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http://www.deadline.com/2013/09/commissioner-gordon-fox-tv-series-drama/

Wasn't sure where to post this.  Since the Man of Steel sequel will show the next incarnation of Batman, I thought this would be the most appropriate place for now since this could be the next incarnation of Gordon:

QuoteIn one of the biggest drama deals this season, after a bidding war, Fox has landed Gotham, from Warner Bros. TV and The Mentalist creator Bruno Heller, with a series commitment. For Gotham, Warner Bros TV is mining one of DC Comics' most popular character universes, Batman. It explores the origin stories of Commissioner James Gordon and the villains that made Gotham famous. In Gotham, Gordon is still a detective with the Gotham City Police Department and is yet to meet Batman who will not be part of the series.

Interesting!

Could we get getting something like the O'Neil / Giordano / Janson short series "Gotham of Gordon" or "Gotham Central" from Brubaker / Rucka / Lark? Either way there is plenty of rich source material to choose from.

It seems like a pity to have such a definite exclusion of Batman. With a confirmed film casting, how cool would it be to have Ben Affleck's Batman bookend the series! Even if it was a shadowy over the shoulder shot that only required a voice-over from Affleck.

What does this deal between WB and Fox also mean for the Bill Dozier / Adam West Batman series?

this sounds cool. only problem is fox series only last like two episodes before they cancel lol.

A "Gotham" series without Batman? I feel cheated...

I have to say I've never cared for superhero tv shows. Because you always get the same concept of what this show shall be: a Batman universe set series WITHOUT Batman. They always feel short changed compared to movies.

The Incredible Hulk starring Bill Bixby only ever featured the Hulk himself for a handful of minutes in a hour programme. Lois and Clark focussed on the alter ego side of Superman keeping the Man of Steel himself to a minimum. So did Smallville. Even the old cheesey Amazing Spider-Man show lacked the true emotion of Peter Parker as well as the rogues gallery of villains. The only one I ever truly loved despite it's campiness was Batman. It had it all nevertheless: Batcave, Batmobile, Batcycle, Batcopter, Batboat, Robin, all the classic Bat villains, comic book style colours, sound effect balloons. It felt packed with all the Batman comic traditions with plenty of impressive action later super hero shows took great pains to avoid.

I'm currently dicey about this new Agents of SHIELD show. I gather we won't see hide nor tail of classic Marvel characters like Cap or Iron Man and will instead be treated to a show about a bunch of special agents in suits. Still I'm going to give it a look but I sort of feel I know what to expect. Why can't somebody bring the cinematic thrills down onto our tv screens for a change instead of playing it safe? I'm sure the Gordon series will be a fine show to see, but how much more exciting would it be to bring Batman back in live action on television screens for the first time since Adam West? Concurrently with the movies of course.

If the TV shows did the same thing as the films surely it would dilute the films' appeal.  Not to mention, a one-off TV episode won't have the budget to provide the same cinematic spectacle a movie like 'The Avengers' or 'The Dark Knight Rises' can provide.

I'm no fan of Fox but on the other hand, I dislike the CW's hackneyed and bland teen-orientated style for shows like 'Green Arrow' so I welcome this news to some degree.  It's not a bad concept although I hope by focusing on Gordon and his team (including hopefully, Rene Montoya, Harvey Bullock, Crispus Allen and Jim Corrigan, characters we have unfortunately not yet seen in the films) the show doesn't stint on portraying the more fantastical, USP comic-book world of Gotham City particularly in terms of the villains.

...if only the three letters were "HBO" and not "Fox"...

QuoteI'm no fan of Fox but on the other hand, I dislike the CW's hackneyed and bland teen-orientated style for shows like 'Green Arrow' so I welcome this news to some degree.  It's not a bad concept although I hope by focusing on Gordon and his team (including hopefully, Rene Montoya, Harvey Bullock, Crispus Allen and Jim Corrigan, characters we have unfortunately not yet seen in the films) the show doesn't stint on portraying the more fantastical, USP comic-book world of Gotham City particularly in terms of the villains.

