I know the question sounds provoking to most supporters of the Dark Knight, but I got this idea after probably the 10th time I watched Batman Returns. The thought is just based on what I believe are some (probably avoidable) bad decisions he made that had painful consequences for him: a brief summary for you to question!
1) Non-existent cooperation with Gotham Police.
Batman singlehandedly defeats the Circus Gang during their first assault in Gotham Plaza, which is great. However, he doesn't even attempt to cooperate with the Police to prevent further attacks, he doesn't share information, nor he tries to help them with the investigations. As a result, policemen don't really trust him and are ready to shoot him on sight when there's a slight possibility that he had actually pushed the Ice Princess off the ledge. He might have been framed by the Penguin and Catwoman for that murder, but he first put himself in a very ambiguous position by refusing every contact with law enforcement authorities.
2) Poor investigation on the relationship between Max Shreck and the Penguin.
A little more detective work could have given evidence that they were conspiring against the city. Bruce knew that Max's plan for the "power plant" was at least very suspicious, so when he publicly endorsed Oswald's run for major, it should have been obvious that, in order to stop them, he just needed to expose their connections. It should be noted that Selina, who apparently had no technical background on that field, was able to understand the inherent dangers of the power plant (Bruce also had access to the plans and blueprints). Similarly, Batman should have noted the strange "coincidence" of the Penguin's saving of the major's son.
3) The batrang.
This is possibly Batman's worst mistake. Since he couldn't stop the Poodle Lady from stealing his batrang, he could have at least told Commissioner Gordon (again point number one) that one of his devices had been stolen by a criminal gang and that it could potentially be used against civilians. Thanks to this advantage, the Penguin was able to frame him and turn the entire Police against him.
4) Catwoman.
Batman gives Catwoman a dangerous upper hand because he doesn't deal with her properly, with extremely painful consequences. First, he fell for the "How could you? I'm a woman!" trick just when he had finally managed to stop her. Second, by allowing her to explore his rubber suit with her clawed hand, he helped her find the weak spot of the armor she then punctured. I can understand he was confused by her seduction (which at one point bordered on fetishistic sex), but she had already proven to be a very deceitful foe and he should have neutralized her "weapons" first (i.e. when she caressed his face, she came very close to scratch him!). Finally, Batman hesitated too much during the "kiss under the mistletoe", especially when Catwoman began to openly ridicule him – instead, he clumsily tried to apologize and gave her one more opportunity to stab him.
5) The Ice Princess
I concede that rescuing her was very difficult, but he should have acted faster when he saw her tied up on the ledge.
Enjoy!
Batman should never be a team player with the police. Small occasions yes, very very very small. As far as I am concerned he's, well, Batman. He should not need backup from regular guys in SWAT vans on any circumstance even one against him. At least not in my day of the glorious Michael Keaton era. I'm not sure if your a recent fan Catbat or have been there with Keaton from the get go but I got the impression you may have been too exposed to the Nolan inspired Michael Mann cop dynamics of recent Bat films (in which it is part of the story Batman is almost a cop himself, especially when gathering evidence in The Dark Knight). It is precisely my main problem among a sea of similar problems with the Nolan film's. It is of course totally fine in the innocent days of the 1960's when Adam West and Neil Hamilton worked together constantly. Almost a "family dynamic" to the show more than police co-operation logic in my view however.
The Dark Knight Rises descended into it so much it felt like I was watching a friggin cop film. Kevin Smith seemed impressed, I wasn't. Not...one...bit. I'm reminded of a review of a later Star Wars picture where a commentator stated that light-saber fights and X-Wings battles have been replaced by Senate hearings and the like. Well this is similar to what has befallen Batman and I weep for younger fans who are starved of the excitement of the imagination I was thankfully given at their age. So instead of having Batmobiles turning into Batmissiles we instead have "likeable" John Blake suiting up in kevlar and running amok with shotgun bursts. Batman Returns avoiding police matters entirely may have some problems as you state quite rightly but in much larger areas of importance it is certainly more a blessing now than I ever realized at the time.
Frank Miller took issues with the TV show on many levels. He's wrong in my view to do so, the TV show is pure magic he cannot see. But one of those issues, which he viewed as the greatest mistake, was Batman having a badge: "You don't deputize Batman!". Christian Bale isn't deputized per se, but he might as well be.
Let's see what an early Waters script had to say about this:
EXT. CITY HALL--NIGHT
The Rolls rumbles past the steps of City Hall where The
Mayor, his staff, and Commissioner Gordon, out of their
costumes, come out to reflect up to the flashing bat
signal.
GORDON
Think he'll ever forgive us?
MAYOR
(matured)
Probably not. But he'll always
help us.
EXT./INT. THE WAYNE ROLLS-ROYCE--NIGHT
putters by the line of beaming citizens. Batman gives
off a snort and cynical smile to the rejoicing minions.
BATMAN
I guess this means we won.
