I'm not convinced, but this guy at 'Forbes' magazine seems to think so: http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2016/02/12/i-dont-worry-that-batman-v-superman-is-bad-but-rather-that-its-unconventionally-great/#35894efa2e13 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2016/02/12/i-dont-worry-that-batman-v-superman-is-bad-but-rather-that-its-unconventionally-great/#35894efa2e13)
By the way, he likes Batman Returns, a lot, and has similarly high expectations for BvS, yet worries that it might turn-off a lot of audience-members the way Batman Returns did.
And for what it's worth, I am also a fan, maybe the only other fan, of Sucker Punch. :-[
The link doesn't work for me, it redirects to a "Forbes Welcome" page with nothing showing...
That's annoying.
Okay, I've cut and pasted the article text:
QuoteI Don't Worry That 'Batman V Superman' Is Bad. I Worry That It Is Unconventionally Great
Scott Mendelson, Forbes Contributor, I cover the film industry.
Yesterday was a kind of "good news, bad news" day for Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. The good news is that Warner Bros. (or someone connected to Warner Bros., since I presumed they were going to wait until Monday morning's Good Morning America event) dropped the most explicitly crowd-pleasing trailer yet. There is a conversation to be had about whether or not they made the Lone Ranger mistake (too many okay trailers, capping off with a great final one), but that will wait until I see it on a big screen in the near future. The other issue was a much-publicized video chit-chat via HitFix's Drew McWeeny which highlighted what a lot of us have been hearing about the film. Namely that Warner Bros. is nervous, that Ben Affleck's Batman (and Jesse Eisenberg's Luthor) is testing better than the other elements, and that there may be big changes/delays to the already announced DC Extended Universe if this thing doesn't hit big next month.
For the record, I have not seen the film, and, as a lifelong DC Comics fan and general Zack Snyder fan (I'm the freak who likes Sucker Punch and That Owl Movie), I am rooting like crazy for Zack Snyder to have pulled this thing off and prove us all to be idiots. But truth be told, my fear is not that the film will be bad. I disliked Man of Steel and life went on even if I immediately regretted purchasing the soundtrack prior to seeing the movie. No, my fear is that the movie is good, really good in an individualistic and distinctive fashion. I fear that even if it fails it will fail while attempting something genuinely interesting with the superhero sub-genre, and that the very things that make it interesting are the things currently turning off would-be preview audiences and studio executives.
I worry that the allegedly poor screening results are because it's full of boldly fantastical imagery and big ideas that challenge easy assumptions about superhero movies and their place in pop culture. I worry that audiences will grow weary of engaging characters played by great actors (Holly Hunter, Amy Adams, Jeremy Irons, Ben Affleck, etc.) engaging each other in both moral debates and quirky conversation while the would-be audience members merely want to see a Ben Affleck's "God-Dammed Batman" kicking ass for 140 minutes. That's a simplification, but the first two trailers promise something really different, while the last two seem to be more about convincing audiences that it's not as different as they might fear. I am afraid that Zack Snyder has made his Batman Returns and that the audience at large will deliver unto him the same reaction that Tim Burton suffered twenty-four years ago.
Today we all (right-thinking folks) hold up the second Batman movie as a near-masterpiece of comic book cinema. But back in 1992 it was pillared for its grim fairy tale mythology, grotesque violence, frank sexual content, and overly adult thematic elements. This was way before the normalization of the so-called R-13, so the film's borderline R-rated content and pitch-black tone was a huge controversy that summer, especially in light of McDonalds including the film in their Happy Meal promotions. Despite earning $162 million in America and $266m worldwide (compared to $252m/$411m for Batman), it was considered a massive disappointment and we had a number of (hehehe...) "Can this franchise be saved?!" articles from Entertainment Weekly and the like. Three years later, we got the light, more kid-friendly, and altogether less challenging Batman Forever courtesy of a game Joel Schumacher.
There is a history of sequels allowing their directors to dive headfirst into their own id with mixed results. If Batman was 40% studio/60% director (as Burton has often claimed), then Batman Returns was pure unfiltered Tim Burton. And sadly audiences didn't quite respond to that. Ditto the "we're in a bad place right now" Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom from a post-divorce George Lucas and a "wanting to go dark" Steven Spielberg. And for that matter, ditto Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. The first film was a Michael Bay film with the guiding hand of executive producer Steven Spielberg, but the sequel was full-blown Bay. Obviously it was a huge $836m-grossing hit (as for that matter was Temple of Doom, with $333m back in 1984), but the third installments all had certain adjustments to make sure the films were either "better" or more conventionally crowd-pleasing. Hence Transformers: Dark of the Moon (a somewhat more serious narrative) and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (lighter, more emotional, somewhat reminiscent of Raiders of the Lost Ark).
