Despite always thinking that Vicki Vale in this movie is the perfect example of a damsel in distress, I've always had an affection for her. She's a lot like Lois Lane; an investigative reporter who is curious about the Batman myth while falling in love with a mysterious billionaire. I guess she's like an avatar for somebody who doesn't know anything about Batman. She is charming to Knox but she kinda blows him off for a having an interest in her. Though she still regards him as a friend and an ally.
If there is one thing I could complain about her, is that she screams a little too much. Besides that, she's a-okay.
"Damsel in distress" is thrown around a lot these days, usually to discredit films of the past that don't over-emphasize the female lead. Vicki is a character with her own motivations, who isn't afraid to stand up for herself. She even puts up a little fight when she needs to. If people can complain about a leading lady in Batman films, Chase Meridian was probably the most vanilla; I probably could see the damsel in distress description actually applying to her.
I think in Vicki Vale's case the 'damsel in distress' tag is a positive one. I'd go far by saying she's an avatar for anyone who may never knew anything about the Batman mythology before, and probably relate to her because she eventually pieces together who Bruce Wayne is and what drove him to do what he does.
I thought she was a great character, and her screaming isn't all that obvious. Kim Basinger had good chemistry with Keaton.
you can call the screaming annoying but she screamed in some horrifying situations that any real person would be startled in.
The issue is that so many superhero films later used that plot device but you can't blame the film for starting a clichee.
Saw Batman again last night and I really enjoyed her performance. She was resourceful and smart and very intrepid in trying to get the story. Even when under attack she still tried to take pictures and even questioning Batman's motives in the Bat cave. There are a lot of other examples but that's just just a few. And in regards to the screaming, I woukd scream too if i were caught in a war between a masked vigilante and a complete psychopath. There was something though that I didn't quite pick up before, Vickiknew Bruce was Batman from when Bruce visited her at her apartment. It was in a behind the scenes interview, but she wanted him to feel comfortable enough with her to say it.
Thought that was quite interesting. Wonderful and solid performance by Basinger.
I found this article on Comics Alliance of someone complaining how Vicki Vale is depicted as a "Strong Female Character"...which she doesn't like. In fact, judging by this article, the author has a huge problem with every female character that has ever been depicted in action movies.
Quote
Vicki Vale And The Superficial 'Strong Female Character
by Juliet Kahn July 1, 2014 10:00 AM
Ah, I thought, as the camera panned lovingly down Vicki Vale's high-heeled, black-pantyhose-clad legs — here she is. The Strong Female Character. The 1989 model had fluffier hair than her successors, but that's really the only significant difference. She establishes her Totally Empowered cred early, makes eyes at the hero, then gets the hell out of the way as he and the (male, naturally) villain go about the business of advancing the plot. She snaps a photo once or twice to remind us that she's a globe-trotting photojournalist — the kind of photojournalist with no compunction toward sleeping with her subjects, but hey, whatever. She ends the film in the hero's arms, fulfilling her role as reward for his victory, with nary a whisper of the professional goals that drove her to him in the first place. She is pretty and in need of rescue and almost entirely in service to the male characters' plot and characterization—but she gets to be vaguely spunky and is slapped with a typically male career, so it's totally okay.
I can only imagine the interviews that took place upon the release of Batman, touting her modernity, her break with the damsels of the past, her ineffable 1989-ness. I'm sure the crew patted themselves on the back heartily for providing the women and girls of America with such a vibrant reflection and role model.
I'm sure of these things because 25 years later, very little has changed regarding how women like Kim Basinger's Vicki Vale are portrayed: superficially empowered and ultimately disposable.
The Strong Female Character sucks. She is not strong, and she's barely a character at all — although she is, as we are abundantly reminded, female. She is never the hero of the story, but nearly always the love interest and rarely a being of true agency. She is usually the only significant female character in the whole story, if not the only female character period. She is often introduced in ways that highlight her sex appeal (long, slow pans up her body as she strides sassily towards the camera seem perennially in vogue), but don't you get any ideas, silly boys, because she's an astrophysicist! Or a journalist, or a businesswoman, or a spy, or a hacker, or some other typically male, banally "badass" job that allows the director to feel his job is done as it regards positive female representation.