Alfred slams on the brakes. The car lurches to a halt
just avoiding hitting Selina's cat, smugly sauntering
across the road.
EXT. THE ELEGANT PLAZA CLOCK--NIGHT
starts tolling the chimes of midnight.
EXT./INT. THE ROLLS--NIGHT
starts up again. Batman makes eye contact with Selina's
cat.
ALFRED
Sorry, sir and....Merry Christmas.
Batman pulls off his mask, becoming a moving mixture of
Man and Superman. He looks up to the flashing on and off
Bat signal.
BRUCE WAYNE
Sure.
EXT. THE BAT BEACON--NIGHT
flashes slower and slower as the viewer's viewpoint of
it moves closer and closer. It suddenly stops flashing,
leaving only the darkness of the night.
FADE OUT.
This thread raises an interesting but very upsetting point.
If Batman's negligence caused the Ice Princess to be kidnapped and killed he should NEVER have been allowed to continue crime-fighting ever again. >:( And he should have been sued by the Princess's family for his actions, especially since he is a vigilante operating outside any legal jurisdiction.
I like to think the reason why we never saw Michael Keaton's Batman again is because that was it for him and that following the events of Batman Returns he went into hiding, retired or better yet, was finally apprehended by the criminal justice system and made to account for his failings.
I also like to think that the Bat-signal shining at the end of the film was Gordon's attempt to get in contact with Batman and question and possibly apprehend him for his grievous errors. Why else would the signal be on after Batman finally defeated all the Red Triangle Circus Gang, not to mention The Penguin and Max Shreck? :-\
Just one correction however, the Ice Princess was not tied up on the ledge. Her feet/legs were free and she could easily have hopped off if she was so inclined:
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcaps.pictures%2F199%2F2-batman-returns%2Ffull%2Fbatman-returns-disneyscreencaps.com-8984.jpg&hash=31f9e72d6366425cd0578f632c3df20b1bc7b955)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcaps.pictures%2F199%2F2-batman-returns%2Ffull%2Fbatman-returns-disneyscreencaps.com-9015.jpg&hash=bd4a665277f2f1ebd39589f748f27ec8be3338f4)
That doesn't however excuse Batman telling her to not to move. ::) He should have encouraged her to move forward so that he was ready to catch her, regardless of how scared she may have been.
I stand by Dan Waters' early script, even if I don't like all that Batman did in this film.
QuoteGORDON
Think he'll ever forgive us?
MAYOR
(matured)
Probably not. But he'll always
help us.
This disgusts me. >:( Batman screwed-up. Why should
they forgive
him?
Because he did not kill the Princess. It was Penguin's scheme. :-\
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 17:52
Because he did not kill the Princess. It was Penguin's scheme. :-\
Firstly, how do they know?
Secondly, as Catbat says he shouldn't have lost the Batarang, and as soon as he did he should have informed the police. If the police knew that the Batarang had been stolen it would have thrown a spanner in the Penguin's plans to frame Batman and he might have had to give up on the plan, thus sparing the lovely Ice Princess from her doom. :(
They were both incompetent. A lot more than Batman was. In the Burton films, specifically in Returns, there's no one who is "ready to believe in good" or much "law and order" or "saving both". Batman in Batman Returns failed to save Selina from herself, and Penguin and Schreck, and of course the Princess, were dead.
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 18:14
They were both incompetent. A lot more than Batman was. In the Burton films, specifically in Returns, there's no one who is "ready to believe in good" or much "law and order" or "saving both". Batman in Batman Returns failed to save Selina from herself, and Penguin and Schreck, and of course the Princess, were dead.
But Batman was acting ultra vires (i.e. outside any power granted to him) and was thus unaccountable to the electorate. He should only have taken the law into his own hands if he could guarantee that he would do a better job than the elected officials.
But by taking on the Red Triangle Gang and Catwoman because of the property damage they'd caused ( ::) ) he provoked their wrath and their decision to kidnap and kill the Ice Princess. >:( This plan was of course facilitated thanks to Batman's incompetency in losing the Batarang. >:(
I know a lot of posters here will hate me for saying all this, but it's how I feel and I don't see how I'm wrong. :-\
It was the Penguin's plan and Catwoman cooperated with him, although she didn't know he wanted to kill the Princess. That Batman could've done more to save her and that he fell for the trap is another thing.
And I don't hate you for your opinion, even if I may disagree in part. :)
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 19:37
It was the Penguin's plan and Catwoman cooperated with him, although she didn't know he wanted to kill the Princess. That Batman could've done more to save her and that he fell for the trap is another thing.
He should have been delegitimised for that alone. >:(
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 20:07
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 19:37
It was the Penguin's plan and Catwoman cooperated with him, although she didn't know he wanted to kill the Princess. That Batman could've done more to save her and that he fell for the trap is another thing.
