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Who else is looking forward to this? Netflix is planning to release all 13 episodes simultaneously in May 2015. Steven S. DeKnight (Spartacus) is the series showrunner. English actor Charlie Cox (Stardust, Boardwalk Empire) is playing Matt Murdock/Daredevil.


And in one of the best pieces of comic book casting ever, Vincent D'Onofrio (Full Metal Jacket, Law and Order: Criminal Intent) will be playing Wilson Fisk/the Kingpin.


Other confirmed cast members include Eldon Henson as Foggy Nelson and Deborah Ann Woll as Karen Page. Rosario Dawson's also been cast in an undisclosed role.

Filming began in July. DeKnight commented on the tone of the series, saying:

Quote"We're going for a gritty, 1970s' New York feel for the show. We love the idea of beauty and the decay of the city, and Hell's Kitchen being a place that's both beautiful and gritty at the same time. And that's why Matt Murdock loves it and wants to protect it."

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2014/07/22/netflixs-daredevil-to-have-a-gritty-1970s-new-york-feel

I've got high hopes for this show. I'm predicting this will be Marvel's best live action TV series since The Incredible Hulk (1978-82).

Has marvel attempted live action TV since the Incredible Hulk? I know they wanted Thor and Daredevil back in the 90's but neither took off.

Daredevil is one of my 5 favourite comic characters so I'll blindly watch any live action medium he comes in. If any of you haven't seen the directors cut of the Affleck film, check it out, it's well worth it.

I think the casting choice I'm most interested in is Elden Henson. His acting in the Buttefly Effect was outstanding, for those who haven't seen it, it's about a character who has the ability to go back in time internally to various points of his life and make different decisions and thus always returns to a different version of the present. Henson plays his best friend and his character varies with each time travel. In reality Henson gained a lot of weight to film scenes where his character ends up crazy and then lost it to film scenes where his character ends normal. I thought his career would take off after that but sadly it never did.

Looks like they got a Kingpin, he`s one of the toughest comic characters to cast.

I`m hoping this takes off, not just because I`m a daredevil fan but I`m of the belief that TV is a better live action medium to portray comics than movies. Sadly due to budget reasons it`s a tough act to pull off on the small screen but DC seems to be getting it right with Arrow and Daredevil is one which can work on a smaller budget.


I`m also happy this is on netflix; typically netflix shows have less interference; TV you have to contend with the creators, the sponsors, the networks, and the fact that ratings almost always make one of the above greedy. Netflix shows are released all at once and don`t have that to contend with. And honestly they need not worry too heavily about ratings since that`s not how Netflix makes their money.

I'm a casual Daredevil fan at best. I have issue #2 (featuring Electro), the first appearance of Elektra, and some of the Masterworks collections, along with other select issues, but that's about it. Having said that, I'm more familiar with Daredevil's early days written by Stan Lee, and some of the Frank Miller stuff, but haven't really made it a point in collecting or making myself familiar with the character outside of what I read off the internet (and the excellent documentary interviewing notable people who worked on Daredevil comics found on the 2-disc theatrical cut of 2003's Daredevil movie).

As far as the show goes, I'm looking forward to checking it out, and hope for the best with it. The casting, as a whole, is pretty good, and I've liked what I've read about it so far. Fingers crossed of course.

Quote from: riddler on Thu, 31 Jul  2014, 23:56
Has marvel attempted live action TV since the Incredible Hulk?

•   Night Man (1997-1999)
•   Mutant X (2001-2004)
•   Blade: The Series (2006)
•   Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (2013-?)

Pilots were also produced for Power Pack (1991) and Generation X (1996), but the shows were never picked up.

Quote from: riddler on Thu, 31 Jul  2014, 23:56I`m hoping this takes off, not just because I`m a daredevil fan but I`m of the belief that TV is a better live action medium to portray comics than movies. Sadly due to budget reasons it`s a tough act to pull off on the small screen but DC seems to be getting it right with Arrow and Daredevil is one which can work on a smaller budget.

I agree 100%. The serialised nature of a TV show can better match the episodic structure of a comic book storyline. As you say, the only real obstacle is budget.

I've been quite vocal on this site about my weariness regarding superhero shows that avoid costumes, superpowers and other elements deemed "too comic booky" for the medium of television. But with Arrow gradually embracing the more fantastic aspects of the mythology, and now The Flash following in its footsteps, it looks like that trend may finally be coming to an end. And hopefully Daredevil will hammer the final nail into its coffin. This show is after all part of the MCU, and with Captain America and Iron Man wearing their costumes from the comics, it would be kind of weird if Daredevil didn't wear his.

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  1 Aug  2014, 14:21I'm a casual Daredevil fan at best. I have issue #2 (featuring Electro), the first appearance of Elektra, and some of the Masterworks collections, along with other select issues, but that's about it. Having said that, I'm more familiar with Daredevil's early days written by Stan Lee, and some of the Frank Miller stuff, but haven't really made it a point in collecting or making myself familiar with the character outside of what I read off the internet (and the excellent documentary interviewing notable people who worked on Daredevil comics found on the 2-disc theatrical cut of 2003's Daredevil movie).

Nowadays I'm only a casual Daredevil fan too. But I went through an intense Daredevil phase when I was a kid. I read a lot of the nineties comics, plus I collected the Frank Miller 'Man Without Fear' arc. Looking back on it, that was probably the first Frank Miller comic I ever read. But I've never read the early Stan Lee stories. I should try and track down a collected edition of those before the new series starts. 

Does anyone remember The Trial of the Incredible Hulk (1989) TV movie with Rex Smith as Daredevil and John Rhys-Davies as the Kingpin?

I have the first two Incredible Hulk films; the first one featuring Thor (which was fun but not overly faithful). The daredevil one was good although I wasn't a huge fan of the costume clearly revealing the blindness.


DC in general lately has been apprehensive about adapting comic books to live action. As mentioned the second season of Arrow seem to embrace it more and so far the Flash looks like it will. Marvels' never had that problem; they deviate their films from comics but overall make no bones about whom their target audience is. I think DC gets too greedy trying to appeal to a broader audience while Marvel would rather satisfy the audience they already have.

Now the ironic thing is daredevil is a hero who could fit the DC grounded style. His super powers are somewhat embellished but he's a realistic individual for the most part as are his main villains. Even though it will never happen, you could definitely fit Daredevil in Batman and Green Arrow's world.

Quote from: riddler on Sat,  2 Aug  2014, 09:26Now the ironic thing is daredevil is a hero who could fit the DC grounded style. His super powers are somewhat embellished but he's a realistic individual for the most part as are his main villains. Even though it will never happen, you could definitely fit Daredevil in Batman and Green Arrow's world.

It happened.


I've just finished reading Daredevil: Born Again after numerous online sources credited it as one of the best Marvel comics ever published. All I can say is wow. If you haven't read it, go buy a copy. Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli worked on it not long before they did Batman: Year One, and in my opinion Born Again is every bit as good as Year One. Hopefully the new TV series will adapt that storyline at some point.

The first images of Charlie Cox as Matt Murdock have appeared online.


Looking good so far. Still no pics of the costume yet, but I'm predicting Marvel will release one fairly soon. They'll want to pre-empt amateur pictures being taken during location shoots. And since they're filming it right now, that could happen at any moment.

The big question is, will it be the yellow and black outfit, or the more dominant red version?

Here's D'Onofrio's ALS ice bucket challenge video.


It looks like he's got the perfect balance of bulk and muscle, and with his head shaved he looks exactly like the Kingpin from the comics. He's going to own this role. ;D

Now show us the Daredevil costume!

Netflix CCO Ted Sarandos has hinted the show will have a darker, more violent tone than the 2003 Daredevil film.

Quote"The series will not be afraid to go darker than the film did. What we love about this particular set of heroes is that they're a little more down to Earth. Costume wise and also in that these are gritty crime stories, more in the streets than in the clouds."

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=106533

Apparently a screen test leaked on the internet earlier in the year. The scene in question featured the Kingpin forcing one character to cut another character's arms off. I assumed that scene wouldn't be in the final series, owing to the level of violence involved. But now I'm not so sure...

Speaking of the Kingpin, D'Onofrio did the ice bucket challenge yet again. And this time he challenged Daredevil himself, Charlie Cox.


Here's Cox's response to his "sworn enemy".


Cox has clearly been hitting the gym. It looks like he's got the right physique for the role. Hopefully he's been taking some martial arts classes too.

Now about that costume...

Damn! As if the casting couldn't get any more perfect, Scott Glenn has signed on to play Daredevil's mentor Stick! Scott Glenn, who appeared in one of my favourite films of all time: The Hunt for the Red October (1990). He also appeared in Apocalypse Now (1979), The Right Stuff (1983) and The Silence of the Lambs (1991). Not to mention Michael Mann's cult classic The Keep (1983).


This has to be the most impressive cast for any superhero TV show to date. I can't say I've seen anything with Deborah Ann Woll in before, but judging from the pics of her online, she's quite a stunner.


I've also read that her real life boyfriend is blind. I expect that will add an extra layer of poignancy and earnestness to her performance.

Here are a few recent quotes from showrunner DeKnight concerning the tone of the show:

Quote"With this version of Daredevil we wanted it to be grounded, gritty, as realistic as we could portray. That naturally fits in with the Daredevil character. Matt Murdock, on a regular basis, would get the sh*t beat out of him. That's one thing that makes him a great character. He's not super strong. He's not invulnerable. In every aspect, he's a man that's just pushed himself to the limits, he just has senses that are better than a normal humans. He is human. The other thing that really drew me to this character is that he's one of the most morally grey of the heroes... He's a lawyer by day, and he's taken this oath. But every night he breaks that oath, and goes out and does very violent things."

http://www.superherohype.com/news/315145-marvels-daredevil-showrunner-stephen-s-deknight-describes-a-grounded-gritty-series

When asked on Twitter about how violent the show would be, he replied:

Quote"Less than Spartacus, more than SHIELD."

And added:

Quote"There will be blood."

The cast and crew have been confirmed to appear at New York Comic Con next month. Which means we have less than a month to go before we see the costume, and possibly even some footage. ;D

Thanks Silver Nemesis.  Scott Glenn is indeed great casting.

What part is Deborah Ann Woll playing?

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 15 Sep  2014, 22:24What part is Deborah Ann Woll playing?

She's playing Matt's love interest, Karen Page. I don't want to give away any spoilers for those not familiar with the comics, but suffice it to say that Karen has – ahem – a bit of a rough time. And that's putting it mildly.

I hope the TV version will have an easier time of it, otherwise her arc could turn into a textbook example of the 'Break the Cutie' trope.

Marvel has revealed the series logo.


Just a few days to go now before we finally see the costume at NYCC! Hopefully we'll see some footage too! ;D

That's a great logo.  It promises the type of pulpy fun I hope and expect from Marvel Studios, and which is sadly missing from various other studios' (*cough*Fox*cough*) handling of the various comic-book characters.

http://marvel.com/news/tv/23448/your_official_first_look_at_charlie_cox_in_marvels_daredvil_on_netflix

The costume definitely evokes both the Rex Smith costume and the early suit from Frank Miller's Man Without Fear comic (and it seems that the costume will evolve since the article says it's his "first suit.")

I didn't mind Rex Smith's portrayal but I didn't like the costume for the simple fact that it implies that Daredevil is visually impaired taking away the element of surprise.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 16 Sep  2014, 14:27
She's playing Matt's love interest, Karen Page. I don't want to give away any spoilers for those not familiar with the comics, but suffice it to say that Karen has – ahem – a bit of a rough time. And that's putting it mildly.

I hope the TV version will have an easier time of it, otherwise her arc could turn into a textbook example of the 'Break the Cutie' trope.

Right. Yeah, Karen, later on down the line, becomes anything but the girl you want to take home to momma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgwjB2uzFHw
Honestly, I think the suit from the movie was better. Still looking forward to the series, though.

Anyone check this out yet?

I felt it was pretty solid, though maybe a bit overrated. There were a few episodes that were a little slow for me and a few creative choices I found odd, but overall, a good start and definitely had the feeling of a 13-hour long origin movie for Daredevil and Kingpin.

SPOILERS:
This might just be me, but I never thought the 2003 film was that bad and even felt that the TV show lifted certain elements from it, such as Matt confiding his dilemmas (and his secret identity) to a Catholic priest as well as the character arc revolving around Matt's line "I'm not the bad guy." Both the show and the movie also adapted Fisk's assistant Wesley from Born Again, though the show called him James Wesley while the movie called him Wesley Owen Welch.

Still feel that Affleck's red suit was better, but this red one worked for the context and you can't help but cheer inside once he's got it on and starts taking down Fisk at the end.

I anticipate Owlsley's son will come to New York in the next season and become The Owl, since his father obviously can't take on that persona. Don't think he'll be too happy with Fisk.

I watched the entire first season a few weeks ago.

I too felt it had a slow couple of episodes, but it eventually got better, particularly the finale. I'll admit that the show does have this "gritty realistic" vibe that plagued most of the DC film and TV adaptations over the last decade, but the difference is this show does it WAY better, and the characterizations made it work. Murdock does get physically and mentally hurt, and his crime-fighting carries a lot of personal demons in the same way the Affleck movie did, but his relationships with Karen Page, Foggy and the nurse Claire help humanize him. Wilson Fisk is a ruthless mob boss, but at the same time he carries his own demons and is trying to fill a void in his romantic life; which means even he has some humanity left in him. I'd go far by saying that he is one of the most complex villains I've seen since DeVito's Penguin. The old man who played Leland (the warden from The Shawshank Redemption) plays Fisk's snarky financial associate who insults people doing questionable things is something that I for one appreciate. The rest of the supporting cast play their roles effectively too, particularly Karen Page and Foggy Nelson.

I didn't mind the 2003 movie either, but there were aspects I thought the show does much better. **MILD SPOILERS**For example, the show has Matt Murdock being trained by a blind man called Stick, to help control and advance his senses, as opposed to Matt training by himself on the roof top in the movie. Murdock initially saw Stick as a father figure, but the man was too cold and cared only for the fight, and their relationship becomes tense later on.

As a show set in the MCU, it really doesn't feel like it is because of its extreme violence, and serious tone. And that's something that would've bothered me several years ago, but I can appreciate this show because it's much better written and acted than nearly anything that DC has been recently renowned for. So yeah, I'd recommend it.

BTW, for those who haven't checked it out yet, you should see the fight scene at the end of the second episode. It happens all in one ONE TAKE.

P.S. - Personally BatmAngelus, this is how Arrow's third season should've been. Had that show used Brick as the main villain in the same style as Kingpin here, without that BS with Ra's al Ghul and convoluted sub-plots, it would've been so much better.

QuoteI'll admit that the show does have this "gritty realistic" vibe that plagued most of the DC film and TV adaptations over the last decade, but the difference is this show does it WAY better, and the characterizations made it work.

Agreed. This show outdid DC at its own game.

I think it was David Mazzuchelli who said, when working on Batman Year One, that "We sought to craft a credible Batman, grounded in a world we recognize. But, did we go too far? Once a depiction veers toward realism, each new detail releases a torrent of questions that exposes the absurdity at the heart of the genre. The more 'realistic' superheroes become the less believable they are."

In other words, the more you surround these comic book characters in the real world, the more absurd they might seem, as opposed to an Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy where the sci-fi elements are in full swing.

That said, I did feel that once the red suit came into the picture, they slightly amped up the cheese factor. Daredevil seemed to be doing some extra poses/flips in comparison to when he was in the black suit. The dialogue felt a little more on the nose between him and Kingpin during the fight and Daredevil's final slo-mo battle cry punch on Fisk felt a little out of place to me in the same series as that hallway fight from episode 2. It wasn't bad, it just felt like they had switched styles without reason.

And agreed about how this could've been a superior Arrow Season 3, with Brick in the Kingpin role vs Oliver-on-the-streets/without his fortune, becoming the full on Green Arrow by the end of the season (Speaking of the money issue, it was annoying how Season 2 made such a big deal of Slade & Isabel stripping the Queens of their fortune and the Season 3 premiere had Oliver even say "I can't afford anything," yet they completely dropped all of that and allowed him to travel to Corto Maltese, Central City, and Nanda Parbat).

An urban warfare story between Brick and Oliver would've helped it feel like an actual Green Arrow story instead of another attempt to mimic Batman and could've avoided another "This villain wants to destroy the city!" finale. Hell, since Season 3 coincided with The Flash's debut, it could've had Brick as a metahuman from the Flash's particle accelerator explosion and explained how the hell he was impervious to bullets.

For marvels first attempt at an actual super hero comic series since the MCU I felt they did well.

They showed how they can be dark while still embracing the comics.

Elden Henson and Deborah ann wolf worked well together.

My only complaint if you could call it that is I felt they exhausted too many important plot points including killing important characters in the first season and I'm not sure how many they have left in the tank.

The avengers references were kept to a minimum; mainly that super heroes and aliens exist and that New York had been decimated.

New trailer of the upcoming second season is out now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5_A0Wx0jU4

It may not be the best trailer cut I've ever seen, but it does a good enough of showing us how the Punisher perceives Daredevil.

Can't wait to binge watch this.

The new trailer drops tomorrow. In the meantime, here are some other promotional items for season 2.

This first one's inspired by Saint Sebastian's martyrdom, echoing Matt and Claire's conversation about saints and martyrs during the first season.





This next one's inspired by Caravaggio's 'Saint Jerome Writing'.

The first season was aces, can't wait to check out Season 2.  :)

As far as I'm concerned, DD season 1 set a new standard for dark/serious live action superhero adaptations. This may sound like hyperbole, but I honestly feel it surpassed any of the 'dark' Batman films. I watched it three times within the first month of its release, including once over the first weekend, and I've watched it several more times since. I thought my enthusiasm might wane after the hype died down, but it's only increased.

Presently I'm more excited about DD season 2 than I am about Batman v Superman or any other comic book movie this year. If season 2 is even remotely as good as season 1, I'll be happy. If it matches the quality of season 1, I'll be impressed. If it surpasses season 1.... then my mind will be blown.

And here's the new trailer!

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 24 Feb  2016, 23:02
As far as I'm concerned, DD season 1 set a new standard for dark/serious live action superhero adaptations. This may sound like hyperbole, but I honestly feel it surpassed any of the 'dark' Batman films. I watched it three times within the first month of its release, including once over the first weekend, and I've watched it several more times since. I thought my enthusiasm might wane after the hype died down, but it's only increased.

Presently I'm more excited about DD season 2 than I am about Batman v Superman or any other comic book movie this year. If season 2 is even remotely as good as season 1, I'll be happy. If it matches the quality of season 1, I'll be impressed. If it surpasses season 1.... then my mind will be blown.

I'd like to ask you as an expert on DD comics, and since you mentioned Nolan's films. Do you think his very concept lends itself much better to a "grounded" approach compared to Batman?

Here's another version of the trailer, this time without the subtitles.


I'm calling it now – the hooded figure at the 1:52 mark is the resurrected Nobu. They'll reveal his name's Kirigi or Kagenobu, and that maybe he's a member of Snakeroot. And the 'rising' could well be the summoning of the Beast. Maybe this season will end on a cliffhanger, with Matt being possessed and assuming control of the Hand. Then The Defenders miniseries could be an adaptation of Shadowland.

And the new mask is a massive improvement over the old one. I liked the costume from the first season, but the mask was my one complaint. This one looks perfect.

Quote from: Nycteris on Thu, 25 Feb  2016, 13:31
I'd like to ask you as an expert on DD comics, and since you mentioned Nolan's films. Do you think his very concept lends itself much better to a "grounded" approach compared to Batman?

That's a good question, Nycteris, and one I've thought about quite a bit. On the surface, you'd think Batman would lend itself better to the grounded approach. After all, the central plot of DD season 1 predicated upon the economic fallout resulting from the Chitauri invasion in The Avengers. It's hard to imagine an alien invasion occurring in the Nolanverse. Ultimately they're both perfectly legitimate adaptations of their respective source materials, and in both cases they preserved the essence of the titular hero intact. But Daredevil definitely sticks closer to the comics and makes far fewer concessions to 'realism' than Nolan's films.

Don't get me wrong, I think what Nolan did with his trilogy was fantastic. But he did strip away numerous aspects of the mythology to make the material conform to his vision. And in the context of his films, it worked. But in the case of Daredevil there really aren't that many deviations from the comics. The only two major changes were the toning down of Owlsley and the death of a certain main character. Other than that, it's pretty much spot on with the source material.

Batman is more sci-fi oriented than Daredevil and involves lots of high-tech gadgets and vehicles. Batman's also central to a wider cast of colourful supporting characters, not to mention a member of the JLA. In order to keep it grounded, Nolan had to cut most of that stuff out. So did Burton for that matter. But Daredevil doesn't have many gadgets and he doesn't pilot any over-the-top vehicles. He's just a street level vigilante operating out of a real area of New York (or San Francisco, depending on which era of the comics we're talking about). Daredevil mostly operates alone. He's worked with other heroes like Black Widow and Luke Cage, and in the current run by Charles Soule he's even taken on a sidekick named Blind Spot. But none of those characters are as fantastical as Superman or Wonder Woman. So although Daredevil does occasionally hang out with the likes of Spider-Man and his ilk, he mostly keeps the company of other street level vigilantes.

I think the Charlie Cox Daredevil is sufficiently close to the comic book version that they're more or less interchangeable. They're physically very similar, they move and fight the same, they possess the same abilities and skills, the same morality, philosophy, personality, etc. I can't honestly say that about any of the recent live action incarnations of Batman. They all display aspects of the Modern Age Batman from the comics, but none embody the character 100%. The versions from Batman: The Animated Series and the Arkham games are perfect translations of the Modern Age Batman, and Adam West's Batman was every bit as interchangeable with the Silver Age comic book version. But Keaton, Kilmer, Clooney and Bale? Not so much.

Once again, I'm not dissing the Batman films. I think they're great. But they present versions of Batman rather than literal adaptations. They're still Batman, just not the comic version. Whereas the MCU Daredevil is so close to the comic version that they may as well be the same guy. And Marvel/Netflix achieved that without any significant dilution of the character or his abilities. So despite the fact Matt Murdock possesses superhuman senses and Bruce Wayne doesn't, I do think the former character is better suited to the gritty/realistic approach than the latter. Because at the end of the day the Daredevil comics are mostly gritty and grounded, while the tone of the Batman comics is based more on a hybridisation of grittiness, sci-fi and fantasy.

The second season does look more comic book oriented, with Elektra, The Hand, and the Punisher.

I confess, I've only read The Man Without Fear when it comes to the Elektra stories. I really need to read the original Miller run.

When it comes to the Punisher, I have the whole Punisher Year One arc as well as a collection of Punisher's first appearances. I imagine these will come in handy when it comes to doing the comic book influences on the show. They're obviously adapting the part from Welcome Back Frank where he chains Matt up, but since the show's covering his origin too, I'm curious what their take will be.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Thu, 25 Feb  2016, 19:36
I confess, I've only read The Man Without Fear when it comes to the Elektra stories. I really need to read the original Miller run.

Get the Miller/Janson Omnibus. You'll love it. ;)

I feel very nostalgic about The Man Without Fear, mainly because I had all the original issues as a kid back in the nineties (which I unfortunately sold as a teenager). But re-reading the TPB edition now, I have a problem with the way Miller depicted Elektra. Admittedly I'm not the biggest Elektra fan to begin with. 'The Elektra Saga' was a great storyline, but as far as female love interest/villains go, Typhoid Mary is far more compelling. I rank Typhoid as my second favourite Daredevil villain after Bullseye. Elektra would be much lower on the list.

The main problem I have with the way she's portrayed in TMWF is that it totally undermines her character arc. When Miller first depicted her origin in Daredevil Vol 1 #168, he portrayed her as an ordinary college girl. Then her father dies and she disappears, only to return about a decade later as a coldblooded assassin. It was a shocking turn of events that made you question what transpired during the intervening years to change her so drastically.

But in The Man Without Fear, Miller's revisionist approach portrays the college-age Elektra as a bloodthirsty sadist from the get go; a coldblooded murderer hearing voices in her head telling her to kill. It eliminates the more innocent, vulnerable side of her personality and rewrites her character arc so she was always a killer. The shocking contrast between before her father was killed and afterwards is totally lost.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Thu, 25 Feb  2016, 19:36When it comes to the Punisher, I have the whole Punisher Year One arc as well as a collection of Punisher's first appearances. I imagine these will come in handy when it comes to doing the comic book influences on the show. They're obviously adapting the part from Welcome Back Frank where he chains Matt up, but since the show's covering his origin too, I'm curious what their take will be.

I own all the Daredevil/Punisher crossovers – including Welcome Back, Frank – but beyond that I don't have many Punisher comics. I certainly haven't read Year One. So when it comes to the analysis I'll appreciate any help you can offer. I'll be fine on the Daredevil and Elektra references, but the Punisher material is where I'll need assistance.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 25 Feb  2016, 19:06

Quote from: Nycteris on Thu, 25 Feb  2016, 13:31
I'd like to ask you as an expert on DD comics, and since you mentioned Nolan's films. Do you think his very concept lends itself much better to a "grounded" approach compared to Batman?

That's a good question, Nycteris, and one I've thought about quite a bit. On the surface, you'd think Batman would lend itself better to the grounded approach. After all, the central plot of DD season 1 predicated upon the economic fallout resulting from the Chitauri invasion in The Avengers. It's hard to imagine an alien invasion occurring in the Nolanverse. Ultimately they're both perfectly legitimate adaptations of their respective source materials, and in both cases they preserved the essence of the titular hero intact. But Daredevil definitely sticks closer to the comics and makes far fewer concessions to 'realism' than Nolan's films.

Don't get me wrong, I think what Nolan did with his trilogy was fantastic. But he did strip away numerous aspects of the mythology to make the material conform to his vision. And in the context of his films, it worked. But in the case of Daredevil there really aren't that many deviations from the comics. The only two major changes were the toning down of Owlsley and the death of a certain main character. Other than that, it's pretty much spot on with the source material.

Batman is more sci-fi oriented than Daredevil and involves lots of high-tech gadgets and vehicles. Batman's also central to a wider cast of colourful supporting characters, not to mention a member of the JLA. In order to keep it grounded, Nolan had to cut most of that stuff out. So did Burton for that matter. But Daredevil doesn't have many gadgets and he doesn't pilot any over-the-top vehicles. He's just a street level vigilante operating out of a real area of New York (or San Francisco, depending on which era of the comics we're talking about). Daredevil mostly operates alone. He's worked with other heroes like Black Widow and Luke Cage, and in the current run by Charles Soule he's even taken on a sidekick named Billy Li. But none of those characters are as fantastical as Superman or Wonder Woman. So although Daredevil does occasionally hang out with the likes of Spider-Man and his ilk, he mostly keeps the company of other street level vigilantes.

I think the Charlie Cox Daredevil is sufficiently close to the comic book version that they're more or less interchangeable. They're physically very similar, they move and fight the same, they possess the same abilities and skills, the same morality, philosophy, personality, etc. I can't honestly say that about any of the recent live action incarnations of Batman. They all display aspects of the Modern Age Batman from the comics, but none embody the character 100%. The versions from Batman: The Animated Series and the Arkham games are perfect translations of the Modern Age Batman, and Adam West's Batman was every bit as interchangeable with the Silver Age comic book version. But Keaton, Kilmer, Clooney and Bale? Not so much.

Once again, I'm not dissing the Batman films. I think they're great. But they present versions of Batman rather than literal adaptations. They're still Batman, just not the comic version. Whereas the MCU Daredevil is so close to the comic version that they may as well be the same guy. And Marvel/Netflix achieved that without any significant dilution of the character or his abilities. So despite the fact Matt Murdock possesses superhuman senses and Bruce Wayne doesn't, I do think the former character is better suited to the gritty/realistic approach than the latter. Because at the end of the day the Daredevil comics are mostly gritty and grounded, while the tone of the Batman comics is based more on a hybridisation of grittiness, sci-fi and fantasy.

Thanks for taking the time, Silver Nemesis. A fascinating read. Just a few scattered thoughts of mine.

IMO their surrounding universes shouldn't be a factor in comparing them i.e. Netflix's DD isn't more fantastical than Nolan's Batman just because the economic fallout was caused by events from the Avengers; what the viewer (or reader) sees is a street level vigilante fighting crime.

Gotham (in the comics) is also pretty much a self-contained universe when a JLA team-up isn't required, even during big stories like Knightfall. Batman most often works with Robin to fight the Joker, not with Superman to fight Darkseid.

My instinctive response (as a longtime Bat-fan but only a very casual reader of a few DD stories) would be that DD is at its core far grittier than Batman, for reasons you elaborated on.

QuoteDon't get me wrong, I think what Nolan did with his trilogy was fantastic. But he did strip away numerous aspects of the mythology to make the material conform to his vision. And in the context of his films, it worked. But in the case of Daredevil there really aren't that many deviations from the comics. The only two major changes were the toning down of Owlsley and the death of a certain main character. Other than that, it's pretty much spot on with the source material.

Yes. You take away from Batman to make him "realistic", while for DareDevil it's almost "as is".

As for a comparison between this show and the movies, there are things with the Batman movies (production values and production design, big name stars, epic set-pieces and music etc.) that are totally beyond not only the reach (budget), but the aims of a series like DareDevil. The Batman movies are epic in size and, as you say, a distillation of many versions (1989 in particular is more like a celebration of Batman than a Batman story); DareDevil is more lowkey and has the room to go deeper into the characters.

Quote from: Nycteris on Fri, 26 Feb  2016, 14:08
Gotham (in the comics) is also pretty much a self-contained universe when a JLA team-up isn't required, even during big stories like Knightfall. Batman most often works with Robin to fight the Joker, not with Superman to fight Darkseid.

True. Another point to be made is that Daredevil has the advantage of piggybacking off previous MCU productions. Daredevil's universe has already been established as a world that includes characters as fantastical as Thanos and the Hulk. They can make offhand references to things like that in Daredevil without necessarily having to show them, because the audience already knows they exist in this universe. If they choose to mention them, they have the luxury of doing so.

But Nolan had to construct an entire universe from the ground up. And the only way we'd know if certain things existed in that universe was if we were explicitly shown them. Showing the Hulk in Daredevil would undermine the realistic atmosphere, and showing Man-Bat in The Dark Knight would have a similar effect. Ultimately Nolan was adapting Batman, not the entire DC Universe. The makers of Daredevil are adapting Daredevil, but they've got the pre-existing landscape of the Marvel Cinematic Universe to use as a sandbox. They have a clear advantage in that regard. And as you say, the Daredevil comics are inherently grittier than the Batman comics anyway, so it's simply a matter of reigning in the fantasy of the MCU until the shoe fits.

This opens up another interesting question, which is when/how should Daredevil interact with the rest of the MCU? Should other characters, such as Tom Holland's Spider-Man, guest appear in Daredevil? Or should Daredevil himself appear in some of the theatrical films? Personally I'd love to see Charlie Cox's Daredevil show up in the Infinity War films, but I'm less enthusiastic about other characters appearing in Daredevil's show. I don't mind some of the darker R-rated Marvel characters appearing (e.g. Punisher, Luke Cage, Blade), but I'd prefer to keep the lighter characters at a distance. Spider-Man's a tricky situation as he's frequently interacted with Daredevil in the comics. If they were to meet in the MCU, I'd rather have Cox appear as Matt Murdock in the Spider-Man movies than have Holland show up in Daredevil. That way Daredevil could venture further afield in the MCU without compromising the realistic tone of his own TV series.

I'd be interested to hear what other people think about this. Should the Netflix Marvel characters mingle with the theatrical heroes, or should they keep to their own corner of the MCU?

SN, I'm curious, do you think the series could've pulled off doing the yellow suit in Season 1?

I'm not sure about that. The yellow suit's synonymous with the Stan Lee era. And while I enjoy reading the Masterworks collections for historical reasons, I can't say they really gel tonally with the darker comics that came later on. If they were ever to do a lighter, more family-friendly version of Daredevil based on the Stan Lee or Mark Waid runs – maybe an animated series for kids – then the yellow outfit would be the way to go. But the colour yellow doesn't really have the same symbolic value as the red suit carries. Red just fits in better with the devil motif: hellfire, anger, blood, etc. I also think that generally speaking unicoloured schemes work better for darker superheroes than multicoloured costumes. Hence why Batman usually just wears black in the movies.

The one way I could see them referencing the yellow suit would be during the flashback scene in episode 10, the one where he fights the abusive father at the train yard. Maybe in that scene he could've worn a yellow and black hoodie instead of a plain black one. Something like this:

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flf.hatworld.com%2Fhwl%3Fset%3Dsku%255B20705220%255D%2Cc%255B2%255D%2Cw%255B500%255D%2Ch%255B375%255D%26amp%3Bload%3Durl%255Bfile%3Aproduct%255D&hash=ff7c9ba91da714be8de1a0c5ddd4294ba9c24321)
(https://cdnb.lystit.com/photos/6b2f-2015/04/19/majestic-blackgold-mens-pittsburgh-pirates-hoodie-black-product-1-051869280-normal.jpeg)

In the comics, the only reason he had the yellow suit to begin with was because he made it himself out of his dad's old boxing robe. But in the TV show he tells Foggy he assembled his black costume from gear he bought on the internet, and obviously Potter made the red suit for him with the devil motif in mind. So I can't see any other way they could've fit the yellow suit into the mythology.

But to be honest, I was just thrilled they included the black prototype outfit and the red devil-horned suit. They were the priority for me. It's funny to think that this time last year we weren't even sure we'd be getting the red suit. I can't say I really missed the yellow costume, but I would've been very disappointed if they'd balked at including the red version.

What's your take? Could they have incorporated the yellow costume, and if so how would you have done it?

Without changing anything major about the series, the yellow and black hoodie probably would've been the way to go for the flashback.

With more creative license, I wouldn't have minded seeing a version of it if they had covered him going after his dad's killers, with him kinda poetically wearing the costume made from his dad's boxing clothes. (I wonder if they're going to cover that in flashbacks in Season 2. I was kinda hoping we'd see him go after the Fixer and his men, since we haven't really seen an adaptation of that part of the origin).

It would've been a weird transition to go from the yellow suit to the black Frank Miller type suit in the show's chronology, though. Unless you replace the black suit with the yellow suit for most of the series, but it probably would've been an odd look for the current show and the transition from yellow devil suit to red devil suit just wouldn't have been as powerful 'cause it'd just seem like he changed colors.

So, I agree with you, SN. The yellow suit would've been more of a fit for a lighter toned show. If they were going for more of a retro Agent Carter type feel, the first season could've drawn more from the original run of comics and Loeb and Sale's Daredevil Yellow. But since they were going for capturing more of the Frank Miller run, it was probably for the best.

The Fixer's fate is definitely an unresolved plot point they could revisit. It's not essential, but it might make for an interesting development in a future episode. They got around it in the 2003 film by pulling a Batman 89 twist and making Kingpin the enforcer who killed Jack. So by beating Fisk, Daredevil effectively avenged his father. But as far as the MCU goes, the Fixer's still out there somewhere. Unless Daredevil already got to him...

I think we will be seeing more flashbacks in future episodes. It looks like season 2's going to introduce Maggie, so they'll probably show us what happened with her and Jack. And Joe Quesada's Daredevil: Father put an interesting and disturbing twist on the accident that blinded Matt as a kid. I won't say what it is, as it's a pretty cool payoff at the end of the book. But suffice it to say it's another aspect of Daredevil's back story they could potentially revisit.

Here are a few observations about the two trailers. Firstly, the most obvious one – the scene adapted from Welcome Back, Frank (2000).


Although Daredevil is unarmed in that pic, there are other clips where he clearly has a gun taped to his right hand and a chain attached to his left wrist, just like in the comic.


The shot of the rosary in the first trailer seems to hint at Maggie making an appearance. Look in the background of the shot and you can see a nun leaning forward. This is likely adapting the scene in Born Again where Maggie leans over Matt to kiss him on the forehead.


A nun can also be seen standing with her back to us in the lower left corner of the season 2 poster, just next to the 'D'. Again, this is probably Maggie.


And in the second trailer we get a glimpse of Elektra's final costume, seen from behind at the 1:40 mark. It looks similar to her comic book outfit only with the arms and legs covered, which makes sense considering this was filmed in the dead of winter.


Less than three weeks to go!  ;D

A little over a month ago, Charlie Cox said in an interview that even if Daredevil were to appear in Avengers: Infinity War, he reckons it doesn't necessarily mean he'll get to reprise the role, and says the Marvel-based Netflix shows and the MCU are two separate things.

https://youtu.be/ZcObRZ2aZhM

If he is correct, and Daredevil gets recast by someone else, that would only mean to me that those in charge of the MCU don't want the more violent Netflix shows to be associated with the movies. This is despite the shows occasionally making references to the Avengers, particularly the first movie.

I do think daredevil lends itself more to the grounded approach. Not that Batman can't be done grounded but with Waynetech and Bruce Wayne's many toys, it's easy to go unrealistic with the technology. Daredevil relies on an alternate sensatory system. He does have the 'gifts' a typical blind person would have. The debate is whether said gifts are too heavily enhanced or it merely reflects how intelligent and perceptive Matt Murdock is.  I would argue that daredevil's villains are more grounded than some of batman's villains (ie clayface, Mr. Freeze, Killer Crock).

It seems marvel's standpoint is that the MCU is canon for the shows but not the other way around. It's likely if any show ends up canon it will be agents of shield and none of the phase two films have made reference. I kind of get why they would do that; the films are pre requisite for other films, it's hard to expect the viewers to also follow all the TV shows as well.

Quote from: riddler on Tue,  1 Mar  2016, 17:47I do think daredevil lends itself more to the grounded approach. Not that Batman can't be done grounded but with Waynetech and Bruce Wayne's many toys, it's easy to go unrealistic with the technology. Daredevil relies on an alternate sensatory system. He does have the 'gifts' a typical blind person would have. The debate is whether said gifts are too heavily enhanced or it merely reflects how intelligent and perceptive Matt Murdock is.  I would argue that daredevil's villains are more grounded than some of batman's villains (ie clayface, Mr. Freeze, Killer Crock).

While that's generally true, Daredevil does nevertheless have some fairly monstrous foes in his gallery of rogues. Bullseye, Mr. Fear, Eric Slaughter, Kingpin, Ox & the Enforcers, Punisher, Elektra, Matador, Gladiator, Bullet, Lady Bullseye, Nuke, the WiIdboys, Jester, Ammo, Echo and maybe Typhoid Mary could all be depicted fairly realistically without compromising much (if any) of their comic book accuracy.

Other characters are trickier: Purple Man, Death-Stalker, Mr. Hyde, Stilt-Man, the Owl, Hellspawn, Bushwacker, Leap-Frog, Mephisto and Blackheart would all require substantial FX work if portrayed accurately. Of course Mr. Hyde already exists in the MCU, having appeared as a recurring villain in season 2 of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. played by Kyle "How's Annie?" MacLachlan. And I thought they did a pretty decent job with him.


Purple Man was the central antagonist in Jessica Jones season 1, but I felt they heavily diluted the character to the point where he only partially resembled the version from the comics. I wasn't mad on how they handled Nuke either.

Generally they're better off sticking with the more grounded villains on television, though I'd love it if they did a season where they delved into the more explicitly supernatural aspects of the mythos. Maybe do a Lone Stranger/Daredevil: Reborn type of story where Matt leaves New York and goes wandering in an act of penance, haunted along the way by the forces of Mephisto and his son Blackheart. If they are indeed adapting Shadowland for The Defenders miniseries, then this might be a suitable plotline to follow it up with in Daredevil season 3.

Some of my favourite Daredevil stories are the ones that explore the darker aspects of the devil motif, delving into themes of the occult, the supernatural and the demonological side of Catholicism. Those kind of stories have a gothic horror edge to them that blends brilliantly with the dark urban atmosphere of Hell's Kitchen; sort of like The Crow meets The Exorcist. It'd be great to see that area of the Daredevil mythos translated into live action.

Quote from: riddler on Tue,  1 Mar  2016, 17:47It seems marvel's standpoint is that the MCU is canon for the shows but not the other way around. It's likely if any show ends up canon it will be agents of shield and none of the phase two films have made reference. I kind of get why they would do that; the films are pre requisite for other films, it's hard to expect the viewers to also follow all the TV shows as well.

True. By my reckoning, the MCU's television content currently consists of around 100 hours worth of footage, and that's not counting the upcoming Luke Cage series or any of the movies. I expect most people only watch parts of it. But I guess most fans don't read every single issue of every Marvel comic either. The scale of the MCU is one of the things I find so impressive about it. Eventually it will reach the point where no one can keep up with the whole thing, so they just pick their favourite characters to follow. Just like we all do with the comics.

While Marvel's film and TV divisions have so far functioned independent of one another's purview, I'm confident they will eventually overlap. The TV actors have a clause in their contract stipulating movie appearances should their characters show up on the big screen. And there was a rumour circulating a while back that the Infinity War movies were intended to serve as a juncture where all MCU content would converge. In light of the Russo brothers' recent claim that Infinity War would feature 68 distinct characters, it's not hard to image Daredevil might be one of them.

That said, Marvel did create different versions of Daredevil and Jessica Jones for the LEGO Avengers game rather than use the MCU versions. I get that they didn't want to reference R-rated content from TV-MA shows in a kid's game. But when the time comes, I doubt they'll shirk at including the real versions in the movies. Not when the Netflix shows have received such a positive response from critics and fans.

2 weeks today!

Billboards in Toronto give us our first glimpse of the Punisher with his skull emblem (and a minigun!), as well as a clearer look at Elektra's costume.


I'm predicting a 99.9% probability this will be the best superhero adaptation of 2016, and by a significant margin to boot.

10 days to go!  ;D

EDIT: An even better look at the skull emblem.

Final trailer.


3 days to go.

2 days to go.

1 day to go. ;D

Fantastic feature, SN:
http://www.batman-online.com/features/2016/3/17/batman-to-hells-kitchen-and-back-the-daredevil-connection

I'm pretty packed so it'll probably take me awhile to get to Season 2 of the show, but I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks, bud. I'm glad someone else found the subject interesting besides me.

I've begun binge watching season 2 and am presently on episode 6. So far, I think it's amazing. I thought the first two episodes weren't quite as strong as the first two episodes of season one, but it really picks up in episode 3. I don't want to say anything more at this stage, what with spoilers and all, but I'm really loving it so far. And I've listed around 10 pages of comic references based on the first 5 episodes alone.

One thing I will say is that they've really pushed the R-rated content a lot more in this season. Some of the gore ventures into hard R territory, and I think I'm right in saying this is the first MCU production to contain f-bombs. I'll look forward to discussing it in more depth when we've all finished it - which in my case should be sometime tomorrow or Sunday.

Well I finished season 2 earlier today and... just wow. I didn't think they could top season 1, but apparently I was wrong. In my opinion, this is without a shadow of a doubt the best serious superhero adaptation I've ever seen. There are some wonderful lighter superhero productions from the past, such as Batman 66 and Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. But as far as the darker adaptations go, this one outshines them all. I know most people will disagree with me on this point, and that I'm probably overhyping it, but for me it really is that good. My only criticism is I've now got to wait another year until the next season.  :'(

A few spoiler-free thoughts on season 2.

The cast is uniformly excellent. Charlie Cox continues to prove himself the definitive live action Daredevil and is perfect in the role. Jon Bernthal cannot be praised highly enough - he slays it as the Punisher. Likewise for Elodie Yung as Elektra. It was nice to see some quality guest stars appear too, including a certain Lex Luthor voice actor. Every supporting character is given their own arc, yet Daredevil himself is never overshadowed. He remains at the centre of the series and has an emotional investment in everything that's happening, with his own personal narrative serving as a throughline which connects all the other characters' arcs. It's masterfully structured and covers about three times as much plot as the first season. A common criticism of season 1 was that the pacing slowed around episode 10 and the dramatic impetus waned as a result. Trust me when I say this does not happen in season 2. Quite the opposite in fact. The weakest episodes in this season are probably the first two, and after that it just gets better and better.

The writing, acting, fight choreography, cinematography, music – everything is top notch. The Netflix format is perfect for comic book adaptations and allows for far greater depth of character and density of plot than you'd ever find in a film or network TV show. A good example of this is a scene in one of the early episodes where the Punisher shares a moving and deeply personal story with Daredevil. It's beautifully written and acted. And owing to the freedom afforded by the flexible runtime and lack of commercial breaks, the whole monologue is allowed to play out at its own deliberate pace. It's a scene that tells you so much about this character and his motivations, yet I doubt you'd ever get a scene quite like it in a feature film. I wish every superhero could get this kind of quality treatment.

Another advantage of the Netflix format is the TV-MA rating and the more adult content it permits. I said in my previous post that some of the gore ventures into hard R territory. Having seen the rest of the season, I can confirm this statement was truer than I realised. The first season was violent enough and earned a '15' certificate here in the UK (the same rating as films like Alien, Die Hard and the original Total Recall). But the second season contains even stronger violence and carries an '18' certificate (the same rating as films like Dawn of the Dead, Saw and Dredd). Obviously excessive violence isn't always a good thing, particularly in the case of superhero productions where it often comes across as adolescent. And I appreciate that some viewers will find this aspect of the series off-putting. But in the case of Daredevil, it feels justified and true to the source material. Nothing is toned down. This show has guts, and it's willing to spill them in graphic detail.

