Batman-Online.com

Looks like Joss Whedon is going to be part of the DCEU.  He will be making a solo Batgirl movie:

http://www.superherohype.com/news/394175-breaking-joss-whedon-to-direct-batgirl-movie (http://www.superherohype.com/news/394175-breaking-joss-whedon-to-direct-batgirl-movie)

Hmm, I don't know about you guys but I'm not sure I want to give my money to Whedon.  If anyone's ever read his Tweets (the one where he attacked Nicole Kidman and compared her to a Thunderbirds puppet simply for stating that the US had to move on and accept Trump as their President was particularly mean and unwarranted), you'll probably agree that he's got a few screws loose...

Then again, I know how loyal, even rabid, some of you guys are with respect to the DCEU.  Good for you, I guess.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Thu, 30 Mar  2017, 17:48
Looks like Joss Whedon is going to be part of the DCEU.

This was unexpected.

01- I am boycotting Joss Whedon.
02- I am committed to seeing all things Batman-related in the DCEU.

I cannot continue doing both, it seems. One or the other will have to be violated if he directs this movie.

It would appear that I have found myself in a dilemma.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 31 Mar  2017, 02:01
This was unexpected.

01- I am boycotting Joss Whedon.
02- I am committed to seeing all things Batman-related in the DCEU.

I cannot continue doing both, it seems. One or the other will have to be violated if he directs this movie.

It would appear that I have found myself in a dilemma.

Sure, it expands Batfleck's supporting cast, but I'm not jumping out of my seat to see a Batgirl movie. Especially one directed by this individual. Some things you can forgive and forget. Some things you just can't.

Whedon likened Ivanka Trump to a dog - I guess he only only supports women if they share his views. He also said her husband was Voldemort in training. Whedon said speaker Paul Ryan should be killed by a rhino because that would be funny. He called Vice President Pence a 'loathsome swine'. And of course he mocked Kidman and then said the democratically elected president 'cannot be allowed a term in office.'

The guy represents everything wrong with the unhinged left. What do these comments achieve except putting him on the receiving end of a backlash?

Honestly, Batgirl isn't a big deal for me. I didn't expect it or ask for it.

Girlbusters
Ocean's 8
Gotham City Sirens
Batgirl

Notice a trend here?

What would Whedon, this so called feminist, say and do if he found out Batgirl voted Republican? I guess he'd say she betrayed the sisterhood and should be killed, because that'd be funny. I just don't like the guy and it's a shame the DCEU is looking to get him to direct one of their films.

Interesting choice if true, a quippy Batgirl could work. The DCEU continues to give women - both good and bad - the spotlight.

I like the first Avengers movie, but Whedon seems like an idiot. I thought he would've learned some humility given the fact that he was chased out of Twitter for a while after SJWs condemned him for the way he wrote Black Widow in Age of Ultron.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 31 Mar  2017, 10:58
Interesting choice if true, a quippy Batgirl could work. The DCEU continues to give women - both good and bad - the spotlight.

I like the first Avengers movie, but Whedon seems like an idiot. I thought he would've learned some humility given the fact that he was chased out of Twitter for a while after SJWs condemned him for the way he wrote Black Widow in Age of Ultron.

Indeed.

But this is a man who claims to be a 'feminist', whilst body-shaming actresses and attacking women simply for who their father is.  Maybe it's just me, but I've never believed that calling a woman a 'dog' is particularly compatible with feminism.

Still, I'm curious what Whedon makes of former 'Buffy' and 'Firefly' colleagues/stars like Sarah Michelle Gellar and Adam Baldwin, seeing as both of them are vocal Republicans.  Admittedly, SMG did not support Trump, but she is still clearly a political conservative and thus everything Whedon regularly attacks (as most of you know, I am also a liberal, but it's not Whedon's political views I object to, many of which I share, but the mean-spirited, nasty, and hypocritical way he expresses himself, particularly on social media - it seems he is the essence of the 'illiberal liberal' who cannot countenance anyone who doesn't share the exact same POV as himself).

Hmmm ... sounds like we're going to get a Marvel Studios Batgirl movie.

A snarky, quippy, spunky Barbara Gordon battling, oh I don't know, Killer Moth or somebody, all while the film evoking the idea of lightheartedness and fun!

Which really doesn't make a ton of narrative sense if we're still in a DCEU that started with MOS, and was further elaborated upon with a decidedly Frank Miller DKR influence with, BvS. To me, a Batgirl movie based within the DCEU would not be looking at the New52 stuff, along with the addition of Whedonisms (Oh boy!), but rather, it would revolve around Babs as Oracle training the new Batgirl (probably Cassandra Cain) with flashbacks to Babs as the first Batgirl.

Oh well. Outside of his Astonishing X-Men run, I can't say I find Whedon anyone to get overly excited about.

See, the thing about that is that the Babs Batgirl book from just before Rebirth was supposedly pretty cool. As you say, a fun and relatively light superhero title.

The DCEU looks to be taking an overall lighter direction, if the Justice League trailer is anything to go by. A lighter, spunkier, fun Batgirl movie could be a good fit with where the DCEU is headed.

Well, WB deciding that the DCEU would benefit by going with a lighter, fun & less controversial direction following all the complaining, was to be expected. Just how much lighter and fun the DCEU decides to go with in spite of the more serious/darker/somber foundation that was established by MOS/BvS is something of a concern. This was something the New52 version of Batgirl didn't have to be concerned with. Cause the overall direction of the New52 continuity/history was all over the place.

Wonder Woman seems to be keeping the faith, while JL is a wait and see. If anything, the emulating of the Marvel Studios product is (hopefully) kept to a minimum. A Whedon Babs "fun" Batgirl movie seems anything but.

Not interested in anything Whedon has to say about anything and not excited for the movie itself but, looking at the bigger picture, if it helps the cause of the DCEU, then it's a welcome addition.

It's Batgirl.  It's related to Batman.  I'm a Batman fan (that's why I'm a member of this site for goodness sake).  So, yeah, whatever I may think of Joss Whedon, I'm interested in seeing this.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue,  4 Apr  2017, 18:00
It's Batgirl.  It's related to Batman.  I'm a Batman fan (that's why I'm a member of this site for goodness sake).  So, yeah, whatever I may think of Joss Whedon, I'm interested in seeing this.

It goes without saying I'll see it, I rarely if ever refuse to see Batman (or other superhero and big blockbuster) movies, and never pay attention to rotten scores. But there's a difference between paying a theater ticket, or video on demand and jyk (Unless a friend drags me as the card carrying Bat-guy, but it's usually the other way around with Batmovies).

I honestly don't give a sh*t what his political leanings are. People can do and think whatever they want. I can separate the "art from the artist".

With that said, I think he's a great director and a good fit. I think it's a great choice, and it can only help the DCEU overall. So I'll be there on opening night, and I'm very excited to see Batgirl on the big screen. Bring on more of the Bat-family. I'm all for it.

Quote from: Travesty on Sat,  8 Apr  2017, 23:56I honestly don't give a sh*t what his political leanings are. People can do and think whatever they want. I can separate the "art from the artist".

Does it bother you that OJ Simpson isn't likely to appear in any more movies? Speaking of which, seen any good Roman Polanski movies lately? How about Victor Salva?

Or let's go the other way with it, how 'bout that Mel Gibson, huh?

You're comparing a rapist and a potential murder, to someone who has a different political opinion to you. I think that's a pretty hyperbolic comparison. I wouldn't go and support Bill Cosby, by going to one of his stand-up shows, but I wouldn't mind seeing Bill Maher, even if I don't agree with him on everything politically.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 10 Apr  2017, 07:02Does it bother you that OJ Simpson isn't likely to appear in any more movies? Speaking of which, seen any good Roman Polanski movies lately? How about Victor Salva?

Or let's go the other way with it, how 'bout that Mel Gibson, huh?

Polanski's Carnage from a few years back is excellent.  And I'm still a huge fan of Salva's underrated Jeepers Creepers films.

As for Gibson, I saw Hacksaw Ridge last month with a couple of members of my family.  That was a great night at the pictures.

Then again, it's now 23 years since I last saw OJ star in anything.  But "American Crime Story: The People Versus O.J. Simpson" featuring Cuba Gooding Jr., as 'The Juice', is superb, and I've heard that the documentary "O.J.: Made in America" is very good.

Quote from: Travesty on Mon, 10 Apr  2017, 21:02You're comparing a rapist and a potential murder, to someone who has a different political opinion to you.

Utter nonsense. I am simply attempting to understand the contours of your opposition. Where does it begin and where does it end?

Quote from: Travesty on Mon, 10 Apr  2017, 21:02I think that's a pretty hyperbolic comparison.

There was no comparison expressed or implied. Again, I was trying to figure out what you accept as compared to what you reject.

Quote from: Travesty on Mon, 10 Apr  2017, 21:02I wouldn't go and support Bill Cosby, by going to one of his stand-up shows, but I wouldn't mind seeing Bill Maher, even if I don't agree with him on everything politically.

Cosby, Clinton, Maher, O'Reilly, I try to avoid all of the major Bills.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 11 Apr  2017, 18:28Cosby, Clinton, Maher, O'Reilly, I try to avoid all of the major Bills.

Fair enough.  I'm no fan of any of those guys either (and I'm pleased to see you pretty much cover the political spectrum with those various names).

But I wouldn't discount all Bills.  The late Bill Paxton was a decent guy.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 11 Apr  2017, 18:28
There was no comparison expressed or implied. Again, I was trying to figure out what you accept as compared to what you reject.

"utter nonsense/nothing was expressed or implied"? lol, ok.

Looks like I'll stay away from anything Joss Whedon related on this forum. I'm sorry my pitchforks aren't as sharp as yours. Goddamn!

Quote from: Travesty on Tue, 11 Apr  2017, 20:15Looks like I'll stay away from anything Joss Whedon related on this forum. I'm sorry my pitchforks aren't as sharp as yours. Goddamn!

There's no need for that. I am simply attempting to understand where you're coming from. Evidently you find certain things more acceptable than I do. All I want is to make conversation about those things.

Whedon's out.

QuoteJoss Whedon is saying goodbye to DC Entertainment heroine Batgirl.

Whedon, the creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer among other pop culture touchstones, is exiting the Warner Bros. feature project, which he was writing and was slated to direct.

"Batgirl is such an exciting project, and Warners/DC such collaborative and supportive partners, that it took me months to realize I really didn't have a story," Whedon told The Hollywood Reporter in a statement. Referring to DC president Geoff Johns and Warner Bros. Picture Group president Toby Emmerich, Whedon added, "I'm grateful to Geoff and Toby and everyone who was so welcoming when I arrived, and so understanding when I...uh, is there a sexier word for 'failed?'"

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/joss-whedon-exits-batgirl-movie-1087384

That's a pleasant surprise. I thought he was going to be a big player in their future projects?

I wonder if he's saying goodbye to DC Entertainment for good?

Perhaps his role was strictly reshooting parts of Justice League? They further justified his involvement with Justice League by saying he was going to be writing and directing Batgirl. Which has miraculously fallen over. Hmm. Interesting.

Quote from: Joss Whedon
"I'm grateful to Geoff and Toby and everyone who was so welcoming when I arrived, and so understanding when I...uh, is there a sexier word for 'failed?'"

What an idiot. Whedon seriously needs to drop the Valley girl act, it's getting pathetic. I had sympathy for him a couple of years ago because I thought the criticism against his writing for Black Widow in Avengers: Age of Ultron was uncalled for and misunderstood. But his conduct over the last few months following JL's release has pissed me off.

Last year, WB told the entire world that Whedon would come in and finish the film as a favour for Snyder because of tragic circumstances. I'm now having a hard time believing this is the case because Whedon's disrespectful conduct in the last couple of months is giving away a negative impression:

-He liked tweets criticising Steppenwolf. Utterly distasteful when you were paid to help finish the film as a 'favour', as we were led to believe by the studio.

-He NEVER promoted JL on Twitter at all. But I did see him praise the 'masterpiece' Thor Ragnarok, which judging by the few scenes I watched from that movie, it looked like an offensive spoof on the character and a complete abandonment from the Nordic MCU hero we were introduced to back in 2011. But I digress.

-He makes this idiotic quip as quoted above, as if he officially directed JL. You know what? Those rumours about Snyder being phased out might've been true after all, because apparently, he and his photographer Clay Enos have allegedly liked the news to Whedon leaving Batgirl:
https://twitter.com/TheBatSkeptic/status/966893453081690114

Now to be fair, it could be Photoshopped, but who knows?

One more thing: isn't it ironic, that for all the accusations Snyder gets for being 'misogynistic', it's Whedon the one who gets accused by his own ex-wife for treating women badly, and had that Flash falling down on WW joke? Mind you, I don't find that scene offensive or funny, I'm just trying to make a point.

TLDR: good riddance.

I honestly can't take anybody's words seriously, when to comes to the DCEU anymore. Way too much lying, PR spin, deception, early announcements that get canned, etc. It's getting beyond annoying trying to follow these movies, now. One second they announce a new movie, 3 months later they cancel it. One second they have a director excited about doing the movie, the next they drop out. One second we hear how great a movie is from early reactions, the next everyone hates it. I mean, they even used Snyder's tragedy, as PR spin to showcase how much they care for him, and we find out later he was fired before it even happened. etc, etc, etc....


I'm not even that mad or sad about Whedon's departure, I just can't take all of these blatant lies, that we find out about months later.

Quote from: Travesty on Fri, 23 Feb  2018, 21:17
I'm not even that mad or sad about Whedon's departure, I just can't take all of these blatant lies, that we find out about months later.

I think you'll find on social media that the majority of DC fans are delighted by the news about Whedon.

I don't give a damn about WB, they're just a company who only cares about money like anybody else. But I can't believe the lack of professionalism by all parties involved.

Now that filming is underway and Michael Keaton is confirmed to star, in addition to his return in The Flash, mere are some set photos taken of a mural featuring Batman and Robin.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIxGB98XoAwKYIV?format=jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIw-PKpXwAcawGf?format=jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIw-PKuXsAYEZ2y?format=jpg)

A close up on the Robin shot reveals this is traced directly from the variant cover of the Robin 80th Anniversary 100 Page Super Spectacular comic.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIxhko9WQAIg3-4?format=jpg)

So Drake Winston's Robin has been whitewashed, eh? Either that, or we're led to believe Keaton's Batman had multiple Robins in the future. But if that's the case, why is one Robin more honoured than the others? If Tim Burton was going to have Robin in his third movie, his version would never look like the Pre-Crisis comic book character.

I made it clear before I don't like the direction of where The Flash and Batgirl is going. Not only I am concerned with the fate of Batfleck and other Snyderverse characters, I'm just as equally concerned with the Burtonverse stuff. Keaton living in the same world as JK Simmons' Commissioner Gordon breaks two continuities, and this movie will have to retcon or outright ignore the events of the Batman 89 comics. Whether you love or hate those comics, you gotta ask why would DC even bother to give Sam Hamm and Joe Quinones the green light if their comic book sequel to the Burton era was going to be retconned anyway?

I've already talked ad naueseum about issues in trying to merge Keaton into another timeline. Carrying over his history brings a lot of handicaps, because Joker and Penguin are dead. But if they are brought back to life, Nicholson and DeVito are too old to reprise their characters. That would mean other actors would have to play them. But even if they do that, you still have to make additional changes to the characters' backstories to fit into this Batgirl world, which would drift further away from the Burton continuity. Besides, where does this leave Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn? Do they seriously expect us to believe she had a relationship with another Joker other than Leto's?

Another question I have: is Michael Keaton even playing Tim Burton's Batman anymore? Is Burton, Sam Hamm, or Daniel Waters for that matter, involved in any of these productions from a consultation point of view?

This is yet another example of gross mismanagement by the spiteful, incompetent troublemakers in charge of WB. Unless drastic changes somehow happen, I have no interest seeing Batgirl and The Flash whatsoever.

Dylan O'Brien is rumored to be Robin/Nightwing for the DCEU. Batgirl is supposed to set up his movie.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed, 12 Jan  2022, 16:04
Dylan O'Brien is rumored to be Robin/Nightwing for the DCEU. Batgirl is supposed to set up his movie.

If the DCEU is instantly expanding the roster to Batgirl and Nightwing via storytelling convenience I think it's more likely Reeves keeps his universe contained to just Batman, or at the very least introduces Robin. He has spin-off shows to help expand and flesh out his world, but I imagine the main meat of the story will be contained in the films. And the best guess is there will be three. Even if that moment is saved for the last film, I'd like to see Robin in the suit and fighting. If used, I don't think the franchise should run away from the true spirit of the character any longer, as was the case with Blake.

Whoever is in charge of the Batgirl film news Twitter page must be working for the studio, because they have access to all of these photos of movie props. The most ridiculous of all is this picture that suggests Keaton's new continuity will borrow some aspects from BvS.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJA3c6eXEAYhdtD?format=jpg)

You gotta love the spelling mistake on Lex LUTHOR's name there.  ::)

If that wasn't stupid enough, I heard a rumour suggesting that Keaton's Robin has died. Just like Batfleck had a dead Robin in BvS. Then again, I've also heard another rumour he had multiple Robins over the years.

Another rumour I've heard is the producers wanted Affleck to be in Batgirl but he turned the offer down , so the petty dickheads decided to use some of his continuity and merge it with Keaton out of spite. It's bad enough Keaton isn't playing the Burtonverse Batman anymore, they have to mesh another Batman continuity with a new one? This is going to confuse a lot of people.

I've seen more photos of other magazine props containing Easter eggs of Hugo Strange, Killer Moth and the Court of Owls, but my anticipation for Batgirl is so low I can't even be bothered to share them.

The only good thing about this costume is the cowl. Everything else looks crap. I know this is based on how Batgirl looks in the comics these days, but like nearly every costume in all of DC movies nowadays, it looks so cheap. So many people have compared it to the CW, and with good reason.

Unsurprisingly, I saw one disingenuous comment calling people criticising the costume sexist because it lacked of a bra cup and corset. Because of course the criticism has to be fueled by sexism, it couldn't possibly be because there are a lot of people who think costume looks low budget. Expect more people like her - AND the studio - to go along with this narrative to push back against any backlash for this movie. Which is a recurring theme among film discourse within the last five years.

I say the B&R and early 2000s Birds of Prey costume looks better because at least it looked high budget for its time. Compared to this new costume, they still do.

The Batgirl directors must be sensitive to the criticism because they posted this picture on Instagram.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJKHANCWUAgkVeA?format=jpg)

How convenient they happened to release the Batgirl image on the day when Ray Fisher called Geoff Johns a racist and #BoycottWB was trending on Twitter...but oh well, I've already spoken enough about that. Maybe the next time Fisher and the fans express their distaste, Warner Butchers can release a first look of Keaton in the Batsuit in their next attempt at damage control.

Speaking of Keaton, this Batgirl reveal is yet another indicator this will be a new timeline, because this costume certainly would look out of place in the Burtonverse. If Bruce Wayne is still active as Batman in this timeline, let's hope they reuse the Bob Ringwood costume instead of redesigning something cheaper.

So, so bad.

Updated mural.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJWAyIqXoAEPQPq?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJWAyIpXoAE86MZ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

Huh. So, is Anarky going to be in this thing? Must have missed that announcement.

Here are some location pics. The Gotham Globe logo on the sign in this first image matches the one in B89 and BR.


These next images evoke the wintery Gotham of Batman Returns.


Here are some more pics of Grace in the costume. The release of the first official costume pic was clearly timed in anticipation of these appearing online.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJaJjWZXEAQ-3ej?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 18 Jan  2022, 17:32
Huh. So, is Anarky going to be in this thing? Must have missed that announcement.

I really like Anarky, especially the early version from the comics. His use in Arkham Origins is excellent, and Beware The Batman isn't too bad either. I like that he's a young kid, but could be assumed to be an adult, thus being a mirror to Robin in a way. The themes of Anarky are highly relevant to the now: the power of propaganda as entertainment, Government being owned by corporations, believing in choice, the fat cats at the top and and people not thinking or questioning anything. The best villains are characters you can somewhat agree with.