She might die or suffer sexual assault to further the male character's motivation, she might spend the last act in her underwear, most of her lines might as well be "TAKE ME NOW, YOU MUSTY STALLION," but hey, she's a five-time MMA champ fighter pilot who donates her salary to an orphaned ponies preserve! And she probably gets a feisty one-liner in about how no man tells her what to do!
Sometimes she gets to punch a background mook, or kick a bad guy in the balls, or use her feminine wiles to distract the villain at a key moment, or some other inessential but highly-touted moment of violence.
She is often sarcastic; the straight man in contrast to the male characters' goofiness. In theory, these things excuse the fact that everything about her revolves around the male characters and the plot that they engage in — in practice, they slap a "Girl Power!" sticker on the same old crap we've been fed since man developed storytelling.
She is always the love interest. Her goals and dreams, if they are mentioned at all, are left by the wayside by the story's conclusion. She is often in need of rescue. She has no inner life. Quite frankly, she's lucky if her characterization extends beyond "spunky and indistinctly intelligent." She is eclipsed by the other supporting characters, who are free to develop actual personalities. She is no one's favorite.
Vicki Vale is a Strong Female Character through and through. We are informed that she is a celebrated photojournalist, but her ambitions go largely unsaid after her first few scenes — lost, as they are, in the wildly unprofessional whirl of her affair with Bruce Wayne, ostensibly the subject of her next project. Overcome by the erotic power of Michael Keaton's perma-pursed lips, Vicki goes from competent woman of the world to hysterical schoolgirl before the movie is even half over. You can practically pinpoint the moment director Tim Burton threw up his hands and said, "Okay, I won at feminism! Let's move the hell on."
Vicki spends the rest of her screen time being menaced by the Joker with increasingly sexual overtones, screaming in terror, screaming in surprise, occasionally snapping a photo and getting herself noticed by the bad guys, and swooning over Bruce.
Even her wardrobe serves Bruce Wayne. She spends most of the film in girlish white dresses, symbolizing the sweetness and light she stands to bring to Bruce's dark world as Batman (as Alfred notes, "There's a certain weight that lifts when she is here.") If there is a low point — and, simultaneously, an emblem of her role — it is when Bruce, struggling to admit that he is Batman to a confused Vicki, snaps, "You're a real nice girl and I like you a lot, but right now, shut up." Oh Vicki, no matter what your resume says you're just a moody little miss at heart!
There's also the fact that Vicki is one of the only women in the movie. There's, um, "Sugarlumps," the Joker's dotty moll played by Jeri Hall, who is later mutilated, presumably drugged into oblivion, and commits suicide. There's also the ill-fated anchorwoman who spends most of her three minutes of screen time dying and dead. And... Bruce's mom? Sure, let's count Martha Wayne, who's murdered on-screen, and the Martha Wayne-like woman who's mugged at the beginning of the film. Collectively, these women account for maybe fifteen minutes of screen time and serve as decoration or plot device.
Beyond their meager contributions, the movie is almost bizarrely devoid of women — shots of thronging reporters and bad guys are a sea of white dudes, and only a few female faces pepper crowds of confused bystanders and partygoers. Vicki isn't just the main female character — she is the only female character of substance. She stands for her entire gender, for half the population — and she does so really, really badly.
Strong Female Characters like Vicki Vale are the result of creators wanting the credit without doing the dirty work. They know relying on the wilting princesses and buxom housewives of yesteryear no longer flies, but they don't actually want to think of women as people. So women, in movies (and books, and TV shows, and everything) are placed upon a different pedestal — one that allows them to be everything and nothing at all. They karate chop without ever delivering the deathblow, they suffer for other's characterization, their bodies are splayed alluringly across any and all promotional material, but they will never be the star.
Born, as I was, in 1990, I spent my early years confronted with Vicki Vales at every turn — though in children's media they're more commonly known as Good Role Models For Girls. They were frustrating when they weren't boring. I clung to them at first, waiting for the moment when they would do more than just dance vaguely around with a wrench, proclaiming loudly that girls can fix cars TOO, you dummies! But the moment never came, and I grew bored. I gravitated towards stories like Sailor Moon, where the plethora of female characters are, by their manifold nature, allowed to develop naturally. I eschewed comics for the Warner Bros. cartoons based on the DC Comics heroes, where at least there were two girls on the Justice League and the Teen Titans. I learned to grit my teeth through otherwise interesting media that indulged the omnipresent flaw.
