The ending of Batman Returns is a rather strange moment, and one of the most puzzling I've ever seen on film. When Batman confronts Catwoman and pleads her not to kill Max Shreck, he starts to behave rather out of character because of his growing love for her and most likely sees her as his one real chance at happiness. He dismisses Catwoman's declaration that the law doesn't apply to either of them (despite the fact that she's rather correct - Batman is shown to be above the law throughout Burton's films) and he unmasks himself and begs her to come back home with hm. Of course, Catwoman can't forgive herself for the things she has done and rejects Batman, and then she eventually kills Shreck. By the way, I don't know about everybody else, but to me, Batman unmasking himself seemed like he was willing to throw his identity away to be together with Catwoman.
What do you think would have happened if Catwoman had listened to Batman? Would they have retired their alter egos and live together as Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle? Would they really risk turning Shreck over to the police despite knowing their true identities?
i don't think she would have ever listened to him at that point. she knew there was no hope for a happy ending. nothing he could have said or done would have changed that. i mean hell he took off his mask in front of max, that was a pretty bold move and even it wasn't enough. she was so deep in that abyss that not even bruce could pull her back. thats what makes her line earlier so sad, where she says he makes her feel the way she hopes she really is. in the end, she knows she isn't. and the only way to possibly regain even the smallest shred of that is to kill max and avenge what he took from her.
Batman Returns is a fairytale without a happy ending.
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Sat, 13 Sep 2014, 18:32
Batman Returns is a fairytale without a happy ending.
You can tell Burton was going for the twisted fairy tale aspect with the film.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 12 Sep 2014, 03:01
What do you think would have happened if Catwoman had listened to Batman? Would they have retired their alter egos and live together as Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle? Would they really risk turning Shreck over to the police despite knowing their true identities?
They probably would have lived happily ever after. Sat in front of the fireplace every night. Alfred probably would've had babysitting duties as the years passed. They could have become better people and worked through their mental issues together. But instead, Selina kills Max and runs away. The two both hold onto their pain and endure it alone, possibly forever. It's a cruel juxtaposition but the reality.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 13:03
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 12 Sep 2014, 03:01
What do you think would have happened if Catwoman had listened to Batman? Would they have retired their alter egos and live together as Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle? Would they really risk turning Shreck over to the police despite knowing their true identities?
They probably would have lived happily ever after. Sat in front of the fireplace every night. Alfred probably would've had babysitting duties as the years passed. They could have become better people and worked through their mental issues together. But instead, Selina kills Max and runs away. The two both hold onto their pain and endure it alone, possibly forever. It's a cruel juxtaposition but the reality.
But honestly, how could Selina live with herself after the terrible things she had been part of?
I know I wouldn't be able to if I was her.
Selina/Catwoman should have gone to jail, and I dearly hope, seeing as she was alive at the end of the film, that she turned herself in and thus, exonerated Batman of any wrongdoing. If she didn't then Batman should have been arrested and sent to prison/given the death penalty. >:(
She did have vengeance, so I think that turning herself in is possible. But didn't she say that the law didn't apply to people like her, Batman and Schreck? :-\
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 15:44
She did have vengeance, so I think that turning herself in is possible. But didn't she say that the law didn't apply to people like her, Batman and Schreck? :-\
I hope the law came on top of her and/or Batman.
Remember, the cops were trying to shoot Batman at one stage, until that fat buffoon Commissioner Gordon let him get away. >:( They should have been allowed to shoot at him and then taken the injured Batman in for questioning, instead the buffoonish Gordon let Batman get away for good and did nothing to follow-up on the fact he had driven away from the police leaving several crashed police cars in his wake. >:(
I don't care that he save a bunch of brats. What about the other harm he was seen to have caused! >:(
Batman told her to take Schreck to the police and she refused because she wanted to kill him. Would she have turned herself in after all this?
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 16:14
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 15:44
She did have vengeance, so I think that turning herself in is possible. But didn't she say that the law didn't apply to people like her, Batman and Schreck? :-\
I hope the law came on top of her and/or Batman.