A better example is The Matrix Reloaded, where the Wachowskis overdosed on the very things fans claimed to love about the first film (elaborate martial arts sequences, naval-gazing philosophy, twisty narratives, and challenging ideas) and yet audiences and critics quickly turned on the film. Yes, it was a massive smash ($742 million worldwide, still the biggest R-rated hit ever), but The Matrix Revolutions suffered horribly (still a solid $427m worldwide) and the legacy of the Matrix franchise was forever tainted. You can even make the case that Star Wars Episode One: The Phantom Menace was unfiltered George Lucas and that Attack of the Clones was a "course correction," but I still think Phantom Menace is much better than Attack of the Clones.
Sometimes a director going all-in for a franchise sequel works for audiences (The Dark Knight, Spider-Man 2), sometimes it does not (Batman Returns, The Matrix Reloaded). And I wonder, comparing all four trailers, whether or not the real issue isn't that the movie is bad in a conventional sense but rather that, without Chris Nolan as a hands-on producer this time out, it's truly the so-called Holy Trinity filtered through the mind of the guy who gave us Sucker Punch. I find that notion incredibly exciting, even if it doesn't work, but I imagine it would be terrifying to studio executives and many a general audience member.
But in all of those other examples the other thing at stake was the specific singular franchise, not an entire ten-year expanded universe plan. And it's doubly terrifying because it's not just a singular franchise at stake this time out. Hence the danger of so-called connected universes. In a normal world, where every franchise is merely responsible for itself, the potential failure of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, either financially or in terms of buzz/word-of-mouth, would merely be a matter of either abandoning ship or making course corrections.
Warner Bros. responded to Batman Returns by hiring Joel Schumacher to direct the more audience-friendly Batman Forever and the franchise was (temporarily) saved. But this is a post-Avengers world. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice isn't merely a Man of Steel sequel but rather a glorified backdoor pilot for Justice League, the entire fate of the DCEU is at stake in a way that it would not be if the film were merely responsible for the stand-alone success of a stand-alone Superman franchise.
If the worst-case scenario comes to pass, there are solutions of course. Namely delaying Justice League and stressing that the upcoming solo films (Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, etc.) absolutely stand on their own and aren't necessarily going to play like Dawn of Justice. And a Ben Affleck The Batman movie remains their ever-present "get out of jail free" card. But I would imagine the pressure for this film to succeed would be significantly less, and the consequences of its relative failure noticeably less severe, if it were merely Zack Snyder's sequel to Zack Snyder's Man of Steel which happened to have Batman and Wonder Woman cameos. Instead it's an all-in superhero team-up event that has been sold as not just one movie or part of one franchise but rather the cornerstone of Warner Bros./Time Warner Inc.'s DC Extended Universe/next great IP-driven hope for the next decade.
That's the irony of all of this, come what may. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice may be great and may be huge, or it may be terrible and may be a relative financial failure. But what grand unfortunate irony it would be if the film didn't click with audiences for the very reasons that made it unique and special, and the very thing done out of potentially short-sided/short-term interest (turning a Man of Steel sequel into a Justice League prologue) is the very thing that dooms us all. I don't worry that Zack Snyder made Batman & Robin, but rather that he made The Lone Ranger and that I'll have to spend the next five years defending it. How good it has to be and how much money it has to make may turn out to be two mutually exclusive things in the end. And while it doesn't have to make $1 billion to be a hit, that's for another day. Wowsers, the next six weeks are going to be fascinating to watch. Here's to hoping for the best.
The link works, you just have a website ad in front of it. Note the option to go to the article top right of your screen. Regarding the article itself...Until I see the movie, it's hard to know if there are any relevant comparisons between the two treatments.
That being said, on the surface I DO get what the author is generally referring to, which is a less than appealing profile of our heroes, (even our villains), in an effort to show us there are not allot of differences between the two sides outside of a definition of what their violence stands for and who it's aimed at. But if this is indeed going to be a similar trait shared with Batman Returns, then the wisdom of why these films get made at all needs to be reexamined.
At the end of the day, this is a superhero movie. Studios ultimately make them to make big money off of merchandise and hopefully a reasonable payday at the box office after the bills gets paid. So the appeal factor needs to be high to move the merchandise. Sure there is a new standard that resides in these films today which dictates the average ticket buyer wants more than eye candy for two hours. They want a story and if it involves human drama all the better. They don't mind being asked to buy into a new concept in varying degrees as long as that pageantry and reverence for the hero still abounds. In other words they still want their superhero moments without it getting lost in a pretentious shout out about what's wrong with the world.
So until this movie is released, we really don't know what the balance of those qualities will be. Does this movie get bogged down in it's own social quagmire, so much so that it can never rise above it's own self awareness? Or does it offer some social perspectives while trying to remain true to the action adventure gauge to control it's pacing and keep the story vibrant and colorful for the spectator? Is this going to be like a roller coaster ride of comic book fantasy or a second installment of the Watchmen with new costumes where everyone's job is to be troubled in a way that makes them virtually unlikeable? With Snyder it's really a crap shoot.