I've also got to comment on the updated Daredevil suit. Words cannot express how much I love this costume. Daredevil's got one of the most difficult outfits to translate into live action, largely on account of its simplicity. But I feel they've really nailed it this season, ironing out the creases from the season 1 suit and tweaking it to the point of perfection. In the past we've seen superhero costumes which look beautiful but offer lousy mobility, and we've seen others that offer great functionality but at the expense of aesthetic. This costume, however, looks great while still offering a full range of mobility. Daredevil pulls off the same kind of gravity-defying martial arts moves he displayed in season 1. The armoured suit doesn't seem to hinder him in the slightest. It also helps that Charlie Cox appears to have gained some extra muscle in between seasons and fills out the costume better than ever.




As with the first season, it's also very faithful to the comics. Elektra's back story has undergone one or two changes, but her character and story arc are very much preserved intact. Nothing feels diluted. In fact I'd say it has more of a comic book feel than the first season, yet they've somehow managed to achieve this without compromising the gritty, realistic tone. I've got around 25 pages of comic references noted in shorthand, though I think I'll hold off with the final analysis for a while; partly to give other people a chance to watch it, but also because I want to re-watch it myself at least a couple more times to make sure I didn't miss anything. But suffice it to say fans of Daredevil, Punisher and Elektra should all be satisfied with how the series handles the source material.

There's so much more I want to say about this season, and my ideas for where I think they'll go in season 3, but for now I'll wait until more people have seen it. Based on my initial viewing, I'd rate it a 9.5/10. I think that's the highest rating I've ever given anything on this site, and it might change after repeated viewings. But it's the score I'm sticking with for the time being. I feel like I've just watched the longest and best superhero movie ever made, and I can't recommend it highly enough.

Now I''m crossing my fingers that they announce season 3 before The Defenders miniseries. Time to reset the hype clock: 1 year to go...

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 19 Mar  2016, 00:23
Thanks, bud. I'm glad someone else found the subject interesting besides me.

I also read it back when it was first shared with the FB page. A fascinating read, as always, and I learned a lot of interesting things I didn't know.

I'm currently on episode 10, I'm sad that it's only three episodes to go. It's really the best live action comic book series ever - Arrow and Flash can't escape their CW-ness (I've seen this description elsewhere, and I feel it's apt) while Gotham... I love it but Gotham is a different kind of beast and certainly nowhere near as serious and well thought out as DD (but no, Nemesis, it's not soapy, leave the soap opera content to CW! )

I'll even go as far to say that the two seasons of DareDevil are exactly what Nolanites *think* that TDK is, but in reality isn't.

Quote
The writing, acting, fight choreography, cinematography, music – everything is top notch. The Netflix format is perfect for comic book adaptations and allows for far greater depth of character and density of plot than you'd ever find in a film or network TV show. A good example of this is a scene in one of the early episodes where the Punisher shares a moving and deeply personal story with Daredevil. It's beautifully written and acted. And owing to the freedom afforded by the flexible runtime and lack of commercial breaks, the whole monologue is allowed to play out at its own deliberate pace. It's a scene that tells you so much about this character and his motivations, yet I doubt you'd ever get a scene quite like it in a feature film. I wish every superhero could get this kind of quality treatment.

What about the wise lack of music in key moments? IMO it adds to realism and raw emotion, avoiding schmaltz. In the scene you describe there isn't any soft piano/ manipulative chords etc. which are usually added to "character scenes" in lesser movies and shows. It's just Bernthal's voice. Music appears only towards the end, and very subtly, very low volume. The show is very spartan in the use of incidental music - outside of the opening credits, there's very few moments where it swells, and it's only when it really matters.

Gore? Nothing too excessive or gratuitous IMO (mind you, I haven't seen 11-13 yet as I write this so there might be worse things than bullets on the face and bludgeoned skulls).

As for the fights, that staircase fight is better than 90% of fights seen in most comic book films, put together.

I would have many more to comment on, but better keep it brief - it will be very interesting to read your spoiler-filled reviews and comic-to-screen analysis.

Quote from: Nycteris on Tue, 22 Mar  2016, 22:24I also read it back when it was first shared with the FB page. A fascinating read, as always, and I learned a lot of interesting things I didn't know.

I'm glad you liked it. And I appreciate the positive feedback. :) I'm also delighted to hear you're enjoying the series so much. It really is excellent and more people on this site should see it.

It's hilarious to think there were fans complaining in 2014 when Marvel announced Daredevil was getting a TV show instead of a movie. If they'd gone with the cinematic approach, we would've gotten a 2 hour PG-13 film once every three or four years. Instead we're getting 13 hours of practically unrestricted top-quality content every year. Come to think of it, season 1 debuted on April 10th 2015. Which means we've had two whole seasons – 26 episodes – in less than a year!

Quote from: Nycteris on Tue, 22 Mar  2016, 22:24I'm currently on episode 10, I'm sad that it's only three episodes to go. It's really the best live action comic book series ever - Arrow and Flash can't escape their CW-ness (I've seen this description elsewhere, and I feel it's apt) while Gotham... I love it but Gotham is a different kind of beast and certainly nowhere near as serious and well thought out as DD (but no, Nemesis, it's not soapy, leave the soap opera content to CW! )

Agreed on all counts. I'm glad DC has pulled their finger out when it comes to their television output, but sometimes it feels like they're going for quantity over quality. I've enjoyed what I've seen of The Flash, but it's certainly nowhere near the standard of quality that Marvel's putting out in their Netflix shows. Marvel's been dominating the movies for some time, and now they're taking the lead on television too.

Quote from: Nycteris on Tue, 22 Mar  2016, 22:24I'll even go as far to say that the two seasons of DareDevil are exactly what Nolanites *think* that TDK is, but in reality isn't.

True. And that's not a dig at Nolan, I enjoy his films a lot. But IMO Daredevil's taken the genre to another level entirely.

It's funny how when Nolan's Batman films debuted, some fans claimed the serious tone made the Burton Batman seem closer to the sixties TV show. Now Daredevil comes along with a tone that's so dark and adult it makes Batman Begins seem tonally closer to the Joel Schumacher Batman.


Again, not a dig at Nolan. Just a reflection on how the passage of time changes our perceptions.

Quote from: Nycteris on Tue, 22 Mar  2016, 22:24What about the wise lack of music in key moments? IMO it adds to realism and raw emotion, avoiding schmaltz. In the scene you describe there isn't any soft piano/ manipulative chords etc. which are usually added to "character scenes" in lesser movies and shows. It's just Bernthal's voice. Music appears only towards the end, and very subtly, very low volume. The show is very spartan in the use of incidental music - outside of the opening credits, there's very few moments where it swells, and it's only when it really matters.

That's a great observation. I like John Paesano's score a lot, but I hadn't really thought about its application in scenes like the one you highlighted until now. But looking back on it, you're right. It ties in with my point about pacing. I've seen comments from some viewers who think that monologue went on too long. But I found the duration was one of the things that made it seem so raw and natural. The absence of music enhanced that. If they'd added some sentimental melody in the background it would've taken the viewer out of the scene and drawn attention to its length. Smart creative choice by Paesano.

There's another powerful scene in the final episode. I don't want to spoil it in case you haven't seen it yet, but it's a conversation between two characters immediately prior to the final showdown, where they discuss what the future may have in store. There is music during this scene, but it's a subtle, quiet ambient piece playing softly in the background. It beautifully compliments the emotionality of the scene without clumsily drawing attention to it. The drama comes from the writing and acting; the music merely serves to enhance that, not intrude upon it.

Quote from: Nycteris on Tue, 22 Mar  2016, 22:24Gore? Nothing too excessive or gratuitous IMO (mind you, I haven't seen 11-13 yet as I write this so there might be worse things than bullets on the face and bludgeoned skulls).

As for the fights, that staircase fight is better than 90% of fights seen in most comic book films, put together.

That fight was insane. In general, this show has the best superhero fight scenes I've ever come across. Practical stunt work, excellent and varied choreography, clearly shot and edited, with some nice touches of humour thrown in. Perfection. I think this particular fight was a tribute to Tony Jaa's restaurant skirmish in Tom yum goong (2005). And just when you think it's over, those three bruisers show up to provide an end-of-stage boss fight.


I love the grin Matt gives when he pulls the trigger at the beginning. A nice nod to Frank Miller's cover art for the 2nd issue of his original Daredevil/Punisher crossover.


And how about Frank's fight scene from episode 9? Yes, that one. Makes me wish Marvel would develop a proper Daredevil videogame. Whenever that topic comes up, people always crack the obvious jokes about it being a 1st person shooter with a black screen. But seriously, they could make such a good game out of this property. I imagine it being a cross between Prince of Persia and the Batman Arkham series.

Quote from: Nycteris on Tue, 22 Mar  2016, 22:24I would have many more to comment on, but better keep it brief - it will be very interesting to read your spoiler-filled reviews and comic-to-screen analysis.

I'm looking forward to writing that analysis up. There are so many things taken from the comics, it's going to be huge. And I hope you'll post your final score when you've finished the last 3 episodes.

One other thing I'd like to mention is how impressed I was by the way they captured Punisher's coldblooded machine-like persona without making him one-dimensional. That's a pitfall some of the previous adaptations stumbled into. But Bernthal conveyed the damaged humanity beneath the cold exterior with tremendous depth, and he did it without compromising the character's ruthlessness. There were a few points where I thought they might have Frank back down and show mercy, but it never happened.  He's clearly the Punisher through and through and is completely beyond redemption. And that's how the character should be portrayed.

But where should he appear next? Should he return in the next season of Daredevil, or should he get his own spin-off series? How about an R-rated movie developed as a feature-length Netflix original? The character's too good to waste. They've got to bring him back somehow.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 23 Mar  2016, 22:28
I'm glad you liked it. And I appreciate the positive feedback. :) I'm also delighted to hear you're enjoying the series so much. It really is excellent and more people on this site should see it.

It's hilarious to think there were fans complaining in 2014 when Marvel announced Daredevil was getting a TV show instead of a movie. If they'd gone with the cinematic approach, we would've gotten a 2 hour PG-13 film once every three or four years. Instead we're getting 13 hours of practically unrestricted top-quality content every year. Come to think of it, season 1 debuted on April 10th 2015. Which means we've had two whole seasons – 26 episodes – in less than a year!

It's really the best. What I loved the most, besides the top quality across the board, is how it feels like two movies presented in chapters, it's not really a TV show. Or maybe a comic book mini-series presented in live action, with each episode being an "issue", whichever one prefers.

That's a long discussion and I'm sure other people have analyzed better than I could the advantages this format has over movies, but it would be ideal for direct adaptations of comic mini-series like Long Halloween.

Quote from: Nycteris on Tue, 22 Mar  2016, 22:24
Agreed on all counts. I'm glad DC has pulled their finger out when it comes to their television output, but sometimes it feels like they're going for quantity over quality. I've enjoyed what I've seen of The Flash, but it's certainly nowhere near the standard of quality that Marvel's putting out in their Netflix shows. Marvel's been dominating the movies for some time, and now they're taking the lead on television too.

I insist they do something interesting with Gotham (they got the visual look and the atmosphere so right), it works as an "elsewords" of sorts, but I agree. DD is a different class of live action superhero.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 23 Mar  2016, 22:28

Quote from: Nycteris on Tue, 22 Mar  2016, 22:24I'll even go as far to say that the two seasons of DareDevil are exactly what Nolanites *think* that TDK is, but in reality isn't.

True. And that's not a dig at Nolan, I enjoy his films a lot. But IMO Daredevil's taken the genre to another level entirely.

It's funny how when Nolan's Batman films debuted, some fans claimed the serious tone made the Burton Batman seem closer to the sixties TV show. Now Daredevil comes along with a tone that's so dark and adult it makes Batman Begins seem tonally closer to the Joel Schumacher Batman.

True for some fans, but my comment had more to do with how overrated Nolan's second film is (TDK is the thing, this entry is really the reason the entire trilogy is put on that pedestal, isn't it?), how it's perceived as so "deep" (it's not any deeper than any good comic book film that came before or after) and how these fans claimed B'89 was "campy cartoon" next to it (well, it isn't).

(apologies as I may veer a little, but it's something I have strong feelings about)

I wouldn't say any of the non-Schumacher Batman films is "Batman Forever" next to DD tone-wise - Keaton and Bale are still dark and tortured men, not lighthearted adventurers like Adam West. Jack's Joker isn't a campy prankster, he kills even his own henchmen. The '89 movie is fantastical, but not less "serious" (as a comic book adaptation) because of it; BB's League of Shadows and The Hand are both basically "comic book ninjas".

The reason DD is so great IMO isn't just that it's more "serious" (it's the most serious adaptation featuring a costumed character, yes, but still has its jokes, its quips, its comic book trappings, its comic book villains - The Hand is an army of mystical ninjas) but because its makers love the material and they have the artistic freedom (and the room, at 13 hours per "movie") to develop the characters and story at their own pace and make the audience care about them. They're not limited by feature film or TV show structure, and they make the most of it.

It's also not limited by PG-13. In other cases an R-Rating doesn't automatically mean "adult" but "adolescent" (it's usually teens who love movie gore for its own sake, not adults - productions that cater too much on blood for its own sake actually cater to teens), but in this case its restrained, and a necessary element that adds gravitas.

QuoteThat's a great observation. I like John Paesano's score a lot, but I hadn't really thought about its application in scenes like the one you highlighted until now. But looking back on it, you're right. It ties in with my point about pacing. I've seen comments from some viewers who think that monologue went on too long. But I found the duration was one of the things that made it seem so raw and natural. The absence of music enhanced that. If they'd added some sentimental melody in the background it would've taken the viewer out of the scene and drawn attention to its length. Smart creative choice by Paesano.

There's another powerful scene in the final episode. I don't want to spoil it in case you haven't seen it yet, but it's a conversation between two characters immediately prior to the final showdown, where they discuss what the future may have in store. There is music during this scene, but it's a subtle, quiet ambient piece playing softly in the background. It beautifully compliments the emotionality of the scene without clumsily drawing attention to it. The drama comes from the writing and acting; the music merely serves to enhance that, not intrude upon it.

Yes totally agree, and this subtle use is also what makes it really shine in other more visual moments, like immediately after when "Red" stands on a piece of Gothic architecture, overlooking the police taking Castle into custody.

As for the climax, fantastic. I love these lengthy exhanges which as you say are not limited by pace. How the music builds as they go behind that door, fantastic. And then Castle on the rooftop, everything about this sequence was an extended geek-out moment.

QuoteThat fight was insane. In general, this show has the best superhero fight scenes I've ever come across. Practical stunt work, excellent and varied choreography, clearly shot and edited, with some nice touches of humour thrown in. Perfection. I think this particular fight was a tribute to Tony Jaa's restaurant skirmish in Tom yum goong (2005). And just when you think it's over, those three bruisers show up to provide an end-of-stage boss fight.

I love the grin Matt gives when he pulls the trigger at the beginning. A nice nod to Frank Miller's cover art for the 2nd issue of his original Daredevil/Punisher crossover.

And how about Frank's fight scene from episode 9? Yes, that one. Makes me wish Marvel would develop a proper Daredevil videogame. Whenever that topic comes up, people always crack the obvious jokes about it being a 1st person shooter with a black screen. But seriously, they could make such a good game out of this property. I imagine it being a cross between Prince of Persia and the Batman Arkham series.

Yes, and that fight scene with the Punisher. And these co-op sections with Electra. Overall each fight scene is fantastic. This is what they should have done with Batman.

DD is the perfect character for a game - acrobatic and martial arts - Prince of Persia and Arkham are ideal models. A little bit of Infamous too. They COULD have a few challenging first person sections where the visual is limited and the player sees what DD "sees", through his senses, like they briefly showed in series 1.

QuoteI'm looking forward to writing that analysis up. There are so many things taken from the comics, it's going to be huge. And I hope you'll post your final score when you've finished the last 3 episodes.

One other thing I'd like to mention is how impressed I was by the way they captured Punisher's coldblooded machine-like persona without making him one-dimensional. That's a pitfall some of the previous adaptations stumbled into. But Bernthal conveyed the damaged humanity beneath the cold exterior with tremendous depth, and he did it without compromising the character's ruthlessness. There were a few points where I thought they might have Frank back down and show mercy, but it never happened.  He's clearly the Punisher through and through and is completely beyond redemption. And that's how the character should be portrayed.

But where should he appear next? Should he return in the next season of Daredevil, or should he get his own spin-off series? How about an R-rated movie developed as a feature-length Netflix original? The character's too good to waste. They've got to bring him back somehow.

I didn't mention Punisher but in some way this was my main draw when I saw the first Series 1 trailers and previews. Back then my familiarity with DD came from his interactions with Castle, this is what I knew of him.

Yes, they finally got him right. Not to take away from previous actors (the problem with those movies wasn't casting the main character - Thomas Jane especially had the potential to be great - that "laundry" short proves it) but Bernthal IS the Punisher.

Looking back, DD was the best way to introduce him, not his own live action series. Despite the darkness, DD is an inherently good guy (Charlie Cox makes him so likeable too) and his story has hope, the Punisher is merciless, a borderline villain protagonist, his story is bleak and hopeless, there can be only one final outcome. Matt Murdock and Karen Page humanize him.

I think he should be around in DD (if they do a particular story involving prison, he MUST be present anyway), but also receive his own series. It's obvious that Garth Ennis is one of their main influences, there are stories to be told even outside NY and Hell's Kitchen.

Do you also think his introduction in the hospital scene was a homage to The Terminator?

As someone who thoroughly enjoyed the first season, I got around to finishing watching Season 2 of Daredevil last week. My verdict is rather mixed, unfortunately. Half of this season is great, the other half I thought was forgettable.

I won't give spoilers away, but I'll begin with what I liked. The Daredevil-Punisher conflict is top notch quality. Unlike a lot of moral conflicts in comics and films which feel forced and contrived, I believe this show best uses this dramatic tension to demonstrate the differences between the two vigilantes perfectly.

What I liked about this drama is you can understand where both guys are coming from. You can sympathise with Matt Murdock's point of view about everybody deserving a second chance because let's face it, up until now his brand of justice worked. He was successful in keeping Hell's Kitchen safe without resorting to lethal force. Most importantly however, Murdock makes a good point that taking such an extreme course of action against any criminal would only destroy their own families and repeat the same cycle of devastation that ruined Frank Castle's life. But then there's Castle's own point of view. While no rational person can approve his extreme method of going after a crook in front of innocent bystanders nearby, you can see the damage that criminals have done to his family and his life, and sees those who clearly have no regard for human life nor the intention to rehabilitate must be eliminated to keep the city. It's a complicated conflict that lives up to its potential as compelling drama, and I for one commend the show for adapting it successfully. The Castle storyline that continued on afterwards is brilliant and sets his path into becoming the Punisher perfectly.

Now here is the part that I didn't like: the Hand and Elektra storyline. I won't lie, it didn't get my attention like the Frank Castle plot did, and I didn't understand what the Hand were specifically trying to accomplish. I found Elektra a little bit annoying because she was shifting between a carefree smartass and a bloodthirsty killer. Is that this criticism fair though? Admittedly, I'm not familiar with Daredevil comics, and maybe it's one of those things I'll need to watch again to get a better understanding. But as I watched this for the first time, I didn't feel the Hand's motivations were well conveyed. The main villain didn't make the same impression as Wilson Fisk did for me. Which is kind of understandable, because Vincent D'Onofrio set a very high bar in that area.

So yeah, I have to say that the first season is still better for me. I've watched a review from a fan on YouTube that kinda shared my opinion: first four episodes of the season is some of the best that the show has to offer, except this guy compared everything else afterwards to Arrow's disastrous third season. I would NOT go that far, but Daredevil Season 2 didn't quite live up to the quality of Season 1 for me. It doesn't matter too much though, the show can still bounce back with a superior third season.

Love this series! I'll read the new posts after I finish off season 2.

I'd just like to state for the billionth time how insanely beautiful the fight choreography is in this show. A perfect balance of speed, grace and brutality.


Apparently they don't have a lot of time to choreograph and rehearse the fights. Which makes the end results all the more impressive.

"My name is Matt Murdock. An accident with a chemical truck took my sight but enhanced my other senses. Now I protect Hell's Kitchen as Daredevil."

If Daredevil was a CW show, every episode would begin with a voiceover just like this. ^

Hot Toys has announced a new line of 1/6 scale Daredevil figures based on the Netflix show:

QuoteJustice is blind.

We are thrilled to officially announce today, Hot Toys 's highly detailed and amazing collectibles based on the highly-popular Netflix Original series Marvel's Daredevil are coming real soon!

Daredevil fans stay tuned. It's time to get ready for the Man Without Fear and the deadly vigilante Punisher!

http://www.hottoys.com.hk/news.php?newsID=246

;D

Finally, a Blu-ray release date has been announced for the first season. Blu-ray, DVD and special steelbook editions will be available in the UK from October 3rd. Just in time for my birthday. :) No word yet on the North American release date, though presumably it'll be around the same time.

ABOUT DAMN TIME!!!!

>:(

:)

So far this show is everything I've ever wanted from Daredevil in live action. Matt Murdock is avowedly Catholic but the extremes are avoided. His religion isn't window-dressing, like it was in the movie. And it isn't so all-consuming that the story gets practically lost, as happened with Kevin Smith's "Guardian Devil" story.

In season 1 the priest gives the most articulate, nuanced understanding of the Devil and the nature of evil that I've ever seen a Hollywood production ever do. I'm friends with total theology nerds and they ate that up with a spoon. Incredible writing!

Karen can easily grow into, ahem, what she became in the comics. But she doesn't absolutely have to go in that direction. The showrunners have the flexibility to give her a different fate if they want to.

Foggy isn't presented as a clueless oaf like he was in the movie and occasionally has been in the comics. In many ways, he's the soul of Nelson & Murdock. And he's a lot sharper than he gets credit for too. The show respects that. He discovered Matt's secret identity out of genuine concern for his friend's well being. His actions, frustrations, successes, failures and conflicts derive mostly from how big his heart is.

Matt Murdock is frequently written as a man who isn't as evil as his heart wants him to be... but isn't as virtuous as his soul would like. The push and pull creates a fascinating internal conflict. He wants to be better than he is while at the same time he isn't as bad as he'd like to be.

Amazing show. Season 2 was even better than the first, which I wasn't originally expecting considering Marvel's track record up to now with sequels and followups.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  5 Jul  2016, 04:02
Matt Murdock is frequently written as a man who isn't as evil as his heart wants him to be... but isn't as virtuous as his soul would like. The push and pull creates a fascinating internal conflict. He wants to be better than he is while at the same time he isn't as bad as he'd like to be.

I may get lynched for saying this, but I've always thought Matt Murdock was a more complex, layered and interesting character than Bruce Wayne. Wayne is interesting, don't get me wrong. But the majority of his most intriguing qualities are also present in Murdock. And Murdock has many fascinating contradictory qualities besides those.

He's a dedicated lawyer by day, and yet he breaks the law every night when he dons his vigilante gear. He's a devout Catholic, and yet he disguises himself in the image of the devil. He's completely blind, and yet he perceives the world around him with far greater acuity than any sighted person. There was an interesting story arc by J.M. DeMatteis in 1995 where Matt suffered an identity crisis triggered in part by these paradoxical components of his multifaceted character. It demonstrated how fragile his psychological equilibrium is while all these conflicting impulses are competing in the balance.


With a character this complex and layered, the makers of the TV show could be forgiven for leaving a few things out. But perhaps their greatest achievement lies in how comprehensively and accurately they've adapted Matt into live action. They've managed to nail his characterisation with all its contradictions and complexities intact. For me, Cox's Daredevil is tied with Reeve's Superman as my favourite live action representation of a comic book superhero. They literally couldn't have done a better job.

While Bruce Wayne is an intellectually and physically idealised billionaire, Matt Murdock is a more down-to-earth bloke from a real neighbourhood of a real city, with a clearly defined ethnic background, a full time job, a religion, a physical disability, and a screwed-up personal life involving mostly ordinary people. He comes across as more flawed and real than most comic book heroes. And despite the darkness and violence surrounding the world he inhabits, Matt himself has never been a cynic or a nihilist. He's a good man who sees the best in people. Even at his lowest ebb, when he was homeless and unemployed, he still found a way to help others and be happy. There's something uplifting and inspirational about that. It's not the sort of thing you'd necessarily expect from one of the darker super heroes.

As for the future of the show, here are two things I'm predicting will happen in season 3:

1)   Bullseye. I don't think they can put him off any longer. If Fisk is Daredevil's Ra's al Ghul, then Bullseye is his Joker. He's the other arch nemesis, and the one for whom Matt harbours the most intense personal hatred. Fisk will probably hire him to break Daredevil physically. His presence may also signal the end of the road for Karen Page, though I'm hoping her storyline will play out differently in the TV series than it did in the comics.

2)    'Born Again'. The best Daredevil comic ever written (and IMO Frank Miler's magnum opus). The pieces were clearly being put in place during season 2: the dream sequence where Sister Maggie tends Matt's wounds at the start of episode 3, Fisk growing suspicious of Matt in episode 10, Karen learning Daredevil's true identity in episode 13 – all things that could lead into 'Born Again'.

Season 1 was basically Miller's 'The Man Without Fear' mixed with the 'Gang War' and 'The Fall of the Kingpin' arcs. Season 2 was the Elektra saga mixed with Garth Ennis' Punisher MAX and the numerous Daredevil vs. Punisher crossover stories (I'm hoping to post the first part of the season 2 comic analysis soon). Season 3 should be a mixture of 'Born Again' and the best of the Bullseye stories. It's possible they might also incorporate elements of 'Lone Stranger' or 'Guardian Devil' if the rumours about Mephisto appearing in The Defenders turn out to be true.

I assumed The Defenders season 1 would be a loose adaptation of Shadowland. Only in light of the events from Daredevil season 2, I'd imagine Elektra would be the Hand's demonic super weapon instead of Matt. Now I'm wondering if they'll merge the Beast and Mephisto into a single character; if Mephisto is the Black Sky demon the Hand have been trying to conjure into Elektra's body. Then again, the rumours about Mephisto appearing could be hogwash.

Looking really far ahead to Daredevil season 4, and assuming they do tackle 'Born Again' in season 3, then it would be logical to follow it up with adaptations of either Ann Nocenti's Typhoid Mary arc or Brian Michael Bendis' 'Out' storyline. But now I'm getting really far ahead of myself.

Here's an interesting featurette showing how the martial arts sequences are staged. Philip Silvera, the main fight coordinator on this show, also choreographed the fight scenes in Deadpool and the Arkham games. That guy's top of his league.

Only 2 Emmy nominations for Daredevil this year:

•   Outstanding Sound Editing For A Series
•   Outstanding Stunt Coordination For A Drama Series, Limited Series Or Movie

Bet you anything it doesn't win either.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 14 Jul  2016, 19:28Bet you anything it doesn't win either.

Considering Hollyweird politics, yeah, I don't see Daredevil winning that stuff.

Here's a superb video analysis of Daredevil's philosophical themes. I'd love to see more videos like this analysing each of the Batman films.


I do however have a few quibbles. Firstly, the line about Daredevil being a Batman rip-off. I wrote an entire article on this subject a few months ago, so I won't go over it again now. But suffice it to say the statement is incorrect: http://www.batman-online.com/features/2016/3/17/batman-to-hells-kitchen-and-back-the-daredevil-connection#sthash.e28HqbIN.dpbs

Secondly, Daredevil did not 'kill' Nobu. At worst Matt could be blamed for immolating him during their first encounter, though the circumstances were ambiguous and desperate. The next two times Daredevil 'killed' Nobu, he already knew his opponent would survive. Ultimately it was Stick who killed Nobu, not Daredevil. On the extremely rare occasions Daredevil's used lethal force in the comics, it's either been by accident (e.g. knocking Mary Walker out of a window in The Man Without Fear), against supernatural/demonic beings who aren't so much 'alive' as 'undead' (e.g. the Hand), or in situations where it was an unavoidable measure to prevent the further loss of innocent life (e.g. shooting down Nuke's helicopter in Born Again). But so far the MCU Daredevil has never killed anyone.

Thirdly, I think they could have said something about the conflict between moral relativism and moral absolutism in season 1. Fisk and Matt both want to improve Hell's Kitchen, but they have very different ways of going about it. Fisk is willing to tolerate the existence of crime and even profit from it, just as long as he can consolidate the various underworld organisations into a single entity and control them. He'll allow narcotics and human trafficking to continue, but he'll isolate them from the ordinary people and invest the ill-gotten profits towards urban redevelopment. For Fisk, the noble ends justify the criminal means. By contrast, Murdock is a moral absolutist who refuses to compromise his ethics. To him, all crime must be stamped out. None of it can be tolerated. Fisk sees himself as morally superior to the other criminals he controls, but to Daredevil Fisk is just another lowlife hood. I think this is an interesting moral contrast that would have been worth highlighting in the video.

I'm coming back to this.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  5 Jul  2016, 18:14I may get lynched for saying this, but I've always thought Matt Murdock was a more complex, layered and interesting character than Bruce Wayne. Wayne is interesting, don't get me wrong. But the majority of his most intriguing qualities are also present in Murdock. And Murdock has many fascinating contradictory qualities besides those.

He's a dedicated lawyer by day, and yet he breaks the law every night when he dons his vigilante gear. He's a devout Catholic, and yet he disguises himself in the image of the devil. He's completely blind, and yet he perceives the world around him with far greater acuity than any sighted person. There was an interesting story arc by J.M. DeMatteis in 1995 where Matt suffered an identity crisis triggered in part by these paradoxical components of his multifaceted character. It demonstrated how fragile his psychological equilibrium is while all these conflicting impulses are competing in the balance.

As you say, he's a devout Catholic. Someone as religious as he is would see his own actions as morally repugnant. And they are. Catholic theology is relatively black and white. By any standard, he's violating his own belief system by doing what he does as Daredevil.

I believe on some level Murdock is disgusted with his own actions. He sees them as evil on some level. I don't think it's an accident that his alias and iconography revolve around evil and the demonic. It's how he sees the things he does. Yes, there are positive ramifications for many of his actions. But, at the risk of beating the religious thing to death, in Catholicism the ends don't justify the means.

The part of him that attends Mass every week routinely rebels against the part of him that puts on a mask and brutalizes people. It's a fascinating internal conflict. To my knowledge, it's found nowhere else in comics. Daredevil is unique.

As with Wayne, it didn't have to be this way. Bruce could've become a police officer if he wanted to fight crime. He could've bought his way into the mayor's office, the governor's office or even the Oval Office if he wanted to fight corruption. He didn't have to become Batman if his only objective was doing the right thing.

Murdock, for his part, could've become a police officer. Joined the FBI. Joined SHIELD. Done lots of things. But he too chose a different path.

The key difference as I see it is Bruce believes he's doing the right thing. He's not troubled with the nuances of religious morality. If Bruce is religious (which I personally doubt), clearly his conscience isn't troubling him.

Murdock KNOWS he's doing the wrong thing. But he can't stop doing it. The press calls him a hero but he has a very different estimation of himself, I think.

In brief, Daredevil is awesome!

confirmed; season 3 is on its way!

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 21 Jul  2016, 22:56
As you say, he's a devout Catholic. Someone as religious as he is would see his own actions as morally repugnant. And they are. Catholic theology is relatively black and white. By any standard, he's violating his own belief system by doing what he does as Daredevil.

I believe on some level Murdock is disgusted with his own actions. He sees them as evil on some level. I don't think it's an accident that his alias and iconography revolve around evil and the demonic. It's how he sees the things he does. Yes, there are positive ramifications for many of his actions. But, at the risk of beating the religious thing to death, in Catholicism the ends don't justify the means.

The part of him that attends Mass every week routinely rebels against the part of him that puts on a mask and brutalizes people. It's a fascinating internal conflict. To my knowledge, it's found nowhere else in comics. Daredevil is unique.

As with Wayne, it didn't have to be this way. Bruce could've become a police officer if he wanted to fight crime. He could've bought his way into the mayor's office, the governor's office or even the Oval Office if he wanted to fight corruption. He didn't have to become Batman if his only objective was doing the right thing.

Murdock, for his part, could've become a police officer. Joined the FBI. Joined SHIELD. Done lots of things. But he too chose a different path.

The key difference as I see it is Bruce believes he's doing the right thing. He's not troubled with the nuances of religious morality. If Bruce is religious (which I personally doubt), clearly his conscience isn't troubling him.

Murdock KNOWS he's doing the wrong thing. But he can't stop doing it. The press calls him a hero but he has a very different estimation of himself, I think.

In brief, Daredevil is awesome!

Doctor Strange concurs.


I think a lot of the time Matt's more violent actions can be mitigated by the principle of double effect as outlined by Thomas Aquinas; the concept that an unavoidable evil may be permissible provided the evil itself is not the desired outcome, but rather a necessary step towards a greater good. I recall Frank Miller saying in an interview that Matt was driven by a desire to do good rather than a desire to punish wrong, which is essentially what sets him apart from Frank Castle. Miller also commented on the violence and anger inherent in the Daredevil character, speculating that their origin might stem from his frustration over being blind or possibly from his father. Either way, 'the devil' in him is constantly at war with the saint. Two contrasting impulses vying for supremacy, and Matt is fully aware of the conflict.

Unlike Bruce Wayne, who can rationalise the most irrational behaviour to convince himself what he's doing makes sense, Matt can never fully shake off his self-doubt and moral awareness. He's not insane and he knows when he's doing something wrong. When Batman crosses a line, he just forgets about it and moves on. When Daredevil does it, he has to acknowledge the transgression and confess the sin. He knows when he's breaking the laws of God and man (he holds both in the highest esteem), but he'll do it anyway if he deems it necessary.


That element of moral self-consciousness is something you just don't get with other superheroes. It shows that Matt, according to his own belief system, is jeopardising far more than just his liberty when he puts on his mask. He's risking his very soul.

The conflict comes across particularly well in the TV show during his conversations with Claire and Foggy. Despite being a skilled lawyer, a master of rhetoric and apologetics, he can never fully defend his own position against his friends' criticisms. He constantly tries to justify his crusade, but the weaknesses in his arguments are repeatedly exposed. He's a flawed complex man whose life hangs in a delicate state of equilibrium. But that's one of the things that makes him such a great character, as well as a great hero.

Quote from: riddler on Fri, 22 Jul  2016, 14:26
confirmed; season 3 is on its way!

Here's the season 3 announcement teaser:


It's hard to imagine them topping the first two seasons, but with 'Born Again' and Bullseye they just might do it. It's a pity it probably won't get released until 2018. But at least we've got The Defenders to tide us over in the meantime.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 22 Jul  2016, 17:28


It's hard to imagine them topping the first two seasons, but with 'Born Again' and Bullseye they just might do it. It's a pity it probably won't get released until 2018. But at least we've got The Defenders to tide us over in the meantime.

I haven't seen season 2 (believe me I will I've just been super busy) but if the delay allows for more development I'm all for it.

Good point. More time spent getting the scripts perfect can only be a good thing. But it's still frustrating having to wait. I think we were spoiled getting 26 amazing episodes in under a year.

I'm hoping they'll plot out seasons 3 and 4 together, much like Drew Goddard did with the first two seasons. Hopefully that way we won't have to wait long for the fourth season after the third finishes.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 22 Jul  2016, 22:30Good point. More time spent getting the scripts perfect can only be a good thing. But it's still frustrating having to wait. I think we were spoiled getting 26 amazing episodes in under a year.

I'm hoping they'll plot out seasons 3 and 4 together, much like Drew Goddard did with the first two seasons. Hopefully that way we won't have to wait long for the fourth season after the third finishes.

Not sure how likely that is. A lot of time will be taken up with Defenders. No idea when a fourth season will even be logistically feasible.

2018 release date confirmed for season 3: http://screencrush.com/jessica-jones-daredevil-punisher-2018-defenders/

Meanwhile Matt Damon has revealed Daredevil is his favourite superhero:


The man has taste.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon,  1 Aug  2016, 19:52
2018 release date confirmed for season 3: http://screencrush.com/jessica-jones-daredevil-punisher-2018-defenders/

Meanwhile Matt Damon has revealed Daredevil is his favourite superhero:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT_28IWVLuY

The man has taste.

Keep in mind he is childhood friends with Ben Affleck who also said Daredevil was his favourite character growing up (though that may have been a promotional thing for the film). Seems he was a comic fan though and since we know he can do action and sci-fi, I'm kind of surprised he hasn't appeared in a comic film or show yet. Perhaps hawkeye should marvel ever bring that character to the small screen?

 It sounds like Affleck's a fan:

Quote"The Netflix show does really cool stuff," he continued. "I feel like that was there for us to do with that character, and we never kind of got it right. I wanted to do one of those movies and sort of get it right."

http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/batman/news/a816995/ben-affleck-hates-daredevil/

Meanwhile Charlie Cox has defended Affleck's Daredevil:

Quote"I actually really, really liked the film and thought Ben Affleck did a really good job. I think the film is tonally a bit confused [but] I actually really enjoyed it," he said.

http://comicbook.com/marvel/2016/11/07/netflix-daredevil-stars-are-fans-of-ben-afflecks-daredevil-movie/

It's a shame Ben's so down on the 2003 movie. I've said this before, but it bears repeating – the Daredevil: Director's Cut is a good superhero film and a significant improvement over the theatrical cut. Anyone who hasn't seen it yet should check it out.

Meanwhile here's some gorgeous fan art inspired by the Netflix show:

I enjoy the 2003 Daredevil movie as a noble failure. It got far more right than it did wrong. Ultimately I think it aimed for too much. It put Daredevil through a slightly deconstructive character arc you'd think should wait for a sequel.

A fun but slightly dark intro movie pitting Daredevil against Kingpin and Bullseye followed by a more introspective, grittier character piece sequel featuring Elektra would've been a solid one-two combo. Basically even the director's cut (hell, especially the director's cut) is a trilogy all in one movie. As such, none of the passages and movements really have a chance to breathe.

Then again, how many movies can be accused of having too many good ideas, too many good characters, too much good acting? A noble failure.

They certainly did try to cram a lot of the mythology into one film:

•   Daredevil's origin from The Man Without Fear
•   The Elektra saga
•   The Fall of the Kingpin
•   Set pieces adapted from various Bullseye stories

In Mark Steven Johnson's defence, that movie was made in an era before shared universes, back when superhero films were standalone affairs and there was no guarantee you'd get a sequel. I suppose they felt they had to cover as much ground in as little time as possible. I think the success of the Netflix show has proven the long-form storytelling structure of a TV series works better for this particular character than a feature film. Still, I'm glad the film exists. If nothing else, it has a certain nostalgic charm to it. It's very much of that post-Matrix vintage, back when male characters were all wearing trench coats, female characters were all wearing leather pants and tank tops, and fight scenes were dominated by excessive wire-fu and bullet time effects. It's very much of its time.

With regards to the Director's Cut, I respect Johnson for having the wisdom to not only add footage, but also to cut down some of the weaker aspects from the theatrical edit. The Elektra material in particular was always an issue, so it was a smart move to trim some of her scenes (two of her scenes were removed entirely). Most of the other characters – Ben, Foggy, Karen, Manolis, Wesley, etc – actually got more screen time in the DC. Elektra's the only character who got less. And the film benefits from it IMO.

It's interesting to note certain changes that have occurred in the Daredevil comics since the TV series started. For one thing, Matt is looking more and more like Charlie Cox. Recent artists are generally depicting him with darker hair and stubble on his chin.


Marvel changes the height and weight stats for their heroes from time to time. Until recently, Daredevil was meant to be 6'0 and 200lbs. Now he's 5'11 and 185lbs, which is almost exactly the same as Cox's stats.

Matt's secret identity has been restored and he's relocated back to New York. He's also about to become a member of the Defenders, like his MCU counterpart.

The 'world on fire' visualisation of Matt's radar sense has appeared in some of the more recent comics.


Daredevil's current costume is darker. And his mask is sometimes drawn with the nose covered (depending on the artist), similar to the mask in the TV show.


There have been other subtle nods too, like the Italian gladiator movie poster on the wall of Melvin Potter's workshop, or the occasional reference to the New York Bulletin, or the recent introduction of Father Jordan as a Lantom-like figure for Matt to confide in. As someone who wasn't enamoured with Mark Waid's light-hearted Silver Age approach to the character, I have to say I approve of all these changes. It feels like the comic book Daredevil has returned to his dark roots and is back to his old self again. And I believe the TV series is at least partly to credit for that.

On the subject of the TV show, Charlie Cox has recently said they're to start filming season 3 later this year (woo-hoo!). Jessica Jones season 2 is also about to commence filming. This raises the problem of which series will get the spring release date in 2018 and which will have to wait until summer. I'm hoping DD gets the spring release. Partly because it means I don't have to wait as long to see it, partly because I enjoyed the fact the first two seasons were released in spring, and partly because – if season 3 is an adaptation of Miller and Mazzucchelli's Daredevil: Born Again, as many of us suspect – it's the perfect superhero story for Easter. Born Again is essentially an allegory for the Passion:

•   Matt is betrayed by someone close to him who sells him out in exchange for cheap material gain (a fix of heroine instead of thirty pieces of silver).

•   Matt is publicly defamed and accused of a crime of which he is innocent.

•   Matt is scourged by his enemy and brutalised to the brink of death.

•   Matt staggers around the streets of New York, mirroring Christ's walk to Golgotha. During this walk, Matt falls three times.

•   Matt is pieced in the side.

•   Matt then symbolically 'dies' and is held in his mother's arms in an image that consciously evokes the Pietà.


•   There's also an obvious crucifixion image in one chapter, with the cross above Matt's bed serving to highlight the significance of his pose.


•   Several days pass while Matt convalesces. Eventually he rises again stronger than before, and returns to save his friends. Themes of resurrection and redemption feature prominently.

Now I'm not expecting a literal scene-for-scene adaptation of this story. But if it is referenced in the main plot of season 3, and if the most important themes and images are preserved, then it would be insane not to release it around Easter.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 15 Apr  2017, 12:55It's interesting to note certain changes that have occurred in the Daredevil comics since the TV series started. For one thing, Matt is looking more and more like Charlie Cox. Recent artists are generally depicting him with darker hair and stubble on his chin.

What I'm about to say is rank hypocrisy on my part.

Usually this bothers me. I don't like it when comics conform to movies or shows. Comics should be their own thing. Partly that's because a lot of movie concepts might not translate so well to comics (Superman's crystal fortress, for example). But mostly it's that comics should always be their own thing in my opinion. I don't like the idea of the tail wagging the dog.

But, because I'm a hypocrite, I'm okay with these things appearing in Daredevil comics for some reason. It might just be that I dig Cox so much in the role.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 15 Apr  2017, 12:55Now I'm not expecting a literal scene-for-scene adaptation of this story. But if it is referenced in the main plot of season 3, and if the most important themes and images are preserved, then it would be insane not to release it around Easter.

This has been the golden egg for a long while now. Before Marvel reacquired the character, a movie reboot was supposedly going to be an adaptation of BA.

Honestly, that's a story you have to build up to in order for it to work. And at this point, I think the Netflix show has earned BA. I might prefer saving BA for season 4 but if it happens in season 3, oh well, I'll still be into it.

Considering how many "loose adaptations" of comic stories fall apart when they get translated to other media (Civil War, for example), I happen to think it might be best to follow the comic story as closely as possible.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 15 Apr  2017, 22:30What I'm about to say is rank hypocrisy on my part.

Usually this bothers me. I don't like it when comics conform to movies or shows. Comics should be their own thing. Partly that's because a lot of movie concepts might not translate so well to comics (Superman's crystal fortress, for example). But mostly it's that comics should always be their own thing in my opinion. I don't like the idea of the tail wagging the dog.

But, because I'm a hypocrite, I'm okay with these things appearing in Daredevil comics for some reason. It might just be that I dig Cox so much in the role.

For me, it depends on whether the changes are an improvement or a detriment to the source material. Sometimes filmmakers contribute inventive suggestions that add depth to the mythology. Other times they screw things up in an attempt to dilute the material and make it fit a pre-existing mould. As an example, I like the idea of the comic book Cobblepot having fused digits on his hands as I feel it adds weight to his physical insecurity, gives him a reason to wear gloves and legitimises his 'Penguin' moniker. But I don't particularly like it when the comic book Penguin is depicted with pointy teeth or other DeVito-esque characteristics.