Remember, the cops were trying to shoot Batman at one stage, until that fat buffoon Commissioner Gordon let him get away. >:( They should have been allowed to shoot at him and then taken the injured Batman in for questioning, instead the buffoonish Gordon let Batman get away for good and did nothing to follow-up on the fact he had driven away from the police leaving several crashed police cars in his wake. >:(
I don't care that he save a bunch of brats. What about the other harm he was seen to have caused! >:(
you really are an idiot.
Quote from: Catwoman on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 19:53
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 16:14
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 15:44
She did have vengeance, so I think that turning herself in is possible. But didn't she say that the law didn't apply to people like her, Batman and Schreck? :-\
I hope the law came on top of her and/or Batman.
Remember, the cops were trying to shoot Batman at one stage, until that fat buffoon Commissioner Gordon let him get away. >:( They should have been allowed to shoot at him and then taken the injured Batman in for questioning, instead the buffoonish Gordon let Batman get away for good and did nothing to follow-up on the fact he had driven away from the police leaving several crashed police cars in his wake. >:(
I don't care that he save a bunch of brats. What about the other harm he was seen to have caused! >:(
you really are an idiot.
Why are you being so mean to someone so meaningless? :'(
Seriously though, why are certain posters ganging up on me? I don't understand what I've done to offend anyone or bring this abuse upon me. :-\
i'm not ganging up with anyone. this is my opinion alone. if someone else shares it, that's their business.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 15:32
But honestly, how could Selina live with herself after the terrible things she had been part of?
Yes. And you're not her. You're applying your own feelings to the matter.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 15:32
Selina/Catwoman should have gone to jail, and I dearly hope, seeing as she was alive at the end of the film, that she turned herself in and thus, exonerated Batman of any wrongdoing. If she didn't then Batman should have been arrested and sent to prison/given the death penalty. >:(
I doubt she was going to turn herself into the police. These two characters were wraiths. Catch them if you can. They live for the thrill of the night and both think they're doing the right thing.
Quote from: Catwoman on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 23:25
i'm not ganging up with anyone. this is my opinion alone. if someone else shares it, that's their business.
But why do you have to be so rude?
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 23:53
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 15:32
But honestly, how could Selina live with herself after the terrible things she had been part of?
Yes. And you're not her. You're applying your own feelings to the matter.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 15:32
Selina/Catwoman should have gone to jail, and I dearly hope, seeing as she was alive at the end of the film, that she turned herself in and thus, exonerated Batman of any wrongdoing. If she didn't then Batman should have been arrested and sent to prison/given the death penalty. >:(
I doubt she was going to turn herself into the police. These two characters were wraiths. Catch them if you can. They live for the thrill of the night and both think they're doing the right thing.
If Selina thought she was doing the right thing why would she feel so traumatised and embattled at the end?
And if neither she nor Bruce were going to turn themselves in I hope the police wouldn't rest until they were apprehended and brought to justice. Imagine if someone you cared about was killed by Batman or Catwoman, would you stop until justice was done? I know I wouldn't.
Batman and Catwoman took down absolute garbage. I have zero sympathy for Max Schreck or circus members who terrorize the public causing destruction and mayhem. You do, but I don't. It is absolutely obvious Catwoman did what she thought was right. She weighed up the offer from Bruce and said no. She did her own thing. If she wanted to live with Bruce she would have. The right thing doesn't always have to equate to happiness.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 03:23
Batman and Catwoman took down absolute garbage. I have zero sympathy for Max Schreck or circus members who terrorize the public causing destruction and mayhem. You do, but I don't. It is absolutely obvious Catwoman did what she thought was right. She weighed up the offer from Bruce and said no. She did her own thing. If she wanted to live with Bruce she would have. The right thing doesn't always have to equate to happiness.
No you misunderstood me Dark Knight. :)
I don't mean Max or the Red Triangle Circus Gang. I have
very limited sympathy for them myself.
I mean the Ice Princess, whose murder was never resolved, and the various drivers the Batmobile struck on its apparent crazed joyride, some of whom might also have been killed.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 01:12
Quote from: Catwoman on Mon, 15 Sep 2014, 23:25
i'm not ganging up with anyone. this is my opinion alone. if someone else shares it, that's their business.
