Watching Batman V Superman I couldn't help but get the feeling that these films could be connected, or even to the Burton Schumacher franchise as a whole (even though they weren't)
- Bruce running away and falling into the cave during his parents funeral is one big thing
- Seeing Zorro (its different from Burton and established in the comics but there are the only two films to explore it)
- The Giant Bat. I know people are saying it's Man Bat but I think it's supposed to more of the "giant scary bat figure" that is Batman. Also when I saw that scene the first thing that come to mind was "what kind of a person has a Bat on the Brain"
- Two suits. I know batman has alot of suits but having a Second special suit later on in the movie reminded me of the 2 suits per movie in the Schumacher era
- Cinematography it's kind of silly but they do share some similar cinematography with the off balance shots and such and my brother pointed out that alot of the way that Batwing was shot had a schumacher feel
What do think? Is there anything that made you think "Batman Forever"?
Any associations between this film and the Burton movies would turn me against BvS even more. >:( I might eventually give this film a chance, assuming it is its own thing and a one-off in no way connected to the world that came before it. But I'm fed up with having to embrace this film on other people's terms. >:( It's bad enough as it is.
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 08:32
- Bruce running away and falling into the cave during his parents funeral is one big thing
The similarity is hard to ignore. What I liked about both versions is the image of the bat made Bruce understand how powerful of a symbol the animal is and how fearful it can be, without becoming completely afraid of it like in BB. Bruce's lines about wanting to strike terror among criminals in BF is more or less in tune to his intentions in the Golden Age comics. Whereas in BvS, he becomes mezmerised by bats as they help him get back up on the ground. From thereon in, he found his purpose in life during a time of mourning.
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 08:32
- The Giant Bat. I know people are saying it's Man Bat but I think it's supposed to more of the "giant scary bat figure" that is Batman. Also when I saw that scene the first thing that come to mind was "what kind of a person has a Bat on the Brain"
I'd say that nightmare tells us how being Batman has consumed him psychologically. Like in the cave fall scenes, both BF and BvS are inspired by the frightening image of the bat as shown in Frank Miller's comics (The Dark Knight Returns perhaps more so than Year One). Of course, the only difference is TDKR show Bruce falling into the cave before his parents were murdered.
(https://www.batman-online.com/features/1348933413_tdkrcave.jpg)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.playbuzz.com%2Fcdn%2Fa1ca14a7-fa36-4294-b9c9-a9d01abc5e77%2F4b49137c-f6cd-4689-9254-754edadef455.jpg&hash=1802e7a45017b882ca44b9c39f8cb3620d3426a2)
A perfect continuity would be:
Batman Begins -> Batman -> Batman Returns -> Batman Forever -> Batman & Robin -> Batman V Superman
(Ignore TDK, TDKR & Suicide Squad)
That's my official Batman movie timeline. 8)
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 11:50
A perfect continuity would be:
Batman Begins -> Batman -> Batman Returns -> Batman Forever -> Batman & Robin -> Batman V Superman
(Ignore TDK, TDKR & Suicide Squad)
That's my official Batman movie timeline. 8)
Nice idea, but you'd have to change the continuity between BB and B89 to make it fit together.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 12:55
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 11:50
A perfect continuity would be:
Batman Begins -> Batman -> Batman Returns -> Batman Forever -> Batman & Robin -> Batman V Superman
(Ignore TDK, TDKR & Suicide Squad)
That's my official Batman movie timeline. 8)
Nice idea, but you'd have to change the continuity between BB and B89 to make it fit together.
How? It actually matches up perfectly. You have the origin of Batman. In B'89 we don't see Batman's origin. You get the tease at the end with the Joker card. Who has Joker cards in B'89? JACK NAPIER. It makes perfect sense.
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 13:44
How? It actually matches up perfectly. You have the origin of Batman. In B'89 we don't see Batman's origin.
You might have forgotten Bruce witnessing his parents being murdered by Jack Napier. ;) Sure, it may not be a comprehensive origin story, but the backstory was still explored.
