Batman-Online.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59c4Lfpii9w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59c4Lfpii9w)

Watched this the other night.

Folks, I've done horrible things to other people in my time. Nothing illegal, you understand. But still horrible things. The guilt of it stays with you.

Still, at least I'm not Bob Kane. Maybe I've done lousy things but I've never even come close to being as big an a-hole as Kane was. Ripping Finger off is the least of what Kane did to the guy when all's said and done.

I watched the film too, and it's a must see for all Batman fans.

Bob Kane was a lowlife. As we all know, Batman is simply not his sole creation and the documentary really rams that point home. Bob had his eyes on the money and that's it. It's one thing to treat enemies this way, but co-collaborators? Kane didn't just rip off Finger. He destroyed his life. Kane knew what he did and he kept repeating the same old lie for the rest of his life.

As Bill himself said on a recording, "I was a ghost, I really was. It wasn't until later that they found out I was the writer and Bob Kane wasn't the writer. Bob Kane was using me as a kind of tool all this time to bolster his own pay check."

That sums the situation up right there. Everything good about the character came from Bill. Batman, Robin, The Joker, Catwoman, The Riddler, Penguin, Scarecrow, Commissioner Gordon, Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Gotham City, The Dark Knight nickname, The Batmobile, the Bat Cave and Batman's origin simply wouldn't exist without Bill Finger.

Just comprehend that for a moment, and that Bob Kane got all the credit for so long. Other people did the work and Bob Kane put his name on it. He had nothing worthwhile to offer. He was a sham.

Mr Finger, I salute you. You're the real Dark Knight.

Well, I could look the other way about it back in 1939. Nobody had any reason to believe Batman would still be in print by 1945. The odds of that were pretty bad. Hand on heart, I think Kane thought he was screwing Finger out of a few hundred bucks, tops. And that was still huge money in the 30's. But even back then, nobody retired on what Kane started off earning from Batman.

But by about the late 40's, it's obvious that Batman has legs. This character is bigger than either of them ever envisioned. And the right thing to do probably would've been renegotiating his contract with DC (or NPP, really) to include Finger. Any hackjob lawyer could've knocked that out by lunch time.

When you start getting into the 60's and Kane is getting rich... yeah, it's definitely time now for Finger to get his due.

But the fact that Finger died in some crappy New York apartment alone, penniless, unknown and barely employed is just inexcusable.

I remember hearing the rumors about Bill Finger when I was a kid. So a lot of this stuff isn't new to me. But the extent to which Kane went to rewrite history was a major eye-opener.

I usually don't get up in arms when people make lousy deals. Because they're the ones who made them. But Finger was excluded from the negotiations and Kane, the one guy who knew exactly what was going on and could've changed it any time he wanted, never lifted a finger to help.

Inexcusable.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 12 May  2017, 20:17
But the fact that Finger died in some crappy New York apartment alone, penniless, unknown and barely employed is just inexcusable.

I remember hearing the rumors about Bill Finger when I was a kid. So a lot of this stuff isn't new to me. But the extent to which Kane went to rewrite history was a major eye-opener.

I usually don't get up in arms when people make lousy deals. Because they're the ones who made them. But Finger was excluded from the negotiations and Kane, the one guy who knew exactly what was going on and could've changed it any time he wanted, never lifted a finger to help.

Pretty much. This is like Lance Armstrong cheating his way to seven consecutive titles and suing everyone who threatens to tell the truth. The story Kane sold to the public needs to be exposed more often because it's just not right. Finger simply didn't have the opportunity to make any form of deal because Kane got in first. Kane got talking to the higher ups, spun his lies and it exploded from there. I mean, check out this insult Kane gave Finger in death:

"Now that my long-time friend and collaborator is gone, I must admit that Bill never received the fame and recognition he deserved. He was an unsung hero ... I often tell my wife, if I could go back fifteen years, before he died, I would like to say. 'I'll put your name on it now. You deserve it.'"

Kane was NEVER going to say this while Finger was alive.

Bob Kane's contribution to Batman amounts to this:

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.crackedcdn.com%2Fphpimages%2Fpersonalexperience%2F9%2F3%2F4%2F414934_v1.jpg&hash=0105bceb8e2f23aaa45a7904bca983ba9654176a)

Finger created the character and his world from there.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.postimg.org%2Fjsdk5q6ot%2Ffinger_kane2.jpg&hash=f07d09233dc8ffbb47a9d1fa35fc8ad8b2d5c7fa)

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.postimg.org%2Fcnvqwozfh%2Ffinger_kane1.jpg&hash=30a5584674e1b3f0beafdfd33194bdc7ae7f944a)

Far be it from me to speak ill of the dead, but Bob Kane was clearly not a man of high moral character. Here he is shafting Jerry Robinson (from the 3:15 mark):


To quote Alexander Knox: "What a dick."