He can shoot allot of scenes that, broken apart without context to the bigger story, look really good in a trailer. But once you attach it to the rest of the story, it sometimes loses it's luster and becomes something entirely different. I'll be honest here and say, I really don't know what we have (yet) because what history has taught me is to never trust Snyder at face value. Sometimes he hits it well, other times he's about as far away from the mark as a person can try to be. We'll see how this plays.
I didn't have any option when I first tried loading it, it was just a page with the title "Forbes Welcome" and nothing showing. Could've been my adblocker messing it up or something else.
Anyway, thanks for pasting the content. Interesting read for sure, and I do hope "B v S" will turn out to be a classic. And for the record I didn't think Man of Steel was bad, and I had seen Watchmen and 300 from Zack Snyder.
I think he considered many possible outcomes though I would say almost certainly that the film will be a success.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 12 Feb 2016, 18:45I'm not convinced, but this guy at 'Forbes' magazine seems to think so: http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2016/02/12/i-dont-worry-that-batman-v-superman-is-bad-but-rather-that-its-unconventionally-great/#35894efa2e13 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2016/02/12/i-dont-worry-that-batman-v-superman-is-bad-but-rather-that-its-unconventionally-great/#35894efa2e13)
By the way, he likes Batman Returns, a lot, and has similarly high expectations for BvS, yet worries that it might turn-off a lot of audience-members the way Batman Returns did.
And for what it's worth, I am also a fan, maybe the only other fan, of Sucker Punch. :-[
I don't think I dig that implication at the end that Batman & Robin is bad. It rocks. That's an unconventional movie that's disregarded. I like Batman Returns, but I wouldn't call it challenging. It's a gothic movie that has some nonsensical stuff in it, but you just go with it because it kinda fits with the tone.
God bless you! God bless everyone!
Quote from: Dagenspear on Fri, 12 Feb 2016, 20:14
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 12 Feb 2016, 18:45I'm not convinced, but this guy at 'Forbes' magazine seems to think so: http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2016/02/12/i-dont-worry-that-batman-v-superman-is-bad-but-rather-that-its-unconventionally-great/#35894efa2e13 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2016/02/12/i-dont-worry-that-batman-v-superman-is-bad-but-rather-that-its-unconventionally-great/#35894efa2e13)
By the way, he likes Batman Returns, a lot, and has similarly high expectations for BvS, yet worries that it might turn-off a lot of audience-members the way Batman Returns did.
And for what it's worth, I am also a fan, maybe the only other fan, of Sucker Punch. :-[
I don't think I dig that implication at the end that Batman & Robin is bad. It rocks. That's an unconventional movie that's disregarded. I like Batman Returns, but I wouldn't call it challenging. It's a gothic movie that has some nonsensical stuff in it, but you just go with it because it kinda fits with the tone.
God bless you! God bless everyone!
Well said! He must be one of the last holding on to that desire to hate B&R. He needs to give it up. And nope, there has never been a Batman movie that was challenging. The measure is more of how enjoyable they are from installment to installment.
Quote from: Wayne49 on Fri, 12 Feb 2016, 20:39Well said! He must be one of the last holding on to that desire to hate B&R. He needs to give it up. And nope, there has never been a Batman movie that was challenging. The measure is more of how enjoyable they are from installment to installment.
I'm not a hater but I don't know many people who have a good word to say about Batman & Robin. It's generally voted one of the worst films ever in such polls (not saying I agree but that's just how it is).
And I don't know what you mean by challenging but a smart, intellectually-engaging Batman movie is possible, and arguably a few of them have already been made.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 12 Feb 2016, 21:29
Quote from: Wayne49 on Fri, 12 Feb 2016, 20:39Well said! He must be one of the last holding on to that desire to hate B&R. He needs to give it up. And nope, there has never been a Batman movie that was challenging. The measure is more of how enjoyable they are from installment to installment.
I'm not a hater but I don't know many people who have a good word to say about Batman & Robin. It's generally voted one of the worst films ever in such polls (not saying I agree but that's just how it is).
And I don't know what you mean by challenging but a smart, intellectually-engaging Batman movie is possible, and arguably a few of them have already been made.
I was simply building off what Dagenspear said, which is he doesn't feel any of these films in the series have been challenging to comprehend, whereas the author of this editorial seems to think differently. I don't feel Batman Returns is a terribly complicated film that is misunderstood. I just don't believe it was a treatment people wanted at that time. It was top heavy of social commentary which, for many, bogged down the entertainment value of the movie not only for themselves but for kids who should always be regarded in these stories. And when I say kids, I'm not suggesting it has to be dumbed down, just not overpowered with commentary that belittles the audience with a lecture on society. No matter the treatment, these are superhero movies. Directors need to get out of the way and let them breath on their own merits. Batman vs. Superman is not a heady title. The expectation from that seems fairly baked in. We don't need an Ang Lee-style profile on their state of minds. Stage the differences and let them rumble.