In the case of Daredevil, the TV show is extremely close to the comics to begin with. Especially when it comes to the characterisation of Matt. They took the best aspects of several different writers' work – mostly Miller, Bendis and Loeb – and fused them into a definitive take that nails the essence of the source material. Admittedly there are one or two changes when it comes to some of the villains (mostly Owlsley in season 1 and Elektra in season 2), but otherwise it's spot on.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again – I've yet to see a 100% accurate live action portrayal of Bruce Wayne; one that captures all the major facets of the character in the correct balance. But Matt Murdock, who I would argue is a more complex and layered character than Wayne, is faithfully and comprehensively captured in the Daredevil TV series. He's right there on the screen, practically interchangeable with his comic book counterpart. One day I'd love to see the comic book Batman translated with the same accuracy (IMO he has been in animation, but not yet in live action). So while the TV show may be very different from what Waid was doing back in 2015, it was nevertheless true to best eras of the comic's history. By bringing the current comics in line with the TV series, they've essentially regressed them to an earlier vintage. And I consider that a good thing. Unless this is your idea of a definitive Daredevil:


I'm also happy with the comics using Charlie Cox's likeness, mainly because he looks an awful lot like the comic book Matt anyway. Obviously there are variations in how the character is drawn from one artist to the next, but the most common recurring features – his Irish looks, strong chin and jaw line, prominent eyebrows, slightly pouty lips, overall height and build – are consistent with Cox's appearance. Charlie bears an especially striking resemblance to Tomm Coker's version of Matt from Daredevil Noir (2009).

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 15 Apr  2017, 22:30This has been the golden egg for a long while now. Before Marvel reacquired the character, a movie reboot was supposedly going to be an adaptation of BA.

Mark Steven Johnson also intended to adapt it as a sequel to his 2003 film. Hence Kingpin discovering Matt's secret during the final showdown. The director's cut also features the BA scene where Maggie visits Matt in hospital after he's first blinded.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 15 Apr  2017, 22:30Honestly, that's a story you have to build up to in order for it to work. And at this point, I think the Netflix show has earned BA. I might prefer saving BA for season 4 but if it happens in season 3, oh well, I'll still be into it.

I wouldn't mind them saving BA for season 4 if they do the Bullseye storyline in season 3 and have it end on a cliffhanger with Kingpin learning Daredevil's identity. In the comics, Fisk discovered Matt's secret in Born Again. But Bullseye first tried telling him Matt was DD back in Daredevil Vol 1 #181, only Fisk didn't believe him. This was the same issue where Daredevil paralysed Bullseye. Something similar could happen in season 3 of the TV show. Have Bullseye discover Matt's secret identity and try to convince Fisk, only for the latter to disbelieve him. Then Bullseye goes after Matt in the season finale and ends up having his spine shattered. When Fisk finds out what happened to Lester, he realises Bullseye was right about Matt all along. Then they could amalgamate BA with Nocenti's Typhoid Mary storyline for season 4 (those stories go together extremely well). But I'll be equally happy if they use BA and Bullseye in season 3.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 15 Apr  2017, 22:30Considering how many "loose adaptations" of comic stories fall apart when they get translated to other media

Alas, I fear that's what we're in for with Thor: Ragnarok's 'adaptation' of Planet Hulk.

Unrelated to anything specific with your post, I think the Bendis/Maleev run on Daredevil is probably my favorite. I binged through those issues but I can see where it was frustrating to read those comics on a monthly basis. But sucking them up like I did was one of the top 10 comic book reading projects of my entire life.

In fact, that Bendis run is probably the main reason I was instantly on board with Cox being cast as Murdock. He has a sort of Maleev look to him to begin with so it never took much imagination to see him playing the role.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 18 Apr  2017, 20:12
Unrelated to anything specific with your post, I think the Bendis/Maleev run on Daredevil is probably my favorite. I binged through those issues but I can see where it was frustrating to read those comics on a monthly basis. But sucking them up like I did was one of the top 10 comic book reading projects of my entire life.

I'd still rate Miller's run as my favourite, chiefly because he introduced more innovations to the mythology than any other writer. But Bendis is probably my second favourite Daredevil author.

'Underboss' and 'Out' constitute one of the best superhero stories ever IMO. DD's secret identity being blown wasn't something they neatly undid the following issue. Rather they ran with the consequences of his exposure for over a decade. Writers like Brubaker, Diggle and Waid got plenty of mileage out of it. Now Marvel's reinstated DD's secret identity, but I'm happy with that decision. The time was finally right for it. Soule's taking things in a fresh direction (having Matt work as a prosecutor for the D.A.'s office and tutoring a sidekick) that wouldn't have worked if DD's true identity remained out in the open. So while I'm pleased with the direction the current comics are heading, I'm also glad Marvel had the balls to honour the 'Out' storyline for as long as they did. If it had been one of their more popular characters, I'm not sure they would have taken the risk.

I also love 'Hardcore' and 'The King of Hell's Kitchen'. Those stories contain one of the most badass depictions of Daredevil ever. Occasionally I see comments from people online claiming Jessica Jones would stomp Matt in a fight. My response to that is to direct them to 'The King of Hell's Kitchen'. In Alias JJ was kayoed by a single unarmed lowlife high on MGH. In 'The King of Hell's Kitchen' Matt took on 100 heavily armed yakuza enforcers – all high on MGH – and not only did he get the better of them, but he did it in under three minutes. That fight scene is probably the single coolest feat I've seen in a superhero comic. His showdowns with Bullseye, Typhoid and Kingpin in 'Hardcore' were also very memorable.

Another story I love from Bendis' run is 'Decalogue', which narrowly edges out Soule's recent 'Dark Art' storyline for all-time creepiest Daredevil comic. I never usually find horror comics frightening, but I'll admit 'Decalogue' sent a shiver down my spine.

Have you ever read Daredevil: End of Days, colors?


It's essentially the Daredevil equivalent of The Dark Knight Returns - a dark 'what if' scenario exploring a possible future/fate for the Man Without Fear. I won't say more about the plot in case you haven't read it, but I highly recommend it. Particularly if you're a fan of Citizen Kane...

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 18 Apr  2017, 20:12In fact, that Bendis run is probably the main reason I was instantly on board with Cox being cast as Murdock. He has a sort of Maleev look to him to begin with so it never took much imagination to see him playing the role.

Absolutely.


I think Maleev's visual style also informed the cinematography of the TV series more than any other artist. It's no coincidence they included one of his covers on the front page of a newspaper in the season one finale. They also referenced it in a promo pic.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 20 Apr  2017, 19:03I'd still rate Miller's run as my favourite, chiefly because he introduced more innovations to the mythology than any other writer. But Bendis is probably my second favourite Daredevil author.

He had a ton of amazing ideas for the title. It's one of the reasons why I typically disagree when people criticize Bendis too much. A hack or a loser or whatever Bendis is supposed to be could never have written Underboss, much less the amazing stuff that came later. I'm not saying Bendis is God's gift to comics but I am pretty much done with people picking on him for no reason.

Especially when there are so many good reasons to pick on him... but they have nothing to do with this thread so moving right along...

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 20 Apr  2017, 19:03Have you ever read Daredevil: End of Days, colors?

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.gr-assets.com%2Fbooks%2F1374050905l%2F17251097.jpg&hash=dc967f2fcf57c836c2f6bc89bd1f572f72b30494)

It's essentially the Daredevil equivalent of The Dark Knight Returns - a dark 'what if' scenario exploring a possible future/fate for the Man Without Fear. I won't say more about the plot in case you haven't read it, but I highly recommend it. Particularly if you're a fan of Citizen Kane...

The name "Bendis" and the concept of EOD are literally the only things that got me through that limited series. I have fairly middle-of-the-road tastes when it comes to comic book art. So nutso artists like Klaus Janson or Bill Sienkiewicz on the art is always a turnoff. And by that, I mean they're usually deal-breakers for me.

Pairing the two of them up is a criminal, borderline unholy, act in my opinion.

As to the story itself... eh. I never gave much thought to how Daredevil's story might end. But I guess the EOD concept is as good as anything. I think the main reason I was able to work my way through it is because I interpreted the story as outside continuity. So EOD isn't necessarily Daredevil's gospel or anything. I really enjoyed what Bendis did with Elektra in that story. Of all characters, I buy that she does the things she does in EOD. Other characters... well, whether it's believable or not it's still hard to enjoy some of it. Especially the Mapone angle.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 20 Apr  2017, 19:03I think Maleev's visual style also informed the cinematography of the TV series more than any other artist. It's no coincidence they included one of his covers on the front page of a newspaper in the season one finale. They also referenced it in a promo pic.

And here I thought I was the only one who noticed that. :D

It's not one of my favourite stories, but by the sounds of it I enjoyed it more than you did. I think the reason I liked End of Days is that it feels like Bendis' apocryphal conclusion to his own run. The story picks up several years after the events of his last story, but does so in a way that makes no allowance for his successors' contributions. For example, the depiction of Milla doesn't acknowledge what happened to her during Brubaker's run. Rather it picks up where Bendis' run ended and reads as if her subsequent misfortunes never happened. It feels like Bendis capping off his Daredevil in the same way Moore capped off the Pre-Crisis Superman in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?

Bendis had previously explored the idea of Stick's reincarnation in his Daredevil: Ninja miniseries roughly ten years earlier. But that story was more of a follow-up to Kevin Smith's 'Guardian Devil' and it received a very mixed response from fans (it's ok, but nothing special). End of Days was basically his second and more thorough attempt at exploring the same concept and is arguably the better of the two miniseries.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 22 Apr  2017, 14:12Bendis had previously explored the idea of Stick's reincarnation in his Daredevil: Ninja miniseries roughly ten years earlier. But that story was more of a follow-up to Kevin Smith's 'Guardian Devil' and it received a very mixed response from fans (it's ok, but nothing special). End of Days was basically his second and more thorough attempt at exploring the same concept and is arguably the better of the two miniseries.

The reincarnation thing kind of bothered me, tbh. Without dwelling too much on my religious views, I don't believe in reincarnation IRL. But even as a fictional concept, I've never liked the idea of reincarnation since most writers use it as a gimmick instead of something a bit more inventive.

Still, the reincarnation thing was a bit of a twist ending. I was expecting Bendis to take the obvious way out of having Stick's reincarnation tutor Matt's child. But obviously Bendis took it in a more creative direction and I could at least appreciate (and in a way kind of enjoy) how wrong I was with my original guess on how things would wrap up.

I haven't read very many The End titles apart from this and the Punisher but what I enjoy about the concept is comparing how they play out vs. how I always imagined them playing out. It's hard to get much darker than the Punisher's The End story... and yet it was just about the perfect ending for the Ennis run on the Punisher.

I need to check out more of these things.

Considering Daredevil is probably the most explicitly Christian hero out there (unless you count Bibleman...), the theme of reincarnation is a bit out of place. Themes of reincarnation are better suited to the Iron Fist comics, while themes of resurrection work better for Daredevil (Elektra's storyline being the most obvious example).

I've not read Punisher: The End, but I'll make sure to add it to my reading list. I've always got time for Ennis' Punisher stories. I've been getting into the Punisher comics more and more ever since he was announced as the villain in DD s2. The closest I've read to a final story for Frank – although it wasn't part of The End line – was Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe, which is an amusing tale where he annihilates every other superhero until only he and Daredevil remain.

I seem to recall you once saying that you weren't mad on Paul Levitz's 'Only Legends Live Forever!' (Adventures Comics Vol 1 #461-462, February-April 1979) colors, but I've got a lot of affection for that story. It's not merely a 'what if' tale, but a canonical conclusion to the original Golden Age Batman's adventures. If nothing else, I admire the finality of it. If they did that storyline nowadays, he'd be back from the dead within a year. I also dig the idea of Batman being taken out by a lowlife thug like Bill Jensen, rather than an A-list adversary such as Darkseid. It's not an especially epic story, and the quality of writing and art aren't anything to write home about. I suppose it's the boldness and permanence of the tale that make it special for me. Or maybe I'm just so fatigued with overblown 'event' storylines that I appreciate Levitz wrapping the whole thing up in just two issues.

Regarding End of Days, I sure hope that's not how DD finally checks out in the 616 canon. I don't mind that death in the context of that particular storyline, but I wouldn't want it carrying through into the mainstream comics. I don't know how I imagine Daredevil's career ending. The two most obvious options would be to have him go down fighting like in End of Days, or just keep on going indefinitely. But if it was to be his final story, I think I'd rather see Matt achieve some level of inner peace that's been hitherto absent from his life. Perhaps his last adventure could revolve around his radar sense deteriorating. He knows he hasn't got much time left before he loses his extrasensory powers altogether, so he embarks on one final mission to put his affairs in order and settle old scores. Then at the end of the story he basically becomes an ordinary blind man and settles down into a peaceful retirement, confident in the knowledge his mission is finished and he's earned a rest. I'd find that preferable to having Bullseye ram a billy club through his skull.

I like thinking of it that these characters all have a The End point somewhere in their biographies. Thinking about their conclusions is kind of fun.

Spider-Man is going out in a blaze of glory. I think Ultimate Spider-Man pretty much nailed how Peter Parker will die. And the idea of Uncle Ben personally welcoming him to his reward is heartwarming. Because in its own way, it kind of is a happy ending.

Superman is here to guide mankind. "Build a better world, Kal." The day will come centuries from now when his work is finished and there's nothing more he can offer humanity. His contemporaries are all long dead so he'll leave Earth in a DC One Million style to explore the cosmos.

Somewhere in his late 40's or early 50's, Batman will experience what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity. He'll realize his parents' deaths weren't his fault. He'll make peace with their memory, give up crimefighting, marry Selina (or somebody) and move away from Gotham forever. Tim becomes the new Batman. It's Tim's destiny.

Wally West will always be sought by the Speed Force. And someday, he'll reach a moment of zen insight and understand what the Speed Force always wanted from him. He'll allow himself to be absorbed by the Speed Force... and then he'll be returned to Earth to serve as a sort of a sentient manifestation of the Speed Force. His time as a human is over... but he still maintains some of his humanity.

The Punisher... honestly, if there's a better ending for him than The End, I don't know what it is. That's dark, gritty, bitter and perfect for the Punisher. Because in a weird kind of way, he'll have succeeded in his mission. And only the reader will understand just how fatalistic his mission always was.

I always figured the day would come when Tony Stark moved to Asgard rather than pass away. Odin (or somebody) simply would not allow someone as brilliant as Stark to die of old age. So Odin would put aside his own vanity and invite Stark to live with him and his family for all eternity. Stark, being in his upper 50's and not quite as full of beans as he used to be, will go along with it, viewing it as an eternal retirement.

I always imagined a sort of Reservoir Dogs-lite ending for the Fantastic Four. Sooner or later, Doom will succeed in killing Reed Richards. The law of averages just demands it. And when that happens, Doom isn't long for this world. If he doesn't die by his own hand, he'll die by Ben Grimm's hand Ultimatum-style. No flowery monologues, no "epic showdowns". Nothing fancy. Just the Thing squashing Doom like a grape.

Wonder Woman will eventually have her fill of man's world, I think. Yes she's a warrior, first. And yes, she's also a diplomat. But she's accustomed to genuine improvement and, in the short term, I don't see much job satisfaction from her. So I think she'd move back to Themyscira and probably stay there until news of the utopia Superman has built reaches the Amazons.

I could picture Nightwing eventually realizing he's just too old to continue. After that, there's no big mystery to it. He'd marry Babs, settle down and try to enjoy the remainder of his life in a quiet retirement. Bruce's own decision to retire may help him make his decision.

Jack Knight's decision to quit being Starman and move away from Opal City to raise a family was so pitch-perfect that there's no way to improve on that.

The list goes on but that's enough for now.

Barry Allen would be a tricky character to conclude on account of his existence generating and sustaining the Speed Force. Perhaps he could achieve a form of immortality by converting himself into pure energy, or else Thawne could trap him in a temporal loop so he never ages or dies. Or Maybe Barry should die, thereby ending both the Speed Force and Negative Speed Force at the same time.

I could see Katar Hol retire from crime fighting to pursue a career in politics on Thanagar. He could commit his autumn years to remedying the social inequalities that had once preoccupied his father, Paran. If Shayera's temperament mellowed with age, she could go along too and help protect him against assassination attempts.

The idea of Banner dying and progressing to a peaceful afterlife while the Hulk rages on – as suggested in Hulk: The End – is pretty much the perfect conclusion to their story. Banner deserves peace, but the Hulk can never attain true harmony. He almost did back on Sakaar, but fate just wouldn't give him a break. I imagine the Hulk, once free of Banner's humanity, becoming more and more enraged until eventually he turns into a giant gamma bomb a trillion times more powerful than the one that created him. There could be a twist at the end where he detonates in a seemingly unpopulated star system, only for the resultant outflow of gamma radiation to contaminate microscopic organisms and cause them to evolve into a race of Hulk-like monsters.

Joker has to die. There's no two ways about it. And I've always thought Gordon should be the one to finally kill him as payback for what he did to Barbara and Sarah.

Likewise Bullseye should eventually be killed. Elektra's probably the best candidate to take him out.

With Typhoid Mary, it would be fascinating to see the boundaries separating her different personalities break down so they all merge into a single gestalt. Eventually I imagine the Mary side of her would be unable to coexist with Typhoid and Bloody Mary, and so she'd probably end up committing suicide through pyrokinetic self-immolation.

With Lex Luthor, I can envisage a scenario where he's sequestered in some private super max and commits himself to curing every major disease known to man. Then, out of pure spite, he destroys his notes and commits suicide without sharing the fruits of his research with the rest of humanity. This would be his final parting shot at Superman.

Judge Dredd represents an interesting problem, being perhaps the only comic book hero who actually ages in real time. He was in his twenties when he first debuted in 1977. Forty years on, he's now pushing seventy. One day he'll be killed or will take the Long Walk and be replaced by a younger clone. Either that or they'll prolong his life by turning him into a cyborg. But one way or another, there will always be a Judge Dredd patrolling Mega-City One. There's no cushy retirement on the horizon for that guy.

This seems like the best place for this.

Just finished reading Last Rites from Daredevil v1 #297-#300. It's basically the inverse of Born Again in some ways inasmuch as Murdock destroys the Kingpin. It's not quite as systematic (or operatic) as Fisk's attacks on him during Born Again. But it's basically a reckoning between the two characters.

I enjoyed it a lot... although Karen annoyed the hell out of me. But apart from her, I enjoyed it. The part that works for me is how cold and methodical Murdock was in taking Fisk out. Murdock is a lawyer, obviously, so he used the legal system to dismantle Fisk and his whole operation.

Murdock is cold and calculating through the whole thing. He could give Michael Corleone lessons... right up until the instant he's reinstated as a lawyer. And then he's wracked with guilt. Yeah, Fisk is a major league scumbag. No two ways about it. But Murdock is still a basically decent guy and his conscience won't rest easy over what he had to do in order to take Fisk down.

Because ultimately it wasn't about the heroic Daredevil defeating the villainous Kingpin. It was about Murdock taking revenge on Wilson Fisk, the man who had done so much to hurt him. It was personal. Murdock hates Fisk. This wasn't an act of righteousness. It was vengeance, pure and simple. And that's a different thing.

It's a truth about which Murdock has no illusions by the last page of the story. Yeah, he did the right thing. But he did it for all the wrong reasons. And that haunts him.

Great story! I know Chichester isn't universally beloved but this was a great story and about as good a sequel to Born Again as you're likely to find.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  5 May  2017, 06:24Just finished reading Last Rites from Daredevil v1 #297-#300. It's basically the inverse of Born Again in some ways inasmuch as Murdock destroys the Kingpin. It's not quite as systematic (or operatic) as Fisk's attacks on him during Born Again. But it's basically a reckoning between the two characters.

'Last Rites' is terrific. As you say, it makes for a great sequel to Born Again. But it's also a superb Kingpin story. Chichester was the first writer to really delve into Fisk's background and flesh him out as a human being. If it wasn't for this book, we wouldn't have got the excellent TV episode 'Shadows in the Glass'. It forms a neat trilogy with Born Again and Ann Nocenti's Typhoid Mary arc.

Daredevil's a character who takes more than his fair share of beatings in life, so it's always rewarding to see him say 'enough' and start fighting back. The Fall of the Kingpin arc is a classic example of this. So is Bendis' Hardcore storyline. When Matt retaliates, he doesn't do it in half measures. He soundly owns his enemies and leaves them with scars to remember him by.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  5 May  2017, 06:24Because ultimately it wasn't about the heroic Daredevil defeating the villainous Kingpin. It was about Murdock taking revenge on Wilson Fisk, the man who had done so much to hurt him. It was personal. Murdock hates Fisk. This wasn't an act of righteousness. It was vengeance, pure and simple. And that's a different thing.

It's a truth about which Murdock has no illusions by the last page of the story. Yeah, he did the right thing. But he did it for all the wrong reasons. And that haunts him.

For me, this highlights one of Daredevil's most intriguing characteristics – his willingness to violate (within certain boundaries) his own highly developed sense of right and wrong. Other characters may confuse justice with revenge, but Matt's shrewd enough to know the difference. And if he pursues the latter over the former, his conscience will make him pay for it later.

Going off topic a bit now, but I was thinking the other day that Jack Murdock is one of the most underrated characters in the Marvel mythos. Most superheroes lose a parent figure early in their life, but the majority of those parents are portrayed as idealised saints. Thomas Wayne, Ben Parker, Nora Allen, etc. The great thing about Jack was that he wasn't a saint. He was a leg breaker. A drinker. A thug. He even lashed out at his own kid on one occasion.


But despite all that, Jack was a good man. A very good man, in fact. Whenever he did wrong, his conscience suffered because of it.


But he did bad things anyway because he believed it was serving a greater good: namely providing Matt with a better future. Matt breaks the law as a vigilante because he too believes he is serving a greater good. But both men have their limits. Jack refused to throw a fight, while Matt refuses to kill his enemies. Both men bend the rules, but both remain inescapably tethered to their core moral values. There are certain lines they won't cross, even at the expense of their own lives.

Dying the way he did, Jack taught his son the value of making sacrifices for one's principles. It was also from Jack that Matt learned to respect the importance of rules, and by extension the law.


It was from Jack he learned the basic tenets of right and wrong. And it was from Jack he inherited his paradoxical nature. Stick may have taught Matt his skills, but it was Jack who instilled in him his values.

The paradoxical part is the most interesting to me. How can someone who habitually breaks the law also respect the law? A character like Harvey Dent is an interesting counterpoint here, because Dent initially believed in the law only to lose that belief when he became Two-Face. But Matt is not disillusioned with the justice system. He's committed his life to serving it. If someone holds the law in such high esteem, but consciously breaks it anyway, what kind of a toll does that take on that person's conscience?

Most late lamented mentors teach the hero lessons through pithy sayings ("With great power...") or through the example they set with their own saintly behaviour. Jack taught Matt through the example of his own failures. He showed his son what a man should be, as well as what he shouldn't be. A very interesting character.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  5 May  2017, 06:24Great story! I know Chichester isn't universally beloved but this was a great story and about as good a sequel to Born Again as you're likely to find.

The hatred for Chichester mostly stems from his later stories. I've got to admit, I really like his run for purely nostalgic reasons. It was round about that time I first started reading Daredevil comics as a child. I have particularly fond memories of the whole 'Fall from Grace' storyline. I remember the glow-in-the-dark card covers on some of the original issues. I re-read the whole thing a few years ago when it was reissued as part of the Epic Collection and... it wasn't as good as I remembered. But I still like it. If nothing else, Scott McDaniel's artwork looks great.


I've got a theory that a lot of the resentment towards Chichester comes from him rehashing some of the sillier storylines from the Silver Age. The Silver Age Daredevil notoriously adopted the fake persona of Mike Murdock, while Chichester's Matt created the false persona of Jack Batlin. The Silver Age Daredevil faked his own death on no less than two separate occasions (firstly in Daredevil Vol 1 #41, then a second time in Daredevil Vol 1 #54), while Chichester's Matt faked his death in Daredevil Vol 1 #325. These storylines worked really well back in the sixties, but not so well in the nineties. Chichester's nineties Daredevil stories also have a rather dated cyberpunk feel to them that was typical of Marvel's Liefeldian 'extreme' approach throughout that decade. Like Diggle, I think his tenure also suffers from the fact it followed a vastly superior run: namely the Nocenti/Romita Jr era.

But I think most fans would agree his 'Last Rites' storyline was awesome.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  6 May  2017, 18:40'Last Rites' is terrific. As you say, it makes for a great sequel to Born Again. But it's also a superb Kingpin story. Chichester was the first writer to really delve into Fisk's background and flesh him out as a human being.

Funny you should say that because I remember thinking that the flashbacks and character tidbits seemed really organic and consequential to the story. Often, flashbacks in comics are for exposition more than character development. But here, the flashback stuff really sang. Some great writing.

Mind you, the first issue or two had a ton of typos and awkward phraseology so it's all relative.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  6 May  2017, 18:40Going off topic a bit now, but I was thinking the other day that Jack Murdock is one of the most underrated characters in the Marvel mythos. Most superheroes lose a parent figure early in their life, but the majority of those parents are portrayed as idealised saints. Thomas Wayne, Ben Parker, Nora Allen, etc. The great thing about Jack was that he wasn't a saint. He was a leg breaker. A drinker. A thug. He even lashed out at his own kid on one occasion.

...

But despite all that, Jack was a good man. A very good man, in fact. Whenever he did wrong, his conscience suffered because of it.

...

But he did bad things anyway because he believed it was serving a greater good: namely providing Matt with a better future. Matt breaks the law as a vigilante because he too believes he is serving a greater good. But both men have their limits. Jack refused to throw a fight, while Matt refuses to kill his enemies. Both men bend the rules, but both remain inescapably tethered to their core moral values. There are certain lines they won't cross, even at the expense of their own lives.

Dying the way he did, Jack taught his son the value of making sacrifices for one's principles. It was also from Jack that Matt learned to respect the importance of rules, and by extension the law.

Bingo. And I'd wanted to add that if Jack was any less solid a guy, Matt wouldn't have become a hero when he grew up.

Strictly speaking, Daredevil's origin story ought to be how a supervillain gets his start. But between religion, Jack's complicated (by comic book standards) view of right and wrong and other things conspired to keep Matt more or less on the straight and narrow.

As is typical of lawyers, Matt is willing to cross certain ethical lines if not necessarily certain moral lines. I refer his big showdown with Bullseye in Daredevil #181. Spider-Man, Captain America and other, more virtuous heroes wouldn't have let Bullseye drop like that. I think it's implied that Murdock knew Bullseye would survive. But still, even Batman would (usually) hesitate to hurt somebody that badly.

But the way I interpret that scene is Murdock wanted to end the threat of Bullseye permanently in a non-lethal way. It's a fine line to tread, so to speak, but Murdock did it. And I don't think just anybody else could. Or would. Needless to say, that's not conventional superhero ethics... but he didn't violate his own morality.

Only an attorney can make distinctions to quite that degree.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  6 May  2017, 18:40The hatred for Chichester mostly stems from his later stories. I've got to admit, I really like his run for purely nostalgic reasons. It was round about that time I first started reading Daredevil comics as a child. I have particularly fond memories of the whole 'Fall from Grace' storyline. I remember the glow-in-the-dark card covers on some of the original issues. I re-read the whole thing a few years ago when it was reissued as part of the Epic Collection and... it wasn't as good as I remembered. But I still like it. If nothing else, Scott McDaniel's artwork looks great.

Indeed. McDaniel grew a lot on an artistic basis doing that book. I've always wanted to see modern day McDaniel pay another visit to Daredevil. I suppose it's unlikely to happen. But I'd love it all the same.

As to Chichester, I'm willing to look the other way when it comes to a lot of FFG. First because I don't think it's completely fair to judge a writer's creative successes or failures when they weren't given a chance to finish the job. It's reason why I'll defend Chuck Austen's work on Superman to the hilt.

Second, it's one thing to enjoy or not enjoy the story on its own merits today. But one must remember how things were when FFG came out. The speculator boom was beginning to die off, although the industry hadn't become fully aware of that yet. In 1995, in many ways it was still 1993. Even by 1996, 1993 was definitely over.

In that kind of market, it was hard to get any oxygen at all. Comics were crammed to overflowing with chromium-embossed whatchamacallit and silly publicity stunts to vie for media attention.

In that environment, changing Daredevil's costume so drastically and other things that happened in FFG make more sense. Chichester seemed to really love the character. But he wanted to put his own stamp on the book, tell a story exciting enough to compete with the Doomsdays, Knightfalls and Clone Sagas of the world and have some fun with it too.

It's easy for someone to make fun of FFG nowadays. But I was still somewhat cutting my teeth as a collector back then. I remember exactly how things were. And Chichester succeeded when even Marvel didn't care about Daredevil anymore (unless the name "Miller" was somewhere on the cover). Daredevil had a lot of attention from a lot of people and for the first time in a long time he wasn't regarded as stale anymore. I would argue that without Chichester, Daredevil may very well have gotten cancelled somewhere in the mid to late 90's.

Much of the excitement in Wizard and other places either didn't mention Miller or else said words to the effect of "... hasn't been this exciting since Miller". By itself that's a huge victory. I don't think even Nocenti ever managed to rise above Miller in the fan press while she was on the book.

Anyway, if the book had been cancelled then maybe Quesada would've been able to rescue it later on anyway... but maybe not. If the only thing Chichester succeeded in doing was stave off the risk of cancellation then I'm prepared to call his run a success.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun,  7 May  2017, 02:33But the way I interpret that scene is Murdock wanted to end the threat of Bullseye permanently in a non-lethal way. It's a fine line to tread, so to speak, but Murdock did it. And I don't think just anybody else could. Or would. Needless to say, that's not conventional superhero ethics... but he didn't violate his own morality.

Right. Matt's ethics when it comes to killing are largely based on the principle of double effect. He'll use extreme and sometimes lethal force if doing so is unavoidable in the pursuit of a greater moral end. But he won't choose extreme or lethal force as an end in itself. Frank Miller once said that Matt is a character who's more concerned with comforting and protecting victims than he is with punishing criminals, and I think that's very true. Violence and death may be unavoidable consequence of his mission, but they're never a desirable objective.

His actions in DD #181 go back to a moral decision he made in 'Devils' (Daredevil Vol 1 #169, March 1981). In that issue Bullseye had escaped from captivity and was suffering from a terminal but operable brain tumour. It was Bullseye's own fault for running away before the tumour could be removed, and all Daredevil had to do was wait it out and let him die of natural causes. But he goes after him anyway and brings him in so the surgeons can save his life. The whole moral dilemma is encapsulated in the final battle, where Bullseye collapses on a railway line just as a train is bearing down on him. Daredevil could easily move Bullseye out of the way, but he's sorely tempted to just let him die.


In the end he saves him – from both the train and the tumour – and the story concludes with Matt pre-emptively assuming responsibility for all of Bullseye's future victims. Which would of course include Elektra. So in DD #181 Matt revisits that fateful decision and chooses a very different path. But I don't think he does it simply out of revenge. He sincerely weighs the moral implications of his actions and tries to do what is right.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun,  7 May  2017, 02:33In that kind of market, it was hard to get any oxygen at all. Comics were crammed to overflowing with chromium-embossed whatchamacallit and silly publicity stunts to vie for media attention.

I've got to admit, I do kind of miss those gimmicks. I had the original issues of Miller's Man Without Fear miniseries when I was a kid, and they all had cool red tinfoil colours. The only other time I remember Marvel going to that effort for Daredevil in the nineties was the Fall from Grace arc.

Though I do remember the glow-in-the-dark cover for one of the FFG issues stank really bad, so maybe it's a good thing they abandoned that particular gimmick.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun,  7 May  2017, 02:33Much of the excitement in Wizard and other places either didn't mention Miller or else said words to the effect of "... hasn't been this exciting since Miller". By itself that's a huge victory. I don't think even Nocenti ever managed to rise above Miller in the fan press while she was on the book.

Funnily enough I discussed this subject in a private conversation with The Joker a few years ago, and he also mentioned the Wizard coverage of the Fall from Grace event. Evidently that story got a lot of press attention at the time, which must have helped boost sales (if only temporarily).

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 12 May  2017, 16:18Right. Matt's ethics when it comes to killing are largely based on the principle of double effect.

I've spent the past few years studying Catholicism (not because of Daredevil; it's because I converted). Originally, I just assumed that Murdock being Catholic was just window-dressing Miller added. It didn't add or take away from the character; it just fleshed him out a bit.

But when I began my studies, I realized that a lot of Murdock's moral universe and worldview are VERY Catholic. The double-effect you mention is something the Church has taught for a long time. It shows me that Miller wasn't just inventing stuff out of whole cloth. He really had his thinking cap on when he came up with the Catholic angle.

At one point, you said that Daredevil is probably the most textured and nuanced character in mainstream superhero comics. I neither agreed nor disagreed with that statement. But the more I think about it, the more I realize how complicated Murdock really is.

You specifically excluded Batman from consideration because reasons. I came to realize that you were right to do so. Batman has been Adam West and he has also been Ben Affleck. He has been drawn by Dick Sprang and he has also been drawn by Kelley Jones. There's no single approach to Batman.

But Daredevil... mostly he's always been Daredevil. Elements have been added but the core substance was there from the beginning. There's an incredible level of consistency to Daredevil that even a lot of other Marvel characters can't match. And there's also a sophistication (as you know) that stuns me every time.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 12 May  2017, 16:18I've got to admit, I do kind of miss those gimmicks. I had the original issues of Miller's Man Without Fear miniseries when I was a kid, and they all had cool red tinfoil colours. The only other time I remember Marvel going to that effort for Daredevil in the nineties was the Fall from Grace arc.

Though I do remember the glow-in-the-dark cover for one of the FFG issues stank really bad, so maybe it's a good thing they abandoned that particular gimmick.

I do as well. And we'd probably still have those enhanced covers these days except for simple economics. Cover enhancements inflated cover prices between 30%-60%. When cover prices start range from $0.75 to $1.50, people can roll with it. People didn't mind paying between $1.95-$2.95 per issue back in 1993.

But when cover prices start off at $3.99 and only go up from there... well, most people probably don't want to pay $5.25-$7.95 per issue these days.

And even those numbers presuppose a standard 22-page comic. But enhanced covers were often used on issues with additional pages, which means the price goes up even more.

So basically if the collector version of Batman #500 came out today, it would probably have a cover price hovering between $8-10.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun,  7 May  2017, 02:33Much of the excitement in Wizard and other places either didn't mention Miller or else said words to the effect of "... hasn't been this exciting since Miller". By itself that's a huge victory. I don't think even Nocenti ever managed to rise above Miller in the fan press while she was on the book.

Funnily enough I discussed this subject in a private conversation with The Joker a few years ago, and he also mentioned the Wizard coverage of the Fall from Grace event. Evidently that story got a lot of press attention at the time, which must have helped boost sales (if only temporarily).[/quote]It was a pretty big deal. The "new" outfit looks a little silly but current standards but in its day it was different, dynamic and exciting. Made to order, really, for where Daredevil was at the time. I knew basically nothing about Daredevil back then... and the only reason I didn't start following the title was because I couldn't afford it on my weekly allowance. It was hard enough keeping up with Batman and Superman.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 12 May  2017, 21:10But Daredevil... mostly he's always been Daredevil. Elements have been added but the core substance was there from the beginning. There's an incredible level of consistency to Daredevil that even a lot of other Marvel characters can't match. And there's also a sophistication (as you know) that stuns me every time.

I'm glad somebody else sees this besides me. A character like Batman may have a better overall mythology than Daredevil when you take into account things like the setting, the villains, the gadgets and so on. But to my mind, Matt is the most consistently fascinating lead character in any superhero comic I've read.

I can't point to something in the Batman films and say "Batman wouldn't do that," because somewhere there's almost certainly a comic where he has done it. Batman is largely defined by external factors: the costume, the gadgets, the vehicles, the hideout. His internal characteristics – his values, his methodology, his temperament – all vary from one incarnation to the next. The Batman of 1940 would deliberately shoot a group of criminals to death from the Batplane. The Batman of 1941 wouldn't. The Keaton Batman would. The B:TAS Batman wouldn't. The Affleck Batman would. And yet they're all Batman. He's not defined by ideology, psychology or faith, but by his more superficial trappings. That's not to say he's a superficial character; his malleability is obviously one of his greatest strengths and has allowed the character to be reinvented for different eras. He can be a moody bloodthirsty avenger, or a squeaky-clean do-gooder. With Batman there's no 100% consistent core to the character beyond the fact he dresses as a bat and is trained to peak physical and mental condition.

I would argue the core of Daredevil is that he's basically a mixture of Sir Thomas More (martyred Catholic lawyer) and Zatoichi (blind martial artist). I can point to something in a Daredevil adaptation and say "Daredevil wouldn't do that," because the character of Matt Murdock is consistently and carefully defined. Take for example the scene in the 2003 film where he murders Quesada. Quesada may have been a lowlife rapist, but there's no way any version of Matt from the comics would intentionally kill a comparatively small threat like that. The only time Matt's done anything comparable in the source material was when he killed Bullseye during Shadowland. And as we've already discussed, that wasn't really Matt. Foggy confirms it in Daredevil Vol 3 #26 (July 2013).


It's not his external qualities that define Daredevil, but his internal. And his internal qualities are vastly complex and oftentimes paradoxical. And yet somehow it all comes together. I think he's a far more literary creation than most other superheroes. And when I say "literary" I mean in the sense of novelistic depth.

On the subject of his beliefs, we're lately seeing a lot of comic publishers injecting religious or ethnic factors into superheroes for the sake of diversity. But in Daredevil's case, his Catholicism wasn't imposed by an editor. It evolved naturally from the character. His name's Murdock, he has red hair, he's from New York, he has an extremely well developed sense of right and wrong, and he believes passionately in the sanctity of human life. Throw in some writers with Catholic backgrounds, such as Tony Isabella and Frank Miller, and his belief system evolved by itself in a totally organic way.

By comparison, Batman's ethics were defined by an editorial mandate from DC editor Whitney Ellsworth in 1940. Bruce Wayne's no kill rule didn't evolve organically. It was shoehorned in overnight and directly contradicted his earlier characterisation. And it's never been completely consistent anyway. It doesn't define him. Frank Miller has said his Batman – the Earth-31 incarnation from The Dark Knight Returns and All-Star Batman & Robin – is also Catholic. Other writers have argued Bruce is Episcopalian. Others say he's an atheist. At the end of the day, Bruce can be any of those things and still be Batman, because his beliefs aren't important to his characterisation. Obviously that's not true with Matt.

Catholicism is also one of the many parallels that exist between Daredevil and Punisher. Frank Castle had trained to be a priest in his youth but left the seminary when he found himself incapable of forgiving criminals (it'll be interesting to see if they reference this in the upcoming TV show). There's a nice moment in DD s2 where Daredevil crosses himself as he's trying to reason with Frank on the waterfront. Apparently this wasn't scripted but was added by Charlie Cox (who also happens to be Catholic in real life). By making that gesture in front of Frank, Matt is revealing something about himself. Something he knows Castle will understand. It's his way of saying, "This is where I'm coming from and this is why I can't condone your actions." I thought that was a neat nonverbal signal that allowed the characters to connect on a deeper philosophical level.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 12 May  2017, 21:10I do as well. And we'd probably still have those enhanced covers these days except for simple economics. Cover enhancements inflated cover prices between 30%-60%. When cover prices start range from $0.75 to $1.50, people can roll with it. People didn't mind paying between $1.95-$2.95 per issue back in 1993.

But when cover prices start off at $3.99 and only go up from there... well, most people probably don't want to pay $5.25-$7.95 per issue these days.

And even those numbers presuppose a standard 22-page comic. But enhanced covers were often used on issues with additional pages, which means the price goes up even more.

So basically if the collector version of Batman #500 came out today, it would probably have a cover price hovering between $8-10.

I knew the nineties speculator boom had devalued comics through overproduction, but for some reason I'd never really considered the inflated cost of the actual production itself until now. When you lay out the numbers like that, the folly of the whole enterprise becomes even more apparent. Still, I'm glad we have our nostalgic memories of The Death of Superman and other similar events from that era. I was too young to appreciate the financial consequences of what was happening at the time, so it didn't sully my enjoyment of those novelty covers.

SPOILER WARNING! Don't read this post if you haven't finished The Defenders. If you have finished it, read on.

In case it wasn't obvious from the end of The Defenders, Charlie Cox has more or less confirmed Born Again for season 3:

QuoteThe ending mirrors a scene from Daredevil: Born Again, a popular arc from the comics. Would you be excited for Born Again to provide the story blueprints for season three of Daredevil?

For sure. That's such an amazing story. Everyone who loves Daredevil loves Born Again. You can't not. And if that's the case, then the implications of that would be very exciting to me. That would be great. Having said that, I know we don't tend to follow any story blueprints too closely, because if you do, then you become a foregone conclusion. There may be elements from Born Again, but I'm sure there will be elements that are unfamiliar and surprising and different in order for the show to be compelling to fans who know the comics very well. If we start making Born Again page-for-page, then the people who have read it and loved it — the hardcore fans — they won't have too much drama.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/defenders-charlie-cox-whats-next-daredevil-1031159

This sounds perfect to me. So far the Netflix series has done a sterling job of adapting classic comics in such a way that captures the key events and most important themes, while integrating them into the wider ongoing story and adding a fresh spin for the MCU. Frank Miller has always been the starting point for this show. They've already covered most of his classic Daredevil stories:

•   The Man Without Fear
•   Gang War (and Love and War)
•   Daredevil vs. Punisher
•   The Elektra saga
•   Elektra Lives Again

The only major Miller Daredevil stories remaining are Born Again and the Bullseye saga. We know we're getting one of those in season 3. How about the other?

The two most important casting announcements for the next season will be:

•   Who is playing Sister Maggie?
•   Who is playing Bullseye?

Of equal interest will be Elektra's role, or lack thereof. I expect she'll appear in some capacity, if only during flashbacks revealing how Matt got from the tunnels beneath Midland Circle to Maggie's church. But I don't want her dominating another season at this point. I felt like they finally got Elektra right in The Defenders. Now I'm happy for her to step aside. Punisher and Elektra dominated DD s2. Season 3 needs to focus on Matt, Fisk and (hopefully) Bullseye.

Filming of season 3 is scheduled to begin on October 15th and end on June 30th 2018.

https://mcuexchange.com/daredevil-season-3-production-timeline/

Even allowing for a Christmas break, that's a much longer shoot than the first two seasons. Seasons 1 and 2 took around 5½ months to film, followed by around 3-4 months of postproduction. This means we're unlikely to see season 3 until around September or October 2018 at earliest. Unless of course they finish early and bring the release date forward.

But why the longer shoot? It's still only 13 episodes.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  1 Feb  2017, 00:22
I enjoy the 2003 Daredevil movie as a noble failure. It got far more right than it did wrong. Ultimately I think it aimed for too much. It put Daredevil through a slightly deconstructive character arc you'd think should wait for a sequel.

A fun but slightly dark intro movie pitting Daredevil against Kingpin and Bullseye followed by a more introspective, grittier character piece sequel featuring Elektra would've been a solid one-two combo. Basically even the director's cut (hell, especially the director's cut) is a trilogy all in one movie. As such, none of the passages and movements really have a chance to breathe.

Then again, how many movies can be accused of having too many good ideas, too many good characters, too much good acting? A noble failure.

Sorry for quoting you six months later but I avoided this thread until I finished season 2 of Daredevil which I did tonight (I watch extremely little Netflix these days.)

The reason the theatrical Daredevil film failed lies within your post; the reason why the director's cut did not become the theatrical version. Initially the movie was greenlit as an R-rated movie. It was filmed with the intention of what later became the director's cut, to be the R-Rated release. Once spider-man came out and made a massive profit, Fox (the studio producing daredevil at the time) increased the budget on Daredevil, which was in itself in post production, ordering the film be reshot and recut for a PG rating hence why plotlines such as Coolio high on drugs allegedly murdering a prostitute had to get cut from the film despite opening up plotholes.

We'll never know but if Fox didn't crack the hammer at the 11th hour and order for a PG rating instead of letting Ben Affleck and Mark Steven Johnson bring home the film they envisioned,  history would have certainly gone differently.

Filming on season 3 should be starting any day now, if it hasn't already. In the meantime we have a couple of news updates.

It's been confirmed Vincent D'Onofrio is returning as Fisk. I'm sure everyone was already expecting this, what with the Born Again angle and all.

Less expected is the change of showrunner. Steven S. DeKnight served as showrunner on season 1, while Douglas Petrie and Marco Ramirez assumed the role for both season 2 and The Defenders. Now Erik Oleson is taking over as showrunner for season 3. Oleson's background includes working as a writer and executive producer on The Man in the High Castle. Apparently he also used to work on Arrow, so he's got some experience with comic book adaptations. Will he be the next Steven S. DeKnight or the next Scott Buck? Time will tell. But I think it's good to shake things up once in a while and keep the show fresh. Especially after the rather underwhelming first season of The Defenders.

But still no word on Bullseye. :(

Anyway, here's a charming extended conversation between Jeph Loeb and The Man Without Fear himself.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 26 Oct  2017, 17:04
Filming on season 3 should be starting any day now, if it hasn't already. In the meantime we have a couple of news updates.

