Batman-Online.com

Add any that you feel are appropriate or that I missed.

PILOT:
- Not a comic book reference, but the idea of Selina Kyle witnessing the murders of Thomas and Martha Wayne actually comes from the Tim Burton/Jim Steinman musical that never got off the ground.

- The scene of Jim Gordon taking down a mentally ill criminal and saving a hostage seems to have been influenced by Year One. His military background also comes from Year One.

- UPDATE: The idea of Harvey Bullock being partnered with a young Jim Gordon is taken from Batman: Earth One, though in the comic, the roles are reversed, with Gordon as the veteran and Bullock as the young one new to the GCPD.

- Harvey Bullock is presented as morally gray and with corrupt ties to Fish Mooney. This is actually similar to the character's initial appearance in which he was a corrupt cop on the take from Rupert Thorne. He later has a change of heart and becomes loyal to Gordon afterwards.

- The idea of Jim Gordon comforting a young Bruce Wayne stems back to Steve Englehart's treatment for the 1989 Batman film in which Gordon was at Bruce's parents' funeral.
This idea was repeated and developed further in the Sam Hamm draft where Gordon was the officer comforting Bruce, though this was never crevealed in the movie.

While speculation persists that the officer with Bruce in a flashback scene of The Batman cartoon was Gordon, it was Batman Begins that brought the idea to life. Wizard's "What If?" Ultimate Batman feature also had the specific idea of Gordon being the one to investigate the Waynes' deaths.

And while Year One presented the idea of Gordon transferring to Gotham from Chicago, the TV show has it so that Gordon grew up in the city and will rise up the ranks as a junior detective, as opposed to transferring while a lieutenant and already married with a pregnant wife.

Comic book wise, Len Wein's The Untold Legend of the Batman had Gordon as a cop during the time that Thomas Wayne took down Lew Moxon and, I believe, the Zero Year storyline in the New 52 comics has Gordon as an active member of the GCPD when the Waynes are killed.

- While not explicitly stated, Alfred's words to Bruce- on keeping his head high and not letting other see him cry- as they walk away from the murder scene implies Alfred's military background and it seems that the Sean Pertwee portrayal has been influenced by the tougher, more blue collar Alfred that started with Michael Caine and carried over into Geoff Johns's Earth One and the short-lived animated series Beware the Batman.

- Sarah Essen, much like Bullock, Crispus Allen, and Montoya, is presented as older than her comic counterpart, with her serving as Gordon's boss in the show. In the comics, at one point, Essen became the police commissioner and briefly served as Gordon's boss when he was forced to step down.

- The name of Mayor Aubrey James actually comes from Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #204, where he's the Mayor during a time when Thomas Wayne is still alive.

- Edward Nygma is obviously the future Riddler. While none of the origins in the comic have him working for the GCPD, a reformed Riddler once became a private detective in Paul Dini's run of Detective Comics, which may have influenced the decision to have him as part of the police force in this origin series.

- Oswald Cobblepot hates the nickname of "penguin." This is likely a reference to the comic origin where bullies gave him the nickname when he was growing up, due to his appearance and his clothes.

- Oswald's job at Fish Mooney's club could also be foreshadowing of his future as the owner of the Iceberg Lounge.

- Jim Gordon and Barbara Kean's apartment seems to be in a clock tower, judging by the big clock face in the wall behind Barbara when she's introduced. This could possibly be a reference to the future Barbara Gordon's (Jr.) clocktower as Oracle.

- Bullock tells Gordon to meet him at an intersection on "Grundy" street- obvious reference to Solomon Grundy.

- "Ivy Pepper" is obviously meant to be the future Poison Ivy and her father is killed by Harvey Bullock when he's attacking Gordon. In the comics, not much is known about the character's parents. The Neil Gaiman origin simply has them as emotionally distant while another comic said that they were dead by the time that Batman was fighting her in one adventure. In the New 52, Ivy's father kills her mother and Ivy, in turn, uses her powers to kill her father.

- Gordon gains press attention when he works with Bullock in taking down Mario Pepper, though his hand is injured in the process. This may be a reference to the comic Gordon of Gotham, which is a prequel covering Gordon's days in the Chicago Police force, where he also gains press by taking down criminals and getting wounded during the battle.

- Oswald snitching to Montoya and Allen could be a reference to Penguin being often used as Batman's snitch in the future.

- Montoya's implied past relationship with Barbara Kean is a reference to the character's sexuality in the comics. Montoya appears to be in the closet at this point in her career as well.

- The standup comedian in Fish Mooney's club is meant to be one of the many side characters foreshadowing the Joker, according to creator Bruno Heller. This is a reference to The Killing Joke, where it's explored that Joker could've been a former failed comedian. In this case, though, Fish seems to have faith in him.

- It's likely that Oswald's leg injury, from the confrontation with Fish Mooney, will cause his "penguin" waddle.

Thank you! All of these are great bits!

Episode 2: Selina Kyle

- The opening scene with Bruce by the candle is visually reminiscent of the "vow" from as far back as Detective Comics #38 in which Bruce made his vow to war on criminals by candlelight. This imagery has been repeated over the years.

- UPDATE: This episode further establishes that Alfred is having difficulty in his new role as a father figure. This was influenced once again by Batman: Earth One, which explored the same avenue of Alfred having to learn to be a guardian, as well as gave Alfred a tougher, militaristic persona that also influenced the Gotham characterization.

- While probably not intentional, Selina's street nickname "Cat" echoes how "The Cat" was the character's original name before becoming Catwoman.

- UPDATE: Selina demonstrates that she's been to juvie before. In the comics, shortly after her parents died, Selina hit the streets and got caught for stealing. She was sent to Seagate juvenile detention center, but escaped from the cruel warden in Catwoman #0 (Pre-New 52).

- We meet Oswald's mother, Gertrude Kapelput, for the first time. Oswald being close to his mother also stems from the comics, with various instances having her raise him on her own and force him to carry an umbrella so that he wouldn't catch pneumonia, like what killed his father. In other tales, the death of Penguin's mother followed by the closure of the family bird shop leads into Oswald's life of crime. As far as I know, the only time Oswald's mother has been named was when she was Esther Cobblepot in Batman Returns.

- The Dollmaker is mentioned as the boss to the child snatchers. The character was originally a Plastic Man and Superman villain until the New 52 revamped him as a Batman villain, whose father was killed by a young James Gordon. The Dollmaker also appeared as the main villain in Arrow in the episode "Broken Dolls."

- Selina clawing the thug's eyes and Bruce sneaking up on Alfred and Gordon are obvious instances of foreshadowing.

- There's mention of Selina's mother and ambiguity of whether or not she's still alive. In the comics, Selina was an orphan after her mother committed suicide and her father drank himself to death. So far no mention is made of Selina's sister in the comics, Maggie.

This is a great thread, BatmAngelus. Perhaps when the first season is concluded these observations could be consolidated into a site feature.

I still haven't seen the first two episodes of Gotham yet, but it's good to know it's taking its cues from the comics.

Thanks, SN. Looking forward to your insights and contributions when you get around to seeing it.

Not much on the comic book front this week. Here's what I've got:

"The Balloonman"

- The mock sword fight between Alfred and Bruce more firmly implies Alfred has combat training and possibly alludes to his background as an actor, from the voices he was using.

- UPDATE: It also teases the possibility of Alfred training Bruce in combat, which was an idea that was used in Batman: Earth One, as well as the adaptations Batman Live and Beware the Batman.

- UPDATE: Oswald begins using fake names, in this episode, to disguise himself. In the comics, Penguin went by different aliases for awhile, including Mr. Boniface in his first appearance in Detective Comics #58 as well as I. Waddle in Detective Comics #67, before it was finally decided to reveal his actual name.

- It's implied that Montoya's relationship with Barbara fell apart due to her alcoholism. In the storyline, 52, Montoya was an alcoholic.

- Maroni's plans for Gotham involve Arkham in some way. In Matt Wagner's Batman and the Monster Men, Maroni helped fund Hugo Strange's experiments on Arkham patients. (Thanks to Emergency Awesome on YouTube for pointing this out.)

- Maroni and Falcone's rivalry seems to be influenced by The Long Halloween, which had them as rivals, too.

- The woman on TV's plea for the Balloon Man to go after her landlord feels reminiscent of The Dark Knight Returns animated adaptation in which a man on TV says the same thing about Batman. (This line is not in the comic)

Even less this past week.

"Arkham"

Obviously, dubbing the neighborhood "Arkham City" is straight from the video game of the same name.