He should have been delegitimised for that alone. >:(
But the two bumbling officials, Gordon and the Mayor, could never have stopped the Gang, let alone Shreck or the Penguin. Batman, even if he didn't save the day, was still fighting against evil. Like the trailer said, if memory serves, the only one that can fight evil is a creature of the night.
So, I don't think Batman is a flawless character in this film, but that is also what makes him interesting.Same goes for Catwoman, and Penguin even. Shreck was a clear-cut villain, nothing to like about him for me, and may I remind you that Shreck "made" Catwoman in a similar way that Jack Napier "made" Batman.
Pretty sure I lost brain cells reading some of these replies. You can guess which ones.
The way he let his guard down with Catwoman was just asking for him to get his ass kicked. I don't think she was trying to hurt him so much as she wanted to embarrass him and prove to him (and more so herself) that she didn't NEED some Batman to come save her anymore. Once he let his guard down and she saw her opportunity, well, you all know what happened. Did he deserve it? Who knows. Take it from me boys, y'all give us an opening and we WILL exploit it. We may tickle you or we may tackle you or we may kick you off a rooftop. Depends on our mood at the moment. :)
I would attempt to write a coherent thesis for the Ice Princess part of it but coherency, logic, and general brainpower have gone out the window, obviously.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 20:07
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 19:37
It was the Penguin's plan and Catwoman cooperated with him, although she didn't know he wanted to kill the Princess. That Batman could've done more to save her and that he fell for the trap is another thing.
He should have been delegitimised for that alone. >:(
If we're going to condemn every negligent thing Batman has done on film then it should be including his reckless driving in armored vehicles that cause billions of dollars in property damage and endangered people's lives, refusing to kill the Joker and despite he killed Ra's al Ghul in the first film and lied to the public about Dent that gave Gotham a false sense of security.
But hey, at least Batman saved Gotham in the end, right? ;) Well, except in The Dark Knight.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 21:18
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 20:07
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 19:37
It was the Penguin's plan and Catwoman cooperated with him, although she didn't know he wanted to kill the Princess. That Batman could've done more to save her and that he fell for the trap is another thing.
He should have been delegitimised for that alone. >:(
If we're going to condemn every negligent thing Batman has done on film then it should be including his reckless driving in armored vehicles that cause billions of dollars in property damage and endangered people's lives, refusing to kill the Joker and despite he killed Ra's al Ghul in the first film and lied to the public about Dent that gave Gotham a false sense of security.
But hey, at least Batman saved Gotham in the end, right? ;) Well, except in The Dark Knight.
Don't bother attempting logic with this moron. He's blinded by his sick fascination with a fringe third string character in a movie. Nothing you say is going to crack through his ten inch thick skull.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 21:18
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 20:07
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 19:37
It was the Penguin's plan and Catwoman cooperated with him, although she didn't know he wanted to kill the Princess. That Batman could've done more to save her and that he fell for the trap is another thing.
He should have been delegitimised for that alone. >:(
If we're going to condemn every negligent thing Batman has done on film then it should be including his reckless driving in armored vehicles that cause billions of dollars in property damage and endangered people's lives, refusing to kill the Joker and despite he killed Ra's al Ghul in the first film and lied to the public about Dent that gave Gotham a false sense of security.
But hey, at least Batman saved Gotham in the end, right? ;) Well, except in The Dark Knight.
I'm not really that interested in the Nolan films. I think they're perfectly entertaining enough, but I don't feel any real affinity with them the way I do with the Burton ones, so this isn't a comparison between Batman '89/Batman Returns and TDK trilogy.
And I'm not talking about what happened to innocent civilians or criminals in TDK trilogy. I'm talking about what happened to one specific character in Batman Returns. :(
Quote from: Catwoman on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 21:13
Pretty sure I lost brain cells reading some of these replies. You can guess which ones.
The way he let his guard down with Catwoman was just asking for him to get his ass kicked. I don't think she was trying to hurt him so much as she wanted to embarrass him and prove to him (and more so herself) that she didn't NEED some Batman to come save her anymore. Once he let his guard down and she saw her opportunity, well, you all know what happened. Did he deserve it? Who knows. Take it from me boys, y'all give us an opening and we WILL exploit it. We may tickle you or we may tackle you or we may kick you off a rooftop. Depends on our mood at the moment. :)
I would attempt to write a coherent thesis for the Ice Princess part of it but coherency, logic, and general brainpower have gone out the window, obviously.
Catwoman's my favorite character in the film. And it helps that it's Michelle Pfeiffer, of course. And I think Keaton was the perfect Bruce for her Selina.
I don't have anything to add to the Ice Princess case either. Really, I have nothing more to say about it.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 7 Dec 2015, 21:18If we're going to condemn every negligent thing Batman has done on film then it should be including his reckless driving in armored vehicles that cause billions of dollars in property damage and endangered people's lives, refusing to kill the Joker and despite he killed Ra's al Ghul in the first film and lied to the public about Dent that gave Gotham a false sense of security.
But hey, at least Batman saved Gotham in the end, right? ;) Well, except in The Dark Knight.