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 13:44
You get the tease at the end with the Joker card. Who has Joker cards in B'89? JACK NAPIER. It makes perfect sense.
Yes, the Joker cards can match up to Jack Napier (although Jack didn't become flamboyant until he became the Joker, so Gordon's "taste in the theatrical" line at the end of BB wouldn't gel), but don't forget BB had Joe Chill responsible for murdering the Waynes. Not Jack. Plus, both endings to BB and B89 had the Batsignal introduced and would've conflicted with each other, Gordon had never met Batman before during the Axis Chemicals scene, whereas they began an acquaintance in BB. Besides, the first act of B89 portrayed Gotham City believing Batman was more of a urban legend, rather than a known force to be reckoned with by the end of BB.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 09:50
Any associations between this film and the Burton movies would turn me against BvS even more. >:( I might eventually give this film a chance, assuming it is its own thing and a one-off in no way connected to the world that came before it. But I'm fed up with having to embrace this film on other people's terms. >:( It's bad enough as it is.
Don't worry its pretty clear these are separate timelines. It's just a few things I thought of when watching the movie
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 14:04
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 13:44
How? It actually matches up perfectly. You have the origin of Batman. In B'89 we don't see Batman's origin.
You might have forgotten Bruce witnessing his parents being murdered by Jack Napier. ;) Sure, it may not be a comprehensive origin story, but the backstory was still explored.
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 13:44
You get the tease at the end with the Joker card. Who has Joker cards in B'89? JACK NAPIER. It makes perfect sense.
Yes, the Joker cards can match up to Jack Napier (although Jack didn't become flamboyant until he became the Joker, so Gordon's "taste in the theatrical" line at the end of BB wouldn't gel), but don't forget BB had Joe Chill responsible for murdering the Waynes. Not Jack. Plus, both endings to BB and B89 had the Batsignal introduced and would've conflicted with each other, Gordon had never met Batman before during the Axis Chemicals scene, whereas they began an acquaintance in BB. Besides, the first act of B89 portrayed Gotham City believing Batman was more of a urban legend, rather than a known force to be reckoned with by the end of BB.
Ok, some good points.
Joe Chill - remember the scene in B'89 is a flashback/memory and not literal. It's the same with the scene in Batman Forever. Bruce Wayne remembers it differently each time.
Gordon - it's possible he was pretending not to know Batman, since 'officially' he is a criminal
Urban Legend vs "known force" - that's debatable
The Bat Signal - I grant you that, but it still wasn't 'officially' adopted by the city at that point in BB
Jack's "flamboyancy" - that's debatable :D
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 10:19
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 08:32
- Bruce running away and falling into the cave during his parents funeral is one big thing
The similarity is hard to ignore. What I liked about both versions is the image of the bat made Bruce understand how powerful of a symbol the animal is and how fearful it can be, without becoming completely afraid of it like in BB. Bruce's lines about wanting to strike terror among criminals in BF is more or less in tune to his intentions in the Golden Age comics. Whereas in BvS, he becomes mezmerised by bats as they help him get back up on the ground. From thereon in, he found his purpose in life during a time of mourning.
I actually like how both Batman Forever and BvS consolidated the "Bruce falls into the cave" and "Bruce sees the bat and gains inspiration" scene by having him see the bats after his parents' deaths rather than before. Almost universally, none of the Batman unproduced scripts or movies have adapted the bat flying through the window scene from 1939. Perhaps filmmakers find it too cheesy?
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 21:53
Almost universally, none of the Batman unproduced scripts or movies have adapted the bat flying through the window scene from 1939. Perhaps filmmakers find it too cheesy?
If that's the case they are wrong, it is epic if done right (like in the "Year One" movie).
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 18:48
Joe Chill - remember the scene in B'89 is a flashback/memory and not literal. It's the same with the scene in Batman Forever. Bruce Wayne remembers it differently each time.
I see what you're getting at...Bruce Wayne is completely screwed up in the head. I can definitely see the logic behind that. It would explain his out of character behavior in BB i.e. recklessly destroying anything in his path while driving the Tumbler and killing people despite supposedly having a moral code.