From Anarky's POV, Batman should be able to see the problems as well as him. But when he doesn't, or simply disagrees with his methods, Batman becomes just another adult bully telling people what to do. Really interesting dynamic. So if Anarky ever does get used, hopefully they can exploit these types of themes.

As for Batgirl, these images do pique my curiosity in terms of aesthetics. It seems like they're going to some effort to create a Burtonesque atmosphere with the snow and certain iconography. I believe this movie will effectively serve as Keaton's main Beyond project, mentoring his replacement. Throwing in some flashbacks to Keaton's decision to retire would be a wise decision, either in this movie or The Flash.

I think this is the best image of the Batgirl costume so far. I imagine the darker lighting here is indicative of how it will appear on screen.


Located among Gotham's various shops and businesses is Avant-Garde, which appears to be an art gallery.


This could be the perfect place to plant a Vicki Vale Easter egg.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 19 Jan  2022, 16:46
Located among Gotham's various shops and businesses is Avant-Garde, which appears to be an art gallery.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FFnwxC3F/avant-garde.png)

This could be the perfect place to plant a Vicki Vale Easter egg.

(https://d3dfsf9oc1ojzp.cloudfront.net/original/4X/6/d/8/6d822f797903fc92b2434050505866a83eb307ee.gif)

As always, nice catch.

I said many times Warner Butchers will continue to use identity politics as a PR shield to cover up bad PR surrounding Cyborg and JL and other cultural issues, and that's exactly what they are doing with this casting:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture/591443-batgirl-casts-first-openly-trans-character-to-appear

Expect anti-SJWs to complain Batgirl is going woke, when they are too stupid to realise Warner is using such dirty tactics to avoid taking any accountability for their gross mismanagement.

Don't have access to them right now, but be on the lookout for pics from the Batgirl set of Keaton as BATMAN. Yes, as BATMAN.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLb85A2XwAMZXuA?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLb85A3XEAAh4zG?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLb85A4WUAMfRH7?format=jpg&name=small)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLb85BqWYAgdVHs?format=jpg&name=small)

The obvious is confirmed. I see the yellow oval, and the overall suit seems Returns influenced despite the low quality of the images. I'm hoping an offical still of Keaton is released for The Flash some time after The Batman's release.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 18 Jan  2022, 23:33
I believe this movie will effectively serve as Keaton's main Beyond project, mentoring his replacement. Throwing in some flashbacks to Keaton's decision to retire would be a wise decision, either in this movie or The Flash.

Makes me wonder if this is a flashback or Keaton does in fact continue fighting crime at this stage of his career.

Am I the only one who smells a rat here? The "spy" photos are remarkably decent quality in terms of details, they show just enough detail to get people talking, the camera angle never changes, the overall good quality never changes, nothing too spoilery is revealed, the color is gone (presumably to give it an "authentic" faux spy photo tone). Someone snapped those photos in full view of the crew and nobody noticed? Seems odd.

I'll just say it. I think the studio engineered this "leak". We're back to the bad old days of the 2000's where production assistants would release "spy" photos they took themselves to approved outlets to drum up interest in the movie.

Other studios seem capable of keeping details about their productions completely under wraps even when they do location shooting. So, it's funny that somehow Batgirl and Flash photos keep getting leaked out of "secure" location shooting, eh? Even more convenient that many of the leaks highlight Keaton's involvement. Big coincidence, I'm sure.

It might be that I'm getting cynical in my old age. But nothing about this feels remotely organic. But it just feels like some hack is deliberately releasing new DCEU stuff every time news about The Batman and the Reevesverse gets traction. The marketing push for TB's theatrical release started last week so the timing of these set photos has me wondering.

I'm always cynical. Anything else is just being plain dumb. I'm sure it was leaked out. I'm not willing to say it's designed to hurt The Batman, though. Based on recent moves such as the early press screenings and having no review embargo at all, I think the studio has the opinion that movie is too big to fail, and they'd be right. I'd say they're setting the stage for the coming year. A brief sizzle reel was released the other day showing The Flash, Shazam and the like. Batman is the biggest hook with any of these projects so that's what they're always going to lead with. Especially if Keaton has appearances in all of those productions, leading in to their Justice League project, as I think Silver rightly pieced together.

Here is a video. It is believed this is part of the flash back scenes that we know are being done for the movie. It is possible that Babs meets Batman as a kid.
https://youtu.be/laV1v69Hm4k

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 13 Feb  2022, 03:28Makes me wonder if this is a flashback or Keaton does in fact continue fighting crime at this stage of his career.

It does seem likely that the Burton Batman will be retired or semi-retired at the beginning of The Flash, and that the other heroes will have to persuade him to return to active duty. I think a flashback depicting why he retired will probably occur in The Flash and will include the scene of the bloody batsuit from the teaser trailer.


I'm expecting something similar to Batman's first fight against the Mutant Leader in The Dark Knight Returns, or the prologue scene in the first episode of Batman Beyond. Bruce probably got messed up by one his foes (Billy Dee Two-Face? Bane? Ra's al Ghul? The Mutant Leader?) and realised he couldn't cut it anymore, so he hung up the cowl. Or maybe he screwed up in another way and someone got hurt in the crossfire, similar to how the Earth-Two Batman burnt his batsuit and called it quits after his wife Selina got killed (although he still later returned for one final costumed battle).


Keaton's character in Batgirl will presumably be the new DCEU Batman – the one that will likely be introduced at the end of The Flash – rather than the Burtonverse version. The relationship between the two should be similar to the relationship between the Pre-Crisis Earth-One Batman in the comics and his Post-Crisis New Earth counterpart. Certain things carried over from the Pre-Crisis era into the Post-Crisis canon (e.g. the Ra's al Ghul stories) while other things didn't (the Catwoman stories), and similarly I expect certain things from the Burton continuity will carry over into the new DCEU timeline while still allowing the filmmakers the freedom to alter or retcon other things. For example, the new DCEU Batman might have saved Vicki Vale from the Joker at the Flugelheim Museum, but in this timeline the Joker might still be alive and might not be the killer of Bruce's parents. I'm just theorising, but I think this is how things might pan out.

Regarding these images of Keaton being suited up in Batgirl, I speculated in another thread recently that the film might feature a prologue or flashback scene showing a digitally de-aged Keaton fighting Brendan Fraser's Firefly alongside Robin when he was still in his prime (i.e. not long after he defeated Penguin). Maybe Gotham Knight's correct about a young Barbara witnessing this battle, and perhaps the memory of this experience later inspires her to become Batgirl. The fact J K Simmons has red hair in the latest set pics...


...would further support the idea that this is a flashback scene.


The rumours circulating about Keaton's future in the DCEU would seem to indicate that his Batman is still at least semi-active, with some claiming that he will lead the Justice League in the next JLA movie. If so, I would again cite the Earth-Two Batman as a precedent for what they might be doing in the DCEU. That version of the character entered a semi-retired state during his winter years, effectively passing responsibility for the protection of Gotham to Dick Grayson and his daughter, the Huntress. Yet he still occasionally donned his suit and went back into action, even when he was well into his sixties.


Perhaps that's what Keaton's Batman is doing now – taking a backseat regarding Gotham, and allowing Nightwing and Batgirl to handle that side of things, while concentrating his own efforts on larger planetary threats that involve the Justice League.

I remember Keaton commenting on the backlash to his casting when he was promoting the 1989 film, saying that he thought it was "silly" that fans cared so deeply about the character and that he would often experience a feeling of absurdity when on set in the costume. Now compare those remarks with this more recent quote about his latest Batman films:

Quote"What's really interesting is how much more I got [Batman] when I went back and did him. I get this on a whole other level now. I totally respect it. I respect what people are trying to make. I never looked at it like, 'Oh, this is just a silly thing.' It was not a silly thing when I did Batman. But it has become a giant thing, culturally. It's iconic. So I have even more respect for it because what do I know? This is a big deal in the world to people. You've got to honor that and be respectful of that. Even I go, 'Jesus, this is huge.'"

https://www.indiewire.com/2021/08/michael-keaton-read-flash-script-three-times-understand-multiverse-1234658784/

It sounds like he's taking the role more seriously than he did when he was younger. Maybe the prestige surrounding the Nolan trilogy or Phoenix's performance in Joker altered his perception of the material and its potential. Whatever the reason, he sounds creatively charged about returning to the role, and I don't think he'd be doing these films if he didn't believe he could explore a fresh angle on the character. He really doesn't need to be making these movies at this stage of his career. Things are going well for him: he's just won his second Golden Globe and landed his sixth Screen Actors Guild Award nomination (it'll make his fourth win if he gets it), and he's got the Spider-Man franchise to help keep him in the popular limelight and bring in any extra cash he might need. I get the impression he's genuinely enthusiastic about these latest Batman films. Certainly more than he was about Batman Forever and perhaps even Batman Returns. Whether that enthusiasm will turn out to be justified or misplaced remains to be seen, but if nothing else I have faith that Keaton will try to safeguard the integrity of his character.

On the subject of Keaton's age, I happened to watch Martin Campbell's The Protégé (2021) a few weeks ago, and I was impressed by how much action he performs in it. He takes a backseat during the first half of the movie, but in the second half he has a ton of gunplay and fight scenes. I've seen Keaton in action movies before – One Good Cop, Desperate Measures, American Assassin, etc – but I think he does more action in The Protégé than in any of those other movies. Here's one of his fight scenes.


Obviously stunt doubles are employed here, but apparently Keaton still did most of the sequence himself. He's not jacked like Stallone, Van Damme or Gibson, but he's in decent shape and moves well for a man his age.



So I'm not too worried about how he'll handle the action as Batman. It'll be a lot easier for them to use stunt doubles when he's wearing the mask anyway, but after seeing The Protégé I'm hopeful that he'll perform at least some of the fighting himself.

Recently I've been thinking about all the comics featuring older versions of Batman: the Bronze Age Earth-Two comics, the Thomas Wayne Flashpoint Batman, the post-Flashpoint Thomas Wayne Earth 2 Batman, The Dark Knight Returns, Batman Beyond, Kingdom Come, Year 100 etc. There are many classic stories centred on the idea of Batman getting old that we'd never normally get to see adapted in live action because they keep rebooting the movies with a younger actor every few years. But now, with Keaton, we might finally get to see some of that material incorporated into the newest films.

If all we had was an aging Batman then I could understand fans being worried, but the fact we're getting a new young Batman as well – and by the looks of it, a very good one – means we'll have the best of both worlds. Over the next few years we'll have gritty, grounded stories featuring the young Battinson in his prime, and we'll have more fantastical adventures featuring the mature Bat-Keaton and his allies in the Justice League. If the new DCEU Batman films are bad, then we've always got Battinson and Reeves to fall back on. While I definitely have issues with the way WB is handling the DCEU, and I think there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about its upcoming films, I still have hope that the Keaton Batman aspect will turn out all right.

I'm surprised they haven't released an official image of him in the suit yet. Normally the studio would try to do that before set pics leaked. Perhaps there's a new trailer imminent that will include an official reveal?

Hmmmm, those are interesting spy pics.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 13 Feb  2022, 19:10
I get the impression he's genuinely enthusiastic about these latest Batman films. Certainly more than he was about Batman Forever and perhaps even Batman Returns. Whether that enthusiasm will turn out to be justified or misplaced remains to be seen, but if nothing else I have faith that Keaton will try to safeguard the integrity of his character.

I think he could see it as a victory lap before he does get too old and retires from acting. Age does have the tendency to make people nostalgic. If he's still known as Batman after doing two films 30 years ago, from his POV he may as well embrace the tag wholeheartedly as Adam West ultimately did.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 13 Feb  2022, 19:10
Recently I've been thinking about all the comics featuring older versions of Batman: the Bronze Age Earth-Two comics, the Thomas Wayne Flashpoint Batman, the post-Flashpoint Thomas Wayne Earth 2 Batman, The Dark Knight Returns, Batman Beyond, Kingdom Come, Year 100 etc. There are many classic stories centred on the idea of Batman getting old that we'd never normally get to see adapted in live action because they keep rebooting the movies with a younger actor every few years. But now, with Keaton, we might finally get to see some of that material incorporated into the newest films.

All very good stories. I'm ready to see the early years with Reeves, because while TDK Returns is my Batman Bible it has been overused. My preference does mostly rest in the later years of Batman's career, though. He's seen and done it all, accumulated a complete gallery of rogues, and has a lot more mental and physical scars. If they could reference the stories you've listed even in a brief way that would be excellent.

TDK Returns: Mutant Leader type fight
Beyond: Retired and mentoring replacements
Kingdom Come: Using a similar mech suit for battle
Year 100: 'That can't be Batman out there fighting crime after all these years'
Flashpoint: Moving on from lethality to be a purer hero and 'good man'

Here is video Batman and Gordon.
https://t.co/uhAfKshV6a

Here is a photo
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLpzlr_XMAAxQZ8?format=jpg&name=large)

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 13 Feb  2022, 19:10

If all we had was an aging Batman then I could understand fans being worried, but the fact we're getting a new young Batman as well – and by the looks of it, a very good one – means we'll have the best of both worlds. Over the next few years we'll have gritty, grounded stories featuring the young Battinson in his prime, and we'll have more fantastical adventures featuring the mature Bat-Keaton and his allies in the Justice League. If the new DCEU Batman films are bad, then we've always got Battinson and Reeves to fall back on. While I definitely have issues with the way WB is handling the DCEU, and I think there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about its upcoming films, I still have hope that the Keaton Batman aspect will turn out all right.

I'm surprised they haven't released an official image of him in the suit yet. Normally the studio would try to do that before set pics leaked. Perhaps there's a new trailer imminent that will include an official reveal?

Finally, some positivity here. I was starting to feel like I was the only person out of this community that dared to look on the bright side. Granted, others are entitled to their opinion, but some need to realize they've become a wet blanket.

I'm tremendously excited for the future of the DCEU specifically because of Keaton--granted, I think the DC movies have been on a generally upward trend since the release of Suicide Squad, even if that film could have been a lot better, every film since has been better than the absolute dumpster fire of BvS. I even enjoy the theatrical cut of JL, even if Whedon is a jerk. I have no excitement for Reeves' version as it looks to me to be even more watered-down than Nolan's trilogy, though I'll be there to see it and hope to be won over.

If you had told me a decade ago that not only would Keaton return to Batman--much less to return for a length of time and be at the heart of not-only a proper Bat family but also a DC universe? I'd have committed you to Arkham. I won't hold my breath for him being semi-retired--the idea that he'll get any more action after The Flash is too good to be true for me at the moment, but the idea of his Batman starting the Bat family because he's too old to do it by himself anymore makes a lot of sense for how he's always portrayed the character.

I do hope 89 and BR get more-or-less folded into the DCEU history--not only since they'd be the official start of the universe now, but also so it still feels like the same Batman as before. Even if it isn't and it's a new, amalgamated iteration, at least we get a send-off for the Batman we knew in The Flash. I prefer BF as the continuation of Burton's Batman for its resolution to his character and addressing his kills during the Burton flicks. However, getting a new Earth Keaton Bruce who either never killed or still went on a journey to be better makes me happy on the other end--while I never would write-off an entire performance for such a reason, I still have considerably come around on appreciating the no-kill code.

The best outcome for me is that 89 and BR still happened exactly, just presumably in a slightly more recent time frame and with Simmons as Gordon. Mention that Wayne eventually had the same BF epiphany about vengeance and he cleaned up his act, and then roll-on DCEU. I'm partial to the idea that Leto was a second, copycat Joker who came later--perhaps this would please his most ardent detractors.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 19:41

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 13 Feb  2022, 19:10

If all we had was an aging Batman then I could understand fans being worried, but the fact we're getting a new young Batman as well – and by the looks of it, a very good one – means we'll have the best of both worlds. Over the next few years we'll have gritty, grounded stories featuring the young Battinson in his prime, and we'll have more fantastical adventures featuring the mature Bat-Keaton and his allies in the Justice League. If the new DCEU Batman films are bad, then we've always got Battinson and Reeves to fall back on. While I definitely have issues with the way WB is handling the DCEU, and I think there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about its upcoming films, I still have hope that the Keaton Batman aspect will turn out all right.

I'm surprised they haven't released an official image of him in the suit yet. Normally the studio would try to do that before set pics leaked. Perhaps there's a new trailer imminent that will include an official reveal?

Finally, some positivity here. I was starting to feel like I was the only person out of this community that dared to look on the bright side. Granted, others are entitled to their opinion, but some need to realize they've become a wet blanket.

I'm tremendously excited for the future of the DCEU specifically because of Keaton--granted, I think the DC movies have been on a generally upward trend since the release of Suicide Squad, even if that film could have been a lot better, every film since has been better than the absolute dumpster fire of BvS. I even enjoy the theatrical cut of JL, even if Whedon is a jerk. I have no excitement for Reeves' version as it looks to me to be even more watered-down than Nolan's trilogy, though I'll be there to see it and hope to be won over.

If you had told me a decade ago that not only would Keaton return to Batman--much less to return for a length of time and be at the heart of not-only a proper Bat family but also a DC universe? I'd have committed you to Arkham. I won't hold my breath for him being semi-retired--the idea that he'll get any more action after The Flash is too good to be true for me at the moment, but the idea of his Batman starting the Bat family because he's too old to do it by himself anymore makes a lot of sense for how he's always portrayed the character.

I do hope 89 and BR get more-or-less folded into the DCEU history--not only since they'd be the official start of the universe now, but also so it still feels like the same Batman as before. Even if it isn't and it's a new, amalgamated iteration, at least we get a send-off for the Batman we knew in The Flash. I prefer BF as the continuation of Burton's Batman for its resolution to his character and addressing his kills during the Burton flicks. However, getting a new Earth Keaton Bruce who either never killed or still went on a journey to be better makes me happy on the other end--while I never would write-off an entire performance for such a reason, I still have considerably come around on appreciating the no-kill code.

The best outcome for me is that 89 and BR still happened exactly, just presumably in a slightly more recent time frame and with Simmons as Gordon. Mention that Wayne eventually had the same BF epiphany about vengeance and he cleaned up his act, and then roll-on DCEU. I'm partial to the idea that Leto was a second, copycat Joker who came later--perhaps this would please his most ardent detractors.

My sentiments exactly.

Also, I can confirm that the actor in the batsuit has thus far been a double. Michael Keaton only joined the production in Glasgow today.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 19:57

My sentiments exactly.

Also, I can confirm that the actor in the batsuit has thus far been a double. Michael Keaton only joined the production in Glasgow today.

Figured as much. Not like Keaton did too much of his own fighting anyway, and it seems like that tradition will continue  ;D

If stunt doubles are needed for "modern-day" Batman to still suit-up when needed, I certainly can't complain.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 14 Feb  2022, 01:00All very good stories. I'm ready to see the early years with Reeves, because while TDK Returns is my Batman Bible it has been overused. My preference does mostly rest in the later years of Batman's career, though. He's seen and done it all, accumulated a complete gallery of rogues, and has a lot more mental and physical scars. If they could reference the stories you've listed even in a brief way that would be excellent.

TDK Returns: Mutant Leader type fight
Beyond: Retired and mentoring replacements
Kingdom Come: Using a similar mech suit for battle
Year 100: 'That can't be Batman out there fighting crime after all these years'
Flashpoint: Moving on from lethality to be a purer hero and 'good man'

I think there's a strong chance some of these elements will be incorporated into the upcoming movies. The mentor aspect of Batman Beyond is rumoured to be a factor in the Batgirl film, and I've got a feeling that we'll see Keaton's Batman transition from the lethal Golden Age-inspired version of the earlier movies into a more modern nonlethal version at the end of The Flash.

As for the mech armour, a part of me thinks they should save that for when Keaton's too old to handle the action anymore. At the moment it looks like he's still capable of performing fight scenes, but a few years from now he might not be able to anymore. That would be a good time to whip out the mech suit. Saying that, it would also make sense to bring out the mech armour for the Justice League film WB is supposedly developing. That would allow Batman to keep up with the other members of the JLA and perform on their metahuman level.