He didn't kill Ra's. He allowed him to die, which is wrong, but it's not killing. Refusing to kill the Joker isn't a crime or negligent. Driving an armored vehicle didn't cause billions of dollars of property damage. But him being reckless in that situation was the point and if someone had gotten killed because of it, yes, he should be held responsible. But he didn't. And in TDK he did save the city by stopping the Joker from pressing that button to blow up the ferries.
God bless you! God bless everyone!
Wow. I'm disappointed in those insulting someone for talking about fictional character. Please be better than that. I'm sure you can be.
God bless you all! God bless everyone!
Quote from: Dagenspear on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 06:27
Wow. I'm disappointed in those insulting someone for talking about fictional character. Please be better than that. I'm sure you can be.
God bless you all! God bless everyone!
Those of us that have been here longer than six months (and dealt with repeated private messages on the matter on top of the forum posts) will understand why I said what I said. No offense, but you don't really know the situation my friend. God bless you too.
God bless America, and Europe, and the world.
First, Gotham, then, the world! :)
Quote from: Dagenspear on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 06:27
Wow. I'm disappointed in those insulting someone for talking about fictional character. Please be better than that. I'm sure you can be.
God bless you all! God bless everyone!
Thank you Dagenspear. :)
God bless you too.
Quote from: Catwoman on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 07:06Those of us that have been here longer than six months (and dealt with repeated private messages on the matter on top of the forum posts) will understand why I said what I said. No offense, but you don't really know the situation my friend. God bless you too.
The situation doesn't matter. Insulting someone over a fictional character isn't right. I'm sure that you can still be better than that though.
God bless you! God bless everyone!
Plus, I have agreed with Catwoman not to pm her any more by mutual consent.
We used to be friends and pm each other in amicable terms quite regularly. In fact I was the one that introduced her to the site. At the time it seemed she enjoyed speaking about the Ice Princess as much as I did. Since she's made it clear that she no longer feels that way, or maybe she never felt that way (but it's only more recently that she advised me of this), we have seized pm communication, and I have significantly decreased responding to her public messages. I still do so, as I did recently with respect to her comments regarding the ideal Lex Luthor, but since I consider such comments to be non-contentious I hope that she doesn't mind them. But I no longer post any reply to her that is potentially liable to end up in an argument, and I certainly don't discuss the Ice Princess with her.
However, I am entitled to discuss the character on the public boards, irrespective of her, and since I have been a member of this forum slightly longer than Catwoman I do think it would be rather unfair if she were to object to my right to raise this topic.
Sadly, I suspect other posters will no longer discuss this topic with me for risk of 'offending' her, which is highly unfair to me. But it seems there are various topics I am not allowed to discuss on this forum for risk of 'offending' certain posters. ::)
I don't want anyone to be mad with anyone here, but that is, it seems, impossible in practice.
Hello everybody,
first of all thanks to you all for the contributions than made this thread gain momentum - it's a clear proof that Batman had enough character development to start discussions on the effectiveness of his choices, which was the point of the issues I highlighted.
There's no doubt I'm among Batman supporters, but this time I asked myself if he always considered the ramifications of his decisions, and whether he was embarking himself in a crime-fighting crusade without the necessary lucidity or he was driven by more selfish desires.
For example, does anybody have a problem with the way he cut Catwoman so much slack? During their first fight it's clear that his hesitations were due to her being a woman, but he should have quickly realized she was using this bias against him. I don't buy the idea that his approach of limiting violence against Catwoman was purely idealistic either, since during her massaging the batsuit on the balcony he clearly enjoyed the seduction on an erotic level. It might seem a small detail, but Batman's indulging in the "pleasures" Catwoman was offering him allowed her to pierce the batsuit and to "escape" via a dangerous fall. This led to her alliance with the Penguin just to get vengeance (with far wider consequences for Gotham) and to play a crucial role in the Ice Princess' death. Plus, Batman had to fight with her again, and got stabbed by her claws a second time in the process.
It might sound provoking, but I believe that when Catwoman ridiculed Batman by saying that every woman he tried to save ended up dead or deeply resentful, she was forcing him to face the harsh truth: in the end if she was able to distract him from his mission through sex, people might think he wasn't exactly the hero Gotham needed.
I hope to have fuelled some further interesting exchanges, have fun!
I'd hate to think the Ice Princess needlessly died because Batman and Catwoman were indulging their sexual pleasures. >:(
Bruce was in love with Selina, wasn't he ? And Selina was in love with him. And so, Batman was attracted to Catwoman, even not knowing who she was, and so was Catwoman.
I think Catwoman should not have sided with Penguin, that is my problem.
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 15:38
Bruce was in love with Selina, wasn't he ? And Selina was in love with him. And so, Batman was attracted to Catwoman, even not knowing who she was, and so was Catwoman.
I think Catwoman should not have sided with Penguin, that is my problem.