There are references to the "old asylum" which leaves room for the idea that it had the same origin as Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, where it was originally opened by Amadeus Arkham over a century ago.

While there's nothing explicit in the comics about the Waynes having plans for Arkham, Batman: Earth One has it so that Martha Wayne was in the Arkham family and, thus, owns the asylum, which could've influenced the idea for the TV show of Thomas and Martha having plans for it.

UPDATE: Maroni's right hand man, Frankie Carbone, is a reference to Frankie "Angel" Carbone in The Long Halloween who is one of Maroni's henchmen there as well.

UPDATE: Detective Alvarez is actually a GCPD character from the comics as well.

"Viper"

The obvious one is that "Viper" is an early version of Venom, from giving its users super strength to even being green.

In this version, it was designed by a subsidiary of Wayne Enterprises. In the comics, Batman encountered Venom for the first time after failing to save a young girl. Her father was the one who developed the drug. The episode makes me want to revisit the comic a little more, but I'm not expecting there to be many more connections.

"The Spirit of the Goat" 

The character was mistaken for Scarecrow in the trailers, but there was no connection. They did have an opportunity to tie into Detective Comics #880 in which Joker said that the name Gotham meant a "safe place for goats" and could've said the Spirit of the Goat was the spirit of Gotham, but they didn't do this.

The young, idealistic Bullock in the opening felt a little closer to the Batman: Earth One version. In both cases, Bullock changed after he encountered a serial killer who preyed on the young rich.

It may have just been me, though, but Bullock's "Holy ghost on a bicycle" comment felt like a reference to Robin in the 1960s show.

UPDATE: This also may have been a coincidence but Bullock's comparison of the words "therapist" and "the rapist" was also done by Lois Lane in Batman: Hush. Again, this may be coincidental.

Next week (SPOILERS)...



It looks like we'll meet Victor Zsasz and, the week after, Tommy Elliot and The Mask/"Richard Sionis"...Black Mask's father?

Nice one on the "goat" reference BatmAngelus...didn't know that.

Have to say, the last few episodes of Gotham have improved in my opinion.

Definitely. This latest one was the best one yet, in my opinion.

I've done updates to a lot of the previous posts (see UPDATE on each one for the new bits), after finding more.

"Penguin's Umbrella"
The only thing I can think of is that the show adapts the Mr. Zsasz from Batman Begins in the fact that this Zsasz is bald (which I think got incorporated into the comics after the release of Begins) and, more importantly, works as a hitman for Carmine Falcone. In the comics, Zsasz turned into a killer after an existential experience caused by losing all his money to the Penguin in a card game (which makes me wonder if Oswald and Victor will cross paths in the future).

Also, Mekia Cox played the doctor who helped perform surgery on Gordon. She was credited in early press releases as Dr. Leslie Thompkins, but that role will be filled by Morena Baccarin in future episodes. Since the doctor was not named onscreen, she could be a different character. Still, the scene is very similar to a few times when Leslie helped a wounded Bruce/Batman in teh comics.

Is it just me, or does Maroni look a lot like he does in Batman Forever?

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20090906235915%2Fbatman%2Fimages%2F5%2F57%2FMaroni.gif&hash=4521d38c63f88442128c24bde9151d5982580a57)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnyoobserver.files.wordpress.com%2F2014%2F10%2Fgrg-5.png%3Fw%3D543%26amp%3Bh%3D301&hash=56064eddfa6d4c686b6067324c683ac89b551322)

Call it coincidence, but I definitely see it.

I agree.

For some reason (possibly because of Batman Forever), I have always pictured Maroni as quite a stocky, brutish type much like Dennis Paladino and David Zayas' portrayals.  Whereas I see his rival, Falcone, as a slightly more elegant, old school gangster.

I don't know if this has any basis in the comic-books but it does seem to be the way it's playing out with the show.

Wow, it was really cool to see the "things change" exchange between Penguin and Fish. No doubt in my mind they had Returns as a prime influence.

The shady black market surgeon also reminds me of the Joker's plastic surgeon from Batman.

At first, I thought the "Things change" line from Penguin could've been a coincidence but when Fish repeated it back, I figure it had to be a homage.

"The Mask"

The surgeon doesn't seem to be named but I'd love it if he turned out to be The Crime Doctor.
EDIT: According to the cast list, the character was named Dr. Felton. In the comics, this was the name of Mr. Freeze's doctor at Arkham.

The bully Tommy Elliot is the future Hush and is obviously more antagonistic from the start. He was clearly familiar with Bruce from before, which could imply that they used to be friends, like in the comics. Tommy's questions about the death of Bruce's parents could tie into his own obsession with killing his parents, though in the comics, he killed his father before Thomas and Martha Wayne were killed. Obviously, the Elliots are still alive in this version since Tommy mentions his parents.

UPDATE: Alfred actually did help Bruce with a school bully in The Batman Chronicles #5, "Of Mice and Men," though that story took place when Thomas and Martha Wayne were still alive. In an interesting contrast between the comic version and the TV version, the comic book Alfred advised Bruce to use his mind to defeat the bully, rather than his fist. This was his only role in helping Bruce defeat the bully. Both the comic and the TV show demonstrate this as the beginning of Alfred becoming an enabler to Bruce's future lifestyle and desire for justice.

The Mask/Richard Sionis seems to be a version of Black Mask/Roman Sionis. It's unclear whether this is meant to be the show's Black Mask or if the character is Black Mask's father (in the comics Roman's father was named Charles).

UPDATE: Barbara leaves Jim at the end. This would actually be the first of many times she's done this, in the comics (see Dark Victory as an example where Jim and Barbara are separated).

"Harvey Dent"

The show seems to take on the Eye of the Beholder/Long Halloween take that Harvey already possessed the two-headed coin before he became Two-Face. In the original version of the origin, the coin was Maroni's and Harvey adopted it for himself.

Montoya and Allen introduce Harvey to Gordon. Montoya's also the one who greets Harvey first in his introductory scene. In the comics, Harvey is infatuated with Montoya, not realizing that she's a lesbian.

Dick Lovecraft is not a comic book character. However, his last name is notable since author H.P. Lovecraft coined the Arkham name (and the "Arkham Sanitorium") in his 1933 short story "The Thing On the Doorstep."

Harvey's outburst toward Lovecraft is reminiscent of the Eye of the Beholder/BTAS take of Harvey Dent, who had early manifestations of his anger/other personality when he was a practicing attorney.

"Lovecraft"
This episode didn't seem to have comic book influences so much as influences from other adaptations.

The Narrows is mentioned a few times. This Gotham neighborhood is mainly an invention of Nolan and Goyer for Batman Begins, though there was a Gotham Narrows Bridge referenced in Len Wein's Clayface III story.

The female assassin, while not named onscreen, was meant to be Copperhead, according to The Wrap:
http://www.thewrap.com/gothams-copperhead-debuts-on-foxs-fall-finale-exclusive-photos/
In the comics, Copperhead is a male assassin who's able to suffocate victims in a similar way to the Gotham character. It was the Arkham Origins game that reimagined the character as a female and clarified that the Copperhead name was a moniker belonging to a whole group of assassins. If the show follows the same principle, this could leave room for Bruce to grow up and encounter a younger successor who is closer to the comics.

"Rogues' Gallery"

And we're back.

- Much like his comic book counterpart, Oswald has taken the name Penguin and changed it from a nickname he hated into the criminal name he uses to establish himself in the gangster world.

- Leslie Thompkins has been added to the show now. She was originally created as the woman who comforted Bruce in Crime Alley, she's now been reimagined as a doctor who meets Gordon at Arkham Asylum (and could be a potential love interest. One episode in and I think Thompkins is already more palatable to fans than Barbara's character. One wonders how it would've turned out if they introduced her in the pilot, kept Gordon single, cut Barbara entirely, and had the main romance between the two characters from the beginning).

- Selina brings Ivy to the Gordon penthouse. Catwoman and Ivy would later become roommates, with Harley Quinn, in the Gotham City Sirens series.

- Ivy pretends to be a "friend of Jim Gordon's" when she picks up Barbara's phone call. Possible foreshadowing of her future as a seductress.

- While Jack Gruber isn't a character in the comics, the promo reveals that he is the Electrocutioner, who kills using electricity. In the comics, the character's name is Lester Buchinsky. Right now, we don't know if Gruber is a precursor to the Buchinsky version or if he simply has a changed name.

- In a similar way, the bald inmate Aaron is actually Aaron Helzinger/Amygdala, the bald childlike inmate prone to homicidal rages, who was featured prominently in the Knightfall series. We'll see how he behaves in the next episode.

