Now, this is something Batman & Robin doesn't seem to get much credit for (and we all know Batman & Robin doesn't get much credit at all); continuity between films.
Much of this is written from the perspective of my child self. But Schumacher's films were catered more towards the younger audience, so this shouldn't be too much of a shock. Anyways, Batman Forever and Batman & Robin were the two films that really meshed together well. The "other" Batmans (which I only caught on television airings) seemed like their own entities. But there was something about the tone and characters that kept BF and B&R on the same level. Despite Bruce Wayne being different, Chris O'Donnell provided the necessary segue. The Burton films were all pretty standalone (changing love interests, less Gordon, no Harvey Dent), but relationship between Bruce and Dick was something that made me feel like I was watching a series.
Don't get me wrong, Burton's films are both gems, but I realize they don't actually put forth a larger story. Despite seeming more like a reboot to me, Batman Forever actually has decent ties with the first movie and Batman's background, and initiates connective ties that go beyond just having the same actor. In this sense, Batman Returns is pretty inconsequential; I might experiment and try watching Batman and Batman Forever back to back...
Shumacher did a decent job with continuity, but he wasn't that great in other ares.
I don't think any of the 3 sequels adds more continuity than the others, maybe BR has a slight edge;
Batman returns: Vicky Vale referenced twice.
Batman Forever: Chase making a Catwoman reference
Batman & Robin: conversation about the flying graysons, the brief shot of two face and the riddler suits, and Alfreds joke about bringing the batmobile back in one piece (as it had been damaged in both of the previous 2 films).
Now I wonder how much of this was WB's doing? We all know they wanted to market these films for the kids so it stands to reason that they wouldn't want to over reference the other films to avoid making it a prerequisite to see the previous films.
going by what you said about returns, slash, maybe it was just horrid christmastime nightmare for bruce.
naaaah. but i get your point. i guess part of its gloriousness is it stands alone like that.
Quote from: riddler on Sun, 5 Oct 2014, 16:55
I don't think any of the 3 sequels adds more continuity than the others, maybe BR has a slight edge;
Batman returns: Vicky Vale referenced twice.
Batman Forever: Chase making a Catwoman reference
Batman & Robin: conversation about the flying graysons, the brief shot of two face and the riddler suits, and Alfreds joke about bringing the batmobile back in one piece (as it had been damaged in both of the previous 2 films).
Now I wonder how much of this was WB's doing? We all know they wanted to market these films for the kids so it stands to reason that they wouldn't want to over reference the other films to avoid making it a prerequisite to see the previous films.
Thing is, I don't really count the passing references as really strong connectors, the Catwoman one seemed kinda cryptic to those not attentive. Penguin's mention of eagle scouts turning into "crazed clowns" might be a reference to the Joker, but no more than an Easter egg.
I'm just saying while all the films tend to stand alone, Forever and Batman & Robin seem the most connected.
I always thought the "crazed clowns" wasn't a reference to The Joker but the all the goons with the clown face paint in Returns. Such as the one who takes Selena hostage at the beginning.
I never really made the connection......
Don't forget the Batwing. That certainly counts as continuity for me. Not sure about the Batboat though because the BatSKIboat was a radically different design. And Forever's seemed like more of a homage to Adam West's tv model.
My favorite connection is the great dialogue between Bruce and Dick in the Batcave: "Your family wasn't killed by a maniac....Yes, they were!". If the flashback of the Wayne murders wasn't enough to convince you, a fairly decent recreation of the sequence from the original movie, this dialogue most certainly will. Bruce is not talking about some mere Joe Chill thug here when relating his past to a shocked Robin. Jack Napier was clearly established as an "A1 nut boy" prior to becoming The Joker. Who else could he possibly be referring to?
Furthermore in a deleted scene there was further emphasis on the past history which I'm sad was cut because it rams the point home even more. Alfred announces to Bruce that his "parents are avenged..." by the death of Napier, ergo mission technically complete, when asking him to consider retiring.
Quote from: Cobblepot4Mayor on Thu, 16 Jul 2015, 17:29
Furthermore in a deleted scene there was further emphasis on the past history which I'm sad was cut because it rams the point home even more. Alfred announces to Bruce that his "parents are avenged..." by the death of Napier, ergo mission technically complete, when asking him to consider retiring.