Have you never acquainted yourself with someone for the means of accomplishing a goal only to realize later you never should have been within the standard blast radius of said person and chalked it up to experience? I rest my case. lol
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 10:49
Plus, I have agreed with Catwoman not to pm her any more by mutual consent.
In the interest of giving Dagenspear the full picture I'll add that it took repeated requests, then demands (and threats of reports of harassment) by me to get him to leave me alone for him to actually do so.
Quote
We used to be friends and pm each other in amicable terms quite regularly. In fact I was the one that introduced her to the site.
Yes we were friends and talked a lot my first few years here. And you know exactly why we fell out twice. I tried to bury the hatchet once, then you pulled your stunt a few months ago. "Fool me once..."
QuoteAt the time it seemed she enjoyed speaking about the Ice Princess as much as I did. Since she's made it clear that she no longer feels that way, or maybe she never felt that way (but it's only more recently that she advised me of this),
I certainly don't enjoy talking about her on your nauseating, obsessive level. I did and still do enjoy talking about the character (I even made a post about her recently that you seemed to have missed, thank God) but I reserve those discussions for other people who can view the discussion objectively, rationally, and don't come up with some moronic idea in response to another person's theories, like the following nugget:
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 15:18
I'd hate to think the Ice Princess needlessly died because Batman and Catwoman were indulging their sexual pleasures. >:(
Idiot.
QuoteHowever, I am entitled to discuss the character on the public boards, irrespective of her, and since I have been a member of this forum slightly longer than Catwoman I do think it would be rather unfair if she were to object to my right to raise this topic.
I've been here nearly seven years, I don't think the seniority card really applies any more. But nice try.
QuoteSadly, I suspect other posters will no longer discuss this topic with me for risk of 'offending' her, which is highly unfair to me. But it seems there are various topics I am not allowed to discuss on this forum for risk of 'offending' certain posters. ::)
You're not allowed to discuss them because A. they're basically against the rules and B. when they were discussed by other users you lost your sh*t and went on a ten-post rant and tried to get those users (one being me) banned.
Quote from: Catwoman on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 19:07
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 15:38
Bruce was in love with Selina, wasn't he ? And Selina was in love with him. And so, Batman was attracted to Catwoman, even not knowing who she was, and so was Catwoman.
I think Catwoman should not have sided with Penguin, that is my problem.
Have you never acquainted yourself with someone for the means of accomplishing a goal only to realize later you never should have been within the standard blast radius of said person and chalked it up to experience? I rest my case. lol
Not really, it was more like people like the Penguin tried to use me, and me just trying to help by doing what I thought was right. But no more Mr. Niceguy. Tony Zucco's gonna get what's coming to him. For all the Graysons! And Waynes! And Dents! Lol.
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 20:02
Quote from: Catwoman on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 19:07
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 15:38
Bruce was in love with Selina, wasn't he ? And Selina was in love with him. And so, Batman was attracted to Catwoman, even not knowing who she was, and so was Catwoman.
I think Catwoman should not have sided with Penguin, that is my problem.
Have you never acquainted yourself with someone for the means of accomplishing a goal only to realize later you never should have been within the standard blast radius of said person and chalked it up to experience? I rest my case. lol
Not really, it was more like people like the Penguin tried to use me, and me just trying to help by doing what I thought was right. But no more Mr. Niceguy. Tony Zucco's gonna get what's coming to him. For all the Graysons! And Waynes! And Dents! Lol.
Ug. Noble. Stupid, but noble.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldsfinestonline.com%2FWF%2Fbatman%2Ftnba%2Fepisodes%2F05scratchmyback%2F21.jpg&hash=38e04c4905545c1d7ef07d46a677987ff90c641f)
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 15:38Bruce was in love with Selina, wasn't he ? And Selina was in love with him. And so, Batman was attracted to Catwoman, even not knowing who she was, and so was Catwoman.
I think Catwoman should not have sided with Penguin, that is my problem.
They weren't in love. They were attracted to eachothers mutual destructive tendencies. Bruce tells Alfred in Batman Forever that he's never been in love before.
Quote from: Catwoman on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 19:40In the interest of giving Dagenspear the full picture I'll add that it took repeated requests, then demands (and threats of reports of harassment) by me to get him to leave me alone for him to actually do so.
That doesn't change anything. Insulting isn't the way to go. There's a better to be and we can all be that.
God bless you both! God bless everyone!
Quote from: Catwoman on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 19:40
In the interest of giving Dagenspear the full picture I'll add that it took repeated requests, then demands (and threats of reports of harassment) by me to get him to leave me alone for him to actually do so.
Don't play the harassment card with me.
You used to send me short pms completely unsolicited with passive-aggressive attempts to get a reaction from me.
And bear in mind that on this occasion you have attacked me. Until now, I've been pleasant to you. But if you don't like my comments regarding Batman v Superman or Batman Returns, that really is your problem. Not mine.