Once I saw the use of electricity as a weapon, I thought wouldn't it be funny if it somehow tied into the Electrocutioner? Though I only knew it was supposed to be him after reading your post. He seemed more Hannibal Lector influenced than anything.

I also saw Jack Gruber more as a Dr. Strange villain, specifically when he alters missing convicts into obedient monsters in his second(?) appearance.

A lot of different characters went through my head and it was only after I saw the promo for the next ep that I found out Gruber was Electrocutioner (and a Wikipedia search led me to find out Aaron was Amygdala).

In the opening, I was guessing the actor might be playing Maxie Zeus. Maybe it's 'cause of how he looked like in the play. And then when the electricity stuff came about, I thought maybe they were going the "realistic" route and that was their equivalent to his lightning.

When the mind control came in, I wondered if he was some kind of precursor to Mad Hatter.

I also thought, given his bald appearance, child-like appearance, and the backstory of having killed his family, that "Aaron" was a version of Humpty Dumpty. Maybe I've been watching too much Beware the Batman lately...

I wasn't really thinking about Hugo Strange as I had read an interview with the creator of the show, who hinted at Hugo being part of the Arkham staff (considering what happened to Dr. Lang at the end, I'd say there's an opening in the department...). The actor's performance and appearance, however, would make him a good choice. Hopefully, their real take on Strange is an even more appropriate casting choice.

"What The Little Bird Told Him"

The Electrocutioner's real last name is revealed to be Buchinsky, though his first name is still Jack. This implies that he may be the brother of Lester Buchinsky, since the first Electrocutioner was Lester's unnamed brother.

His henchman's name is revealed to be Aaron Danzig, which casts some doubt on the Amygdala reference.

Commissioner Loeb, while bespectacled and thin rather than overweight, is portrayed as corrupt and there's already no love lost between him and Gordon. A closer interpretation to the source material than the Begins/Dark Knight version.
UPDATE: Loeb's appearance is actually close to the New 52/Zero Year version of the character.

Dash Mihok plays the cop who tells Nygma to stop talking to Kringle. He is credited as Detective Flass. The jury is out on how Gotham will portray him in the series.

Speculation is that, with Fish imprisoned by Falcone, her nightclub could actually be the future Iceberg Lounge.

Wow, all great facts here. It was cool that they actually did have a backstory for Gruber, and revealed for him to be Buchinsky (due to his age, I think it totally fits in that he's Lester's older brother). Knowing that they kept that detail, I have hope that this whole Ivy Pepper thing will be sorted out. I heard a rumor that she'll take on the alias of Pamela Isley later on, but that's just a rumor.

And I wasn't paying attention, but the henchman's surname was explicitly said to be Danzig? Wikipedia still lists him as Aaron Helzinger (still pretty similar).

QuoteKnowing that they kept that detail, I have hope that this whole Ivy Pepper thing will be sorted out. I heard a rumor that she'll take on the alias of Pamela Isley later on, but that's just a rumor.

The show's Gotham Chronicle tie-in has her listed as "Pamela." I'm pretty certain that the show will have Ivy adopted by the Isley family and given the Pamela name there.
http://gothamchronicle.com/post/106575104731/teen-runaway-spotted-at-the-flea-ivy-pepper

QuoteAnd I wasn't paying attention, but the henchman's surname was explicitly said to be Danzig? Wikipedia still lists him as Aaron Helzinger (still pretty similar).

Yes, Essen calls him Aaron Danzig and the episode descriptions list the actor Kevin McCormick as playing "Danzig." One wonders why they didn't just go ahead and say Helzinger. Even DC TV's breakdown of the episode states that Aaron is Amygdala.

The Red Hood is coming:
http://screenrant.com/gotham-tv-red-hood-villain-season-1/?adbid=981563975206926&adbpl=fb&adbpr=693029617393698&cmpid=social_gen_Gotham_20150123_39245257#.VMESXMonZXY
Definitely not Jason Todd, but there's probably some kind of tie-in to the Joker's backstory; the Year Zero and Killing Joke possibilities are laid down. Being season one still, it's too early to be the Joker Red Hood. I'm betting it's going to just be various thugs donning the title like in the Killing Joke.

"Welcome Back, Jim Gordon"

As I predicted, Flass stays true to his comic counterpart in being a major corrupt cop who's protected by the mob and Commissioner Loeb. No Green Beret background mentioned yet, but a good start, though I'm not sure how much more we'll see of him now that he's been arrested.

Obviously the elements of Gordon having a corrupt partner who shows him the ropes in Gotham were given to Bullock's character, so they had to do something different with this version of Flass.

Penguin claiming Fish's club continues to fuel speculation that this will be his Iceberg Lounge. Notice how Fish's entrance cut him off from announcing the name?

Fun fact: Fish's torturer, Bob, was played by Michael Eklund, who also played the Barton Mathis version of the Dollmaker in Arrow. Eklund actually teased that he would be appearing on the show, prompting speculation that he would appear as the Dollmaker once more since he was teased in Gotham's ep 2, but thankfully it turned out to be a different role (as, if they were to connect the two shows, I'd prefer Bruce to be the same age as Oliver and not a kid while Arrow is going on). Colm Feore is confirmed to play the Gotham version of Dollmaker, who won't be the Barton Mathis version.

Alfred chauffeuring Bruce around Gotham looking for Selina? Hmmm...

"The Fearsome Dr. Crane"

The idea of Jonathan Crane's father being a precursor to the Scarecrow and conducting experiments comes from the New 52 comics, though in that, Jonathan himself was the test subject. (Next week's episode may reveal more)

In the comics, Jonathan's father is named Gerald. IMDB lists the actor as playing Gerald Crane, since the name "Todd" was clearly an alias in this episode.
Update: Hollywood Reporter confirms that the character's name is Gerald:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/gotham-scarecrow-gerald-crane-explainer-768594

Related to last week's fun fact, Julian Sands played another father to a famous comic book character in Smallville, when he played Jor-El.

Tumblr posted this possible parallel, which may just be coincidental, in Maroni saying that he's "quick for a big guy," considering what he's destined to do to Harvey Dent.
http://lego-joker.tumblr.com/post/110009387751/if***inglovebatman-ill-say-could-we-hope-that

"The Scarecrow"

Like in the New 52 comics, Gerald uses his son Jonathan for experiments in the wake of his mother's death. Gerald ends up dying, leaving his son with the trauma. In the comic, however, Gerald died of natural causes and wasn't killed in a firefight with the cops.

The name of Jonathan's mother/Gerald's wife is Karen, which is true to the comics (i.e. Scarecrow Year One stated that her maiden name was Karen Kinney).
https://comicbookbaddies.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/the-complete-origin-of-the-scarecrow/

Oswald opens his club as Oswald's. Again, this seems to be a precursor to the Iceberg Lounge.

I can't be the only one disappointed that Bruce didn't find the cave during his excursion, especially with fear being a theme of this episode.

"The Blind Fortune Teller"

Not much to report here.

John Grayson and Mary Lloyd are obviously the future parents of Dick Grayson.

Surprisingly, the episode focused far less on the Graysons and more on Jerome, who was meant to be a potential future Joker. Here, he murders his promiscuous mother.

In The Brave and the Bold #31, the Atom unlocks the Joker's memories. There, he sees the Joker overhearing his parents argue about him (with his father even accusing his mother of adultery and that the child isn't even his). The young Joker eventually burns down his childhood home, murdering his parents. So the idea of a young pre-Joker character murdering his seemingly promiscuous mother is rooted in this comic, though the connection to Gotham's version is somewhat loose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2_HAwRIACw

The origins of the Red Hood gang. Obviously, no yet featuring the man who becomes the Joker. Though we do get an allusion to the Joker in that clip... throwing money out in the street? Hmmm
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.tinypic.com%2F2urber5.jpg&hash=11b3e963a52851dc54480dfe8512a505657e33c6)

"The Red Hood"

The idea of the Red Hood passing along from person to person is right out of the comics. Not only did the mask get worn by multiple men/red herrings in the original story "The Man Behind the Red Hood," but The Killing Joke expressly showed that the hood passed down from gang member to gang member.

The bank robberies from the Red Hood's men could potentially be a reference to the New 52's Batman #0, which opens with the Red Hood robbing a bank.

The headline on the newspaper calls the criminal "Robin Red Hood," which is a nice tie-in to the fact that former Robin Jason Todd eventually dons the Red Hood moniker.