It's been confirmed Vincent D'Onofrio is returning as Fisk. I'm sure everyone was already expecting this, what with the Born Again angle and all.

Less expected is the change of showrunner. Steven S. DeKnight served as showrunner on season 1, while Douglas Petrie and Marco Ramirez assumed the role for both season 2 and The Defenders. Now Erik Oleson is taking over as showrunner for season 3. Oleson's background includes working as a writer and executive producer on The Man in the High Castle. Apparently he also used to work on Arrow, so he's got some experience with comic book adaptations. Will he be the next Steven S. DeKnight or the next Scott Buck? Time will tell. But I think it's good to shake things up once in a while and keep the show fresh. Especially after the rather underwhelming first season of The Defenders.

But still no word on Bullseye. :(

Anyway, here's a charming extended conversation between Jeph Loeb and The Man Without Fear himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILWnIP-Nd5Q&t=2078s

I like the idea of a different showrunner every season. Let every season stand out on it's own, part of how Marvel is keeping the MCU so fresh is by using a variety of directors to give their films individual feels.

Quote from: riddler on Fri, 27 Oct  2017, 14:16
I like the idea of a different showrunner every season. Let every season stand out on it's own, part of how Marvel is keeping the MCU so fresh is by using a variety of directors to give their films individual feels.

I'd be down with that. There's no denying some staleness has crept in with the last few Marvel Netflix shows. Perhaps regularly changing showrunner is the solution to the problem.

Meanwhile Steven DeKnight has said he'd be up for helming a six episode prequel series about Fisk, based on Brubaker's Return of the King arc:

https://www.cbr.com/daredevil-kingpin-tv-miniseries/

They already referenced that storyline quite heavily in episode 8 of the first season of Daredevil. But at this point, more of D'Onofrio's Kingpin can only be a good thing.

Set pics from season 3.


And some season 1 concept art showing D'Onofrio in Fisk's classic comic book outfit.

I checked, double-checked and then, to be on the safe side, consulted with three different teams of experts.

But in the end, yes, those findings are nothing but awesome with a side of epic.

Willow star Joanne Whalley is playing Sister Maggie.

Quote"We are big fans of Joanne's work and are fortunate that someone of her caliber will be joining our already talented family," said Marvel TV boss and Daredevil EP Jeph Loeb today of Whalley joining the cast with Cox, a returning Vincent D'Onofrio plus series regulars Deborah Ann Woll and Elden Henson. "Joanne is a rare talent and a terrific creative collaborator," declared Oleson. "Watching her bring her role to life has the writers all pinching ourselves."

https://deadline.com/2018/01/marvels-daredevil-joanne-whalley-netflix-cast-series-1202269118/

Which means Matt Murdock's former stepdad is...

Joe Quesada has released the first official poster art for season 3.

Daredevil is my favorite of the Netflix series. My hope is that the story doesn't go too far up its own @$$ the way, ahem, some of those Netflix shows do. It would be nice for one of these shows to adapt a story and explore it fully instead of being more superficial with it.

Joe Quesada has unveiled some variant cover art for Daredevil #600, including a 'Charlie Cox convention exclusive' cover.

Fine by me, all of them. Apart from One More Day, the only real complaint I have about Joe Q's stint as EIC was how it took him off the table for art on a regular basis. For my money, he's one of the great artists of his generation. He's right up there with Jim Lee in terms of pure eye candy. Different styles, obviously, but to me they're very much peers of one another.

More Quesada art, especially of Daredevil, is automatically a positive thing in my book.

I like the Jim Lee analogy. He and Quesada share a similar clear, precise consistency of form. Few artists are so dependable.

The importance of Quesada's behind-the-scenes contribution to Daredevil also cannot be overstated. He was the brains behind the Marvel Knights imprint which saved the DD comics from declining sales in the late nineties. He assembled a winning line-up of writers such as Mack, Bendis and Brubaker to ensure the title's longevity. He's executive producer on the TV show and helped update many of the classic costumes for live action.


A major weakness common to the other Marvel Netflix shows IMO is the lack of recognisable iconography translated from the comics. But DD has so far managed to skirt that issue, striking a satisfying balance between grounded verisimilitude and classic comic book visuals. Quesada deserves some of the credit for this.


It was also Quesada's idea to cast Charlie Cox in the lead role. And then of course there are the many classic comics he's illustrated over the years, such as Daredevil: Father (which he also wrote) and Guardian Devil. His love of the character is obvious. Apparently he even has framed art from DD Vol 1 #1 mounted on his wall at home. Without his guiding hand I fear DD might have slipped into irrelevancy many years ago, and perhaps even cancellation.

Quite true. My view is that any character of genuine merit will eventually get his day in the sun, given enough time. It bothered me for a lot of years that the character was so defined by Frank Miller to a lot of comic fans. Kevin Smith fell into that trap of thinking... at the same moment he was writing the first truly powerful Daredevil story in a long time.

People can love or hate Smith but he was a huge step in Daredevil being reevaluated by the public. Maybe there's more to this character than Miller's whims?

And you're right, Quesada gets credit for Marvel Knights in the first place and extra credit for drawing that Smith storyline. I sincerely don't believe Smith's story would be as highly regarded as it is if Quesada hadn't done the art. My hunch is that Marvel would've panicked and either thrown Mark Bagley or [insert first name here] Kubert on the book... and it wouldn't have that same quality to it.

MAYBE Scott McDaniel could've hit a similar tone as Quesada. But I don't know.

In the end, volume 2 started with the right writer and artist. It's undeniable. Quesada saved Daredevil... and I'm relatively sure he saved Marvel in general. The man is owed a tremendous debt of gratitude.

It's often been said that Smith's run benefited from the works of his successors. Bendis in particular used the events of Guardian Devil as the foundation for several of his own story arcs, and did so in such a way that helped legitimise some of Smith's bolder creative choices. But even without taking into account what came afterwards, I still enjoy Guardian Devil on its own merits. It makes an earnest attempt to engage with ambitious themes and portrays developments that had a permanent impact on Matt Murdock's life. And of course the art is beautiful. It's very telling that the 2003 film begins and ends with visual nods to Quesada's work.


Smith has a rather fanboyish habit of retreading familiar ground when writing for established titles (see how he references Miller and Englehart in his Batman comics), and Guardian Devil is essentially his version of Born Again: a villain discovers Daredevil's secret identity and embarks on a crusade to break his spirit, Maggie features prominently, Matt's faith is tested, and Karen is caught in the crossfire with tragic consequences. It still retains enough unique qualities to distinguish itself as a separate story, but the reverence for Born Again is a little obvious in places. Even so, I rate it as one of the best Daredevil stories of the nineties. I'd definitely rank it above Miller's The Man Without Fear, though I expect many fans would disagree with me on that.

This figurine offers an awesome template for what the season 3 costume ought to look like. There's been no official word on whether or not Matt is getting a new outfit this year, but I'm assuming he will receive an upgrade based on what happened in The Defenders finale. And if he does, it should look something like this.


It wouldn't be too big a leap from Matt's season 2/Defenders suit. The mask and gloves are already similar.

Production on season 3 has been noticeably more secretive than on the first two seasons. But with filming nearly complete, some interesting info has surfaced. Firstly there are rumours circulating that Wilson Bethel, who was previously reported to be playing an FBI agent named Steve, is in fact portraying Bullseye.
http://thathashtagshow.com/2018/05/exclusive-wilson-bethel-to-portray-bullseye-in-daredevil-season-3/


There was a report on Reddit a while back claiming that Bullseye would indeed feature in the new season; and that while he wouldn't be wearing his traditional costume, his portrayal was said to be 'legit scary'. Right now these are just rumours, so take them with a pinch of salt.
https://mcuexchange.com/rumor-bullseye-daredevil-season-3/

Secondly there are reports that Matt will revert to his black vigilante suit, at least for the first few episodes of season 3. New location pics appear to confirm this, unless of course they're filming a flashback scene.


I hope he'll also wear the red suit again at some point. It'd be lame if Daredevil, the one Marvel show which has embraced its comic book imagery, ends up ditching it in the third season. Quesada's teaser art included the red suit, so I'm assuming it will eventually return.

Thirdly – and this is pure conjecture on my part – but I noticed the IMDb cast list for episode 11 includes several characters named 'Panicked Parishioner', suggesting a violent sequence taking place in or around a church. Could this be a nod to the church massacre from Guardian Devil?

I rather like how Bullseye has been built up to. He's really one of the last of the Miller All-Stars who hasn't gotten any screen time in the show yet. I could've handled one more season before seeing Elektra, tbh.

Speaking of... yeah, I guess that Miller issue is out of the question now since, y'know, Elektra has already died and stuff on the show.

*sigh*

I don't have an issue with Elektra's death in the TV series. One problem with the Daredevil comics is that they tend to repeat the same storylines over and over:

•   Matt suffers an identity crisis or mental breakdown
•   A villain launches an ongoing campaign to break Daredevil's spirit (the earliest variation of this plotline appeared in the late Silver Age, though Born Again is the most famous example)
•   Matt fakes his own death (I can think of at least 3 or 4 examples of this off the top of my head) and/or adopts a new persona as a sighted person (Mike Murdock, Jack Batlin)
•   Bullseye kills Daredevil's love interest (Elektra, Karen, his hypothetical future wife Stana Morgan from Daredevil Vol 4 1.50)
•   Foggy and Matt have a falling out and dissolve their partnership
•   Daredevil's girlfriend turns out to be his latest enemy (Elektra, Typhoid Mary, Echo)

I've always felt that if they use any of these storylines in the TV show, they should only use them once – meaning Bullseye should only kill one of Matt's love interests. And Karen is the logical choice. From the perspective of Elektra's character arc, I don't think it really matters if it was Bullseye or Nobu who killed her. The important part is that she was stabbed to death with her own sai and resurrected by the Hand for use in one of their rituals. Her death in the comics had an intense but ephemeral  impact which was undermined by her subsequent resurrection anyway. By contrast, Karen's death was permanent and had a long-lasting effect on Matt that's still in evidence to this day. Bullseye killing Karen in season 3 would be far more dramatic than if he'd killed Elektra in season 2. And it can still serve the same function in intensifying the hatred between Daredevil and Bullseye as Elektra's death did in Daredevil Vol 1 #181.

I also appreciate how the makers of the TV series are trying to avoid retreading ground from the 2003 film. I'd argue Elektra's character arc in that movie was closer to Echo's storyline from David Mack's Parts of a Hole (Daredevil Vol 2 #9-15, July 1999-April 2001) than Miller's original 'Elektra Saga', but the depiction of her death scene was straight out of DD #181. If they'd had Bullseye and Elektra in the same season, anyone who'd seen the movie would have known exactly how it was going to end. To be fair, you could also make that argument about Daredevil season 3 – that Bullseye's inclusion portends Karen's death. But I wouldn't be surprised if they had Bullseye kill another major character instead as a way of subverting the expectations of diehard comic fans. Maybe he'll kill Marci, Lantom, Maggie or even Foggy.

D'Onofrio recently posted the following image on Twitter after he completed filming on season 3:


That same week, Ayelet Zurer posted this image on her Instagram page:


And someone in the costume department posted this pic, showing the season 3 logo embellished with a Bullseye symbol:


Unless this is deliberate misdirection, it looks like those Bullseye rumours are true.

With that jacket as a tease, it would seem a bit dishonest to me if they don't go all the way and showcase Bullseye in some way or another.

One thing I like about how things are shaping up with this show is that D'Onofrio is being used as a recurring villain rather than a one-off. The relative lack of Kingpin in season 2 kind of primes the pump for whatever's coming in season 3.

If they're going in a Born Again'ish type of direction for this season (A) it's a fairly logical time to do so (B) the return of the Kingpin plays perfectly with that and (C) as you say above, there's an opportunity for Bullseye to pick off one of the core cast members as the Kingpin dismantles Matt's entire life.

Then again, an argument can be made that Matt has basically already lost almost everything by the end of Defenders anyway. So hmm.

Even though he doesn't appear onscreen until the end of episode 3, I'd say Fisk was as much the lead character in the first season as Murdock. That was one of the season's main strengths. The marketing was heavily focused on the complementarity between hero and villain, with the first trailer focussing more on Daredevil...


...while the second focused more on Kingpin.


The trailer song, 'Beautiful Crime', was the perfect lyrical commentary on the two characters and their antagonistic relationship. The words could be expressing Matt's feelings towards Karen, or Fisk's emotional dependence on Vanessa. Or maybe the song is expressing Matt and Fisk's identification with one another.


Hopefully they can replicate that wonderful hero/villain dynamic in season 3. And I can't wait to see how Bullseye fits into the equation.

Here's Charlie Cox's recent appearance at Comicpalooza. No spoilers, but he drops some interesting hints about season 3.


A few highlights:

•   This convention took place back in May, and Cox says they'd already finished filming on season 3. Seasons 1 and 2 were released about 3-4 months after filming concluded, which would put season 3 in a September-October release window. That means we should be getting a teaser trailer very soon.

•   Cox says he thought Ben Affleck gave a great performance as Daredevil, but he didn't like the 2003 film as a whole.

•   He tells a funny story about how he donated his red glasses from season 1 to a charity auction to benefit the blind. When he saw how low the bids were, he entered his own bid and ended up buying back his glasses for $500. He then had to awkwardly cue up to collect them in front of the entire auction.

•   When asked which fight scene was the most challenging to film, Cox cites an upcoming fight from season 3 as the one he's most proud of. He says most of the hallway fight in season 1 was performed by his stunt double, while he did at least 50% of the stairwell fight in season 2 himself. He also states that he's performed a higher percentage of his own fight scenes in season 3 than in the previous seasons, having now spent around 4 years training in martial arts.

•   Joe Quesada gave Cox the original art work from page 1 of Daredevil: Father as a gift on his first day of filming season 1.

•   When asked which DC Comics character he'd like to play, he reluctantly answers Wonder Woman.

•   He hasn't seen Infinity War.

I'm assuming the fight scene Cox refers to as his favourite will be season 3's answer to the one-shot hallway and stairwell fights from the first two seasons. I can't wait to see how they top those two. On the subject of fight scenes, it looks as though Philip J. Silvera will not be returning as choreographer on season 3. That's a shame. But the good news is Chris Brewster has been chosen to replace him. For those who don't know, Brewster is Charlie Cox's fight double and also performed Cap's fight scenes in Captain America: The Winter Soldier. He previously choreographed the martial arts scenes in the DD season 1 episode 'World on Fire', which included this excellent sequence.


I'm sorry to see Silvera leave, but I'm glad to see the fight choreography pass to the capable hands of Brewster. I'm looking forward to seeing what he and the stunt team can deliver.

I've been thinking a lot lately about how Bullseye should be depicted in this series. My fear is that they might screw him up the way they botched Nuke in Jessica Jones season 1. I'm also afraid that with a new showrunner at the helm, Daredevil might succumb to the same bland visual identity as the other Netflix shows. The first two seasons of DD struck the perfect balance between realism and comic book fantasy, utilising visuals that were grounded while still preserving the important iconography from the source material. The other Marvel Netflix shows have generally failed in this regard and none have been anywhere near as visually impressive as DD. I'm worried the new showrunner might take DD in a similar direction, though this might just be paranoia stemming from my disappointment with the other MCU Netflix shows. Hopefully Daredevil will stick to its own established identity, both visually and tonally.

Getting back to Bullseye, I think he really ought to wear a costume of some kind. He's a narcissist. A showman. He wants the world to see him and know how great he is. He designed his own target emblem to attract attention. He wants a high profile. He wants notoriety. At the very least, he needs some version of the target emblem on his forehead. It could be a mask, it could be a scar, it could be a tattoo. One idea I had was that if he does wear a mask, he could get shot in the forehead and the bullet could crack the faceplate to create concentric fractures resembling his classic target emblem. Alternatively, if they didn't want him to wear a mask, they could have him sport black and grey urban camouflage applied in a pattern approximating the shape of his mask.


This would also be a neat way of foreshadowing the makeup worn by Lady Bullseye.


Bullseye's appearance has changed quite a bit over the years, which offers some leeway in how they might portray him. Firstly there's his classic blue/black and white costume which he's worn throughout the majority of his appearances.


Originally he sported short blonde hair beneath his costume. Actor Wilson Bethel is a good physical match for how the unmasked Bullseye looked during the Bronze Age.


Then there's his bearded, shaven-headed trench coat look with the target branded on his forehead. This was created for the 2003 movie but also featured in the comics for a time back in the noughties. However in the comics he remained clean-shaven, and the target on his forehead was painted/tattooed rather than branded. That is until Daredevil carved it into his forehead in Daredevil Vol 2 #49 (September 2003), after which it became a scar.


Occasionally artists have combined his classic outfit with his noughties look, incorporating his old costume, minus the mask, with his bald head and target-shaped scar.


I'd love it if he wore his classic outfit in the TV show, but I don't think it'll happen. Apparently it was Joe Quesada who suggested Bullseye's revised look in the 2003 movie. And since Quesada has been instrumental in reimagining the other comic book costumes for the TV show, I expect he'll come up with something new for Bullseye. Ideally I'd like him to wear some kind of body armour, even if it's just the black SWAT uniform the sniper wore in season 1.


And as I've already said, they need to reference the target emblem on his forehead at some point. Get those two things right, and I'll be happy.

With Luke Cage season 2 coming out tomorrow, there should be a preview clip or trailer for DD season 3 after the final episode. We might even get a release date. If not, I'm sure we'll get some info at Comic-Con next month.

Marvel has announced its line-up of panels for Comic-Con and Daredevil is nowhere to be seen:
https://news.marvel.com/tv/90497/marvel-television-animation-san-diego-comic-con-sdcc-2018/

Rant time.

Ok, so Marvel originally announced their 2018 TV line-up would proceed in the following order: Jessica Jones s2, Luke Cage s2, Daredevil s3, The Punisher s2, followed by Iron Fist s2 in early 2019. They've now announced that Iron Fist s2 is coming out next, on September 7th. That's more or less when I was expecting Daredevil season 3 to come out. Which means DD s3 has been delayed. :(

So when is DD s3 coming out now? There's still no official word. But since Marvel is keen to maintain the 2-3 month gap between each of their shows, it's a safe bet it won't be out any earlier than November. That's assuming they push The Punisher season 2 back to Iron Fist's original slot in early 2019 and give DD s3 the slot that was originally planned for The Punisher. But I'm wondering if they might simply delay DD until 2019 and let The Punisher keep its November-December release window. That way The Punisher's second season would be released at the same time of year as the first one was. And they could delay DD so it comes out at Easter, like the first two seasons did. But that would mean the gap between seasons 2 and 3 would be literally three years!

It's one thing for a show to be cancelled, or put on hiatus, and then return three years later. But for a show that's meant to be in continual production to take this long is just absurd. Tomorrow, July 21st, will mark the two-year anniversary of the first (and only) DD s3 teaser.


"SEASON 3 COMING SOON." And here we are, two years later, and we still don't even have a release date, a trailer or any official photographs. After this long a wait, Daredevil season 3 had better be a game-changing masterpiece that sets a new gold standard for the genre, like the first season did back in 2015.

On top of this, Marvel has also announced that Alice Eve is playing Typhoid Mary in Iron Fist season 2. Typhoid is one of Daredevil's greatest enemies in the comics, and I was hoping she might be the main antagonist in DD season 4. I don't mind too much if they introduce her in IF and then have her show up to face DD in his own series. But if they kill her off before she meets Fisk or Matt, it'll be a terrible waste. I'm getting tired of these other Marvel TV shows stealing villains from the Daredevil comics and then concluding their storylines before they get a chance to face Matt. First they did this with Mister Hyde in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. season 2, then with Purple Man and Nuke in Jessica Jones season 1, and now it looks like it might happen again with Typhoid Mary in Iron Fist season 2. Next thing you know, they'll announced Bullseye is the villain in Punisher season 2 and Frank will kill him before he even meets Daredevil. Can't these other heroes get their own villains?

There's the rub. The core members of the New Avengers... sorry, The DEFENDERS mostly don't have much of a rogue's gallery of their own. Daredevil has the strongest showing with villains among the street level Marvel heroes.

It's a bit illogical, really. Very often these characters are so far removed from the source material that they're essentially new characters. May as well be anyway. So why not go the full nine and jettison the two or three pieces of "inspiration" taken from the comics and create wholly new characters?

The lag with Daredevil's third season release date is aggravating. It's even worse than The Man In The High Castle's third season release date, though not by much.

Speaking of, TMITHC is another show that looks like it's going to the dogs. But maybe that's a rant for a different thread.

Then again, maybe it isn't. It's not like there's any Daredevil info to talk about...

D'Onofrio just posted this on his Instagram page with the caption 'WILSON'.


And he posted this on Twitter:

In a recent Deadline article, Netflix VP Cindy Holland was asked about the reason for the delay of DD season 3.

QuoteThe series that launched the Marvel Netflix universe, Daredevil, was renewed for a third season two years ago but that third installment of the show starring Charlie Cox is yet to get a premiere date. Why is that, is there an issue with the show?

"The biggest issue was the timing of production and launching of The Defenders because what that meant is we had to shut down all of the shows, so all the actors be available for The Defenders so it's more function of that," Holland told Deadline. "There is no problem with this season, I think it's fantastic, it's real return to form in my view."

https://deadline.com/2018/07/more-marvel-netflix-series-daredevil-season-3-premiere-date-luke-cage-season-3-renewal-defenders-2-tca-1202436262/

In that case, please never make another season of The Defenders. I enjoyed the first season well enough, but it wasn't worth derailing Daredevil's solo series for this amount of time. Holland's quote about s3 being a "return to form" is encouraging though. At the time, I liked DD s2 more than the first season. But looking back on them now, I think s1 was definitely the best. I still love s2, but it did focus too much on Elektra and the Punisher. Most of the comic villains introduced in that season were adapted from Punisher comics (Finn Cooley, Nesbitt, the Kitchen Irish, Colonel Ray Schoonover, the sniper), while the only new comic villains Matt got were Elektra, Grotto and Lord Hiroshi (and Elektra and Grotto were portrayed as allies). By contrast, s1 introduced Kingpin, Wesley, Turk, Owlsley, Gladiator, Nobu and the Hand. There are so many classic Daredevil villains, they should be adapting at least 4-6 new ones each season. The larger the hierarchy of villains, the less chance there is of the series succumbing to the same pacing issues as the other Marvel Netflix shows.

Right now, I'd willingly sell Daredevil's secret identity to a Mexican drug dealer in exchange for one fix of DD s3. If they could just give us a release date, or one official photo, that would be something at least.

I don't know that I'm buying that explanation. Other series got followups in pretty short order, didn't they? Wasn't the second season of Jessica Jones produced and released after the Daredevil season three teaser came out?

It's hard to remember the chronology of this stuff but I don't think I entirely believe that.

Netflix CEO Ted Sarandos has stated Daredevil season 3 will be released in 2018:

Quote"In the short term, we've got new seasons coming up, in the second half of this year, of Orange is the New Black, Ozark, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Narcos, the finale of House of Cards, the follow-up series to Making a Murderer."

http://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/08/03/daredevil-season-3-premiering-2018-netflix/

If this is true, then it should be landing in November or December. So just another 4-5 months to go. I can wait...

It's already been widely reported that Bethel is playing Bullseye, but here's some additional confirmation.

Here's some interesting news. It seems some critics have already received the first few episodes of season 3. This doesn't usually happen until close to the release date, prompting online speculation that DD s3 might be coming earlier than we thought.

Marvel traditionally screens the first few episodes of the latest Daredevil season at New York Comic Con in October. Obviously there wasn't a season at last year's show, and instead The Punisher season 1 was intended to be the main focus of the Marvel TV panel. Sadly the Las Vegas shooting resulted in The Punisher presentation being cancelled. Afterwards several news outlets reported that Marvel had indeed planned to drop the first season immediately after the panel. Instead the release was delayed until the following month to avoid offending people after the Vegas shooting.

The Punisher s1, like DD s3, was originally given a vague release window towards the end of the year, but no exact date was announced. It looks like Marvel is using the same strategy for DD s3. Are they planning to drop the new season right after the New York Comic Con panel? That would be less than two months from now (October 4th-7th).

Not to sound ranty or anything but I don't understand the fixation for the NY con that Marvel has.

Then again, San Diego is always over-crowded every year with stuff that has nothing to do with comics so choosing a different venue in a less busy time of year could be seen as good marketing.

The first reaction to season 3 is in.


That sounds like a mid-October release date. Two months.

I can wait. I can...

The feature film division so far has mostly specialized in creating individual franchises with awesome first movies (Iron Man, Avengers, etc) which are then followed by lackluster followups (um, Iron Man 2, AOU, etc). Sometimes the third one is an improvement over the second (Iron Man 3) but that shouldn't be assumed.

I am (or I was) slightly concerned that the Netflixverse was trending in the same direction. Daredevil's second season was... good. But less than I'd hoped. Meanwhile, both seasons of Jessica Jones have been great. So hmm.

I couldn't tell you anything about Luke Cage since I gave up on the first season early on and never bothered with the second.

If season 3 of Daredevil is already winning big praise... well, these people are rewarded for gushing reviews. But there's good reason to be cautiously optimistic.

I loved both seasons of Daredevil with an unhealthy passion. The first season is as close to perfect as an origin story can get, and I really dug the heightened comic book sensibility of the second season. Seeing Daredevil and Elektra battle the Hand in live action was awesome, though I realise that a lot of people – including my older brother, who has never read a DD comic in his life – were confused by the more esoteric plot mechanics in the last three or four episodes. That didn't bother me, since I equated the more obscure plot points with comic storylines. But viewers shouldn't have to read the comics in order to understand the plot, and if the show's writers failed to clearly communicate what was happening (and evidently they did) then that's a valid criticism. I also thought the second season dragged a little in the middle and suffered from a disjointed structure that focused a bit too much on the Punisher and Elektra over Matt. But I still loved it overall. And I'm highly optimistic about season 3.

I watched season 1 of Jessica Jones when it first came out and didn't like it much. The cinematography and acting were of the same high quality as Daredevil, and I liked that it had its own distinct tone and visual identity. But I felt the plot was repetitive and kept recycling the same beats over and over: Jessica captures Killgrave, a third party interferes, Killgrave escapes, Jessica captures Killgrave, a third party interferes, Killgrave escapes, over and over. I also didn't like how they removed the Jewel phase from Jessica's back story. In the original Alias comics, Jess was formerly a superhero fangirl and was thrilled to don a costume and fight crime. She actually enjoyed it.


She only relinquished her superhero identity and became a cynic after she'd been abused by Killgrave. The before-and-after contrast between her idealistic younger self and her older cynical self was a powerful indicator of the emotional damage Killgrave had inflicted on her. But in the TV show she was always a cynic from the get go, and she's portrayed as outright contemptuous of the Jewel costume during one of the pre-Killgrave flashback scenes. I thought that undercut her character arc, eliminated the before-and-after dynamic and made her less sympathetic. I also didn't like the revelation that she was raped by Killgrave (she wasn't in the comic) and I hated what they did with Nuke. Oh, and Purple Man should have been Purple. I haven't watched season 2 yet, but most of what I've heard about it has been negative. So I'm not sure I'll bother.

I thought Luke Cage season 1 was ok. Like you, colors, I got bored half way through. I actually gave up the first time I tried watching it, but I went back just before Iron Fist s1 was released and managed to finish it. I don't have too much to say about it really. The show had a nice look and the acting was good. But the meandering plot was painfully slow, there wasn't enough action and it just didn't engage my interest on a meaningful level. But it was ok. It had its moments. I haven't watched season 2 yet, but I might check out a few episodes next time I reactivate my Netflix account. I've heard good things about it.

Iron Fist... I didn't hate it. It has a lot of obvious flaws, but I still think the potential is there for a good show. I will be giving season 2 a chance.

I enjoyed The Defenders, mainly due to the Daredevil content. But remove Daredevil and replace him with any other character and I probably wouldn't have liked it. It offered a disappointing climax to the first phase of the Netflix saga, and the payoff for what the Hand were up to in New York was quite frankly pathetic. But I still enjoyed it.

The Punisher season 1 was good, but not great. I'd rank it as the best solo series after Daredevil. The first half of the season was too slow and retrod too much ground from DD s2. We already watched Frank's journey to becoming the Punisher in DD, but in his solo series he regressed so far that we basically had to re-watch that same journey all over again. Things picked up steam in the second half of the season, and the last few episodes in particular were very intense and showcased some excellent action sequences. It's nowhere near as good as Daredevil, but it's still a decent show. More than any other Netflix character, I think Frank would benefit from a more episodic storytelling approach over the standard serialised narrative. He'd be better off with standalone mission-based stories, rather than a single continuous plot. I'm looking forward to season 2.

Generally speaking, I think the Marvel Netflix shows are on a much higher level than DC's CW shows, but most of them still haven't reached their full potential. They need to improve their pacing problems and embrace the iconography of the source material. Until they do, the only really great one amongst them will be Daredevil. But since Daredevil's the only one I really care about anyway, I'm cool with that.

I dig comic book Jessica but the full disclosure bit is that I'm not overly attached to her. I suspect that's why I rolled with the stuff you mentioned. Still, I do think season 02 kind of mitigates some of those things. Not everything and not entirely. But there's a different spin put on the character that makes you sympathize with her... and still like her even when she does bitchy things.

I don't think watching season 02 would be a complete waste of your time... especially since nothing new is coming for at least another month or two.

If you say JJ s2 is worth watching then I might give it a look after all. My Netflix account is inactive for most of the year and I only reactivate it when there's something I specifically want to see. But I'll be switching it on again for IF s2, so I may as well check out the second seasons of JJ and LC while I'm at it. I don't follow any of the non-Netflix Marvel shows anymore, but I do try to keep abreast with the Netflixverse. I've always thought of it as the MCU's prestige imprint, much like the Marvel Knights line was for the Earth-616 comics back in the late nineties. If Kevin Feige remains steadfast in his refusal to acknowledge any of the Netflix heroes in the Marvel movies, then he's just depriving the fans of something potentially awesome.

Anyway, getting back to Daredevil – Fisk himself has been teasing the new season on Twitter.

Mmm, the Marvel Knights corner of the MCU. I like that.

And what gives with Feige ignoring the Netflix shows? Both JJ seasons, both Daredevil seasons, Defenders and, yes, Iron Fist are more enjoyable to me than anything the MCU has done lately.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 15 Aug  2018, 22:02
And what gives with Feige ignoring the Netflix shows? Both JJ seasons, both Daredevil seasons, Defenders and, yes, Iron Fist are more enjoyable to me than anything the MCU has done lately.

It's rumoured that Feige really hates the Netflix TV side of the MCU. There's even a joke about it in the latest Honest Trailers vid, at the 3:30 mark.


They can keep feeding us these same excuses about scheduling and whatnot, but I'm 95% certain they could make it happen if they really wanted to. As far as I'm aware, there's been no reference to 'The Snap' in any of the MCU Netflix shows so far. They've referenced the Battle of New York from The Avengers (2012), but they haven't referenced the more recent assault on the Big Apple from Infinity War. The excuse Jeph Loeb has given is that all of these shows occur before the events of Infinity War and are thus unaffected by it.

Quote"For the most part our stories will take place BEFORE Thanos clicked his fingers. A lot of that has to do with production and when we are telling our stories vs. when the movies come out. So hang in there. I remember in the comics, one of my favorite stories was the KREE-SKRULL war... which was universal, but in X-Men, no mention. Huh. And it all worked out in the end!"

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/8pbxyk/im_jeph_loeb_head_of_marvel_tv_ama/e0a5ju5/?st=jin7vwvo&sh=20db4551

If that's the case, then why would scheduling issues preclude The Defenders from making a cameo in the next Avengers film? If the movie is taking place in the future, then it won't affect the current storylines in the TV shows – just have the characters show up in the movie, then let the TV writers address the fallout in the next season of each series. Problem solved. If you can get these actors together for a week at Comic-Con, then you can get them together for a week to shoot a cameo in the next Avengers movie.

Unless someone high up doesn't want it to happen.

A season 3 image has leaked online which seems to show Matt stalking a Daredevil imposter at the offices of The New York Bulletin. Matt's wearing the black 'vigilante' costume, while the imposter is wearing the classic red suit.


Some people are claiming the image is a fake, while others are certain it's real. I hope it is real, because it would appear to depict the Daredevil: Born Again scene where Kingpin sends the psycho Daredevil imposter to kill Karen.


I always thought that if they combined Bullseye and Born Again into a single season, it would make sense to have Bullseye himself fill this role in the narrative. Doing so would also echo the classic Ann Nocenti story 'Bullseye!' (Daredevil Vol 1 #290, March 1991) – which happens to have been the very first Daredevil comic I ever read back when I was a kid – in which Bullseye dons Daredevil's costume and goes around stealing, raping and killing in order to destroy Matt's reputation.


Notice in the leaked image how the Daredevil imposter is standing next to a pot of pens and pencils.


This could be our first glimpse of the MCU Bullseye! ;D

Or the image could just be a fake. :(

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 13 Aug  2018, 12:15
The first reaction to season 3 is in.

(https://s8.postimg.cc/t8f0n8w4l/New_Picture.png)

That sounds like a mid-October release date. Two months.

A staff member at spoilertv.com has shared further info to support the mid-October release date theory.


October 12th happens to be a Friday, which is when the Netflix shows are typically released.

A teaser GIF has been posted on the Marvel Twitter page:

https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/1037701996109811713

I'm expecting a more substantial teaser tomorrow with the release of Iron Fist season 2. Meanwhile Deadline has confirmed the Daredevil panel for New York Comic Con next month:

https://deadline.com/2018/09/marvel-daredevil-new-york-comic-con-runaways-the-gifted-1202457426/

FINALLY! This enterprise has been far too slow.

It makes me wonder that there's been some behind the scenes baloney going on. Even these "small" Netflix shows are "franchises" in a certain sense. It's hard to conceive of circumstances for why Daredevil, the cornerstone of the Netflixverse, has been dormant for so long. Office politics might account for that though.

Either way, this is long overdue.

There might well have been some turmoil behind the scenes. When a Netflix VP describes the latest season as "a return to form" then that indicates they're not entirely thrilled with the way Marvel's been handling their more recent output. Daredevil started the Marvel Netflixverse on solid footing, and now it's time for Daredevil to right the ship.

Meanwhile here's the teaser clip that was included after the final episode of Iron Fist.


This 30-second sneak peak is more interesting to me than Black Panther and Infinity War combined. Forget those movies – THIS is the live action superhero event of 2018.

Matt's "darkness only responds to darkness" line makes me think he might finally break his moral code this season, or at least he'll try to. I'm guessing the priest's side of the confessional is empty during this sequence, which would make this the TV show's version of the scene from the 'Purgatory' chapter of Born Again where Matt appears to be talking to Foggy on the phone, when in reality he's talking to himself.


The teaser also reminds me of a scene from 'Cremains' (Daredevil Vol 1 #267, June 1989) where Matt goes to confession wearing his costume.


I am so ready for this. Bring on the trailer!

Netflix have released a better quality version of the teaser on YouTube.

In a since deleted Tweet, Netflix Thailand appear to have leaked the release date as October 19th, which is one week after the review embargo ends (October 12th).


So that's a little over five weeks from now.

It's getting a little absurd. If October 19th is the day, they now have less than a month to promote it.

I guess it doesn't matter though. Daredevil seems to be the most popular Netflixverse show so maybe the hype builds itself now.

October 19th confirmed!


And here's the new teaser.


Gothic visuals...


...white suit Kingpin...


...coming out four weeks tomorrow!

Four weeks and a day.

It's about freaking time. The tone of that teaser could be hinting at Murdock embracing a darker side this season. And considering what he's been through "lately" (eg, the last four years, including two years of waiting), it's understandable that he'd be in a bad mood. But then, Defenders suggested that we'd be in a for a quasi-Born Again storyline. So hmm.

This could go either way.

Born Again would appear to be the main comic influence, as Charlie Cox confirms in this clip.


There are rumours that season 3 will also incorporate elements of Guardian Devil and The Murdock Papers. The Guardian Devil influence is effectively confirmed in the following image released by Entertainment Weekly.



Either that or they're paying homage to the opening scene of the 2003 film.


Showrunner Erik Oleson has spoken to EW about the new season:

Quote"Matt starts the season broken physically, broken emotionally, and broken spiritually. He's angry at God, he's angry at the fact that he had risked his life to do God's work, and he's questioning whether or not he was a fool.

Matt goes to pretty much the darkest place you can. When he realizes that he's incapable of being Daredevil, he would rather just end it than go forward in his life without abilities. He's decided to set aside his Matt Murdock persona and just be the Devil, to isolate the lighter part of himself."

Here's a new image depicting the reunion of Matt and Foggy.


Oleson commented on this relationship in the EW interview:

Quote"Foggy has been trying to move on from Matt's memory, or at least move on with his life. If you thought one of your close friends was dead and he decided not to tell you he survived, you would probably have some issues with that."

The article also includes the following descriptions of three new characters.

Sister Maggie: "a tough, Hell's Kitchen-born-and-bred nun."

FBI Agent Ray: "carries the heart of the season."

Wilson Bethel's character: "a psychologically tortured FBI sharpshooter [who] could teeter towards good or towards evil, depending on who is manipulating or inspiring him."

I wonder who that last character might be...


Oleson made the following remarks concerning Fisk:

Quote"Fisk has gotten smarter, more calculated, and more manipulative. I very much wanted to tell a story that's relevant to the world around us. I looked at the show as a way to examine how tyrants manipulate in order to push their own agenda and cause fear and distrust."

He also addressed the difficulties in picking up where The Defenders left off:

Quote"I came in with a pitch that took pieces of some of my favorite comic book runs, that told a larger story, and I was expecting to get more pushback, but Marvel was incredibly excited about the storyline. They let me tell the story I wanted to tell.... I wasn't sure, given the events of Defenders, how much freedom I would have, and I ended up getting complete freedom."

Jeph Loeb pitched in with the following:

Quote
"Our first problem in front of us was that Matt Murdock was dead, so how are we going to fix that in a way that didn't feel like it's been done before? So when we first sat down with Erik, we had a fairly good idea as to what we wanted to tackle in terms of story, and then Erik had a great deal of freedom with where he was going to take that story.... [Season 3] goes very much back to the world of the crime story. This will be a very memorable season."

You can read the full EW article here: https://ew.com/tv/2018/09/21/daredevil-season-3-photos-showrunner-interview/

Meanwhile JoBlo.com editor-in-chief Paul Shirey has shared his thoughts on the first six episodes.


Four weeks today!

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 21 Sep  2018, 17:56There are rumours that season 3 will also incorporate elements of Guardian Devil and The Murdock Papers. The Guardian Devil influence is effectively confirmed in the following image released by Entertainment Weekly.

And...

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 21 Sep  2018, 17:56Wilson Bethel's character: "a psychologically tortured FBI sharpshooter [who] could teeter towards good or towards evil, depending on who is manipulating or inspiring him."

I wonder who that last character might be...

(https://i.giphy.com/media/x46o77CYhWDqeV1eSK/giphy.gif)

And...

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 21 Sep  2018, 17:56Matt goes to pretty much the darkest place you can. When he realizes that he's incapable of being Daredevil, he would rather just end it than go forward in his life without abilities. He's decided to set aside his Matt Murdock persona and just be the Devil, to isolate the lighter part of himself."

These factors go a long way toward supporting your theory about Karen Page's fate at the hands of Bullseye.

And from a narrative standpoint, if Karen kicks the bucket before the end of episode 6, I could see why the reviewers who have seen those episodes are chomping at the bit to get more of the story. That development would go a long way toward pushing Murdock toward the darkness that the crew seem to want for the character this season.

It's enough to make me wonder what the better approach to the story might be. The death of Karen Page as Murdock's girlfriend is a certain type of gut-punch. But the death of Karen Page as Murdock's unrequited whatever is a different type of tragedy, if only because he'd spend the rest of his days (or at least a very long time) wondering what might have been.

So in a certain sense, there's arguably more drama for Netflix Matt to lose Karen than there was for comic book Matt. Because comic book Matt and comic book Karen had experienced their share of ups and downs. But in the main, they had a good run together while Netflix Matt and Netflix Karen have been more uneven and overall less intimate with each other. Losing Karen under these Netflix circumstances could be an even more shattering loss for Matt precisely because he will never experience the good times that comic book Matt and comic book Karen got to share and he knows it.

This could be an interesting development.

Fisk's role in all this is open to speculation. Since it looks like he'll be more Kingpin-esque this season, it's fair to suggest that he could be using Bullseye as a hit man to take out Daredevil. That much seems kind of obvious. But what I like about how it sounds like the issue will be handled in the show is Kingpin seducing Bullseye into embracing the darkness.

Fisk in the comics taints everything he touches. Netflix Fisk has a fairly positive vision for the city and uses horrible means to make it into reality. The idea of him abandoning even the superficial trappings of benevolent goals in favor of slowly poisoning someone and making that person his personal weapon is a powerful development for Fisk.

It also gives Matt an objective. A strange push-and-pull for Bullseye's soul carried by Murdock and Fisk is the stuff good drama is made of. And if Bullseye ultimately chooses the good this season (for the short term at least) (which could happen because Netflix) then Matt's arc could revolve around him questioning his own prospects for redemption.

Because if Bullseye can find his way back to the light, what does that suggest for Murdock?

Then again, I could be reading entirely too much into all this.

Either way, season 03 can't get here fast enough!

I'm going to be cautious and not to get too overhyped for Season 3, because I haven't been too impressed with three out of the four Netflix Marvel shows last year. I thought the debut season of Luke Cage had a strong first half but then it quickly fell apart as soon as they killed off Copperhead and Diamondback wasn't anywhere near as good as the villain. Iron Fist was mediocre, and honestly, Defenders was a huge disappointment. The criticisms I had with DD Season 2 over its treatment of the Hand and Elektra only intensified in the crossover, and I wasn't too impressed with Murdock's apparent death in the end either. In my opinion, the Punisher show was the only show that stood out last year. I thought 2017 just wasn't a good year for Marvel, whether it's MCU or Netflix.

But while I've gotten tired of the MCU now, I haven't given up on Netflix yet. I've been catching up on the second season of Jessica Jones and I'm really enjoying it so far, and I still plan to watch the second seasons of both LC and IF, and of course, DD Season 3. I'm curious to see how it will deal with Matt's return and how it deals with Fisk suspicion of his alter ego as Daredevil, as he did in the second season. Fingers crossed.

Here's another new pic.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Sep  2018, 02:28Fisk's role in all this is open to speculation. Since it looks like he'll be more Kingpin-esque this season, it's fair to suggest that he could be using Bullseye as a hit man to take out Daredevil. That much seems kind of obvious. But what I like about how it sounds like the issue will be handled in the show is Kingpin seducing Bullseye into embracing the darkness.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Sep  2018, 02:28It also gives Matt an objective. A strange push-and-pull for Bullseye's soul carried by Murdock and Fisk is the stuff good drama is made of. And if Bullseye ultimately chooses the good this season (for the short term at least) (which could happen because Netflix) then Matt's arc could revolve around him questioning his own prospects for redemption.

Because if Bullseye can find his way back to the light, what does that suggest for Murdock?

This aspect of the new season is particularly intriguing. Bullseye is not a complicated character in the comics and his origin story remains largely unconfirmed. There are conflicting reports that he killed his father, briefly played in the Major League and was once a Vietnam vet, mercenary or NSA agent, but there's never been a definitive concrete account of this sequence of events. The upside of this is that it gives the show's writers considerable leeway in how they depict his origins. An FBI sharpshooter would be consistent with the comics that have portrayed him as a government-trained killer gone rogue.

The "depending on who is manipulating or inspiring him" quote opens up some interesting possibilities. Did Daredevil inspire him? Does his obsession with Daredevil begin as admiration but then warp into something darker? Will he try to fill in for the absent Daredevil, similar to how Danny Rand did during Ed Brubaker's run? If Fisk is indeed responsible for manipulating him, then how does he go about doing this, and why? I think there are going to be some surprising twists here, even for us comic fans. As long as Bullseye ends up becoming the same coldblooded killer we all know and hate, then I'm happy for the writers to flesh out his origins and psychological profile a bit.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Sep  2018, 02:28Fisk in the comics taints everything he touches. Netflix Fisk has a fairly positive vision for the city and uses horrible means to make it into reality. The idea of him abandoning even the superficial trappings of benevolent goals in favor of slowly poisoning someone and making that person his personal weapon is a powerful development for Fisk.

Right. Fisk was holding back in season 1 because of his self-deluding sense of moral righteousness. Now that he's come to accept himself as the villain of the story – "the ill intent" – he'll no longer be fettered by a misguided sense of heroism. He can now be as ruthless as he likes. I think he's also going to be more physically threatening this time around. In season 2 we saw him casually bench pressing 500 lbs in the prison gym. Charlie Cox has stated that Matt became stronger and better at fighting after battling the Hand, and I'm expecting Fisk's physical prowess to have also improved since their last encounter.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Sep  2018, 02:28Either way, season 03 can't get here fast enough!