And no, I don't have seniority rights over you, but I sure as hell ain't going to leave this site before you, not least since I was the one who told you about this place to begin with. So if you're going to stay here, you better learn to put up with me. :)
I was never passive aggressive, I straight up told you exactly what I thought. And they were solicited by an idiotic remark you would make on the forum. Playing the "I told you about this place" card doesn't really work either. I'm pretty sure I would have found it on my own, eventually.
Anyway, I'm done addressing you, I think I've made my point about the kind of person you are. Sorry folks for the hostility but I just felt like a little dose of reality was in order. Back to your regularly scheduled programming. :)
Although I have plenty to say in response to your post, I'll let you have the last word, otherwise this argument will never end. I just want to make it clear that my silence should not be taken as a concession.
Nor mine.
Wow, I'm gone for a day and things get all tense around here, yeesh...
Quote from: Catbat on Tue, 8 Dec 2015, 15:13
For example, does anybody have a problem with the way he cut Catwoman so much slack? During their first fight it's clear that his hesitations were due to her being a woman, but he should have quickly realized she was using this bias against him. I don't buy the idea that his approach of limiting violence against Catwoman was purely idealistic either, since during her massaging the batsuit on the balcony he clearly enjoyed the seduction on an erotic level. It might seem a small detail, but Batman's indulging in the "pleasures" Catwoman was offering him allowed her to pierce the batsuit and to "escape" via a dangerous fall. This led to her alliance with the Penguin just to get vengeance (with far wider consequences for Gotham) and to play a crucial role in the Ice Princess' death. Plus, Batman had to fight with her again, and got stabbed by her claws a second time in the process.
While Batman did get seduced by Catwoman rather easily at first, don't forget that he was smart enough to upgrade his armour to make sure that he wouldn't get injured by her claws for a second time during the mistletoe scene.
As for criticisms for Batman not co-operating with police in Batman Returns, the same thing can be said for Mask of the Phantasm. Batman was wrongly accused for murdering the Zucco mob, and not once did he sought to work with the cops before or during the investigation to prove his innocence. In fact, you might even argue that it was much worse here than in BR because Batman knew there were people like the corrupt councilman Arthur Reeves and Det. Harvey Bullock who had an agenda to get rid of him.
Yep. Way I see it, the police can do their thing, but Batman will continue doing his thing. He knows he's on the right side of the fence even if they don't. And I guess that satisfies him. Like it is stated in TDK Rises, Bruce doesn't share his data or equipment with the police because he doesn't trust them. Another man's tool is another man's weapon. Batman is a seperate entity who isn't dictated to by anyone else, even though he's a defender of all that is good and decent.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 00:30
While Batman did get seduced by Catwoman rather easily at first, don't forget that he was smart enough to upgrade his armour to make sure that he wouldn't get injured by her claws for a second time during the mistletoe scene.
Right, I agree that Batman was able to reduce the damages inflicted by Catwoman's claws during the mistletoe scene, but I believe that was mainly due to the fact that she tried to stab him directly on his chest, where the armour is thick and solid. Still, she could puncture Batman, although less severely than the previous night (immediately after the stabbing, he grimaced with pain when he extracted the claw from the batsuit).
My guess is that the rapid upgrades Batman did to the armour made it more difficult for Catwoman to find a weak spot, so she simply attacked him where she thought she could hurt him most from her position. The previous night, Catwoman had decided to seduce Batman to gain time and explore his batsuit with her clawed hand and, remarkably, she could figure out that his flank was scarcely protected by sensually massaging him.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 15:12
Yep. Way I see it, the police can do their thing, but Batman will continue doing his thing. He knows he's on the right side of the fence even if they don't. And I guess that satisfies him. Like it is stated in TDK Rises, Bruce doesn't share his data or equipment with the police because he doesn't trust them. Another man's tool is another man's weapon. Batman is a seperate entity who isn't dictated to by anyone else, even though he's a defender of all that is good and decent.
;)
Quote from: Catbat on Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 15:09My guess is that the rapid upgrades Batman did to the armour made it more difficult for Catwoman to find a weak spot, so she simply attacked him where she thought she could hurt him most from her position. The previous night, Catwoman had decided to seduce Batman to gain time and explore his batsuit with her clawed hand and, remarkably, she could figure out that his flank was scarcely protected by sensually massaging him.
He might've upgraded the suit off-camera... or it could just be that she found a weaker spot in his armor on the first night.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 29 Dec 2015, 02:03
He might've upgraded the suit off-camera... or it could just be that she found a weaker spot in his armor on the first night.
It's possible that Batman made some minor improvements to the armor off-camera, but remember he had his second encounter with Catwoman right the following night, so he really had little time to implement and test them, taking into account that he also had to deal with the Ice Princess kidnaping in the meantime.
Catwoman's stabbing of Batman's flank was most probably a chance occurence, which nevertheless proved to be intensely painful for him. Catwoman herself seemed surprised to have found that weaker spot, although she smartly hid that behind the atmosphere of sensuous enjoyment they were having on the terrace.