The bloody batsuit in The Flash trailer suggests a violent encounter of some significance, which could well have been a beat down delivered by a younger stronger adversary. It might not be – maybe he was just shot or injured in a car crash – but the way the suit has been discarded on the floor is strongly evocative of the second chapter of The Dark Knight Returns.


I suppose it could just be a coincidence, but... I don't know. The visual similarity seems a tad too specific to be accidental. In some ways The Flash feels like it could be the most authentic live action version of The Dark Knight Returns so far. Sure, they already adapted aspects of TDKR in The Dark Knight Rises and Batman v Superman, but Bale and Affleck were both a lot younger than the TDKR Batman and neither of them was returning to the role after a prolonged absence. In Keaton's case, however, he really is old and it's been literally thirty years since he last donned the suit. We've got an actor who starred in Batman movies when he was younger, and now he's returning to the role after a three decade absence. This is the Burtonverse Dark Knight Returns, and it has the potential to reflect that book's central concept – that of the aging Batman returning to duty – more accurately than any previous movie.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 17:37
Here is video Batman and Gordon.
https://t.co/uhAfKshV6a

Here is a photo
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLpzlr_XMAAxQZ8?format=jpg&name=large)

I wish we could see footage of the actual fight. It looks like those guys got wrecked by Batman. The way Gordon glances over his shoulder after Batman legs it out of shot implies this could be one of those moments where Batman disappears mid conversation. All this time we assumed he used some kind of ninja stealth technique to vanish, but now we see that he just runs away when Gordon's not looking.

The batsuit looks very shiny in the last of those clips, but I suppose that could just be the rain. I hope they'll incorporate some of the design improvements from the Schumacher-era suits into this new costume. On the whole, I've always preferred the Burton batsuits to the Schumacher versions. But I do think that the Schumacher batsuits were better proportioned and had a more impressive overall shape. Especially the sonar/arctic suits. Clooney was probably even skinnier than Keaton, and yet the arctic suit lent his slender frame an imposing musculature comporable to that of the Arkham Batman. And Kilmer looked equally bulked up in the sonar suit.


If they could preserve the basic aesthetic of the Batman Returns costume, but have it shaped more like the sonar/arctic suits, then it could be the best batsuit to date. If nothing else though, it's great to see the return of the yellow oval on the chest emblem for the first time in a quarter of a century. It's been gone for far too long.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 19:41If you had told me a decade ago that not only would Keaton return to Batman--much less to return for a length of time and be at the heart of not-only a proper Bat family but also a DC universe? I'd have committed you to Arkham. I won't hold my breath for him being semi-retired--the idea that he'll get any more action after The Flash is too good to be true for me at the moment, but the idea of his Batman starting the Bat family because he's too old to do it by himself anymore makes a lot of sense for how he's always portrayed the character.

I still can't quite believe it either. This time ten years ago we were anticipating the release of The Dark Knight Rises. Back then I never would have believed that a decade hence we'd be anticipating multiple new Batman movies starring Michael Keaton. That we might actually get to see Keaton's Batman leading the Justice League against Darkseid or some other cosmic threat!

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 19:57
Also, I can confirm that the actor in the batsuit has thus far been a double. Michael Keaton only joined the production in Glasgow today.

I assumed as much. Back when they made the Burton/Schumacher movies, the filmmakers employed doubles and stand-ins for practically every shot where you didn't clearly see the lead actor's face. It makes sense to continue that approach now in light of Keaton's age.

Straight from the Gotham Globe, a look at (young) Keaton's new suit...

(https://preview.redd.it/p6bkt3kqa2i81.jpg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2701858dc0723a6989ad73329cca268c853050c)

I'm a little bit torn--they messed with perfection... but it's still miles better than Pattinson's suit for me.

It seems to keep the basic design elements of the Returns suit, but updated with some extra linework, shoulder and knee plates and a redesigned utility belt (though keeping the buckle design prettymuch). The cowl looks a little like a cross between the '89 and the Returns. The only thing I actively dislike is the way the neck/collar bone design crosses out so far on either side. Looks kinda ugly.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 21:32
Straight from the Gotham Globe, a look at (young) Keaton's new suit...

(https://preview.redd.it/p6bkt3kqa2i81.jpg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2701858dc0723a6989ad73329cca268c853050c)

I'm a little bit torn--they messed with perfection... but it's still miles better than Pattinson's suit for me.

It seems to keep the basic design elements of the Returns suit, but updated with some extra linework, shoulder and knee plates and a redesigned utility belt (though keeping the buckle design prettymuch). The cowl looks a little like a cross between the '89 and the Returns. The only thing I actively dislike is the way the neck/collar bone design crosses out so far on either side. Looks kinda ugly.

Taking into account that this is an unofficial spy pic of Keaton's stunt double leaked from the set, I'm happy with how the costume looks. Obviously we need to see what it looks like on Keaton himself, with proper lighting and a clearer view, before we can judge it properly. But based on this preview, it appears to be a solid evolution of his earlier batsuits and hasn't deviated too far from the BR design. My only real criticism is that I would have preferred a yellow/gold belt instead of a black one. Other than that, I'm happy with it.

WB really needs to get it in gear and release an official pic as soon as possible. Everyone's already seen what the costume looks like now, and these leaked images are never as flattering as the official photos.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLqxArkWUAczkYE?format=jpg&name=large)
My thoughts are:

I like it, but it has the feel of 'we messed with it just enough so that it is legally different enough so we can sell you some new merchandise.'

Here are some sharper images.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLrBsSOXEAoEb5q?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FLq-reqXEAksdRq?format=jpg&name=large)

The cowl looks awesome.


I could do without some of the extra lines on the body, but I guess that sort of busy design is par for the course with modern superhero costumes. One online source is claiming that this is the same suit Keaton wears in The Flash.

Here are a couple more shots from the scene with Gordon.



Meanwhile Keaton was photographed disembarking from a private jet in Scotland.

My guess is the film opens with a prologue.

Gotham City circa the year 1998-2000.

Gordon has a manhunt going for an serial arsonist calling himself the Firefly, who attempts to murder the Gordon family in retaliation. Mrs. Gordon is killed, maybe Firefly goons attempt to finish Babs and Jim, but BATMAN.

The suit looks more or less how I thought it would. Differences from the Burton suit while retaining the general aesthetic. Overall, I like it. I thought the belt could've been black based on the previous set photos. And it is. Kilmer's belt was black, so that's definitely the direction the 90s trended with or without Keaton.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 21:23
The bloody batsuit in The Flash trailer suggests a violent encounter of some significance, which could well have been a beat down delivered by a younger stronger adversary. It might not be – maybe he was just shot or injured in a car crash – but the way the suit has been discarded on the floor is strongly evocative of the second chapter of The Dark Knight Returns.

I like the idea the damage comes from a heavy duty villain, but Keaton barely survives the ordeal and uses the remote control Batmobile to escape back to the cave ala TDK Returns. Which could also provide a counterpoint to B89's Decent into Mystery.

The suit looks like an organic continuation of the BR design. On that basis, I can roll with it. Hell, just having the yellow oval back is enough for me.

I might be wrong. But it looks like the torso has an armored top half while the lower half is tailored to allow for greater flexibility in the stomach, lower back and so forth. It's hard to be sure from the quality of these spy pics tho.

Assuming I'm right... it's an odd looking suit, ngl. Still, I'm content to wait to see it onscreen before making too many judgments.

As SN says, ten years ago, NOBODY was thinking about Keaton ever returning to the character. Amazing how much things can change.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 22:58
One online source is claiming that this is the same suit Keaton wears in The Flash.

Seems to be an accurate guess. I'm pleased that the cowl appears to be the same from the Burton era, meaning head turning abilities didn't influence this Batman's aesthetics. The FlashBat suit (what I'll call the suit worn by Keaton in flashbacks before he seemingly retires in events depicted in The Flash) makes the actor seem much larger than they would be in real life, which further benefits someone like Keaton who doesn't have the largest frame. I haven't been the biggest fan of the B89 comic series, but I'm also hoping to see the Batcycle, or some other expanded universe addition to make an appearance. I wouldn't rule it out, especially when toys are to be sold.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 02:44
NOBODY was thinking about Keaton ever returning to the character. Amazing how much things can change.

NOBODY was thinking about Keaton ever returning as a retconned version of the character. Yet here we are. I'm very disappointed.

It has dawned on me that the studio has squandered a glorious opportunity to expand the Burtonverse and chose this nonsense instead. I'd be far more excited if this was Burton Batman 3 or Batman Beyond than this bastardised merged timeline they're doing. I have a hard time believing any Burton fan is really happy with the idea of Keaton's timeline is getting retconned. This would be like if Tobey Maguire or Andrew Garfield were playing completely different Spider-Men and inherited supporting characters from Tom Holland's world. Same thing goes if Chris Reeve were still alive and he played another Superman that had little to nothing in common with Donner's world.

This reeks of arrogance on the studio executives' part, as Keaton plays any version of Batman, continuity be damned. They might as well have completely recast and reboot the whole Batgirl movie as its own entity if this is what they were going to do. The sooner the Discovery merger kicks those obtuse and crap executives out, the better.

As for the new Batsuit? Judging by the pictures, they look like a cheap replica of the BR costume. Too leathery, only the cowl stands out. At least it's better than that reboot suit...enough said.

I'm very eager to know Burton's reaction to Keaton's involvement in Flash and Batgirl. We still haven't heard from him, it's been nearly two years since Keaton's comeback was announced. The longer he stays silent, the longer I get an impression he's not impressed with the world he created is getting retconned.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 08:50

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 02:44
NOBODY was thinking about Keaton ever returning to the character. Amazing how much things can change.

NOBODY was thinking about Keaton ever returning as a retconned version of the character. Yet here we are. I'm very disappointed.

It has dawned on me that the studio has squandered a glorious opportunity to expand the Burtonverse and chose this nonsense instead. I'd be far more excited if this was Burton Batman 3 or Batman Beyond than this bastardised merged timeline they're doing. I have a hard time believing any Burton fan is really happy with the idea of Keaton's timeline is getting retconned. This would be like if Tobey Maguire or Andrew Garfield were playing completely different Spider-Men and inherited supporting characters from Tom Holland's world. Same thing goes if Chris Reeve were still alive and he played another Superman that had little to nothing in common with Donner's world.

This reeks of arrogance on the studio executives' part, as Keaton plays any version of Batman, continuity be damned. They might as well have completely recast and reboot the whole Batgirl movie as its own entity if this is what they were going to do. The sooner the Discovery merger kicks those obtuse and crap executives out, the better.

As for the new Batsuit? Judging by the pictures, they look like a cheap replica of the BR costume. Too leathery, only the cowl stands out. At least it's better than that reboot suit...enough said.

I'm very eager to know Burton's reaction to Keaton's involvement in Flash and Batgirl. We still haven't heard from him, it's been nearly two years since Keaton's comeback was announced. The longer he stays silent, the longer I get an impression he's not impressed with the world he created is getting retconned.

Dude, not to pick a fight but... don't you get tired of being an iconoclast? Like, I'm sorry that Snyder's movies ended for you, but WB did what any business does--they chase the money. If they're paying for the movies, they have a right to seek a return on their investment. Snyder was the wrong person to ever hand the keys to--he reinvented the characters to suit his vision, and in a lot of ways, his vision for DC was wrong. By his own admission, he finds traditional superhero stories childish and he thinks he "grew up" Superman, which is basically calling all of us who like the comic book childish.

I'm excited to see Keaton return, and I don't care if we're getting a new timeline. The idea that they'd bring him back and have him be completely unrelated to the Batman he played is foolish--some of his history is obviously going to be in there. Times change--I love '89 and BR, but there were things that could have been better. Gordon, for one thing. I give the movies a break because of the context of when they were made, so I don't hold killer Batman or nonexistent Gordon against them, but it's nice to see those situations rectified.

I, for one, don't care about Burton's involvement. Not only has he become a worse filmmaker, but I wouldn't want him anywhere near modern comic book films. I've become disenfranchised with his weak approach to storytelling, and modern comic book movies that are part of a larger continuity are no place for a weak storyteller. Keaton was never hardline about having to have Tim involved, as he really did try to work with Schumacher on BF.

As Silver Nemesis pointed out from the receipts he brought, Keaton is energized about returning to the character. He isn't "secretly ashamed." I know from reading your posts that you're one of the Snyder fans who wants to see everything that's happened as some kind of conspiracy or tremendous injustice, but it isn't. Yes, Joss Whedon was a bastard during the JL reshoots. However, his version of the movie was better. WB going in a different direction is not moustache-twirling villainy--it's a company doing what IT wants with ITS money, trying to be successful, not pump out movies that become a sad joke (must we rehash the Martha mistake?). It isn't a new thing--they did it with Tim back after Batman Returns.

I've resisted posting here again because I didn't want to dodge your excessive negativity, but I've decided to stop running from it. I think you may need to move on from Snyder... or at the very least, just learn to keep your negativity to yourself. People don't often agree with/respond to your posts here. That might be a sign of fanaticism.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 17:51
Dude, not to pick a fight but... don't you get tired of being an iconoclast?

You say you're not trying to pick a fight, but then you sum it all up by telling me to "keep my negativity to myself" and "people don't often agree with/respond to your posts here" and suggest I suffer from "fanaticism". It definitely sounds like you're picking a fight.

Last time I checked, this is an internet forum. People are going to share their opinions, some will agree and some will disagree. Some will be like-minded and reply, and others will shun each other for saying things they don't like. Or for "being negative", in your mind.

None of this bothers me, because it's the nature of the internet. If you hate reading my comments so much, look for ways on the forum on how to hide me. If you can't do that then maybe internet forums aren't for you.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 17:51
Like, I'm sorry that Snyder's movies ended for you, but WB did what any business does--they chase the money. If they're paying for the movies, they have a right to seek a return on their investment.

Personal feelings over Snyder aside (I love your snarky tone, btw ::)), you're acting as if WB didn't burn money with their shoddy JL reshoots and have been totally responsible in their management of the franchise. If WB didn't want to work with Snyder any more, the most responsible thing to do would've stopped all pre-production on JL and parted ways from him. Not spend millions on reshoots that turn out a poor quality product and cause a PR nightmare. That sh*t will go down as one of the worst cases of mismanagement on a film franchise in history.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 17:51
Snyder was the wrong person to ever hand the keys to--he reinvented the characters to suit his vision, and in a lot of ways, his vision for DC was wrong. By his own admission, he finds traditional superhero stories childish and he thinks he "grew up" Superman, which is basically calling all of us who like the comic book childish.

You say "people don't often agree with my posts" and you say this, yet you ignore the fact that several other people on this forum have an appreciation for MOS, BvS and ZSJL and they would strongly disagree with what you just said. Don't be a gatekeeper.

Directors always say things that comic book fans don't like. Burton once went on record deriding comic book tropes as "stupid" and only read The Killing Joke. And like all comics, things have changed over the years, so this idea of traditional superhero stories is rather subjective. I know that's what Snyder once said, but I'm not too bothered about it.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 17:51
I'm excited to see Keaton return, and I don't care if we're getting a new timeline. The idea that they'd bring him back and have him be completely unrelated to the Batman he played is foolish--some of his history is obviously going to be in there. Times change--I love '89 and BR, but there were things that could have been better. Gordon, for one thing. I give the movies a break because of the context of when they were made, so I don't hold killer Batman or nonexistent Gordon against them, but it's nice to see those situations rectified.

I, for one, don't care about Burton's involvement. Not only has he become a worse filmmaker, but I wouldn't want him anywhere near modern comic book films. I've become disenfranchised with his weak approach to storytelling, and modern comic book movies that are part of a larger continuity are no place for a weak storyteller. Keaton was never hardline about having to have Tim involved, as he really did try to work with Schumacher on BF.

Burton's films may be a product of their their time and they aren't perfect by any means. But for a guy who says he loves B89 and BR, you're REALLY underselling them. Jesus Christ.

When news broke out over Keaton would be coming back to the role two years ago, everyone in this forum were theorising how Batman might've continued thirty years after BR and thought about how The Flash could've potentially spin off a Batman Beyond project. At the time, the last thing people thought of was the possibility of Keaton getting retconned in a new timeline. I don't think excitement would've been as high if people knew. Surely most fans would've preferred to expand on that universe while keeping the rest of the continuity in tact. I think that would offer much more interesting storytelling, regardless of whether or not Burton has passed his peak. sh*t, you could've had someone else directing it with Burton merely producing, and that would be fine, as long as that world gets expanded, and concluded.

You say it's foolish to think Keaton's new Batman being completely unrelated to the one he once played, really? I think it's foolish to think the likelihood doesn't exist. Do you seriously think the Jack Napier stuff is going to stay in tact? Or the events of BR won't get overhauled, or get outright ignored? Keaton can say whatever he likes because he has a job to do, but I think all this does is risk alienating lots of fans if you stray too far from the original movies. Why bother bringing him back at all if you go such lengths to change him? You do that, the nostalgia factor is gone.

At that point, you'd be better off recasting altogether.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 17:51
He isn't "secretly ashamed."

Interesting choice of words, I don't remember suggesting Keaton was secretly ashamed of doing anything in this thread.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 17:51
I know from reading your posts that you're one of the Snyder fans who wants to see everything that's happened as some kind of conspiracy or tremendous injustice, but it isn't.

Yeah, there was no injustice happening when Toby Emmerich and co took advantage of a family tragedy to lie to the entire world and say the Whedon reshoots were minimal. And how he promised those reshoots were going to keep Snyder's work in tact.

Ray Fisher speaking out on Whedon's abuse and discrimination behind the scenes, and how the studio enabled and covered it all up was really nothing unjust either.

Nor was the studio giving Snyder a hard time while he was trying to finish his cut and prohibited him from using Green Lantern, even though he considered quitting the project at one point.

Not to mention studio execs calling ZSJL a "cul de sac" a few months prior to the movie coming out while suspiciously taking such a long time to prepare the international roll-out for the film on various streaming services, before it came out only a few weeks later. Trolling fans online with Josstice L 4K remaster a month or so after ZSJL came out and refusing to release the Ayer cut much to David Ayer's dismay. Yeah, that's no big deal.

Not to mention, the same studio (and Whedon) dismissed Fisher's accusations by accusing Snyder of manipulating him as a way to take back control of the DC film franchise.

Yeah, nothing wrong with any of that at all, eh?

To ignore all of this as some sort of wishful "conspiracy" on the fans' part is not only disingenuous, it's downright disgusting. Take WB's boot out of your tongue.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 17:51
Yes, Joss Whedon was a bastard during the JL reshoots. However, his version of the movie was better.

LOL. I can't take anyone seriously who says Whedon's hackjob mess was a better movie than ZSJL. Get the hell out of here.

Even the vast majority of Snyder's detractors agreed that ZSJL was the superior cut of Justice League. Had that movie came out in 2017 like it was supposed to, we'd be having a very different conversation right now.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 17:51
WB going in a different direction is not moustache-twirling villainy--it's a company doing what IT wants with ITS money, trying to be successful, not pump out movies that become a sad joke (must we rehash the Martha mistake?).

Right, because Josstice L wasn't an even bigger and sadder joke. Give me a goddamn break. Stuff like Superman's moustache, Flash falling on top of Wonder Woman and Whedon's stupid and stale sense of humour was mocked for years. Even during the earlier days after that movie came out and I was trying to be indifferent about it, it was hard for me to ignore the travesty of it all. That sh*t was far more embarrassing than petty Martha jokes. There was a reason more people began to demand for the Snyder cut to come out, because the changes Whedon made were so terrible and people realised Snyder's work on that movie was far more complete with consistent continuity, world-building and coherent character arcs.