In terms of Batman & Robin, no I don't see that many people hating it anymore. It has it's detractors on Youtube and Clooney has his insecurity tour that never ends with making it the butt of his jokes. But the remaining cast have made peace with it and there have been countless people who have come forward and said it's part of their regular viewing when Batman is on the DVD menu. It's not Dark Knight because that was not the prescribed intent at that time. It's meant to be a comic book come to life. It's no more serious than Ron Howard's take on the Grinch. All I'm saying is most people have figured that out, and with all the various treatments of Batman today, from the renewed interest in the '66 series to cartoons that cater to the camp of the 60's like Brave and the Bold, B&R is no longer an odd outsider in this Batman universe. The people who overreact to it's style now look like fanatical nerds that are saying more about their own insecurities and obsessions than the treatment. Do you have to like it now? Of course not. But I believe most people get it now and don't have the hang ups with it that older generations did. Put a Blu ray copy into a 4K HDTV and watch it. It's probably the most eye popping movie in the entire series. Pure eye candy, which is not necessarily a crime.
I've seen Batman & Robin many times and I enjoy it for what it is. I'm certainly no die-hard hater of the film and I am often mystified why it tops so many 'worst film of all time' polls.
But these polls are often found on movie sites and magazines, and aren't particularly affiliated with comic-book or Batman fans, and yet, as I say, Batman & Robin is still often cited by many as among the worst films ever made (regardless of whether you and I think it actually deserves that label).
That said, I also realise that Batman Returns and Ang Lee's Hulk are not universally popular, although the former's 80% rating on Rotten Tomatoes does at least indicate that it has a big following and is far better regarded than Schumacher's follow-ups (and you certainly don't have to agree with this consensus). But for what it's worth, I like that Batman Returns and Hulk (2003) are relatively personal comic-book movies that come straight from their respective creators' hearts. If a comic-book movie isn't going to slavishly attempt to recreate the comic-books then why shouldn't they provide entirely unique and idiosyncratic takes on the characters they're adapting, and why shouldn't they offer some social and/or psychological commentary amidst all the punch-ups and carnage? Whatever else their faults, it's not as if one can argue that Batman Returns and Hulk (2003) are bereft of visual spectacle in addition to the commentary (and whilst Burton may arguably fall down when it comes to action sequences, the Hulk's mid-film fight sequence where the big green one flings a tank by its gun barrel is still one of the best CBM fight scenes yet by my reckoning). Yet the great thing about a film like Batman Returns is that it's sub-textual themes and characterisations linger in the memory far longer than the brainless action that is traditionally the stock and trade of most summer blockbusters.
And for what it's worth, even though I have many misgivings about the style and tone of Schumacher's Batman movies, I like that even Batman Forever, and to lesser extent Batman & Robin, offer some occasionally witty and insightful psychology (for all his faults, you can tell that the films' writer, Akiva Goldsman was the child of psychologists and thus had a real interest in exploring his characters' psychoses) and subtext alongside all the bad puns and dutch-angle-framed action sequences.
There's been a spate of articles in the last 24-48 questioning the viability of BvS. Frankly the tone I've noticed lately has been a bit of a shift to, son of a son, this movie might turn out okay after all! Who can know?
All I can say for sure is Affleck looks great as Batman, I'm looking forward to more of Cavill as Superman, I've wanted a movie like this my entire life, it's finally happening and the only person I care about this movie impressing is me. I've washed my hands of butt-hurt Prima Donners who will piss and moan until they get put into nursing homes that their beloved Donnerverse is finally gone and Marvel fans pretending to be DC fans castigating everything WB does, even when it's what they once claimed to want.
They deserve nothing better from me. I don't need someone who has never picked up a Superman comic book in his life but has seen Superman- The Movie a thousand freaking times telling me what's what.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Sat, 13 Feb 2016, 18:38
I've seen Batman & Robin many times and I enjoy it for what it is. I'm certainly no die-hard hater of the film and I am often mystified why it tops so many 'worst film of all time' polls.
But these polls are often found on movie sites and magazines, and aren't particularly affiliated with comic-book or Batman fans, and yet, as I say, Batman & Robin is still often cited by many as among the worst films ever made (regardless of whether you and I think it actually deserves that label).