I think the plot points you have detailed really go to show how flimsy the Batman concept really is if we try to apply real life applications. The very idea a vigilante can walk around in the open like this and be seen talking with an elected official is probably about as outlandish as it gets.
Can you imagine social media today if people saw a masked man tie a bomb to someone and let it detonate? Hell I just read in the news where a man who was bound and robbed at gun point will be facing charges for shooting at the robber as he drove away in HIS car (the crook ultimately died from those wounds). So it's very hard to apply a fairness meter and ground it with anything going on in this movie. Batman in no way is able to make a public distinction between what he has been accused of and what the Penguin is doing. Dubbing in something the Penguin said in private over a loud speaker is hardly what I would call a definitive moment to clear his name. And honestly that is probably the weakest plot point in the whole story.
So for me to really enjoy this film, I have to look at it from a kind of art-house perspective. The imagery in this film is fascinating to look at, but the story is at times pretty convoluted and not as cohesive as I would like it to be. Burton takes some interesting observations with each of these characters and tries to demonstrate how each one handles and reasons the twists handed to them in their lives. But ultimately the time needed to delve sufficiently into each of these personalities is not sufficient to really have all of them in one movie. I think this film could have been infinitely better had they stayed with just one villain.
Quote from: Wayne49 on Wed, 27 Jan 2016, 13:09
I think the plot points you have detailed really go to show how flimsy the Batman concept really is if we try to apply real life applications. The very idea a vigilante can walk around in the open like this and be seen talking with an elected official is probably about as outlandish as it gets.
I can't agree more on this: the relaxed rules of Burton's universe certainly entail relevant detours from plausibility when it comes to Batman's relationship with both Gotham PD and citizens. I personally feel a major effort to make these exceptions work in real life was made by Nolan: with all due limitations, he tried at least to avoid the most apparent problems with his vigilantism.
Quote from: Wayne49 on Wed, 27 Jan 2016, 13:09
Can you imagine social media today if people saw a masked man tie a bomb to someone and let it detonate? Hell I just read in the news where a man who was bound and robbed at gun point will be facing charges for shooting at the robber as he drove away in HIS car (the crook ultimately died from those wounds). So it's very hard to apply a fairness meter and ground it with anything going on in this movie. Batman in no way is able to make a public distinction between what he has been accused of and what the Penguin is doing. Dubbing in something the Penguin said in private over a loud speaker is hardly what I would call a definitive moment to clear his name. And honestly that is probably the weakest plot point in the whole story.
Yes. Even though Batman used the Penguin's rant against Gotham to smear his public image, in no way that could have cleared his reputation. Hundreds of gothamites saw him "throw" the Ice Princess from the ledge, the Police saw him on the scene of the crime and even more people withnessed the batmobile destroy cars and public properties. He basically had to flee the city, even though with the proof that ultimately foiled the Penguin's plan.
Quote from: Wayne49 on Wed, 27 Jan 2016, 13:09
So for me to really enjoy this film, I have to look at it from a kind of art-house perspective. The imagery in this film is fascinating to look at, but the story is at times pretty convoluted and not as cohesive as I would like it to be. Burton takes some interesting observations with each of these characters and tries to demonstrate how each one handles and reasons the twists handed to them in their lives. But ultimately the time needed to delve sufficiently into each of these personalities is not sufficient to really have all of them in one movie. I think this film could have been infinitely better had they stayed with just one villain.
In my opinion, the relationship between Batman and Catwoman was developed fairly well, especially her attempt to challenge him not only on a physical, but also on a sexual level. During their confrontations, Batman apperas as physically flawed and sexually confused by her approach to vigilantism, to the point she even suggested him an early retirement.
The conflict with the Penguin is somehow less deep: it's strongly suggested that they have issues with their respective parents, but, unlike Batman, the Penguin ultimately looked for public recognition and acceptance.
Quote from: Catbat on Mon, 1 Feb 2016, 14:15
In my opinion, the relationship between Batman and Catwoman was developed fairly well, especially her attempt to challenge him not only on a physical, but also on a sexual level. During their confrontations, Batman apperas as physically flawed and sexually confused by her approach to vigilantism, to the point she even suggested him an early retirement.
The conflict with the Penguin is somehow less deep: it's strongly suggested that they have issues with their respective parents, but, unlike Batman, the Penguin ultimately looked for public recognition and acceptance.
Catwoman was an interesting take and I give Burton credit for broaching the topic of social stereotypes, but I think what hurts it here is he never really flushes out where he wants to go with it. He paints Selina Kyle as this very insecure young lady who has a number of codependency issues that makes her cater to demeaning behavior as an issue she has to answer to rather than fight against. I give Burton five stars for flushing out and bringing awareness to the smug attitudes that were still quite prevalent in the corporate world at that time. It was a good statement to make. But because he nestled so much of the movie in this dark and depressing environment, cluttered with other equally interesting social themes, he leaves himself no time to really offer a resolution for any of them. All the characters either die or limp away with the scars of the events that transpired leaving the audience with one small reflection from Bruce Wayne saying, "Peace on earth. Good will to men... and women."