As for making money and trying to be successful? At the time of writing, the DC movies' box office haven't done any better than Snyder's stuff with the exception of Aquaman and the Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie (which the studio missed out half of the gross revenue because they sold them off to other parties before the movie came out). Maybe Shazam did okay, albeit marginal. Clearly making money is a huge issue at Warner, which is why they're in the middle of another merger for the second time in four or so years. So don't lecture me about the studio's right to do whatever they want with its IP. The PR debacles aren't even restricted to DC, look at the mess they made over HBO Max's same day agenda.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 17:51
It isn't a new thing--they did it with Tim back after Batman Returns.

You're being very intellectually dishonest to compare the circumstances surrounding Burton and Snyder's departures. Don't even try. Burton didn't have to leave his project behind to grieve the loss of a family member, only for the studio to hack it up. If we had a Burton cut situation when Tim was at his peak, I guarantee you'd be a lot more sympathetic.

DocLathropBrown, you've said a lot of ridiculous rubbish in your post. I can look past the difference of opinion over Keaton's return, but clearly you have a strong anti-Snyder bias and you can't even bring yourself to acknowledge the studio's handling of things have been at the very least shady. Rather than trying to challenge my "negativity" and my "fanaticism" and try to dictate what people should say on an internet forum as if your the site's administrator - because God Forbid I don't have any faith in the current regime at WB - maybe you're the one who should keep your comments to yourself. If you're going to continue to dismiss my comments and overlook the studio's problems, then don't waste my time. I have no desire to communicate to intellectually dishonest people.

Ultimately, I guess it wasn't wise for me to say what I did. Snyderites are the newest iteration of how irritating and unrelenting Nolanites were 15 years ago--refusing to stop cramming their opinions into everyone's face. I should have known that you wouldn't show an ounce of thought about maybe if you've been too overbearing about your POV.

I've been lurking on the forum off and on since I was a last regular poster, and I've seen how Snyder cultism/elitism is almost all you post, and while I'm sure there are plenty of people who like Snyder's films more than I do (the only one I totally hate is BvS), you're by far the loudest voice about it here. I've seen relatively few instances of people joining into that exact discussion with you. Normally it looks like you're yelling out into a void. It's frankly tiring to see somebody who doesn't know when to quit or move on--enjoying Snyder's work is one thing, but knowing when to give up the ghost should be another. There's more to DC comics adaptations that the work of one man who could have done a much better job, and it's hard to share joy with others when somebody won't stop coming in and being a Debbie downer.

Trust me, I looked for an ignore option, but there didn't seem to be one. But don't worry, you win. I have better things to do with my time than to constantly go back and forth with a broken record acting out a cult-like obsession with past events. There's so much more to think about, or talk about. Even if I hadn't had an edge of hostility to begin with (As a DC fan, it's hard not to be tired of all the Snyder BS anymore), I can tell you'd have been hostile anyway, since all the Snyder cultists are.

I won't return. Do a victory dance, TLF. You bullied your way to victory. The cult must be proud.

Edit: Several helpful members who agreed with me showed me how the ignore feature works here, so I'm good to go--er, stay!  ;)

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 01:22Get the hell out of here.

This is the exact thing I didn't want.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 03:47I won't return.

Ibid. I mean, do what you want. It's a free country. But this isn't what I would want.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 03:47
I won't return. Do a victory dance, TLF. You bullied your way to victory. The cult must be proud.

Oh I see, playing victim all of the sudden to talk about how bad the "Snyder cult" is and what a "bully" I am, when you were the one who came after me instead of just ignoring me. You just had to go make an ostentatious statement to twist things, didn't you? Thanks for proving my point in how dishonest you are.

My original comment had nothing to do with you. I was replying to thecolorsblend, not you. You decided to reply to my comment with snark and disingenuous nonsense while pretending you weren't trying to pick a fight and I replied back, so you don't get to tell me I "bullied my way to victory". What an idiotic, childish statement. This isn't a war, nor did anyone win or lose. "Do a victory dance" - what the hell is wrong with you?

It's clear you have it out for me, but again, you could've just simply ignored me and keep posting on the forum instead of writing all of this drivel. But oh no, you have to be a gaslighting troll. You're pitiful.

As for this other drivel over "yelling into the void" and overbearing I sound, well, whoever thought sharing news or making observations during current affairs affecting all things ZSJL, Ayer cut or whatever was such a bad thing. You call me a Snyder elitist, well what you're saying sounds pretty elitist to me. I don't care if people respond or not, I post stuff I think is worth sharing. Jesus, it's not that hard to understand.

Yeah, I enjoy Snyder's work, but believe it or not, I don't think the movies are flawless. Nor have I ever suggested the man is the be-all and end-all of DC. I'd only like to see his story arc continue to see its conclusion, and if that somehow sounds elitist and a crime then so be it. So far, Snyder has been leaving behind cryptic messages online urging the fans to keep going for the planned sequels. But if he were to come in tomorrow and say everybody needs let it go - fine - so be it. However, I'm not going to suddenly move on because some petty troll like you says so, nor will I stop talking about the three movies he made, in any case. If you don't like it then perhaps you're the one who needs to move on. And if you refuse to understand the ugly studio politics behind the scenes surrounding all things JL then that says a lot about you then it does about me.

If you really enjoy the idea of Keaton's Batman getting retconned, good for you. I don't, and I'm not going to stop being a "Debbie downer" because it might piss some people off. Grow up.

One more thing: at least "Snyder cultists" never forced Rotten Tomatoes to temporarily shut down comments like Nolan fanatics did when Dark Knight Rises came out; attacking some critics who didn't like the movie despite it got positive reviews overall anyway: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/rotten-tomatoes-dark-knight-rises-351124/

Maybe the so-called "Snyder cult" wouldn't be so overwhelming and irritating in your eyes had the damn studio been more professional. But of course, you won't even acknowledge that. sh*t, I know I crapped on Nolan's Batman movies a lot in the past, but I'd still would've shown sympathy for him if he had a Snyder cut-like situation. You, on the other hand, can't even see the studio doing anything wrong because you hate Snyder's movies and the fandom so much.

For the final time, don't waste my time again, you damn troll.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 03:57

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 01:22Get the hell out of here.

This is the exact thing I didn't want.

Don't take my words out of context, colors. Of course people are free to enjoy whatever they want, but I said what I said because he wasn't interested in having a genuine conversation. He didn't even bother to explain why he thought Whedon's cut was better, he just said like it was an objective, universal fact. Sure, I'm not perfect, but I'm not going to allow myself to be talked down to by somebody who was trying to pick a fight despite saying otherwise, and then pulls the victim card when I reply back.

Whatever, I can tell this conversation might be turning into this petty back-and-forth bickering, so I'm going to put it all behind me.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 13 Feb  2022, 19:10
It does seem likely that the Burton Batman will be retired or semi-retired at the beginning of The Flash, and that the other heroes will have to persuade him to return to active duty.

maybe he screwed up in another way and someone got hurt in the crossfire, similar to how the Earth-Two Batman burnt his batsuit and called it quits after his wife Selina got killed (although he still later returned for one final costumed battle).

(https://i.postimg.cc/8zqnHD6Y/selina-funeral.png)

Yeah, the possibilities of Keaton's aged Batman having more similarities with the Pre-Crisis Golden Age/Earth-Two Batman is intriguing to think about. As ever since I read the hardcover Batman Archives Vol. 1 waaay back as a teen (in addition to your own "Comic Influences" threads), I tend to hold Keaton's Batman as the most reflective live action incarnation to those early Golden Age Kane/Finger days. As a consequence, Keats' Batman conceivably mirroring the established Earth-Two Batman in some fashion during this current vision of the DCEU seems "right" to me.

QuoteKeaton's character in Batgirl will presumably be the new DCEU Batman – the one that will likely be introduced at the end of The Flash – rather than the Burtonverse version. The relationship between the two should be similar to the relationship between the Pre-Crisis Earth-One Batman in the comics and his Post-Crisis New Earth counterpart. Certain things carried over from the Pre-Crisis era into the Post-Crisis canon (e.g. the Ra's al Ghul stories) while other things didn't (the Catwoman stories), and similarly I expect certain things from the Burton continuity will carry over into the new DCEU timeline while still allowing the filmmakers the freedom to alter or retcon other things. For example, the new DCEU Batman might have saved Vicki Vale from the Joker at the Flugelheim Museum, but in this timeline the Joker might still be alive and might not be the killer of Bruce's parents. I'm just theorising, but I think this is how things might pan out.

I know you're only theorizing, and I'm with you on retcons are 'to be expected' at this point (BatKeats having a Robin in his original costume for starters!), but the whole Joker being alive, and Napier possibly not being the killer of the Wayne's might please vocal detractors of B89 lore, but it may also effectively retcon's Nicholson's Joker completely out of the equation (which would be more or less the point of taking transformative retcons like that), and that's a prospect I'm pretty cold on. I can't imagine I am alone in that either, as Keaton returning as Batman after all these years is a pretty strong card, but also comes across as a play that's a little too reliant on just specifically that attraction. Fans of the Burton films, who are undoubtedly going to be the most excited/nostalgic to see Keaton back as Batman, love those films for more than just who played Batman. It was that world, those characters, the colorful villains, that unique interpretation of the lore that left such an impression. Especially for those of us who were there to experience Bat-Mania in 1989.

Personally, I'm pliable enough to roll with some retcons, but let's keep them at a minimum, and a lot less egregious towards the films Keaton himself is spinning off from in the first place. 

However, since Warners is in a very transitional period right now, I fully expect some, shall we say, reorganization to happen post-Discovery merger, and not just with the current DC Films brass, but also in film plans/releases as well. If prior mergers of this scale is any indication.

QuoteI'm surprised they haven't released an official image of him in the suit yet. Normally the studio would try to do that before set pics leaked. Perhaps there's a new trailer imminent that will include an official reveal?

Agreed.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 21:32
Straight from the Gotham Globe, a look at (young) Keaton's new suit...

(https://preview.redd.it/p6bkt3kqa2i81.jpg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2701858dc0723a6989ad73329cca268c853050c)

I'm fine with this. Looks alright to me. We all have a pretty cemented picture in our heads of what Keaton's Batman looks like, and this doesn't stray far enough away from the 89/92 aesthetic that it becomes rather jarring by contrast.

I've been staring at the cowl, and it occurred that the cowl and the scallops are separate pieces. The cowl and the emblem are under the armored scallops. I think Batman can turn his head.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 18 Feb  2022, 01:02
I've been staring at the cowl, and it occurred that the cowl and the scallops are separate pieces. The cowl and the emblem are under the armored scallops. I think Batman can turn his head.

Possible, but perhaps unlikely? People have image-matched this suit with the Watchmen-ish symbol teased for The Flash, and the extra pectoral lines look the same, and Keaton said he still couldn't turn his head in The Flash--although he delivered it with a sense of comedic timing so maybe he was being facetious.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 22:02

I know you're only theorizing, and I'm with you on retcons are 'to be expected' at this point (BatKeats having a Robin in his original costume for starters!), but the whole Joker being alive, and Napier possibly not being the killer of the Wayne's might please vocal detractors of B89 lore, but it may also effectively retcon's Nicholson's Joker completely out of the equation (which would be more or less the point of taking transformative retcons like that), and that's a prospect I'm pretty cold on. I can't imagine I am alone in that either, as Keaton returning as Batman after all these years is a pretty strong card, but also comes across as a play that's a little too reliant on just specifically that attraction. Fans of the Burton films, who are undoubtedly going to be the most excited/nostalgic to see Keaton back as Batman, love those films for more than just who played Batman. It was that world, those characters, the colorful villains, that unique interpretation of the lore that left such an impression. Especially for those of us who were there to experience Bat-Mania in 1989.

Personally, I'm pliable enough to roll with some retcons, but let's keep them at a minimum, and a lot less egregious towards the films Keaton himself is spinning off from in the first place. 

Agreed. While my preference would be for '89 and Returns to be intact except for the new Gordon (although you might even be able to treat it as a recast--I see no reason why J.K. Simmons' Gordon couldn't have taken the exact same actions as Pat Hingle's Gordon in the new timeline), I know there will probably be some tinkering--but I don't think there'd be much. It would sort of defeat the purpose of bringing him back permanently if his two prior movies weren't a go-to place for new people to catch up and see what this new (to them) Batman was all about. I'm sure any tinkering would be on the lighter side because of that necessity, since I don't think Keaton is going to get any new solo projects.

Granted, this is WB. While I don't feel anywhere near as strongly about WB as TLF does, I do freely admit that WB has made plenty of mistakes with DC--principally in that they don't understand what makes DC tick to begin with, hence handing the keys to the wrong people on more than one occasion. But all in all, be it by accident or by design, I have enjoyed every DC film (on some level) since Ayer's Suicide Squad. So that's an upward trend in my book. Of the films since 2016, the only one that was a step down was ZSJL, but even then, it wasn't horrendous--just overlong.

About the only thing I need to see at this point to be completely satisfied with the new DCEU is evidence that Superman will be around in some form. I guess WB is too afraid to try another Superman film, since they don't understand him--even though Chris Evans mimicked Chris Reeve and sold a much harder character in Captain America (it's right there, WB! Just copy Evans!). Hell, if they just let Cavill be himself in the role, people would love him. He's a charmer, that one.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Fri, 18 Feb  2022, 01:43

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 18 Feb  2022, 01:02
I've been staring at the cowl, and it occurred that the cowl and the scallops are separate pieces. The cowl and the emblem are under the armored scallops. I think Batman can turn his head.

Possible, but perhaps unlikely? People have image-matched this suit with the Watchmen-ish symbol teased for The Flash, and the extra pectoral lines look the same, and Keaton said he still couldn't turn his head in The Flash--although he delivered it with a sense of comedic timing so maybe he was being facetious.

The way I see it, even if he can turn his head somehow, the new cowl respects what we've seen in the previous two Keaton films. We're not dealing with a thin neck or a raised collar which would be completely foreign to this interpretation. What I am curious to know is what boots he's wearing this time, considering last time they went with Nike.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 22:02I know you're only theorizing, and I'm with you on retcons are 'to be expected' at this point (BatKeats having a Robin in his original costume for starters!), but the whole Joker being alive, and Napier possibly not being the killer of the Wayne's might please vocal detractors of B89 lore, but it may also effectively retcon's Nicholson's Joker completely out of the equation (which would be more or less the point of taking transformative retcons like that), and that's a prospect I'm pretty cold on. I can't imagine I am alone in that either, as Keaton returning as Batman after all these years is a pretty strong card, but also comes across as a play that's a little too reliant on just specifically that attraction. Fans of the Burton films, who are undoubtedly going to be the most excited/nostalgic to see Keaton back as Batman, love those films for more than just who played Batman. It was that world, those characters, the colorful villains, that unique interpretation of the lore that left such an impression. Especially for those of us who were there to experience Bat-Mania in 1989.

Very this.

I loved Superman my whole life. But my comic book/superhero fandom was truly born on June 23, 1989. Anything that brings Keaton back to the character will have some mighty high expectations of mine to live up to. As you say, some kind of retconning is probably inevitable. But it should be done sparingly. Erasing the Jack Napier element... well, let's just say that cooler heads DESPERATELY need to prevail on that.

And yet, I'm a hypocrite because just thinking about Keaton reprising the role makes me a little giddy even now and we've had a couple years for the novelty to wear off. So, I guess we'll see.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 18 Feb  2022, 01:02
I've been staring at the cowl, and it occurred that the cowl and the scallops are separate pieces. The cowl and the emblem are under the armored scallops. I think Batman can turn his head.

Same. In the back of my mind, I've been nursing a theory that the scallop could be a partial exoskeleton designed to support Bruce's back (perhaps following some sort of spinal injury between BR and now?) but that's pure conjecture on my part.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Fri, 18 Feb  2022, 01:59
Agreed. While my preference would be for '89 and Returns to be intact except for the new Gordon (although you might even be able to treat it as a recast--I see no reason why J.K. Simmons' Gordon couldn't have taken the exact same actions as Pat Hingle's Gordon in the new timeline), I know there will probably be some tinkering--but I don't think there'd be much. It would sort of defeat the purpose of bringing him back permanently if his two prior movies weren't a go-to place for new people to catch up and see what this new (to them) Batman was all about. I'm sure any tinkering would be on the lighter side because of that necessity, since I don't think Keaton is going to get any new solo projects.

That makes a ton of sense.

I never really thought about it in those terms; that new fans who might be unfamiliar with Keaton's Batman (it has been 30 years since his last film), possibly having a interest in going back to watch the Burton films to see Keats' Batman in not just sequences or as a supporting player, but two entire movies that featured Keaton's Batman in his prime. I was looking at it in a more nostalgic lens, but there's really no arguing your logical stance. Cause that undoubtedly will happen (especially with youngsters and the very casual Batman movie goers), and tinkering around too much with the proper Keaton Batman movies will just result in making the initial viewing experience diminished, and even confusing to some.

With JK Simmons' Gordon, I know this isn't going to happen, but I would just make him Commissioner James Gordon Junior. Ignore the comics version, and have him be as incorruptible and committed to justice as his old man. Being that JK himself is a few years younger thank Keaton, you could even have JK's Gordon make mention to Keaton's Batman of being a mere beat cop during the Penguin kidnapping/murdering the Ice Princess to frame Batman ordeal. Possibly even referring to Hingle's Gordon by saying, "You know, I don't think dad ever truly forgave himself for suspecting you for one second." With Keaton responding with expected pointedness and brevity, "He was a good man."

Just a thought, but that would be one scenario where Hingle's Gordon wouldn't be erased, JK's Gordon Jr. has stepped into his father's role, and is retconned into (at least) being present in the GCPD during the "Batman Returns" events.

I know presently we can't expect a super serious "LOGAN" type situation with Keaton's Batman, but I think having a Batman who's not only just older, but having experienced much loss (not just Alfred, but genuine friends/allies like that of Gordon, Billy Dee's Harvey Dent losing his sanity, Robin leaving at some point ... might be a state of affairs where it's stated like TDKR where Batman and Robin haven't spoken in years. Hell, you can even have him going celibate after Selina, deciding he will never find love, and would be in keeping with how Denny O'Neil envisioned the character, ect), and as a consequence, is in a pretty dark place when we meet him. Possibly even self destructive due to self isolation. Where, over the course of the movie, he undoubtedly has some sort of redemptive arc. We kinda got this with Garfield's Spider-Man in "No Way Home", stating he became bitter after Gwen, and even going so far in telling Holland's Spider-Man, "Don't be like me.", but I think this kinda arc could be explored to it's fullest potential with Keaton's Batman. There's so much that was endured in those 30 years, no doubt some of it was pretty bad, but seeing him rise like a phoenix against the dying of the light would be, quite frankly, dramatically satisfying to see.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 18 Feb  2022, 04:32
Very this.

I loved Superman my whole life. But my comic book/superhero fandom was truly born on June 23, 1989. Anything that brings Keaton back to the character will have some mighty high expectations of mine to live up to. As you say, some kind of retconning is probably inevitable. But it should be done sparingly. Erasing the Jack Napier element... well, let's just say that cooler heads DESPERATELY need to prevail on that.

And yet, I'm a hypocrite because just thinking about Keaton reprising the role makes me a little giddy even now and we've had a couple years for the novelty to wear off. So, I guess we'll see.

That was the "No Way Home" effect for me. Not a perfect movie by any stretch of the imagination, but damn was it a treat to see Maguire, Garfield, Molina, Dafoe, THC, and the rest return in one big movie. Course, I'm more of a fan service > subvert expectations kinda guy, so I'm biased.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 22:02
retcons are 'to be expected' at this point (BatKeats having a Robin in his original costume for starters!), but the whole Joker being alive, and Napier possibly not being the killer of the Wayne's might please vocal detractors of B89 lore, but it may also effectively retcon's Nicholson's Joker completely out of the equation (which would be more or less the point of taking transformative retcons like that), and that's a prospect I'm pretty cold on. I can't imagine I am alone in that either, as Keaton returning as Batman after all these years is a pretty strong card, but also comes across as a play that's a little too reliant on just specifically that attraction. Fans of the Burton films, who are undoubtedly going to be the most excited/nostalgic to see Keaton back as Batman, love those films for more than just who played Batman. It was that world, those characters, the colorful villains, that unique interpretation of the lore that left such an impression. Especially for those of us who were there to experience Bat-Mania in 1989.

