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I'm shocked that there isn't a post about this coming out of Comic Con but there was about the Batsy/TMNT thing lol.

Anyways!

Bruce Timm announced that he is making an animated movie of The Killing Joke, so, yeah. Discuss, peeps. :)

I'll start: if Mark Hamill isn't the Joker for this, just shelve it. lol. I'm not 100% serious but this kind of story has to have his Joker. I read that he totally loves the comic (oh, excuse me, graphic novel  ::) got "enlightened" by someone on Facebook) so maybe he is already practicing.

This will be amazing though. Barbara's fate brought to life will be terrifying and so will the Commish being forced to endure what he endures, not saying it cause you know spoilers even though it should be like required to have read that to register here which means I wouldn't have been able to register here til this spring so forget I said that.

The Killing Joke is one of my all-time favourite graphic novels, not just with respect to Batman but ever.  It's just a shame that this will be an animated film rather than a live-action one.

To me the animation is perfect because it will be like the pages are coming to life. Plus, there's just stuff they can make happen with animation that can't be done in live action (or if they try it is so computer generated that it has no soul).

I'd imagine that studios wouldn't have the guts to show the level of violence that occurs in The Killing Joke for a live action film. Can you imagine if the Joker managed to massacre a live TV audience and murder more people along the way at the carnival if The Dark Knight Returns was a live action movie? The backlash would be so enormous that it would make the Batman Returns controversy look so small by comparison. Yet strangely, graphic violence in animation seems to get away from that kind of scrutiny.

If Mark Hamill doesn't get to reprise Joker one more time, the safe bet would be hiring Troy Baker. He's the closest Hamill knock-off to come by, he even read one of the Joker's monologues from the book during a promotion for Arkham Origins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAn49oUtHJE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAn49oUtHJE)

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 13 Jul  2015, 09:56
Yet strangely, graphic violence in animation seems to get away from that kind of scrutiny.

Maybe because it's something drawn by hand or rendered on a computer, instead of real people with real looking death and disaster?

Maybe everyone has a little Joel Schumacher in their brains, sitting on a crane with a megaphone, going "Remember people, this is a cartoon." lol

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 13 Jul  2015, 09:56
Yet strangely, graphic violence in animation seems to get away from that kind of scrutiny.

It's like that now, but there was a time when many animated shows were censored, they couldn't show blood or even say ""kill" or "die" or show real guns in the Spider-Man and X-Men shows.

You're right about the lack of guns Edd. I even remember that the original TMNT cartoon had carefully toned down the Turtles use of their weaponry in a lot of episodes, presumably because of complaints made by parents.

I believe BTAS was the first cartoon to show guns and mention killing without being hit by censorship, i.e. Batman facing off goons armed with guns and even getting injured and bloodied in some cases, and people dying is a possibility e.g. Carl Beaumont murdered by Jack Napier and the Phantasm murdering the Valestra mob in MOTP, and Two-Face's goons seemingly killed by Rupert Thorne's mob in Two-Face Part II.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/mark-hamill-hopes-to-voice-joker-for-killing-joke-adaptation

Memo to Bruce Timm: MAKE THE DAMN CALL!!!!

Mark is in, Kevin wants in!

http://comicbook.com/2015/07/27/kevin-conroy-would-love-to-do-the-killing-joke-with-mark-hamill/

It seems that this adaptation is going to be rated R. That should mean it won't hold back on Joker's vile assault and abuse on Barbara Gordon and her dad.

The comic might have had disturbing subtext such as Barbara's possible sexual abuse, but thankfully it wasn't as graphic as it could've been. But I won't be surprised if the movie dares to shock the audience.

I'm eager to see whether or not the film will emphasize the Joker's tragic past and convey he had a backstory, or ignore it instead, and follow the "no origin" attitude by focusing too much on his multiple choice line.

Meanwhile, animator Phil Bourassa has revealed that The Killing Joke animated movie was in development back in 2009, but claims that Watchmen's poor box office persuaded WB to put everything on hold.

Source: http://www.techinsider.io/why-killing-joke-is-getting-made-2016-2

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/exclusive-kevin-conroy-mark-hamill-star-batman-killing-joke

Conroy and Hamill in, with Tara Strong reprising Barbara Gordon. Ray Wise will take on the role of Commissioner Gordon.

Can't freaking WAIT!

This is probably going to be the most epic, terrifying, repulsing, amazing thing in the history of history!

There needs to be a documentary about Kevin and Mark's battles as Batsy and Joker too cause they are the greatest Batman and Joker ever. There are totally other great ones or really good ones but they're the best and I will debate anyone on that til the end of times...or until I get bored lol. Gosh I love them and I love these characters. As much as I want to hate the Joker (this one, I probably will hate) Mark (and Jack...and Cesar...) gives him such a charm I can't.

So excited about this. So NOT excited about the idiot parents who see "Batman" and don't read the rest of the title and definitely don't bother to look into the freaking story and buy it for little Timmy and he winds up needing therapy and they start looking for a deep pocket cause that's how modern society and especially my suck ass generation does things.

I'm interested if they'll go with the original colour scheme or the recolouring.

As a massive Twin Peaks fan, I'm thrilled to hear Ray Wise is in this. He's one of the most underrated actors working in the business. I always thought he would've been perfect as Norman Osborn if they'd made a Spider-Man film in the nineties. He can shift from charming to psychotic in the same breath without missing a beat.