And, in time, I learned that I was not alone in my frustration. No one really likes the Strong Female Character. No one leaves the theater talking about how fantastic her back story was or how moved they were by her heroism. She is, as female characters have been throughout history, a fantasy object for men — to be enjoyed, then disposed of (note how easily she is replaced by Catwoman in Batman Returns — although Vicki Vale warrants at least an awkward conversation about her absence, unlike countless Bond girls of cinema history).
To women, the Strong Female Character is, under a particularly benign interpretation, a model to aspire to. More truthfully, she is an agent of control, albeit one in disguise. But her Krav Maga skills don't liberate her — they just add to the laundry list of things women are supposed to be for men. She's sexy, but not ****ty. She's smart, but not nerdy. She's spunky, but not a bitch. In the years since Batman '89 she's become a badass — but never at the expense of the male hero.
I am not the only person (and definitely not the only woman) to call bullsh*t on this, but the Strong Female Character endures. In superhero movies, she's pretty much the only mold for female characters of any elevated prominence. She is nearly every major female character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. She's probably going to be Gamora in August's Guardians of the Galaxy. I'd bet cold hard cash that she will be Zack Snyder's Wonder Woman. In these kinds of films, the Strong Female Character is, effectively, all women. And yet year after year the reviews roll in, naming these characters as the weakest parts of the film, the romances they are so defined by boilerplate, and their scenes dramatically leaden.
There is profit to be made in actual characterization. Witness the massive female following Mako Mori of Pacific Rim inspired nearly overnight. The parameters were barely shifted, but in getting a little more screen time, a little more independent characterization, and in being freed from the constraints of Love Interest, Mako gained a soul and made the movie better.
Along those lines, we are asking, as we have always asked, to be afforded the respect so unthinkingly given to men. We are asking to be seen, and depicted, as individuals on our own terms. We are asking creators to make, in effect, more nuanced, more carefully crafted, more thoughtfully considered movies. Which is what they're supposed to be doing anyway.
There were a lot of things I enjoyed about Burton's Batman. His Gotham felt right to me in a way no other director's ever has. The art direction was incredible. I totally, shamelessly enjoyed Prince's soundtrack. But Vicki Vale wasn't just irritating to me as a feminist — she was irritating to me as someone who enjoys well-told stories. The Strong Female Character does not represent women, does not inspire girls, and does not entertain moviegoers. Twenty-five years after Batman '89, It's time for her to hang up her boxing gloves, put up her perfectly waxed legs, and retire for good.
Source: http://comicsalliance.com/stop-the-press-vicki-vale-and-the-superficial-strong-female-character/
I enjoyed Vale in Batman. She was intrepid, inquisitive and a tender hearted heroine. She was the balance in the madness. In fact the reason she wore white at the movie's finale was deliberate in depicting her as the light in the darkness.
See behind the scenes of Batman.
Her two scenes with Keaton in the Batcave remains two of the best scenes in the Bat franchise. Wonderful performance by Basinger.
I too have a long affection for the Vicki Vale character, thanks in large part to Kim Basinger in Batman 1989.
I also remember always being a bit annoyed by the DC Comics Batman titles, over the sheer lack of Vicki Vale when I first began consistently reading them back right before the whole Knightfall storyline kicked off. I later saw that, thanks to the back issue bins, she did infact make some appearances during the late 80's, very early 1990's, but was noticeably and unfortunately (atleast in my estimation) absent for the overwhelming majority of the decade.
Fortunately, the 2000's were a little more kinder.
Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 22 Apr 2015, 04:55
I too have a long affection for the Vicki Vale character, thanks in large part to Kim Basinger in Batman 1989.
I also remember always being a bit annoyed by the DC Comics Batman titles, over the sheer lack of Vicki Vale when I first began consistently reading them back right before the whole Knightfall storyline kicked off. I later saw that, thanks to the back issue bins, she did infact make some appearances during the late 80's, very early 1990's, but was noticeably and unfortunately (atleast in my estimation) absent for the overwhelming majority of the decade.
Fortunately, the 2000's were a little more kinder.
Vicki Vale did appear in the comics in the early 80s during Gerry Conway's run. She had an on-and-off romantic relationship with Bruce while gathering photographic evidence to prove he is Batman.
