Hey guys,
I came across this video and thought it was interesting. Hope you guys enjoy and comment.
https://youtu.be/LfkmwgU9E_U
Interesting and thanks for sharing, but it only confirms to me how important it is that the music changes with each interpretation of Batman/Superman/other comic characters.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 12 Feb 2017, 12:51
Interesting and thanks for sharing, but it only confirms to me how important it is that the music changes with each interpretation of Batman/Superman/other comic characters.
I understand what you mean. However, I feel it is important that any music interpretations of the character should embrace Elfman's Batman's five-note Motif as well as Williams motif for Superman. Music in film these days is becoming more and more forgettable and generic. Despite all the effort put in to make the music sound fresh and new it's in a sad way losing the spirit of what makes these characters great. Shirley Walker understood this when working on the animated series as well as Mask of the Phantasm.
I'm fine if a composer wants to write new music just so long as they keep true to the tone and spirit of the character's motif. We have yet to see any film score composer give us anything remotely thematic or iconic as John Williams or Danny Elfman respectively. To me their themes are Batman and Superman.
They're good themes, but they've had their day. Every generation gets their own Batman.
Elfman didn't adhere to the 1966 show when he wrote his 1989 soundtrack.
He did his own thing.
I agree a composer should stay true to a character's spirit and tone. But I don't think any future composer should have to embrace any past motif. It should be about capturing the character in any way they see fit.
Junkie XL's theme sounds like Batman. Christopher Drake's TDK Returns theme sounds like Batman. Elliot Goldenthal's theme sounds like Batman. And so do others I haven't mentioned. Whether or not they're inferior is personal opinion. But we have a lot of different musical options to choose from now, which I think is great.
Elfman didn't have to adhere to the 1966 show because the tone of that show was in direct contrast of what Burton was doing in 1989.
Elfman and Williams scores are Thematic and Timeless and they're day never tires.
Hans Zimmer, Junkie XL, and Christopher Drake, all fall short when it comes to Batman. They may sound like Batman to you, but they are seriously lacking that special iconic sound that helps cement the character to his rightful movie and be Batman.
Hans Zimmer scores for the Dark Knight Trilogy and Junkie XL score for BvS could easily fit in the world of Robocop, The Expendables, and any other generic action film.
Christopher Drake score for The Dark Knight Returns was okay with handling the vibe of an 80's period sound, however it still lacked an iconic theme and it's 80's sound dates the music.
Elliot Goldenthal made a better effort with his scores for Batman Forever and Batman&Robin they had a thematic quality that was fitting for Joel Schumacher's style. But unlike Elfman it lacks that timeless quality and gothic sound.
Don't get me wrong I like Goldenthal's score, but I feel it's not the true sound of Batman.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 12 Feb 2017, 14:42Junkie XL's theme sounds like Batman. Christopher Drake's TDK Returns theme sounds like Batman. Elliot Goldenthal's theme sounds like Batman. And so do others I haven't mentioned. Whether or not they're inferior is personal opinion. But we have a lot of different musical options to choose from now, which I think is great.
I think the question should be whether or not the music serves the film in which it's used. For Junkie, Goldenthal, Elfman, Zimmer, etc, yes they do. But Goldenthal's music would be ill-suited for B89 and Elfman's scores would clash horribly with TDK.
What I dig about Junkie XL's stuff is how Wagnerian it is. The movie is already big and expressive and operatic so the loud, bombastic Junkie XL theme for Batman is perfect. There's an argument that Junkie's work actually diminishes Zimmer's in BVS. In the end, I think Zimmer made the right choice in giving up superhero movies from now on. He's an incredible talent but there's merit to the idea that he was losing his mojo.
Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Sun, 12 Feb 2017, 15:57
Elfman didn't have to adhere to the 1966 show because the tone of that show was in direct contrast of what Burton was doing in 1989.
Same goes for the other live action Batman films, video games and animated movies. You have to fit the footage and the vibe it gives off. As the blender of colors rightly states:
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 13 Feb 2017, 02:15
I think the question should be whether or not the music serves the film in which it's used. For Junkie, Goldenthal, Elfman, Zimmer, etc, yes they do. But Goldenthal's music would be ill-suited for B89 and Elfman's scores would clash horribly with TDK.
Elfman's great, but I'm not going to pretend the other themes don't have merit. I'm a believer the slave mentality to John Williams and Richard Donner crippled Superman for quite some time. And we are still seeing the repercussions of that with open rebellion against new interpretations of themes and characterisations.
Thankfully Batman moved beyond 66 show, and continues to progress as a brand into the future. The past can be
a guide, just as Junkie XL's theme resembles Goldenthal in parts. But I don't think the past should be
the rule.
I hate to say it but Elfman's Batman to the Rescue theme doesn't fit the chase scene in BvS. The Descent into Mystery fares a little better towards the end though.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 13 Feb 2017, 05:46
Thankfully Batman moved beyond 66 show, and continues to progress as a brand into the future. The past can be a guide, just as Junkie XL's theme resembles Goldenthal in parts. But I don't think the past should be the rule.
Agreed. Another example is Shirley Walker had collaborated with Danny Elfman's 1989 score. And while she definitely paid homage to Elfman for BTAS, she still managed to create a distinctive and memorable theme for that show.
I love the B89 theme as anyone else, but I don't see why it HAS to be the "end all, be all" of every interpretation. As long as it continues to be operatic and atmospheric, and not a droning, military anthem like Zimmer and Howard's, it's fine by me.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 13 Feb 2017, 02:15
Elfman's scores would clash horribly with TDK.