Considering how well he conveyed a father's anguish over his daughter's suffering in Twin Peaks, I can easily see him bringing a similar intensity to Gordon in this film. Throw in Conroy and Hamill and it's perfect casting all round.

Trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvEZa_dY4Sc

Looks good, but they could do the oval? Come on!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can't effing wait

Bring it on. This story is not to be joked about...

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/watch-12-minute-batman-killing-joke-sneak-peek

Oh my freaking gosh. That was so amazing. Go watch. Like, now. Go.

It's not like 12 minutes of the movie, it's a featurette dealio with Bruce Timm and two other guys I don't know yet but I like them lol talking about the story and the process of making a movie of it and then you have the voice actors chiming in quickly toward the end. So good. Has me so excited for this!

One of the comments at that link is interesting, regarding the DCEU and Bruce Timm. I like Zack Snyder's approach so far but wow. Think about that for a sec. Honestly I think I would rather him keep doing these AMAZING animated movies because that's the best Batman medium to me, even though it doesn't get the big money and stuff like live action, because he's a comic book character and it's like a comic book coming to life but keeping that look.

Bruce Timm and Paul Dini are the best things that have ever happened to Batman, outside of the comics.  I would feel like I had died and gone to heaven if these guys were one day put in charge of the live-action films.

To the shock of no one:

http://www.polygon.com/2016/4/15/11438282/batman-the-killing-joke-r-rating

First full trailer. The animation could've been better, but I still like it. I think the lack of oval looks odd, but whatever. I'm excited for this.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4769uo_batman-the-killing-joke-official-trailer-1-hd_shortfilms

Youtube link in case that doesn't work for anyone else (didn't for me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDeRUg5XtcI

Pretty cool

The art style doesn't do it for me. But the story is a classic, so I'll be there.

They're going to show Joker's minions strip Gordon naked and wear that gimp outfit after all. I was hoping they'd omit that, it was a hard scene to get through.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 27 Apr  2016, 09:11
They're going to show Joker's minions strip Gordon naked and wear that gimp outfit after all. I was hoping they'd omit that, it was a hard scene to get through.

Yea I'm not looking forward to that but they did say they felt like an obligation to be faithful to the comic and not compromise. I just hope they don't go beyond what the comic showed. If something was implied, then imply it, but don't like show Joker assaulting Barbara or whatever.

The quality of animation is...


...hopefully not representative of the finished product.

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed, 27 Apr  2016, 19:23
Yea I'm not looking forward to that but they did say they felt like an obligation to be faithful to the comic and not compromise. I just hope they don't go beyond what the comic showed. If something was implied, then imply it, but don't like show Joker assaulting Barbara or whatever.

I predict that the gunshot wound will be bloody, more so than in the comic. But I reckon the closest we'll get to Joker assaulting Barbara will be him unbuttoning her blouse before cutting away to the next scene. And that is chilling alone.

But at the same time, I have a feeling that they'll try and get edgy for the sake of it. This film is R-Rated after all. If The Dark Knight Returns Part II managed to earn PG-13 rating despite that extremely violent carnival showdown between Batman and Joker, then who knows what sort of shock value this adaptation will have to offer.

I would hope we avoid any cheap shock value (the graphic novel brought more than enough shock to the table). Part of that is the Timm/Conroy/Hamill factor, nothing can ruin nearly a 1/4 century run at this point but it would rub a little shine off. It would just be a shame to see them go there. It's not needed. Maybe it's because of the way they are all but deified in the Bat universe but I just have this upstanding image of them that says they won't go there because it's not necessary for what they're doing.

Here's an article posted on the Batman-Online-com Twitter Feed: http://trans--scribe.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/why-killing-joke-film-is-bad-idea.html
(http://trans--scribe.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/why-killing-joke-film-is-bad-idea.html)

QuoteWhy 'The Killing Joke' Film Is A Bad Idea

A lot of comic book fans like the work of Alan Moore, some will go so far as to say they love his work, citing him as one of the greatest comic book writers of all time.  Out of all of his works two stand out as his best, one being the twelve part miniseries 'Watchmen', the other being the single issue 'The Killing Joke'.

'The Killing Joke' is a Batman story that has gone on to have some of the most lasting effect in the character's history, and some fans have been calling for the work to be adapted in some form for years.  Since the announcement that DC would be producing the story as an R-Rated animated feature, starring the voice talents of long time series stars Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill as Batman and Joker respectively, some fans have been cheering the production.

Since the publication of the original book there have been people who have taken issue with the story, people who are speaking out against it yet again as the film nears its release.

Some fans have issues with the story because Moore attempts to tell an origin story for the Joker, something that has been done several times over the years and being met with several degrees of reactions.  Whilst there is no definitive answer as to who the iconic villain is or how he ended up the way he is, Moore's is regarded by some to be a 'definitive' answer to this question, which is a stance that angers some fans who believe that his origin should never be confirmed.  Personally my favourite of these possible origins is the Pale Man created by Scott Snyder, but that's doesn't really add much to this conversation, I just wanted to share a little.