That was my favourite deleted scene and I was disappointed it was cut out...except I thought it was out of character for Bruce when said that he never felt in love before when Alfred encouraged him to start dating Chase Meridian. It's like he forgot about Vicki and Selina.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 17 Jul 2015, 10:01
Quote from: Cobblepot4Mayor on Thu, 16 Jul 2015, 17:29
Furthermore in a deleted scene there was further emphasis on the past history which I'm sad was cut because it rams the point home even more. Alfred announces to Bruce that his "parents are avenged..." by the death of Napier, ergo mission technically complete, when asking him to consider retiring.
That was my favourite deleted scene and I was disappointed it was cut out...except I thought it was out of character for Bruce when said that he never felt in love before when Alfred encouraged him to start dating Chase Meridian. It's like he forgot about Vicki and Selina.
He knew Selina for about a week.
I think the whole point of Vicki's struggles with Bruce in B89 was that he clearly didn't love her. Like Dagenspear says, he only knew Selina for about a week. If that.
More continuity. Riddler broke into Wayne Manor and then 'sploded the Batcave real good. Later Batman wanders down to the lower level by the water and tries to decide between taking the Batboat or the Batwing to confront Two Face and the Riddler.
The Batcave's destruction wasn't explicitly mentioned in B&R... but it wasn't swept under the rug either. Most of the action in the Batcave in B&R takes place on the lower level. It's as if Bruce hasn't completely repaired all the damage done BF. Or maybe isn't planning to.
For a movie series that doesn't get much credit for continuity, that's a good catch on Schumacher's part.
You're right that Bruce knew Selina for only a week, if that. But I'm not that convinced that their relationship was only a fling. I always thought Bruce asking Selina to go back home and be together with him while trying to talk her out of killing Schreck (especially his "split down the center" line) meant that he had intimate feelings for her. And Selina must have had some feelings for him too if she said "I could live with you in your castle forever, but I can't live with myself". For what it's worth, the scripts intended that there was romantic chemistry between the two.
Interesting point about Vicki Vale though. I guess I always assumed that Bruce must have had some affection for her if he went through the trouble of going to her apartment and tried to explain his behavior, and nearly revealed that he's Batman. At best, I guess you could argue that Bruce thought he could've potentially loved her, but realized later on that he didn't. But that's probably what you meant anyway.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 27 Jul 2015, 09:59
You're right that Bruce knew Selina for only a week, if that. But I'm not that convinced that their relationship was only a fling. I always thought Bruce asking Selina to go back home and be together with him while trying to talk her out of killing Schreck (especially his "split down the center" line) meant that he had intimate feelings for her. And Selina must have had some feelings for him too if she said "I could live with you in your castle forever, but I can't live with myself". For what it's worth, the scripts intended that there was romantic chemistry between the two.
Interesting point about Vicki Vale though. I guess I always assumed that Bruce must have had some affection for her if he went through the trouble of going to her apartment and tried to explain his behavior, and nearly revealed that he's Batman. At best, I guess you could argue that Bruce thought he could've potentially loved her, but realized later on that he didn't. But that's probably what you meant anyway.
His feelings for Selina, by my understanding, was rooted in the negative connection of their self-destructive tendencies.
A very small easter egg; when Barbara successfully hacks into Alfreds CD rom, it clearly shows images of the batwing and bat boat.
Stylistically Forever and B&R feel very much as two connecting stories. But I preferred Clooney's Bruce Wayne to Kilmer's because he seemed more like a mentor to Chris O'Donnell's Dick Grayson than Val. To me Val's Bruce seemed a little too close in age to Dick to be that adult voice in his life. But in terms of story telling, I thought Schumacher was pretty consistent between those two. B&R was a good continuation because Bruce had found his purpose at the end of Forever and could be the hero he needed (and wanted) to be. So Clooney's Batman was a logical progression in that development. And honestly? I was pleased with that. It was great to finally see a Batman that wasn't strapped to so much personal grief. I know some prefer their hero in that frame of mind, but I found it refreshing to just be a hero driven to do good things without being chased by his past as much.