The mysterious offscreen doctor Dr. Dulmacher is, in fact, the Dollmaker, as confirmed in the trades.

Easter Egg: When Ivy looks over Barbara's clothes, she only seems interested in the green clothes. Obvious reference to her future getup.

Fun fact: The "Manager" who works with Dr. Dulmacher is played by Jeffrey Combs, who did the voice of the Scarecrow in the redesigned BTAS/Gotham Knights series.

"Everyone Has a Cobblepot"

Loeb's blackmailing MO may have been inspired by how he blackmailed Gordon in Year One to make him fall in line.

The episode confirms that Loeb is in Falcone's pocket, much like in Year One.

The show's version of the Dollmaker is based on the New 52 Barton Mathis version, since he is a surgeon who deals in body parts.

"Beasts of Prey"

Not a lot of strong connections here.

The villain's name is the Ogre. The show version, however, is completely different from the ones in the comics.

QuoteThe first Ogre is part of a genetic experiment (with a brother known as Ape).  The Ogre was given brute strength in an attempt to create a perfect human soldier for a, wait for it, top secret government agency.  Of course, things did not work out either Ape or Ogre.

A second O.G.R.E. that makes a DC Comics appearance is a robotic suit of armor which is possessed by the mind of its dead pilot.  Its rampage is stopped by Batman.

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/04/13/the-dctv-secrets-of-gotham-episode-19-beasts-of-prey

The victim, Grace, had the last name Fairchild. A famous Fairchild in the comics is Vesper Fairchild, who was later killed by David Cain, who then framed Bruce Wayne for her murder in Bruce Wayne: Murderer.

Bruce visits the Polk gun range. DC's blog claims that this is a reference to William Polk, the Wyoming Kid:
http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/04/13/the-dctv-secrets-of-gotham-episode-19-beasts-of-prey

We got our first "Batman" interrogation with Bruce interrogating Reggie. And we also got Selina proving that she doesn't have an issue with killing. We've seen this in Batman Returns and the Dark Knight Rises when she took out Schreck and Bane, respectively, but we've also seen it in the comics when she killed the Roman Sionis Black Mask.

"Under The Knife"

Gordon mentions Judge Harkness. The judge was the one who tried Two-Face in Dark Victory and was also in Arkham Origins as a victim.

"The Anvil and the Hammer"

Not so much on comic book influences this week, mainly influences from other adaptations.

Lucius Fox is a comic book character, but the backstory of him having known Bruce's father and being a father figure to Bruce is something that Nolan brought to the table in the Dark Knight Trilogy.

The idea of Wayne Enterprises being the villains, and possibly endangering Bruce & Alfred's life, was slightly explored in Batman Begins as well, but was more blatant in the unproduced Bruce Wayne pilot from years ago, with a character named Charles Palantine serving as the Wayne Enterprises before Nolan's Mr. Earle and this show's Bunderslaw.

"All Happy Families Are Alike"

Obviously, some creative liberties were taken tonight as Maroni was killed by Fish (presumably his son or nephew will be the Maroni who turns Dent into Two-Face?), Falcone retired from organized crime, and Barbara Kean was revealed to have killed her parents and nearly killed Leslie Thompkins. It's unlike that Maroni will be resurrected, Falcone will want to return as boss, or Barbara will be the future Mrs. Gordon or mother to James Jr. and Barbara/Batgirl.

The ending points to Bruce discovering the Bat Cave. What Thomas Wayne was doing down there remains to be seen...

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue,  5 May  2015, 09:02
"All Happy Families Are Alike"

Obviously, some creative liberties were taken tonight as Maroni was killed by Fish (presumably his son or nephew will be the Maroni who turns Dent into Two-Face?), Falcone retired from organized crime, and Barbara Kean was revealed to have killed her parents and nearly killed Leslie Thompkins. It's unlike that Maroni will be resurrected, Falcone will want to return as boss, or Barbara will be the future Mrs. Gordon or mother to James Jr. and Barbara/Batgirl.

The ending points to Bruce discovering the Bat Cave. What Thomas Wayne was doing down there remains to be seen...

I like this series, but I'm a bit annoyed by these liberties.  I thought the whole point of "Gotham" was to introduce us to these characters before they became the heroes and villains we know from the comic-books.  So why take such radical departures in terms of their narratives?

Plus Maroni was one of my favourite characters.  David Zayas gave such a fun, charismatic performance in the part.  It seems pointless to waste him, and even worse to retire Falcone, especially as we haven't seen or heard anything about his family, including Mario, Sofia and Alberto.

Right. I find it odd that Batman Forever's the only adaptation to use Maroni the way he was meant to be used. There's really no point in having him if he's NOT the guy to scar Dent, which he didn't do in The Dark Knight and he obviously won't be the one doing it in Gotham's continuity.

If Falcone's not going to be the mob boss when Bruce becomes Batman, Maroni's not going to scar Dent to become Two-Face, Leslie Thompkins doesn't have a connection to young Bruce, Sarah Essen's not having a relationship with Gordon, and Barbara Kean's not going to be Gordon's future wife (are we supposed to believe he'll name the future Batgirl after her now)...then what's the point of them having these names?

It would've made more sense to have Vincent Falcone and Luigi Maroni as the warring fathers with Carmine and Sal working in the background or overseas (to rise up and take their fathers' places later), Sarah Essen as the GCPD love interest instead of Leslie (change her to a cop instead of the medical examiner), and Barbara as an original character with a different name, held off until a later season to be Gordon's future wife, or taken out of the show entirely.

It seemed like Fish's new look was inspired by the Mutant Gang from the Dark Knight Returns.

Also, I'm kinda mixed when it comes to changing the fates of characters that are important to Batman lore. On the positive end, it leaves us wondering; no longer are we assured of a character's survival because of later Batman stories. But on the other hand, it deprives us of these characters for when they actually come into prominence. It seems they just wanted to start with some big names in the Batman universe. I would say make new characters... but there already are characters that would be better suited for for the position. What about Grissom, Stromwell, or Rupert Thorne? There's no shortage of memorable crime bosses in Batman lore.

Aaaand we're back for Season 2

"Damned If You Do..."

- Catwoman & Penguin team up here. We've, of course, seen this in the 1966 movie as well as Batman Returns. Not a comic book influence, but the Burton films do feel like they've influenced the show in its visuals. Just look at how Penguin and Zsasz were dressed in the episode.

- Loeb is forced to resign due to Penguin doing a favor for Jim Gordon. In Year One, Loeb resigned at the end after Flass testified against him. In both versions, Gordon played a small role in taking him down.

- Essen gets promoted to Commissioner. This also happened in the comics, but when Jim Gordon was being forced out of the role and created conflict 'cause Essen and Gordon were a couple at the time.

- Richard Sionis's death indicates that he is NOT the future Black Mask, as speculated. Roman Sionis is presumably his son or relative. In the comics, Roman's father was a bad influence over his life and led to Roman killing him and his mother.

Theo Galavan has been teased as a future DC villain. While his role isn't clear, his sister Tabitha was clearly announced to be a version of Tigress. Tigress, however, has never had the name Tabitha Galavan. The Tigress name may be the only connection to this comic book character. But we'll see.

"Knock Knock"
If Jerome really is the Joker, this episode showed the evolution of his theatricality and his ambition to become more than just "a guy who chopped up his mommy."

The big thug (whom Barbara flirted and recruited as her friend last episode) is revealed to be named Aaron Helzinger. This is the name of Amygdala in the comics. We originally thought that the Electrocutioner's sidekick Aaron Danzig was the character. (Though one wonders why this character couldn't have been the same one with the same actor and be the Amygdala for the show).

Much like Batman #1 (which in turn inspired The Dark Knight), Jerome (assuming that he's Joker) dresses up in disguise in a police uniform and kills the boss. Jerome's smile under the police hat feels like a shot out of that comic.

On a similar note, Jerome also seems to adopt Joker's mannerisms and penchant for broadcasting video messages and shooting his own people.

Jerome murders Sarah Essen. In the comics, Joker did the same to Essen, though in the comics, Sarah was Gordon's wife and Bruce was already Batman.

"The Last Laugh"

- Leslie Thompkins meets Alfred for the first time. Alfred's attraction to her is an indication of their future romance in the comics.

- Leslie Thompkins's involvement in the charity event ties into the character's comic history in being involved in charities.

- Jerome disguises himself as a magician, which ties into the Joker's penchant for disguises. On the other hand, Jerome's death indicates that he was a red herring and another character will become the Joker in the future.