The main issue that many of the detractors have with the story, aside from the Joker origin, is the depiction of the violence that the Joker visits upon the supporting character of Barbara Gordon, aka Batgirl.  In the story the Joker shoots Barbara, an injury that goes on to cause long term damage that would leave the character crippled and wheelchair bound for the next 24 years of comic publication, then he strips her naked and takes photographs of her to use as a weapon against her father.

People have said that 'The Killing Joke' is built upon a foundation of sexual abuse and misogyny.  Whilst the events of 'The Killing Joke' would go on to be a point of huge character development for Barbara Gordon and many fans cite that as justification for the assault.  Some fans say that her development into Oracle and her prominence as the first major comic book character with a visible disability is due to 'The Killing Joke', and that it absolves the violence done upon her in that book.

What some people don't realise is that at the time that 'The Killing Joke' was written there were no plans for any of that.  No one in the company had the intention of turning Barbara into the character that she would go on to become.

In the build up to 'The Killing Joke' Barbara gave up the mantle of Batgirl to prepare her for Moore's story.  Speaking to Wizard Magazine in 2006 Moore even went on to say that he felt that someone should have stepped in to prevent him from what he did to the character.

'I asked DC if they had a problem with me crippling Barbara Gordon - who was Batgirl at the time - and if I remember, I spoke to Len Wein, who was our editor on the project ... [he] said, 'Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch'.  It was probably one of the areas where they should have reined me in, but they didn't'.

That was it as far as DC were concerned, Barbara was crippled and they had no intention of doing anything else with the character.  It was only through the intervention of writer Kim Yale and her husband John Ostrander that Barbara became the character many would know and love.  Not pleased with the way she had been treated in 'The Killing Joke', and unhappy with DC executive's decision to do nothing with the character, they slowly began to create the Oracle identity for her over the course of several titles, including Suicide Squad, Hawk and Dove, Manhunter and, most famously, Birds of Prey.

Barbara would go on in the role of Oracle for many more years, both as a major player in the Birds of Prey title, thanks to the writing of Gail Simone, and the wider DC universe as a whole.  But these developments are not because of Alan Moore, but rather in spite of him, to correct a huge disservice done upon the character under his direction.

Alan Moore did not write 'The Killing Joke' with Barbara's extended development in mind, but simply used her as a plot device in which to write a story about men.  The killing of Green Lantern Kyle Rayner's girlfriend Alex is often held up as a prime example of women being assaulted in order to further a man's story, and the term 'women in refrigerators' comes from this, but the crippling and sexual assault of Barbara Gordon is possibly the most well-known, even if people do not think of it in these terms.

This puts the new film in a problematic position.  Whilst the comic books had many years following the release of the book to correct the damage done to the character and give Barbara room to grow, the film will not have the option to do this.  Yes, there may be some kind of montage at the end that shows Barbara going on to becoming Oracle and her growth as a person, but I highly doubt that anything like that will be included.  No, in this film Barbara is only going to be used in the same way that she was in the original book, as a victim.

The harm done to Barbara within this film will also be heightened by the fact that the character has gone through a resurgence in recent years, having once again become Batgirl during the New 52 relaunch.  The new Batgirl comic has been a critical and financial success for DC, with her book frequently being in the Top 40 for sales each issue.

With the character being in such a high profile position right now, and with many new readers discovering the character for the first time, some possibly only even mildly aware of her backstory in 'The Killing Joke', the film using her as a victim of abuse will surely disturb and upset many fans of the character, and of the DC universe in general.

It's important to acknowledge the fact that this film is being widely advertised as being an R-Rated film, which has delighted some fans.  Whilst some of the decision to make the film R-Rated may have come from the success of the recent 'Deadpool' film and DC's frantic desire to appeal to an adult audience (their previously unannounced plan to release an R-Rated version of 'Batman V Superman' being revealed only after the success of 'Deadpool' being an indicator of this) it goes a long way to tell us the kind of graphic images that will be incorporated into the film.

During the course of the story we see Barbara sexually assaulted, along with her father being stripped naked by dwarfs in bondage clothing and forced to see pictures of his naked and abused daughter.  Making the project R-Rated means that the creators have free reign to show as much of this as they want to, in as much graphic detail as they like.

At the time of the release of the book DC made the decision to censor some of the content, as the original artwork was much more graphic and sexual in its content.  At the time this choice was probably one of the best moves that DC could make, as comics were still something of a fragile industry and the focus of a great deal of criticism.  In today's climate, with comic book properties being in both such high demand and producing such a high turnover for their companies there is nothing to prevent DC from being able to show the events of the story in all of their graphic detail.

With us having had several live action and animated Batman movies that have shown high levels of violence that have not needed to resort to encroaching into R-Rated territory there are only two possible reasons why this project would be given such a rating, to include extremely strong language or to include graphic violence and scenes of sexual assault.  Personally I doubt that the decision was made to include strong language.

So we now stand at a point where we will be receiving a Batman film that revels in the violence and sexual assault of one of the franchise's most beloved and powerful female characters, where she will be put through extreme violence simply to tell a story about men, namely Batman, the Joker and Commissioner Gordon.

Whilst some are already arguing that removing these scenes from the story would somehow lessen it to the point of making the story pointless you must consider the wider ramifications of what this will be saying to female viewers.  A Publishers Weekly report released in 2014 found that women aged between 17 and 33 were the fastest growing group in comic book readership and retail, something that has only continued since with the inclusion of more female led solo books from Marvel and DC, as well as female centric independent series.