That said, I also realise that Batman Returns and Ang Lee's Hulk are not universally popular, although the former's 80% rating on Rotten Tomatoes does at least indicate that it has a big following and is far better regarded than Schumacher's follow-ups (and you certainly don't have to agree with this consensus). But for what it's worth, I like that Batman Returns and Hulk (2003) are relatively personal comic-book movies that come straight from their respective creators' hearts. If a comic-book movie isn't going to slavishly attempt to recreate the comic-books then why shouldn't they provide entirely unique and idiosyncratic takes on the characters they're adapting, and why shouldn't they offer some social and/or psychological commentary amidst all the punch-ups and carnage? Whatever else their faults, it's not as if one can argue that Batman Returns and Hulk (2003) are bereft of visual spectacle in addition to the commentary (and whilst Burton may arguably fall down when it comes to action sequences, the Hulk's mid-film fight sequence where the big green one flings a tank by its gun barrel is still one of the best CBM fight scenes yet by my reckoning). Yet the great thing about a film like Batman Returns is that it's sub-textual themes and characterisations linger in the memory far longer than the brainless action that is traditionally the stock and trade of most summer blockbusters.
And for what it's worth, even though I have many misgivings about the style and tone of Schumacher's Batman movies, I like that even Batman Forever, and to lesser extent Batman & Robin, offer some occasionally witty and insightful psychology (for all his faults, you can tell that the films' writer, Akiva Goldsman was the child of psychologists and thus had a real interest in exploring his characters' psychoses) and subtext alongside all the bad puns and dutch-angle-framed action sequences.
I hear what you're saying and I respect your opinion, but for me, "polls" are a dime a dozen. When ESPN does a poll of the greatest Superbowl QB's of all time, should we take that as the last say on the topic? Of course not. In fact, most of these specials usually include players saying the list is completely wrong. So I think in the world of superhero films, no one should let their opinions fall on a preconceived notion that a poll from any site or magazine is the official count on the matter.
I'm a big fan of figure lines where on this one forum the topic of heroes is a daily occurrence (both as merchandise and on the panel graphic art form). It's a good cross section of posters. They have people in their teens to people like me in their 50's. Recently we revisited the topic of best and worst films in this genre (all time). Many had an extensive list of both categories. Do you know how many times B&R got listed in the worst? Twice. And when it was, Batman Returns was lumped in with it. Oddly the greatest offender from the Batman world in this poll was Dark Night Rises. After that you had the usual suspects like Electra, Catwoman, even Howard the Duck.
Now does this sampling mean my perspective is somehow "right" and the purists are just holding on to old hate? Not at all. But it's one of many places where the subject is broached and B&R is no longer a staple in the category. So I think if we're going to look into the groups that are actually having the conversation today and not just high brow, self-described "experts" whom have their own prejudices, I'm going to go more with the word on the street. Whether it aligns with my views or not is really immaterial. Quite the contrary, I'm accustom to being the lone wolf on all kinds of movies that fall into the least favorable category. I loved most Carpenter movies (produced, written, or directed) like Halloween II, Big Trouble in little China, or even the Thing loooooong before they found popularity with new generations. B&R has not done an about face in public perception quite to that level yet, but it's evolving for the better. It ceases to offend people and my kids (and grand-kids) I have raised like it. They understand what it is but embrace it for being fun. Sometimes that's enough.
So I believe what I'm ultimately trying to say about that movie is it's no longer this closet example of something no one can speak of. It's now in the conversation and attitudes are changing. Time is showing me that just like other films, this movie is no longer the scourge of the earth and people can relax and say they like it. I expect that to continue to evolve simply because expectations and attitudes continue to change with the glut of new treatments in this genre. When B&R was released, how many hero franchises were actively making movies? ONE...Batman. So the pressures and expectations were not only for Batman fans but the entire population of comic book readers. Fans were looking for validation and a movie that celebrated it's comic roots didn't exactly make a certain branch feel good about themselves, hence the almost personal hatred some exhibited. That's ancient history today.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 14 Feb 2016, 07:08There's been a spate of articles in the last 24-48 questioning the viability of BvS. Frankly the tone I've noticed lately has been a bit of a shift to, son of a son, this movie might turn out okay after all! Who can know?
All I can say for sure is Affleck looks great as Batman, I'm looking forward to more of Cavill as Superman, I've wanted a movie like this my entire life, it's finally happening and the only person I care about this movie impressing is me. I've washed my hands of butt-hurt Prima Donners who will piss and moan until they get put into nursing homes that their beloved Donnerverse is finally gone and Marvel fans pretending to be DC fans castigating everything WB does, even when it's what they once claimed to want.
They deserve nothing better from me. I don't need someone who has never picked up a Superman comic book in his life but has seen Superman- The Movie a thousand freaking times telling me what's what.