The first full trailer should be arriving very soon, but before it does I'd like to highlight one of the more interesting aspects of the season 3 marketing campaign. Over the past few months, the official Daredevil Twitter account has been posting cryptic hints about the new season in the form of Biblical references. I'll list them below along with the relevant Biblical passages.

Quote"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and turn for me to heal them."

Quote"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

Quotelearn to do good: seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plea for the widow.

QuoteHe uncovers the deeps out of darkness, and brings deep darkness to light.

QuoteBut when I looked for good, evil came; and when I waited for light, darkness came.

Quotebut for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Quote"See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil.

The Book of Job is an appropriate point of reference for Born Again, as it deals with a good man whose faith is destroyed by suffering. But Job, like Murdock, ultimately has his faith restored and rewarded when he eventually learns to endure his suffering with grace. Although Born Again is an incredibly dark story, it's by no means nihilistic. Quite the opposite in fact. It has an uplifting ending where Matt, despite going through hell and losing his job, his money and his home, still manages to be happy. I hope the TV show gets this aspect of the story right. But it will obviously be harder to do that if Bullseye kills Karen, or if Fisk exposes Matt's secret identity and has him sent to jail.

Moving away from the TV show, writer Charles Soule is about to conclude his run on the Daredevil comics. I've enjoyed Soule's run immensely, but all good things must come to an end. Including, it would seem, Matt Murdock's life. ???

A new teaser has been released.


Kingpin's white suit is too perfect for words. It's ripped straight out of the comics.


This show's willingness to embrace comic book iconography is one of the many reasons it stands head and shoulders above the rest of Marvel's Netflix content. I hope we'll get to see red suit Daredevil fight white suit Kingpin at some point; if not in this season, then in the next one.


Marvel have also released a new synopsis for season 3:

Missing for months, Matt Murdock (Charlie Cox) reemerges a broken man, putting into question his future as both vigilante Daredevil and lawyer Matthew Murdock. But when his archenemy Wilson Fisk (Vincent D'Onofrio) is released from prison, Matt must choose between hiding from the world or embracing his destiny as a hero.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the Biblical reference accompanying this new teaser is Daniel 9:5.

Quotewe have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from thy commandments and ordinances;

Mmm. That synopsis actually tends to call the Born Again angle into question somewhat. I mean, I realize there's a huge difference between "adaptation" and "inspiration". Season 03 could be a heaping portion of "inspired by" Born Again. But were I to be overly literalistic about the matter, I'd suggest to you that Matt didn't really face a "choice" in Born Again, so much. More like, his life was forcibly wrecked and he had to rebuild... partly by choice and partly because circumstances demanded it.

Then again, it's been a while since I read Born Again so maybe I'm wrong.

Then again again, I don't NEED this season to be any kind of adaptation of Born Again. So there you go.

Here's our first look at Joanne Whalley as Sister Maggie. She is one of the two most important new additions to the cast this season, the other being Bullseye. I wonder if Val will be watching.


Note the wound on Matt's left flank. That's where he was knifed by Turk in Born Again.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 26 Sep  2018, 20:01Then again, it's been a while since I read Born Again so maybe I'm wrong.

Nope, you're spot on.

We've talked before about the Daredevil comics' tendency to repeat the same storyline once every decade or so, and this is another good example of that trend. The idea of Daredevil abandoning his civilian alter ego so he can focus all his efforts on crime fighting has been explored numerous times. The first example was back in the Silver Age where he leaped out of a crashing plane in Daredevil Vol 1 #54 so everyone would think Matt Murdock was dead (this is not to be confused with the time he faked his death as Mike Murdock just one year earlier in Daredevil Vol 1 #41). His 'death' didn't last long and he showed up at his own funeral a few issues later, whereupon he revealed his true identity to Karen. Karen's function in the Silver Age comics was basically to provide an emotional punching bag for Matt's terrible life decisions, so it's fitting that she had to grieve for both Mike and Matt within the span of a year.

Matt doesn't intentionally fake his death during Born Again, but there is a point early in the story where he chooses to sever contact with Foggy, Glorianna and Ben. Matt spends days, possibly weeks, living in dosshouses and brawling on the streets before he's eventually saved by Maggie. During that time, his friends don't know if he's dead or alive. They, along with Karen, fear he's been killed, when in reality he is convalescing under Maggie's care at the church. It's only when he returns to action in the second half of the story that he reveals he's still alive to the wider world. It's not exactly the same as faking his own death, but the plot of Born Again does entail Matt allowing his friends to think might be dead.

Then there was the Fall from Grace arc in the nineties. In that storyline his secret identity was compromised by a reporter named Sara Harrington, so in Daredevil Vol 1 #325 he fakes Matt Murdock's death – yet again – this time using the corpse of his demonic doppelganger, Hellspawn. His friends throw yet another funeral for Matt, and Karen is once again bereaved. Daredevil then pretends to be his own masked successor so he can carry on fighting crime, and he even adopts a slightly darker, meaner persona so criminals will think he's not the original Daredevil. But he allows Karen, Foggy and everyone else to continue believing he's dead so he can focus all his efforts on being Daredevil. This lasted for quite a while, until eventually he started to undergo an identity crisis and suffered another of his many breakdowns. Interestingly, the one character Matt let know he was still alive during this storyline was Maggie. The TV show definitively seems to be referencing this in season 3.


I suppose you could argue that Daredevil: Reborn was another example of this type of plot. Following Shadowland, Matt disappears from New York and no one knows for sure if he's alive or dead. During this time he wanders in isolation and even goes back to wearing his black 'Man Without Fear' costume, just like the MCU Daredevil in season 3 (and The Defenders was sort of like the MCU's watered down version of Shadowland). He doesn't finally return to New York and resume his life as Matt Murdock until the very last scene of that story, at which point he also digs out the old red costume he'd discarded when he became possessed by the Beast.

With season 3 I get the impression they're mostly drawing from Born Again, while also picking some of the stronger elements from other similar storylines. The idea of Matt losing his red costume is a common thread in some of these tales. He lost his costume after the first chapter of Born Again and didn't get it back again until the second half of the story. He donned his old yellow and black/red suit while undergoing his identity crisis after the Fall from Grace arc. And of course he went back to wearing his black suit during the events of Reborn.


I expect season 3 will be an amalgamation of these different stories, while also hopefully throwing some surprise twists into the mix.

I dig the way these teasers are mostly comprised of specially shot footage so as not to give too much away. On the one hand it's frustrating that we're only seeing tiny flashes of the new season. But on the other hand it'll mean more surprises when the show finally gets here.

Quotebut you have done evil above all that were before you and have gone and made for yourself other gods, and molten images, provoking me to anger, and have cast me behind your back;

3 weeks today!

Official NY Comic-Con poster art by Paolo Rivera.


The first full trailer can't be far off now. The NY Comic-Con panel is scheduled for October 6th, so it should arrive no later than that.

Set interviews have appeared online revealing fresh hints about the new season.

Charlie Cox on Matt's connection with Maggie:

Quote"That's actually been one of the things that's been great, is that's a whole new relationship. And so that has been one of the areas where ... I felt like I got to explore a different kind of vulnerability. ... The first episode was all me and her, all me and her. And I just love that, I love that, you know, that relationship. I'm excited for the fans to see that, because I think ... some people will think they know who she is to me, and whether they're right or wrong, it will be interesting for them to watch that dynamic, I think. I hope."

I'm guessing they might change things so that Matt and Maggie have a slightly different relationship in the MCU. Like maybe she was one of the nuns who raised him at the orphanage. But I do hope she's still his biological mother as well.

Cox on the more fantastical elements from season 2 and The Defenders:

Quote"Over the years, there's been [comic book] writers and illustrators who have really delved deep into the Hand and that mythological element, and bringing people back from the dead. And then there's others that have had very little of that, and it was very grounded and real. You know, my preference is the stuff that doesn't have as much mythology.

"We're now back in a world that feels grounded and real, and those things happened. But in the same way, in the first season, it was all very grounded and real, but we still lived in a world where Iron Man exists, we still lived in a world where Thor exists, and we [made] kind of fun Easter egg references to them. But in the nature of this moment in this show, we're not dealing with that anymore. And that's what we do in Season 3. We're back in a much more kind of traditional crime-thriller-like environment."

A lot of people seem to feel this way about the Elektra/Hand material. I've never minced words about the fact I don't particularly like Elektra, either in the comics or the TV show. But the storyline about her and the Hand is still an important part of the mythos, so I'm glad they covered it in the series. And I did enjoy the storyline about the Hand in the second half of season 2, even though most viewers apparently didn't. That said, the Elektra/Hand material has clearly run its course. It dominated most of DD season 2 and all of The Defenders. Now it's time to move on.

Erik Oleson on the general tone and action scenes:

Quote"I wanted to tell a thriller that is somewhere, tonally, between Season 1 of this show and The Sopranos. It is much darker, more character-driven. The action sequences are violent and explosive and very much Daredevil, and yet there are real stakes in every action sequence this season. There are emotional decisions that are being made. There are characters who will die, there are fights that Matt will lose. It is not a predictable season."

Ever since the stairwell sequence in season 2, I've been wondering how they could up the ante on the one-shot fight scenes. An idea I had was to stage a fight scene on a railway platform, then have the characters stumble onto a train, continue fighting, then get off at another station, then board another train, and so on. To execute this in one shot would probably be too complicated on a technical level, but it would make for an amazing spectacle. It would also be a neat way of referencing the subway fight from Born Again.


An alternative might be to do a bigger version of the season 2 stairwell fight. Have the characters battle their way to the top of a building, then cross over to the adjacent rooftop and fight their way back down. But again, shifting the action from one building to another within a single shot might be too complicated. Still, I'm looking forward to seeing whatever they do come up with for the one-shot fight scene this season.

Oleson on the absence of other heroes:

Quote"I wanted it to be standalone, I did not do crossovers this season. I wanted to really get back to these core characters, and use the real estate to focus on who they are and really flesh them out before I introduced external and other kind of elements of the MCU, at least all the Netflix Marvel stuff. I really wanted to get back to the core characters and tell a character-driven season, where the action is surprising and it kind of catches you off-guard."

Excellent!

Oleson on the comic book influences:

Quote"My hope was to draw inspiration from comics like 'Born Again' and 'Guardian Devil,. And there's certainly moments that resonated for me tonally that I used as inspiration, but [Season 3] is an original story. I am not doing a direct translation of any of the comics. I think that would have been a mistake. I want to give the audience what they want, but not in a way that they expect it. I want to make sure that everybody is really hooked with an original story where they are deeply invested in the characters this season, and understand why the characters behave the way that they behave, and why they do the things that they do."

This is more or less what we expected, but it's nice to have confirmation of the Guardian Devil influence. At least one major character is clearly going to die this season. If it's not Karen, then it'll be Foggy, Marci, Lantom, Maggie or Vanessa. But someone is checking out. The only two characters that are safe right now are Matt and Fisk. Anyone else is fair game.


Oleson on Kingpin:

Quote"It's a pyrrhic victory, right? Locked up, and he's separated from the woman he loves, and for all of the power that he may be able to exercise within prison, that is not a fulfilling life. And he learns, in the first episode of the season, that Vanessa, his love, will face criminal charges as an accessory to his crimes in Season 1.

"As we all know, Wilson Fisk, there's often more to him than meets the eye, and I see him this season as somewhat of a spymaster. I was fascinated about what Wilson Fisk would look like with that kind of skill set. We always see Fisk having hooks into people, and I go a lot deeper with that this season. And that will set Matt and Fisk, of course, on a collision course, which will have tremendous implications for everyone in our cast, and for who Matt is."

I've got a gut feeling there may be at least one other comic villain this season that we haven't heard about yet. We know Kingpin and Bullseye are featuring prominently, but I think there might be another villain in a smaller role.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 20:49

Quotewe still lived in a world where Iron Man exists, we still lived in a world where Thor exists, and we [made] kind of fun Easter egg references to them. But in the nature of this moment in this show, we're not dealing with that anymore. And that's what we do in Season 3. We're back in a much more kind of traditional crime-thriller-like environment."

Fine by me. I'll develop this more later on but I think this is the right move for them to take.

A crime thriller is a better fit for the tone of the show anyway. One minor quibble I had with season 02 was how the tone didn't completely adjust to the fact that the story revolved around a zombie ninja death cult. It's common knowledge that I got into season 02 more than you did but I wouldn't claim it's perfect. Good but hardly perfect.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 20:49An idea I had was to stage a fight scene on a railway platform, then have the characters stumble onto a train, continue fighting, then get off at another station, then board another train, and so on. To execute this in one shot would probably be too complicated on a technical level

What if the lights flicker out occasionally on the train, allowing for cuts and new camera setups to continue the action?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 20:49Oleson on the absence of other heroes:

Quote"I wanted it to be standalone, I did not do crossovers this season. I wanted to really get back to these core characters, and use the real estate to focus on who they are and really flesh them out before I introduced external and other kind of elements of the MCU, at least all the Netflix Marvel stuff. I really wanted to get back to the core characters and tell a character-driven season, where the action is surprising and it kind of catches you off-guard."

Excellent!

Indeed. Bear in mind that I still haven't watched Iron Fist's second season or any of Luke Cage. But the impression I'm getting from nearly everybody associated with the Netflixverse is they did Defenders, it was what it was (for good or ill) and everybody mostly got it out of their systems but from now on they're mostly steering clear of the extraneous crossovers and guest appearances.

I sometimes wonder that the Netflix creative teams look at goings on with the MCU and think "Yeah, I don't want anything to do with that".

For me, the payoff there is that crossovers won't lose their novelty (as they have with the MCU) or become obligatory (as they're starting to with the Arrowverse). If there's another Defenders season, great. They can shoot their load on crossovers and stuff there. But keeping the solo shows mostly independent of each other going forward is definitely the right move.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 20:49Oleson on the comic book influences:

Quote"My hope was to draw inspiration from comics like 'Born Again' and 'Guardian Devil,. And there's certainly moments that resonated for me tonally that I used as inspiration, but [Season 3] is an original story. I am not doing a direct translation of any of the comics. I think that would have been a mistake. I want to give the audience what they want, but not in a way that they expect it. I want to make sure that everybody is really hooked with an original story where they are deeply invested in the characters this season, and understand why the characters behave the way that they behave, and why they do the things that they do."

I don't mind this except that for me Daredevil's second season kind of suffered for being inspired by Shadowland. I rather enjoy Shadowland and there wasn't enough of a Shadowland influence to really scratch the itch for me.

I get that sampling comic book stories in the context of telling an otherwise original story is probably a deeply satisfying approach on a creative level. But for diehards, it sometimes is disappointing that a particular idea or subplot from some comic book isn't take further.

Sour grapes?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 20:49This is more or less what we expected, but it's nice to have confirmation of the Guardian Devil influence. At least one major character is clearly going to die this season. If it's not Karen, then it'll be Foggy, Marci, Lantom, Maggie or Vanessa. But someone is checking out. The only two characters that are safe right now are Matt and Fisk. Anyone else is fair game.

I hope it's not Foggy. Anybody else is fine with me but I'm a sucker for the Foggy/Matt dynamic... even though, in fairness, the show has basically covered most of Foggy's major arcs related to Matt by now.

My heart wants the sacrificial lamb to be Karen. But my head is saying Foggy is getting fitted for a toe tag as we speak. :(

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 20:49"As we all know, Wilson Fisk, there's often more to him than meets the eye, and I see him this season as somewhat of a spymaster. I was fascinated about what Wilson Fisk would look like with that kind of skill set. We always see Fisk having hooks into people, and I go a lot deeper with that this season. And that will set Matt and Fisk, of course, on a collision course, which will have tremendous implications for everyone in our cast, and for who Matt is."

Spymaster?

Apart from who's living and who's dying, should we start conjecturing on which episode Fisk discovers Murdock's secret identity this season? The Born Again thing is what it is. They're not denying that at this point. And Fisk getting Daredevil's dox is probably the most famous part of BA.

Mixing influences from Guardian Devil with Born Again is actually a pretty inspired idea. Don't know if I ever said so. But the stakes and big climax of Guardian Devil could flow really easily from the basic concept of Born Again, bypassing that "Antichrist baby" stuff and all that. The original story thing is fine but those two comic storylines go incredibly well together.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 20:49I've got a gut feeling there may be at least one other comic villain this season that we haven't heard about yet. We know Kingpin and Bullseye are featuring prominently, but I think there might be another villain in a smaller role.

Some variation on Mr. Fear could be interesting. There are a lot of ways other villains could surface in this show.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 21:17What if the lights flicker out occasionally on the train, allowing for cuts and new camera setups to continue the action?

That could work. In fact come to think of it, the flickering lights would echo the season 3 teaser from 2016.


Seriously, a train fight would be epic. If they don't do this in season 3, they need to do it in season 4.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 21:17Apart from who's living and who's dying, should we start conjecturing on which episode Fisk discovers Murdock's secret identity this season? The Born Again thing is what it is. They're not denying that at this point. And Fisk getting Daredevil's dox is probably the most famous part of BA.

I have some ideas about that. D'Onofrio recently tweeted the following concerning Deborah Ann Woll.


It sounds like the scene he's alluding to could be the one where he confronts Karen about Wesley's death. If that's so then Karen, fearing for her life, might offer him Daredevil's secret identity in a bid to save herself. It's possible she'll do this in the first half of the season when she still thinks Matt's dead. If she does it later in the season, when she knows he's alive, then it would constitute an even bigger act of betrayal.

Another possibility is that Bullseye might uncover Daredevil's secret and reveal it to Fisk. Bullseye figured out that Matt was Daredevil after he killed Elektra in Daredevil Vol 1 #181. He tried telling Kingpin, but Fisk didn't believe him. Then Daredevil threw Bullseye off a roof and broke every bone in his body. You'd think Fisk might have connected the dots after that, but evidently it took him a little longer to work it out. If this is how it plays out in the TV show, then Kingpin probably won't learn Matt's secret until the latter half of the season. Then we could be looking at a cliff-hanger ending.

A third possibility is that he'll know from the outset. He was already suspicious of Matt in season 2, and he may have correlated the blind lawyer's disappearance with the last known sighting of Daredevil following the Midland Circle incident.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 21:17Mixing influences from Guardian Devil with Born Again is actually a pretty inspired idea. Don't know if I ever said so. But the stakes and big climax of Guardian Devil could flow really easily from the basic concept of Born Again, bypassing that "Antichrist baby" stuff and all that. The original story thing is fine but those two comic storylines go incredibly well together.

Agreed.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 21:17Some variation on Mr. Fear could be interesting. There are a lot of ways other villains could surface in this show.

I've been trying to figure out who the most likely candidate would be for the main villain in season 4 (Jeph Loeb says they have ideas for at least two more seasons), and right now Mister Fear would appear to be the best pick. Though that might change after season 3. By then they will have already covered Kingpin, Elektra, Bullseye, the Hand and the Punisher. And since the show is consciously moving away from the supernatural themes of season 2 and The Defenders, it seems unlikely we'll be getting any overtly paranormal adversaries in the near future. Which means we can rule out characters like Mephisto, Blackheart, Death's Head, Hellspawn and Death-Stalker, at least for the time being. It's also unlikely we'll be seeing any of the cheesier Silver Age villains, such as Stilt-Man, Leap-Frog, Matador, Masked Marauder, Cobra or the Ani-Men/Unholy Three. And I'm assuming Spider-Man villains like Tombstone and Electro are also off limits. Purple Man, Mister Hyde and Nuke have all been dealt with in other MCU shows, so they're off the table as well.

The next villains on the hierarchy, after Fisk, Elektra, Bullseye, etc, would be the Owl, Typhoid Mary, Mister Fear and Jester. They already did a version of Leland in season 1, but Steve DeKnight has hinted Owlsley's son might appear in a future season as a more comic-accurate version of the Owl seeking revenge against Fisk. If they introduce this character in season 3, then there's a good chance he'll take a central role in season 4. Otherwise they may be done with the Owl altogether. Jester might work as the main villain. His MO, revolving around media crimes, entails what would nowadays be termed as "fake news", and that could make for a very topical season. But I'm not sure his harlequin costume and weaponized toys would work well with the show's grounded sensibilities.


Until recently Typhoid Mary was my first choice for the season 4 villain. But after seeing Iron Fist season 2, I just can't imagine the MCU Mary Walker being a suitable successor to Kingpin or the Hand. I liked Alice Eve's performance a lot, but the portrayal of her skills and powers was completely different from the comics. She's not a big enough threat to carry a whole season. I also think the lover-enemy dynamic would be too similar to the Elektra storyline. I don't think they'll be using Echo either for the same reason.

But Mister Fear would be perfect. If Bullseye is going to test Daredevil physically in season 3, then it would make sense to go with a villain who can test him psychologically in season 4. They could introduce Larry Cranston as a rival lawyer with a shady history. Maybe drop some hints about his enemies suffering from mental breakdowns. Having a lawyer as the main antagonist would create the potential for more courtroom drama. They could even adapt the storyline about Foggy running for D.A. against Blake Tower (who they already introduced in season 2), with Cranston acting as Tower's secret ally and trying to sabotage Foggy's campaign, similar to the Joker targeting Dent in The Dark Knight.


The two best storylines featuring the Larry Cranston Mister Fear IMO are a Joe Kelly arc that ran from Daredevil Vol 1 #373-375 (March-May 1998) and Ed Brubaker's 'Without Fear' (Daredevil Vol 2 #100-105, October 2007-April 2008). After doing their own version of the Bullseye saga and Born Again in season 3, the show's writers will have more or less exhausted Miller's Daredevil material. If they're looking for other writers to draw from in seasons 4 and 5, then I'd say Bendis and Brubaker would be the most logical choices. And 'Without Fear' is one of the best stories to reference if they're going to adapt Mister Fear.

Here are some other villains I think would fit in with the show's style, albeit in smaller secondary-villain roles.



A powerhouse assassin whose protective attitude towards his son adds a somewhat sympathetic dimension to his character. There are other mercenary/assassin villains in the Daredevil comics, like Bushwacker and Ammo, but Bullet would probably be the most suitable.



Also known as Vincent van Gore, Muse is one of the darkest and most disturbing villains in Matt's gallery of rogues. He's a serial killer who turns his victims' corpses into works of art and leaves them around the city for Daredevil to find. His inclusion would push the show into horror territory, but he'd be a good secondary villain to complement Mister Fear.



On the surface, this guy might seem inappropriate for the TV show. But they already introduced the abandoned tunnels beneath New York in season 1 episode 6, and Daredevil returned there in season 2 when he was hunting the Hand. The King could be reimagined as an albino gang leader who picks a fight with Daredevil the next time he ventures into those tunnels.



This character's introduction will obviously depend on what happens to Bullseye in season 3.



A small but dangerous outfit that have gone up against numerous New York heroes, including Daredevil. Ox, Montana and Fancy Dan constitute the main line-up, though other villains have joined the gang over the years. Ox in particular has a long history of battles with Daredevil and is one of his earliest Silver Age foes. They'd be perfect for the TV show.



Without Matt watching out for him, I fear Potter may go back to working for Fisk in season 3. Maybe Kingpin will punish him for making Daredevil's costume and force him to make his new white suit. Regardless, I think it's time Potter donned his wrist-blades. The villain Skeletron from Turbo Kid (2015) offers a good template for how they might look in live action.

They say that fandom is what you call thinking things out waaaaaaaaaay ahead of time.

But if things go in a Born Again direction this season, Out is a logical direction for season four. And to your point, throwing in other influences/beats like The Murdock Papers, The Devil In Cell-Block D, Without Fear, etc either in season four or maybe season five. The latter part of the Bendis run and practically all of the Brubaker run would fit nicely into what could transpire after season three.

There's a lot of comics material that can be used as inspiration. Daredevil has a pretty impressive history. Not on Batman's level, perhaps, but it's easy to forget how much goodness is in his publication history.

At last, the full trailer!

In keeping with my policy of overanalysing every snippet of information in insane detail (that's what happens when you starve a fanboy for two and a half years), here's my commentary on the trailer.

Matt wearing a baseball cap while keeping a low profile is typical of the comics.


There are some scenes here lifted straight from The Murdock Papers. Namely Kingpin cutting a deal with the feds...


...and delivering a speech to the press upon his release.


This shot is interesting.


There was a shot of the FBI convoy being attacked in one of the earlier teasers. So is Fisk actually released by the FBI, or does he escape?

Bullseye's church massacre from Guardian Devil gets a visual nod in the following scene.



I was correct about them mixing the Daredevil imposter subplot from Born Again with the Ann Nocenti storyline from Daredevil Vol 1 #284-290 (September 1990-March 1991), in which Bullseye steals Daredevil's costume and tries to destroy his reputation. Note the "I'm Daredevil" line at the end of the trailer. In the comic Bullseye, being the maniac that he is, started to believe he actually was Daredevil.


This trailer also confirms that the leaked image of Daredevil stalking an imposter at the New York Bulletin offices was genuine. Here's an official image of the same scene.


This scene was supposedly leaked from the preview episodes sent to critics, which means it takes place in the first half of the season. I'm guessing episode 6 will end on a cliff-hanger with Daredevil confronting Bullseye in the NY Bulletin office.

Kingpin sitting in front of multiple television sets is an image straight out of Born Again.


Bullseye doing what Bullseye does best. ;D


There are several shots of Matt fighting Potter. Two explanations spring to mind: 1) Potter thinks Daredevil abandoned him, has gone back to working for Fisk and now considers Matt his enemy, or 2) Potter thinks Matt is the Daredevil imposter who's been killing people. Either way, it looks like Melvin is drawing closer to becoming Gladiator.

The prison fight looks like it's going to be season 3's one-shot sequence. Matt's dressed the same in the following shots, which helps us assemble a rough idea of how this sequence plays out. Note the brown door in the background of the first picture matches the doors in the corridor where the fight is taking place. The yellow lighting also corresponds.


Maybe Matt goes to see Fisk in prison, possibly with the intent of killing him. He walks into a trap similar to the one Fisk set for the Punisher in season 2. This would mean that Fisk knows Matt is Daredevil by this point. So Matt has to fight his way out of the prison in an epic one-shot action sequence, emerging alive but bloodied. If I'm right, then this sequence would be the TV show's answer to the Born Again scene where Matt goes to the Fisk Tower and gets beaten half to death.

I'm going to go ahead and predict that Matt is talking to himself in the next two scenes and that he's only imagining Fisk is there. Same goes for the scene in the confessional. I'm also guessing these scenes take place after the scene in the prison.


There were two full trailers for season 2. The first focused on the Punisher and mostly showed clips from the first half of the season, while the second focused on Elektra and mostly contained footage from the second half. I'm assuming they've done something similar here. Most of the scenes in this trailer are probably from the first six episodes. The second trailer, which should get released some time after the NY Comic-Con panel on Saturday, will likely focus on the next seven episodes.

In case any doubt remained, the cast list has been updated to confirm that Wilson Bethel is playing Benjamin Poindexter. It's now official – Bullseye has arrived in the MCU.

Here are some more new images.


Just two more weeks to go!

Samples of Born Again, Guardian Devil, Imposter storyline, Murdock Papers and possibly Out. And maybe Return Of The King (from near the end of vol. 02's run, circa 2009 or so)?

I must say that I have a VERY positive feeling about this season. There's nothing going on in that trailer that doesn't have me psyched.

Plus, there's some context to why Matt is going back to the all-black outfit. You could see it as Matt battling Daredevil... in a sense. And that's good artillery for any story riffing on BA.

This season can't get here fast enough.

Here's a new teaser focusing on Bullseye.


This shot confirms the church scene is inspired by the massacre/fight from Guardian Devil. It's a beautiful panel recreation, only here they've inverted the final image so it's Karen cradling Matt. Kevin Smith's going to love this.


And here's an entertaining interview with Erik Oleson and the cast. A couple of spoilers are dropped here, though nothing that's likely to ruin the new season. Elden Henson reveals what Foggy's up to in season 3, but it's something I already predicted in this thread a couple of days ago, so it's nothing too shocking. What's slightly more surprising is that Oleson seemingly reveals the fate of Elektra following The Defenders. My favourite part of the interview is at the end when a fan asks Cox about the moment where he grins while pointing the gun at the Dogs of Hell in season 2. Cox responds by confirming it was a reference to the cover of Daredevil Vol 1 #184. But he doesn't just say it was based on some old cover art; he correctly cites the exact issue from memory. How many actors could do that? This guy's clearly done his revision.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  5 Oct  2018, 21:43Samples of Born Again, Guardian Devil, Imposter storyline, Murdock Papers and possibly Out. And maybe Return Of The King (from near the end of vol. 02's run, circa 2009 or so)?

I feel as though the Out storyline is the logical destination towards which this season is heading. The Guardian Devil material offers a smooth segue between Miller and Bendis, and with Matt's secret identity being compromised it's only a matter of time before the whole world knows who Daredevil is.

A part of me is sad about this, as I feel the whole secret identity thing is becoming increasingly rare in modern superhero shows and movies (how many other MCU heroes actually have secret identities?). The concept of the secret identity in general has always been one of my favourite aspects of superhero mythology. At the same time though, I think the end of season 3 would be a good place to move into the Out storyline. By then, Matt will have preserved his secret identity for 39 episodes of his own series, plus another 8 episodes of The Defenders. That's 47 1-hour episodes spanning 4 years in which his secret identity remained intact. I'm happy with that. There are some great storylines from the comics that they can only tackle once his secret identity is made public, so I'm ok with them progressing in that direction now.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  5 Oct  2018, 21:43I must say that I have a VERY positive feeling about this season. There's nothing going on in that trailer that doesn't have me psyched.

Same here. It looks as if they're taking the show in precisely the direction us comic fans were hoping they would.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  5 Oct  2018, 21:43Plus, there's some context to why Matt is going back to the all-black outfit. You could see it as Matt battling Daredevil... in a sense. And that's good artillery for any story riffing on BA.

Something was said in one of the interviews about how Matt has abandoned the red suit because he doesn't think he's worthy of it anymore. Born Again was a deconstruction of the character, breaking him down to his essential components and then building him back up again. And season 3 seems to be doing the same thing for the MCU Daredevil. Part of the deconstructive process involves shedding his armour and weapons and getting back to basics. The black suit symbolises a stage in that regression. But I'm confident he'll be wearing the red suit again by the end of the season.

The question is, will it be the same red suit Bullseye is wearing (which is the same design from The Defenders) or will it be a new upgraded suit?

4 days!


Note the taxi cab driving into the river – yet another scene from Born Again. Presumably this occurs after the prison fight.

Still not seeing anything that doesn't look cool.

The Fisk/Murdock interplay that gets hyped up in that featurette is pretty legit. After Born Again but before, say, the Bendis run, there wasn't a ton of advancement with Daredevil's world. So the angle the writers began playing with was the Kingpin/Daredevil rivalry. They both had the goods on each other, which forced them into a detente which they both loathed but recognized the necessity of.

Frankly, I'm not sure how (or if) that would play in the Netflix show since this kind of dramatic storytelling usually demands that one character vanquish the other sooner or later. But the rivalry in the comics was always very real, which made their occasional physical clashes all the more powerful since victory for one over the other necessarily also entails defeat.

That was one gripe I had about the 2003 Daredevil movie, in fact. I don't believe the movie did the Kingpin/Daredevil rivalry any justice. And even if a sequel had been made, I don't have any reason to believe that their mutual hatred would've been faithfully depicted there either.

But we're reaching a point with comic adaptations now where there's not much on my bucketlist that hasn't been addressed to one degree or another. So maybe it shouldn't be a big shock that the Daredevil show looks like it's bringing the heat on this crucial aspect of the Daredevil mythos.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 15 Oct  2018, 19:56The Fisk/Murdock interplay that gets hyped up in that featurette is pretty legit. After Born Again but before, say, the Bendis run, there wasn't a ton of advancement with Daredevil's world. So the angle the writers began playing with was the Kingpin/Daredevil rivalry. They both had the goods on each other, which forced them into a detente which they both loathed but recognized the necessity of.

Frankly, I'm not sure how (or if) that would play in the Netflix show since this kind of dramatic storytelling usually demands that one character vanquish the other sooner or later. But the rivalry in the comics was always very real, which made their occasional physical clashes all the more powerful since victory for one over the other necessarily also entails defeat.

That's very true. I was re-reading some old nineties Daredevil comics the other day and thinking about how passive Kingpin was throughout that decade. After he got defeated in Last Rites, he spent most of the nineties living on the streets, just lurking in the background. He didn't really come back in force until he regained his fortune following the Marvel Knights re-launch.

One of the things I like about the Daredevil/Kingpin rivalry is the fact they seldom actually face each other one-on-one. I haven't bothered to count how many times they've come to blows over the years, but I'd be surprised if they'd physically fought each other more than a dozen times at most. At least in the 616 canon. But when they do fight each other in person, you know it's serious.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 15 Oct  2018, 19:56That was one gripe I had about the 2003 Daredevil movie, in fact. I don't believe the movie did the Kingpin/Daredevil rivalry any justice. And even if a sequel had been made, I don't have any reason to believe that their mutual hatred would've been faithfully depicted there either.

They tried intensifying the relationship between Murdock and Fisk in the 2003 movie by having Kingpin kill Jack, but that detail remains inconsequential throughout most of the film. Daredevil only finds out Fisk was responsible immediately before their showdown, which robs the climax of any substantial emotional build-up. And ultimately the fight scene with Fisk feels a bit anticlimactic after the showdown with Bullseye. They tried to cover so much of the mythology in that film that they didn't leave themselves enough space to adequately develop the Daredevil/Kingpin rivalry. But I still like the director's cut.

Incidentally, the twist about Kingpin being responsible for Jack Murdock's death is one of several things the 2003 movie borrowed from the Earth-92131 version of Daredevil that featured in Marvel's nineties animated TV shows. The Spider-Man: The Animated Series episode 'Framed' portrays Fisk as having had a hand in Jack's death.


Meanwhile here's the latest poster for season 3 along with some new images.


A little over 1 day to go!

I didn't really mind the concept of Fisk killing Jack. Yeah, it's kind of contrived from a rational standpoint. But it's convenient narrative shorthand and it links the hero's origin to his quest. For a film, it's a sensible decision to make. I imagine logic along those lines figured into Burton making similar decisions in B89. But as you say, it's mostly unimportant for the bulk of the movie. The loss of Elektra was enough to propel Matt through the last portion of the film. The revelation that Kingpin killed his father could've been useful ammo for a sequel.

Perhaps.

We'll never know, obviously.

I had forgotten about the Spider-Man animated series angle though. Thanks for the reminder.

One of the better elements of season 1 (which is saying a lot all by itself) is how Matt reached a point where he said he was looking for reasons to kill Fisk... but his actions suggested that he in truth he was searching for reasons not to kill Fisk. Particularly his discussions about the matter with the priest indicate that Matt understood what killing Fisk would ultimately cost him vis a vis his soul.

Under that rubric, the character arc which has been implied for Matt this season could be seen as a retread of that season 1 arc. And yet, without the benefit of having seen the episodes, obviously, I think a nuance can be added here that in season 1, Matt believed Fisk was a clear and present danger to the city. His temptation was to kill him to end that threat permanently but he eventually found a better way. Matt's broader mission was more universal; he wanted to protect the city.

In season 3, it looks like Matt is again tempted to end Fisk permanently. The difference in this case is (1) Matt knows that Fisk is a threat and (2) part of the threat Fisk poses is now to Matt personally rather than the city generally. This gives Matt a more personal and "selfish" motive because now it's as much about self-defense as anything else.

So the temptation to kill Fisk in season 3 (assuming this is an actual subplot of the season) is superficially similar to season 1 but the nitty gritty details are quite different.

If one of the supporting characters do get killed by Fisk, it adds extra spice to Matt's urge to whack the Kingpin once and for all.

Which, when you think about it, is actually pretty freaking epic.

I finished season 3 around mid-afternoon Saturday, and I feel emotionally drained. I don't think I've ever felt so anxious watching a superhero film or TV show as I did watching this. I've got so much to say about it, but I'd rather unpack those thoughts a bit at a time over the coming weeks than do it all in one go. It's also going to take me some time to process everything properly. But for now, here are some initial reactions. As usual, I'll mark spoilers in white.

To start with, the new season fixes a couple of problems created by The Defenders. The final scene of The Defenders positioned the starting point for Daredevil season 3 smack in the middle of Born Again. But the new season manages to reposition things so as to approach that story from a more suitable angle. Overall I thought it was an excellent adaptation of Born Again. Obviously season 3 isn't just based on that one story, but it covers all the most important aspects of Miller and Mazzucchelli's saga. It's certainly the most comprehensive adaptation of any single comic story they've done so far. A lot of people, including Charlie Cox, expressed disappointment that we never got to see Karen's reaction to learning that Matt was Daredevil after season 2. (SPOILER) But season 3 addresses this problem early on in the form of a flashback. (END SPOILER) The pacing is very slow, but for some reason I don't mind that as much with Daredevil as I do with the other Marvel Netflix shows. Maybe it's because I'm more emotionally invested in these characters, or maybe it's because the supporting cast is just more interesting. Whatever the reason, the slow burn pacing works for me. But it might annoy other people.

Charlie Cox is on top form. He continues to own this role and solidifies his position as the best live action superhero of the modern era. This season looks like it was his most physically demanding, and there are plenty of fight scenes where you can clearly see him performing the elaborate choreography himself. Christian Bale did a lot of push-ups in The Dark Knight trilogy, but did he do them while performing a handstand? Cox does.


There's one particular action sequence that is filmed in a single take and lasts for about 10 minutes. It might be a record as far as television is concerned and should guarantee the stunt team an Emmy nomination. But since the Emmys seem determined to ignore this show, even to the extent of nominating Luke Cage season 1 over Daredevil season 2 for best stunt work, then I won't hold my breath.

Cox and D'Onofrio both deserve Emmy nominations too IMO. I also think Deborah Ann Woll and Joanne Whalley deserve best supporting actress nods. Woll's scene with D'Onofrio is one of the best in the entire series. And Whalley is superb. She's perfect as Maggie and many of the most emotionally-affecting moments this season were the ones between her and Matt. At one point I thought they might balk at the true nature of their relationship (SPOILER) but they didn't. I feel there's more to her backstory than was glimpsed in the flashback scenes. In the comics her postpartum depression drove her to try and hurt baby Matt, and I wonder if something similar happened here which motivated her to distance herself from her family. If so, we might get an extended flashback in season 4. Now that Lantom's dead (the most shocking and impactful death since Ben's in season 1) I'm hoping Maggie will fill his role as Matt's moral and spiritual guide. Murdock's lost three parent figures now (Jack, Stick and Lantom), but Maggie should survive the run of the series. She's still alive in the comics, and there are lots of interesting places they could go with the relationship between her and Matt. (END SPOILER) I'm looking forward to seeing this aspect of the show developed more in the next season.

Moving on to the villains, I absolutely loved the depiction of Bullseye. I'd heard rumours that the MCU version wasn't faithful to the comics, but that's utter nonsense. They incorporated a ton of things from the source material, including the final scene where (SPOILER) he gets his spine laced with metal by Kenji Oyama (aka Lord Dark Wind). Practically all of his different origin stories from the comics were referenced in the series: the loss of his parents at a young age, his childhood aptitude for killing, his time as a baseball pitcher where he killed someone by throwing a ball at their head, his time spent serving in the military, his training with a government agency, his gradual descent into criminality while outwardly still being an operative of the aforementioned government agency, his emotional weakness and abandonment issues, his unhealthy attitude towards women – all taken from the comics. The only difference here is that he worked for the FBI instead of the NSA, and that Kingpin played a role in his origins. (END SPOILER). But other than those two things – which really don't matter – he was perfectly comic accurate. His skill set was brilliantly depicted, mixing advanced CQC skills with god-tier throwing abilities and high-level durability. His personality was also spot on, blending gleeful sadistic maniac with mentally-weak manchild. In terms of Easter eggs, I noticed his apartment number was 131.


And Daredevil Vol 1 #131 is the first issue Bullseye appeared in.


I also thought there were some really funny moments with Dex: (SPOILER) like the way he kept saying "That's really hard" every time he was pretending to care about someone else's feelings; or the scene where he's working on the suicide prevention hotline and is trying to goad that one guy into killing his stepdad; or the scene in the final episode where he's driving around dressed as Daredevil with the frozen corpse of the woman he was stalking sat beside him. (END SPOILER) Bullseye in the comics is intimidating and funny at the same time, and that's also true of the MCU version. He was genuinely scary and threatening, but also made me chuckle out loud on a number of occasions. My one criticism is that (SPOILER) we never got to see him in his classic comic book costume. I feel like Kingpin's story deserves a break and Fisk should probably sit the next season out. But I want Bullseye to return as quickly as possible in season 4, and next time bring his classic costume with him. He's already developed a fondness for wearing an armoured suit, so there's adequate reason for him to get another. They could just adapt the Daredevil suit he wore in season 3; saw the horns off, paint it black and add a white target emblem to the forehead. Perfect. (END SPOILER) I've been waiting years to see a good live action version of Bullseye, and this didn't disappoint. Wilson Bethel did a fantastic job and I hope we'll be seeing more of him in the future.

One thing I didn't like about this season is (SPOILER) the fact we never get to see Matt back in the red suit. I loved the black costume in season 1 and was glad to hear it was making a return in season 3. But I was hoping he'd get back in the red costume by the finale, and unfortunately he didn't (though he may have recovered the red suit now that Bullseye's been defeated). It's reached the point where Matt has worn the black suit for more episodes than he's worn the red one. I do like the black outfit, but at this stage I think it's overstayed its welcome and should be permanently retired. (END SPOILER) Henceforth, I only want to see Daredevil in the red costume.

I've got lots more to say, but I'll leave it there for the time being. I hope other site members will finish the season soon so we can talk about it in more depth and start posting spoiler videos and pictures. One last thing I'll say for now is that season 3 has by far the best finale of any Marvel Netflix show so far. The intensity cranks up to insane levels and (SPOILER) the final three-way fight between Daredevil, Kingpin and Bullseye is an outstanding showcase of the three characters' different fighting styles. I don't think they've ever even done that match-up in the comics, and I certainly never expected to see it in the TV show. But it was beautifully executed and is tied with the church sequence as my favourite fight of the season. (END SPOILER)

Now I've had a couple of days to think about it, here are some more observations.

Plotlines focusing on police or FBI agents usually rate amongst the weaker links in these Marvel Netflix shows. Too often they feel like superfluous commentary on the main action, delivered by uninteresting peripheral characters that are connected to the central protagonists by professional ties rather than personal. I liked Ray Nadeem as a character, but some of his scenes early in the season felt like they might be falling into that familiar trap. However Ray's storyline got a lot more interesting when (SPOILER) it became apparent that Kingpin was running the FBI. At that point, Nadeem's situation became downright scary. (END SPOILER) I liked the way John Paesano's doom-laden score punctuated the hopelessness of his situation. I felt sorry for the guy and was hoping he'd find a way out of his predicament. Some of the arguments between him and his wife got a little tiresome, but they were necessary to contextualise the emotional and familial fragility that was weighing on his mind. Like the rest of the cast, Jay Ali did an excellent job. Even though his character did some questionable things, he never came across as unsympathetic.

Nadeem is the first really prominent character in the Daredevil TV series to take such a central role without being based on any one person from the comics. That said, I'd argue his storyline did draw from a couple of classic plotlines. The whole storyline about Fisk's interactions with the FBI was clearly indebted to The Murdock Papers by Bendis and Maleev, and Ray can be seen as a composite of several agents who featured in that saga. If we analyse season 3 from the perspective of it being a Born Again adaptation, then Nadeem can also be seen as filling in for Ben Urich and Nick Manolis; (SPOILER) he took Ben's role as the family man being controlled by the Kingpin and fearing for his relatives' safety (both stories feature a scene where Daredevil saves Ben/Ray's family from Fisk's assassin(s)), and he took Manolis' role as a law enforcement figure who was formerly under Fisk's control, but then tried testifying against him only to be murdered by one of Kingpin's assassins. (END SPOILER)

Moving on to Karen, I'm not sure how I feel about (SPOILER) the fact she survived. I really thought she was going to die this season, and that perhaps she ought to have done. All of her secrets have now been revealed, and most of her classic comic storylines have played out on screen (unless they're planning to do a storyline where she's tricked into thinking she has AIDS). I'm not sure where there is left to go with this character. They're into uncharted territory. But that could be a good thing. I understand them not wanting to have two seasons in a row end with Matt's love interest being killed, and having season 3 conclude on such a downbeat note would have robbed it of the spiritually-restorative climax that's essential to the themes of Born Again. It's been strongly implied in the comics that Karen was Matt's one true love, so perhaps the MCU versions will get married and enjoy the life their 616 counterparts were cruelly denied. Having Karen become the third partner in Matt and Foggy's legal practice echoes Becky Blake's storyline in the eighties (their new storefront legal service is also a nice nod to the seventies comics). Maybe from now on they'll draw from other comic characters' storylines to fuel Karen's arc. If she and Matt get married, then they could adapt elements from Milla Donovan's history (e.g. Brubaker and Lark's Without Fear). It could work. A part of me still thinks Karen should have died this season, but I'll wait and see how they follow up on this in season 4 before deciding whether or not her survival was a mistake. (END SPOILER)

I've noticed certain criticisms of the season finale getting repeated in online comments, and even in some reviews. I'd just like to quickly address those now. (SPOILER) Quite a few people are saying it made no sense for Daredevil to send Bullseye to kill Kingpin, then try to stop Dex, only to then try to kill Kingpin himself. But I thought it was pretty clear that Matt didn't send Dex to kill Fisk. Daredevil needed to know the security plans for Fisk's wedding, and he couldn't get the information out of Manning. So Matt manipulated Dex into infiltrating the wedding, neutralising the guards along the way, and then simply followed him along the most direct route to Fisk. Daredevil didn't want Bullseye to kill Kingpin anyway. He wasn't even 100% committed to killing Fisk himself at that point. Bullseye wasn't trying to kill Kingpin either – he was trying to kill Vanessa in order to pay Fisk back for having Julie murdered. I thought all of this was pretty clear, but a surprisingly large number of viewers seem to be confused about it. I've also seen some people complaining about Vanessa running upstairs after Fisk tells her to head downstairs. But she was obviously heading for the secret stairway located on the upper floor of Fisk's apartment. It makes more sense to use the secure secret escape route than the public one that's already been compromised.