To produce a story that hinges so centrally on the exploitative victimisation of a major female superhero and comic book icon only ignores the inclusion of so many more female readers and fans than any other time in comic book history.  Surely to produce work such as this will go on to alienate this growing audience and could even damage the success of this film, as well as future project.

DC are aware of the trouble with the content of 'The Killing Joke', as they recently chose to remove a variant cover for issue 41 of the latest volume of 'Batgirl' for choosing to reference the events of 'The Killing Joke' and depicting Barbara in a victim role once again.  If DC are so acutely aware of the rouble around this kind of content to the point that they take action to remove it, it raises the question of why they are now prepared to ignore this female audience and the disturbing nature of the story just because it is in film form rather than in print.

I believe that a lot people's views on 'The Killing Joke' are sadly going to be dictated by gender.  Women, and those men who have an awareness of these kinds of issues, will surely have a problem with film and find it disturbing, whilst many men will see no issue with it.  The fight over this issue, and believe me there already is one going on online, centres over people's views of violence against women and sexual assault and will not be one where a middle ground will be found.

The comics industry has made great strides in being more inclusive and appealing to a female audience over the last few years, but 'The Killing Joke' film feels like a huge step backwards in this area.

- Amy Walker

::)

Speaking as a feminist and someone who generally abhors sexual exploitation and depictions of violent sexual assault in fiction, particularly genre fiction, I have to say, this article is utter hogwash.  But I should probably expect that from someone who cites the New 52 immortal meta-human of The Joker as her favourite version of the character.

Just because a comic, film or TV show depicts sexual violence, it doesn't mean it necessarily makes light of such victimisation, far less revel in it.  Of course people will be disturbed by it, women and men, but that's the point.  They should be.  Alan Moore presumably depicted Barbara's assault at the hands of The Joker to drastically raise the stakes and demonstrate just how evil this character was.

Admittedly, society has moved on since 1986 and we now have a more progressive attitude to the abuse of female characters in fiction, one that asks creators of fictional entertainment to give a greater sense of agency to those characters rather than using their victimisation simply as the basis for spurring another, usually male, into action.  But why should that invalidate an adaptation of one of the greatest graphic novels of all-time, not to mention one of the finest characterisations of the Joker (certainly far superior to the New 52), especially if the sexual assault/victimisation angle can be substantially revised or downplayed?

As for Barbara Gordon's development as a character post-The Killing Joke, Amy Walker is plain wrong to state that her development into The Oracle, the first major disabled superhero/superheroine, was 'not because of Alan Moore, but rather in spite of him'.  Is she seriously suggesting that DC would have gone down the disabled route had The Joker not shot and thus crippled Barbara?

Anyway, like I said, I'm all for feminism but when it starts to interfere with the legitimate adaptation of a work that is far from misogynist, it can only seem like a petty attempt to justify censorship purely on the basis of personal taste.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 29 Apr  2016, 15:22
I would hope we avoid any cheap shock value (the graphic novel brought more than enough shock to the table). Part of that is the Timm/Conroy/Hamill factor, nothing can ruin nearly a 1/4 century run at this point but it would rub a little shine off. It would just be a shame to see them go there. It's not needed. Maybe it's because of the way they are all but deified in the Bat universe but I just have this upstanding image of them that says they won't go there because it's not necessary for what they're doing.

I always thought TKJ was an advert *against* abusing females. It shows how disgusting and degrading it is, which is obviously the decent human reaction against this sort of behaviour. Just because it is being depicted doesn't make it an endorsement. I think it's also important to see the ugly reality to make people sit up and take notice. To say 'this is not okay', we need people like Batman out there fighting such people. People like The Joker who think abuse of any kind is a joke. It's not.

Release date: August 2.

sh*t. So it's either buy this or go see Suicide Squad. I think the answer is obvious. I'll have to wait a while on seeing this. Son of a bitch.

The cover art is totally rad!

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYmChmtt.jpg&hash=e615e5019475a419283b7b7d3d48b101009c8bbc)

That is sensational.

Wonder how many Christmas stockings that's going to wind up in.

What Joker would everyone be here?

I'd have the hair of Ledger, the skinniness of the Arkham games and the dress sense of Nicholson.

The appearance of Alex Ross' Joker, the creativeness of Mark Hamill's Joker, and the humor of Jack Nicholson's Joker.

Quote from: The Joker on Wed,  4 May  2016, 19:33

The appearance of Alex Ross' Joker, the creativeness of Mark Hamill's Joker, and the humor of Jack Nicholson's Joker.

Good choice.  ;D

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.hiboox.com%2Fimages%2F1816%2F090209c6c5d60a0184c09e86377fd3e6.gif&hash=4ef7112f38cc397014411b633ad133cec5baf973)

;)   ;D

And the violence of Azzarello's  Joker.

Here is the synopsis:

Quote
What does it take for a person to snap? How much despair for a mind to fracture? These are the twisted questions that The Joker has set out to answer, to show Gotham that even an ordinary man like Commissioner Gordon is only one bad day away from sheer insanity. Based on the acclaimed DC Comics graphic novel, witness a journey into the dark psyche of the Clown Prince of Crime. Follow his humble beginnings as a struggling comic to his fateful encounter with the Dark Knight that changed everything. Fueled by the return of Kevin Conroy as Batman and Mark Hamill as The Joker, witness the birth of a super villain, the fortitude of a hero and the punch line that will leave you speechless.