Personally, I'm pliable enough to roll with some retcons, but let's keep them at a minimum, and a lot less egregious towards the films Keaton himself is spinning off from in the first place.

Great comment. You've eloquently expressed my concerns so much better than I ever could. You raised a really good point about how these dramatic changes might embolden the Burtonverse's biggest detractors. That's something I didn't even think about before. It would suck if that were to happen after the discourse surrounding B89 and BR improved a lot over the last several years. I can't imagine how any supposed Burton Batman fan would like that. If the fears of Keaton's Batman potentially becoming the latest casualty in Hollywood's clumsy woke politics wasn't concerning enough, this is another thing to worry about.

I'd very surprised if they keep the whole Jack Napier stuff in tact. As I've said many times by now, putting Simmons and Keaton in the same universe together is significant, so who can guarantee they won't retcon the whole Joker backstory? We all know there's no chance for Nicholson to ever come back due to old age, and he has retired for over a decade anyway. Even if they don't have any plans to reintroduce the Joker, I can see these writers thinking it's a good idea to change the history for the sake of comic accuracy.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 22:02
However, since Warners is in a very transitional period right now, I fully expect some, shall we say, reorganization to happen post-Discovery merger, and not just with the current DC Films brass, but also in film plans/releases as well. If prior mergers of this scale is any indication.

Yeah, something tells me the status quo isn't going to be the same.

While I doubt anything will change much for Batgirl, I won't be surprised if it gets moved to next year.

I wonder if the new costume was influenced, at least in part, by the Earth One batsuit. Note the extra seams on the torso, and in particular the lines on the pectoral area which correspond with those on the Earth One costume. Also note the similar way the cape and cowl connect with the chest emblem, which is different from the earlier Keaton batsuits, and the fact the utility belt is black despite the chest oval being yellow.


This would make sense, since the earlier Keaton costumes were essentially all-black variations of the Neal Adams suit, while the Earth One costume is basically a fusion of the Adams batsuit with the Batman Inc version (which was in turn influenced by the Burton movie batsuits).

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 03:57

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 03:47I won't return.

Ibid. I mean, do what you want. It's a free country. But this isn't what I would want.

Same here. DocLathropBrown was one of the first people to join this site. He's been here longer than I have and has contributed to several site features over the years. I was glad to see him start posting again and I'd be sorry to see him leave now. I hope he'll stick around.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 23:24My guess is the film opens with a prologue.

Gotham City circa the year 1998-2000.

Gordon has a manhunt going for an serial arsonist calling himself the Firefly, who attempts to murder the Gordon family in retaliation. Mrs. Gordon is killed, maybe Firefly goons attempt to finish Babs and Jim, but BATMAN.

If the rumours concerning the Nightwing movie are true, then I think they might use the prologue/flashback to introduce a teenage Dick Grayson before presenting the adult version later in the film. Whether he'll suit up or not is anyone's guess, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him putting in an appearance.

When I first saw those set pictures of the mural depicting Batman and Robin I had this idea that they might use it for a scene transition between the past and present – so we might have a two-shot of Batman and Robin standing next to each other, then dissolve to a matching reverse dolly shot of the mural accompanied by a caption saying "25 years later" as the camera pulls back to reveal present day Gotham. I don't suppose that'll actually happen. But it would be cool to see a comic accurate teenage Robin appear alongside Keaton, even if it's only for a brief flashback.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 15 Feb  2022, 23:34I like the idea the damage comes from a heavy duty villain, but Keaton barely survives the ordeal and uses the remote control Batmobile to escape back to the cave ala TDK Returns. Which could also provide a counterpoint to B89's Decent into Mystery.

Only this Batman won't have Alfred to patch him up, which would make such a defeat harder to bounce back from. I wonder if the film will address how the Burtonverse Alfred died. Old age, MacGregor's Syndrome, or did one of the villains kill him?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 02:44I might be wrong. But it looks like the torso has an armored top half while the lower half is tailored to allow for greater flexibility in the stomach, lower back and so forth. It's hard to be sure from the quality of these spy pics tho.

I think you're right. I've seen plenty of stunt double pictures from B89 and BR where the trousers look wrinkled, but the upper body section was usually firm. In these pics though the abdominal area looks creased, which suggests a more flexible material has been used. Meanwhile the upper pectoral area looks sturdier and sculpted, which as TDK points out is most likely intended to make Keaton's slender physique look more muscular.

Manoeuvrability would be one reason for using a more flexible material (hopefully this means we can expect some impressive fight scenes), but I'd imagine Keaton's age is also a factor. The costume needs to be light enough that a man of his advancing years can wear it without too much discomfort. It's no secret that the costumes in the Burton/Schumacher era were very heavy and uncomfortable. Apparently they became lighter and more flexible during Schumacher's reign, but were still fairly onerous to wear. This new costume needs to improve on those earlier designs. We don't want Keaton quitting after Batgirl just because he couldn't face wearing the suit again.

Though saying that, I wouldn't be surprised if he just appears in his Bruce Wayne civilian togs from now on before getting a new costume in the Justice League film, and that new costume could well be a mo-cap mech suit. In which case this new batsuit might only be used in The Flash and Batgirl. But we'll see.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 16 Feb  2022, 07:08I haven't been the biggest fan of the B89 comic series, but I'm also hoping to see the Batcycle, or some other expanded universe addition to make an appearance. I wouldn't rule it out, especially when toys are to be sold.

Much as I'm looking forward to seeing the Burton Batmobile return, I would love to see Keaton's Batman break out the Batcycle. We've already seen him drive versions of the Bat-plane and the Bat-boat, but never the Batcycle. The dieselpunk design from the Batman '89 comic is consistent with the aesthetic of those earlier vehicles and would look great in live action.


I've seen tongue-in-cheek speculation that Keaton might have his own version of the Batsub in Aquaman 2. I think it's more likely he'll just appear on dry land in his Bruce Wayne guise. But the Batcycle is a very real possibility. Batfleck's certainly riding one in The Flash, and it looks great.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 17 Feb  2022, 22:02I know you're only theorizing, and I'm with you on retcons are 'to be expected' at this point (BatKeats having a Robin in his original costume for starters!), but the whole Joker being alive, and Napier possibly not being the killer of the Wayne's might please vocal detractors of B89 lore, but it may also effectively retcon's Nicholson's Joker completely out of the equation (which would be more or less the point of taking transformative retcons like that), and that's a prospect I'm pretty cold on.

We can take consolation in the knowledge that any retcons they do make should only apply to the new DCEU canon, not the Burtonverse canon. The Burton films will always exist untainted in their own universe (that universe will probably end in The Flash anyway, thus sealing it off from future tampering), just like Superman III, IV and Supergirl will always exist in spite of the divergent Singerverse timeline. If the new films disappoint, then we can ignore them and fall back on the Schumacher movies as the true continuation of that timeline.

Apropos of the Napier situation, I haven't seen any leaks about the studio's plans for the Joker yet, other than the rumours of them developing a sequel to the 2019 Phoenix film. If I was to speculate how the Joker might be handled in future DCEU films, here are a few possibilities.

1)   Have Napier's Joker replace Leto while honouring the events of the 1989 film. In other words, Jack is the Joker of this timeline but Batman wasted him over thirty years ago. They could mention him, but always in the past tense. A while back you and I brainstormed a pretty good idea for how the Napier Joker could be revived in a Batman Beyond movie using a new actor and deepfake technology. If they take this route, then the door remains open for a live action Return of the Joker movie once the current slate of films is finished.

2)   Have Leto continue as the Joker of the DCEU. This might entail erasing the Napier Joker entirely, or else somehow having the two Jokers co-exist. One way of doing this would be to reveal that Leto's Joker is a copycat, similar to the Curtis Base Joker from Batman V1 #450-451 or Jarvis Poker the British Joker, or else adapting Geoff Johns' three Joker's concept from the more recent comics. These approaches would still leave the door open for Napier's version to return in a Batman Beyond film.

3)   Merge the Nicholson and Leto Joker's into an amalgamation. This would obviously involve retcons, such as having the Joker survive the cathedral showdown in the 1989 film and making it so that he didn't kill Bruce's parents. The age difference between Keaton and Leto would also be a problem. I imagine this solution would be the one most likely to upset fans. But once again it would only affect the DCEU Joker, not the Burtonverse version.

4)   Ignore the Joker altogether. With the possible exception of the Gotham City Sirens movie, I doubt the Joker's going to factor into any of these upcoming films anyway. They could just avoid giving a concrete answer as to which Joker it is and let the fans decide.

I'd say the first and fourth strategies would work best. Maybe a combination of the two. Just don't mention the Joker, beyond passing references to events of the past, and then leave the door open for a Return of the Joker movie at a later time. If another Phoenix movie gets made, that should give fans their Joker fix. Or WB might introduce a new Joker in the Reeves universe. I don't particularly want to see Keaton's Batman go up against the Joker again, unless it's in a Batman Beyond film, so I'd be happy with them just leaving this particular issue vague for the time being.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Fri, 18 Feb  2022, 01:59I'm sure any tinkering would be on the lighter side because of that necessity, since I don't think Keaton is going to get any new solo projects.

I don't think he will either. If the leaks I've seen are true, then he'll have a co-lead role in The Flash and Justice League, a modest supporting role in Batgirl, and probably just a cameo in everything else. Unless they go ahead and make Batman Beyond further down the line, in which case he'll be the co-lead alongside whoever plays Terry.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 19 Feb  2022, 20:38
We can take consolation in the knowledge that any retcons they do make should only apply to the new DCEU canon, not the Burtonverse canon. The Burton films will always exist untainted in their own universe (that universe will probably end in The Flash anyway, thus sealing it off from future tampering), just like Superman III, IV and Supergirl will always exist in spite of the divergent Singerverse timeline. If the new films disappoint, then we can ignore them and fall back on the Schumacher movies as the true continuation of that timeline.

That's a valid way of looking at the current situation. As you mentioned, the divergent interpretations of Keaton's Batman and lore is something that may very well become something of an issue depending on just how well the current plan for Keaton's DCEU Batman is received. Unfortunately, the nostalgic card with Keaton's Batman returning after such a long hiatus will have been fully played with "The Flash", and I believe the reception of that film (along with the reception/plan for Keaton's variant DCEU rendition) is going to be, more or less, 'the' decider on how Discovery/Warners decides to handle Keaton going forward. Since I just don't really believe "Batgirl" on HBO Max is going to be what saves or theoretically kills this iteration of Keats' Batman if "The Flash" is negatively panned, and if it's not, then I don't see Discovery deciding upon changing course. Interesting times indeed.

Quote1)   Have Napier's Joker replace Leto while honouring the events of the 1989 film. In other words, Jack is the Joker of this timeline but Batman wasted him over thirty years ago. They could mention him, but always in the past tense. A while back you and I brainstormed a pretty good idea for how the Napier Joker could be revived in a Batman Beyond movie using a new actor and deepfake technology. If they take this route, then the door remains open for a live action Return of the Joker movie once the current slate of films is finished.

Admittedly, I am pretty married to the idea of a supernaturally revived Nicholson Joker (new actor/stand in, soundalike, deepfake, some smoke and mirrors like how Blumhouse revived Donald Pleasence's Doctor Loomis in "Halloween Kills", ect) returning from the dead in a Batman Beyond movie.

However, right now, given just how messy the situation with DCEU continuity is, and the apparent state of flux that's going on behind the scenes with the Discovery merger, and what the fall out of the DCEU might be following that, I don't rule out the possibility (especially since I don't foresee "Flashpoint" being the FIX current Warner brass as hoping for, anymore than "Flashpoint/New52 was the FIX DC Comics was hoping for) that we'll see Keaton's Batman appearing in different timelines/Earth's. Yes, this would be akin to Fox's X-Men cinematic universe, where continuity was played rather fast and loose, but perhaps WB will, if this theory pans out, make more of a point in the future on stating different earth's are very much in play. This would be a more discernible way to reconcile glaring continuity clashes if/when course changes are implemented, and possibly leaves the door open for a actual return to the Burtonverse with Batman Beyond in the future.

The incorporation of various earth/timelines in the DCEU, thus compartmentalizing various versions of characters/lore (Keaton/Affleck Batman existing simultaneously with Pattison's Earth-2 Batman, Nicholson/Phoenix/Leto with Joker, ect) would lend itself to many unique approaches and interpretations for filmmakers. Not to mention, possibly building towards a bona fide cinematic "Crisis" down the road, but that's playing the long game.

QuoteJust don't mention the Joker, beyond passing references to events of the past, and then leave the door open for a Return of the Joker movie at a later time. If another Phoenix movie gets made, that should give fans their Joker fix. Or WB might introduce a new Joker in the Reeves universe. I don't particularly want to see Keaton's Batman go up against the Joker again, unless it's in a Batman Beyond film, so I'd be happy with them just leaving this particular issue vague for the time being.

Couldn't really agree more. With the Reeves Batman universe, I really have no desire to see the Joker appearing in that interpretation (I think it would pretty spectacular if it's NOT Joker, but Harvey Dent who is built up in future sequels/tv shows, to where the eventual clash between Pattison's Batman and Two-Face has a very dramatic effect). Presently, I don't believe we truly know what the future holds for the Snyderverse until following the Discovery merger, so that leaves open the possibility of more of Leto's Joker returning in some fashion. Then there's Joaquin Phoenix's Joker in the Phillips earth. So, personally, that's honestly enough Joker. I really have no desire to see the character get completely over saturated like in the current comics, where he's basically used monthly from what I hear. Which is ridiculous, but that's the decaying state of that industry now. So go figure.

Apparently the Gotham Globe Newspaper is featuring Lex "Luther" and has a blurb about Cobblepot making a comeback. It may tease that the Penguin is alive. Could be nothing. A lot of these set dressing props are never seen.

I have a feeling the misspelling of Lex's name is down to UK spelling. Some prop guy is thinking of the religious figure, haha

I think if these details were going to be getting true screen time, that spelling would get corrected.

Quote
Recently, in a now deleted tweet, Twitter user @the_iain_shaw revealed a prop newspaper he found on King Street in Glasgow that seems to suggest that more than just Keaton's Batman will be transplanted into the DCEU by the events of The Flash.
...

It seems to read "A COMEBACK FOR COBBLEPOT", which is likely a reference to Oswald Cobblepot AKA The Penguin. The newspaper is an issue of the Gotham Globe, a fictional newspaper previously seen in Batman Returns. The paper's logo is the same as the one seen in the Burtonverse. The image can be seen below, via Twitter user @drisraelluna.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220222161520/https://screenrant.com/batgirl-movie-set-photos-penguin-danny-devito/

I saw this photo of the newspaper prop, it has been taken down now. The prop was folded underneath, but you could tell what the headline print was saying, as quoted in that source.

While it's very unlikely Penguin will make an appearance in this movie or any planned follow-ups, this shows yet again it's a completely different universe from the Burton canon. You'd have to be delusional to deny the likelihood at this stage. If they're planning to retcon Penguin, even as an Easter egg, there's no reason why anyone should expect the Jack Napier Joker stuff will be retained. Same probably goes for the BR Catwoman too. Even if Penguin does appear, I strongly doubt he'd look like his BR counterpart anyway. For all we know, he probably wouldn't be played by DeVito either, given his age after all.

Again, I'm not impressed at all. Keaton's return is less of a comeback, and more of a reboot. I just don't see the point in bringing him back if his original canon that everyone remembers and cherishes gets discarded. They might think Keaton will bring more eyes to stream Batgirl, but where's the nostalgia factor if his world (and maybe the character's personality too?) is completely unrecognisable? Forget about The Flash, if you were going to make a new timeline for Batgirl then make a completely new movie altogether with new actors. Not make this jumbled mess.

As for the Lex Luthor spelt with an 'E'? This is the second time they've done this. I'm starting to think this was done on purpose for whatever reason, but that's trivial compared to these significant changes to the world that Keaton's Batman now lives in.

DeVito seems to have a lot of affection for that character. I can't prove it but I would imagine that if someone invites him to come back, he'd relish that opportunity.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 19 Feb  2022, 20:38
Only this Batman won't have Alfred to patch him up, which would make such a defeat harder to bounce back from. I wonder if the film will address how the Burtonverse Alfred died. Old age, MacGregor's Syndrome, or did one of the villains kill him?

I'd rather they avoid the MacGregor's Syndrome angle and keep that to the Schumacherverse. A villain killing Gough would be brutal. I'm leaning on the side of old age - perhaps a heart attack like TDK Returns. Brought upon by excessive worry about Bruce's wellbeing due to his advancing age and refusal to retire. A beatdown by a gruesome heavy validates Alfred's original concern, and thus weighs heavy on Keaton's soul. He was told but he didn't listen. His crusade nearly cost both of their lives. I see the thematic possibilities there.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 23 Feb  2022, 01:25
DeVito seems to have a lot of affection for that character. I can't prove it but I would imagine that someone invites him to come back, he'd relish that opportunity.

I reckon he'd return if they asked him. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they already have, and if DeVito's bizarre contribution to last year's Gotham City Villains special was his way of reconnecting with the character. If he does appear in any future DCEU films, I'd expect his role to be limited to a cameo. He'd probably be portrayed more in line with the traditional comic book Penguin, which is what fans were expecting back in 1992, and would be shown running the Iceberg Lounge. I can't see them making Oswald a major villain in any upcoming DCEU movies, simply because Farrell's version looks set to play a prominent role in the Reevesverse. But a DCEU cameo from DeVito sounds plausible to me.

Saying that, the Penguin reference in the newspaper article is probably just something a prop maker threw in as a gag. But if there were plans for Oswald to appear, then I wouldn't rule out DeVito from playing the part.

A big truck showed up on set. Everyone is convinced that the batmobile is about to make an appearance.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 25 Feb  2022, 00:46
A big truck showed up on set. Everyone is convinced that the batmobile is about to make an appearance.

No guarantees he would be using the Furst design either - some Batfleck elements will carry over to the new timeline, and that may include the BvS mobile.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 26 Feb  2022, 03:35

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 25 Feb  2022, 00:46
A big truck showed up on set. Everyone is convinced that the batmobile is about to make an appearance.

No guarantees he would be using the Furst design either - some Batfleck elements will carry over to the new timeline, and that may include the BvS mobile.

Eh. I mean, yeah. Maybe.

But while I can picture the Burtonverse continuity getting some kind of tweak, I would be shocked if the aesthetics and iconography change too much. Nothing is impossible. But the Furst Batmobile is nearly as iconic as Keaton himself playing the character. It would be totally out of left field to give him a completely different Batmobile.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMoXl6TWYAgGqFH?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMtNWbUWYAQKc6N?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMtNWbVX0AA5-38?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

a look at firefly:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMy7uRwXMAEZu-X?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FM3-IjHXwAU_cUe?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

Reminds me a bit of this guy:


It's got a similar dieselpunk/interwar vibe. I hope he'll fly at some point.

Even if he doesn't fly, at least he looks right!

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Thu,  3 Mar  2022, 01:12
Even if he doesn't fly, at least he looks right!

Let's see what happens, but I believe flight is an essential component for any incarnation of Firefly. It's an interesting design. I can see the character in there, but also elements of Ratcatcher and Jeep Swenson's Bane.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  3 Mar  2022, 12:47
Let's see what happens, but I believe flight is an essential component for any incarnation of Firefly.

Same here. I'd be happy to have him fly just once, maybe with the aid of a glider during the flashback scenes, and then have him remain grounded for the rest of the movie. But he really needs to fly at some point, otherwise Firefly is just... Fire.

The set videos show him blasting flames from atop a fire engine while Batgirl pursues him on her motorcycle, so this is obviously the older middle-aged Firefly from the present day scenes. Perhaps he'll have wings or a jet pack when he fights Keaton in the prologue/flashback. An aerial battle, with both of them using their gliders, would make for a novel set piece. Or maybe the wings will be added digitally in postproduction. Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing Brendan Fraser's performance, and based on these pictures his costume looks decent. The mask references his classic comic book design, and he's still got a fireproof suit and flamethrowers.