I hear this claim a lot and I can't help but feel that it's mainly due to people lacking understanding on how the score would work. I'm a musician and composer and one of the things I love to do is compose and play music that is Batman related. Everyone thinks that Elfman's score wouldn't work because they all hear the main title from 1989 and see it as having an old fashion sound. However, his five-note Bat motif is truly timeless and can fit an almost any era of sound. There are many different kinds of ways to score Batman's music while still incorporating his five-note motif. I literally have performed and composed different variations of the Batman Theme while incorporating Hans Zimmer modernistic style from Batman Begins/TDK and merging it with Elfman's Bat Motif. And let me tell you when scored correctly and in the right context of sound Elfman's scores do not clash horribly with TDK.
I also want to add that I'm not against composers who want to write new music, but keep in mind we are dealing with the same character. It's like we wouldn't change Darth Vader's theme, The Terminator, Michael Myers (Halloween), James Bond, Rocky, Indiana Jones, etc etc.
Burton, Nolan, and Snyder all treat Batman the same "Dark and Serious" when you get down to it. It's still a man dressed up as a bat fighting criminals. None of these directors were looking to camp up the character in any way, shape, or form. I do appreciate every composer putting they're own dynamic sound to the mix but in the end of the day we are still dealing with the same character that is Batman. And in my own opinion Danny Elfman and Shirley Walker helped define the musical language of the Bat.
Quote from: THE BAT-MAN on Mon, 13 Feb 2017, 13:54
I literally have performed and composed different variations of the Batman Theme while incorporating Hans Zimmer modernistic style from Batman Begins/TDK and merging it with Elfman's Bat Motif. And let me tell you when scored correctly and in the right context of sound Elfman's scores do not clash horribly with TDK.
I kinda understand what you're getting at. Somebody edited the chase scene in BB by adding Elfman's Batman to the Rescue theme in the background. And the music really does give the entire action scene a lift and make it much more exciting than Zimmer and Howard's dull score. It actually flows surprisingly well.
https://youtu.be/FObwX9reKhI
But as you say, it's all about putting the music in the right context. Again, I thought Descent into Mystery flowed fine when the Batmobile returns to the Batcave in that BvS fan edit, but the chase scene and the rescue theme didn't really mesh. I don't think all of Elfman's music, whether it's B89 or BR, could fit together with large portions of other interpretations.
I don't see how that disproves my point. Nolan wanted a menacing, and at times trippy, tone to that sequence. While the editing is extremely well done, the music changes the tonal trajectory Nolan wanted that scene to take.
The two-note Zimmer Batman motif expresses darkness. Elfman's Batman theme is part darkness, part heroism. Introducing Elfman's score into that scene might have interesting creative ramifications... but those remain ramifications in opposition to what Nolan wanted.
That video demonstrates Elfman's music can function in that scene... a point I don't think I ever denied. What I did deny (and am right about) is that using Elfman's music changes the tone Nolan wanted for his film (and for that scene). That video bears me out.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 14 Feb 2017, 12:53
I don't see how that disproves my point. Nolan wanted a menacing, and at times trippy, tone to that sequence. While the editing is extremely well done, the music changes the tonal trajectory Nolan wanted that scene to take.
The two-note Zimmer Batman motif expresses darkness. Elfman's Batman theme is part darkness, part heroism. Introducing Elfman's score into that scene might have interesting creative ramifications... but those remain ramifications in opposition to what Nolan wanted.
A lot of fanboys would take offense that you would describe Zimmer's Batman theme as dark but not heroic. Considering my disdain for that version of the character, that theme fits quite well then.
Going back to the BvS Batman score, it has steadily grown on me. It reflects the many moods of Batman's story in the film. Off the top of my head, I can match the feeling of a lot of title tracks in this music:
- melancholy (Beautiful Lie),
- tension (Vigilante),
- brutality (the near entirety of Black of Blue),
- cynicism (the New Rules track),
- and relentlessness (the Do You Bleed? and Fight Night tracks).
A score doesn't have to copy Elfman's style, but the score for BvS is awful. Wonder Woman's theme sounds like it belongs in a Battletoads movie. Batman's theme is not a theme at all. Zimmer's theme for Superman is barely present at all, save for a few somber notes here and there. It's phoned in. It's bland. It's just music for the sake of having music. That's not what a good film score is.
Quote from: GoNerdYourself on Thu, 20 Apr 2017, 15:47A score doesn't have to copy Elfman's style, but the score for BvS is awful. Wonder Woman's theme sounds like it belongs in a Battletoads movie. Batman's theme is not a theme at all. Zimmer's theme for Superman is barely present at all, save for a few somber notes here and there. It's phoned in. It's bland. It's just music for the sake of having music. That's not what a good film score is.
Zimmer's Superman theme is Zimmer being Zimmer. He freely admits that he was burned out on superheroes by the time BVS came along. I enjoy his MOS work but I don't disagree when he says it's time for him to step aside and make room for someone else.
Junkie XL's Wagnerian Batman theme is pure genius though. I love it. In fact, I love all of Junkie's Batman music in BVS. He has a couple of themes he returns to through out the score and it's developed beautifully. "Beautiful Lie" is the most popular track from the BVS score for a reason.
I'm not going to defend or praise the Junkie XL Batman theme or the Zimmer Superman theme again. I've done that enough and people know where I stand. But the Wonder Woman theme is fantastic. It has a hummable melody, is full of energy and has a strong base with those drums. At first I thought it sounded off. But when I saw it in the movie? It simply clicked and hat tune got stuck in my head. I loved it, and I'm confident enough to say it has become a fan favorite in a relatively short space of time. It's fun and feel good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqFpD7tq-jQ