TV versions of villains can easily turn from fantastical to farsical. I prefer if the show focuses on the more "grounded" side of Gotham, with police work etc. Personally I like it that Batman was spared Superman's overexposure on TV in the 90s/00s.

Quote from: SilentEnigma on Thu, 26 Sep  2013, 08:58
...if only the three letters were "HBO" and not "Fox"...

Indeed

QuoteTV versions of villains can easily turn from fantastical to farsical. I prefer if the show focuses on the more "grounded" side of Gotham, with police work etc. Personally I like it that Batman was spared Superman's overexposure on TV in the 90s/00s.

Sure, but you need to differentiate the show from the likes of 'NYPD Blue' or whatever the equivalent is at the moment (i.e. 'CSI Whatever' etc).  The really outlandish villains probably wouldn't work but this is still a spin-off from a comic-book and do we need another ultra-sombre and po-faced Gotham City so soon after 'The Dark Knight' trilogy?

No Batman I can accept, but no escapism or fantasy either and I'd probably feel a little cheated.

Might be interesting if they have a heavy focus on the villains. The new SHIELD show is basically the avengers without the avengers. There's dozens of cop shows out there, having one focusing on Gordon; an idealist among the corrupt might not be a bad thing.

Plus just because there's no Batman doesn't mean the Wayne's can't be featured. Think Batman Begins Begins (but hopefully without all the Nolanism).

Quote from: riddler on Thu, 26 Sep  2013, 13:38
Might be interesting if they have a heavy focus on the villains. The new SHIELD show is basically the avengers without the avengers. There's dozens of cop shows out there, having one focusing on Gordon; an idealist among the corrupt might not be a bad thing.

Plus just because there's no Batman doesn't mean the Wayne's can't be featured. Think Batman Begins Begins (but hopefully without all the Nolanism).

Do you think the show should deal exclusively with the early days of Gordon's career or would a flashback structure dealing incorporating a strand featuring young Gordon, and a 'present-day' strand would be the best way to go?  Alternatively, should it just deal with Gordon in the present?

I'd like some of the 'Batman: Year One' stuff featuring a corrupt (rather than merely inept, ala 'Batman Begins') Commissioner Loeb and a more physically imposing Detective Flass but I also hope we don't have to wait too long to see Bullock, Montoya and the other key team-members of 'Gotham City Police Department'.

Bearing in mind the wealth of supporting characters, particularly cops and other officials like Mayors Hill and Marion Grange, this could be a real kick-ass show to look forward to.  Gordon's family and affair could and should be covered as should the revolving door of District Attorneys including Dent and Janet Porter, and the various crime families and serial killers that plague the force, like the extended Falcone family and the Holiday Killer.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Thu, 26 Sep  2013, 14:54

Quote from: riddler on Thu, 26 Sep  2013, 13:38
Might be interesting if they have a heavy focus on the villains. The new SHIELD show is basically the avengers without the avengers. There's dozens of cop shows out there, having one focusing on Gordon; an idealist among the corrupt might not be a bad thing.

Plus just because there's no Batman doesn't mean the Wayne's can't be featured. Think Batman Begins Begins (but hopefully without all the Nolanism).

Do you think the show should deal exclusively with the early days of Gordon's career or would a flashback structure dealing incorporating a strand featuring young Gordon, and a 'present-day' strand would be the best way to go?  Alternatively, should it just deal with Gordon in the present?

I'd like some of the 'Batman: Year One' stuff featuring a corrupt (rather than merely inept, ala 'Batman Begins') Commissioner Loeb and a more physically imposing Detective Flass but I also hope we don't have to wait too long to see Bullock, Montoya and the other key team-members of 'Gotham City Police Department'.