MOS wasn't very well done, whether it was by comics or not. I didn't find STM to be very well done either writing wise. Personally I liked Superman Returns myself and to just leave no doubts that I'm not Singer fanboy, I really liked X-Men 1 and 2, but not DOFP, and I'm not really into the look of XMA. And let's just be clear with another thing, I liked TDKT more than MOS and everything Marvel has put out, just to let you know that I'm not a Marvel fanboy. But TWS has come close to that. I also like the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies, Batman the animated series, liked Superman the animated series fine, liked Justice League and Unlimited, The Batman, Batman Brave and the Bold. I was a fan of Smallville. I like The Flash. I liked Arrow, not so much anymore. Agents Of Shield was pretty good last season, but I think it's fallen in writing quality. And I haven't wanted a Batman vs Superman movie. I always thought that rebooting Superman on his own wasn't a very good move and that should have rebooted both Batman and Superman together in a team up movie, introduce Wonder Woman at the end and show her movie later the same summer and pull out a Justice League movie in 2015 with Darksied as the villain. I'm telling you this to let you know that it's not a black and white issue and that those who dislike MOS aren't necessarily Marvel or Donner fanboys and making assumptions on what people deserve and talking about them isn't necessary and doesn't accomplish anything. I'm very sorry if I'm being harsh. Have a very good day.
God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life! God bless everyone!
Quote from: Dagenspear on Sun, 14 Feb 2016, 21:16MOS wasn't very well done, whether it was by comics or not. I didn't find STM to be very well done either writing wise. Personally I liked Superman Returns myself and to just leave no doubts that I'm not Singer fanboy, I really liked X-Men 1 and 2, but not DOFP, and I'm not really into the look of XMA. And let's just be clear with another thing, I liked TDKT more than MOS and everything Marvel has put out, just to let you know that I'm not a Marvel fanboy. But TWS has come close to that. I also like the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies, Batman the animated series, liked Superman the animated series fine, liked Justice League and Unlimited, The Batman, Batman Brave and the Bold. I was a fan of Smallville. I like The Flash. I liked Arrow, not so much anymore. Agents Of Shield was pretty good last season, but I think it's fallen in writing quality. And I haven't wanted a Batman vs Superman movie. I always thought that rebooting Superman on his own wasn't a very good move and that should have rebooted both Batman and Superman together in a team up movie, introduce Wonder Woman at the end and show her movie later the same summer and pull out a Justice League movie in 2015 with Darksied as the villain. I'm telling you this to let you know that it's not a black and white issue and that those who dislike MOS aren't necessarily Marvel or Donner fanboys and making assumptions on what people deserve and talking about them isn't necessary and doesn't accomplish anything. I'm very sorry if I'm being harsh. Have a very good day.
God bless you! God bless your family and everyone else in your life! God bless everyone!
That's interesting because I thought DOFP was the first time Bryan Singer made a comic-book movie I felt came close to capturing the tone and sense of character of its source material. X-Men and X2, I found to be rather dreary affairs, at least from a visual perspective, and felt to be rather small-scale and lacking in a sense of the epic. Plus, I didn't care for the way the series started with Wolverine, Storm and Rogue as opposed to the original School of Gifted Mutants team consisting of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Ice-Man, and the, in this case absent, Beast and Angel, and the countless number of subsequent retcons and total disregard for continuity that was arguably necessitated by the creative decisions made on the first few X-Men films.
As for Superman Returns, I felt that
was, for the most part, a visual treat but that it lacked in a purpose (the film was basically a follow-up to
and a remake of Superman The Movie, and basically amounted to a single question 'what if Superman had a kid?'), failed to do anything new or interesting with the characters, and worse was woefully miscast in places (Kate Bosworth was far too young and wan for Lois Lane, and Kevin Spacey should have been a slam-dunk for Lex but sadly chose to play the character as a retread of the winking comic-shyster Hackman had already given us with the Donner movies, not to mention, Brandon Routh was shackled in the main part by having to do an imitation of the peerless Christopher Reeve, rather than liberated to do something new with Superman, as Henry Cavill has thankfully been permitted).
Also, I don't understand the negativity towards Marvel, and the stigma towards so-called 'Marvel fanboys' since the MCU is finally and thankfully putting the fun and colour back into comic-book movies after a decade or so of dreary, colourless and 'gritty' CBMs no doubt attempting to escape Batman & Robin's shadow by throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and in getting rid of the camp and silliness, also taking away the fun and exhilaration a great comic-book movie should ideally deliver.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Sun, 14 Feb 2016, 21:42That's interesting because I thought DOFP was the first time Bryan Singer made a comic-book movie I felt came close to capturing the tone and sense of character of its source material. X-Men and X2, I found to be rather dreary affairs, at least from a visual perspective, and felt to be rather small-scale and lacking in a sense of the epic. Plus, I didn't care for the way the series started with Wolverine, Storm and Rogue as opposed to the original School of Gifted Mutants team consisting of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Ice-Man, and the, in this case absent, Beast and Angel, and the countless number of subsequent retcons and total disregard for continuity that was arguably necessitated by the creative decisions made on the first few X-Men films.