All it's lacking is wings or a jetpack to complete the evil Rocketeer look.

Grain of salt:

Dylan O'Brien has commented on his 'fan' casting as Dick Grayson and has denied being in Batgirl. It has been noted that his wording seemed to be carefully calculated. In response there have been a few scoopers who have outright called O'Brien the next Andrew Garfield. He, they claim, is a werewolf. One source has insisted that yes, he is in it and will be a third act surprise or possibly a end credit tease. The internet insists that Dylan O'Brien is Nightwing! I'd say it seems likely. I think the Bat family is going to be taking center stage in the DCEU.

This would gel with earlier reports I've seen that he was approached about the role, though I'm still not convinced those rumours are anything more than fan casting. I wouldn't have a problem with O'Brien playing Nightwing. The only thing I've seen him in is American Assassin, and based on that I think he'd make a pretty good Dick Grayson. Rumours abound that Nightwing is in the movie, regardless of who might play him. But those same rumours claim it'll only be a cameo to set up his solo movie.

I'm curious about how big Keaton's role in this film is going to be. He only arrived in Glasgow on February 15th and was back in the US for the SAGs on February 28th. Is he heading back to Glasgow for more filming? Will the rest of his scenes be shot in a studio at a later time? Or is his role in the movie just smaller than we thought?

At a glance, the Firefly costume doesn't look too bad. It looks better than some other live-action Batman villain costumes I've seen lately.

Now that Flash has been delayed till next year, it remains to be seen if Batgirl will get delayed too. I'd be surprised if it doesn't, because this is tied to The Flash, and establishes Keaton's retconned timeline. Batgirl doesn't even have an official release date yet. I really doubt they want to debut the new Keaton Batman in a streaming exclusive movie.

The current word is that the new leaders at Discovery are less interested in the restoration of Snyderverse (predictably) and are more interested in upping theatrical releases and doing less HBO MAX exclusives. Batgirl has apparently been targeted as being strong enough for a theatrical run.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed, 18 May  2022, 21:56
The current word is that the new leaders at Discovery are less interested in the restoration of Snyderverse (predictably) and are more interested in upping theatrical releases and doing less HBO MAX exclusives. Batgirl has apparently been targeted as being strong enough for a theatrical run.

If Batgirl, which stars Michael Keaton and JK Simmons, isn't switched to cinemas, it's stubbornly bone headed and dumb business. Things like Obi-Wan Kenobi and The Mandalorian are obviously television programs with cinematic production values, and thus suit streaming. The same applies to the upcoming Penguin and Arkham shows. I am strongly in the camp of making movies for the big screen - especially after the prolonged period of shutdowns which smashed the industry to the core. And as for the Snyderverse - I understand the need for justice against those responsible. But I don't think changing management is going to result in new content. Can't say I'm surprised.

The Batgirl directors say they don't know if their movie is coming out before or after Flash. What a mess.

https://www.insider.com/batgirl-michael-keaton-batman-directors-confirmation-interview-2022-6

But I do believe it will be delayed for next year and get released after The Flash.

That is a mess.

Wow!

The Batgirl directors have gone on record saying they don't really know why Keaton's Batman and Simmons' Gordon are tied together.

Quote from: Adil El Arbi
"Well you know, we'd sort of give the same answer, because we would also ask [to WB execs], 'Oh, you have J.K. Simmons from the Snyderverse and we got Michael Keaton from the Burton-verse. What's the situation there?' And they would say, 'Don't worry about it. We got a plan.' They never really explained that aspect to us, but I guess you're gonna have to see the other movies to understand what happens, why the reason is that we ended up in sort of a spaghetti of Multiverses in that aspect. It's gonna be a delicious spaghetti, I'm sure of that."

https://web.archive.org/web/20220718153249/https://thedirect.com/article/batgirl-movie-dc-multiverse-connections-exclusive

"Don't worry about. We got a plan" translates to "We have NO f***ing clue with what we're doing, and we don't care".

I'd much rather take a Batman 3 by Tim Burton - even if he has passed his peak - than whatever the hell this clusterf*** is doing. Rumour has it Keaton's role in this movie is only five minutes long anyway.

Looks like this movie got canceled. No release on any platform. Friggin WB has no clue what they're doing, lol.

https://www.thewrap.com/batgirl-movie-dead-warner-bros-discovery-has-no-plans-to-release-nearly-finished-90-million-film/ (https://www.thewrap.com/batgirl-movie-dead-warner-bros-discovery-has-no-plans-to-release-nearly-finished-90-million-film/)

The word is new management wants to focus on giant theatrical movies, and Batgirl wasn't that. It was a smaller film. Also HBOMAX apparently can't host it because they're killing that service.

I think I'm done. Seriously. I think I'm done with it. All of it. I really tried to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Leave it to WB to make so that NO ONE is happy. LITERALLY NO ONE WINS NOW! YOU HAVE LITERALLY FOUND THE LOSE-LOSE SCENARIO YOU INCOMPETENT RUBES! YOU'VE ALIENATED THE ENTIRE DC FAN BASE!!!!!!!

Set fire to the DCEU because I just don't care. To hell with all of it.

If this is true, then Bat-Keaton's comeback it turning into a farce. First the Batman '89 comic massively disappoints. Then The Flash gets delayed because his co-star is a mentally-unstable PR nightmare. Then his scenes in Aquaman II are deleted and reshot with Affleck. Now another movie of his might be scrapped entirely. The situation is ridiculous.

How long before the #releaseBatgirl campaign gets underway?

It has now been made official via the Hollywood Reporter. 'Cost saving measure' for a low budget nearly finished film that tested decently.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  2 Aug  2022, 21:17
If this is true, then Bat-Keaton's comeback it turning into a farce. First the Batman '89 comic massively disappoints. Then The Flash gets delayed because his co-star is a mentally-unstable PR nightmare. Then his scenes in Aquaman II are deleted and reshot with Affleck. Now another movie of his might be scrapped entirely. The situation is ridiculous.

Our boy deserved better. But seriously, the prior regime and their plans was a absolute clusterF, and evidently the WBD strategy with DC films is to implement change sooner than later, rather than simply take the easier route and allow this Hamada Post-Flashpoint DCEU timeline play itself out.

Some interesting decisions as of late. I'll give 'em that.

QuoteHow long before the #releaseBatgirl campaign gets underway?

;D

That's an incredible development, especially with this being led by a black female character - and with a fairly high profile of the film actually existing and being made. It will be fascinating to see how the media reports this story, and what everyone connected to the film has to say even though they would all have been paid.

I wasn't super excited about Batgirl but would have seen it due to Keaton's involvement. The Flash basically necessitates him being used afterwards in some fashion. Surely it has to jade him in some way. Does an aborted project still count as part of a contract? In any case, the case, the studio has burned two Keaton appearances (Batgirl and Aquaman 2) without him even making it to the big screen.

If The Flash ends with Batfleck lost in the multiverse, and they still want to continue the DCEU, they may as well do a Crisis film right now. If I were Keaton I wouldn't expand my contract. I'd be looking at how it can be concluded.

But honestly, I don't know what to say. Just incredible news to wrap my head around in terms of mismanagement.

Quote from: The Joker on Tue,  2 Aug  2022, 21:44Our boy deserved better. But seriously, the prior regime and their plans was a absolute clusterF, and evidently the WBD strategy with DC films is to implement change sooner than later, rather than simply take the easier route and allow this Hamada Post-Flashpoint DCEU timeline play itself out.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  2 Aug  2022, 21:45I wasn't super excited about Batgirl but would have seen it due to Keaton's involvement. The Flash basically necessitates him being used afterwards in some fashion. Surely it has to jade him in some way. Does an aborted project still count as part of a contract? In any case, the case, the studio has burned two Keaton appearances (Batgirl and Aquaman 2) without him even making it to the big screen.

If The Flash ends with Batfleck lost in the multiverse, and they still want to continue the DCEU, they may as well do a Crisis film right now. If I were Keaton I wouldn't expand my contract. I'd be looking at how it can be concluded.

After this bombshell, I wouldn't be surprised if the idea of Keaton replacing Affleck was scrapped altogether. I certainly think we should expect reshoots for The Flash. Partly to get around the Ezra problem, but perhaps also to alter the end of the movie and have Affleck stay on as Batman. The main argument against them reshooting Ezra's scenes was the expense, but if they're willing to scrap a $70-90 million movie then anything's possible.

Whatever happens, I hope they'll at least keep Keaton's scenes in The Flash. It would be nice if after all this disappointment we could get at least one new Batman movie with him. A few months ago we thought we were getting multiple films. Let us keep one at least. :-[

Also, anything DC that isn't a major motion picture is now in jeopardy. The word is that Discovery isn't interested in anything that isn't a giant 200 million dollar expenditure.

I'm just laughing at this mess.

This is insane!    ;D

Quote from: The Joker on Tue,  2 Aug  2022, 21:44
Our boy deserved better. But seriously, the prior regime and their plans was a absolute clusterF, and evidently the WBD strategy with DC films is to implement change sooner than later, rather than simply take the easier route and allow this Hamada Post-Flashpoint DCEU timeline play itself out.

Some interesting decisions as of late. I'll give 'em that.

[/quote]
Following Syl Abdul Inc's scoop that Batfleck would return in Aquaman 2, Mikey Sutton  said on Syl' s channel that WBD hated the Flashpoint Timeline ever since the new company was created. Even said yesterday on YouTube that Batgirl was testing poorly, and now I'm hearing he scooped in a private members video its cancellation was inevitable.

A damning indictment on the whole Emmerich/Hamada regime, once.again.

I only want a couple of things from DC in live action: Cavill and Batfleck's return for ZSJL 2 and 3, at the bare minimum, and Keaton starring in Batman Beyond. That's it.

As someone with no horse in this race anymore, all I can say is LOfreakingL!

For those of you hoping for #RestoreTheSnyderverse, well, Batgirl is toast and Affleck seems to be replacing Keaton in AM2. So, you might yet get what you want. Me, I am officially out of the prediction business.

BUT! This is just about what you do when you want to introduce some kind of different direction. You don't argue around the margins about "keeping what works", you fire people, you cancel stuff, you retcon/reboot as necessary, you take whatever hardline steps you need to take to get the job done. This includes cancelling a 90% finished ~$100 million film because it no longer fits in with your program.

Whatever personal investment in these matters that I lack at the moment, as a gadfly who enjoys chaos and bedlam, I must say I'm eating this news up with a spoon and asking for seconds.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue,  2 Aug  2022, 22:22
Following Syl Abdul Inc's scoop that Batfleck would return in Aquaman 2, Mikey Sutton  said on Syl' s channel that WBD hated the Flashpoint Timeline ever since the new company was created. Even said yesterday on YouTube that Batgirl was testing poorly, and now I'm hearing he scooped in a private members video its cancellation was inevitable.

A damning indictment on the whole Emmerich/Hamada regime, once.again.

Yeah, actions speak a hell of a lot louder than just mere words. I've speculated in the past, that WBD-post merger, would honestly have no real ties or sentimentality for what the outgoing Hamada regime was then-planning with the DCEU. Thus, why uphold it? It's not their baby. Not where the new chiefs want to creatively take the DCEU going forward, and evidently the cancellation of "Batgirl" (which would have been set squarely within the Post-Flashpoint Hamada timeline created by the conclusion of "The Flash") comes across more like a decision was made to go with brand preservation over simply taking the L. 

QuoteI only want a couple of things from DC in live action: Cavill and Batfleck's return for ZSJL 2 and 3, at the bare minimum, and Keaton starring in Batman Beyond. That's it.

I am pretty much with you on this (in addition to Joker: Folie à Deux which I am keenly interested in). Sutton has stated that WBD green lighting ZSJL2 and ZSJL3, along with a MOS2 (which he claims are apart of negotiations between Cavill and WBD) could be viewed as more of a business necessity than actual desire from WBD. As pulling a complete and total reboot with a new cast would be a rather unenviable task. I think it was made pretty clear by fans to WBD and the Rock during his presentation that Cavill returning as Superman wins hands down over anything they have been trying to cook up with Jar Jar and that coats guy. Batfleck is now placed into Aquaman 2 where he wasn't before. I don't really see Gal Gadot and Jason Momoa going anywhere anytime soon unless outright pushed out (which would be foolish). Keaton in a "Batman Beyond" live action film is a no brainer (Sutton briefly mentioned there being "talks" between WBD and Burton directing Batman Beyond. Which is intriguing. If anything, something like that probably would get attention as a nostalgic hook for fans with BB being essentially the 3rd in a Keaton/Burton trilogy of films given the 'Keaton back as Batman' card already having been played).

WBD making a decision to shelve "Batgirl" when it's pretty much done signifies some pretty big shifts in what the future of the brand will be going forward. Interesting times.

I wonder what the main issue was that made the studio decide the film was "irredeemable". Was it the wokeness? Was it the confusion surrounding Keaton's return? Or was it just really badly made? Considering this is the same studio that released Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey in theatres, could Batgirl really have been that much worse?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  2 Aug  2022, 22:57
As someone with no horse in this race anymore, all I can say is LOfreakingL!

For those of you hoping for #RestoreTheSnyderverse, well, Batgirl is toast and Affleck seems to be replacing Keaton in AM2. So, you might yet get what you want. Me, I am officially out of the prediction business.

BUT! This is just about what you do when you want to introduce some kind of different direction. You don't argue around the margins about "keeping what works", you fire people, you cancel stuff, you retcon/reboot as necessary, you take whatever hardline steps you need to take to get the job done. This includes cancelling a 90% finished ~$100 million film because it no longer fits in with your program.

Whatever personal investment in these matters that I lack at the moment, as a gadfly who enjoys chaos and bedlam, I must say I'm eating this news up with a spoon and asking for seconds.

Now Syl and Sutton have hinted that Flash will be the next movie to get shelved. It wouldn't be surprising if that's true because of the whole Ezra Miller saga. But it does beg the question even louder over Affleck's role in Aquaman 2. IF WBD wanted to reboot DC on film from scratch, then why would they pour more money on reshoots for Aquaman and have Batfleck in it? Why would the script NEED Batman at all, especially if we take Affleck's previous words saying he has had enough of franchise films? We'll find out soon, I guess.

Meanwhile, it's reported the Batgirl directors weren't even made aware that their movie got canceled while they were away at a wedding. Ouch.

Quote from: The Joker on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 02:57
I think it was made pretty clear by fans to WBD and the Rock during his presentation that Cavill returning as Superman wins hands down over anything they have been trying to cook up with Jar Jar and that coats guy.

Right after the Rock got booed over his hint over Superman getting played by another actor, I saw him in an interview afterward saying "Henry Cavill is the Superman of our generation". They would be NUTS not to get Cavill back after that SDCC backlash. The Rock can talk about "DC hierarchy is about to change" with his promotion of Black Adam all he wants, but he's kidding himself if he thinks a  traditional Shazam villain is going to outgrow Superman's popularity. FWIW, Sutton has insisted Cavill will return, not only in Black Adam but for a solo MOS sequel too. We'll see if all of those things come to fruition.

As for JJ Abrams and that Ta-Nehisi Coates guy, I think it's very unlikely their Superman will ever get made. It's best that it never does.

I have to say, I'm very surprised at the Batgirl news. I thought WBD would commit to putting it on streaming since it was a movie that the new company had inherited from the previous WB regime, but they thought it was better to get a tax write-off because they don't see releasing it will gain any money whatsoever. That's quite damning, but I blame AT&T for allowing this project to get this far. They reportedly canceled previous projects like New Gods and the Aquaman spin-off The Trench before any of them got filmed, so Batgirl - and the wider Flashpoint Timeline - getting further work done despite an evident lack of faith is something I won't ever understand.

As much as I despise this guy for posting a laughing gif on the subject of Autumn Snyder's suicide, his second-hand account of test screeners' reaction to Batgirl is quite telling:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZMLsEUWAAIXDjB?format=jpg)

The Tim Burton Batman deserved better, alright. >:(

I woke up, checked twitter.

...I'm still laughing at all of this. lol

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 10:57
I wonder what the main issue was that made the studio decide the film was "irredeemable". Was it the wokeness? Was it the confusion surrounding Keaton's return? Or was it just really badly made? Considering this is the same studio that released Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey in theatres, could Batgirl really have been that much worse?

It could very well be a bad movie. But I feel there has to be more to this. I'll be paying close attention to see if Batgirl as played by this Leslie person is retained and introduced in future projects. If she's not, that says a lot. Or if she is, perhaps the content and context is altered to be more palatable. Honestly, I'm hoping she's scrapped altogether. I was never completely on board with Keaton working with a female assistant, and saw it as their woke substitute for Terry. If Keaton does remain, I'm hoping he's given something larger and more meaningful going forward.

As the saying goes, fail to plan - plan to fail.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 11:06
Now Syl and Sutton have hinted that Flash will be the next movie to get shelved.

Got links for those? I'm sort of curious.

If WBD cans The Flash... I just can't even. That would be massive. So, I'd like to see those Syl and Sutton sources, thx.

For anyone who's interested, here are some details about Keaton's role in Batgirl according to leaks. I don't suppose there's any point marking this as SPOILERS, but I'll put it in white anyway in case anyone's holding out hope for the movie's release.

Keaton appears in five scenes altogether.

The first scene is the one we saw them filming earlier in the year with J K Simmons. Batman appears and saves Gordon from a gang of criminals. This is a flashback scene in which Keaton is digitally de-aged.

The second scene takes place in the present where Bruce Wayne is attending a party. Some terrorists arrive and try to assassinate him, but they're foiled by Barbara who happens to be dressed in a Batgirl suit for Halloween (this harkens back to her costumed debut in the comics). Bruce takes note of Barbara's actions and is concerned.

The third scene sees Batman showing up in the Batmobile and accosting Batgirl on the streets of Gotham. He gets out of the car and warns her not to continue her costumed antics or her actions will get people killed.

The fourth scene has Batman showing up at Batgirl's hideout to give her some important information about the case she's investigating.

The final scene has Batman and Batgirl talking on a rooftop and agreeing to work together. He gives her a new costume and they both leap off a gargoyle. Then the credits roll.

According to leaks, this is what Keaton's role amounted to. It was bigger than his role in Aquaman II, but smaller than his role in The Flash. At no point in the movie does he train Batgirl, which suggests the rumours of this being a Batman Beyond substitute were false. The rumours of Dick Grayson/Nightwing appearing are also said to have been false.

Of course all of these leaked details might be false, but most people are treating them as accurate.

We'll just have to consign this film to the same cinematic netherworld (I suggest we call it Earth-86) as Superman Lives and Justice League: Mortal. Only in this case, the movie was actually shot and in the late stages of postproduction. Think about that – somewhere, in some vault at WB, there's a complete Michael Keaton Batman film that we'll possibly never see.

I'm also seeing rumours that the final act of The Flash will be reshot. Probably to remove the plot point about Keaton becoming the new DCEU Batman.

You know, I remember reading Batgirl played a key role in the Batfleck script. If only Emmerich, Tsujihara and Johns left things alone, a cinematic Batgirl would've made her debut four or so years ago.

Sigh.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 14:47

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 11:06
Now Syl and Sutton have hinted that Flash will be the next movie to get shelved.

Got links for those? I'm sort of curious.

If WBD cans The Flash... I just can't even. That would be massive. So, I'd like to see those Syl and Sutton sources, thx.