"Strike Force"

Silver St. Cloud is introduced in this episode as Theo Galavan's ward/niece (the daughter of his late stepbrother). Bruce has an obvious attraction to her and the two are set to be schoolmates. In the comics, Silver and Bruce met as adults at a party before Bruce had to take off as Batman to fight Dr. Phosphorus. Silver's hair is blonde in the show, but in the comics it's actually silver, like her name.

Edward's address (as written on the paper he gave to Ms Kringle) is on Grundy street, a potential reference to Solomon Grundy.

According to Gotham Wiki, the recruit Josie Mac is actually a character from the comics:

QuoteJosephine MacDonald, also known as "Josie Mac", was created by Judd Winick and Cliff Chiang and first appeared in Detective Comics #763 (December, 2001). Like on the show, in the comics she is a member of Gotham City Police Department.

http://gotham.wikia.com/wiki/Josie_Mac

"Scarification"

The show does its own version of Firefly's origins, having her as the reluctant half-sister of a gang of arsonists, who takes on her own costume/persona and comes to enjoy the pyrotechnics. This does not match with any version of Firefly in the comics.

Firefly's brothers are dubbed the "Firebugs." Firebug is also an arsonist in the Batman universe named Joe Rigger. One of Bridget's brothers is also named Joe (Pike).

The "five families" of Gotham and their history is revealed, with some changes. In the Gates of Gotham comics, they were the Kanes, the Elliots, the Crownes, the Cobblepots, and the Waynes. In the show, they were  the Dumas, the Kanes, the Elliots, the Crownes, and the Waynes.  (Not just to tie Galavan's background into the Waynes but also likely because the show has hinted that "Cobblepot" is Oswald's Anglicized version of his mom's European last name, Kapelput).

Obviously, the Kanes were the descendants of Martha Wayne (whose maiden name was Kane). The Elliots were the descendants of future Hush Tommy Elliot, whom we met last season.

The Crownes are from the Court of Owls comics and it seems that the story of Dumas was inspired by it. In the show, a Wayne girl and a Dumas boy had a forbidden romance that led to the disgrace of the Dumas family. In the comics, the forbidden romance was between Amelia Crowne and William Cobb, whose son was dubbed "Gray son" or Grayson, leading into the Grayson family, whom we met last season as well. It's possible then that the show will bring in the Court of Owls, given this connection.

The Dumas, of course, are the show's leeway/introduction into the Order of St. Dumas, known for producing Azrael as the angel of vengeance. In the comics, the order was dated back to the Crusades, started by a man named Dumas who had a falling out with the rest of the Knights Templar. The final scene hints that the Order is on its way to Gotham, with its "warriors"- an obvious reference to Azrael.

"By Fire"

Bridget grew to become more enamored with setting things on fire, including her own half-brothers, making her closer to the Firefly of the comics. Her survival at the end seems to indicate that she may return. It's unknown whether she will turn into Garfield Lynns or if the show will just continue to use her as the Firefly character.

Bridget at the end is taken into Indian Hill where the presumed dead are experimented on. Based on the scene and comments made by Ben McKenzie, this may be the show's version of Hugo Strange creating the Monster Men. Time will tell.

"Mommy's Little Monster"

Tabitha Galavan murders Oswald's mother. In the comics, it was the death of Oswald's mom (through natural causes) as well as the loss of the family pet shop that led to him becoming the Penguin.

Silver St. Cloud is revealed to have full knowledge of her uncle's plans and is a willing part of them. This is the opposite of the comic book version of Silver, who was an innocent civilian.

Penguin's camouflage in the Election Day Massacre is similar to how he dressed GCPD cops as himself in order to fool Petit in No Man's Land.

Not a comic influence, but seemingly an inspiration from a different show. The ordeal with Butch's hand was very similar to T-Bag from Prison Break. He also got his left hand brutally cut off onscreen, but the scene of Butch's escape from the last episode was pretty much lifted from an episode of Prison Break. Especially the cutaway to the hand left behind after they escape.

We had our last episode end with a confrontation atop a cathedral. No need to elaborate with that one. Barbara even falls down

"Tonight's the Night"

Galavan claims to know the identity of the man who killed Bruce's parents. Perhaps he played a role in what happened? Either way, Galavan's destruction of the "file" on the killer is appropriately symbolic of how young Bruce never found out the identity of his parents' killer.

Bruce also clearly states a desire to murder the man who killed his parents, which is what he succeeded in doing in the Burton film, what he intended to do in Batman Begins, Year Two, and the New 52.

"A Bitter Pill to Swallow"

Funny enough, Bruce's turtleneck in the beginning reminded me of the one that Keaton, Kilmer, and Clooney all wore as Bruce Wayne.

Ed's green sweater is also an obvious instance of costume foreshadowing.

Eduardo Flamingo is a character created by Grant Morrison, who had a tendency to eat the faces of his victims. The Gotham version lacked the pink costume, but stayed somewhat true to the M.O. and dyed part of the actor's hair pink (and kept the facial hair). While he doesn't have the whip (possibly because that is Tigress's weapon of choice in the show), he does use a long chain.

Oswald's insight into his past implies that he was bullied as a child for his looks, just like in his comic book origin.

"The Son of Gotham"

Silver gives out the name "M. Malone" as the man who killed Bruce Wayne's parents. This is an obvious reference to Matches Malone, the criminal disguise that Bruce adopts. In the comics, Matches is a real criminal who ends up accidentally killing himself and Bruce takes on his persona as a disguise in the fight against Ra's Al Ghul. Here, Silver claims that she made up the name, but her fear over what she divulged indicates that there's some truth to it.

Some liberties were obviously being taken in the show since this episode cements that Bruce probably would never grow up to have the romantic relationship with Silver St. Cloud in the comics, given her deceptive nature in this episode.

The Order of St. Dumas has trained monks who can withstand pain and Galavan himself reveals that he has special fight training. This could be the show's version of "The System," which is the special training that turns Azraels into killing machines.

The Order also performs a vigilante-type task in killing off the mugger in the opening. Jean-Paul Valley would adopt similar tactics when he takes on the Batman mantle in the Knightfall storyline.

"Worse than a Crime"

Bruce says that his favorite animals are owls. A potential reference to the Court of Owls? In that storyline, young Bruce shortly tried to investigate the existence of the court after his parents' deaths.

Leslie's pregnancy could indicate that she's the mother of Barbara Jr./Batgirl or James Jr. Given the ages of the characters in the comic book canon, Barbara Jr. would have been born around the time that Bruce was a kid, whereas James Jr. was born during Batman's first year.

Victor Fries seems to already have become Mr. Freeze in this continuity and is using his freeze gun to kill people. This version may tie in more closely to the Paul Dini origin of the character, since casting news revealed that an actress will be playing Nora Fries.

This is a great thread, BatmAngelus. I'm not a fan of Gotham and never made it past the first few episodes, but I'm still curious to know how they're handling the source material. This ongoing analysis is a great resource for the one aspect of the series I'm actually interested in: namely how it relates to the comics.

The fact they're referencing so many characters, particularly villains, from the source material just reinforces what many of us have been saying for years about the viability of a Batman TV show. I just wish they'd approached it as a proper Year One type of affair instead of taking the Smallville route. Particularly if characters like Mr Freeze are being portrayed as more or less fully formed.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 26 Feb  2016, 19:14
This is a great thread, BatmAngelus. I'm not a fan of Gotham and never made it past the first few episodes, but I'm still curious to know how they're handling the source material. This ongoing analysis is a great resource for the one aspect of the series I'm actually interested in: namely how it relates to the comics.

The fact they're referencing so many characters, particularly villains, from the source material just reinforces what many of us have been saying for years about the viability of a Batman TV show. I just wish they'd approached it as a proper Year One type of affair instead of taking the Smallville route. Particularly if characters like Mr Freeze are being portrayed as more or less fully formed.

It's a shame that Mr Freeze is going to be presented as a fully-formed villain.  If any character demands a slow-burn portrayal, it's Victor Fries and his tragic descent from esteemed, philanthropic scientist with a loving marriage to insane, misanthropic villain.

That said, I must admit I enjoy "Gotham" for what it is.  Every time I read the synopses for the show I sigh with despair (the UK, where I live in several months behind the show in the US), and yet the actual show is surprisingly entertaining and compelling.  My only issue at all is the unnecessarily graphic violence.  The actual acts of violence on the show are no nastier than the stuff that occurs in Burton and Nolan's Batman films, but they're shot in a much more graphic and gory way which can be off-putting at times.