DOFP was a rehash of the basic plot beats of X2 really. I found the whole movie kinda drab. It lacked the exposure in it's background characters that the others had. And the lack of colorful characters in general did the movie no real favors for me, beyond Quicksilver, who really is used once. It's entire plot centered around a fully childish character, the plot devices made no sense, the plot of the first half of the movie was basically recycled for the second half and it reuses Magneto as a villain again instead of giving us anything new. I was personally frustrated that Master Mold wasn't in it and instead the controllers of the sentinels were evil businessmen. And the only characters who really evolve are Charles and Raven.
QuoteAs for Superman Returns, I felt that was, for the most part, a visual treat but that it lacked in a purpose (the film was basically a follow-up to and a remake of Superman The Movie, and basically amounted to a single question 'what if Superman had a kid?'), failed to do anything new or interesting with the characters, and worse was woefully miscast in places (Kate Bosworth was far too young and wan for Lois Lane, and Kevin Spacey should have been a slam-dunk for Lex but sadly chose to play the character as a retread of the winking comic-shyster Hackman had already given us with the Donner movies, not to mention, Brandon Routh was shackled in the main part by having to do an imitation of the peerless Christopher Reeve, rather than liberated to do something new with Superman, as Henry Cavill has thankfully been permitted).
I don't see that as the case really at all. Superman Returns was very much about Clark's lonliness and his inability to connect with humans, about he can live in the world, but never truly be connected to the humans. His son grants him that connection and the realization that he has in the movie that with a son, he's not alone anymore. Kate Bosworth is an actress. She may have been young, but the character wasn't. I don't see the problem. Michael Keaton wasn't really a physical dynamo and Brandon Routh, Henry Cavill and Christopher Reeve can't really fly. I highly doubt Ben Affleck is really capable of all that he's doing in the recent BvS trailer either. And Kevin Spacey's Lex was actually quite different as a character. He was much more serious, angry and jealous than Gene Hackman's Lex, who was more happy go lucky as a villain. I'm afraid no Superman will ever be able to do something new. It's all been done. At the moment I see Henry Cavill's as more like the Superman animated series. But I don't see a problem with being geeky. It's really as close as Superman having glasses being a disguise is going to get to being acceptable.
QuoteAlso, I don't understand the negativity towards Marvel, and the stigma towards so-called 'Marvel fanboys' since the MCU is finally and thankfully putting the fun and colour back into comic-book movies after a decade or so of dreary, colourless and 'gritty' CBMs no doubt attempting to escape Batman & Robin's shadow by throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and in getting rid of the camp and silliness, also taking away the fun and exhilaration a great comic-book movie should ideally deliver.
Fun and color have been in many superhero movies between B&R the TDKT. The Raimi SM films, the FF films and the first Ghost Rider had it. DD in 2003 had fun in it, though admittedly not much color. The same with X3. You could say they made it more popular though.
God bless you! God bless everyone!
Interesting talk from the inside...
http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/wb-rumored-be-worried-about-batman-vs-superman-justice-league-movie-universe-future
http://batman-news.com/2016/02/15/warner-bros-batman-superman-worried/
QuoteThey're more concerned about how the audience will respond to it, and how it will perform at the box office. BOF speculates that the mainstream audience is used to the "popcorn" movies that Marvel produces, and won't respond well to Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice's deep story that was written by an Oscar winner.
I understand the concerns in the first sentence. TDK Rises is pretty much regarded as being "not as good as the previous film" and Man of Steel's reception was pretty mixed. Then take in all the reactions to the casting news over time and I can see why WB might be worried about how audiences will like it.
But that speculation sounds like pretentious bullsh*t to me. I'm kinda sick of this notion that "DC makes deep films" when I haven't found a DC film to be any good in a while (though I still hope BvS is good).
The last trailer especially shows that BvS will be heavy on "popcorn" spectacle too. And let's not pretend that WB isn't trying to get to their own Justice League team up film as soon as possible and cash in on the whole shared universe concept. They're not out to make cinematic art. They're just as commercial as the other side. And there's nothing wrong with that, but BOF should stop twisting this into something that it's not.
Do you think BOF will turn on the new franchise, seeing that Jett treated TDK like his pet Batman film project?
I mean, I remember BOF posting against the idea of Batman being in the Justice League and joking about "Batman in space," so at least he'd be consistent.
Either way, I don't care. There are so many other fan-based comic book news websites now and sources for Batman news now and WB & Snyder will do what they want regardless what gets said at BOF.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 15 Feb 2016, 20:48
I mean, I remember BOF posting against the idea of Batman being in the Justice League and joking about "Batman in space," so at least he'd be consistent.
Either way, I don't care. There are so many other fan-based comic book news websites now and sources for Batman news now and WB & Snyder will do what they want regardless what gets said at BOF.
I gave up on BOF for a variety reasons. I wasn't able to access the forum. I was fed up with the anti-Burton/Batman Returns rhetoric. And this site fills most, if not all, of my fan needs. :)
I'd be more inclined to visit BOF if I felt that Jett was a bit more objective, although I do believe he's toned down the anti-Burton/BR of late, and started giving a voice to people who don't necessarily agree with him.