Bearing in mind the wealth of supporting characters, particularly cops and other officials like Mayors Hill and Marion Grange, this could be a real kick-ass show to look forward to.  Gordon's family and affair could and should be covered as should the revolving door of District Attorneys including Dent and Janet Porter, and the various crime families and serial killers that plague the force, like the extended Falcone family and the Holiday Killer.

I'm thinking it should start before year one but not sure how much before. There's different ways to tackle such a concept;
-if you accept year one as canon, Gordon is the officer who comforts young Bruce Wayne after the death of his parents. So Gordon becomes an officer 15-20 years before Bruce Wayne becomes Batman
-Arkham asylum has a history going back over 100 years, it can be a focal point
-not an awful lot is discussed pertaining to Alfred and the Waynes. That could be an area to explore.
-it would be kind of neat to see villains before they become villains; a young selina kyle, Edward Nygma, Victor Fries etc. Clayface while still an actor. Maybe even if the show is bold enough, give an origin of the Joker.

How about a TV show chronicling Gordon's career during Batman's ten year absence in The Dark Knight Returns universe? Plotlines could include the rise of the Mutant gang, Harvey Dent's rehabilitation, and the disappearances of villains who didn't appear in Miller's original miniseries. What happened to the Riddler, Penguin and Scarecrow? Tune in to find out.

Selina Kyle would appear occasionally as one of Gordon's underworld contacts, and there would be the occasional reference to Bruce Wayne being locked away in his mansion. It would be a police procedural show, but with a dark sci-fi feel to it. And the last episode of the final season would end with Batman returning to Gotham.

Who would I cast as Gordon? Well since this would need to be the tougher Gordon from Miller's timeline, how about Ted Levine?


He's 56 years old, 5'11 and he looks like the Gordon from the comics. He's played a number of tough cop roles over the years and has appeared in acclaimed movies like The Silence of the Lambs (1991), Heat (1995), American Gangster (2007) and Shutter Island (2010). And although he did voice Sinestro in the DC animated universe, he's never appeared in a live action superhero film. So he wouldn't bring any genre baggage with him.

I know they're focussing on a younger Gordon, but in my universe - which shall henceforth be known as the Silver Nemiverse - Ted Levine is Gordon.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 26 Sep  2013, 20:49
How about a TV show chronicling Gordon's career during Batman's ten year absence in The Dark Knight Returns universe? Plotlines could include the rise of the Mutant gang, Harvey Dent's rehabilitation, and the disappearances of villains who didn't appear in Miller's original miniseries. What happened to the Riddler, Penguin and Scarecrow? Tune in to find out.

Selina Kyle would appear occasionally as one of Gordon's underworld contacts, and there would be the occasional reference to Bruce Wayne being locked away in his mansion. It would be a police procedural show, but with a dark sci-fi feel to it. And the last episode of the final season would end with Batman returning to Gotham.

Who would I cast as Gordon? Well since this would need to be the tougher Gordon from Miller's timeline, how about Ted Levine?

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1272.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy393%2Fsilver-nemesis2%2Ftedlevinegordon_zps199deda5.jpg&hash=5148dd3a5d3d5bf84a627c4c6be488898f554dc9)

He's 56 years old, 5'11 and he looks like the Gordon from the comics. He's played a number of tough cop roles over the years and has appeared in acclaimed movies like The Silence of the Lambs (1991), Heat (1995), American Gangster (2007) and Shutter Island (2010). And although he did voice Sinestro in the DC animated universe, he's never appeared in a live action superhero film. So he wouldn't bring any genre baggage with him.

I know they're focussing on a younger Gordon, but in my universe - which shall henceforth be known as the Silver Nemiverse - Ted Levine is Gordon.

The thing is that film implies that everything magically cleaned itself up with the Harvey Dent act. It also implies Gordons days as a hero were long gone so I suspect it was a boring time for him in that 8 year period. Things couldn't be that chaotic because then the question would be begged 'why didnt Batman done the cowl again earlier'

It would be far less constricting to do a prequel. The only constriction would be who can't die.