It may appear hearsay at this point in time, but Syl started expressing some uncertainty about Flash's release hours several hours after claiming the film was being tweaked (wtf?!)...

https://twitter.com/sylabdul_inc/status/1554654788473716741

...and expressed doubts even further here.
https://twitter.com/sylabdul_inc/status/1554702737597775872

Sutton went onto a fan livestream discussing Batgirl's cancellation and warned everyone "don't get too attached to the flash movie" on this timestamp.

https://youtu.be/-BVKJz964hU?t=8673

I repeat, it may appear hearsay. But after Syl's Batfleck Aquaman scoop and Sutton saying his sources were telling him that Batgirl was awful before it got canned, their sources may be closer to the truth. It's funny, my reaction to Sutton on the DC side of things waned a bit when he incorrectly scooped Batfleck would appear in Batgirl. But with these latest tidbits, my curiosity has regained quite a bit. He also correctly scooped that Flash's release date was getting delayed back in January, although he didn't seem to know anything about Ezra Miller's problems. That either means the old regime were keeping Miller's alleged on-set meltdowns under wraps, or those rumours were bullsh*t.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 14:50
For anyone who's interested, here are some details about Keaton's role in Batgirl according to leaks. I don't suppose there's any point marking this as SPOILERS, but I'll put it in white anyway in case anyone's holding out hope for the movie's release.

Keaton appears in five scenes altogether.

The first scene is the one we saw them filming earlier in the year with J K Simmons. Batman appears and saves Gordon from a gang of criminals. This is a flashback scene in which Keaton is digitally de-aged.

The second scene takes place in the present where Bruce Wayne is attending a party. Some terrorists arrive and try to assassinate him, but they're foiled by Barbara who happens to be dressed in a Batgirl suit for Halloween (this harkens back to her costumed debut in the comics). Bruce takes note of Barbara's actions and is concerned.

The third scene sees Batman showing up in the Batmobile and accosting Batgirl on the streets of Gotham. He gets out of the car and warns her not to continue her costumed antics or her actions will get people killed.

The fourth scene has Batman showing up at Batgirl's hideout to give her some important information about the case she's investigating.

The final scene has Batman and Batgirl talking on a rooftop and agreeing to work together. He gives her a new costume and they both leap off a gargoyle. Then the credits roll.

According to leaks, this is what Keaton's role amounted to. It was bigger than his role in Aquaman II, but smaller than his role in The Flash. At no point in the movie does he train Batgirl, which suggests the rumours of this being a Batman Beyond substitute were false. The rumours of Dick Grayson/Nightwing appearing are also said to have been false.

Thanks for posting that abridged version of Keaton's "Batgirl" participation. Pretty much all that I was honestly interested in with "Batgirl" to begin with.

QuoteWe'll just have to consign this film to the same cinematic netherworld (I suggest we call it Earth-86) as Superman Lives and Justice League: Mortal. Only in this case, the movie was actually shot and in the late stages of postproduction. Think about that – somewhere, in some vault at WB, there's a complete Michael Keaton Batman film that we'll possibly never see.

Yeah, still pretty crazy to think about. Absolutely. Also, with another movie, "Scoob" was apparently pretty much finished as well. However, WBD felt it was worth more as a $80m tax writeoff than just-going-ahead-and releasing, which is kinda nuts. Paul Dini, who was a co-writer on that film, was fully baffled by that.

Quote from: The Joker on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 16:31Also, with another movie, "Scoob" was apparently pretty much finished as well. However, WBD felt it was worth more as a $80m tax writeoff than just-going-ahead-and releasing, which is kinda nuts. Paul Dini, who was a co-writer on that film, was fully baffled by that.

It was a sequel to Scoob. But same difference, honestly. And this one is even more baffling since the sequel (A) was largely completed and (B) was set for streaming. In today's world, it's well and good to prioritize theatrical releases. But in the end, you've got to keep streaming in mind.

Cancelling Batgirl makes a certain amount of sense from a branding standpoint.

But cancelling the Scoob sequel (however awful the first one might've been) is incomprehensible to me. I simply do not understand the business strategy going on here. I have to believe that there IS one. But this business with the Scoob sequel just doesn't add up for me at all.

WBD/Zaslov is alienating people. Now, there are only so many movie studios in Hollywood. So, nobody can afford to harbor too many hard feelings. But still, you want to stay on positive terms with the talent. You could argue that greenlighting a Scoob sequel in the first place was a dumb idea. But at this point in the production pipeline, cancelling it just seems... dumb.

Which is why I want to believe there's a grander strategy going on here that is somehow invisible to me. It's not like I know everything, if any of you have any ideas about this, please share, I'm all ears eyes.

The host Midnight's Edge BELIEVES The Flash will be next at the whipping post. He doesn't cite sources; he just says he thinks it's the most likely outcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v0Uyk6kK_4

The Flash no longer has a release date despite testing highly. My worst fear is that Batgirl was cancelled because they no longer intend Keaton to be part of the universe going forward and will be reworking the ending. If that happens, I'm out. Don't really know what else to say.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 21:46
The Flash no longer has a release date despite testing highly. My worst fear is that Batgirl was cancelled because they no longer intend Keaton to be part of the universe going forward and will be reworking the ending. If that happens, I'm out. Don't really know what else to say.

Also,despite James Gunn asserting that Peacemaker was in no danger, apparently it is. In fact, every show on MAX with a DC label is expected to be cancelled. Doom Patrol, Harley Quinn, Peacemaker, everything.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 21:46
The Flash no longer has a release date despite testing highly.

I see June 23, 2023 listed on Wiki at this moment. Not saying you're wrong. Just saying that, at the very least, the film's Wikipedia hasn't been edited yet.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 16:56

Quote from: The Joker on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 16:31Also, with another movie, "Scoob" was apparently pretty much finished as well. However, WBD felt it was worth more as a $80m tax writeoff than just-going-ahead-and releasing, which is kinda nuts. Paul Dini, who was a co-writer on that film, was fully baffled by that.

It was a sequel to Scoob. But same difference, honestly. And this one is even more baffling since the sequel (A) was largely completed and (B) was set for streaming. In today's world, it's well and good to prioritize theatrical releases. But in the end, you've got to keep streaming in mind.

Cancelling Batgirl makes a certain amount of sense from a branding standpoint.

But cancelling the Scoob sequel (however awful the first one might've been) is incomprehensible to me. I simply do not understand the business strategy going on here. I have to believe that there IS one. But this business with the Scoob sequel just doesn't add up for me at all.

WBD/Zaslov is alienating people. Now, there are only so many movie studios in Hollywood. So, nobody can afford to harbor too many hard feelings. But still, you want to stay on positive terms with the talent. You could argue that greenlighting a Scoob sequel in the first place was a dumb idea. But at this point in the production pipeline, cancelling it just seems... dumb.

Which is why I want to believe there's a grander strategy going on here that is somehow invisible to me. It's not like I know everything, if any of you have any ideas about this, please share, I'm all ears eyes.

The Scoob sequel, like Batgirl, was expected to go to HBO Max, but now there is word going around that HBO Max will cease to exist and merge with Discovery Plus. More layoffs on the streaming department is expected to be announced very soon. That could be another reason why both of these movies got canned

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 22:08
Also,despite James Gunn asserting that Peacemaker was in no danger, apparently it is. In fact, every show on MAX with a DC label is expected to be cancelled. Doom Patrol, Harley Quinn, Peacemaker, everything.

I am inclined to believe this, especially content connected to the DCEU. I'm thinking anything that was HBO Max bound is getting the boot, which may even include the Reeves Batman projects (Penguin/Arkham). Sun Tzu recommends that military commanders avoid spreading their forces too thin, as that would make an army weaker throughout. Similarly, in your career, if you spread your skills over too many diverse areas, you won't be able to specialize in anything. That may be the mindset here too. Just as long as The Batman 2 continues development.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed,  3 Aug  2022, 22:25
The Scoob sequel, like Batgirl, was expected to go to HBO Max, but now there is word going around that HBO Max will cease to exist and merge with Discovery Plus. More layoffs on the streaming department is expected to be announced very soon. That could be another reason why both of these movies got canned

Yeah, back in the day, the AOL/Time Warner merger was pretty prolific in just how much of a disaster the whole thing wound up being. With the Warners/Discovery merger, way too early for the predictions column, but damn is this one hell of a corporate media shake up!

Supergirl will likely get chopped as well.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-news/batgirl-shelved-warner-bros-1392407/

Looks like a slash and burn hard reboot is happening. The Flash will probably be the end of the line.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  4 Aug  2022, 03:44Supergirl will likely get chopped as well.

Seems obvious in retrospect.

Am I the only one who thinks it would be funny as hell if Zaslov (or someone in his orbit) gives the same kind of passive-aggressive farewell speech for putting the old regime's entire program out to pasture like the one Sarnoff gave to Snyder's "trilogy"?

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  4 Aug  2022, 03:44Looks like a slash and burn hard reboot is happening. The Flash will probably be the end of the line.

I'm loving all this chaos and confusion. We have officially reached the point where the drama behind these movies is far more interesting than the drama in the movies themselves.

What people call chaos is usually someone taking charge of a situation. If we're being serious, and I always am, the DCEU should have been rebooted after the JL reshoot fiasco. But it limped on. So I say chop it all with the biggest and sharpest katana we can find. And while we're at it, give it a T-bone with the Tumbler. Solo films would be my chosen direction. I like Batfleck, but if we're not getting anything else from him, I say chop out the two seperate Batmans thing and just focus on one: Battinson.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  4 Aug  2022, 09:40
What people call chaos is usually someone taking charge of a situation. If we're being serious, and I always am, the DCEU should have been rebooted after the JL reshoot fiasco. But it limped on. So I say chop it all with the biggest and sharpest katana we can find. And while we're at it, give it a T-bone with the Tumbler. Solo films would be my chosen direction. I like Batfleck, but if we're not getting anything else from him, I say chop out the two seperate Batmans thing and just focus on one: Battinson.

Very this. Pattinson simply has more momentum going on than either of the other two.

Oh yeah, I'm totally down for a full reboot of the DCEU. I would let Matt Reeves stick to his own universe, and of course, Todd Phillips with his Joker universe. But if they want a shared universe similar to the MCU, just burn it all to the ground and start fresh. They're not using Snyder, they're not using Cavil, and Affleck isn't coming back in a full role. Just restart.

Superman, for example, is crying out for solo films. He needs to be more than just a bit player in a Justice League. Individual films at least lay a groundwork that the DCEU lacked if they ever decided to cross things over with an event film. But if they didn't I'd be totally fine with that. If the powers that be have 100% decided Affleck is done, my mind is well and truly made. I have very low desire for yet another new Batman actor to be cast while Battinson is strutting his stuff. It would be overkill. One actor at one time is enough.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu,  4 Aug  2022, 02:40
Yeah, back in the day, the AOL/Time Warner merger was pretty prolific in just how much of a disaster the whole thing wound up being. With the Warners/Discovery merger, way too early for the predictions column, but damn is this one hell of a corporate media shake up!

Batgirl should never have been greenlit in the first place, but if there is one thing that bothers me about the way WBD handled this cancellation, it's how they didn't inform the cast and crew about their decision, they learned about it in the media reports. I would've expected this lack of professionalism from the Emmerich/WarnerMedia regime. WBD need to get their act together or else more people will start calling them out if they fail to fulfill the promise of restoring relationships with creatives.

With that said, there is one person I don't have any sympathy for being kept in the dark about the cancellation, and that is Walter Hamada.

Quote
Amid the shelving of the HBO Max film Batgirl and the clear desire of Warner Bros. Discovery chief David Zaslav to find new leadership for the DC universe, DC Films president Walter Hamada has come to the verge of exiting the studio and consulted with counsel, sources tell The Hollywood Reporter.

Hamada has now agreed to remain in his post at least until the Oct. 21 release of the Dwayne Johnson film Black Adam, according to sources with knowledge of the situation. "He's pausing," says a source. "The decision has not been made to make this adversarial, yet." Hamada could not be reached for comment.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/dc-films-walter-hamada-exit-batgirl-1235193439

Anyway, a couple of shots from the film have leaked online. Here is one with Michael Keaton and Leslie Grace, in costume.

(https://i.imgur.com/tJ75dA8.jpg)

Here is another of Batgirl speaking to a guy called Bressi, with an excerpt from the script describing the scene. "Battin time" sounds like a parody of the Thing's "It's Clobberin' Time".

(https://i.imgur.com/FUCigMV.jpg)

Does "Bressi" refer to Tony Bressi? If so, that's one hell of a deep cut from the comics. He was an incidental character at best and only appeared in two or three issues (that I can remember).

Some scoopers interviewed somebody who attended a test screening for Batgirl. To sum it up, the film sounded mediocre at best and was compared to an hour-long CW pilot. Keaton apparently did the best he could in a very small albeit pivotal role, as Batman came out of retirement to help Batgirl.

https://geekositymag.com/report-michael-keaton-only-had-small-role-in-batgirl/

Whatever happens with Keaton going forward, we can only lament his talent was misused for this mess.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  5 Aug  2022, 16:16
Does "Bressi" refer to Tony Bressi? If so, that's one hell of a deep cut from the comics. He was an incidental character at best and only appeared in two or three issues (that I can remember).

That would appear to be the case, according to this article from April.

https://www.eonline.com/news/1327435/leslie-grace-just-dished-out-some-sweet-batgirl-scoop

Upon winning an Emmy for his stellar performance in the mini-series Dopesick, Keaton was asked about Batgirl's cancellation and his future as Batman.

Quote
"I think it was a business decision," Keaton said in the Emmys press room about Warner Bros. shelving Batgirl. "I'm going to assume it was a good one. I really don't know. I don't follow it that much."

As for when we might see him as Batman again, Keaton joked, "a little later tonight, probably. If you're lucky enough. No, I'm kidding. I don't know! We'll see."

https://ew.com/awards/emmys/michael-keaton-remembers-haters-supporters/

To be honest, Keaton was never going to overshadow the night with a rant, even if he was truly peeved by the situation.

A week ago, the CFO of WBD described the backlash surrounding Batgirl's cancellation as "blown out of proportion".

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/warner-bros-discovery-cfo-batgirl-shutdown-coverage-was-blown-out-of-proportion-to-its-business-impact-1235214730/

Most interesting, however, was this statement:

Quote
"I think there are a couple of clear priorities. DC stands out," Wiedenfels said, alluding to the search for someone to lead the comic book brand's empire. "As you know, David is still looking for someone to lead that, specifically. Wizarding World of Harry Potter has huge potential if we can get it right ... There is a lot in flight, but clearly if you look at it from a risk and reward perspective, leveraging some of those existing brands improves your return profile."

And looking further out, Wiedenfels showed signs of optimism and caution.

On the one hand, he said, "I think the opportunity is enormous, I view this as a Boeing 747 flying on one engine," noting all of the potential options on the table.

But on the other hand, he said that financial data his team accessed after the merger did not align with some of what they had access to pre-merger, forcing an adjustment.

And he also noted that "there is uncertainty in the macroeconomic environment, no question about it."

Sounds like Emmerich and co meddled with the numbers. If that's so, no wonder why they were fired.

As a general note, we keep hearing about Zaslav's "ten year plan" for DC on film.

Something we should all keep in mind is that DC characters are going to begin entering the public domain. Superman in 2034, Batman in 2035, Wonder Woman in 2036 and so forth.

That doesn't mean that WBD will "lose" the characters. But it does mean that everyone else will gain them (or gain pieces anyway).

In my opinion, that reality does a lot to explain why so many seemingly rash decisions are being made right now. Zaslav's supposed ten year plan has twelve years in which it can be executed while WBD retains a monopoly on DC characters.

It's tempting to suggest that the copyright law could be extended. It's happened before. But I think it's highly unlikely to happen this time.

Because Disney would probably have to lead the charge on that. Because I'm betting that nobody else has the funds at the moment. But there are a lot of reasons why Disney is powerless this time to change the law. They're long and tedious reasons so I'll skip them.

But what it all comes down to is that once Steamboat Willy becomes public domain (which will happen on January 01, 2024), the dam will have broken. And after that, I'd be shocked if entertainment media companies are able to successfully lobby for changes in copyright law ever again. If Disney can't get it done now for Mickey Mouse/Steamboat Willy (and they can't), why would a less influential company be successful in protecting a (by definition) lesser IP?

Which means that Zaslav's career is probably riding on his ten year plan being an unqualified success. I can only imagine the pressure he's under.

I say all of the above to point out that these crazy decisions WBD is making actually make a certain amount of business sense. I think I better understand now what Zaslav is up to. And if I'm right, he's betting literally everything on his ten year plan. So, don't expect him to be in a warm, compromising mood in the years to come. If anything, he'll probably only become even more hard-nosed going forward.

Are the current decisions crazy? Not really - it's the former regime who allowed things to evolve to that point. It led to Supergirl replacing Cavill and Batgirl taking the prominent Batman role. If the bull wasn't taken by the horns right now the original Snyder trinity was gone forever. Keaton is always going to have my respect as Batman, and that much is obvious for all of us here. But if there's the real possibility of a Justice League reformation with Cavill, Affleck, Gadot and others I'm dropping everything and going with that. Scrapping the Batgirl movie is very small potatoes when you look at the big picture, which removes the idea Zaslav is being reckless. It's calculated and necessary. Get the current slate released and then get the ball rolling with the films the fans really want to see, namely a true Man of Steel sequel. If that's what happens I can see him turning things around dramatically.

Batgirl was supposed to wear a second costume in this canceled film, which means that original costume was supposed to be homemade.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlXQcUoWYAE05PY?format=jpg)

Still looks like a CW costume, but at least it looks a bit better.

Leslie Grace has dismissed Peter Safran and Zaslav's claim the film got canceled because it was unwatchable and defended the project.
https://variety.com/2023/film/columns/leslie-grace-batgirl-canceled-interview-dc-studios-1235519751/

I never once cared for the premise for this film because of its shoehorning of Keaton and Simmons together. Still, I have to question Safran for publicly sh*tting on this film and how unreleasable it was when the writer - Christina Hodson - is reportedly on the writing committee for the half-assed DCU reboot.

Not exactly professional, is it?

Video of Keaton on set
https://twitter.com/ImRealSALTi/status/1671025336702713856?s=20 (https://twitter.com/ImRealSALTi/status/1671025336702713856?s=20)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzCuIEsaAAADUpG?format=jpg&name=900x900)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzCmDSpXwAAI94C?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzCqPmNaIAAB5Ui?format=jpg&name=medium)

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Tue, 20 Jun  2023, 05:35Video of Keaton on set
https://twitter.com/ImRealSALTi/status/1671025336702713856?s=20 (https://twitter.com/ImRealSALTi/status/1671025336702713856?s=20)

It's crazy how good Keaton looks in the suit, even now in his seventies. There's something about his face that's extremely complementary to the mask. No other actor has ever looked as cool wearing it.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Tue, 20 Jun  2023, 05:35(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzCuIEsaAAADUpG?format=jpg&name=900x900)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzCmDSpXwAAI94C?format=jpg&name=medium)

Two things we didn't get to see in The Flash: Keaton resuming his public Bruce Wayne persona, and the Batmobile in action. Batgirl would've delivered on both of those scores. It also would have given us another fight scene in the sequence where Batman saves Gordon. Just seeing Batman back in his element – the dark rooftops and alleyways of Gotham – would have made it worth watching.

This movie might well have been terrible, but I'd still like to see it. This was meant to be Keaton's fourth Batman movie (not counting his Aquaman cameo), so if The Flash was his Batman Forever then this would've been his Batman & Robin.

Think about it. Snow. Batgirl. A villain with a temperature-based weapon. Apparently it sucks. This really would've been Keaton's B&R.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Tue, 20 Jun  2023, 05:35(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzCqPmNaIAAB5Ui?format=jpg&name=medium)

Did they recreate the cathedral set from B89? :o

There's something so sad about seeing Keaton smiling in the tuxedo, knowing he filmed that Batgirl content in good faith.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 20 Jun  2023, 10:22This movie might well have been terrible, but I'd still like to see it. This was meant to be Keaton's fourth Batman movie (not counting his Aquaman cameo), so if The Flash was his Batman Forever then this would've been his Batman & Robin.

Think about it. Snow. Batgirl. A villain with a temperature-based weapon. Apparently it sucks. This really would've been Keaton's B&R.

There is a curiosity with this. Absolutely. A movie, featuring Keats as Batman, that is now "Lost Media", will always remain enticing to see. No matter the quality of the film itself. It's not exactly on the same level as "London After Midnight" for me, but it's still very intriguing.

Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Tue, 20 Jun  2023, 05:35(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzCqPmNaIAAB5Ui?format=jpg&name=medium)

Quote from: Silver NemesisDid they recreate the cathedral set from B89? :o

Sure looks like it.

(Looks like twitter deleted the pictures, but I have the same pics saved on my tablet)

Now I have to speculate on what the context was for this scene? Especially for such a specific location. Was Jack Nicholson's Joker mentioned or alluded to?!?

I don't think that's supposed to be Gotham Cathedral... the design is too different. I think it's a different bell tower or perhaps Barbara's clock tower.

There are few things I want to leak more than this, dammit. Maybe the assembly cut of Forever that Kevin Smith is showing off.

(https://i.imgur.com/aCr5InU.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/JNupzxX.jpg)

Word of advice for anyone who finds leaked images: always put them in an image hosting service. Never copy the links from Twitter, they will always get struck down due to copyright.

I find it very curious these images were leaked while The Flash is currently bombing hard at the box office. A little too much of a coincidence, I reckon. I remember the directors said last year they tried to find footage to salvage, but the film was already removed from the server. So, who leaked these images, and what was their motive for doing so?

I've read a leaked plot breakdown of the Batgirl movie, and I thought I'd post details about Batman's role in this thread in case anyone's interested. I won't bother marking this in white, since the film might never be released. But if you're holding out hope that it will be, and want to avoid spoilers, then stop reading now. If you're not bothered about spoilers, and you want to know what Batman's role would have been like, then read on. I can't guarantee that the following details are one hundred percent accurate. This is leaked info, after all. But I think it's mostly on point.

So the basic plot is about Barbara Gordon becoming Batgirl and avenging herself against Firefly, who started the fire in which her mother died. It sounds like her origin story in the film follows the comics fairly closely, with her making her costumed debut during a battle with Killer Moth after she attends a fancy dress party. According to leaks, one of the costumes she tries on before the party is a version of the Batman '89 suit. It's described as looking far too big on her, and there's a scene where she wears it in front of a mirror while impersonating Batman.

One person who attended a test screening said that the wintry Gotham looks like the version from Batman Returns. In general, the movie is said to be visually closer to the Burton films than The Flash was.

While Keaton effectively co-starred in The Flash, he reportedly has far less screen time in Batgirl. Batman plays a supporting role in the story and appears in five scenes altogether.

His first scene takes place at the beginning of the film and is set during Barbara's childhood, where she sees Batman and Gordon fighting a group of criminals. This is the scene they were filming when the first pics of the new batsuit appeared online. Keaton uses some kind of bat-spray during the fight as well as a batarang. His fight double is Ashley Beck, who also doubled for him in The Flash. There's no word on whether he's digitally de-aged, but based on Barbara's age Bruce would be in his forties or fifties at this point and still relatively in his prime.


Keaton's second scene takes place in the present, where he appears as the older Bruce Wayne. He's attending a public event in his playboy persona when Killer Mother appears and tries to assassinate him. Fortunately Batgirl shows up and saves the day.


This is what Killer Moth looks like in the movie. This is his stunt double.


After failing to assassinate Bruce, Killer Mother is murdered by Firefly.

Keaton's third scene occurs later when Batgirl is leaping across the rooftops. Batman snares her leg with his grapple gun and pulls her to the ground. He makes some remark about her needing to land on her feet and throws shade at her for being a novice. Batman then gets into the Batmobile and drives off, not realising that Batgirl has stolen his grapple gun while they were talking.


His fourth scene takes place on a rooftop where Batgirl summons him with the Bat-Signal. She's in over her head and needs help fighting Firefly. He tells her she needs to learn to cope on her own and leaves her to it.


His fifth and final scene takes place right at the end of the movie, after Batgirl has defeated Firefly. Barbara sets up her headquarters in a clock tower (like Oracle in the comics), which architecturally resembles the cathedral bell tower from the 1989 movie. Batman goes there and gives her a new armoured costume. The movie ends with Batgirl and Batman leaping off the building and activating their cape gliders. It sounds like the final shot of Batman Begins, where Baleman swoops over the camera with his glider, only here it's Batman and Batgirl gliding together.


So that's the extent of Keaton's role. It sounds like he would have had maybe ten minutes of screen time altogether. One scene as Bruce Wayne and four scenes as Batman. We would have seen him driving the Batmobile again, and we would've seen him fighting a gang on the streets of Gotham.

One screening attendee recently posted that the film was not as bad as reports have indicated. He said it was a decent 6/10 film that needed reshoots, just like any other movie does at that stage of production, but that it wasn't the irredeemable wreck the studio has made it out to be.

It's also been said that the film doesn't really make sense in light of The Flash's ending. The original Flash ending, featuring Keaton, was meant to set up Batgirl by establishing that the Flashpoint and DCEU realities have merged. That's why Simmons' Gordon is working with Keaton's Batman. But since the studio decided to use the Clooney ending instead, it would now be harder for them to release Batgirl without confusing the audience.

I'll end this post with the following pic, which I don't think we've discussed before now.


Is that an image of a young Oswald in the background, perhaps from his days performing with the Red Triangle Circus?

she also goes into an evidence room and takes a Catwoman colw to make her Batgirl mask from

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KKbXhw83oI&pp=ygUNYmF0Z2lybCBtb3ZpZQ%3D%3D

A film extra is suing WB for serious injuries she sustained during the filming of Batgirl:
https://deadline.com/2023/09/batgirl-film-extra-to-sue-warner-bros-hit-motorbike-glasgow-set-1235560645/

Poor woman. She says she's still in immense pain ever since the accident, and says she's better off dead than going through tons of surgeries. The film getting scrapped must've made her further depressed, because it was all for nothing in the end.

I hope this lawsuit comes to pass and forces those Warner bastards to pay her for all the damages.

The Drinker theorizes that the movie was wiped from the servers to prevent anyone from leaking it online.

I think I'm already on the record for being skeptical about that. But in case I'm not, then let me say that the insane liability that a leaker would face makes a leak very unlikely. Still, if that were to happen, the leaker(s) would get eternally blacklisted.

But honestly, that would be the least of their problems. It seems pretty obvious that WBD would unleash the lawyer kraken on anybody dumb enough to leak the thing. It wouldn't be pretty.

And for those reasons, leaking the entire film on a torrent site or something just doesn't seem as if it was ever very likely to happen.

No, I think WBD's motives were far more down to earth. Zack Snyder built a pretty powerful support base for releasing his version of JL by trickling out (usually b&w) stills from the movie. We all saw how that worked out.

By comparison, David Ayer has been a lot more restrained with releasing stills from his cut of Suicide Squad. But his efforts have not been in vain. His film has its fair share of supporters too.

And I think that's what somebody at WBD was trying to prevent. By quietly nuking the movie from their FTP (or whatever) server before making a big splashy announcement that the movie had been cancelled, they ensured that the Snyder/Ayer method of slowly leaking out images wouldn't be possible with Batgirl.

WBD probably believed that the outrage over canceling Batgirl would blow over with the news cycle. And that assessment appears to have been correct. Because when's the last time you heard anyone loudly demand the movie's release?

Even so, good find!

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 15 Nov  2023, 04:54By comparison, David Ayer has been a lot more restrained with releasing stills from his cut of Suicide Squad. But his efforts have not been in vain. His film has its fair share of supporters too.

He won't have those supporters for long if he keeps sucking up to Gunn and WBD.

https://youtu.be/wH8OTbb5wPM

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 15 Nov  2023, 07:51He won't have those supporters for long if he keeps sucking up to Gunn and WBD.

K dude, you REALLY need to get over this. The most valuable currency in Hollywood is ego. If you're not stroking the right egos, then whatever you're trying to do will not go forward. It looks like Ayer is playing the political game so that he can get what he wants. Which is the release of his version of the film.

Since Gunn himself directed Suicide Squad's warm reboot, Ayer is sort of navigating a political and professional minefield. There's literally nothing to gain from alienating Gunn. This should not be a complicated calculus for you to figure out.

In the final analysis, there are no good people in Hollywood. There are no role models. The best you can say is that some Hollywood people are less of a scumbag than others. So, pick your poison.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 15 Nov  2023, 09:15

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 15 Nov  2023, 07:51He won't have those supporters for long if he keeps sucking up to Gunn and WBD.

K dude, you REALLY need to get over this.

No, sorry. The truth hurts. There's a difference between playing the political game, and being a blatant cheerleader with nothing to show for it. The least that Ayer could do is not to insult people's intelligence by publicly saying how everything is all fine, how certain antagonists are in fact good people, and how WBD is a completely different company from the previous regime.

Look, I'm not stupid. For the sake of professionalism, I don't expect Ayer to condemn these studio people publicly. But FFS, don't be kissing their asses on social media either. Especially since the company has been a PR disaster up to now. There's a reason the Ayer cut movement isn't as strong as it used to be, because Ayer's messages are alienating the support. Snyder had every right in the world to condemn the studio, but to his credit, he let his photography do the talking instead. His approach actually galvanised support for his cut.

Ayer is better off not saying anything at this point because his approach isn't going to help him release his cut.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 15 Nov  2023, 09:15This should not be a complicated calculus for you to figure out.

Let me ask you something: if you look at how this company has been operating since it formed a year ago, do you honestly believe they're going to turn around and treat people like Ayer with courtesy and respect? I don't necessarily believe in the following narrative surrounding Coyote vs. Acme, but...if we're really led to believe the decision to overturn the shelving of that film wouldn't have happened if it weren't for industry creator backlash and boycott, then that film certainly would've joined Batgirl and Scoob. If the egos are THAT out of control in that industry and people have to take drastic measures to get what they want, then Ayer's feeble public attempts to get on good terms with the studio aren't going to work. Because studios like WBD have proven, time and time again, they are not friendly with the talent.

To be brutally honest with you, I think the opportunity for the Ayer cut is long gone. It has been seven years and two mergers since that theatrical cut came out, and for all the demand that people showed for that cut, the studio responses result in the fans being called "toxic" and "bots". Coming from a studio that's guilty of doing both things, that's rich.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 15 Nov  2023, 09:15In the final analysis, there are no good people in Hollywood. There are no role models. The best you can say is that some Hollywood people are less of a scumbag than others. So, pick your poison.

I wasn't born yesterday. I'm well aware that Hollywood is not the place to look up for role models, believe it or not. It demonstrated that many times by cherishing the likes of Weinstein and Polanski, and protecting the likes of Whedon and Gunn.

Nonetheless, I'd respect Ayer a lot more if he were to say "the Suicide Squad experience is a shame, but I've decided to move on with my career". Nowadays, I just don't have much sympathy for him desperately trying to appease that studio while lamenting how his cut never got to be seen. What's he going to do, keep saying this for the next seven years? At some point, you have to say enough with this charade, be honest, and move on.

Good find, SN.

Gosh, it sure is fortunate that Firefly waited for twenty years before trying to attack Gordon again.

Also, in any movie like this, you want your main hero to be the one who vanquishes the villain. Batgirl is the main hero. Firefly is the villain. So, Tony Bressi is the one who defeats Firefly? Whose brilliant idea was that?

Seems like the approach to take for a street level film like this would be to place an emphasis on stunts, fight choregraphy, practical effects and character dynamics. And it sounds like there's SOME of that. But not as much as you'd think. The way the movie is described, it sounds like the filmmakers were trying to do way too much with such a modest budget.

Because $90 million is not "big budget" anymore. Not in today's world. If WBD's goal is to make "big theatrical event films", then Batgirl isn't that at all.

When you come right down to it, I don't think this is a script that ever should've been given the green light to begin with.

I don't think WBD has any credibility to judge what's a big theatrical event after having a look at the sh*t they greenlit and allowed into theaters this year. Just when I thought the cringeworthy scenes I saw from The Flash weren't bad enough, there is a leaked post-credit scene of Ocean Master putting a cockroach into his hamburger and eating it in Aquaman 2. And during the movie, it appears that Arthur Curry gets urinated right in the mouth by his infant son. REALLY funny stuff, right?  ::)

It doesn't matter if WBD inherited movies from the previous Emmerich/Hamada era. Zaslav went on record in an earnings call last year vowing to make Black Adam and the rest of the 2023 slate better with more investment, as a means to justify Batgirl's shelving and outline his goal to "protect the DC brand". What's the result? Using Black Adam's underwhelming box office as an excuse to announce a shoddy attempt at a DC reboot, thus tanking the prospects of this year's movies even further, which were already badly affected by poor special effects and the continuous need to replicate the tired MCU comedy formula. So much for protecting the DC brand.

Now Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom will be the latest flop, barring some miracle. But even it that were to happen, it doesn't make the fact the enormous loss this moronic studio has incurred over the past year. They might as well have released Batgirl, because it's not like the concept they chose for The Flash deserved any more special treatment.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed,  1 Mar  2023, 08:26Leslie Grace has dismissed Peter Safran and Zaslav's claim the film got canceled because it was unwatchable and defended the project.
https://variety.com/2023/film/columns/leslie-grace-batgirl-canceled-interview-dc-studios-1235519751/

I never once cared for the premise for this film because of its shoehorning of Keaton and Simmons together. Still, I have to question Safran for publicly sh*tting on this film and how unreleasable it was when the writer - Christina Hodson - is reportedly on the writing committee for the half-assed DCU reboot.

Not exactly professional, is it?

https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinematic/comments/18wbpw6/james_gunn_releases_a_photo_of_some_of_the_dcus/

Yes, that's right. Despite Batgirl being shelved and dubbed as an embarrassment by Zaslav and Safran, they still give Christina Hodson a job. Not to mention the fact she already has two box office bombs under her DC resume - Birds of Prey and The Flash.

The late Christopher Lee said it best about upward failure.

https://youtu.be/lrMEhO3ofXw

And to think I was told by somebody here that WB is in serious business of making money. ::) Any money they make is in spite of their efforts.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 15 Nov  2023, 09:15

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 15 Nov  2023, 07:51He won't have those supporters for long if he keeps sucking up to Gunn and WBD.

K dude, you REALLY need to get over this. The most valuable currency in Hollywood is ego. If you're not stroking the right egos, then whatever you're trying to do will not go forward. It looks like Ayer is playing the political game so that he can get what he wants. Which is the release of his version of the film.

Since Gunn himself directed Suicide Squad's warm reboot, Ayer is sort of navigating a political and professional minefield. There's literally nothing to gain from alienating Gunn. This should not be a complicated calculus for you to figure out.

Yeah...about that:

https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=3967.msg70031#msg70031

Are you so desperate for engagement with your blatherfest posts that you have to single me out directly since singling me out quietly didn't get you the interaction you wanted?

Here's what I know. I've got a life, a divorce, child custody, a career and a living situation that I have to figure out. Of all the things vying to be my #1 problem, you're not even in the top 500.

Now, you seem to enjoy posting away on threads that apparently nobody else cares about. So, by all means, continue doing so. Don't let the fact that literally everyone is ignoring you stand in your way.

We good here? Did you finally get enough attention?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  4 Jan  2024, 18:41Are you so desperate for engagement with your blatherfest posts that you have to single me out directly since singling me out quietly didn't get you the interaction you wanted?

Here's what I know. I've got a life, a divorce, child custody, a career and a living situation that I have to figure out. Of all the things vying to be my #1 problem, you're not even in the top 500.

Wow...where the hell do I start with this?

Actually no, I wasn't "desperate for engagement", I was just having a light-hearted poke at something you said before because of certain news that just broke out. Believe it or not, there was no malice intended. In hindsight, I should've anticipated you would've taken that reply so personally. Sorry. I didn't mean to come across as petty, nor was I trying to offend you either.

That being said, that still doesn't justify your response. Sure, it's not lost on me that this pop culture crap is NOT THAT important compared to real-life issues. Especially personal issues. I understand you have a lot going on in your life at the moment, and if it's a difficult time right now then I wish you all the best and hope that things improve. But if that's not the case then spare me from your condescending putdown. My life isn't carefree as you might assume, so you're not exactly in my top 500 list of priorities either. I just spend some of my free time posting on this forum to share news and info, that's it. Beyond that, I have my own issues to work out, so your situation isn't unique.

I couldn't care less about the others who outright ignore me because a lot of those people are not innocent, but you and I never had any real problems before. Sure, we disagreed with each other many times, but neither of us resorted to any malicious personal attacks or name-calling. Up until now, I thought things were cordial. But now that you made it very clear how you feel about me and how I annoy you with my "blathering", feel free to ignore me going forward if you wish and I will return the favour in kind.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  4 Jan  2024, 18:41Now, you seem to enjoy posting away on threads that apparently nobody else cares about. So, by all means, continue doing so. Don't let the fact that literally everyone is ignoring you stand in your way.

We good here? Did you finally get enough attention?

Dude, you just replied to a comment I posted in another thread only a day or so ago. You may not have replied to me directly, but you didn't outright ignore what I said either. Well, don't bother from now on. I won't reply to you anymore either. I'm not wasting my time on people who are pettier than I am.

What's become clear is that people are tired of drama relating to the DCEU--a product line which is now dead. Studio politics on the part of Warner Brothers were not new in the case of the DCEU, and it's just what happens in the industry, it always has and always will. It's the nature of business.

David Ayer and Zack Snyder were not treated especially poorly compared to others, and people who insist on beating that dead horse are looked at with annoyance, whether it's openly stated here or not. The conspiracies, the posturing, the whining--it's time to move on from it. The fact that only one person here is still talking about it (and prettymuch never gets replied to anymore) is the proof.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Sat, 13 Jan  2024, 02:13What's become clear is that people are tired of drama relating to the DCEU--a product line which is now dead. Studio politics on the part of Warner Brothers were not new in the case of the DCEU, and it's just what happens in the industry, it always has and always will. It's the nature of business.

David Ayer and Zack Snyder were not treated especially poorly compared to others, and people who insist on beating that dead horse are looked at with annoyance, whether it's openly stated here or not. The conspiracies, the posturing, the whining--it's time to move on from it. The fact that only one person here is still talking about it (and prettymuch never gets replied to anymore) is the proof.

Yeah, it's weird, because I get it, I really do: I understand why people are so vocal and have so much invested, but at the same time, I just don't care about studio drama/politics. Sure, sometimes I'll mention it if it's part of the discussion I'm in, but for the most part, I just avoid it, because that's not what I'm interested in. I care more about the characters.The entire reason why I come to comic forums is to talk about the actual characters. But that's just me. I know other people like Hollywood drama, so I try not to say anything about it. And again, sometimes I do get into it, so I can be a hypocrite in that regard.

But at the same time, this is the Batgirl thread, and since the movie never came out, I guess that's all there is to talk about?

Quote from: Travesty on Sat, 13 Jan  2024, 02:29But at the same time, this is the Batgirl thread, and since the movie never came out, I guess that's all there is to talk about?

Sure, but there's only so many times people can repeat the same talking points before it gets ridiculous. Especially when no new ground is being covered. In my opinion, discussion on Warner Bros.' ineptitude (real or imagined) should be localized to a thread where that is the entire topic, instead of constantly being brought up in other topics. Every DCEU topic here has simply become one person posting minor new tidbits, segueing into the same tired complaints. Nobody else cares.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Sat, 13 Jan  2024, 02:13What's become clear is that people are tired of drama relating to the DCEU--a product line which is now dead.

That is the essence of the thing. As you say, the Snyderverse is dead. That's showbiz! I'm not super happy about that. But nobody who matters cares what we think around here.

In the final analysis, and unlike some other participant in this thread, I think it's best to find things to enjoy rather than cry in my beer over what might have been. In my case, I've been reading (and enjoying) Green Arrow comic books (Jeff Lemire's GA run is awesome, btw), watching a bunch of different horror movies and listening to the bands that I've always loved.

Life's too long to spend it constantly having tantrums about Hollywood drama that none of us can control.

I feel you. I largely don't anticipate anything seriously anymore. Whatever it is will come out when it's ready. I'm not wishing my life away for anything. In the meantime I'm perfectly content with enjoying what I already have, and that stuff never fails to entertain. New content comes and goes and isn't what you want it to be anyway - case in point The Flash.