Then, his memory over his parents would become even more repressed and unreliable over time as we see in B89 and BF, until he makes peace with it and finds a sidekick in Robin; guiding him and preventing him from making the same mistake as he did by becoming a killer. The closure over losing his family would be completed once Barbara/Batgirl gets involved and Alfred is cured, as Bruce no longer feels alone. Until Robin's death and the Metropolis incident sends him over the edge again.
I'm still not totally enthusiastic over it because it only makes the repressed memory plot point in BF even more muddled. But I do like how this interpretation would convey that you'd have to be completely insane to dress up as a bat to fight crime. Makes it more believable.
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 18:48
The Bat Signal - I grant you that, but it still wasn't 'officially' adopted by the city at that point in BB
Whether the Batsignal was adopted by the city or not wasn't my point though. Everybody had to have been aware of Batman's existence once the Batsignal lights up in the sky above Gotham City by the end of BB. Whereas in B89, the signal was turned on for the first time. It wouldn't make sense for the public to see the signal in one movie, but not be aware of its existence in the next one. The continuity in this area simply doesn't match well together.
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 18:48
Urban Legend vs "known force" - that's debatable
Is it? Batman's existence was played down when Alexander Knox tried to interview Detective Eckhart and Gordon. Gordon even tells all his cops to keep Batman's interference in the Axis Chemicals incident quiet so it doesn't alert the media. Vicki Vale teamed up with Knox to prove that Batman did exist.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the other points. :)
Quote from: Catwoman on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 23:35
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 21:53
Almost universally, none of the Batman unproduced scripts or movies have adapted the bat flying through the window scene from 1939. Perhaps filmmakers find it too cheesy?
If that's the case they are wrong, it is epic if done right (like in the "Year One" movie).
Nonetheless, it's a sentiment that seems to be shared among most creative people in Hollywood, as Tim Burton himself ridicules the window scene in the comics:
Quote
You can't just do, 'Well, I'm avenging the death of my parents - Oh! A bat's flown in through the window. Yes, that's it. I'll become a Batman!' That's all stupid comic book stuff and we don't explore it at all. He dresses up as a bat because he wants to have an amazing visual impact. It all gets away from the fact he's just being a simple vigilante, something I always loathed about the character. He's creating an opera wherever he goes to provoke a strong, larger-than-life reaction. He switches identities to become something else entirely, so why wouldn't he overdo it?
Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=PXWbtU-85RYC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=You+can%27t+just+do
:-[
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 1 May 2016, 01:26
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 18:48
The Bat Signal - I grant you that, but it still wasn't 'officially' adopted by the city at that point in BB
Whether the Batsignal was adopted by the city or not wasn't my point though. Everybody had to have been aware of Batman's existence once the Batsignal lights up in the sky above Gotham City by the end of BB. Whereas in B89, the signal was turned on for the first time. It wouldn't make sense for the public to see the signal in one movie, but not be aware of its existence in the next one. The continuity in this area simply doesn't match well together.
How do you know it was turned on "for the first time"? We also don't know if "everybody" was aware of Batman's existence, just because the batsignal was turned on once.
QuoteQuote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 18:48
Urban Legend vs "known force" - that's debatable
Is it? Batman's existence was played down when Alexander Knox tried to interview Detective Eckhart and Gordon. Gordon even tells all his cops to keep Batman's interference in the Axis Chemicals incident quiet so it doesn't alert the media. Vicki Vale teamed up with Knox to prove that Batman did exist.
I'm not debating that he was an urban legend in B'89. Just that he was considered a 'known force' by the end of BB. Certainly by The Dark Knight, he was a 'known force', though.