Kane only ever had hearsay and the fact his name was listed as creator as his proof.

It makes you wonder what Stan Lee thinks of Kane these days.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 15 May  2017, 00:42It makes you wonder what Stan Lee thinks of Kane these days.

Not to derail the topic, but I'm not sure how much moral authority Lee has on this subject. While I certainly don't buy the idea that Kirby played any major role in Spider-Man's creation, I do think Kirby had a leg to stand on in a lot of cases.

I've wondered if Lee didn't hear the truth about Kane, slap himself over the head and say "Why didn't I think of that?"

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 15 May  2017, 00:42
It makes you wonder what Stan Lee thinks of Kane these days.

Here's a more recent video where he discusses Kane with Frank Miller.


Off topic, but is anyone else concerned about Miller? He looks older than Lee in this clip. Here's a picture of him taken at the Sin City 2 premiere when he was just 57 years old:


I hope he's all right.

Yeah, apparently he's not doing too well. Rumor has it that the main reason DC moved ahead with this recent Dark Knight thing is precisely because Miller is in bad shape and they wanted to help him pay his medical bills. So they green-lit a new Dark Knight thing in case he ended up needing it.

I have no clue what happened to him. It's like he aged thirty years in just ten years. You can watch the extras from the Daredevil DVD and Miller seems mostly okay. But he didn't look like that or sound like that even just a few years later. Weird.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 15 May  2017, 16:18

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 15 May  2017, 00:42
It makes you wonder what Stan Lee thinks of Kane these days.

Here's a more recent video where he discusses Kane with Frank Miller.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW3sNIVmzGc

Thanks. "Bob, stop stealing story ideas from me. We're friends, get your own ideas" says it all.

Bob clearly got an enormous thrill out of telling his 'I created Batman' lie.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 15 May  2017, 18:12
Yeah, apparently he's not doing too well. Rumor has it that the main reason DC moved ahead with this recent Dark Knight thing is precisely because Miller is in bad shape and they wanted to help him pay his medical bills. So they green-lit a new Dark Knight thing in case he ended up needing it.

I haven't read the Master Race series properly yet. I'm hoping they release a collected volume with everything included down the line. Nothing is going to compare with the original Dark Knight Returns, but apparently the Master Race isn't that bad.

I think it's true when they say artists are at their peak when they're younger. Their brains are firing on all cylinders and they have a point to prove. The young man wants to get his name out there and show his full potential. After success happens, it's human nature to become complacent or simply believe your own press. Or you simply feel like you've already said all you wanted. Michael Keaton alluded to this when he considered doing a sequel to Batman (1989).

He thought there was a risk of copying what he already did, so he decided to take the new project on from a completely fresh set of eyes. Creating things is a very mental exercise, and that's why the sequel is rarely better than the original.

In the case of comic artists... well, it's hit and miss. I don't think time was all that kind to Marshall Rogers or Jim Aparo.

Then again, Norm Breyfogle was kicking all the @$$ before he had that stroke so what do I know?

There's something to it though. I honestly don't think John Romita, Jr ever really recovered from The Man Without Fear, written by Miller. If you look at Junior's early stuff on, say, Spider-Man or Iron Man or even the X-Men, he shows an already strong command of the form and two (possibly three) tons of potential.

But something happened with TMWF, where his art went off the deep end and never really recovered the trajectory it had before.

That's the bad news. The good news is that he does Miller's style better than Miller's done Miller's style since the early 90's. So the work isn't "bad". It's just not a very different style than where he originally started. Age (or something) was no benefit to Junior.

My view though is that Curt Swan was never not on top form during his Superman days. Even into the 80's, his work is phenomenal. So age wasn't detrimental to Swan.

I just saw this great documentary, it's really great to see Bill finally getting credit for everything he created.
And for BvS: Dawn of Justice they changed it to "Batman created by Bob Kane WITH Bill Finger."
And even in the theater is was thinking it should be AND Bill Finger.

They changed it later on now it's "Batman created by Bob Kane and Bill Finger."

Finally after all these years.

Truly loved Batman and Bill.  A beautiful and poignant documentary about the importance of acknowledging a work's creators.  A few moments had me pretty damn well choked up.