I'm looking back at Bruce and Vicki's relationship, and I'm reminded by an argument that thecolorsblend made in another thread - that in the end, it was possible that Bruce deep down wasn't truly in love with Vicki, and felt it was easy to let her go.
The two may not have known each other that long, but we have to remember that (at least as far as we know) Bruce didn't have any intimate contact with anyone since he became Batman. And unbeknownst to Vicki, he tried to avoid her because of his secret life as Batman. He tries to explain his complicated life, but is unable to because he has never been able to confide with someone before, other than Alfred. Bruce's commitment to being Batman deprives him from having any real contact with other people. I guess Vicki understood this by the end of the film, and realized that their was no future in their relationship.
Thanks for the shout out! If you really want to bend spoons a little bit, you could argue that Vicki represents Bruce attempting to satisfy and normalize himself within the context of a normal, healthy relationship with a psychologically stable woman. It doesn't work out so well.
Selina, then, is Bruce attempting to satisfy and normalize himself within the context of an abnormal, unhealthy relationship with a psychologically unhinged woman. That doesn't work out too well either.
Thus in Batman Forever we see that women aren't his problem per sé. He's a f**ked up, mentally scarred individual and until he resolves those conflicts, he can never be happy no matter what choices he makes in life.
Julie Madison in B&R, then, is kind of going full circle in that she's clearly looking for a husband and has her sights set on Bruce... who, though no longer a messed up individual with serious vengeance issues, can't commit to marriage since in a way he's already married to Batman. It's a sacrifice he's willingly making as opposed to a loss he's helpless to prevent. He's motivated by different values and philosophies by the time of B&R such that "losing the girl" isn't a personal setback in the same way it was in any of the previous films.
But that's just me, I could be wrong.
Great analysis, Colors. Writers have made Bruce Wayne's relationships to play out in many ways, both in comics and in the four films we mention.
I had a discussion with a Nolan fanboy about B89 the other week on another forum, and he criticised the film for making Joker too obsessed with Vicki Vale and not interested in Batman as a psychological counterpart, like TDK tried to do.
He even goes so far to say the Joker was in love with Vicki. But is he really? Now yes, while he was definitely fascinated by Vicki, I don't see him truly cherishing her considering she tries to kill her together with Batman by the end of the movie. After all, the Joker is a flippant lunatic who kills on a whim, as you can see when he disposes his own loyal sidekick Bob.
Sure, maybe you can suggest that he eventually lost interest in Vicki. But then again, since when did the Joker ever have any genuine affection for human life? He even drove his own girlfriend Alicia crazy and laughed it off. I guess in many ways, Nicholson's Joker was just as chaotic and random as TDK's Joker. What's puzzling is the fanboy even suggested that Nolan was taking a subtle dig at Burton's supposed misunderstanding of the Joker, because he thought the character in TDK had tricked the audience into thinking he was interested in Rachel Dawes before throwing her out of the penthouse. I don't know about anyone else here, but I never got the impression the Joker was ever interested in Rachel at all. Yes, he mentioned how beautiful she was during the penthouse scene, but it never sounded as if he was genuinely fascinated by her, so I wasn't surprised when he tries to kill her immediately after.
Of course, the same fanboy even suggested that Burton's films were "frivolous, anti-comic book movies that put style over substance and characters". This is despite the fact the Burton villains have way more character development than TDK's Joker and how they reflect Batman in some way. Never mind the fact the films not only had a strong influence for the beloved BTAS, but Nolan's first two films lifted scenes from B89 alone e.g. "I'm Batman", Joker saying "Come on!" to Batman driving in some sort of vehicle approaching towards him in the middle of the street.
Not bad for "frivolous, anti-comic book movies".
Rachel was 'beautiful' in The Dark Knight?!?
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 7 Jul 2018, 09:32
He even drove his own girlfriend Alicia crazy and laughed it off.
Life imitates art for most men, in this case.