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 11:50
A perfect continuity would be:
Batman Begins -> Batman -> Batman Returns -> Batman Forever -> Batman & Robin -> Batman V Superman
(Ignore TDK, TDKR & Suicide Squad)
That's my official Batman movie timeline. 8)
Man of Steel and the BvS prologue in Metropolis must take place before Batman & Robin, then, in order to explain this line:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfFIsZUmm8g
;D
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 1 May 2016, 16:06
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 11:50
A perfect continuity would be:
Batman Begins -> Batman -> Batman Returns -> Batman Forever -> Batman & Robin -> Batman V Superman
(Ignore TDK, TDKR & Suicide Squad)
That's my official Batman movie timeline. 8)
Man of Steel and the BvS prologue in Metropolis must take place before Batman & Robin, then, in order to explain this line:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfFIsZUmm8g
;D
You win
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sun, 1 May 2016, 13:23
How do you know it was turned on "for the first time"? We also don't know if "everybody" was aware of Batman's existence, just because the batsignal was turned on once.
I think it's pretty clear the signal has been recently delivered to the city at the end of B89.
Quote from: Catwoman on Sun, 1 May 2016, 22:35
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 1 May 2016, 16:06
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 11:50
A perfect continuity would be:
Batman Begins -> Batman -> Batman Returns -> Batman Forever -> Batman & Robin -> Batman V Superman
(Ignore TDK, TDKR & Suicide Squad)
That's my official Batman movie timeline. 8)
Man of Steel and the BvS prologue in Metropolis must take place before Batman & Robin, then, in order to explain this line:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfFIsZUmm8g
;D
You win
^This. I can't believe I forgot about this scene. :-[
The Superman thing actually works in my favour. Let's say the events of Batman and Robin occur after Man of Steel.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 2 May 2016, 08:43
Quote from: OutRiddled on Sun, 1 May 2016, 13:23
How do you know it was turned on "for the first time"? We also don't know if "everybody" was aware of Batman's existence, just because the batsignal was turned on once.
I think it's pretty clear the signal has been recently delivered to the city at the end of B89.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si-fSefzEiI
But Gordon made the signal in BB. Not Batman!
And your point is? BB has nothing to do with B89.
I know. It's just an idea for a fanedit I had.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 2 May 2016, 14:22
And your point is? BB has nothing to do with B89.
True, and BvS has nothing to do with BF. :)
What have I done? :D :D :D
This next didn't seem worthy of a thread by itself and this thread is the closest I could find.
The general consensus is you could never make Batman Forever today. And that may be true of elements of BF's marketing and media tie-ins but in general BF is a fairly timely film by modern standards. The cast weren't as famous when they signed up for the movie in 1994 as they would be by the time the movie came out and, God knows, thereafter.
The movie has a fun, spunky tone to it that never gets overwhelmed with darkness. It puts Batman through a real emotional character arc but it never gets overwhelmed with the heaviness of its own subject matter.
Nearly everything about BF seems like it could just as easily be made by Marvel Studios today. If a cameo appearance of some kind was made by some other DC character, it'd be just about perfect by modern standards.
DC "fans" would still complain about it, of course, because deep down in a place they don't talk about on podcasts, they don't actually want DC movies to be made at all. But putting that undeniable truth aside, yeah, BF is scarily prescient for where comic movies would ultimately go.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 27 Jun 2016, 00:03
DC "fans" would still complain about it, of course, because deep down in a place they don't talk about on podcasts, they don't actually want DC movies to be made at all. But putting that undeniable truth aside, yeah, BF is scarily prescient for where comic movies would ultimately go.
Especially given the response to BvS, it seems the DC fan is destined to be the misunderstood loner fighting their corner. But hey, so be it. DC films are few and far between in comparison to the McDonald's assembly line of Marvel, so whenever the time comes for Batman or Superman to have the cinematic limelight, it's a special thing. I make no secret I was nearly crying when Beautiful Lie was playing and we saw the Snyder version of the Wayne murders. It felt so
mythic. I've seen Thomas and Martha get whacked so many times in various media. But Snyder made it feel like the first time. The brief snippets - a pistol barrel closeup, a bullet falling to the ground, the pearls breaking, etc. I get chills just typing this. Batman was being born in front of my eyes.
It may be because I really enjoy Batman's world, but Marvel hasn't elicited these types of emotions in me.