And we're back

"Mr. Freeze"

Oswald deliberately lands himself in Arkham Asylum to avoid jail. The Penguin in the comics has been an inmate of Arkham before.

It's implied that Victor Fries used to work for Wayne Enterprises. In the New 52, Victor also used to work for the company before becoming Mr. Freeze. Much like in the Paul Dini origin, Fries is out to save his ill wife, Nora.

Hugo Strange is the head of psychiatry at Arkham Asylum. Contrary to popular belief, Strange never had this role in the comics. Strange went in disguise to treat Jonathan Crane there in the Terror arc as well as took inmates from Arkham to experiment in Matt Wagner's update of the Monster Men. But it was The Batman cartoon where he was shown to be in charge of it. Arkham City ran with a similar idea in having him run the facility.

Excluding fan films, isn't this the first time Hugo Strange has appeared in live action? If so, that's pretty crazy. Besides Doctor Death and the Monk, Strange was the first classic villain Batman ever faced. He's been around since 1940, predating even the Joker, and they're only just now adapting him in live action for the first time.

Indeed.

I think it's also kinda ironic that some people thought they should've cast an Asian actor to play Marvel's Dr. Strange instead of Benedict Cumberbatch and then Gotham turns around and casts an Asian actor for a very different Dr. Strange...

"A Dead Man Feels No Cold"

Ace Chemicals is heavily featured in the opening. Here, it's the source for the chemicals in Dr. Fries's freeze gun. In the comics, it'll be known as the birth place of the Joker.

It's shown that Ace is a division of Wayne Enterprises. I believe the New 52 established this connection, connecting Kane Chemicals (Martha's family's company) with Apex Chemicals (which is from Detective Comics #27) and Ace Chemicals into one company.

Leslie Thompkins finally visits Wayne Manor to help Bruce examine his feelings. In the comics, Leslie is mainly known for having comforted young Bruce after his parents' deaths and being a maternal figure for him.

During his session with Dr. Thompkins, Bruce shares his feelings that he can be "two things at once" and is already starting to develop the idea that he will have to carry out his mission for vengeance in secret.

Hugo Strange's lab coat in the beginning makes him look like a dead ringer for the Arkham City Hugo Strange.

Alfred reveals that, despite Silver's claim of making it up, "M. Malone" is a real person- Patrick "Matches" Malone. This will become Bruce's disguise in the criminal underworld years later. It's unknown at this point why the series decided to go with Matches Malone rather than Joe Chill.

Victor Fries's suit, when storming Arkham, is much closer to the Mr. Freeze refrigerated costume.

Nora has Victor retrieve her necklace for her to wear before he freezes her. In the Arkham games and Batman & Robin, Nora Fries also had a necklace in frozen form.

While Nora in many versions is still alive and kept in a tank of water, this Nora commits suicide by switching the cartridges in Victor's gun so that she'll die when he freezes her.

In the comics, Victor became Mr. Freeze through a lab accident. In the show, it's due to freezing himself in his suit, in a suicide attempt after Nora dies.

Victor Fries wakes up at the end with white hair. While most versions of Mr. Freeze are bald, the white hair evokes the Eli Wallach version of Mr. Freeze from the 1960s show. (George Sanders also had hair, but it was his natural grey).

Thank you again for these BatmAngelus.  I really appreciate the time and effort you put into these comprehensive analyses of the on-the-page and on-screen precursors to "Gotham".  I wish I could contribute but unfortunately the UK is quite a few episodes behind the US.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue,  8 Mar  2016, 19:57I think it's also kinda ironic that some people thought they should've cast an Asian actor to play Marvel's Dr. Strange instead of Benedict Cumberbatch and then Gotham turns around and casts an Asian actor for a very different Dr. Strange...

Were people really clamouring for an Asian Doctor Strange? I saw a lot of people saying Iron Fist should be Asian, and I kind of get the logic behind that. But Stephen Strange himself... I'm not sure I could see that working, since I generally think of Strange as looking and sounding like Vincent Price. But an Asian Hugo Strange seems legit. From the pictures I've seen, B D Wong sure looks like the Strange from the comics.


How's the depiction of Leslie Thompkins? I've always thought she was one of the most underrated characters in the mythos, but I find it difficult to imagine Morena Baccarin in the role. I know Denny O'Neil voiced concerns over the portrayal of the character when they announced she was set to appear. Have they done her justice?

One other question - are there any Batman villains who've appeared in both Gotham and Arrow, and if so which series handled them more faithfully?

There are some people who believe that Ditko intended Strange to be Asian. For example:
http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?14281-Was-Ditko-s-Dr-Strange-originally-Asian

Gotham's Leslie Thompkins is pretty far from the comics. She hasn't had much interaction with Bruce Wayne and Alfred until "The Last Laugh" episode and this past episode. And obviously Morena Baccarin is a far cry from the little old lady that Dennis O'Neil originally created.

She's more like Barbara Gordon (Sr.)- Gordon's (currently pregnant) civilian love interest, who worries about how the job's consuming him- with a bit of Sarah Essen since she works at the GCPD too (in this case, Leslie is their medical examiner).

Since she's currently pregnant, I suspect she'll be the mother of future Jim Jr. and future Batgirl, Barbara Gordon (however, the show's Barbara Gordon Sr. is a homicidal maniac who nearly killed Jim and Leslie so unless Barbara Sr. heavily redeems herself, I don't know why this version of Jim and Leslie would name their daughter after her). The show version of Sarah Essen is also dead, so this mainly leaves Leslie as the mother of Jim's future children, unless they introduce an original character soon.

There have been two Rogues who've been shared in Gotham and Arrow so far: The Dollmaker and Firefly.

For faithfulness, I'd say the shows are 50/50- Arrow gets their identities right, but Gotham captures their M.O.s more accurately.

The Dollmaker appeared in Arrow Season 2, played by Michael Eklund (who funny enough appeared in Gotham later as a different character). He was given the identity of the New 52 Dollmaker, Barton Mathis. While Mathis in the comics had a vendetta against Jim Gordon for killing his father, this Mathis had a vendetta against the show's Gordon counterpart, Detective Quentin Lance, for capturing him, and attempted to kill Quentin's daughter, Laurel (future Black Canary), in revenge.

He was given a different M.O., however. While Mathis in the comics takes different body parts and stitches them together into dolls, this Dollmaker was more audience-friendly and got his nickname from the way he displayed his victims, like dolls. At the end of the episode, "Broken Dolls," he was killed by Quentin's other daughter, Sara Lance, aka The Canary/future White Canary, after she and Oliver saved Laurel.

The Dollmaker appeared again in Gotham Season 1 a year later, played by Colm Feore. This Dollmaker was given the original name Francis Dulmacher and instead of a known serial killer, he was a doctor on an island, dealing in the organ trade and imprisoning people there. Like the Barton Mathis Dollmaker, however, he would take different people's bodyparts and stitch them together, including putting his office manager's head on the body of a woman and giving Fish Mooney her new eye. He was later wounded when Fish Mooney escaped his facility in Season 1 and hasn't been seen since.

(The Dollmaker is technically on Supergirl too- the character of Winn Schott (Jr) on there is the son of the Toyman, Winslow Schott. In the comics, Toyman's son, Anton, becomes the Dollmaker, too. Winn has yet to become a supervillain, however, and is basically a supporting character on Supergirl's team).

As for Firefly, he first appeared in Arrow Season 1, played by Andrew Dunbar. Like in the comics, his name was Garfield Lynns. But that's about it. In the show, he was a firefighter who was horribly burned in a fire and felt like his cohorts left him for dead. He returns, in his firefighter outfit, and burns his ex-colleagues to death until Oliver finds him and stops him. Seeing his life without purpose, Lynns steps into one of his fires and commits suicide. In Arrow, the team of firefighters were given the nickname "Firefly" and each had a tattoo of a firefly on their hands.

Two years later, there was a very different Firefly in Gotham Season 2- Bridget Pike, played by Michelle Veintimilla. This female Firefly was the young half-sister of the arsonist Pike brothers. After one of the brothers is killed, they use Bridget on a job since she's the only one small enough to crawl through the vents and set off one of their explosions. She fashions the full Firefly outfit and arsonist gun from the comics and ends up growing obsessed with fire. She burns her brothers to death after they threaten her and tries to go after human traffickers and pimps who abuse the little people, like her. In a police standoff, Bridget gets lit on fire due to an accident from her gun and is believed dead. It's revealed later, however, that Bridget survived, with burns all over her body, and is currently at the Indian Hill facility under Hugo Strange's care.