Some people have complained about Matt snapping out of his depression in the final episode. But why wouldn't he? He defeated his enemy, conquered his inner demons, resisted temptation, rediscovered his faith, learned his mother is still alive, reunited with his friends and got his old life back. Matt Murdock was reborn in the finale, so why shouldn't he be happy at last? Most bizarre of all though, I've even seen some people – people who claim to be Daredevil fans – saying Matt should have killed Fisk and questioning why he didn't. I'm sorry, but anyone who still doesn't understand why Daredevil won't kill clearly doesn't get the character on the most basic level. Matt's refusal to murder Fisk in the finale was his greatest triumph of the entire season. By making that decision, he saved his own soul. If you want to see what would happen to Matt if he did kill Fisk, then check out the alternate version of Born Again from What If? Vol 2 #2 (August 1989). (END SPOILER)

To end this post, I would once again like to reiterate just how brilliant the Daredevil vs. Bullseye fight scenes were. They were as fast and brutal as I was hoping. The stunt team deserve some serious kudos for this.


It was particularly satisfying to watch Matt smashing Bullseye through all those walls after he (SPOILER) murdered Lantom. (END SPOILER)


Did anyone else notice that poster in Fogwell's Gym advertising the bout between Parker and Morales?


Surely a Spider-Man reference?

Anyway, now all I need is for Marvel and Netflix to confirm season 4...

Haven't read SN's posts... because I haven't watched the season yet.

But when I do, I shall return.

Oh yes. I shall return.

Be sure of that.

Tl;dr version: it's awesome. Probably the best season yet, though that might be post-release hype talking. But the series as a whole is the best dark/serious superhero adaptation ever in my humble, irrelevant and unworthy opinion.

Right now I'd rate the seasons as follows:

Season 1    9/10
Season 2    8.5/10
Season 3    9.5/10

And for The Defenders, maybe a 6.5/10

Charlie Cox and Deborah Ann Woll explain the Daredevil/TMNT connection to Wilson Bethel.


And here's a recent Facebook Live chat session with Charlie. It contains some mild spoiler talk about fight scenes from season 3, so it's best not to watch it until you've finished all 13 episodes.

I binge watched the entire season over the weekend. While Season 1 remains my favourite, I give Season 3 a big thumbs up and is more consistent in quality than Season 2. Some SPOILERS below:


I loved how Wilson Fisk came back with a vengeance as he exerts his influence and manipulates the FBI in order to take control of the city. Even more so, I loved how Matt Murdock's morals were put to the test this season. It looked like he was beginning to understand Frank Castle's perspective when he was seriously contemplating killing Fisk, but eventually, Matt saved the day without spilling blood on his hands. But he has learned to become very cunning, as you can see in how he uses the truth to turn Poindexter against Fisk.

The season does end on a somewhat stereotypically happy ending, but focusing only on that totally ignores the personal tragedies along the way. The sacrifices made by Agent Nadeem to expose the conspiracy, Father Lanthom saving Karen Page, Karen's devastating backstory in being responsible for the accidental of her brother and her struggles in dealing with her guilt since, the bittersweet reunion between Fisk and Vanessa, the moral conundrum behind Sister Maggie that secret from Matt, and Matt haunted by his own demons throughout. The fact that he overcame his temptations to kill by compromising a deal with Fisk to end the violence is a triumph in itself.

I haven't always liked everything Netflix has done concerning Daredevil, but the character arcs for Matt Murdock and the supporting characters have been excellent. Long it may continue in Season 4.

But one little piece of observation I'd like to make: Fisk this season was meant to reflect Donald Trump.There were too many obvious moments to ignore i.e. the news over Fisk getting released from prison being dismissed as fake news by Agent Nadeem, and Fisk dismissing allegations at a press conference.

Apparently Roy Thomas made a cameo in season 3 as one of the prison inmates.


He's written a detailed account of the experience here: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11/01/roy-thomas-cameo-marvel-daredevil-season-3/

This part is particularly interesting, where he gives his opinion on how successfully he thinks the show has adapted the comics:

QuoteInstead—but this was certainly not a disappointment—I was introduced to Charlie Cox, who plays Daredevil/Matt Murdock. Having been impressed by his work on the first two seasons, and in The Defenders, it was a distinct pleasure to meet him. I figured he'd just shake my hand and hurry off, but he had a few free minutes, and we had a chat about the show. I've been in a situation or two where I've had to fake my feelings about a movie or TV show.

In this case, I could truthfully tell Charlie how, as a former writer and later editor of Daredevil (and as a reader of the comic from its 1964 debut), I thought he and the cast and the show had all captured just the right feeling. Sure, it's more of a Frank Miller Daredevil than a Stan Lee/Roy Thomas one, but that's what they were trying to do... and as far as I was concerned, they'd done it. Karen, Foggy, The Kingpin, Stick... all excellent. Plus that wonderful extended-shot fight scene in the first season, which had lasted two harrowing minutes onscreen, and which all concerned were quite proud of. They'd followed that up with another extended battle in the second season... and I learned that January day that one of the other sequences that would be filmed at the prison, although probably not scheduled to be shot that very day, would be a really extended fight scene, throughout level after level of the building. It was going to be by far the longest of the three—the projected running-time I heard was twelve minutes! I figured it would be sensational.

I found Charlie Cox a genuinely friendly guy... either that, or he's an even better actor than I gave him credit for. I didn't realize at the time that I'd seen him before in TV series like Downton Abbey nd Boardwalk Empire... but I did notice that he had a British accent (he's part English, part Irish, and part Scottish, apparently) when he wasn't playing an American attorney and a masked super-hero. For his part, he seemed pleased that a guy who'd written the Daredevil comic liked the show and wasn't worried about any inconsistencies between comicbook and TV. He said he hadn't been aware of the comics before landing the role of Murdock/DD, but that he'd read a mound of them since to familiarize himself with DD's world. He half-joked that he figured that, if The Defenders had a leader, it would be Daredevil. I told him I totally agreed with him... which I did.

Oh my God...

Quote'Daredevil' Canceled By Netflix After 3 Seasons

https://deadline.com/2018/11/daredevil-canceled-netflix-3-seasons-1202511521/

 ???

Oh go and get f***ed.

Worst news I've heard all day. I was afraid this would happen after the rumours I've heard.

Marvel Netflix is dying a slow, painful death. What a shame.

Taken from the Deadline article:

Quote
However, unlike Iron Fist or Luke Cage, the door seems to be wide open for the blind protector of NYC's Hell's Kitchen, perhaps on the upcoming Disney+ streaming platform.

"While the series on Netflix has ended, the three existing seasons will remain on the service for years to come, while the Daredevil character will live on in future projects for Marvel,"Netflix said also.

But when a fan asked this TV critic from Rolling Stone magazine if any of the cancelled Marvel Netflix can be relaunched onto Disney's new streaming service, the feedback is extremely disappointing.

Quote from: Alan Sepinwall
The execs have already said they don't want these shows on the Disney service. And even if they did, the nature of the contracts would make it virtually impossible. They're done.

I should clarify. The Marvel shows for Disney+ are being produced by Marvel movie execs, who do not like or get along with the Marvel TV execs who made Dardevil et al. Technically, they COULD make a Luke Cage show a few years down the line. They just don't want to.

And if they did, they'd be starting over from scratch creatively, like Sony ditching the Andrew Garfield movies for Tom Holland as Spider-Man.

Source: https://twitter.com/sepinwall/status/1068324396513837058

If Alan Sepinwall is telling the truth in the quotes above, it only goes to show that the Marvel Netflix brand was never really part of the MCU like many fans believed, and the likelihood of restoring a show like Daredevil in its current tone, format and cast is nil. To that, I say good luck to Marvel/Disney trying to find another actor who can match Vincent D'Onofrio's caliber as Wilson Fisk, or match the pain and intensity Charlie Cox brought into the role as Matt Murdock. We'll probably get that awesome team-up of Daredevil exchanging quips with Tom Holland's Spider-Man and make pop culture references together!...ugh...

Sam Ernst, who was the co-executive producer on the show, tweeted this:

Quote from: Sam Ernst
Man, so weird to be in the Daredevil writers room today, getting the news that we're cancelled.  On the walls were an entire season 4 laid out - and it was so f***g cool.  So many moments we wanted the fans to see...  Sigh, this business.

Source: https://twitter.com/havensam/status/1068350428687912960

This tweet really annoys me. I feel robbed, just like every time Jay Oliva and Zack Snyder reveal what the original plans were for the DCEU's future.

It's sad, but but let's continue to cherish Daredevil as the terrific show as it is. Aside from my gripes about the second season, it's still the greatest comic book TV show ever made, in my opinion.

I am indescribably butthurt over the cancellation of this show. I'm still in a state of shock. I feel as though I've just learned the woman I love has died... and then subsequently learned that she's not really dead, but has instead absconded with all my money and fled to Tahiti with the pool boy. Netflix just cancelled the greatest superhero TV show ever. In the long history of dumb moves, this ranks as one of the dumbest. I hope they suffer mass account deactivations as a result of this.


Marvel issued the following statement yesterday:

QuoteMarvel is extremely grateful to the huge audience that loved Marvel's Daredevil. From the moment of young Matt's first act of heroism to the birth of Page, Murdock, & Nelson, it has been a unbelievable journey. We are incredibly proud of the amazing showrunners and writers starting with Drew Goddard and Steven DeKnight, Marco Ramirez and Doug Petrie and Erik Oleson, Charlie Cox, Deborah Ann Woll, Elden Henson, Vincent D'Onofrio and our casts who brought our characters to life with such excellence, and every one of the fantastic crews in NYC. We look forward to more adventures with the Man without Fear in the future.

This implies there might still be hope for the Charlie Cox Daredevil. But I fear those hopes are slim at best.

As I understand it, Netflix owns the first three seasons and intends to continue hosting them on their streaming service. So those episodes won't be 'moving' to another platform. However it is feasible that Marvel could create a follow-up series with the same cast and crew on another service or network. Disney currently owns a large share in Hulu (which streams the MCU series Runaways) and will gain a majority share if they purchase Fox. If Disney buys Fox, they'll also get FX (which hosts the X-Men series Legion). FX allows mature content, so that might be the best place for Daredevil to go if the series is to continue in its current tone and format. Another possibility is that Marvel might make a new Daredevil series for the upcoming Disney+ streaming service, but that would entail toning the content down to a family-friendly level. And previous reports have indicated the Marvel Netflix shows aren't welcome on Disney+ anyway, so this seems unlikely.

Yet another possibility, and perhaps the most probable, is that we're in for a cinematic reboot. This would involve Marvel relegating the Netflix shows to their own pocket universe; some kind of alternate reality spun off from the Phase One films, but disconnected from everything that came afterwards. That would be incredibly disrespectful to the fans, not to mention the cast and crew. But it's a very real possibility. What should we expect from a cinematic reboot? Probably a lighter, more FX-driven version of Daredevil inspired by the Silver Age and Mark Waid runs. And they'll almost certainly aim for a family-friendly PG-13 tone similar to those of the other MCU films.


I wouldn't have minded something like this after the TV show had run its course, but I resent the series being cancelled prematurely in favour of such a project. The Netflix 13-episode TV-MA format was perfect for Daredevil. It didn't work well for Iron Fist, but IMO it was the best possible way they could have adapted the Daredevil comics. Anything that deviates from that format, whether it's a TV-14 series or a feature film, is going to feel inferior.

That said, if there is a reboot coming then I'm going to try and be open-minded about it. But it's going to be very difficult to accept anyone other than Charlie in the role. Obviously someone else will play Daredevil eventually, but right now it should be him. It would be different if he declined to reprise the role, like Keaton did in 1995, or if he was simply too old for the part, like West was in 1989. But that's not the case here. Cox is still young and in his prime. He's a graduate of the Bristol Old Vic Theatre School (the same prestigious drama school that produced Daniel Day-Lewis, Patrick Stewart and Jeremy Irons) and is a damn near perfect physical match for the Matt Murdock in the comics. In the most recent season he was executing far more challenging fighting moves and complex choreography than anything any of the Batman actors ever attempted.


In addition to this, he's shown tremendous commitment and enthusiasm for the role. Here he is visiting a school for the blind in New York where he gave out free Funko Pop! Daredevil toys.


And here he is with some young fans.


This guy is Matt Murdock. I want to be open-minded about a potential reboot, but I'm not sure I'll be able to accept anyone else in the role knowing that Marvel already had the perfect actor and discarded him. Same goes for D'Onofrio as Kingpin. He's made the part his own and I can't imagine anyone else doing justice to Fisk the way he did. Once again, if they were recasting the role 20 years from now then I'd be open to seeing someone else play Kingpin. But right now we have the perfect actor, and if he's willing to reprise the role then it makes sense to use him.

Ideally I would have liked at least two more seasons with Charlie and Vincent, and then maybe follow those up with a trilogy of movies. But since we're not likely to get that now, here are eight predictions for things that I think could/would have happened in season 4. This is going to contain spoilers for season 3, but since the show's now been out for over a month I won't bother marking them in white.

---

1)  MR FEAR

Being the next rogue down on the villain hierarchy, the Larry Cranston version of Mr Fear would have been the logical pick for the central antagonist in season 4. I can imagine a Netflix version of Cranston being portrayed as a mob lawyer who poisons his enemies with fear toxin in order to manipulate, terrorise or discredit them. Ed Brubaker's Without Fear storyline would have offered good material for the plot.




2) MORE COURTROOM DRAMA

I get the feeling season 4 might have played up the courtroom aspect of the show even more than the first three seasons did. This is another reason why it would make sense to have an evil lawyer like Larry Cranston as the main villain. Season 3 ended with Nelson, Murdock and Page establishing their storefront legal practice, similar to the one Matt and Foggy had in the Bronze Age comics. I can envisage Mr Fear trying to ruin their business as they struggle to build a client list. And their first client would likely have been...


3) GLADIATOR

Melvin Potter's storyline was left up in the air at the end of season 3 and I expect Matt and Foggy would have offered their legal services to try and help him out. Matt Gerald was physically perfect for the role and did a fantastic job conveying the inharmonious balance between Potter's monstrous strength and childlike vulnerability.


The one major aspect of his psychological profile that was overlooked was his hallucinations. This was hinted at in season 1 when he talked about getting "confused", but they never outright showed it. In the TV series, they could have explained his hallucinations were a consequence of Mr Fear's toxin. Cranston could have secretly dosed Potter to make him act out violently. Mr Fear did something similar to Melvin in the comics during Brubaker's 'To the Devil, His Due' (Daredevil Vol 2 #95-99, May-September 2007), which led directly into the Without Fear storyline. Why would Cranston target Potter in the TV show? Perhaps because Potter knew more about Fisk and New York's criminal underworld than was previously thought, and thus needed to be silenced; or maybe Cranston just wanted to ruin Nelson and Murdock's defence case.


4) FOGGY'S MARRIAGE

Marci is effectively the TV show's answer to Debbie Harris, Foggy's ex-wife in the comics. I think they would have tied the knot in season 4, only for the marriage to become strained when Foggy's behaviour turned erratic as a result of his dealings with Cranston. They already adapted elements of Guardian Devil in season 3 – most notably the church fight – but it might have been a good idea to continue drawing from this story in season 4. Particularly with regards to Foggy's relationship with Marci. In Guardian Devil Foggy's relationship with Liz Allen fell apart after he cheated on her with a woman he was subsequently accused of murdering.


This happened as a result of Mysterio poisoning Foggy with an hallucinogen. I don't think he would necessarily have cheated on Marci in the TV show, but I can imagine him being manipulated by Mr Fear as part of a similar scheme to discredit him. It would also have been an interesting role reversal to have Foggy be the one acting out and Matt the one covering for him.


5) MATT AND MAGGIE

We saw flashbacks depicting a young Maggie in season 3, but there's more to that story than what was shown. It took Matt a while to finally forgive his mother for abandoning him in the comics, and it likely would have taken some time for them to fully reconcile in the TV show as well. I think they would have delved into Maggie's back story in greater depth in season 4, perhaps revealing that she'd tried to harm Matt when he was a baby owing to her postpartum depression. This would help explain why she walked out on her family. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd already shot some of those flashback scenes when they were filming the flashbacks for season 3.



6) NEW SUPPORTING CHARACTERS

The deaths of Agent Nadeem and Father Lantom created vacancies in the cast list. Maybe Matt and Foggy would have taken on some new staff at their legal practice. They might have introduced Willie Lincoln, or possibly Becky Blake. Becky worked at their storefront legal clinic in the comics, and there was a story by Frank Miller (Daredevil Vol 1 #173, August 1981) in which she misidentified Melvin Potter as the assailant who put her in a wheelchair. Again, this could have tied in with the Mr Fear plot. Cranston could have tricked Becky into thinking Potter was the one who attacked her as a way of undermining Foggy and Matt's case.


7) BULLSEYE RETURNS

After that final teaser, how could they not bring him back? Bethel killed it in the role and I'm confident we would have seen him return with his reinforced skeleton and some variation of his classic comic book costume. The fact we won't get to see this is perhaps the single most frustrating aspect of the show's cancellation.



8 ) A NEW RED SUIT

A new and improved red suit was more or less guaranteed. I wish he'd got it in the season 3 finale, especially in light of the show's cancellation, but I'm sure he would have got it in season 4.

---

So those are some of my thoughts on the cancellation. I'm struggling to see any positives in this. It's bad news, plain and simple. Marvel and Netflix created arguably the greatest dark comic book adaptation ever (certainly on television) and now they're ending it. I'm still hoping there'll be some kind of a reprieve. But if this really is the end of the line for this version of Daredevil, then at least we got to see him in 39 episodes of his solo series, plus 8 episodes of The Defenders and a cameo in the Jessica Jones season 1 prequel comic. I've got a lot of happy memories of this incarnation of The Man Without Fear, and I won't be forgetting them any time soon.


And in keeping with my tradition of using Agent Cooper 'thumbs up' GIFs, here's one just for you Netflix.

A month ago, I remember Screen Rant reporting the show was losing viewership by more than half of what it had earned in the second season. It's because of this speculation I started to notice rumours the show risked cancellation, which ended up being true.

Quote
Netflix considers their viewing figures to be a closely-guarded secret. In the absence of firm data, though, certain analytics companies have stepped forward to offer unique insight into the popularity of various Netflix series. Screen Rant has spoken exclusively to Jumpshot, a San Francisco-based analytics company. Their anonymized global panel tracks five billion actions a day across 100 million devices to deliver insights into online consumer behavior. They've been monitoring the Netflix Originals since 2016, looking at the viewing behavior and activity of their US members. While Jumpshot's data does have limitations - most notably that this only covers US audiences - it does still give a sense of just what's going on with the Marvel Netflix shows. Early this week we reported that Iron Fist and Luke Cage's second seasons suffered a massive drop in viewership, now we look at the Devil of Hell's Kitchen

According to Jumpshot, Daredevil season 2 is still the most-watched Marvel Netflix series since 2016. Season 3 hasn't fared as well; when Jumpshot compared the first weeks of the two seasons, they found viewership had dropped by 57 percent. The first week is a critical period for the Marvel Netflix shows (and, indeed, for all Netflix Originals). The bulk of views happen within that first-week window, with a steep drop over the next month or so to a background level.

Source: https://screenrant.com/daredevil-season-3-ratings-viewers-down-season-2/

Maybe there's more to the story than a simple falling out between Disney and Netflix? Could it be that Daredevil was a cost cutting casualty, because it was too expensive to produce, among other reasons? Who knows.

EDITS- Minor corrections for posting after drinking too much bourbon.

Sorry for my late contributions to this discussion but only finished the season a few hours ago.

Season 01 holds a special place in my heart. It's lean, mean, all business and incredibly busy establishing the tone, style and visual language of this series. Cox is always gold but, again, for some reason the first season has a special value for me. I can't even fully articulate some of it.

That said, I have to agree with SN that season 03 could be the best of the show's run. In total, this is an otherwise brilliant show with a fair-to-middlin' sophomore season. And since Defenders is kind of like season 02.5, I'll go ahead and say Defenders is a notch or two better than the second season. They're all good; just saying season 02 isn't quite to the same level as the rest.

Near the end of this season, Karen had somewhat worn out her welcome with me. Now seemed like a good time to send her off. It's tempting to say that she created a lot of unnecessary trouble this season and, ultimately, made things a lot harder than they really needed to be for everybody else. Killing Lantom HURT.

But killing Lantom in light of Karen's virtual obsolescence was salt in the wound.

Still, small matters. In the big scheme of things, Daredevil and Kingpin arrive at the same strange detente that persisted in the comics for decades. They both have each other over a barrel. So, under the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction, they have no choice but to stay away from each other's sensitive areas.

But the TV show sweetens the pot by making Vanessa, Foggy and Karen collateral damage. It's not JUST about Daredevil and Kingpin at this point. If either side makes moves against the other's loved ones, all bets are off. And it really is war.

I love this dynamic between Kingpin and Daredevil in the comics because it forces both characters to compromise somewhat. Considering the varying levels of importance that each character attaches to eastern philosophical concepts, the fact that they are living out part of the thematic structure of the yin-yang is fitting. It's not a quite perfect synthesis of yin-yang but it's really good.

Dex. You know, Bullseye is one of those characters in the comics that I always enjoyed but wasn't especially invested in. I recognize the value and historic importance of Miller's run. But when it comes to sheer pound-for-pound enjoyment, I personally enjoy the Bendis and Brubaker runs that tiny bit more than Miller's work. And a big part of that is Bullseye, I think. My overall lesser attachment to him probably affected my enjoyment of the Bullseye elements of Miller's run.

Season 03 gave me a much deeper appreciation for Bullseye. The buzzing sound effects when he's REALLY unbalanced help drive home how off his rocker the guy really is. I also adored the pseudo-secret identity (secret identities?) he uses. There's Dex, the upstanding war hero turned FBI agent. There's Benjamin Poindexter, stalker par excellence and all around weirdo. And then there's the proto-Bullseye, the unrepentant killer who enjoys murder because it's one of the few things he's really good at.

How can somebody not enjoy Dex's fights with Daredevil? In this show, Daredevil is an all but unstoppable fighting machine. He may get hurt bad in a fight but he generally wins. Dex was more than a match for Daredevil. Matt's genuine fear of Dex because of his deadly aim and fighting proficiency really helped sell the threat. Dex isn't some random street thug. He's probably the most all-around dangerous human fighter Daredevil has ever traded shots with.

One trap that some writers fall into is giving Daredevil and Bullseye too many of the same basic talents. Bullseye has perfect aim. And very often, Daredevil is shown to have something similar, for who knows what reason. Daredevil's nigh-superhuman hearing gives him amazing balance... and sometimes Bullseye is shown to have incredible balance as well.

The third season never forgets that Bullseye has certain skills that Daredevil can't quite match. But the same is true in reverse. So Dex has every possible reason to "fight" Daredevil from afar while Daredevil has every possible reason to fight up-close as much as he can. It makes each character a serious threat to the other.

I love the previous seasons but, yeah, I think the third season is probably the champ. The black uniform works for me in that it symbolizes Murdock's rejection (however temporary) of the ideals the red uniform represents.

Probably the best element for me was Murdock's determination to whack Fisk after the death of Nadeen. Foggy realized Matt only needed time to get his head back on straight. When push comes to shove, When the chips are down, Matt can never bring himself to actually go through with it. But in the moment, when he says he's out for blood, he truly MEANS it. Foggy's efforts to slow Matt down probably saved Fisk's life... and possibly Matt's soul.

Another amazing thing is Vanessa. She was a passive spectator in the first season. Everybody pretended she didn't know the full extent of Fisk's horrors. But she has an imagination. And obviously, Fisk's darkness isn't repellent to her at all. At one point, she orders somebody's death AND FISK'S MEN OBEY HER AS IF THE ORDER CAME FROM FISK HIMSELF.

In that scene, D'Onofrio makes a face along the lines of seeing Vanessa in a whole new light. Does Fisk now consider Vanessa a potential threat? His expression suggested that the wheels were turning for him. Could there ever be circumstances where Vanessa might become dangerous to him?

Of course, we'll probably never know. It's unlikely we'll ever see a continuation of the Netflixverse. This is truly heartbreaking. Daredevil fans don't have much we can point to in live action as valid and complete representations of Daredevil. The 2003 film simply has too many problems and flaws to ever be definitive. But the Netflix show, while perhaps too gunshy about the costume drama elements of the comics, is a radical improvement over everything that's come before.

And that's not just due to tone, writing or anything else. As much as anything, the cast MAKES this series. Cox, in particular, is a joy in the role. A very Maleev-like take on the character with a voice and grit that oozes Bendis all over the place. The Maleev/Bendis elements of the show in general and Cox in particular simply cannot be denied. Period.

In order for any reboot to be viable, it has to be a departure from what's come before. So that probably means saying goodbye (at least for now) to virtually everything that makes the Netflix show nigh perfect for me.

Corporate politics? Wise business decisions? That's showbiz? I have no idea what the true cause for these cancellations might be. But what I know for sure is that it's disappointing. If Netflix doesn't like the "ratings" for this show, maybe they shouldn't wait so many years between seasons.

I'm ticked off about this. There's no forgiveness to be had for this. But I'll always cherish what we got. Three and a half seasons of great Daredevil stories which finally exorcise the demons of the 2003 Johnson film from Daredevil's non-comics media legacy. If that's the only good thing to come out of all this, it was worth doing.

Disappointing but still a great ride.

Great write up, colors. I'm glad you enjoyed season 3.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 30 Dec  2018, 07:09The third season never forgets that Bullseye has certain skills that Daredevil can't quite match. But the same is true in reverse. So Dex has every possible reason to "fight" Daredevil from afar while Daredevil has every possible reason to fight up-close as much as he can. It makes each character a serious threat to the other.

The fight scenes also made excellent use of the environments. Partly due to Bullseye's use of improvised weaponry, but also in the way the combatants use the furniture and scenery to their advantage.



Most fight scenes in other films and TV shows can be transposed to any setting, but these fights were custom choreographed for their locations. They really are incredible. Fast, brutal and technically advanced, with excellent use of surrounding objects and structures. And as you say, both characters' fighting styles accurately reflect the comics and communicate something to the viewer about their personalities.

Bullseye's a sadist, but also a coward at heart. He uses stabbing implements and projectiles to inflict damage from a distance, but buckles under pressure when the fight gets up close and personal. He's a good fighter, but not as good as Daredevil. He knows this, so whenever the battle gets too intense he distances himself from Matt and blitzes him with projectiles.

Daredevil's throwing skills are ridiculously good, but still not on a par with Bullseye's. At a distance, Matt knows he can't win. He relies on his radar-enhanced reflexes to deflect/dodge Dex's attacks (with mixed success), then uses his stealth and agility to close the gap between them. Up close, he can wreck Bullseye with medium difficulty.

But neither character completely dominates the other, since the combative dynamic keeps seesawing between CQC and ranged attacks. Bullseye wants to keep his enemy beyond arm's reach, while Daredevil wants to bring his in close. Both fighters try to manoeuvre their opponent onto unfavourable ground so they can take control of the situation, and watching the balance of power shift back and forth between them is part of what makes their duels so compelling.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 30 Dec  2018, 07:09Near the end of this season, Karen had somewhat worn out her welcome with me. Now seemed like a good time to send her off. It's tempting to say that she created a lot of unnecessary trouble this season and, ultimately, made things a lot harder than they really needed to be for everybody else. Killing Lantom HURT.

I sort of feel the same way. I don't dislike Karen at all, but I do feel like her storyline is played out. At least in terms of adapting her major comic arcs. I'm sure the writers had plans for her in season 4 and I would've liked to have seen how her storyline progressed. I suspect they might have started incorporating elements from other comic characters' story arcs, such as Heather Glenn or Milla Donovan. Alternatively they might have moved beyond the comics completely and allowed Karen to transcend the boundaries of her literary history. Unlike the 616 Karen, the MCU version managed to curb her drug addiction before it consumed her entirely. And unlike the 616 Daredevil, the MCU version managed to protect Karen from Bullseye. These differences are significant. The Karen in the TV show has weathered adversity more successfully than the comic book version, and she now has the opportunity to advance into previously unexplored waters (e.g. becoming a private investigator, marrying Matt, etc).

As far as the show's prospects of resurrection are concerned, we still don't have much to go on. I don't think we'll hear anything concrete about Marvel's plans for The Defenders until after the final season of Jessica Jones has been released. In the meantime Kevin Mayer, Chairman of Direct-to-Consumer and International division at Disney, has confirmed the characters could be revived on another service such as Disney+:

Quote"We haven't yet discussed that, but I would say that's a possibility."

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a25615188/disney-streaming-service-could-save-marvel-netflix-daredevil-luke-cage-iron-fist/

However it's also been revealed that none of these shows could be revived for a period of at least two years after their final season has been released on Netflix:

QuoteSources tell Variety that the deal for the original four Marvel shows includes a clause that prevents the characters from appearing in any non-Netflix series or film for at least two years after cancellation. That means that "Daredevil," "Luke Cage," and "Iron Fist" — which were all canceled this year at Netflix — could not come to the Disney streaming service until 2020 at the earliest.

https://variety.com/2018/tv/news/defenders-disney-streaming-daredevil-iron-fist-luke-cage-jessica-jones-1203087219/

Hopefully Marvel can find a way around this to get Daredevil back in action sooner.

https://www.savedaredevil.com/

Charlie Cox on what would have happened in season 4:

Quote"They'd had a preliminary conversation with me about what might happen and who might be involved or what the story might be. That was exciting me and what I heard was very exciting. So I had a vague sense of what the show might be. I had some idea.

"I was looking forward to Wilson Bethel kind of getting to inhabit the character of Bullseye. Season 3 was kind of an origin story for the character and how Agent Poindexter becomes that character. So I was looking forward to having a season where he really embodies the Bullseye persona and what that dynamic would be between Bullseye and Daredevil."

And on the cancellation:

Quote"I know that it's not personal, or it certainly doesn't feel personal to me. Obviously, I'm very saddened by the cancellation and I was shocked by it because Season 3 had been so well received. I imagined we would continue making the show."

https://www.inverse.com/article/52610-daredevil-season-4-spoilers-charlie-cox-talks-possible-plot-lines

While Daredevil season 3 will doubtless be snubbed for all major awards (it already lost the SAG best stunt award to GLOW), it has received the Golden Tomato fans' choice award for best TV show of 2018: https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/guide/fan-favorites-television/

Meanwhile Charlie Cox has admitted to creating a fake email account for his baby daughter and using it to sign the 'Save Daredevil' petition :D:

Quote"I wasn't sure about adding my email because I'm not very technically savvy, and I didn't want to suddenly put my email online; I don't know if it's visible or not. But what I did do is I made a fake email for my two-year-old daughter, and she signed it."

https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/01/24/daredevil-charlie-cox-signed-save-daredevil-petition/

Cheeky.

I like it!

Yeah, Daredevil is liable to get overlooked with awards. Apparently only dead Joker actors and the Black Panther are allowed to be recognized for awards. Whatever, oh well. If mainstream approval mattered to me, I would've chosen a different hobby.

It looks like Netflix is taking full advantage of that two year clause to hurt Marvel in whatever petty way they can. But I think there's plenty of ways to coast off the success of season 3 without waiting the full two years to possibly revive/reboot the show. Daredevil was a perfect, recognizable name to bring to TV audiences that wasn't as popular as the main Avengers. I mean, he still had more name recognition than Ant-Man, Captain Marvel, and the Guardians, but I digress. The brand was improved from the TV series, and I think it's perfectly suitable for movies. Marvel usually teases a character before giving them a solo adventure, but there's plenty of established characters to tell a meaningful story with. Black Widow would be great, but the timeline of her solo film would put it before Daredevil's conception.

With Marvel recently announcing several new TV series to air on Hulu (which is mostly owned by Disney), the network's senior vice president Craig Erwich has confirmed they're open to reviving the Netflix shows.

QuoteHulu Is Open to 'Daredevil' or 'Luke Cage': Originals Boss Cites 'Good Creative Relationship' With Marvel

https://www.thewrap.com/hulus-open-to-daredevil-or-luke-cage-originals-boss-cites-good-creative-relationship-with-marvel/

QuoteWe've had a relationship with Marvel since 'Runaways,' we're getting into business on these animated shows. I'm sure it will lead to — you know, business gets you business — we have a good creative relationship with them. That's where opportunities tend to arise.

This next quote sounds as though it's referring to the 2-year hiatus stipulated in the Netflix contracts.

QuoteMarvel has a ton of titles we'd be interested in. It kind of just depends on when they're ready, [and] who, most importantly, is going to be behind these things.

So there's still hope.

In unrelated news, Charlie Cox is guest appearing in Deborah Ann Woll's new Dungeons & Dragons series Relics & Rarities.

Here's some cool fan art.

[ Disclosure ] I have no history or experience with PR or higher level corporate wheeler-dealer strategies. I do, however, have a talent for recognizing sneaky lawyer tricks sometimes. [/ Disclosure ]

I'm not the only one who's speculating that Erwich is doing an end-run around the two year hibernation thing. It's an old trick. One party is under contract and cannot make offers to other parties. Because that would violate the contract.

So instead, other parties either make offers to them. The first party's contract can't possibly forbid that. Alternatively, other parties might make offers in public (A) to get the first party's attention and (B) to whip up public support a little bit. Either approach allows the party under contract to consider offers without violating said contract.

Hulu is a major streaming platform. And while they're not necessarily hurting right now, the years to come look like they'll include one hell of a blood bath with all these different platforms. The market will get awfully crowded very soon. The next year or three will be hand-to-hand combat.

Amazon has several popular original shows. They're doing well and they should be taken seriously.

Disney+ will be the most massive game-changer the streaming industry has ever seen. In a sane world, Disney would be a good candidate for antitrust action.

Netflix is streamlining their service and raising prices in advance of the nuclear bomb that Disney+ represents.

If the powers that be at Hulu aren't s**ting bricks right now, they f***ing should be. Any sane manager at Hulu right now should be searching far and wide for IP's to develop or to buy out from somebody else.

Therefore, nabbing the MC(Netflix)U would be a massive coup for Hulu. They need original content and they need IP's with built in audiences.

Friends, this isn't a joke. Erwich is serious as a g****mn heart attack about this. I stake my reputation on it.

[ Prediction ] I have no idea exactly how the dust will settle with the streaming services. But I'll venture a guess and suggest to you that Netflix is facing the most serious peril right now. Everybody else has cover from other parts of their business. Netflix doesn't and they've topped out on their audience in the US. There aren't huge numbers of new Netflix subscribers to be found in America right now. At the very minimum, Netflix had better be ready to take this straight to the chin. [/ Prediction ]

I really hope you're right. My only concern is that Hulu isn't available here in the UK. But I'm sure they can find another way of distributing the series outside of the US.

And that's a very good point about Hulu needing big IPs to compete with the other streaming platforms. Obviously Netflix has a lot of popular original content, so they can afford to take their Marvel shows for granted (see the abrupt cancellations and lack of promotion for the most recent seasons as proof of this). Hulu, on the other hand, might prioritise a show like Daredevil. Which could mean bigger budgets and shorter intervals between seasons.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for this.

I believe this would be a mutually beneficial deal. Like I said, Amazon Prime has solid original shows which are popular with viewers. I don't think Amazon would necessarily bend over backwards to accommodate Marvel Netflix. Why would they when they're not hurting for content right now?

Netflix obviously isn't interested.

YouTube Red probably can't afford full seasons of all these shows.

There's still a chance Disney+ may want the Netflix shows for themselves. And even if they do, Disney may be Marvel's parent company but TPTB at Marvel have bargaining power. A deal with Disney is not guaranteed, imo.

That leaves Hulu. And whoever is calling the shots at Marvel probably regards Hulu as a good fit for these Netflix shows. Handmaid's Tale notwithstanding, Hulu isn't exactly famous for their amazing original shows. Marvel Netflix could change that overnight. It could give Hulu a presence in the original programming world that they simply don't have right now. Plus, it's not totally foreign territory for Hulu to develop Marvel properties (like Runaways).

If the two year clause exists, it's a tough deal. Nobody knows what the streaming industry will be like by then. Two years is an eternity in today's market. This deal could fizzle before it even happens. Or any number of other things might arise which make it impossible.

But right here, right now, this is a ridiculously good choice for both Hulu and Marvel. I have more confidence now that the Netflix world will continue in some capacity than I did just a few weeks ago.

Keep the faith, brother. And don't worry about distribution in Europe. One way or another, you guys will get the same goodies as the rest of us. Be certain of that.

A few days ago producer Jeph Loeb reiterated the possibility of the Netflix shows returning on another network:

Quote"I would not be surprised if any of those things reemerged. It depends on showrunner, it depends on availability of cast, all of those things. It's not like we're a doctor show where the show got canceled because of bad ratings. These are shows that have very different reasons [for ending], most of which I'm not at liberty to talk about, nor should anyone really care at the end of day."

https://heroichollywood.com/marvel-head-daredevil-luke-cage-revived/

Now, following the cancellation of The Punisher and Jessica Jones, Loeb and Marvel TV have issued the following statement:

QuoteIt had never been done before.

Four separate television series, each with different super-talented showrunners, writers, directors, cast and crew, coming out months apart and then...

...they would meet in a single event series all set in the heart of New York City.

We called them The Defenders.

And together we were thrilled by stories of Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and even the Punisher joined in!

They said it couldn't be done.

But Marvel assembled amazing teams to write, produce, direct, edit, and score 13 seasons and 161 one-hour episodes.

Take a moment and go online and look at the dazzling list of actors, writers, directors, and musicians who graced us with the very best of their craft.

We loved each and every minute of it.

And we did it all for you -- the fans -- who cheered for us around the world and made all the hard work worth it.

So, Thank You!

On behalf of everyone at Marvel Television, we couldn't be more proud or more grateful to our audience.

Our Network partner may have decided they no longer want to continue telling the tales of these great characters... but you know Marvel better than that.

As Matthew Murdock's Dad once said, "The measure of a man is not how he gets knocked to the mat, it's how he gets back up."

To be continued...!

- Jeph Loeb and all of us at Marvel Television

https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/a-letter-to-marvel-television-fans-from-jeph-loeb

It sure sounds like they've got something in the pipeline. :)

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 18 Feb  2019, 18:45
A few days ago producer Jeph Loeb reiterated the possibility of the Netflix shows returning on another network:

Quote"I would not be surprised if any of those things reemerged. It depends on showrunner, it depends on availability of cast, all of those things. It's not like we're a doctor show where the show got canceled because of bad ratings. These are shows that have very different reasons [for ending], most of which I'm not at liberty to talk about, nor should anyone really care at the end of day."

https://heroichollywood.com/marvel-head-daredevil-luke-cage-revived/

Now, following the cancellation of The Punisher and Jessica Jones, Loeb and Marvel TV have issued the following statement:

QuoteIt had never been done before.

Four separate television series, each with different super-talented showrunners, writers, directors, cast and crew, coming out months apart and then...

...they would meet in a single event series all set in the heart of New York City.

We called them The Defenders.

And together we were thrilled by stories of Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and even the Punisher joined in!

They said it couldn't be done.

But Marvel assembled amazing teams to write, produce, direct, edit, and score 13 seasons and 161 one-hour episodes.

Take a moment and go online and look at the dazzling list of actors, writers, directors, and musicians who graced us with the very best of their craft.

We loved each and every minute of it.

And we did it all for you -- the fans -- who cheered for us around the world and made all the hard work worth it.

So, Thank You!

On behalf of everyone at Marvel Television, we couldn't be more proud or more grateful to our audience.

Our Network partner may have decided they no longer want to continue telling the tales of these great characters... but you know Marvel better than that.

As Matthew Murdock's Dad once said, "The measure of a man is not how he gets knocked to the mat, it's how he gets back up."

To be continued...!

- Jeph Loeb and all of us at Marvel Television

https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/a-letter-to-marvel-television-fans-from-jeph-loeb

It sure sounds like they've got something in the pipeline. :)

At the very least just bring Daredevil back. I didn't watch the other shows, and don't intend to but I really enjoyed Daredevil. I'm currently watching season 3 for the first time, and it's pretty good. Better than season 2 so far.

Quote from: Jeph Loeb By Way Of Silver Nemesis on Mon, 18 Feb  2019, 18:45
"I would not be surprised if any of those things reemerged. It depends on showrunner, it depends on availability of cast, all of those things. It's not like we're a doctor show where the show got canceled because of bad ratings. These are shows that have very different reasons [for ending], most of which I'm not at liberty to talk about, nor should anyone really care at the end of day."

This is a pretty loaded quote. And it goes a long way toward explaining that ratings, social media impressions and other things aren't the primary factors in the various cancellations.

That should've been obvious from the jump but there was always the chance that lack of success figured into this. But if that was the case, nobody would hesitate to say so. It wouldn't be a big deal. Because it wasn't a big deal when cherished-but-unsuccessful shows like Veronica Mars, Heroes, Jericho and others got canned for low ratings.

The fact that Loeb isn't at liberty to talk about this stuff and that he makes a point of saying that he's not at liberty to talk about this stuff suggests that these cancellations were never primarily about ratings. Something else is going on.

The #SaveDaredevil campaigners have erected revolving billboards in Times Square! Our cause is gaining momentum! ;D

I think it'll be okay in the end. This heightens public awareness and that's a good thing. But I don't think anybody needs convincing that the show is worth saving.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 24 Feb  2019, 02:58
The #SaveDaredevil campaigners have erected revolving billboards in Times Square! Our cause is gaining momentum! ;D

(https://media.comicbook.com/2019/02/save-daredevil-billboard3-1159866.jpeg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0DguvDX0AAfn9y.jpg:large)

(https://mouse.latercera.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Daredevil-2-768x1024.jpeg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0CiAasXQAAFDI5.jpg:large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0CAqd7WwAAR612.jpg:large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0Boq7GUUAAjMuw.jpg:large)

Just saw this and signed the petition. Fingers crossed!

I saw this picture of a Daredevil cosplayer online. Can you decode what the message is saying?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/dbwvGmK.jpg)

Took forever to figure it out. That's really funny.

F*** Disney.

Rewatched the hallway fight from season 01. Even now, this is one of my favorite combat sequences ever. And a big part of why it works for me is how Daredevil handles himself. We're talking about five minutes of virtually non-stop leather. Even pro boxers don't do that during their fights. Here, Murdock is winded and seriously running out of gas. And that's how it is with any fight. If you're lucky, your stamina will hold up for thirty seconds. After that, if you're not praying, you better get started.

In movies and shows, usually somebody fights, like, twelve guys and walks away five minutes later without even having to catch his breath. But in the hallway fight, it's easy for me to believe that Murdock would've been done in for the entire next day. He takes some damage in the fight, sure. But the great majority of his weariness at the end of the fight comes from the sheer physical exertion of trading punches for five minutes.

I could quibble over the fight and see that cartwheel/dropkick/whatever was an unnecessary expenditure of energy when he REALLY needed to be conserving whatever he has left. But that's small potatoes, really. In the big picture, this is probably one of the most credible fight sequences in history. Yeah, you still have to believe an unarmed man defeated multiple opponents, some of whom were armed. But that shouldn't be a big hurdle for you if you can believe in "radar sense".

For me, the real tragedy of the death of the Netflixverse is that we probably won't see credible battles like this again, at least not any time soon. Putting aside how amazing Cox is in the role, I really enjoy the tone of the Netflixverse.

What a shame.