I think it's pretty normal for executives to carry a degree of concern when so much rides on one film. But at the end of the day, it's going to come down to whether ticket buyers fill enough seats for a period of time to spin this off into the planned properties they want to make. Lots of people financing a film of this size, so there are allot of pockets to line before they assume more risk for the next film, let alone a whole slew of them.
Plus you have to remember this genre is quickly evolving, as are the public's tastes. Look at the insane success of Deadpool? I saw that this weekend and it's nearly my favorite movie of all time in this genre. It just hit every note perfectly while still delivering a story and a incredible degree of action that completely satisfied my palate for these kinds of movies. But it was also something I had never seen before. I envision Guardians II writers scrambling to do a rewrite.
And while Avengers AOU was very successful, it definitely felt like a step backwards from the momentum that came from the first film. Winter Soldier was, in my eyes, a far superior film. And where I saw the first Avengers film three or four times in the theater, I only saw the sequel once and still haven't picked it up on Blu-ray yet. So the novelty of an ensemble cast of heroes is already a played out concept. Even the next Captain America film is going to have scores of heroes in it, so it kind of begs why even bother with another Avengers film at all?
So it's with all of these changes that BVS comes to the market with ideas that felt new three years ago. I know there is concern I might be selling some undercurrent of dislike towards this film. I'm truly not. When it comes to Batman, I have NEVER hated any film made with him. I like or love them all in varying degrees and make no apologies for it. But if there IS a bias I might carry into this film, it's my believe that it might take the character of Batman to save this film. We are seeing SO MUCH of him, it's becoming...well...suspect. The fact the final trailer showcases him more than anyone else really speaks to that suspicion.
In fact, if it ends up being mostly a Batman film, I might come out of this completely tickled and loving it. But if we've seen the majority of Batman's role in this movie through trailers, and the bigger part of the story is about society coming to grips with Superman in another Watchmen-style social lecture...well... this might be a long movie to grind through. When it comes to Snyder, I don't entirely trust him. As a director he either thrills me or bores me with stylistic overkill or pretentious metaphors best left to other projects.
I thought he messed up some key story moments with his version of Superman's origin and that really bothered me. Plus he even said he didn't care what the fans thought because he's not making this for them...? What an ego. So with Warner Brothers giving him full reign to do what he wants here, it feels like fertile ground for him to screw it up with his own "vision". The trailers show me allot of Batman, so I'm sold. Nothing more to say. But the rest of it? Fingers crossed it doesn't turn into an extended version of a video game. Give me lots of Batman and you likely have a happy sailor.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fscontent.fath3-2.fna.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-xtp1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F12718270_1177543948922359_5607501094014252190_n.jpg%3Foh%3D9b6e67f84aae9076a7fdc1b6835be28d%26amp%3Boe%3D57611FD7&hash=b17605da660ff8da30062db26738e3a1d5d140c8) (https://www.facebook.com/batmanonlinecom/photos/a.188532264490204.53055.120792104597554/1177543948922359/?type=3)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fscontent.fath3-2.fna.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-xtf1%2Ft31.0-8%2F12697364_10208522255123867_268704446306718835_o.jpg&hash=644200682c71ecca4e786b8e1d52e524a037d1dd)
(As for the thread's subject, don't know, but this article was an enjoyable read. Overall I enjoy what Mendelson writes about movies).
Nice comparison. Affleck looks huge in the suit. Meaty like TDK Returns Batman.
Quote from: Nycteris on Wed, 17 Feb 2016, 07:46
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fscontent.fath3-2.fna.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-xtp1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F12718270_1177543948922359_5607501094014252190_n.jpg%3Foh%3D9b6e67f84aae9076a7fdc1b6835be28d%26amp%3Boe%3D57611FD7&hash=b17605da660ff8da30062db26738e3a1d5d140c8) (https://www.facebook.com/batmanonlinecom/photos/a.188532264490204.53055.120792104597554/1177543948922359/?type=3)
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(As for the thread's subject, don't know, but this article was an enjoyable read. Overall I enjoy what Mendelson writes about movies).
That's kinda neat. While we're at it...
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsew3jwn00Hz5arSqfWHbwMa7BPX_onqbKQmOuYlJfUJsRhsNO)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTByVwh8FX6u6FzSZFV4O-SNZK62W3fG0vppX1gliquDxUHAmZq)
God bless you! God bless everyone!
A lot of people don't know that the grappling gun actually originated in the '89 film. Batman has always used a grappling hook but it was the '89 film where it was first used in a gun format.
Very cool pic of Affleck by the way. 8)
Yeah, it did originate to its true form in B89, but if you wanna get technical about it, Miller's Batman in TDKR used a rifle that shot out a huge spear that had a rope attached to it.