Yes, it's nice to suggest we as a society should be all inclusive in how we observe the populace at large, but for all the plot points about betrayal, discrimination, and abandonment, Burton needed to offer a more thoughtful rebuttal for what he wanted to do with these ideas once they were examined to suggest or offer hope as a underlying silver lining for all of these tragic characters. He never did that. And because he didn't, the movie really leaves me in a melancholy mood, because it really only shows the underbelly of society without much suggestion there is a way to better those issues. I think Burton would have been better served to have counter balanced this marathon of bleak moments with a more resolute and defined conclusion that offered an alternative to this kind of existence. Instead it kind of reads as one big rant about the moral decay of society as it applied at that time. Relevant, yes. But more than a little too top heavy for a Batman movie (in my opinion).
Quote from: Wayne49 on Fri, 5 Feb 2016, 13:21
Catwoman was an interesting take and I give Burton credit for broaching the topic of social stereotypes, but I think what hurts it here is he never really flushes out where he wants to go with it. He paints Selina Kyle as this very insecure young lady who has a number of codependency issues that makes her cater to demeaning behavior as an issue she has to answer to rather than fight against. I give Burton five stars for flushing out and bringing awareness to the smug attitudes that were still quite prevalent in the corporate world at that time. It was a good statement to make. But because he nestled so much of the movie in this dark and depressing environment, cluttered with other equally interesting social themes, he leaves himself no time to really offer a resolution for any of them. All the characters either die or limp away with the scars of the events that transpired leaving the audience with one small reflection from Bruce Wayne saying, "Peace on earth. Good will to men... and women."
Your's a fine and spot-on analysis of the main undercurrent themes of the movie. Probably Tim Burton didn't conceive Batman Returns as a social commentary, but rather as a psychological study on three outcasts in the framework of some broader social themes. My feeling is that the depressing mood is mainly conveyed by the inability of each character to get free from the burden of the crimes that created them - actually, they all end up replicating the same injustices. Batman witnessed the murder of his parents and now remorselessly kills (sometimes he even enjoys the act itself, like when he set the bomb on the big clown). In addition, when he tries to protect Gotham with his vigilantism, the results are dubious to say the least, especially when the two main opponents begin to cooperate against him. The Penguin is obsessed with having been rejected and abandoned by his parents and seeks recognition and acceptance by the community via criminal ways - when his plan fails, he devises a plan to kill the firstborns of Gotham to make the whole city experience the same suffering. Selina endured gender degradation in the workplace and was killed when she discovered something evil her boss had planned. Her alter ego Catwoman then proceeded to break havoc in the city and to play a crucial role in the death of the Ice Princess, who not by chance died from falling from a building just like Selina. Even more, Catwoman unleashed her rage mainly on Batman (as a symbol of patriarchal authority) by punishing him physically during their fights and frustrating him sexually at the end of each encounter (her attempts to seduce Batman were highly erotic in tone but ultimately aimed at inflicting him pain).
That was an excellent analysis of character motivation Catbat. Always enjoy reading your posts! Very insightful.
Quote from: Wayne49 on Mon, 8 Feb 2016, 19:48
That was an excellent analysis of character motivation Catbat. Always enjoy reading your posts! Very insightful.
Thanks! I'm glad you liked it!
Quote from: Catbat on Fri, 5 Feb 2016, 22:02
My feeling is that the depressing mood is mainly conveyed by the inability of each character to get free from the burden of the crimes that created them - actually, they all end up replicating the same injustices.
Batman witnessed the murder of his parents and now remorselessly kills (sometimes he even enjoys the act itself, like when he set the bomb on the big clown).
The Penguin is obsessed with having been rejected and abandoned by his parents and seeks recognition and acceptance by the community via criminal ways - when his plan fails, he devises a plan to kill the firstborns of Gotham to make the whole city experience the same suffering.
Selina endured gender degradation in the workplace and was killed when she discovered something evil her boss had planned. Her alter ego Catwoman then proceeded to break havoc in the city and to play a crucial role in the death of the Ice Princess, who not by chance died from falling from a building just like Selina.
Even more, Catwoman unleashed her rage mainly on Batman (as a symbol of patriarchal authority) by punishing him physically during their fights and frustrating him sexually at the end of each encounter (her attempts to seduce Batman were highly erotic in tone but ultimately aimed at inflicting him pain).
Good analysis.
I really like your connection to the Ice Princess falling, like Selina did. Selina didn't want to kill the Ice Princess, just scare her. But regardless, she was a part of the scheme. Selina 'died' as an innocent, deer in headlights, just like the Ice Princess. But unlike the Princess, Selina had the opportunity to be reborn and exact revenge.