But why do you have to be so rude?
not being rude. just saying that when it comes to batman and catwoman and batman returns as a whole, you're an idiot. or at least you really act like one.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 03:47
I mean the Ice Princess, whose murder was never resolved, and the various drivers the Batmobile struck on its apparent crazed joyride, some of whom might also have been killed.
Ah, gotcha. However Batman didn't kill the Ice Princess, and nor was he responsible for the Batmobile joyride. Penguin hijacked it.
Unless my memory is becoming hazy, the one thing that Batman Returns and Batman: Mask of the Phantasm have in common is that neither film shows Batman being exonerated for the crimes he was accused of committing, but they still have the Batsignal light up in the sky in the end.
RE: Max Shreck - I had an interesting debate with Silver Nemesis about the ending of BR recently. He argued how it was a double standard for Batman to not want to have Shreck killed when he has been responsible for causing more distress in Gotham than the Red Triangle Gang i.e. corruption and the murder of Atkins (the severed hand Penguin showed right at the start of the film). I argued that Batman's judgment was clouded because he was too concerned to save Catwoman from herself and wanted to salvage the opportunity of finding happiness with her. The fact that he ripped off his mask in front of Shreck goes to show how emotionally vulnerable we see Batman for the only time in two films.
What do you think?
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 04:21
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 03:47
I mean the Ice Princess, whose murder was never resolved, and the various drivers the Batmobile struck on its apparent crazed joyride, some of whom might also have been killed.
Ah, gotcha. However Batman didn't kill the Ice Princess, and nor was he responsible for the Batmobile joyride. Penguin hijacked it.
Sure but he was attributed with the murder and the joyride, and the police therefore had a duty to investigate him. And in turn he should have handed himself into the police in order to clear his name and end the doubt, and the distress, for the people disturbed by what they believe he had done.
Even better, Catwoman should have handed herself into the police in order to absolve Batman/Bruce of these crimes.
I can't believe that anyone would rest until they got to the bottom of had had apparently occurred. In fact the notion deeply offends me.
Maybe Catwoman did have a change of heart after killing Schreck, remember that she was a good person who was driven insane. It also would explain why we never see her again. I doubt that she could've walked away from everything. Or maybe The Dark Knight is right and she'd go on living as Catwoman.
Bruce was only concerned with making Selina listen to him, I think he even forgot that Schreck was there.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 07:36
Sure but he was attributed with the murder and the joyride, and the police therefore had a duty to investigate him. And in turn he should have handed himself into the police in order to clear his name and end the doubt, and the distress, for the people disturbed by what they believe he had done.
Even better, Catwoman should have handed herself into the police in order to absolve Batman/Bruce of these crimes.
I can't believe that anyone would rest until they got to the bottom of had had apparently occurred. In fact the notion deeply offends me.
Like I said in the previous page, the fact that the ending shows the Batsignal lighting up in the sky must have meant Batman had been exonerated from all involvement of these crimes, but just like in Mask of the Phantasm, we were never shown that. We're just left to assume the hero was found clear of any wrongdoing, but the murders of the Ice Princess and the Valestra mob in both movies remained unresolved.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 08:26
Like I said in the previous page, the fact that the ending shows the Batsignal lighting up in the sky must have meant Batman had been exonerated from all involvement of these crimes, but just like in Mask of the Phantasm, we were never shown that. We're just left to assume the hero was found clear of any wrongdoing, but the murders of the Ice Princess and the Valestra mob in both movies remained unresolved.
But that's what offends me so. The Valestra mob were a bunch of lowlifes. I doubt anyone was too sad to see them gone. However, I can't buy that the Ice Princess's death would just be left unresolved like that without anyone putting up a fuss. It's one thing for Thomas and Martha Wayne's murder to go unresolved, but in this case the police had a lead suspect: Batman. Even if they think he's innocent they'd have to question him and find an alternative suspect, because as far as anyone else could tell he was the one who pushed her, and she had no other reason to be up on the roof ledge ready to drop.