Both versions have Firefly's burns as part of the origin, even though in the comics, Firefly got burns over his body much later in his criminal career. Both versions also do not use the pyrotechnic/special effects expert origin and opt to do their own takes instead.

Personally, I'd say Arrow had the better Dollmaker while Gotham had a way better Firefly. It's interesting that Gotham changed their identities after Arrow and makes me wonder if this was a studio mandate to "not confuse the audiences." Recently, a couple characters on Arrow were killed off and seemed to be making room for their appearances in Suicide Squad in August.

I figured Baccarin's Thompkins would be a perfunctory take on the character. It's a shame. I don't mind them depicting her younger, since this is a prequel, but she's got a rich characterisation in the comics that's never been capitalised on in a live action medium. O'Neil's said he originally modelled her on liberal activist Dorothy Day (who he apparently met) and that she was meant to be a sort of surrogate mother to Bruce, nurturing his charitable nature and informing his moral outlook. We've already seen how other characters helped define the crime fighting side of his personality; it would've been interesting to see how Thompkins influenced his humanitarian side. But if she's just an in-name-only love interest for Gordon, then it sounds like another wasted opportunity.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed,  9 Mar  2016, 18:26Since she's currently pregnant, I suspect she'll be the mother of future Jim Jr. and future Batgirl, Barbara Gordon (however, the show's Barbara Gordon Sr. is a homicidal maniac who nearly killed Jim and Leslie so unless Barbara Sr. heavily redeems herself, I don't know why this version of Jim and Leslie would name their daughter after her).

??? I watched a few early episodes of Gotham when it first started, and I remember thinking Babs was a phenomenally unlikeable character. But I didn't think they'd take it that far. And Sarah's dead? Wow. And they're only on season 2?

Regarding those villains, it doesn't sound like either show's really done them complete justice. But it's interesting to hear how they each focussed on different aspects of the character, as if they were deliberately trying to avoid covering the same ground. As a comic fan who doesn't watch either of these shows, I really appreciate your write-ups on this subject. I'm keen to see the Arrow analysis when it's done.

Leslie had her first sit-down with Bruce in the last episode, so it's possible that they are just beginning her journey of becoming a surrogate mother to Bruce.

Still, it feels as if the show originally wanted to go traditional with Jim and Barbara as a couple. When the character wasn't working out that way, there was a creative overhaul.

A few episodes in the season, Mekia Cox played an unnamed doctor who helped patch up a wounded Gordon in one scene and was friends with Montoya and Allen. In the original press release, Cox was listed as a guest actress playing Leslie Thompkins.

Whatever scene that identified her as Leslie was cut, however, and Morena Baccarin was cast mid-season as a young Leslie working at Arkham instead.

I have a feeling they wanted to give Gordon a different love interest at that point and wanted to use someone in the comics too, so they made it Leslie and brought in a more popular actress to play her, while cutting the scene that identified Cox's character as Leslie.

As the season progressed, Leslie became the new girlfriend and Barbara turned homicidal, nearly killing Leslie in the finale and landing in Arkham.

Granted, it makes this Barbara Kean way more interesting (and potentially sets up what happens to Jim Jr. in the Black Mirror), but it also makes a mess out of Gordon's future so it's incredibly unlikely that he will get back together with her and have children with her, nor is it likely that Gordon would name his daughter after her.

I will say that the show feels like it's making an effort to line itself closer to the comics, with Leslie now becoming part of Bruce's life, Mr. Freeze's origin being represented rather faithfully, and B.D. Wong's Hugo Strange as probably the most faithful take on a Batman character in the show. His Strange so far has been perfect:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7ruj5BY9UM

Perhaps there's hope for the Thompkins-Bruce relationship after all. With any luck they'll continue exploring it in future episodes. The Gordon/Thompkins romance sounds like a pretty massive departure though. I've come to expect a certain degree of soap opera content from DC's TV output, but going by the comics, wouldn't it be more fitting for Leslie to have a relationship with Alfred?

I'm probably being unreasonable expecting the show to stick too closely to the comics. As you say, it can be more interesting to put their own spin on things. And there's not much point in retelling the same stories if they don't throw some variety into the mix.

That said, I feel frustrated by the fact we've never had a faithful serious live action Batman TV series. We had a brilliant and faithful light-hearted series in the sixties, and we had a great serious animated series in the nineties. But no great serious live action show. Gotham could have been that show, but so far it isn't.

However the depiction of Hugo Strange looks like a step in the right direction. If the series continues evolving in that way, bringing itself more in line with the classic mythology, then I might give it another shot further down the road.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 10 Mar  2016, 19:12
Perhaps there's hope for the Thompkins-Bruce relationship after all. With any luck they'll continue exploring it in future episodes. The Gordon/Thompkins romance sounds like a pretty massive departure though. I've come to expect a certain degree of soap opera content from DC's TV output, but going by the comics, wouldn't it be more fitting for Leslie to have a relationship with Alfred?

I have my own suspicions about this. In a previous episode, when Leslie met Bruce, she also met Alfred, who flirted with her and attempted to ask her out before discovering that she was already with Gordon.

But now, Leslie and Gordon are having conflicts in their relationship, with it looking likely that Leslie will call it quits soon...and she's just starting to visit Wayne Manor these days...

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 11 Mar  2016, 01:12I have my own suspicions about this. In a previous episode, when Leslie met Bruce, she also met Alfred, who flirted with her and attempted to ask her out before discovering that she was already with Gordon.

But now, Leslie and Gordon are having conflicts in their relationship, with it looking likely that Leslie will call it quits soon...and she's just starting to visit Wayne Manor these days...

I would prefer that. I liked that scene with Alfred quite a bit. And I have found the changes like Barbara being made crazy obnoxious and pandering. I would like to see it revealed that Barbara didn't kill her parents and she just thinks she did because seeing the Ogre kill them made her crazy. I suspect this because Barbara's story of killing them doesn't match how they were found by Jim. But that could just be because the writers rushed that and messed it up due to them trying to appease the character's dislikers. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Quote from: Dagenspear on Fri, 11 Mar  2016, 02:48I would prefer that. I liked that scene with Alfred quite a bit. And I have found the changes like Barbara being made crazy obnoxious and pandering. I would like to see it revealed that Barbara didn't kill her parents and she just thinks she did because seeing the Ogre kill them made her crazy. I suspect this because Barbara's story of killing them doesn't match how they were found by Jim. But that could just be because the writers rushed that and messed it up due to them trying to appease the character's dislikers. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Even is Barbara didn't kill her parents, and to me it seems she did, I don't see how she can ever become 'normal' again and settle down with Jim.  She aligned herself with Galivant and other murderers, and tried to off Bruce and Lesley.  She's clearly damaged.  The fact that she would even suggest to The Ogre that she wanted her nice, normal, albeit a little cold, parents killed to begin with shows she's not quite compos mentis.

At this point, the only way I see Jim naming his daughter Barbara is if this Barbara redeems herself and takes a bullet for a pregnant Leslie by the end of the season. It feels lame, I know, but I don't know how you get around this unless they do the "Barbara Jr. is his niece" route and just don't explain why she shares the name as his homicidal ex-fiancee.

I just read the news item: "Congratulations to Gotham stars Ben McKenzie and Morena Baccarin on the birth of their baby girl."

So the child Lesley has been carrying is Morena Baccarin and Ben McKenzie's real-life daughter.  ;D  Talk about Method Acting.

"This Ball of Mud and Madness"

Hugo Strange uses Gerald Crane's fear toxin for his experiments on Penguin. This could be a reference to the fact that Strange was the original creator of a fear gas in the comics before the Scarecrow.

Strange's therapy of Cobblepot is reminiscent of how he treated Scarecrow in the story Terror, though in reverse. While Strange in that story was trying to get Crane to become Scarecrow again, Hugo is trying to get Oswald to curb his violent tendencies.

Alfred gets information on Matches Malone from the Mutant gang. The Mutants seem to be a precursor to the ones in The Dark Knight Returns.

When fighting the Mutant gang chant "Solomon Grundy"- another reference to the character that seems to keep popping up. Perhaps it's a reference to the future resurrection of certain characters?

The character of Jeri is clearly meant to be a female prototype Joker, with her clown-like makeup, harlequin-type clothes and her reaction to Bruce pulling a gun on her. Her interrogation scene is reminiscent of the one with Joker in The Dark Knight, in which she asks "What time is it?" as a condition for the information she'll give, much like Ledger's Joker in the film.