I think you're getting your movies and comics mixed up, riddler.  Batman Begins had Gordon as the officer comforting young Bruce, not Year One.  Likewise, Silver Nemesis's TV idea is a prequel to The Dark Knight Returns comic, not The Dark Knight Rises.  (Btw, Silver Nemesis, Ted Levine was my choice for Gordon before Oldman was cast back in 2003/2004).

As for the show, I wouldn't be surprised if, as johnnygobbs said, we see a more Year One-ish version of Commissioner Loeb and Detective Flass.  I'd love to see Babs and Harvey Dent, too, but a lot of this depends on just how young Gordon is supposed to be in the series and how many years it takes place before Batman's debut.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 27 Sep  2013, 00:06
I think you're getting your movies and comics mixed up, riddler.  Batman Begins had Gordon as the officer comforting young Bruce, not Year One.  Likewise, Silver Nemesis's TV idea is a prequel to The Dark Knight Returns comic, not The Dark Knight Rises.  (Btw, Silver Nemesis, Ted Levine was my choice for Gordon before Oldman was cast back in 2003/2004).

As for the show, I wouldn't be surprised if, as johnnygobbs said, we see a more Year One-ish version of Commissioner Loeb and Detective Flass.  I'd love to see Babs and Harvey Dent, too, but a lot of this depends on just how young Gordon is supposed to be in the series and how many years it takes place before Batman's debut.

Oh I apologize, I was going to correct him that Wayne spent 8 years away, now I see why he wrote 10.

Perhaps it could be gordon year one as a rookie?

The one thing about "Year One" that I really liked, was that Gordon was a good cop trying to fix a corrupt police force.
Have there been any cop shows that had that theme?

Year One isn't strictly canon anymore. I would like to see the lift it's queues from the comics now and try and fit into a larger on-screen universe with other movies / tv shows.

Too bad "Year One" is no longer cannon. Again, I really like the "good cop, corrupt system" angle.
It gives Gordon something to fight against so it doesn't become just another cop show.

Quote from: GBglide on Fri, 27 Sep  2013, 06:31
The one thing about "Year One" that I really liked, was that Gordon was a good cop trying to fix a corrupt police force.
Have there been any cop shows that had that theme?

I can't think of any but it does sound like a small-screen version of 'Serpico' with a potentially positive spin, which is no bad thing.

Quote from: GBglide on Fri, 27 Sep  2013, 06:31
The one thing about "Year One" that I really liked, was that Gordon was a good cop trying to fix a corrupt police force.
Have there been any cop shows that had that theme?

The Untouchables (1959-1963) is probably the most famous TV show about honest cops battling corruption. Oddly enough, there was also a short-lived Serpico TV series that ran from 1976-1977.


If you want a contemporary take on these themes, check out Jonathan Nolan's show Person of Interest, which recently began its third season. It takes a lot of cues from the Batman mythology and one of the main characters (Carter, played by Taraji Henson) is basically a female version of Jim Gordon. There's another character called Fusco (played by Kevin Chapman) who is very similar to Harvey Bullock.

Arrow does to an extent as well. For all his faults, chief Quentin is an honest cop. While police officers haven't been made out to be villains, it is clearly a corrupt city.

According to this, producers are looking for a ten year old boy to play Bruce Wayne, and the show is supposed to take place shortly after his parents are murdered.

Source: screencrush.com/fox-gotham-tv-series-batman-bruce-wayne-series-regular/‎ (http://screencrush.com/fox-gotham-tv-series-batman-bruce-wayne-series-regular/‎)

I don't think I'll bother watching this show. I know that Gordon will always be an important part of the Batman mythos, but having a show focused on him doesn't excite me one bit.

I prefer Fox shows, like 'The Walking Dead', to the standard identikit kid-orientated stuff we get from the CW so I'm tentatively looking forward to the show.  By and large WB is much better when it comes to films than Fox, especially Fox has now lost the 'Star Wars' franchise and screwed-up the 'Aliens' and 'Die Hard' golden gooses practically beyond repair, but I prefer Fox's style when it comes to TV.