Does anybody reckon this backstory will cast doubts in fans who believe the Joker is an unreliable narrator? In the comic, he was incensed when Batman suggested he became insane because there was always something inherently wrong with him. In the end, Joker looked remorseful as he declines Batman's offer for rehabilitation before the two share a laugh together over a joke. It will be interesting to see if the movie stays faithful to that ending.

Here is a screenshot of Batgirl in the film:

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.comicbook.com%2F2016%2F05%2Fbatgirl-killingjoke-183529.png&hash=1228918677eb8469e3b4fb60ac8477f19f1e0d07)

Source: http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/05/21/new-batman-the-killing-joke-image-shows-batgirl/

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 23 May  2016, 10:57
Does anybody reckon this backstory will cast doubts in fans who believe the Joker is an unreliable narrator?

In my opinion Joker knows what happened, and he masks his pain with randomised narratives.

I agree, but too many people are fascinated by the idea that Joker should have a completely unknown past, to the point they seem to ignore his anguish. And I find it very bizarre.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 25 May  2016, 07:28

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 23 May  2016, 10:57
Does anybody reckon this backstory will cast doubts in fans who believe the Joker is an unreliable narrator?

In my opinion Joker knows what happened, and he masks his pain with randomised narratives.

To me he knew at the start but through his own insanity and all the different versions he's told even he lost track. Not that I want to spend much (read: any) time thinking about what goes on his head. It'd probably take the icky feelings I had reading the Star Wars Dark Empire or whatever it was called where Luke infiltrates the dark side (I literally felt unsafe and ill at ease reading) and ratchet it up by, like, a thousand.

The Joker is a total free spirit. He's also like the weather. Some days he may pass without incident, and be nothing but a gentle breeze. But other days, he may be a raging typhoon who uproots trees and brings about tsunamis. He can devise brilliant strategies and improvise on the spot. From turning water supplies into jelly, to capturing and killing people of interest on live TV. He may seem erratic, but I think he has a brilliant mind. That's why he has survived for so long. I don't think such a man would forget his origin. But he may want to, though. There's the difference.

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed, 25 May  2016, 12:40
It'd probably take the icky feelings I had reading the Star Wars Dark Empire or whatever it was called where Luke infiltrates the dark side (I literally felt unsafe and ill at ease reading) and ratchet it up by, like, a thousand.

I love that comic. I got it for Christmas the year it came out. But I do remember being a bit freaked out by Luke's descent to the Dark Side. It was frightening seeing my hero turn evil like that.


Palpatine was also very intimidating in that story. The creepiest scene was where Luke frantically destroys Palpatine's clone bodies in an effort to prevent his rebirth, only for the Emperor to rise from the slime, younger and stronger, and easily best Luke with the lightsaber.


I think one of the reasons I like Revenge of the Sith more than most fans is because it reminds me a lot of Dark Empire.

Apropos The Killing Joke origin, I seem to recall it was largely taken as canon until around 2007/8. Grant Morrison introduced the idea of the Joker's 'super-sanity' back in Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth (1989). But fans generally didn't connect the dots between that and his "multiple choice" line in TKJ until much later:

Quote"Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another... If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

A few stories presented the flashbacks from TKJ as fact. For example, in 'Wildcard!' (Batman Vol 1 #450, July 1990) the Joker's shown reminiscing about his fateful immersion at Ace Chemicals, and his recollections perfectly match those depicted in Moore's book. He's even shown to have kept the original red hood that he wore when he leaped into the vat, proving the Red Hood origin was more than just a misremembered delusion.


Meanwhile the story about the Joker's wife being killed is confirmed during Hush Returns (2004), where the Riddler presents himself as a third-party witness to the event. The Joker himself verifies it in Batman: Gotham Knights Vol 1 #52 (June 2004).


But then DC started to move away from the idea of The Killing Joke flashbacks being canon. In 'The Origin of the Joker' (Countdown #31, September 2007) he presents the reader with three different versions of his back story. This foreshadows a recent revelation in Justice League Vol 2 #50, where the Mobius Chair responded to Batman's question about the Joker's true name by saying, "There are three." Though no one really knows what that means at this point. Three names? Three origins? Three personalities?

I just meant being that deep in the dark side as we follow Luke. We were deep in the Empire but the dark side stuff was still mysterious so Palpatine's guided tour was a serious "I do NOT need to be here" moment. It was freaky.

I figure being in The Joker's mind would be even worse. They could probably never print a comic like that if they do it justice.

Ug. I'm super creeped out just thinking about it. I never should have mentioned that.

Judge Death got a glimpse of the Joker's mind in Batman/Judge Dredd: Judgment on Gotham (1991) and even he was freaked out. And that's saying something.


I'd imagine the landscape of the Joker's mind being a cross between Hieronymus Bosch, Francis Bacon, H R Giger and Monty Python.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 25 May  2016, 20:01
I'd imagine the landscape of the Joker's mind being a cross between Hieronymus Bosch, Francis Bacon, H R Giger and Monty Python.