Listening to Nolan fans trying to dismiss other versions is draining. The scary part is you get the sense they actually believe the bullsh*t they're spouting. I can get building up the version you enjoy the best, but the way they act so freaking militant over the ones they think are inferior (read: EVERY SINGLE VERSION FROM 1939 TO NOW THAT CHRISTOPHER NOLAN WASN'T INVOLVED WITH) and come up with all this off-the-wall stuff to try to run them down is just...ug. You want to grab them by their ears and give their head a good shake. Or just tell them to get a life. I usually try to avoid them at most cost because they're so, like, fanatical over it that it's not a fun discussion or debate with them. And liking those versions isn't enough. Heaven forbid you act like any version is better. I remember on the cesspool that was the IMDb message boards, this MORON trying to list off all the ways he felt that "Mask of the Phantasm" wasn't a good movie because he'd seen people suggest that it was the best Batman movie (which it is IMO), which obviously the only thing that registers in his head is that they obviously feel TDK isn't.
One of my favorite things about Batman is all the different versions, moods, etc. My own mood and view on life changes with the wind, and yet there is a version of the character and the "Bat Mythos" or whatever the right way to say it is for every mood and for every personality. And they're all great in their own way.
But don't try to tell a Nolan fanboy that. At least, unless you are up to date on your vaccinations.
Quote from: Catwoman on Sat, 7 Jul 2018, 17:28
Listening to Nolan fans trying to dismiss other versions is draining. The scary part is you get the sense they actually believe the bullsh*t they're spouting.
It's not just the Nolan fans though. Unfortunately, even a lot of Marvel fans have become militant in their preference, going so far to say there were no good Marvel films before the MCU. Including the Raimi Spider-Man films.
The truth is, pop culture itself attracts a lot bandwagoners who don't know what they're talking about, because they get caught up in the hype. Make no mistake, the entertainment industry encourages this behaviour. Never underestimate the power of critical consensus and how it influences people's perceptions. Particularly if a new movie comes out.
If the critics held the Burton films with the same nostalgic affection as they do for the first two Reeve Superman films, you'd see more people praising Keaton as "their" Batman. If the critics actually did their jobs by analysing the Nolan films properly and criticised their obvious faults, that fandom wouldn't be anywhere near as loud as they today. If every DCEU film was praised as Wonder Woman, you'd see more fans saying DC is brilliant, and wouldn't mention the issues that supposedly bother them.
In other words, the majority of people can't think for themselves.
Quote from: Catwoman on Sat, 7 Jul 2018, 17:28
One of my favorite things about Batman is all the different versions, moods, etc. My own mood and view on life changes with the wind, and yet there is a version of the character and the "Bat Mythos" or whatever the right way to say it is for every mood and for every personality. And they're all great in their own way.
The character definitely has different interpretations over the years, but personally, I'm going to call something out if I don't like something. Which is fine. Everybody has their likes and dislikes.
For instance, if somebody didn't enjoy how the two main characters became responsible for creating each other as a new spin on how one bad day can turn somebody's life upside (similar to The Killing Joke), I can't convince them to like it if that's not the story they wanted to go for. I can tolerate if people don't care if Vicki Vale was arguably a gateway in the journey towards picking up the details why Bruce is Batman. Again, if that's not the preference they would've wanted, fine, I'd let bygones be bygones. But if people are going to criticise it in favour of how supposedly "great" something like TDK is, I'm not going to hold back in retorting with legitimate criticisms when they say something ridiculous.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Sat, 7 Jul 2018, 11:34
Rachel was 'beautiful' in The Dark Knight?!?
For somebody who has expressed feminist views in the GOTG2 thread, you seem pretty happy to make an unflattering comment about Maggie Gyllenhaal's looks as the love interest. I can't help but imagine feminists would take offense to your discriminating behaviour.
Anyway, putting that bullsh*t aside, here is this interview of Kim Basinger while promoting B89, talking about how she sees Vicki Vale and her experience with the Batsuit while on the set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMXCL9UYOG4
Did anyone else find it unusual when Vicki is holding a bowl of popcorn and eating some as she watches Bruce confront the Joker during the "Let's get nuts!" scene? It's very eccentric. I guess it is supposed to be some sort of coping mechanism.
Haha what? I never noticed that. Always something to look for in the background of this film.
Quote from: Slash Man on Thu, 24 Jan 2019, 05:59
Haha what? I never noticed that. Always something to look for in the background of this film.
Have you ever noticed popcorn featured in both the apartment scene and the Waynes murder scene? The Pale Moonlight quote by Jack's Joker wasn't the only detail connecting to both scenes. What an odd coincidence.