. It's a very reasonable thought process, unlike Danny Elfman's gatekeeping stance.

Holkenborg mentioned that the MOS and WW themes will be heard in the Snyder cut, while all of the other characters will have new themes. Surprisingly, that includes Batman. I guess the BvS score really was indicative of his character arc in the film.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 23:46
But for me, I think it's clear that outside of his Batman theme (which was done 28 years ago) and reusing the John Williams theme, Danny doesn't really have much to offer anymore outside of recycling past glories.

I discovered Junkie XL threw out his original Justice League score and started again during the lockdown. I was always under the impression the score was complete and just sitting there to be used, but seemingly the score was only about half done. 

Junkie left the project and then Elfman did his retrograde trash. Once the Snyder cut became a reality, Junkie had evolved artistically and made the decision to reflect that in the music. Complete the rest of what he had scored, or start afresh? I can see the decision making process there. The new stuff would've been new and not from 'back in the day', so why not begin again? He certainly had enough time to do so.

I would've liked to have heard the original Junkie score, but from some reactions I've glanced at nearly everyone says the score is heavy duty rocking goodness. So ultimately it doesn't matter. The score will be good, and to us, this will be the score, anyway.

Batman's theme, which we will hear for the first time when see the movie, is going to be different from BvS. But guess what? It's a new theme, not an old one. It's an evolution and coming from a composer who actually worked on the previous film. I can accept the change for those reasons.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 17 Mar  2021, 02:15

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 23:46
But for me, I think it's clear that outside of his Batman theme (which was done 28 years ago) and reusing the John Williams theme, Danny doesn't really have much to offer anymore outside of recycling past glories.

I discovered Junkie XL threw out his original Justice League score and started again during the lockdown. I was always under the impression the score was complete and just sitting there to be used, but seemingly the score was only about half done. 

Junkie left the project and then Elfman did his retrograde trash. Once the Snyder cut became a reality, Junkie had evolved artistically and made the decision to reflect that in the music. Complete the rest of what he had scored, or start afresh? I can see the decision making process there. The new stuff would've been new and not from 'back in the day', so why not begin again? He certainly had enough time to do so.

I would've liked to have heard the original Junkie score, but from some reactions I've glanced at nearly everyone says the score is heavy duty rocking goodness. So ultimately it doesn't matter. The score will be good, and to us, this will be the score, anyway.

Batman's theme, which we will hear for the first time when see the movie, is going to be different from BvS. But guess what? It's a new theme, not an old one. It's an evolution and coming from a composer who actually worked on the previous film. I can accept the change for those reasons.

I think the cut of the movie that Junkie would've scored back in 2017 was only two maybe two and a half hours long. So, he was always going to have to come up with new stuff anyway. If you ask me, it only makes sense to go all the way with it and rebuild the entire score from the ground up since the cut of the movie had changed so drastically. I believe that Junkie did the right thing in starting over from page one and going from there.

Still, MOS and BVS introduced certain musical themes and motifs which I adore. A new Batman theme is fine in its place. But I hope Junkie reprises as many themes as possible from the previous two movies to lend musical continuity to ZSJL.

Agreed. When he resumed scoring it was never going to be the frozen in time experience from 2017.

The Zimmer Superman theme apparently gets a good workout, which I think is the most important component, and the Zimmer Wonder Woman theme is retained, with a twist. Aquaman, Cyborg and Flash are blank canvasses musically so Junkie can really do whatever he wants there.

Zimmer wasn't around as a collaborator. Starting over with ZSJL lets him provide an undisputed Junkie XL performance free from anyone else, excluding some essential carryover material. As said, the score seems to be a huge hit, so this is fast becoming a victory lap for Junkie and his career.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 17 Mar  2021, 13:03
Agreed. When he resumed scoring it was never going to be the frozen in time experience from 2017.

The Zimmer Superman theme apparently gets a good workout, which I think is the most important component, and the Zimmer Wonder Woman theme is retained, with a twist. Aquaman, Cyborg and Flash are blank canvasses musically so Junkie can really do whatever he wants there.

Zimmer wasn't around as a collaborator. Starting over with ZSJL lets him provide an undisputed Junkie XL performance free from anyone else, excluding some essential carryover material. As said, the score seems to be a huge hit, so this is fast becoming a victory lap for Junkie and his career.

I say good on him. When it comes to BVS, I don't think Junkie has gotten the credit he deserves. People seem to want to stop giving credit after they say the word "Zimmer". And I love Zimmer, don't get me wrong.

But basically, everything to do with Batman in BVS is due to Junkie. Zimmer made a point of not wanting to revisit the character. Because we've already heard Zimmer's Batman themes. It's logical to think that other tracks on the BVS score came from Junkie too. But it's like he's never getting credit for that because reasons.

ZSJL is his biggest opportunity and I'm glad he's getting acclaim. Long overdue, rly.

Pointless trivia. But I just realized that the film was scored by Tom Holkenborg. For whatever reason, he didn't want to use "Junkie XL" for this score. Whatever, it's his call, I support him either way. Just thought it was interesting. So, if you're looking for the JL score, don't be thrown off by seeing Tom Holkenborg rather than the Junkie XL stage name.

(I'll probably always think of him as Junkie XL tho)

I've gone through the score and these stand out so far:

A Hunter Gathers
The Provenance of Something Gathered
We Do This Together
Superman Rising, Pt 1 / A Book of Hours
Flight Is Our Nature
And the Lion-Earth Did Roar, Pt 1
Superman Rising, Pt 2 / Immovable
An Eternal Reoccurrence to Change
The Crew At Warpower
Batman, A Duty To Fight / To See
Batman, A Invocation To Heal / To Be Seen

If you're daunted by the track list, I recommend starting with these first.

'The Provenance of Something Gathered' is the best simple, straightforward incarnation of the new Batman theme from the film itself, when Batman jumps down to meet Gordon on the rooftop. It has the more hopeful thing going on that Tom wanted but still dark enough for my tastes. After that, the suite 'Batman, A Invocation To Heal / To Be Seen' is my pick because the first half has a broodiness akin to the BvS Batman theme from 'Men Are Still Good'.

I prefer Zimmer's sound in direct comparison, but Tom has delivered something much more suitable from what we had.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 19 Sep  2020, 02:26
Holkenborg mentioned that the MOS and WW themes will be heard in the Snyder cut, while all of the other characters will have new themes. Surprisingly, that includes Batman. I guess the BvS score really was indicative of his character arc in the film.

My guess was correct:

Quote from: Tom Holkenborg
A question asked by many; why did you do a new batman theme? The book was closed on the tormented past in bvs. Here there is a new day! A new day? New music!

#RestoreTheSnyderVerse #JusticeLeagueSnyderCut #justiceleaguescore

https://www.twitter.com/Junkie_XL/status/1372721008801583109

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 20 Mar  2021, 01:56
'The Provenance of Something Gathered' is the best simple, straightforward incarnation of the new Batman theme from the film itself, when Batman jumps down to meet Gordon on the rooftop.

'Things Fall Apart' and 'Long Division' are other uses of the new theme which I failed to mention. I'm getting a feel of the atmosphere and I'm liking it. I could see it working in a hypothetical solo film just fine.

The guitar work, as example is heard in 'We Do This Together' from 25 seconds to 40 seconds, is applied to Batman as well. I wouldn't call it a theme but a statement of intent. Something really different in terms of the character's musical history and reminds me of the Come Together trailer.