(https://rjamahoney.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/ba-1.png)

;D

The Joker is what we all could be. We either use our pain for good - to help others like Batman. Or we use our pain for evil. Giving the world the finger and doing as we please like The Joker. Either way, they are two extreme viewpoints. Two very different moods. Ultimately, we make a choice as to how we present ourself to the world. The Joker's speech to Vicki in B89 about crying inside is true, in my opinion.

The guy is full of anger and sorrow, but presents a man of fun and games. That's why he's dangerous. The inherent attribute ebbing under the surface is one of extreme jealousy and irritation. The guy who yells at Brian Douglas in TDK is the real deal. I don't think he's necessarily crazy...but mad.

It seems the film will include a Batgirl prologue as backstory.

Source: https://www.yahoo.com/movies/batgirl-gets-a-prologue-in-the-upcoming-batman-151959433.html

I'm mixed on this. Obviously they had to fill time and I can't think of any better way than setting up Barbara to be more than just a victim but that's going to give it a devastating kind of impact that I didn't really have when I first read it (I had known for years she gets paralyzed and Joker does it and yadda yadda so it didn't have that effect). I'm excited and dreading it at the same time.

If the film had to be expanded to make the runtime sufficient, they picked the right way to do it.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 25 May  2016, 19:17A few stories presented the flashbacks from TKJ as fact. For example, in 'Wildcard!' (Batman Vol 1 #450, July 1990) the Joker's shown reminiscing about his fateful immersion at Ace Chemicals, and his recollections perfectly match those depicted in Moore's book. He's even shown to have kept the original red hood that he wore when he leaped into the vat, proving the Red Hood origin was more than just a misremembered delusion.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi396.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp42%2Fsilver-nemsis%2Fb450_zpshrzwginf.png&hash=03491acd163ea4c064b518db1cf6b4c241b9f972)

Meanwhile the story about the Joker's wife being killed is confirmed during Hush Returns (2004), where the Riddler presents himself as a third-party witness to the event. The Joker himself verifies it in Batman: Gotham Knights Vol 1 #52 (June 2004).

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi396.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp42%2Fsilver-nemsis%2Fgk52_zpsmcqzprbf.png&hash=15d5fad00d308c27ee2c91ab0d75e03ac59a63f6)

But then DC started to move away from the idea of The Killing Joke flashbacks being canon. In 'The Origin of the Joker' (Countdown #31, September 2007) he presents the reader with three different versions of his back story. This foreshadows a recent revelation in Justice League Vol 2 #50, where the Mobius Chair responded to Batman's question about the Joker's true name by saying, "There are three." Though no one really knows what that means at this point. Three names? Three origins? Three personalities?

Not really a fact. Just a showcase that he either was the Red Hood or has the red hood itself with him. Recollections of a potential memory he's already remembered isn't really confirmation either. I can say that I find the dead wife and him being so scared of Batman that he jumps in the chemicals and it was all just a big misunderstanding idea kinda blah. It seems kinda lame and a cliche way to try and take a character and make them generic and falsely tragic. I've never seen real depth there. I don't know why it's viewed as highly as it is. I personally prefer The Man Behind The Red Hood! version or in a way the Burton movie version. Or maybe even a mishmash of all 3 would work. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Quote from: Dagenspear on Mon,  6 Jun  2016, 04:39
Not really a fact. Just a showcase that he either was the Red Hood or has the red hood itself with him. Recollections of a potential memory he's already remembered isn't really confirmation either.

The two stories I cited predicate on the events of The Killing Joker being factual. It's not simply a matter of Joker's recollections. Both stories offer evidence to corroborate the flashbacks depicted in TKJ. In Batman Vol 1 #450 the Joker is shown degenerating into a pre-maddened state of emotional and psychological vulnerability following his near death experience at the end of A Death in the Family (1989). He mentally relives the traumatic events surrounding his immersion at Ace Chemicals and is shown to have kept the Red Hood from that fateful night.


In the Post-Crisis canon the Red Hood storyline was connected with TKJ. And the version of events depicted in Batman #450 is clearly based on Moore and Bolland's story, as evidenced by the presence of two additional criminals in the chemical plant sequence and the scene where the Joker emerges from the river following his escape from the plant. Both of these elements were introduced in TKJ and neither were present in the Pre-Crisis version of his origin, as depicted in 'The Man Behind the Red Hood!' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #168, February 1951). So while Batman #450 may not reference the back story about the Joker's pregnant wife, it does present the TKJ chemical plant sequence as canon. And it offers the physical evidence of the Red Hood costume to substantiate the reality of these events.

Meanwhile the rest of the origin from TKJ has been treated as canon in other issues. In Batman: Gotham Knights Vol 1 #50 (April 2004) the Joker is shown looking through a photo album containing pictures of his younger self and his wife Jeannie.


In Batman: Gotham Knights Vol 1 #54 (August 2004) the Joker recaps the flashback events from TKJ, this time giving us a few extra details: his real name is Jack and the incident at Ace Chemicals occurred precisely 12 years prior to the events of Hush Returns. The Riddler confirms witnessing certain events from this back story, including the murder of Jeannie by a corrupt police office named Oliver Hammet, the Joker appearing at the scene of the murder fresh from his rebirth at Ace Chemicals, and the Joker attending Jeannie's funeral.