That fight scene is a masterpiece of choreography. Not just by TV standards, but by any standard. I've seen some people online criticise it for showing Daredevil struggling against ordinary goons, but context is key. Firstly this was rookie Daredevil, and he wasn't as tough or skilled as he became later on. Secondly he was already exhausted at the start of the fight and was suffering from a stab wound, a concussion, multiple damaged ribs and a partially deflated lung – and he still won the fight. I love the one-take sequences in seasons 2 and 3 as well, but the first one will always hold a special place in my heart. If it wasn't already clear from the first episode that this show was something special, then the second episode really hammered the point home.

Each fight scene in this series has its own narrative in which the choreography tells a story. A good example of this is the sequence in season 2 where Daredevil is hunting the Hand through the tunnels beneath New York. Almost the entire sequence is told through visuals and sound effects. There's a bit of dialogue from Stick towards the end, but other than that there's no talking. This is pure cinematic storytelling.


Anyway, here's a quick roundup of Daredevil news from the past few months.

Firstly there was an auction back in March where Marvel sold off lots of the props from their Netflix shows, including the Daredevil suit:
https://io9.gizmodo.com/when-marvel-starts-selling-off-props-its-time-to-reall-1833466524

In April IndieWire reported an inside source claiming the reason we haven't heard anything concrete about the future of the Netflix shows is that the contracts between Marvel and Netflix – the ones stipulating the two-year hiatus following the cancelations – mean Marvel can't even talk about bringing these characters back for two years. The article seems to imply Netflix may have threatened Marvel with litigation if they broke this agreement. If true, this would explain why no one's confirmed whether or not the shows are coming back. It would also suggest that we're not going to hear anything about Daredevil returning until next year at the earliest. Here's the original article:
https://www.indiewire.com/2019/04/disney-new-daredevil-jessica-jones-series-delay-1202127577/

And just last week, D'Onofrio stated that Daredevil has not technically been cancelled:

QuoteIt kind of left us all in this uninformed, weird place. You ask any actor on this show if they want to do it again if they had the chance and they're going to say yes, because the experience was so fun and inventive, and the characters are so strong.

I feel the same way as everybody involved, not just the actors but the crew, and even Jeph Loeb over at Marvel, we miss it, we want to do that show.

I think the writers, the producers, and the actors really got it right in the third season, and it's weird because it's not like when a show gets cancelled because it didn't really get cancelled. It's just that Netflix and Disney just kind of stopped it from happening, I guess because of deals they're making for the future.

[Daredevil is] a show that's always going to be close to my heart because of all the people involved, and if they asked me to do it again I most certainly would.

I feel like the show is not on the air but it never got cancelled, which is odd, it's a unique feeling to this business.

He also voiced his support for the fans campaigning for the show's return:

QuoteI supported them like crazy on Twitter and I know that Charlie [Cox, who plays Daredevil] does, I think most of the cast members do support it.

I mean how could you not support these fans who love the show? It would be weird to not contribute in some way so to give my support and let them know that I hear them, and agree with them, is an important thing to do, and something that I wanted to do. I support them 100 per cent.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-7102765/Daredevil-EXCLUSIVE-Vincent-DOnofrio-says-cast-uninformed-weird-place-cancellation.html

I still think it'll be revived on Hulu. I reckon we'll hear an announcement at the end of 2020, then hopefully it'll be back on our screens in summer 2021. And if it does come back, I think they should change the title to distinguish it from the Netflix show. Call it Daredevil Returns or The Man Without Fear.

One last bit of news is that Daredevil is going to be a playable character in Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, which comes out for the Nintendo Switch next month. And judging from the trailers, his character model has taken some visual cues from the Charlie Cox version.

Charlie's Daredevil mask appeared in a Spider-Man: Far From Home sketch on the Jimmy Kimmel show. At the 2:13 mark.


This is probably the only time we'll ever hear Holland's Spider-Man reference "Matt".

https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/06/12/daredevil-season-3-one-shot-hallway-scene-not-emmy-elligible/

Not that I care about the Emmys, but it would be nice to see some recognition where it's so obviously due. This show just can't catch a break.

Hate to say it. But I think that, in the end, it'll really only be fans and certain types of critics who see the value and merit of the Netflixverse. The Hollywood establishment doesn't seem to have any love for this material... and it doesn't look as though Marvel Studios is very interested in being an advocate for any of the shows, least of all Daredevil.

Sadly that's true. Jessica Jones season 3 launched on Friday, though you'd hardly know it to look at the lack of promotion or online buzz. There was just one trailer for this season, and Netflix only released it about a week before the show launched. Compare that with the marketing campaigns and hype that preceded the first round of Marvel Netflix shows back in 2015, and it's really sad to see the whole thing end with such a whimper. These guys were the Marvel Knights of the MCU. It's the end of an era.


I saw someone post a link to this Reddit AMA on another site. I don't know how legit it is, but it offers some behind-the-scenes info on what happened with these shows.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Defenders/comments/bulz4r/alright_yall_amaa/

Jeph Loeb and Jessica Henwick come off pretty badly (see the story about Jeph tearing into the kids from Stranger Things), while Charlie Cox, Jon Bernthal and Finn Jones come across well. There's some surprising info here about the producers wanting Alice Eve for DD s4 so they could adapt Nocenti's Typhoid Mary arc. I wasn't expecting that, since they'd already done a weak version of that storyline in IF s2.

This source also makes it depressingly clear that the shows are not coming back in their current form. But it sounds like Marvel might have plans to bring Cox and Bernthal back in another TV show or movie further down the line. For the rest of The Defenders though, I get the impression this really is the end.

I am choosing my words very carefully here.

I've never met Jeph Loeb. But my sense of the guy is that he's somebody who does good interviews and PR stuff, which is a more in-demand skill in Hollywood than some people might think. He's also a pretty gifted writer. His creative process looks disorganized to outsider observers but he never struggled with hitting deadlines the way a lot of other "pros" did all through the 2000's. What he hands in might not necessarily be The Grapes Of Wrath but he probably will hand whatever it is in on time, which is a more in-demand skill in the comic book "industry" than some people might think.

All in all, I can see how he's had the success he's had.

Still, I can't shake the suspicion that the guy is an unbearable a-hole behind closed doors. Everybody who has ever worked for him either has a weird unbreakable loyalty to him or else they never want to so much as hear his name ever again. I also find it telling that Mr. Nice Guy Jim Lee has done precious little work with Loeb apart from Hush, which is weird since they were both rock stars at almost the same time. Almost. Oddly enough, Jim Lee's ascendancy at DC seems oddly coincidentally timed with Loeb's descent at DC. Strange, yes?

It's an open secret that Loeb made a ton of enemies at DC Comics his first few years there. And he never completely got around that. Word is that he and Mike Carlin nearly came to blows one time over Loeb's infamous Challengers Of The Unknown miniseries. The Superman titles later did a COTU guest appearance that a lot of people (myself included) interpret as a big middle finger to Loeb.

Can I believe that Loeb berated a bunch of small children? That seems extreme even for him. But if I can believe it of anybody, it would be him.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 15 Jun  2019, 08:06
Hate to say it. But I think that, in the end, it'll really only be fans and certain types of critics who see the value and merit of the Netflixverse. The Hollywood establishment doesn't seem to have any love for this material... and it doesn't look as though Marvel Studios is very interested in being an advocate for any of the shows, least of all Daredevil.

Sadly, you're absolutely right about Marvel Studios showing no interest in supporting anything the Netflixverse has established. It has just been confirmed at SDCC that Mahershala Ali, who played Cottonmouth in the first season of Luke Cage, will star as Blade in the MCU reboot:

https://deadline.com/2019/07/blade-being-rebooted-by-marvel-with-mahershala-ali-1202650043/

The only actors who have played multiple roles in the MCU were bit part, supporting characters. I just don't see them reviving any of the Netflix characters in the same universe where Ali has played both a hero and a villain.

I've said this before in the Iron Fist thread, but I'll say it here too. We can complain about Daredevil's cancellation all we want, and we have every right to do so. But, if you ignore the Benjamin Poindexter post credit scene for a moment, at least we can take comfort the rest of the third season was a fitting conclusion for a series finale. In hindsight, you couldn't have asked for a better ending after such a premature cancellation. Matt Murdock certainly had closure, unlike Luke Cage or Iron Fist.

The 2019 Emmy nominations were announced last week, and as expected Daredevil was completely ignored. Not even a nomination for stunt work. Oh well.

It seems there's a reference to the Netflix show in the new Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 game. There's a stage where the characters move into a corridor and the camera shifts to a 2D side-scrolling perspective, whereupon Daredevil makes the following remark:


He sure looks like Charlie's Daredevil.


A while back I predicted we'd hear about a revival of this series on Hulu sometime late next year. Since I made that prediction, new information has been leaked that indicates this won't be possible. If the leaks and rumours are accurate, then this series is dead along with the rest of the Netflixverse. And it won't be coming back.

So what does the future hold for Daredevil? Kevin Feige confirmed that the line-up of films and TV shows announced at Comic-Con is the complete Phase 4 and not merely the first half as many people had assumed. That means Phase 4 is only going to last for two years and will consist of five films and five TV shows.


Interestingly, the third Spider-Man solo film is not present on the list. Most fans expected it to be released in July 2021, and it's still possible Sony might announce that date. But so far they haven't. So if we assume that Feige is accurate in describing the Comic-Con list as the whole of Phase 4, then that means the third Spider-Man solo movie won't be out until Phase 5, and that won't be until 2022 at the earliest.

If this is true, and assuming Sony doesn't contradict Feige's statement by announcing a 2021 release date, then I'm going to go ahead and predict that a new MCU version of Daredevil will be introduced in the third Spider-Man movie. Far From Home ended in such a way that Peter is going to need a lawyer, and who better for the job? Already fan-made images have been cropping up online to tease this.


But if Daredevil is brought into the movies, will it be the version from the Netflix show? No. I don't think so. From what I've heard, there is a slim possibility they might bring Charlie back. But even if they do, it's extremely unlikely he'll be playing the same version of Daredevil from the TV series. It's far more likely that Charlie, or whoever else may take the part, will be playing a new version of Matt.

Another rumour suggests the Netflix Daredevil might cross over into the MCU in the next Doctor Strange film, but in light of the 2021 release date I think that would be too soon after the October 2020 embargo stipulated by the Netflix contract. But a Spider-Man movie scheduled for 2022 or later would probably be viable. And then perhaps a Daredevil solo film as part of Phase 5.

Feige commented on the use of the Netflix characters earlier this month:

QuoteI don't know. There were a lot of great characters that were on those Netflix series, and I think there is a period of time...it'll be a while before we could use any of them based on what the contracts were, so I'm not sure. And also, even answering that question is a spoiler. But there are some great Marvel characters there. Who would you want to see?

https://mcuexchange.com/kevin-feige-netflix-characters-films-mcu/

The most interesting thing here is the "even answering that question is a spoiler" part. Why would it be a spoiler if they didn't have plans for at least one of these characters?

Presumably a new Daredevil would be lighter in tone in order to blend in with the MCU's PG-13 landscape. I can live with this, provided they don't go full Mark Waid and make it a retro Silver Age affair. Daredevil is a dark character, and if you try and regress him to his original sixties persona – which Waid more or less did during his run – then you lose many of the layers that make him such a deep and compelling character.

That said, they should avoid repeating anything from the Miller comics. The TV show covered all of Miller's classic stories and did a great job of it. There are plenty of other Daredevil writers they could look to for inspiration, and many more villains they could use. Supposing Marvel Studios was planning a new Daredevil movie trilogy, and they wanted to do it without repeating anything from the TV show. Could it be done?

Of course. For one thing, they could set it in San Francisco. In the comics Matt lived in San Francisco from 1972-1974, and then again from 2014-2016. I prefer it when he's in Hell's Kitchen, as that's his natural habitat. But if they really wanted to distinguish a movie from the TV show, setting it in a different city might be a way to go.

Foggy is a very important part of the mythology and should really appear in any adaptation. But again, if we assume they want to avoid reusing the character then there are alternatives. If they want a platonic friend to work with Matt, other than Foggy, they could use Willie Lincoln, Becky Blake or Sam Chung. If they want a love interest other than Karen or Elektra, there are plenty to pick from: Heather Glenn, Glorianna O'Breen, Maya Lopez, Milla Donovan, Kirsten McDuffie, etc. Echo would be a great alternative to Elektra (even though Mark Steven Johnson already used some of Echo's storyline for the 2003 movie). If they want a spiritual guide to replace Father Lantom or Maggie, they could use Father Jordan. There was more to Maggie's story than what we saw in season 3 of the TV show, so I'd really like to see that character revisited at some point. But for now, let's assume they won't reuse anyone from the TV series.

They could bring in characters like Rosalind Sharpe, Dakota North and Master Izo. Much as I like Bob Gunton's take on Owlsley, I wouldn't mind seeing a more traditional version of the Owl as a movie villain. There are also plenty of other villains they didn't use in the TV show that could show up in the films: Eric Slaughter, Bullet, Muse, Leap-Frog, Mister Fear, Matador, Masked Marauder, Jester, the Enforcers, Lady Bullseye, Tombstone, Johnny Sockets, Stilt-Man, Alexander Bont, Bushwacker, Ammo, the Wildboys, Ikari, etc. They could also utilise more comic-accurate versions of Daredevil villains that appeared in other TV shows, such as Mister Hyde, Purple Man, Nuke and Typhoid Mary.

If they were going to make a new Daredevil movie trilogy, it might be wise to move away from the gritty crime drama angle (which they already covered beautifully in the TV series) and focus on the supernatural occult side. Make the most of the bigger budget and have Daredevil work with Doctor Strange to battle foes like Mephisto, Blackheart, Death-Stalker and Hellspawn.


They could even bring in Blindspot and the Ordo Draconum. That way they could make a gothic supernatural version of Daredevil that was still faithful to the comics but avoided repeating anything from the TV show. Because let's face it, they're never going to top the TV series. So they might as well do something different.

Two things I would like them to carry over from the series are Charlie and Vincent. It doesn't matter if they're playing different versions of the characters. Just bring them back like they did with (SPOILER for Far From Home) J. K. Simmons as J. Jonah Jameson. That would go a long way to winning the support of the fans and avoiding the kind of consumer resistance The Amazing Spider-Man movies encountered.

But whatever happens, can we please have The Defenders and Daredevil season 3 on Blu-ray?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 22 Jul  2019, 14:08If they were going to make a new Daredevil movie trilogy, it might be wise to move away from the gritty crime drama angle (which they already covered beautifully in the TV series) and focus on the supernatural occult side. Make the most of the bigger budget and have Daredevil work with Doctor Strange to battle foes like Mephisto, Blackheart, Death-Stalker and Hellspawn.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cLLnFDy9/demons.png)

If things had played out differently with Defenders, I might've suggested Shadowland. Alas...

Y'know, before this Dr. Strange & The Multiverse Of Madness thing came along, I would've suggested that a Stan Lee/Karl Kesel/Mark Waid, lighter, more swashbuckling take on the character could be a good alternative to the Netflix show. But if Multiverse Of Madness really is authentic horror then maybe, just maybe, a sort of gothic supernatural horror thing might play.

As you say, the main issue should be avoiding Miller's stuff from now on. It's been done. Brilliantly, at that. So it's definitely time for a new direction.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 24 Jul  2019, 02:14Y'know, before this Dr. Strange & The Multiverse Of Madness thing came along, I would've suggested that a Stan Lee/Karl Kesel/Mark Waid, lighter, more swashbuckling take on the character could be a good alternative to the Netflix show.

They could take a Silver Age approach. And if they did, I'd have no right to complain. The lighter "happy Matt" version of the character is perfectly legitimate and harkens back to the earliest Stan Lee comics. But it would still feel regressive. Matt evolved beyond that characterisation decades ago, and nowadays fans expect something darker and more layered. The Netflix show introduced Daredevil to a wider audience of fans who don't necessarily read the comics, and I doubt they'd be enthusiastic about a reboot that ventured too far into Silver Age silliness. I wouldn't expect a movie reboot to be anywhere near as dark as the Netflix show, but nor should it stray too far in the opposite direction.

Still, I'd prefer a Silver Age Daredevil movie over an inferior rehash of stories that were already covered in the TV show.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 24 Jul  2019, 02:14If things had played out differently with Defenders, I might've suggested Shadowland. Alas...

I was watching some Daredevil gameplay footage from Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, and it turns out the level containing the hallway line is actually based on Shadowland. Here's Daredevil's introductory cutscene.


I don't know if you read Charles Soule's Mayor Fisk storyline last year, colors, but that arc basically turns into Shadowland 2 towards the end. Soule retconned the Chaste's status as the arch enemy of the Hand; instead the Hand's new arch enemy is Ordo Draconum, the Vatican's secret army of monster slayers (obviously inspired by the real life Order of the Dragon) that have been battling supernatural threats for centuries.


Towards the end of the Mayor Fisk arc the Hand invade New York (again), Daredevil gets possessed and has to undergo an exorcism (again), and the denouement sees Matt leading a squad of Ordo Draconum commandos in battle against the army of the Beast. In light of the MCU's predilection for battle-centric finales, this would make the perfect ending to a big budget Daredevil movie. It wouldn't have fit the tone of the TV show, and they wouldn't have had the budget to shoot it anyway, but it would be ideal for a film.


I liked how the Hand were portrayed in Daredevil season 2, but the depiction went downhill from Iron Fist season 1 onwards. The Netflixverse also removed the Beast from the Hand's mythology, which is a pretty big oversight. So I wouldn't mind seeing the Hand revisited on the big screen – this time featuring Snakeroot and the Beast – and that would leave the door open to storylines like Shadowland and Mayor Fisk. I liked the Mayor Fisk arc a lot more than Shadowland, but I can see how the two storylines might be merged together to form a dark middle entry in a DD movie trilogy.

Then the third movie could be loosely based on the Lone Stranger and Reborn storylines, with Matt wandering the Earth while Mephisto sends Blackheart and other demonic agents to torment him.


By the end of the movie, Matt would be back in New York and could team up with Doctor Strange to journey into Hell and confront Mephisto (Matt faced off against Mephisto in Hell during Nocenti's run, so it's not that farfetched). This would make a great cinematic spectacle for the trilogy's finale.


In the original comic Silver Surfer entered Hell to help Daredevil escape. If they've introduced the Surfer by then, he could appear in the movie as well. Otherwise Strange could take his role in the film. Or maybe all of this would be too dark for a PG-13 movie. The gothic supernatural angle isn't the only way to go, but it's definitely a direction I'd approve of and there's plenty of material in the comics to support it. In general, I like the idea of the cinematic Daredevil being closer in tone to Doctor Strange and The Winter Soldier than to the recent Spider-Man films.

Another possibility is that they could introduce Matt as a supporting character in the Black Widow movies. I don't know if the upcoming BW solo film is meant to be a standalone picture or the beginning of a trilogy. If there are sequels, they might throw Matt in as a love interest. Those two characters have a long history in the comics and even shared a title for a while during the seventies. In terms of how they might introduce Matt into Natasha's world, I'm thinking of that story by Mike W. Barr and Frank Miller from What If? Vol 1 #28 (August 1981), where instead of becoming a vigilante Matt became an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. whose codename was Daredevil.


I really hope they don't do this, as I'd hate to see Matt play second fiddle to Natasha, but it's another possible way to go.

So that gives us four possible directions a big screen Daredevil might take:

1.   Light-hearted Silver Age adventure, influenced by Waid's run and possibly connected with the Spider-Man films (this could work, but wouldn't be ideal)


2.   Dark gritty crime drama influenced by Miller's run; basically a big budget PG-13 retread of the TV show (this would be a disaster)


3.   Spooky fantasy saga featuring powerful nonhuman threats and tying in with the supernatural side of the MCU (this could be great if executed properly)


4.   Espionage thriller where DD is a sidekick/love interest to Black Widow (this would also be a disaster)


A fifth option might simply be to have fantasy crime stories akin to the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies. As long as they upped the scope of the action and avoided making it too dark (and avoided retreading Miller's stories) it might just work.

Season 1 showrunner Steven DeKnight bought the Daredevil suit from the auction:

Quote
For those of you who don't know, they're auctioning off props from the Marvel Netflix shows today. And I'm happy to report that this bad boy is coming home to live at the offices of DeKnight Productions, where it belongs!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EByv7zmUwAA9wmp.jpg)

https://twitter.com/stevendeknight/status/1160996249849487360

Some fanboy, however, had this rather unflattering thing to say about the costume.

Quote
No that terrible reptilian fibreglass polymer travesty belongs in a dumpster fire or a Joel Schumacher film. This is what Daredevil looks like.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBy96CHXsAAlUwN.jpg)

https://twitter.com/AikidoMarcoFord/status/1161011612150620161

DeKnight gave a simple answer that got over 1,100 likes:

Quote
f*** off.

https://twitter.com/stevendeknight/status/1161013205243580417

Haha. My only little gripe with the Netflix costume is the neck is the polyester under the jaw is a little loose. Otherwise, I really like the costume.

Besides, anybody who claims the costume belongs in a Joel Schumacher Batman movie has no credibility whatsoever.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 13 Aug  2019, 15:01Besides, anybody who claims the costume belongs in a Joel Schumacher Batman movie has no credibility whatsoever.

This. If anything, I always thought that version of Daredevil's uniform would look mostly right at home in a Zack Snyder film.

And coming from me, that's high praise indeed.

https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/charlie-cox-good-confirmed-return-daredevil-mcu-movies/

Please let this pan out.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 28 Oct  2019, 05:53
https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/charlie-cox-good-confirmed-return-daredevil-mcu-movies/

Please let this pan out.

As you know, I?m a bit of a critic of the MCU. But I?m willing to forgive and overlook a lot of things if Cox comes back to play the character again.

Most ideally, he?ll continue what he started in the Netflixverse.

I meant to post this vid back in October, but I forgot. It's one of Corridor Crew's Stuntmen React videos, and this time the guest is Eric Linden, who, amongst other things, worked on the Marvel Netflix shows. He talks about the one-shot fight scenes from Daredevil seasons 1 and 2 at the 7:19 mark and has some high praise for Charlie Cox's martial arts/screen fighting skills.


In recent months there have been numerous rumours about Daredevil getting resurrected in one form or another, but no concrete announcements yet. The Netflix embargo should finally run out later this year, which means an official announcement should arrive before Christmas.

I thought the season 1 fight was intended to look like a oner but it had cuts to it. Interesting to learn that, no, it was an in fact a legit oner.

Honestly, the oner thing is fine. But the real draw of those fights is the visceral choreography and vision of the performers and the stunt coordinator. I don't need those things to be true oners in order to adore them. Oner or not, they're technically amazing on every possible level.

The Netflix thing. Honestly, I'm of two minds about all this. Part of me actually prefers the Netflixverse being it's own unique thing. But another part of me still wants to at least see Cox get legitimized as THE Daredevil of the MCU. So hmm.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 13 Jan  2020, 01:05
The Netflix thing. Honestly, I'm of two minds about all this. Part of me actually prefers the Netflixverse being it's own unique thing. But another part of me still wants to at least see Cox get legitimized as THE Daredevil of the MCU. So hmm.

I honestly prefer Cox's Daredevil to stay the hell away from the MCU. I never thought I'd say that. But looking at how the characters have gotten dumbed down or turned into obnoxious comic relief (or both) over the last few years, I'd hate to think how drastically toned down Cox would be to satisfy that quippy PG-13 formula.

Be careful what you wish for.

It's not from the Bat In The Sun YouTube channel, but here is this pretty cool fight between Daredevil and Nightwing.

https://youtu.be/VOYloEFEEvs

Happy 5th anniversary!

Bizarrely, Deborah Ann Woll has not landed any acting jobs since Daredevil season 3. I say 'bizarrely' because she was amazing in this show. She and Joanne Whalley both deserved some award recognition for their work on season 3, if only the major awards hadn't been so determined to ignore DD.

According to Woll:

Quote"I'm just really wondering whether I'll get to work again, whether anyone wants to work with me again, and whether I still have it, all of those scary things. And part of my brain goes, 'No, you're just being crazy, calm down.' But the part of me that loves [acting] and the problem with being an artist and an actor, and any of these professions where you put a piece of your soul into your work is that it becomes a part of your identity.

"If I'm not acting, I'm not sure who I am. And since it's been so long since I got to do it, I'm struggling a little bit with how to maintain my self-worth, my sense of my own value. . . . I haven't had an acting job since, and that's been really hard for me. So even before COVID kind of flipped the world on its head, I was struggling with this."

https://bleedingcool.com/tv/deborah-ann-woll-reveals-career-woes-post-daredevil-co-stars-respond/

Some of her co-stars have tweeted their support.


Her scene with D'Onofrio was one of the most intense moments in season 3. And that was largely down to Woll's performance.


It boggles my mind that she isn't getting more acting work. Hopefully Marvel will bring Deb back along with Charlie when they announce whatever they have in store for Daredevil. But even outside of her role as Karen, she should be getting more work.

So can you buy this show on Blu-ray? I'm kinda nervous once it leaves Netflix, there will be no way of watching it.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 14 Apr  2020, 16:33
Bizarrely, Deborah Ann Woll has not landed any acting jobs since Daredevil season 3. I say 'bizarrely' because she was amazing in this show. She and Joanne Whalley both deserved some award recognition for their work on season 3, if only the major awards hadn't been so determined to ignore DD.

According to Woll:

Quote"I'm just really wondering whether I'll get to work again, whether anyone wants to work with me again, and whether I still have it, all of those scary things. And part of my brain goes, 'No, you're just being crazy, calm down.' But the part of me that loves [acting] and the problem with being an artist and an actor, and any of these professions where you put a piece of your soul into your work is that it becomes a part of your identity.

"If I'm not acting, I'm not sure who I am. And since it's been so long since I got to do it, I'm struggling a little bit with how to maintain my self-worth, my sense of my own value. . . . I haven't had an acting job since, and that's been really hard for me. So even before COVID kind of flipped the world on its head, I was struggling with this."

https://bleedingcool.com/tv/deborah-ann-woll-reveals-career-woes-post-daredevil-co-stars-respond/

Some of her co-stars have tweeted their support.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FKSYG5TD/woll1.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ryjKf99X/woll2.png)

Her scene with D'Onofrio was one of the most intense moments in season 3. And that was largely down to Woll's performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lewj-OX7CEk

It boggles my mind that she isn't getting more acting work. Hopefully Marvel will bring Deb back along with Charlie when they announce whatever they have in store for Daredevil. But even outside of her role as Karen, she should be getting more work.

That is weird. None of the cast members involved with Daredevil have anything to be ashamed of. They all did first rate work, and often under some pretty grueling conditions. You'd think there would be some kind of demand for all of them for other projects. Bizarre.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue, 14 Apr  2020, 16:59
So can you buy this show on Blu-ray? I'm kinda nervous once it leaves Netflix, there will be no way of watching it.

Unfortunately they've only released seasons 1 and 2 on Blu-ray. We're still waiting for The Defenders and Daredevil season 3. When it comes to their Marvel content, Netflix threw in the towel around 2017. After that, they put minimal effort in to promoting these shows and stopped releasing them on DVD/Blu-ray. I don't care about the Blu-rays of the other Marvel shows, but I want DDs3 and The Defenders for my Daredevil collection.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 14 Apr  2020, 17:10That is weird. None of the cast members involved with Daredevil have anything to be ashamed of. They all did first rate work, and often under some pretty grueling conditions. You'd think there would be some kind of demand for all of them for other projects. Bizarre.

It is really weird, but the legacy of season 3 has ended up being the opposite of what it should have been. The series should have been immediately renewed for a fourth season, garnered a ton of awards, and advanced the careers of everyone involved. Instead it got cancelled, was snubbed by every major award body, and has apparently stunted the career of at least one of its most talented contributors. Good work should be rewarded, not punished.

Only Bizarro could make sense of this.

This might explain why a lot of the cast members didn't get much acting work recently.

Source: https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/daredevil-charlie-cox-netflix-cancellation/

Quote from: Charlie Cox
I mean, we all thought we were going [to work on Season 4]. You know, I turned down jobs, 'cause I thought we were shooting and we were getting ready for it.

I had a brief conversation with [producers] Erik [Oleson] and Jeph [Loeb] about what was planned and that kind of sucks, 'cause I was really excited, you know, as we all were. It was a real shock. I don't know who's to blame, just, you know, because sometimes, politics, stuff happens, I probably don't to this day know what was going on behind the scenes.

It never drops because they did three seasons and they called it a day, which takes a lot of, I don't know, courage, talent, I don't know how that happens, because, you know, when something's really good there's always a hunger for it. But, I like to think that we ended on a massive high. Some people, some friends of mine who are fans of the show, described season three as our best. And, you know, I'll take that. I'd rather it be remembered as this great moment in time, that really kind of changed television, and you know, didn't descend into kind of ridiculousness.

You can definitely see Cox's commitment every time he plays Matt Murdock, both in terms of acting and stunts. He definitely saw the role as his biggest priority. I bet the other actors felt the same starring in Daredevil, so it's such a shame their commitment has gotten them less work - and out of work in some cases - because nobody warned them about the show's fate.

Still, Charlie did do some Broadway work together with Tom Hiddelston, aka Loki, and some fans came out in full support.

Quote from: Charlie Cox
We always had a joke about how many "Save Daredevil" T-shirts that would be in the audience each night. And, they'd often, these guys would come, and they'd often pick out the first two rows, and the curtain would go up. But, as the curtain would go up and I'd see a row of these red T-shirts, that say "Save Daredevil."

I have to speak in the first scene, I have the first lines. So, I see these people come, these shirts appearing, and I'd suddenly be like, like trying not to laugh, 'cause it meant the world to me, and I know it means the world to everyone involved in that show.

I agree with Cox that I'd rather the show go out on a high as it did. I wish Netflix did a fourth season, but I really do think the boardroom politics with Disney and their plans in unleashing their own streaming service at the time threw a spanner in the works. It's a shame, but I'd rather have Cox's tenure ending as it ended instead of watching him devolve into a shadow of his former self if Disney+ got a hold of him. Let another actor carry the burden starring as a Disneyfied Daredevil.

In the meantime, Cox is making himself quite comfortable at home while he watches the first season.  8)

(https://i.imgur.com/u3TVmg7.jpg)

Source: https://screenrant.com/netflix-daredevil-charlie-cox-wears-mask-rewatch/

Originally, I lamented the loss of the Netflixverse in general and, more specifically, Charlie Cox as Daredevil. But in a show of total hypocrisy...

Unpopular opinion: I am now glad things ended. Yes, there was plenty of room to tell more stories. There's no denying that. But I look at goings on with other TV shows, especially the Arrowverse. And I can't help thinking the Arrowverse might be better regarded today if it had sunsetted a year or two ago. Yes, a lot of ambitious Arrowverse stories wouldn't exist. But a lot of Arrowverse cast members are completely disengaged from their characters these days. Either they're running out their contracts or else they're laughing all the way to the bank.

I would hate, hate, FREAKING HATE if things had ever devolved to that point with the Netflixverse. There's a lot to be said sometimes for getting out early. And right now, the Netflixverse may not be perfect but NOBODY can say it sucks. You have to respect what they achieved with a wide variety of mostly B-list characters. Three more seasons of Netflixverse shows and we might not be able to adopt such a rosy view of things.

I'm not happy that this happened. Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying I see some upsides.

There's a casting call out for an actress to appear in a Disney+ series that's scheduled to begin filming in the autumn.


Malia, deaf, athletic, Native American, needs to know sign language – it's got to be Maya Lopez/Echo, right? What other Marvel character comes close to that description? If this is for a Daredevil series, and they're looking for characters and storylines that weren't referenced in the Netflix show, then Echo would be an excellent place to start.

I just hope they're not shoehorning her into a non-Daredevil show (e.g. the new Hawkeye series) for the sake of diversity. I'd love to see Echo appear in a live action production, but I want her to appear with Daredevil. Marvel already wasted too many DD characters on other TV shows, none of which lived up to their potential. Hopefully that's not what's happening here.

Perhaps they could produce a new Defenders series, with Cox's Daredevil leading a team of young superheroes that includes Echo, Blindspot and White Tiger. That would tick all their diversity boxes while reintroducing Daredevil in a lighter, bigger budget show that would be more suitable for the MCU's target demographics. Just an idea.

I also think the time is ripe for Stilt-Man to make his live action debut. He wouldn't have worked with the dark, grounded atmosphere of the Netflix series, but considering the cool revamp he's recently undergone during Chip Zdarsky's DD run, I think he might work in a big budget Disney+ show.

Things being what they are, I imagine that it's for a project disconnected from Daredevil.

PROVE ME WRONG, DISNEY+!

One of my fan wishlists would be an episode-by-episode adaptation of the entire Bendis run. Nothing fancy, no Hollywood "creative adapting" (which Marvel is fast becoming infamous for) or any of that stuff. Just put the Bendis run as is onscreen. Throw in Echo too. (A) #DiversityIsOurStrength or something and (B) she really is an awesome character so hell yeah. White Tiger II, same thing.

It'll never happen but I can dream.

Corridor Crew looked at another Daredevil sequence in their latest Stuntmen React video. This time their guest is Gui DaSilva, whose impressive filmography includes performing Black Panther's stunts in the MCU and doubling for Rob Morgan in Daredevil. The DD discussion begins at the 4:37 mark.


It sounds like they might be getting Cox himself for a future episode. If they do, I'd love to hear his commentary on the prison fight in season 3.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 19 Jun  2020, 15:30One of my fan wishlists would be an episode-by-episode adaptation of the entire Bendis run. Nothing fancy, no Hollywood "creative adapting" (which Marvel is fast becoming infamous for) or any of that stuff. Just put the Bendis run as is onscreen. Throw in Echo too. (A) #DiversityIsOurStrength or something and (B) she really is an awesome character so hell yeah. White Tiger II, same thing.

It'll never happen but I can dream.

That's what should have happened. They covered Miller comprehensively in seasons 1-3. Bendis' run would have been the logical next step, allowing the characters and storyline to move in a fresh direction while maintaining tonal consistency with what came before. Alex Maleev's work influenced the look of the series, probably more than any other artist, and they already adapted aspects of Bendis' The Murdock Papers in season 3. I was hoping they'd delve even deeper into his work and eventually adapt the Out storyline. It would have been too early to do that in the first three seasons, but they could have done it from season 4 onwards.

Peter Shinkoda, who played Nobu, has made some very startling accusations against Jeph Loeb for cutting out his character's story arc.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/daredevil-show-jeph-loeb-racism-accusation-peter-shinkoda/amp/

You can watch his remarks around the 9:38 minute mark here.

https://youtu.be/HqtYmvTEz4c

Without getting into the subject that Shinkoda has addressed, I think it's too bad Nobu's arc got removed. I consider the second season the weakest of all three seasons: great for the first three or so episodes when the focus was on Punisher, but very so-so when it came to Elektra, Nobu and the Hand. Had they kept that original storyline for Nobu, maybe Season 2 would've been much better.

I've been wondering about this. And whether or not Shinkoda's accusations are true (I'll circle back to that in a minute), there are complications relating to Loeb that seem to go back to Day One of the Netflixverse. One obvious thing is that the MCU films have not really acknowledged the Netflix world. Why?

Well, it could very well be that there is/was some sort of conflict between Feige and Loeb. Feige was the undisputed leader of the MCU, everything he touched turned to gold and (right or wrong) he saw Loeb as an interloper or possible rival. Hollywood is full of back-stabbing weasels, as Geoff Johns amply demonstrates. Trusting the wrong person is a great way to get shivved in the back in that town. So all of this could've been a straight forward matter of Feige satisfying his own ego by not giving Loeb's work a bigger platform. It could be as simple as that.

But I've wondered if there wasn't something else going on.

It's pretty clear that Disney went into Damage Control Mode at some point, as might be expected if their crown jewel (Marvel) is experiencing internal problems. It might be that Feige didn't have the mojo to quash Loeb even tho Loeb richly deserves it, for this and for other problems he's had with other people. There are quite a lot of rumors out there about Loeb getting crosswise with somebody or another. Dude's made a lot of enemies over the years. His friends are unflinchingly loyal but I get the idea sometimes that his enemies wouldn't mind seeing him dead. Seriously, they seem to hate the guy that much.

Where does that kind of hatred come from?

To go back to Shinkoda's accusations of racism tho... look, normally I hate it when people claim this or that was racist. But what Shinkoda says seems to add up. The story additions he refers to would've improved that season. The business with Weaver was also weird. I got the impression that Gao was the leader of The Hand too so when Weaver made her big debut, it was a bit confusing. Rather than Gao being the undisputed leader, The Hand was governed by a "council". I'm willing to roll with that concept for a show but the comics have indicated that The Hand usually has a singular leader. This ain't no democracy. Or a republic. Or a committee.

The common element here is the racial element with those characters.

The theory doesn't completely add up. Colleen was a central figure in Iron Fist. Indeed, she's absolutely crucial to the final season. I might even say that season was too dependent upon her. So what's the deal? Does Loeb hate Japanese people but adore Chinese people? Does that make sense to ANYBODY?

But then, that season of Iron Fist could've been broken after Loeb had been taken out behind the wood shed. Loeb could've had virtually no say on how things played out. Indeed, that would explain a lot about that season. But who can say?

But from a 50,000 foot view, the racial thing puts goings on with the Netflixverse into a different context. Why would Feige, Marvel Studios and Disney want to "reward" Loeb by incorporating his ideas (and Loeb himself, by proxy if nothing else) into their work and risk the viability of the whole enterprise if Loeb's racial thing (A) comes to public attention and (B) can be proven as true?

In those circumstances, putting the kibosh on the entire Netflixverse and making it up to the rest of the cast and crew some other way might truly seem like the lesser evil under the circumstances. Because let's face it, nobody wants to reward or associate with someone who punishes other people because of their race. Yes yes yes, Hollyweird, things like that happen all the time. But that doesn't mean you just let it slide when you find out about it.

Sad state of affairs.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 26 Jul  2020, 22:51
I've been wondering about this. And whether or not Shinkoda's accusations are true (I'll circle back to that in a minute), there are complications relating to Loeb that seem to go back to Day One of the Netflixverse. One obvious thing is that the MCU films have not really acknowledged the Netflix world. Why?

Well, it could very well be that there is/was some sort of conflict between Feige and Loeb. Feige was the undisputed leader of the MCU, everything he touched turned to gold and (right or wrong) he saw Loeb as an interloper or possible rival. Hollywood is full of back-stabbing weasels, as Geoff Johns amply demonstrates. Trusting the wrong person is a great way to get shivved in the back in that town. So all of this could've been a straight forward matter of Feige satisfying his own ego by not giving Loeb's work a bigger platform. It could be as simple as that.

But I've wondered if there wasn't something else going on.

It's pretty clear that Disney went into Damage Control Mode at some point, as might be expected if their crown jewel (Marvel) is experiencing internal problems. It might be that Feige didn't have the mojo to quash Loeb even tho Loeb richly deserves it, for this and for other problems he's had with other people. There are quite a lot of rumors out there about Loeb getting crosswise with somebody or another. Dude's made a lot of enemies over the years. His friends are unflinchingly loyal but I get the idea sometimes that his enemies wouldn't mind seeing him dead. Seriously, they seem to hate the guy that much.

Where does that kind of hatred come from?

To go back to Shinkoda's accusations of racism tho... look, normally I hate it when people claim this or that was racist. But what Shinkoda says seems to add up. The story additions he refers to would've improved that season. The business with Weaver was also weird. I got the impression that Gao was the leader of The Hand too so when Weaver made her big debut, it was a bit confusing. Rather than Gao being the undisputed leader, The Hand was governed by a "council". I'm willing to roll with that concept for a show but the comics have indicated that The Hand usually has a singular leader. This ain't no democracy. Or a republic. Or a committee.

The common element here is the racial element with those characters.

The theory doesn't completely add up. Colleen was a central figure in Iron Fist. Indeed, she's absolutely crucial to the final season. I might even say that season was too dependent upon her. So what's the deal? Does Loeb hate Japanese people but adore Chinese people? Does that make sense to ANYBODY?

But then, that season of Iron Fist could've been broken after Loeb had been taken out behind the wood shed. Loeb could've had virtually no say on how things played out. Indeed, that would explain a lot about that season. But who can say?

But from a 50,000 foot view, the racial thing puts goings on with the Netflixverse into a different context. Why would Feige, Marvel Studios and Disney want to "reward" Loeb by incorporating his ideas (and Loeb himself, by proxy if nothing else) into their work and risk the viability of the whole enterprise if Loeb's racial thing (A) comes to public attention and (B) can be proven as true?

In those circumstances, putting the kibosh on the entire Netflixverse and making it up to the rest of the cast and crew some other way might truly seem like the lesser evil under the circumstances. Because let's face it, nobody wants to reward or associate with someone who punishes other people because of their race. Yes yes yes, Hollyweird, things like that happen all the time. But that doesn't mean you just let it slide when you find out about it.

Sad state of affairs.

From what you're saying, Jeph Loeb is yet another talented comic book writer but a traitorous individual, who will stop at nothing to satisfy his own lofty ambitions as a producer of live action comic book properties.

It annoys me that Daredevil's second season may have been compromised because of his own alleged bigotry. And by extension, it must've had an effect on how Defenders turned out, which I thought was probably the worst out of all the Marvel Netflix shows. Sigourney Weaver was shoehorned into that show, and frankly, the Hand sub-plot across both shows should've been much better. Maybe Loeb pressured the writers to copy the shadowy crime boss template onto Weaver's character and the Hand served as some sort of mystical underworld? Problem is A) she was no D'Onofrio, and B) the Hand should've been far more impressive than we got, in my opinion. I reckon Nobu in the first season was as good as we ever got as far as anything Hand-related is concerned.

Thankfully, Daredevil still turned out brilliantly the way it did. I thought Nobu was an underwhelming follow-up Fisk as the main villain, but now I know it wasn't the writers' fault.

Shinkoda tweeted this yesterday.

Quote
#WaiChingHo aka #MadameGao and I, aka #Nobu of #Daredevil weren't at the season 2 premiere...because we weren't invited. Wai was insulted...and that pissed me off A LOT. We found out about the event as it live-streamed. "They" were sorry we were "overlooked". #HellsKitchen

https://twitter.com/PeterShinkoda/status/1287490338958041088

This is pretty damning. There's no excuse why Shinkoda and Wai would be overlooked for an invitation, we're talking about actors playing recurring roles here.

Rayborg publicly showed his support.

Quote from: Ray Fisher
Our industry will not advance unless we are willing to speak the names of those preventing it from doing so!

Thank you for standing up and speaking out
@PeterShinkoda

I stand with you.

Quote from: Peter Shinkoda
Big fan here. Loved your very nuanced performance in #JusticeLeague - definitely my favorite character!!! I sincerely appreciate your support Ray. You have my lifelong allyship. I bow deeply to you

Quote from: Ray Fisher
And I to you. You are an inspiration.

Accountability>Entertainment

https://twitter.com/ray8fisher/status/1287473864113520644

I really feel bad for Wai Ching Ho. Roles in big Hollywood productions are hard to come by no matter what but even more at her age. Gao is probably the biggest thing she'd ever done in the western world and I thought she did a great job. And to then get skipped over for the premiere... man, that's LOW.

And don't kid yourself, a LOT of networking goes on at premieres. There's a very strong argument that Wai and Shinkoda both could've missed out on new opportunities from being ignored.

But good on Fisher for joining in. One voice can be ignored. But how many voices does it take to create a chorus?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 26 Jul  2020, 22:51To go back to Shinkoda's accusations of racism tho... look, normally I hate it when people claim this or that was racist. But what Shinkoda says seems to add up. The story additions he refers to would've improved that season. The business with Weaver was also weird. I got the impression that Gao was the leader of The Hand too so when Weaver made her big debut, it was a bit confusing. Rather than Gao being the undisputed leader, The Hand was governed by a "council". I'm willing to roll with that concept for a show but the comics have indicated that The Hand usually has a singular leader. This ain't no democracy. Or a republic. Or a committee.

I've seen numerous comments on recent news articles criticising the Netflix version of the Hand for being underwritten or two dimensional. Thing is, that's exactly what they're like in the comics. The Hand have never been portrayed as having rich private lives, complex relationships or compelling back stories like most other super villains. They're not meant to be sympathetic or particularly layered. Miller wrote them as taciturn undead devil-worshipping zombie ninjas, and as far as I'm concerned they nailed this in Daredevil season 2.

DDs2 portrayed them as a clan of undead ninjas originating in Feudal Japan, just like in the comics. They were reanimated corpses who dressed in comic-accurate red and black outfits, manoeuvred around New York using underground tunnels, and wielded poisoned blades, just like in the comics. They were at war with the Chaste, tried recruiting Elektra as a host for their demonic idol, and could mask their presence from Daredevil's senses, just like in the comics. They performed blood rites that involved slitting their own wrists, stole Elektra's corpse to resurrect her, and purchased real estate in Hell's Kitchen in order to build themselves a new base, just like in the comics. Their upper ranks included Kagenobu Yoshioka and Lord Hiroshi, both of whom are characters from the comics. I could go on, but I think I've already overstated this point – the depiction of the Hand in DDs2 was spot on with the source material.