How could the police be content to close the case with that large question mark? Like I said, that's what deeply offends me. >:(
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 09:16
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 08:26
Like I said in the previous page, the fact that the ending shows the Batsignal lighting up in the sky must have meant Batman had been exonerated from all involvement of these crimes, but just like in Mask of the Phantasm, we were never shown that. We're just left to assume the hero was found clear of any wrongdoing, but the murders of the Ice Princess and the Valestra mob in both movies remained unresolved.
But that's what offends me so. The Valestra mob were a bunch of lowlifes. I doubt anyone was too sad to see them gone. However, I can't buy that the Ice Princess's death would just be left unresolved like that without anyone putting up a fuss. It's one thing for Thomas and Martha Wayne's murder to go unresolved, but in this case the police had a lead suspect: Batman. Even if they think he's innocent they'd have to question him and find an alternative suspect, because as far as anyone else could tell he was the one who pushed her, and she had no other reason to be up on the roof ledge ready to drop.
How could the police be content to close the case with that large question mark? Like I said, that's what deeply offends me. >:(
Fair point. The Ice Princess plotline becomes an afterthought by the end of the film. Unless, we assume that Batman somehow proved his innocence to the police off-screen and that's why the Batsignal lights up in the end.
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 07:47
Bruce was only concerned with making Selina listen to him, I think he even forgot that Schreck was there.
Which probably explains his emotional state when he ripped his mask off.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 09:16
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 08:26
Like I said in the previous page, the fact that the ending shows the Batsignal lighting up in the sky must have meant Batman had been exonerated from all involvement of these crimes, but just like in Mask of the Phantasm, we were never shown that. We're just left to assume the hero was found clear of any wrongdoing, but the murders of the Ice Princess and the Valestra mob in both movies remained unresolved.
But that's what offends me so. The Valestra mob were a bunch of lowlifes. I doubt anyone was too sad to see them gone. However, I can't buy that the Ice Princess's death would just be left unresolved like that without anyone putting up a fuss. It's one thing for Thomas and Martha Wayne's murder to go unresolved, but in this case the police had a lead suspect: Batman. Even if they think he's innocent they'd have to question him and find an alternative suspect, because as far as anyone else could tell he was the one who pushed her, and she had no other reason to be up on the roof ledge ready to drop.
How could the police be content to close the case with that large question mark? Like I said, that's what deeply offends me. >:(
IT'S A MOVIE, DUDE! SHE'S NOT REAL.
try going up to cristi conaway and asking if she figured out how to light a tree yet. she's not going to say "omg that is sooooo funny but you know what, i did!" and she's not going to say "i'm also an actress" cause she retired. lol.
you take this WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too seriously. you remind me of the people who kill themselves over those roleplaying computer games.
Quote from: Catwoman on Tue, 16 Sep 2014, 19:44
IT'S A MOVIE, DUDE! SHE'S NOT REAL.
try going up to cristi conaway and asking if she figured out how to light a tree yet. she's not going to say "omg that is sooooo funny but you know what, i did!" and she's not going to say "i'm also an actress" cause she retired. lol.
you take this WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too seriously. you remind me of the people who kill themselves over those roleplaying computer games.
The bit I highlighted is admittedly very funny. ;D
And I guess it's just as well I don't play roleplaying games. But what is this about people killing themselves over it? Really?
And I know a character isn't real just as much as you know you're not really Catwoman. ;) But I still like to make logical sense of the films I like and the characters within them.
if you make logical sense of it batman would be arrested and thrown in the nuthouse instead of being an ally of gotham pd and the commish. it was your ugly descriptions of the commish that is what made me originally call you an idiot by the way lol.
Assuming Shreck survives with the knowledge that Bruce Wayne is Batman: then what? Shreck had no real evidence to back it up beyond his own recollection. People assume that Batman's career has to end if someone knows his identity, but he doesn't know about the Batcave or anything else. Besides, Batman's dealt with this issue before; after Dr. Strange found out that Bruce Wayne was Batman, Batman set up his own scheme to trick Strange into thinking otherwise.