I'm not suggesting the TKJ back story involving Jeanie and the Red Hood origin was ever 100% fact (although it was clearly treated as such in these particular stories). I'm just presenting these examples to illustrate how many fans, and indeed comic creators, considered it canon prior to DC reemphasising the "multiple choice" angle around the time The Dark Knight was in production. A further example can be found in DC's Who's Who: Update '88 Vol 1 #2 (September 1988), which presents the following origin story for the Joker (the previous edition had described the Golden Age origin from 1951):


Once again, the possibility of the Joker remembering it wrong is acknowledged, but the probable canonicity of his recollections is nevertheless asserted. And that was the prevalent attitude amongst comic fans for almost twenty years.

Great post. Silver knows his comics.  ;)

I just got done watching it. The animation was actually much better than what the previews made it out to be. The first third is a Batgirl prologue, and I don't think it really added much to the story, other than fill in some time. It wasn't a bad story, but it didn't really feel significant to the main story of TKJ. I don't really know what they were thinking with this one, as its kinda bland, and doesn't really add anything? But after that, it's basically TKJ from the comics, although, some of the dialogue is changed, and the pacing seems a bit different to me. And I think they botched the very ending, but I'll be interested in what you guys think of it when you finally see it.

Definitely worth a watch, but not my favorite DC animated movie. If I had to rate it, I would probably give it a 7.5/10. Not bad, but not great.

I'm hearing a lot of negative buzz about this film. It's getting polarising reviews and fan reaction seems to range from mildly indifferent to toxic. A lot of the negativity relates to the opening act of the movie, and especially the depiction of Barbara Gordon. Things got a bit ugly at the Comic-Con panel when fans voiced their displeasure:

QuoteAs such, it should have come as no surprise to DC Comics that some people would voice concerns at The Killing Joke panel at this year's Comic-Con. The panel, for the most part, started without a hitch. Voice actors Tara Strong and Kevin Conroy talked about reprising their roles of Batgirl and Batman for the film. Mark Hamill, one of the most iconic Jokers ever onscreen, even phoned in to say how excited he was to be returning to the role.

It was during the Q&A that things got dicey. A Joker cosplayer asked the writers why they would downplay Barbara Gordon, such a strong female character, and make her story more about the men in her life. According to Bleeding Cool reporter Jeremy Konrad, the writers insisted she was still a strong female character. Konrad, who'd already seen the film and didn't agree, himself sarcastically shouted, "Yeah, by using sex and then pining for Bruce."

That's when co-screenwriter Brian Azzarello seemed to put it all out there. "Wanna say that again? Pussy?" he asked.

A report by The Hollywood Reporter adds some context to the heated discussion:

"I don't think she's pining over Bruce at all," said Azzarello. "She's pining over the violence."

Executive Bruce Timm acknowledged "it's complicated."

"I actually like that in that opening story both Batman and Batgirl make a series of mistakes and then it kind of escalates, because Batman kind of overreacts and then she overreacts to her overreaction," said Timm. That's a very human thing."

"There's clearly an unstated attraction between the two of the characters from the very beginning and I think it's there in the comics. If you go back and look at the Adam West show, its' there in the Adam West show," said Timm. "It's subtle, but to me it's always been there."

Azzarello has a reputation for being contrarian and cantankerous at times. It's entirely possible that he was reacting to the way the comment was made—shouted from the crowd by a writer who describes himself as frustrated with the film—and not just the content of the remark itself. But, whether he felt he was being heckled or not, his response is crummy. Even if Azzarello disagrees with fans' reaction or feels attacked, to be so dismissive sours the relationship that fans have with Batgirl, the filmmakers, and DC as a company. The creators can stand by their creative decisions, sure, but they don't have to be assholes about it.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-killing-joke-movie-is-a-disaster-right-down-to-its-1784176711

I never particularly liked The Killing Joke anyway and have always considered it overrated, so maybe I'll enjoy the film more due to my low expectations. I'll certainly pick up a copy and form my own opinion. But it looks like a lot of fans are unhappy with DC's latest animated effort. The IMDb rating is already down to a 7.2.

I actually agree with Azzarelo on that. It sounds like the person who was asking them the question, was trying to make some ultra progressive statement about how they're probably shaming women. I know a lot of people are pointing fingers at him, but I think he's totally in the right on this. He stood up for himself over something he felt was stupid. I have no problem with it.

Alright, before I can really gather my thoughts into the form of a review, I picked up some neat Easter eggs relevant to Batman Online.

Batman pulls up pictures of the Joker from various stages in his criminal career on the Batcave computer.

The main image Bruce focuses on is a recreation of the very first appearance of the Joker.
(https://modernmythologies.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/batman-1-joker.png)

Other pictures are of Jason Todd's death and the Laughing Fish. Couldn't immediately discern if they were based on any pre-existing frames.

This shot was recreated, seagulls and all:
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-D7IzwwUhZUY%2FTvte9D25qsI%2FAAAAAAAAJVk%2FVSoUnDCdHTw%2Fs1600%2F0%2B%2525283%252529.jpg&hash=5e0c4fdf6ae29b3c2929e04b798f523160ecb083)

Another shot I saw was a nod to Heath Ledger's Joker and a recreation of this famous publicity shot:
(https://mattthomas.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/ledger.jpg)
Though I'm not 100%, they didn't linger on it that long.