The confrontation with Matches Malone shares similarities with the various confrontations with Joe Chill. Bruce originally offers to hire Matches, a possible reference to Year Two where Batman and Chill teamed up. Then, much like the original Batman #47, Bruce reveals himself to be the son of the people Matches murdered. Like in The Dark Knight #0, Bruce finds that his original expectation of the killer turns out to be wrong and the real man is more of a pathetic has-been, who doesn't give him an answer on whether or not he was hired to kill the Waynes. When Bruce refuses to kill him, Matches takes his gun and shoots himself, much like Joe Chill did in Joe Chill in Hell.

In the comics, the real Matches Malone accidentally killed himself when he fired on Batman and it richocheted and hit him instead. The comic book Matches also got his nickname for always having a match on him, as well as had a reputation for being a diplomat, which is why Batman tried to recruit him in the war against Ra's Al Ghul. In the TV show, Matches is a hitman whose nickname comes from burning a man to death.

Much like in Batman Begins and Dark Knight #0, this confrontation with his parents' killer causes him to develop his code against killing as well as leave Wayne Manor to begin his education/training into becoming a vigilante.

Edward Nygma's monologuing as he watches Gordon is reminiscent of Jim Carrey's Nygma talking as he watched Bruce Wayne walk away in Batman Forever.

As a side note, I really wish they had just named Matches Malone with "Joe Chill." Michael Bowen gave a great performance for his one scene and I see no reason why they had it be the man who'll influence his future persona.

"Mad Grey Dawn"

Not many comic book influences, so much as movie influences here...

Bruce agreeing to only steal from criminals, while being relatively homeless, is probably influenced by the portrayal of Bruce in Batman Begins.

Obviously, Paul Reubens's Elijah Van Dahl is the second time that the actor's played Penguin's father. The first being Tucker Cobblepot in Batman Returns. This is one of the rare times that Penguin gets to interact with his father. In the comics, Mr. Cobblepot died when Oswald was young (as Oswald in the TV show was led to believe). Since the cause of death was pneumonia, Oswald's mother always made sure that her son had an umbrella on him.

Does Oswald's relationship with his father follow the abusive pattern depicted in Pain & Prejudice or are they taking it in a new direction altogether?

For now, Oswald's father is kind and paternal. There may be some sinister dealings ahead with the Van Dahl family, though, starting in the next episode.

The trailer for the next episode seems to suggest that it's Oswald's step-siblings and step-mother who are the bad ones in that family.

I'm kinda hoping that this subplot with the Van Dahls is what gets Oswald to develop his aristocratic side. He clearly had aspirations as a kid, but lived poor. He already wore an actual tux in the last episode with them. Is it too much to ask for the beginning of the monocle and the cigarette holder? Would be neat to see Reubens's character teach him how to use them, considering that his Tucker Cobblepot used them too in Batman Returns.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 23 Mar  2016, 18:58
I'm kinda hoping that this subplot with the Van Dahls is what gets Oswald to develop his aristocratic side. He clearly had aspirations as a kid, but lived poor. He already wore an actual tux in the last episode with them. Is it too much to ask for the beginning of the monocle and the cigarette holder? Would be neat to see Reubens's character teach him how to use them, considering that his Tucker Cobblepot used them too in Batman Returns.

I agree, although I'd say it's more 'aristocratic aspirations' than true aristocratic side.  I can see him feeling resentment, much like the Penguin of Batman Returns, of the privileged, aristocratic upbringing he was denied (i.e. his 'birth-right'), and affecting the mannerisms of a typical aristocrat, including the monocle and cigarette-holder.

(thought I throw these here too)

I'm appreciating Gotham more these days, especially with the Burton influences.

"Prisoners"

There's not much to report from this week. Penguin's father dies, suffering from the same fate as his comic counterpart.

Was kinda hoping the warden's name would be revealed to be Lyle Bolton. Oh well...

"Into the Woods"

Another one with very few comic callbacks or influences, though a solid episode nonetheless.

Nygma's Arkham jumpsuit is D-171. Batman #171 was a Riddler story- The Remarkable Ruse of the Riddler.

Has The Riddler ever been so openly exposed as a villain in the comics?  Most of the Riddler stories I'm familiar with paint him as a shady, sinister guy who manages to evade the law as Ed Nygma has done for so long since killing Ms Kringle (although finding him being condemned to Arkham is at least something of a call-back to the ending of 'Batman Forever').

Well I don't think he's ever been arrested and imprisoned before taking on the Riddler persona in the comics. At this point, he may as well don the green question mark suit.

Corey Michael Smith's Nygma went from an irritating character (to me) to being one of the highlights. A solid take.

"Pinewood"

Bruce learns that Hugo Strange was behind his parents' murders. Strange, in this version, obviously plays the Lew Moxon role in calling the hit on Thomas and Martha Wayne.

Theo Galavan is resurrected as Azrael. It's possible that Strange in this continuity is the one who devises "The System" that compels Azrael to be an angel of vengeance and kill.

I noticed when Bruce sews up a rip in Selina's leather jacket, it seemed to be a nod to Catwoman's stitched up costume in Batman Returns.

good catch. Forgot about that.

"Azrael"

As previously mentioned, Galavan is now brainwashed into thinking he is Azrael and Strange is the one who provides him with the costume. One wonders if Galavan will pass the mantle onto Jean Paul Valley's father in the show.

Hugo Strange hints that he used the Pinewood program in order to cure humanity of its diseases and genetic issues, including death. This is similar to his motivation in Matt Wagner's Batman and the Monster Men. His manipulation of Galavan is also reminiscent of his manipulation of Jonathan Crane and turning him back into Scarecrow in the storyline Terror.

As Slash Man pointed out in another thread, Strange reads Alice in Wonderland in his attempts to figure out what "personas" to give to his test subjects. This implies that Strange will change one of his patients into the Mad Hatter.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue,  3 May  2016, 21:24As Slash Man pointed out in another thread, Strange reads Alice in Wonderland in his attempts to figure out what "personas" to give to his test subjects. This implies that Strange will change one of his patients into the Mad Hatter.

I hope this doesn't mean every villain will be a product of Hugo Strange's experiments.  So far we've already had Strange do his tinkering on Azrael, Mr Freeze, The Penguin, The Riddler, Firefly and possibly even The Joker.

Technically, all of those characters and their M.O.s existed prior to Strange. He did pair the Azrael persona to Galavan, but Azrael existed among the Dumas legends beforehand. He kept Freeze alive, but Victor was already freezing and killing people. Penguin, Riddler, and Firefly were also already corrupted before they met Strange.

"Unleashed"

People are speculating that the monstrous inmate that Selina witnessed was either an early Killer Croc or Solomon Grundy.

"A Legion of Horribles"

The bald man whose skin gets warped is identified as Basil, though from the ending, it's obvious that this is Basil Karlo/Clayface. Note that in the comics, Basil Karlo was originally an old actor who wore a mask whereas the Matt Hagen Clayface was the one who had the ability to shapeshift. Karlo later developed this ability too.

The Court of Owls is revealed to be backing Hugo Strange and are identified by their owl masks, much like in the comics.
UPDATE: The Grey Haired Woman on the TV screen may be a version of Maria Powers in the Court of Owls story arc.
Also, the Court is known for resurrecting the dead to become their Talons. Strange's experiments may lead to the creation of the Talons.

"Mr. Stirk" is the man with sharp teeth threatening Edward Nygma. In the comics, Cornelius Stirk is a Batman villain who's a cannibal, though this version of Stirk does not seem to be able to create hallucinations yet

This episode marks the first meeting between Bruce Wayne and Hugo Strange, as well as Bruce and Edward Nygma. Throughout the episode, Bruce noticeably wears black and gray, with a dark black coat.

"Transference"

This season was a major step up from the previous one and managed to effectively combine Hugo Strange's Monster Men with the Court of Owls, the origins of Azrael, and several other Rogues members.

Speculation: The long haired Bruce Wayne at the end is likely going to be Thomas Wayne Jr./Lincoln March and will be revealed to have been Bruce's twin rather than younger brother in this version. Maybe he'll be trained to be Talon.

Also, I swear I heard Cameron Monaghan's laugh and someone who looked like him in the escape of the inmates at the end. Perhaps Strange resurrected Jerome...and he got green hair, white skin, and red lips as a side effect?

Seemed like another nod to Batman Returns with Penguin's campaign committee set up in his mansion.

The Penguin's meeting with Mayor James and the ensuing crossfire was taken directly from the end of Almost Got 'Im
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SG3HhyKEK4