I don't know what direction the show will go in if it takes place immediately after the death of the Waynes since this will presumably exclude a large portion of the characters that feature in the comic-books but maybe Fox will produce their own array of interesting characters to join Gordon and his family, assuming Barbara is even born by this stage, and presumably Commissioner Loeb and perhaps Flass could make an appearance.

Sounds pretty bad to me. I'll probably just skip this show entirely.

QuoteBack in September, it was announced that FOX had given a straight-to-series order to a new live-action television series entitled Gotham, which was purportedly an origin story for Commissioner Gordon. Many of us were left wondering how the network planned to do a comic-based TV show without a superhero at its center. What would distinguish Gotham from another cop/detective series?

At today's TCA (Television Critics Association) press tour Chairman of Entertainment at FOX Kevin Reilly revealed that this series would indeed function as an origin story for Batman.

"This is an origin story for young Bruce Wayne," Reilly said, promising that all of the classic Batman characters and villains would make an appearance, including: The Penguin, The Riddler, Commissioner Gordon, and The Joker. This is a series about "Gotham on the brink" he said, and "how they all became who they were, what events led up to these characters becoming Catwoman [and so on]." The Chairman described the series as "operatic" and "larger-than-life."

It will follow Bruce Wayne from childhood through his development into the Dark Night, with the final episode marking the moment when he puts on the cape. They're not certain what age young Bruce will be at this point, but Reilly estimates that he will be about 13 at the start of the series. "The actor will grow-up, if we do our job well he'll be a young man and ready [to be Batman] by the end," he said. "Which isn't to say we might not skip ahead."

Reilly followed up by saying that this would be a serialized show that will function on its own, separate from the Warner Brothers DC cinematic universe. "We own all the rights.That's what we're licencing," he said. "They brought us the entire franchise for a very healthy licence fee. We're not negotiating this piece meal. We have all of the underlying Batman rights for the entire franchise for this series."

He continued, saying, "That's what I like about this, it's not some sort of adjunct companion series. This is the Batman franchise, just backing it up. I think that gives it a real focus as to what the show is about and what stories we're telling."

There will be no connection to the Batman/Bruce Wayne that Ben Affleck will be introducing in Zack Snyder's Man of Steel 2, tentatively titled Batman vs. Superman. "Warner Brothers manages the entire franchise and its one of their top global franchises of all," Reilly said."So there will be an awareness of both and we'll have to coordinate when we're in the market place, but the productions are not piggy-backing off one another."

The series will be in the vein of the grittier tone that Christopher Nolan established in his Dark Knight trilogy, it will be very organic to that world, though Nolan will not have a direct connection to the production. We won't see Batman's cape and cowl till the series' conclusion, as mentioned, and it will be a slow reveal on the Supervillains alter-egos as well. "We're arcing to that," Reilly clarified. "We're not starting in that world where the villains are in costume. You see markers for it that are kind of delicious. You begin to see the evolution of the eccentricities that become those characters, but you really sort of arc there. We don't start out in capes and costumes."

When asked if there is a possibility that they may spinoff additional characters, Reilly said that he "certainly hopes so." Adding, "Do I think we'll peel out The Riddler? I don't. There's a large tapestry of characters to service over many years. So I hope we can just keep it on for a long, long run."

As the the number of episodes, Reilly jokes that, "Warner Brothers would like it to be 22 because they'd like as many as they can get," but no decisions have been made in regards to either the length of the series or a premiere date.

The show begins staffing shortly, with scripts expected to quickly following.