I believe this replaced a scene where Batman looks at a Dick Sprang-inspired picture of the Bat-Family in the graphic novel (which I believe was different in the original printing).

So I saw the movie. It was okay, but in some respects it's underwhelming.

Ick. I trust y'alls judgement so I'm feeling a little apprehensive now. I'll still totally be seeing it (wanted to see it at the theater tonight but it didn't work out) and forming my own opinion but I'm lowering my expectations a little.

Some dialogue being changed to be 'edgy' didn't really work for me.
The animation style was average.
I didn't really feel the Batgirl subplot they tacked on.
By the time the graphic novel proper started, I was already getting on the bored side.

It's not a trainwreck that should be shunned and buried deep near the Earth's core. It's just an average movie. Which is a shame, because it could've been so much more.

(https://imustgomyfandomsneedme.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/ten-i-could-do-so-much-more3.png?w=325&h=183)

I just wasn't impressed with the prologue, and I thought they messed up the ending. But of course, I know people have different interpretations of what happened, but the ending to this made it look like a happy-go-luck, almost friendly ending. I never interpreted it that way, at all.

They made it look like they were hugging. In the comic, it looks like Batman is strangling Joker.

More and more these movies depend on continuity that they have to create for themselves because none of these movies is in continuity with any of the others. The result is often a movie with patchwork continuity that ultimately doesn't matter. TKJ as a movie was never destined to be a big priority for me but it sounds like a dud more and more all the time.

Down to a 7/10 on the IMDb, with a 46% 'rotten' rating on RT and a 62% RT user score. I think this is the first time an animated Batman film has ever been rated rotten. Critics usually love these movies. On the upside, it beat Ghostbusters at the box office.

This is pretty cool:

That's pretty cool, Silver Nemesis.

Someone else did the same thing but made it look like real actors. CGI these days is amazing...  ;D

https://youtu.be/kBVZPuUsB04

I finished watching this right now.

I'm not impressed. The first half hour exploring Barbara's relationship with Batman felt tacked on and served no purpose to the main plot at all. The only positive thing I can say about this new material to the story is it explored why Barbara decided to abandon her Batgirl identity, and she realised that Batman was right when he warned her about how toxic and soul destroying that crime-fighting can be. But again, it didn't tie to to the Joker story at all. This entire narrative would've been appropriate for a standalone TV series instead. Except for the whole sexual tension Batman and Batgirl. That was pointless and unnecessary.

I'm disappointed that the most poignant moments of the story felt rather flat on screen. For instance, the comic showed the Joker looking somber and remorseful before he had rejected Batman's last ultimatum to rehabilitate, but it wasn't made a big deal here. The comic did a much better job at conveying that the Joker was a lost man who fell victim to tragic circumstances and reached the point of no return, unlike Gordon. I didn't get that impression here, it felt strangely played down. Even the Joker's backstory here didn't resonate me with me as it did in the comic. As Travesty pointed out, the ending had none of that ambiguity either.

I must admit - I enjoyed the three New 52 Batman movies more than this, and I thought those movies were average at best, albeit fun as a one time watch. I've come realise that the DC animated movies have been on a decline for some time.

I picked up the DVD of this yesterday on my way home from seeing Suicide Squad. Here's my brief review.

I agree with the consensus that the opening act is weak and superfluous. It doesn't gel with the rest of the movie and feels out of place with Moore's style of writing. Barbara gossiping about her love life with her GBF may be some people's idea of a good Batman film, but it isn't mine. The sex scene also felt a bit random and reminded me of Batman and Black Canary's costumed hook-up in All-Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder (and that's not a good thing). I understand that they wanted to pad out the running time, but I think they would have been better served drawing from J. Michael Straczynski's 'Ladies Night' (The Brave and the Bold Vol 3 #33, June 2010) than this original content.

The rest of the film is a more or less faithful adaptation of the book. I've never minced words about the fact I dislike this story, so naturally I wasn't mad on the film either. But those who like the comic should enjoy the movie. The voice acting was generally good, with Mark Hamill and Ray Wise leaving the strongest impressions. The score wasn't memorable, but I liked the fact it was so understated. It suited the more serious subject matter.

The animation was serviceable but underwhelming and I found the overall look of Gotham rather bland. In his original script, Moore described the amusement park as having a Caligaristic quality, and I wish the film had displayed a similarly twisted expressionistic style. The muted colour palette reflects the art in the deluxe edition, but I would have preferred a more vibrant aesthetic along the lines of the original 1988 art.

In the past week I've watched three new Batman films: the Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice Ultimate Edition, Suicide Squad and The Killing Joke. If you can only see one, get the Batman v Superman UE. But if you've got leftover change and you're a fan of the original graphic novel, you may as well give TKJ a look too. I wasn't mad on it myself and I wouldn't recommend it to people who disliked the comic, but fans of Moore might feel differently.

Final rating: 5.5/10

Take into account I don't really like the book it's based on. If I did, I might have rated the film higher.

Indeed. TKJ and SS were disappointments for me as a DC fan. I really need Wonder Woman to deliver the goods to feel good about the brand again, even though I dig MoS and BvS. I have faith in Snyder and Justice League, but that's a solid year away.