Iron Fist season 1 is where things went sour. That's where they began deviating from the comics, and in doing so not only ruined the Hand but also derailed the entire Netflix project. Suddenly the Hand was no longer a clan of medieval Japanese ninjas, but an international organisation of which the Japanese branch was only a small division. Suddenly the comic-accurate origin story told by Stick in DDs2 was retconned so that their new origins connected them with K'un-Lun. Suddenly Madame Gao and her Steel Serpent dealers, who had always been depicted as separate from the Hand in DDs1 and 2, were now merely an extension of its multifaceted organisation. Suddenly the Chaste were unceremoniously removed from the equation. Suddenly the Hand's agents no longer wore their classic red and black costumes, were no longer reanimated corpses, and most of them weren't even Japanese. They became generic gun-toting terrorists, many of whom were recruited from the streets of New York like the Foot Clan in TMNT 1990. Suddenly the conjuring of Black Sky was no longer their main objective, as had been implied in DDs1 and 2, but merely a stepping stone towards their real master plan – exhuming dragon bones...

None of these developments were faithful to the source material, and they all undermined the gothic occult vibe that was so eerily evoked in DDs2. I get that a lot of people – especially those not familiar with the comics – were confused by the Hand in DDs2. But in the writers' defence, I think that confusion was intentionally cultivated to serve a purpose. I hate to use the term 'magic box' (ugh), but the elliptical nature of the Hand's storyline in DDs2 was deliberately esoteric in order to establish a sense of mystery that would reel audiences in for The Defenders. If they'd successfully followed through on this in The Defenders, then I think the lack of clarity in the second half of DDs2 would have been justified. Unfortunately they screwed up the payoff, which for many people retroactively invalidated the setup.

Incidentally, the dragon bones storyline was not what they had in mind when they wrote the first two seasons of Daredevil. Back then they didn't know exactly what the storyline of The Defenders would be, but it certainly wasn't about dragons. The Japanese writing on the Midland Circle map in DDs1 reads 'Black Sky', implying that the pit the Hand was digging was intended to be connected to the summoning of Black Sky. What most fans were expecting was a Shadowland-style scenario where the evil spirit of Black Sky would be conjured from the depths of the pit to possess Elektra and cast its evil influence over New York, similar to Gozer's arrival at the end of Ghostbusters (1984). DDs2 was a perfect setup for something like this, and if they'd done that then I reckon fans would have been satisfied. Instead we got dragon bones.

But again, I blame Iron Fist for this rather than DDs2. Speaking as a comic fan, I adore DDs2. It is the weakest season, and yet it's the one that most accurately reflects the visual identity of the comics and is still superior to 99.9% of other comic book adaptations, including most of the Batman films (yeah, I said it). It's a solid 8.5/10 for me. One of my favourite sequences in the entire series is where Daredevil's tracking the Hand through the tunnels beneath New York. There's practically no dialogue. Instead the direction, editing, music, cinematography and fight choreography tell the story. It's like a Miller/Janson comic brought to life. Beautiful.


I've got a comics-to-screen analysis of The Defenders that I finished back in 2018. I might try and post it in the next week or so if anyone's interested.

As for Weaver, she should have played Rosalind Sharpe. That would have been a meatier role for her to sink her teeth into and would have allowed her to return in the Daredevil solo series. She's pretty much identical to the Rosalind in the comics anyway, so this seems like a no-brainer.


I'd have made it so Sharpe was the lawyer representing the Hand's real estate interests, but was only partly privy to their true agenda. I'd have ignored the twist about her being Foggy's birth mother, as I don't think that would work very well in the context of the TV series. This way Sharpe could have been the public face of the Hand throughout most of The Defenders before eventually turning against them when she realises the full scope of their evil intent. Elektra could still have killed her, or alternatively they could have had her survive to return as a disgraced lawyer in DDs3 or Jessica Jones s2. I've always been a fan of Weaver and I was thrilled to have her involved in The Defenders. I think she did a great job with what she was given, but they could have made better use of her.

Apropos of the racial thing, I persuaded my Japanese sister-in-law to watch Daredevil when it first came out, and when I asked her and my brother how accurate the Japanese dialogue was they said that most of the Japanese-speaking roles were not played by Japanese actors, but Koreans. I'm not sure how they could tell. Maybe the accents. But apparently Marvel didn't actually use many real Japanese actors. I'm not saying this is due to racism or anything; just making a semi-relevant and not particularly interesting observation.

While I've heard bad things about Loeb in the past, I find it very hard to believe he'd say something as blunt as "nobody cares about Asian people". I'll wait to hear his side of the story before passing judgement, but I suspect there's been an error in communication between Shinkoda and whichever member of the writing staff related this story to him. At least I hope there has.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 28 Jul  2020, 12:52
I really feel bad for Wai Ching Ho. Roles in big Hollywood productions are hard to come by no matter what but even more at her age. Gao is probably the biggest thing she'd ever done in the western world and I thought she did a great job. And to then get skipped over for the premiere... man, that's LOW.

And don't kid yourself, a LOT of networking goes on at premieres. There's a very strong argument that Wai and Shinkoda both could've missed out on new opportunities from being ignored.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and suggest that perhaps Wai Ching Ho and Peter Shinkoda weren't invited to the season 2 premiere for the same reason Vincent D'Onofrio wasn't – because their characters' return in the second half of the season was meant to be a surprise. Just a thought.

Shinkoda's comments came to light during the recent SaveDaredevilCon. I haven't had a chance to watch all of the videos yet (I will do), but here they are:


I'd also just like to point out that there are only about another three months to go before that damnable Netflix contract finally expires and Marvel can announce their plans for Daredevil. ;D

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 28 Jul  2020, 14:52Apropos of the racial thing, I persuaded my Japanese sister-in-law to watch Daredevil when it first came out, and when I asked her and my brother how accurate the Japanese dialogue was they said that most of the Japanese-speaking roles were not played by Japanese actors, but Koreans. I'm not sure how they could tell. Maybe the accents. But apparently Marvel didn't actually use many real Japanese actors. I'm not saying this is due to racism or anything; just making a semi-relevant and not particularly interesting observation.

I'm pretty sure I know how but explaining that is cancellation waiting to happen.

Suffice it to say, people from that continent (nationals or not) are very good at recognizing who's who. There's truly no politically correct elaboration I can offer for that, unfortunately.

I think I spotted a Daredevil comic reference in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode 'Bad Girls'. There's a scene where Buffy and Faith are handcuffed and placed in the back of a police car. They escape by kicking the grating in front of their seat and causing the vehicle to crash, knocking out the two cops in the process. This is exactly how Matt escapes from the back of a police car in The Man Without Fear.


Coincidence? Well this particular episode was written by Doug Petrie, who was also a writer on Daredevil seasons 1 and 2 as well as The Defenders. He was also showrunner on DDs2 and The Defenders. DDs1 was largely based on The Man Without Fear, and the scene where Matt escapes from the police after being handcuffed was loosely adapted in the episode 'Condemned', only there the scene took place in a street instead of inside a car.


Petrie didn't write the script for 'Condemned', but he did write the following episode, 'Stick', which also adapted elements from The Man Without Fear. Anyway, I just thought it was a cool Buffy-Daredevil connection worth mentioning.

On an unrelated note, here's a nice fan poster by an artist named John Black.

I found another rumour about Charlie Cox returning in a Daredevil revival on Hulu, with the intention of integrating him with some MCU characters such as Nick Fury.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/boundingintocomics.com/2020/08/21/rumor-marvel-studios-wants-charlie-cox-to-return-as-daredevil-hints-at-planned-future-for-the-man-without-fear/amp/

But there is one possible condition, and it's off-putting:

QuoteWhile Kevin Feige liked the original series, he's not so keen on continuing what Netflix did and instead incorporate his own vision.

If that were to ever happen then count me out. Daredevil should pick up and continue where it left off and have Poindexter return as a fully fledged Bullseye, as it was hinting in the final scene of the third season. I'm not interested in Feige taking any creative control and watering it down to suit the typical MCU formula.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 24 Aug  2020, 15:52
I found another rumour about Charlie Cox returning in a Daredevil revival on Hulu, with the intention of integrating him with some MCU characters such as Nick Fury.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/boundingintocomics.com/2020/08/21/rumor-marvel-studios-wants-charlie-cox-to-return-as-daredevil-hints-at-planned-future-for-the-man-without-fear/amp/

But there is one possible condition, and it's off-putting:

QuoteWhile Kevin Feige liked the original series, he's not so keen on continuing what Netflix did and instead incorporate his own vision.

If that were to ever happen then count me out. Daredevil should pick up and continue where it left off and have Poindexter return as a fully fledged Bullseye, as it was hinting in the final scene of the third season. I'm not interested in Feige taking any creative control and watering it down to suit the typical MCU formula.

I guess two months to go until the contract expires?

It might not be possible to integrate the full Netflixverse into the MCU. I'm no expert but there could be legal barriers preventing it. They can bring Cox back, perhaps, as the MCU Daredevil but he might necessarily HAVE be different from the Netflix Daredevil.

As you know, I have no particular investment in the MCU. But there are simply too many rumors about at least Cox coming back that I have to think there's a real intention for Marvel/Feige to woo him back to the role if possible.

As before, my problem here is that I don't really see what's left for that take on the character. The Miller thing has been done pretty well. Personally, I don't need to watch yet another rehash of it. I suppose there's always the chance of going in a more Lee/Everett direction. That approach might even be best overall for incorporating Daredevil into the MCU. But is that sustainable over the long haul? Maybe. But maybe not.

Either way, it's a fresh angle for the character in live action. So that has certain obvious advantages. But the question remains as to whether Cox is interested not only in something unrelated to his previous work but specifically something so far removed from his work.

If I'm Cox and somebody says they want to bring me back in a Not Really kind of way, I might not be interested in participating.

Introducing Batdevil.


Billionaire attorney Bruce Murdock was blinded by a radioactive silver spoon that fell into his crib when he was an infant. Following the deaths of his parents, he was raised under the auspices of faithful retainer Foggy Pennyworth and a kindly nun named Maggie Thompkins. As the Devil of Crime Alley, he joins forces with chain-smoking Commissioner Jim Urich and porn star-turned-vigilante Karen Kyle to battle a succession of evil villains that includes Wilson Thorne, the Assassin's Hand, led by Elektra al Ghul, and the dreaded Deadeye (aka Bullshot).

Here's Charlie as Batman.


And here's Battinson as Daredevil.


If DC and Marvel ever produce another Amalgam series, they should do something like this instead of Dark Claw. Matt's radar sense would be a more logical fit for the bat-motif than Wolverine's claws.

Less than a month to go until the two-year anniversary of season 3, which is when the Netflix contract is supposed to expire. Hopefully it won't be too much longer before we hear something concrete about Marvel's plans for DD.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 25 Sep  2020, 16:18
Less than a month to go until the two-year anniversary of season 3, which is when the Netflix contract is supposed to expire. Hopefully it won't be too much longer before we hear something concrete about Marvel's plans for DD.

Considering the nature of the rumors making the rounds, there's good reason to doubt that even Marvel knows what their own plans are. Contract or no, this whole thing looks pretty complicated.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 15 Apr  2017, 12:55
It's interesting to note certain changes that have occurred in the Daredevil comics since the TV series started. For one thing, Matt is looking more and more like Charlie Cox. Recent artists are generally depicting him with darker hair and stubble on his chin.

(https://s2.postimg.cc/pg92qy6h5/matt_charlie_zps4faatkm0.png)

Marvel changes the height and weight stats for their heroes from time to time. Until recently, Daredevil was meant to be 6'0 and 200lbs. Now he's 5'11 and 185lbs, which is almost exactly the same as Cox's stats.

Matt's secret identity has been restored and he's relocated back to New York. He's also about to become a member of the Defenders, like his MCU counterpart.

The 'world on fire' visualisation of Matt's radar sense has appeared in some of the more recent comics.

(https://s2.postimg.cc/puaeqjqkp/world_on_fire_zpsqhjl2x1h.png)

Daredevil's current costume is darker. And his mask is sometimes drawn with the nose covered (depending on the artist), similar to the mask in the TV show.

(https://s2.postimg.cc/vso80s9jd/dd_mask_zpscg2ceem6.png)

There have been other subtle nods too, like the Italian gladiator movie poster on the wall of Melvin Potter's workshop, or the occasional reference to the New York Bulletin, or the recent introduction of Father Jordan as a Lantom-like figure for Matt to confide in. As someone who wasn't enamoured with Mark Waid's light-hearted Silver Age approach to the character, I have to say I approve of all these changes. It feels like the comic book Daredevil has returned to his dark roots and is back to his old self again. And I believe the TV series is at least partly to credit for that.

On the subject of the TV show, Charlie Cox has recently said they're to start filming season 3 later this year (woo-hoo!). Jessica Jones season 2 is also about to commence filming. This raises the problem of which series will get the spring release date in 2018 and which will have to wait until summer. I'm hoping DD gets the spring release. Partly because it means I don't have to wait as long to see it, partly because I enjoyed the fact the first two seasons were released in spring, and partly because – if season 3 is an adaptation of Miller and Mazzucchelli's Daredevil: Born Again, as many of us suspect – it's the perfect superhero story for Easter. Born Again is essentially an allegory for the Passion:

•   Matt is betrayed by someone close to him who sells him out in exchange for cheap material gain (a fix of heroine instead of thirty pieces of silver).

•   Matt is publicly defamed and accused of a crime of which he is innocent.

•   Matt is scourged by his enemy and brutalised to the brink of death.

•   Matt staggers around the streets of New York, mirroring Christ's walk to Golgotha. During this walk, Matt falls three times.

•   Matt is pieced in the side.

•   Matt then symbolically 'dies' and is held in his mother's arms in an image that consciously evokes the Pietà.

(https://s2.postimg.cc/yqps886kp/pieta_zpsahkea0jk.png)

•   There's also an obvious crucifixion image in one chapter, with the cross above Matt's bed serving to highlight the significance of his pose.

(https://s2.postimg.cc/ft5kh8dhl/crucifixion_zpsgu09skn2.png)

•   Several days pass while Matt convalesces. Eventually he rises again stronger than before, and returns to save his friends. Themes of resurrection and redemption feature prominently.

Now I'm not expecting a literal scene-for-scene adaptation of this story. But if it is referenced in the main plot of season 3, and if the most important themes and images are preserved, then it would be insane not to release it around Easter.

Arguably, this is off-topic for what this thread is supposed to be about.

Otoh, not too much of anything is going on right now with Daredevil.

Anyway, reread Born Again last night for the first time in a long time. Years, perhaps. And man, I like it better each time I reread it.

I have nothing against Miller's first run on Daredevil. It probably saved Daredevil from the ash heap of history (which would be enough all by itself) and it's obviously a bona fide classic. I love it.

But Born Again is just better, I now realize. In the initial Miller run, Daredevil experienced setbacks (significant ones, even, with the death of Elektra, as an example). But in the main, the good guys mostly won and the bad guys mostly got punished. It plays to expectations in that way.

But Born Again mostly consists of Matt going from one ass-kicking to another to another to another etc. Therefore, when Matt finally regains the inner strength to become Daredevil again, I would argue that he's a better, strong and more impressive hero as a result.

In fact, I could even half ass argue that as Hush is Batman's series finale, Born Again could be Daredevil's series finale. Y'know, the end point where you can exit out of a character's publication history because you've come to a natural and logical conclusion. Of course, after Born Again was published, we got the totality of Daredevil vol. 02. So perhaps Born Again is not the character's best ending. But it's still a very strong ending.

I love this storyline!

Marvel should have reacquired the rights to Daredevil by now, but so far there's been no news regarding their plans for the character. While we wait, here's a new video examining the cancelled Daredevil video game from 2003.

Deborah Ann Woll tweeted this picture today.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoDC6iZUwAE9lDV?format=jpg&name=medium)

https://www.twitter.com/DeborahAnnWoll/status/1333279803454021632

Is good news about to come?

It's been confirmed that deaf Native American actress Alaqua Cox is playing Echo in the Hawkeye Disney+ series.

https://www.cbr.com/hawkeye-disney-plus-echo-swordsman-yelena-belova/

So that's yet another major Daredevil character wasted on another hero's TV show. If the Iron Fist and Hawkeye comics don't have enough interesting supporting characters to flesh out their casts, then they shouldn't make TV shows about them in the first place.

Looking at the situation more optimistically, perhaps they're merely introducing Cox's Echo in the Hawkeye series to set her up for the impending return of Cox's Daredevil...?

Take this rumour with a grain of salt, but it's interesting to read nonetheless.

https://www.small-screen.co.uk/mcu-daredevil-movie-reportedly-in-the-works-with-charlie-cox-starring-exclusive/

When asked which Marvel character he'd most like to tackle on the big screen, Zack Snyder expressed interest in adapting Frank Miller's Elektra Lives Again (1990).

Quote"I would choose Elektra Lives Again. Do you know that Frank Miller comic book? It's a graphic novel about Elektra. Daredevil is having these dreams about Elektra coming back to life, and it's really cool and weird...It's just cool, and beautiful. That's what I would do. No one cares, but that's what I would do."

https://screenrant.com/zack-snyder-join-marvel-elektra-lives-again-movie/

The art style and page layouts of Elektra Lives Again are very similar to those of The Dark Knight Returns, so I can see it appealing to Snyder's visual sensibility. But it's an incredibly dark story, full of gore and nudity, so there's no way it would ever be adapted as an MCU feature film. Not unless Marvel starts producing r-rated movies for the Disney+ Star channel.


They could have adapted it for the Netflix show – and indeed aspects of it were referenced in The Defenders (2017) – but it wouldn't fit with the current tone of the MCU movies. It also has a strong oneiric quality that's probably too abstract for mainstream CBM audiences. I've never been a big fan of Elektra Lives Again anyway, so I'm not especially keen to see it turned into a film. There are plenty of superior Daredevil stories out there that are more deserving of adaptation.

Kevin Feige was recently asked about the possibility of Cox returning.

Quote Is there any chance that Charlie Cox could be back as Daredevil or do you consider what happened with Netflix almost like an alternate universe?

FEIGE: I look at anything that's happened before, whether it's our movies, whether it's Marvel entertainment TV series, in particular, obviously the comics, video games, cartoons, all of it is available as inspiration for the future of Marvel. That's the way that comics have worked for many years. So, we'll see.

I think a lot of people really loved Charlie in that role and are hopeful that he can find a way back.

He wouldn't say anything. Just looked at me and smiled.

https://collider.com/kevin-feige-interview-wandavision-she-hulk-deadpool-3-secret-invasion

Yeah, I reckon something's in the works. :)

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 13 Jan  2021, 18:29
Kevin Feige was recently asked about the possibility of Cox returning.

Quote Is there any chance that Charlie Cox could be back as Daredevil or do you consider what happened with Netflix almost like an alternate universe?

FEIGE: I look at anything that's happened before, whether it's our movies, whether it's Marvel entertainment TV series, in particular, obviously the comics, video games, cartoons, all of it is available as inspiration for the future of Marvel. That's the way that comics have worked for many years. So, we'll see.

I think a lot of people really loved Charlie in that role and are hopeful that he can find a way back.

He wouldn't say anything. Just looked at me and smiled.

https://collider.com/kevin-feige-interview-wandavision-she-hulk-deadpool-3-secret-invasion

Yeah, I reckon something's in the works. :)

Back when the Netflix shows were a going concern, I got the distinct impression that Marvel Studios in general and Feige in particular had no use whatsoever for them. Considering Daredevil's proximity to Miller with some Bendis/Maleev thrown in, Jessica Jones overlap with Bendis and Punisher's general Ennis vibe... I mean, yeah, I could see where those specific influences were foreign to the tone that the MCU was shooting for. The grittiness of those characters isn't easy to tonally reconcile with Thor: Ragnarok, for example. Perhaps that was why Feige distanced the big screen MCU from them? It sounded reasonable at the time.

But considering some rumors and allegations going on about Jeph Loeb, one wonders if Feige was trying to keep Loeb at arm's length more than anything. If the answer was "no", I'm sure Feige would probably say so.

I guess we'll find out soon enough. But considering that Charlie Cox is most certainly the closest we'll ever get to the Bendis/Maleev run, it seems hopelessly foolish to cast him aside.

If the rumours I've heard about Loeb's conduct are true, then I can understand Feige wanting to distance himself from potential controversy and not work with the guy.

Adding more fuel to the rumours of Cox's return, The Hollywood Reporter has quoted Feige as making the following remarks concerning the Netflix actors:

QuoteFrom 2015-19, Marvel has multiple Netflix shows set in the MCU, including Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and The Punisher. Netflix pulled the plug on those series as Disney prepared to launch its own streaming competitor. While the focus has been to introduce new characters, such as She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel, as well as to bring in MCU film actors, characters from the Netflix shows are still in play.

"Everything is on the board," says Feige. "That's one of the fun things about the comics is that characters would appear and disappear and come and go. All of it is inspiration for the future. There are some great characters and actors from those shows."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/marvel-hopes-to-conjure-up-streaming-magic-with-wandavision

https://geekositymag.com/charlie-cox-daredevil-to-appear-in-hawkeye-on-disney-plus/

I still have a hard time imagining Cox's Daredevil, as dark as he is, mingling with anyone in the MCU. Unless if he plays another version of the character whose tone fits with the rest of the universe.

Let's see if this rumour is true.

Since the latest Spider-Man trailer was released, there's been some speculation that the figure on the right is Matt.


Charlie Cox has now addressed those rumours.

Quote"I can promise you those are not my forearms."

https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/spider-man-no-way-home-spoilers-charlie-cox-not-in-trailer-confirmed/

He also discussed the rumours of his involvement in No Way Home during a recent interview with Steve Varley. The whole interview's interesting, but the Spider-Man part begins at the 9-minute mark.


It's sure starting to sound as though he is in the movie. But we'll have to wait and see. If he is in the film, then I hope they give him at least one scene with Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man. The two of them are old friends, and in the past when Charlie's been asked which other superhero he'd like his Daredevil to team up with he's usually answered Garfield's Spider-Man.


If anyone's getting anxious waiting to find out if Cox is in No Way Home, then here's some relaxing DD-inspired music to help you chill. It's good for aiding prayer and meditation.

#Daredevil has been trending on Twitter today following a leak that claims the TV series is being revived for a fourth season on Disney+ with Charlie Cox back in the lead. However this has not been officially confirmed yet, so for now it's just a rumour. But if it turns out to be true...

It's now been more than three years since the last season of Daredevil, and because of this #SaveDaredevil has been trending on social media over the past week.

Cox was recently asked yet again about the possibility of some sort of revival.

Quote"What happens in the comics is a writer and an artist will team up for a run of a comic, so they'll do 10 issues, 20 issues. If there was an opportunity for me to come back as Daredevil, whatever that would look like, I imagine it would be a reimagining of the character and the show. If they choose me to do it, there are going to be some elements that are, of course, the same. Or they might choose someone else and reboot it all over again.

You've got to be careful what you wish for. You come back and it's not as good or it doesn't quite work or ... too much time has passed, it doesn't quite come together in the same way. You don't want to taint what you've already got. If we never come back, you've got these three great seasons — and our third season was our best-reviewed. So, the trajectory was up. I am tremendously proud and grateful for what we have."

Like he says, at least we'll always have those three awesome seasons. It's still the best dark live action superhero show ever.

Charlie Cox is rumoured to come back as Daredevil yet again, but as another version of the character. As a matter of fact, all the other leading Netflix actors, except for Finn Jones and maybe Mike Colter, are rumoured to come back playing different versions of their characters.

https://geekositymag.com/marvel-studios-makes-change-to-charlie-cox-daredevil-in-spider-man-no-way-home/

As disappointing as it is, I can't say I'm surprised if this is true. Cox's brooding and violent take doesn't gel with the rest of what the MCU. In fact, this would all but confirm the Netflix universe was its own entity separate from the MCU, if there was any doubt before.

It's a shame. I can't imagine the MCU version of Daredevil will top what was established on Netflix. Sadly, I don't see a fourth season ever happening now that Disney and Netflix have become streaming competitors. That's not even taking Feige's ego and the apparent animosity between the two companies into account.

Writer David Hayter was quoted saying Daredevil would be rebooted.

Quote from: David Hayter
You know, they're doing a reboot of Daredevil and Daredevil was always a very important character to me, and I loved the, I loved the first way they did it. But there's certain things that I, you know that I want to adapt from the Frank Miller run on Daredevil that really meant a lot to me. Um, I yeah, I I mean, that's that's really the one.

https://www.small-screen.co.uk/daredevil-reboot-at-marvel-confirmed-by-writer-david-hayter/

The media are sharing the news everywhere online, but Hayter is now denying it and clarifying what he meant.

Quote from: David Hayter
Since this seems to be trending...

No, I did not "confirm" a Daredevil reboot.

I mistakenly thought I'd read in the trades that it was happening, and I would love to see it. (And yes, I'd love to write it.)

But I have no inside information whatsoever.

https://www.twitter.com/DavidBHayter/status/1458889401732579328

The reboot idea tracks because the rumored DD end credits scene implies pretty heavily that DD is about to be DD for the first time.

Kevin Feige has confirmed Charlie Cox will return as Matt Murdock/Daredevil.

Quote
"If you were to see Daredevil in upcoming things, Charlie Cox, yes, would be the actor playing Daredevil," Feige told CinemaBlend Sunday. "Where we see that, how we see that, when we see that, remains to be seen."

https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/daredevil-kevin-feige-confirms-charlie-cox-return/

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu, 11 Nov  2021, 21:17
The reboot idea tracks because the rumored DD end credits scene implies pretty heavily that DD is about to be DD for the first time.

I can't say I'd be surprised if this is true. I'm not happy with the idea, but it is likely that will be the case, as I've said a few times.

Nevertheless, let's hope for the very best for Charlie Cox's Daredevil in the MCU.

(https://sciencefiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/charlie-cox-daredevil-mcu-750x409.jpg)

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon,  6 Dec  2021, 08:06
Kevin Feige has confirmed Charlie Cox will return as Matt Murdock/Daredevil.

Quote
"If you were to see Daredevil in upcoming things, Charlie Cox, yes, would be the actor playing Daredevil," Feige told CinemaBlend Sunday. "Where we see that, how we see that, when we see that, remains to be seen."

I appreciate his efforts at being coy. But honestly, who does Feige think he's fooling? He won't make a powder keg statement like that unless something is already on the docket. A done deal, pretty much. FFH seems like the most logical place for Cox to pop up, but what do I know?

Still, if I were a betting man, I'd tell you that FFH won't fully unspool without at least a cameo by Cox promising more to come in the very near future. Nothing else makes much sense.

Great news about Cox returning, though I think most of us already suspected it was happening.

I haven't been watching the Hawkeye show, but apparently it's introduced the MCU version of Maya Lopez/Echo along with a mysterious character referred to as 'uncle'. The internet is convinced that uncle is D'Onofrio's Fisk. This theory would fit with Echo's back story in the comics, and his laugh certainly sounds like D'Onofrio's.


It's been announced that Echo's getting her own solo series on Disney+. Hopefully it'll be an adaptation of David Mack's Parts of a Hole. They already adapted elements from that comic in the 2003 Daredevil movie with Elektra's storyline, but a proper faithful adaption with Cox and D'Onofrio could be awseome. Obviously I'd still like to see Daredevil get his own new solo series or movie, ideally featuring Mister Fear and the return of Bullseye. But having Matt co-star in the Echo series would be a good way of tiding fans over while we wait for something more DD-centric.

Tom Holland has ducked a question about Daredevil appearing in No Way Home, but he did at least sing some praise for Cox and D'Onofrio:

Quote"I loved Daredevil. I really, really enjoyed it," Holland says. "I thought Charlie Cox was excellent. I thought Vincent D'Onofrio did a fantastic job as Wilson Fisk. It was really cool to see a darker side to a Marvel character. That fight scene in the hallway was spectacular. I know some of the stunt guys that built that sequence. I thought it was a great show."

Holland admits he hasn't seen all of Daredevil. "I don't think I saw the second season, but I definitely remember enjoying the first season," he says.

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/spider-man-no-way-home-tom-holland-mit-doctor-strange

SPOILERS for Hawkeye.

The following photograph of the mysterious 'Big Man' appeared in episode 5.


With Cox and D'Onofrio returning, it looks as though the MCU is finally capitalising on its greatest assets.

Personally, my investment in the MCU is so low that incorporating the Netflixverse (or at least the Daredevil elements) is probably the only way to retain my interest.

So, kudos and kudos again to whoever is in charge for making this decision. I'm very interested to see what's coming.

It looks like he's holding a cane in that picture like the comic book Fisk.


In the past some fans have complained that the Netflix Kingpin wouldn't be strong enough to go up against MCU heroes like Spider-Man, but I've always assumed that he and Daredevil would both get their power levels amped if they were fully integrated into the MCU. Even bound by the more grounded reality of the Netflix shows, D'Onofrio's Kingpin was already freakishly strong to begin with.


He was strong enough to pulverise a man's skull with a car door, break free of metal handcuffs, punch a hole in a solid brick wall and shatter Bullseye's spine. I reckon he could hold his own against the likes of Renner's Hawkeye.

It's quite clever how Marvel timed it so that Cox's return (Spider-Man: No Way Home) and D'Onofrio's return (Hawkeye) occurred in the same week.

I haven't seen Hawkeye, but I have been reading audience reactions to Fisk's appearance and watching some clips online. SPOILERS ahoy for those who care.

Most people seem to be saying that D'Onofrio's performance is good, but that Kingpin isn't as intimidating as he was in the Netflixverse. He does indeed have his cane, which is cool, and it looks like his strength and durability levels have increased, as I expected they would.


At the end of the episode he gets shot by Echo. This is adapted from the end of the Parts of a Hole storyline, where Echo shot and blinded Kingpin.


I'm a bit annoyed about this. I was hoping they'd save Parts of a Hole for a new Daredevil show or movie, or for when Daredevil could appear in Echo's solo series. But once again, Marvel has given one of Daredevil's classic stories to another hero. I don't resent them using Mister Hyde in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. because he was never an exclusive Daredevil villain to begin with, and I don't resent Purple Man appearing in Jessica Jones because it would be impossible to adapt Alias without him. I do however resent Marvel wasting the Nuke storyline as a subplot in Jessica Jones season 1, and for wasting Ann Nocenti's classic Typhoid Mary arc as a subplot in Iron Fist season 2 (I liked Alice Eve in the role, but they really dropped the ball when it came to adapting her character and storyline). And I resent them squandering the Parts of a Hole storyline on Hawkeye.

That's three classic Daredevil stories that we won't get to see adapted with Cox's Daredevil, all because Marvel replaced Matt with other heroes in the adaptation. If those other heroes don't have strong storylines or villains of their own, then why adapt them for the screen in the first place? If Marvel wants to adapt those Daredevil storylines, then why not just adapt them as Daredevil stories in a Daredevil TV show? Imagine if DC adapted Knightfall but with Green Arrow in place of Batman, or if they made a film of 'What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?' with Captain Marvel in place of Superman.

Anyway, Charlie Cox's scene from No Way Home has been uploaded to YouTube numerous times. I won't bother posting it here, since any clip I link will be taken down in a matter of hours. But if you go on YouTube and search for it, you should find at least one version available.

A few rumours I've heard lately – and these are just rumours, totally unsubstantiated and quite possibly nonsense – include:

•   Elden Henson and Deborah Ann Woll are also set to return.

•   Cox and D'Onofrio have already filmed scenes for other MCU movies and TV shows, but their involvement in those projects is being kept under wraps.

•   Cox's new MCU Daredevil costume is based on the original yellow and red version from the Silver Age comics rather than the more common design.


That last rumour, if true, is pretty interesting. I'm very curious to see what the yellow Daredevil costume would look like in live action, since no one has ever attempted to adapt it before. It might actually look better than the red suit, especially if the yellow parts are more of a gold colour like Nite Owl II's costume in Snyder's Watchmen movie. Here are some manips (not mine) showing what it might look like.


I might have a go at creating my own manip at some point. If Marvel can get Daredevil's yellow and red costume right in live action, then they've no excuse not to use Wolverine's classic comic book costume in the next X-Men movie. Using the yellow costume would also offer fans a good way of separating the two different halves of Cox's tenure as Daredevil. Everything prior to No Way Home could be referred to as the Daredevil Red era, and everything subsequent as the Daredevil Yellow era.

I mean, I can kind of understand why villains get passed around like party favors. The fan consensus (i.e., not my opinion) is that Marvel has better heroes but DC has a virtual monopoly on villains. Quality villains are hard to come by in the Marvel Universe. So, I can overlook some things.

But as you say, it seems like it's Daredevil who routinely gets shafted out of storylines so that they can be badly applied to other characters.

Honestly, this is part of my MCU critique. Civil War was an epic story that provided two separate (but equally compelling) points of view about a totally believable conflict. The mutant characters had a sort of interesting position on the whole Superhero Registration Act thing as well. "Oh, NOW you understand why registering with the government isn't such a good thing, golly, if only someone had warned you about this years ago!" It was a great bit and I enjoyed that stuff.

Bottom line, the events of the story affected everyone, a lot of people made some very bad choices and there were consequences to what happened. In the comics, that is.

In the MCU, meh. Civil War was one movie. And yes, it did have some ramifications. But those mostly related to Iron Man and Cap. The other characters pretty much got over it easily enough. The registration bit itself was sort of toothless in the first place since most of the heroes were already public in some way or another.

Marvel Studios seems to want to adapt Diet Coke versions of some major storylines into live action. But they're brief, they're done in shorthand and, Infinity War aside, those gigantic events tend not to get dwelled upon for very long before it's off to whatever bs comes next.

I can somewhat exempt the Netflixverse from this since one season of a show typically reverberated in subsequent seasons. The Defenders hinged on that, in fact. So, even if Shadowland didn't have the full measure of justice that I think the story merited, eh, they did pretty well considering it was done for TV. Hardly perfect. But not awful either.

Daredevil once again ranks among the top ten streamed shows thanks to renewed interest resulting from Hawkeye and No Way Home.

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/daredevil-netflix-hawkeye-kingpin-nielsen-ratings-1235158812/

A deleted Kingpin scene from Hawkeye has appeared online which apparently takes place after the Battle of New York but before the events of Daredevil season 1. Fisk is wearing his black suit from DDs1.

https://twitter.com/MarcLeStrange1/status/1484041232955359234

End of an era.

Quote
'Daredevil' Seasons 1-3 Leaving Netflix in March 2022

Seasons 1 to 3 of 'Daredevil' will be leaving Netflix on March 1st, 2022.

...

Not only is Daredevil scheduled to leave Netflix globally, but all of the series related to The Defenders including The Punisher, Jessica Jones, Iron Fist and Luke Cage will all be leaving Netflix.

https://www.whats-on-netflix.com/leaving-soon/daredevil-seasons-1-3-leaving-netflix-in-march-2022/

Now that Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio are officially in the MCU, I'm confident the original Daredevil show will be streaming on Disney Plus, but maybe with parental settings.

I heard rumours some of the other Defenders characters will get recast somewhere down the line. If that's the case then I won't be surprised if some of the original Netflix shows become hard to find and Disney won't stream them.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 12 Feb  2022, 07:37
End of an era.

Quote
'Daredevil' Seasons 1-3 Leaving Netflix in March 2022

Seasons 1 to 3 of 'Daredevil' will be leaving Netflix on March 1st, 2022.

...

Not only is Daredevil scheduled to leave Netflix globally, but all of the series related to The Defenders including The Punisher, Jessica Jones, Iron Fist and Luke Cage will all be leaving Netflix.

https://www.whats-on-netflix.com/leaving-soon/daredevil-seasons-1-3-leaving-netflix-in-march-2022/

Now that Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio are officially in the MCU, I'm confident the original Daredevil show will be streaming on Disney Plus, but maybe with parental settings.

I heard rumours some of the other Defenders characters will get recast somewhere down the line. If that's the case then I won't be surprised if some of the original Netflix shows become hard to find and Disney won't stream them.

Didn't see this coming. But I guess it makes sense.

Now that Cox's future is secure, I've turned my sights toward Jessica Jones. Aside from Daredevil, JJ is the Netflix show that I probably enjoyed the most. And JJ possibly going down the memory hole is sad.

I've heard the rumors that all the Netflix shows will get dumped onto Hulu or something. And at this point, I hope that's what happens.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 12 Feb  2022, 16:12
Now that Cox's future is secure, I've turned my sights toward Jessica Jones. Aside from Daredevil, JJ is the Netflix show that I probably enjoyed the most. And JJ possibly going down the memory hole is sad.

Agreed. Although I wasn't initially keen on Jessica Jones Season One, but upon rewatch, I got a new found appreciation for it now. It's definitely the second best Marvel Netflix show. I even enjoyed the second season despite it was the beginning of Trish Walker's descent to darkness, and season three was a little mixed, but still better than Iron Fist's first season, or even Defenders.

I've heard rumours of Jon Bernthal will return as the Punisher, but the rest of the Netflix characters will get recast. That sucks particularly for JJ because Krysten Ritter suited the role. Not to mention she's adorable.

I wonder if Marvel decides not to stream the other original Netflix shows in favour of the new actors playing these characters? The original Daredevil show should be safe because of how successful and popular it was, but I'm afraid the other shows that aren't part of the future will get scrapped. Which means if you want to watch Defenders and Jessica Jones again, you're going to have a hard time trying to find them.

Disney Plus will stream Daredevil AND all of the other Netflix Marvel shows with updated parental controls on March 16th.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2022/03/01/disney-plus-ups-parental-controls-r-rated-marvel-shows-arrive/9331301002/

Very surprising news. I was convinced only Daredevil had a chance to move onto D+, but this is great news if you're a fan of the other shows.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed,  2 Mar  2022, 10:01
Disney Plus will stream Daredevil AND all of the other Netflix Marvel shows with updated parental controls on March 16th.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2022/03/01/disney-plus-ups-parental-controls-r-rated-marvel-shows-arrive/9331301002/

Very surprising news. I was convinced only Daredevil had a chance to move onto D+, but this is great news if you're a fan of the other shows.

I wonder what that means for the other shows in terms of canonicity. I'm still holding on to hope that Krysten Ritter's turn as Jessica Jones can be translated into the proper MCU. If anybody besides Cox deserves to have their Netflix work recognized by MCU continuity, it's Ritter.

This awesome mod is the closest thing to a Daredevil game we've gotten so far.

https://youtu.be/ckiDEMIzETE

A Daredevil reboot is in production according to the film industry publication Production Weekly, though it's unclear whether it's a movie or TV show.


Some sites reporting on this are speculating that the new film/show might start filming as early as sometime this year. I hope that's true.

"Reboot" is one of the most misused words in the entertainment world. For those worrying, this may not actually be a reboot.

Marvel.com has updated the bios of the MCU Daredevil and Kingpin to incorporate the events of the Netflix shows, and many are taking this as confirmation that those shows are now officially part of the MCU canon.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2022/04/03/the-daredevil-defenders-mcu-canon-debate-is-over/?sh=26bb5bf178aa

So it looks like that Daredevil reboot is going to be of the 'soft' variety, and that Cox and D'Onofrio are playing the same versions of Matt and Fisk that they played in the Netflix shows. Presumably this means we can expect Henson and Woll to return, along with Whalley's Maggie and Bethel's Bullseye. :)

Golly.

'Daredevil' Disney+ Series in the Works With Matt Corman, Chris Ord Set to Write (EXCLUSIVE)
https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/daredevil-disney-plus-series-matt-corman-chris-ord-1235272299

A new "Daredevil" series is moving forward at Disney+, with Variety having exclusively learned from sources that Matt Corman and Chris Ord are attached to write and executive produce.

Rumors have persisted for some time that a Disney+ series about the Man Without Fear was in the works, especially considering that two of the stars of the Netflix "Daredevil" series — Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio — have appeared in recent Marvel projects. Cox once again played Matt Murdock, the secret identity of Daredevil, in the film "Spider-Man: No Way Home," while D'Onofrio reprised the role of Wilson Fisk, a.k.a. Kingpin, in the Disney+ series "Hawkeye."

It now appears that the project is picking up steam with the hiring of Corman and Ord, although Marvel has yet to announce anything regarding the show formally.

Reps for Corman and Ord declined to comment. Marvel Studios reps do not comment on projects in development.

Corman and Ord most famously co-created the USA Network series "Covert Affairs" starring Piper Perabo and Christopher Gorham. The show aired for five seasons on the basic cabler between 2010 and 2014.  They most recently worked as executive producers and co-showrunners on the NBC drama shows "The Enemy Within" and "The Brave" as well as The CW series "Containment."

I'm excited. And frightened.

The television industry has changed a lot since 2015-18, and not necessarily for the better. But I can't wait to see Cox back as Daredevil, and until I'm given a reason to be concerned I'm going to maintain an open and enthusiastic perspective on this.

Keep the cast from the Netflix show, stay true to the character and avoid adapting stories that have already been adapted, and we should be good. It would also be nice if they could bring Drew Goddard back to write an episode or two.

Not optimistic. Season one was one of the best things I've ever seen. Season two was one of the worst things I've ever seen. Season three wasn't much better.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 19 May  2022, 22:02I'm excited. And frightened.

The television industry has changed a lot since 2015-18, and not necessarily for the better. But I can't wait to see Cox back as Daredevil, and until I'm given a reason to be concerned I'm going to maintain an open and enthusiastic perspective on this.

Keep the cast from the Netflix show, stay true to the character and avoid adapting stories that have already been adapted, and we should be good. It would also be nice if they could bring Drew Goddard back to write an episode or two.

Based on the fact that the Netflix shows have been ported over to Disney+, I think it makes sense to assume the previous series remains canon.

What concerns me is, well, DISNEY. Okay, so Disney is bending their usual rules to bring the old shows into the fold. But in terms of content, I think we shouldn't be too surprised if the show going forward maybe isn't as unrelentingly dark as, say, season 01 was. You know, where Matt weighed the pros and cons of whacking out the Kingpin once and for all. Or all the Shadowland-lite stuff.

I'm not predicting anything, you understand. Just saying we should perhaps consider the possibility that the show might take a bit more of a lighter direction going forward.

Prove me wrong, Disney+!

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 20 May  2022, 00:38
Based on the fact that the Netflix shows have been ported over to Disney+, I think it makes sense to assume the previous series remains canon.

What concerns me is, well, DISNEY. Okay, so Disney is bending their usual rules to bring the old shows into the fold. But in terms of content, I think we shouldn't be too surprised if the show going forward maybe isn't as unrelentingly dark as, say, season 01 was. You know, where Matt weighed the pros and cons of whacking out the Kingpin once and for all. Or all the Shadowland-lite stuff.

I'm not predicting anything, you understand. Just saying we should perhaps consider the possibility that the show might take a bit more of a lighter direction going forward.

Prove me wrong, Disney+!

After watching Kingpin in Hawkeye, I reckon it would be wise to assume anything that involves him and Daredevil is going to be very light going forward. Put it this way, I have a hard time imagining Wilson Fisk can keep a low profile after everything that happened in Daredevil Season Three. I have an even harder time the same Fisk who bashed a man's face in with a car door until his head exploded into a watermelon would associate himself with that goofy gang led by Echo.

I'm happy to see Cox and D'Onofrio again, but I reckon it's better to keep your hopes and expectations in check.

Charlie Cox is voicing Daredevil in the new animated series Spider-Man: Freshman Year which is set to debut on Disney+ in 2024: https://thedirect.com/article/charlie-cox-daredevil-disney-spider-man-show This is meant to be a prequel series set before the MCU Spider-Man joined the Avengers, though its canonicity is a little sketchy at present. Here's what Daredevil will look like in the show.


If this series is canonical then from Matt's perspective it must take place around the time of the first season of the Netflix show. Presumably Daredevil's secret identity will remake unknown to Spider-Man, since Peter clearly didn't know about Matt's abilities when they met in No Way Home.

The new show has been announced at SDCC.

Quote
Marvel Studios' Daredevil: Born Again, an Original series starring Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio, streaming Spring 2024 on @DisneyPlus. #SDCC2022

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYZCWZ3UsAAWd7W?format=jpg)

https://www.twitter.com/MarvelStudios/status/1551000839283585024

This is a fairly natural progression from season 3.

But season 3 somewhat dabbled with the Born Again story. So, I'm wondering how this thing will be explored. Has it been confirmed that all three previous seasons of the show are still in continuity? I mean, in a sense, it kind of doesn't matter whether they're in continuity or not. They still exist.

Anyway. It's not that I have a bad feeling about this. Yet. I'm just a little confused, that's all.

The latest She-Hulk trailer confirms Daredevil's appearance.


It looks like the reports of him getting a new red and yellow costume based on his original Silver Age suit could be true. Or is the splash of yellow merely the colour of the car headlights? Either way, looking good.


Judging from the distance of that leap, Marvel has amped Matt's superhuman powers. I expected they would after they amped Kingpin's strength in Hawkeye.