We will keep you updated as details on this series emerge.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/01/13/foxs-gotham-is-a-batman-origin-story-and-will-have-a-christopher-nolan-esque-tone?abthid=52d45abf2fa033fd53000037 (http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/01/13/foxs-gotham-is-a-batman-origin-story-and-will-have-a-christopher-nolan-esque-tone?abthid=52d45abf2fa033fd53000037)

It doesn't sound entirely terrible but there's a contradiction about what type of tone they're going for.  On one hand they want it to be 'operatic'.  On the other hand, they want it to have the 'gritty', organic' feel of Nolan's low-key movies.  I don't think they can do both.

Eh, I'll give it a look. But the concept doesn't excite me.

This makes a ton more sense to me than the "adventures of young Gordon" logline that was originally announced.  Sure, it's not Gotham Central or a full on Batman TV show, but making Bruce a regular part of the show is just good business sense in bringing in the audience and gives the show more legs.  If done right, this could be part Year One (on Gordon's end) and part The Man Who Falls on Bruce's end.

Of course, we'll just have to see how well they pull this off.  It's too soon to judge whether this will be great or will be a disaster.  I think the big red flag for some is the idea of bringing in the Rogues Gallery characters before Bruce becomes Batman, but even then, we don't know what they have planned for that.  Besides, changing the villains' origins from the comics hasn't always resulted in disaster either.  Notable examples: Jack Napier and BTAS's Mr. Freeze.  Hell, I'm sure we'll see Harvey Dent as Bruce's friend and yeah, we saw the "future enemy starts out as a friend" thing in Smallville, but a) I thought the Lex stuff was the best element of that show and b) if done right, it could be the most character exploration of Harvey Dent since the animated series, given the nature of the TV format.

I realize the term "operatic soap" induces eye-rolling, but I have serious doubts that this will be "Gotham High" or "Smallville with Bruce"- if that's what WB TV studios wanted, they would've easily sold the show in-house at the CW rather than pitched it to the Fox network, which has more adult-oriented material.  Looking forward to hearing more.

The part that excites me the most is seeing the various members of Batman's Rogues Gallery before they become super-villains.  One element we understandably don't get in all the movies is a true glimpse into the villains' back-stories/childhoods (Talia Al Ghul in 'TDKR' being a rare exception).  I'd love to see the roots of what makes them tick, including their various family backgrounds etc.  Also, dare I say it but I'm actually a little more excited by this idea than I am of 'Batman v Superman' as far as the onscreen Batman goes.

I actually agree, johnnygobbs.  While I'm willing to give Affleck a chance and see a new Batman on the big screen, my enthusiasm for BvS has waned a bit given that I was underwhelmed by MoS in the first place and haven't been too excited by the rumors that've swirled around for the past few months.  Of course, this could change in time when new info comes in.

But on the other hand, I think this show could have potential and will allow for more character development in Bruce and Gordon's origins than we got in, say, B89 and Batman Begins and will be able to juggle multiple Gotham characters far better than the movies could, simply due to the long form nature of the medium.  As I said, though, this is dependent on the writers' execution of the material, so we'll just have to see how it turns out.

It just sounds way too much like Smallville, now. We wont see Bruce put on the suit until the very last episode, and we see younger versions of the villains. And of course, the part where they said it'll be a soap opera(like Smallville), doesn't help my enthusiasm.

I guess if you enjoyed Smallville, I can see why you may be interested or excited, but for me, I hated that show and the concept. And so far, this sounds exactly like it. Just because its going to Fox, doesn't mean it'll automatically be an "adult oriented show". Plus, I hate how it's going to be a Nolanized version of Gotham.

I'll check it out when it comes out, but I wont be following the production of it that much, and I'm not that excited about it, as it is. Just too many red flags for me.

Overall I think this is a promising premise, whereas I get the impression with 'BvS' that Warner Bros is simply jumping on the 'Avengers' bandwagon and desperately trying to jump-start a team-movie ASAP.  They seem to be reacting to the market and the underwhelming response to 'Man of Steel' rather than devising a decent concept.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 14 Jan  2014, 20:48
Overall I think this is a promising premise, whereas I get the impression with 'BvS' that Warner Bros is simply jumping on the 'Avengers' bandwagon and desperately trying to jump-start a team-movie ASAP.  They seem to be reacting to the market and the underwhelming response to 'Man of Steel' rather than devising a decent concept.

But there's a difference here. With this new TV show, we know the concept that they're going with, an outline of who they'll use, how it'll look, and what tone(soap opera). With BvS, we just know who is going to be playing the heroes. Other than that, we don't know exactly what to expect. There's not much to go on.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue, 14 Jan  2014, 20:59

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 14 Jan  2014, 20:48
Overall I think this is a promising premise, whereas I get the impression with 'BvS' that Warner Bros is simply jumping on the 'Avengers' bandwagon and desperately trying to jump-start a team-movie ASAP.  They seem to be reacting to the market and the underwhelming response to 'Man of Steel' rather than devising a decent concept.

But there's a difference here. With this new TV show, we know the concept that they're going with, an outline of who they'll use, how it'll look, and what tone(soap opera). With BvS, we just know who is going to be playing the heroes. Other than that, we don't know exactly what to expect. There's not much to go on.

But that's the point.  The Fox TV show is starting off with a concept, whereas the 'Man of Steel' follow-up seems to be changing all the time.  One moment it was going to be a straight sequel to the Superman film, the next moment it's Batman versus Superman, and now it seems like a prelude to a full-blown JLA movie.  Nobody seems to have made up their mind what the sequel is meant to be about and they seem to be casting before they even have a concept

To be fair, the Fox show was initially announced as "Detective Jim Gordon: The Series."  Now, it's announced that a big part of the series is the origin of Bruce into Batman, so there's a shift in the series premise and what we initially thought of the project as well.  We'll just have to see how much of the show is Gordon and how much is Bruce.

There's not much to go on either project, really, but, other than the specificity of "Bruce won't become Batman until the end of the TV series," I think we know less about Gotham than about BvS, by virtue of the latter being a sequel.  We've seen MoS and have a template for the tone and vision they've got with Superman, as well as which cast members and characters are returning.  We at least know the type of Superman, Lois Lane, Perry White, and Martha Kent that we'll be seeing again.  We know BvS's approach to Affleck's Batman based off of multiple statements- he's the "weary, seasoned veteran Batman" with a bit of a Dark Knight Returns influence.  We know where they're filming for Gotham and Metropolis as well as when they'll start filming.  We know they're at least introducing Batman and Wonder Woman here and it's no secret WB wants this to help them lead up to a Justice League movie.

For all we know, BvS might be the greatest superhero movie of all time and Gotham might join Birds of Prey as one of the DC shows best left forgotten. 

Or the reverse might happen. 

Or they both might be terrible. 

Or, best case scenario, they'll both be great.

Perhaps if I'd liked 'MOS' more I'd have higher hopes for the sequel.  I don't despise 'MOS' but I still think it's a much weaker Superman movie than the 1978 Donner/Reeve one, or even its immediate sequel, and I find it hard to see where the franchise can take the character seeing as it seemed to jettison a lot of the double-life aspect that makes Clark Kent/Superman such a fascinating hero to begin with.

By contrast, a Fox, as opposed to CW, TV show dealing with the early career of Commissioner Gordon and moreover, the early lives of Batman's Rogues Gallery really excites me.  We might get a chance to see versions of Loeb and Flass that are much closer to their 'Batman Year One' counterparts than we saw in 'Batman Begins' where Loeb was merely incompetent rather than outright corrupt, and Flass was another fat Bullock/Eckhart clone as opposed to a relatively intimidating blonde, buzz-cut jock.  We might also finally meet Bullock on-screen, although it's probably way too early to expect Montoya to show up.  I also love the idea of dealing with Selina Kyle and Harvey Dent, among others, as children or young adults.  We might perhaps get a glimpse of the childhood abuse that made these characters into the criminal and/or tormented figures they became in the comic-books.  Perhaps we'll also see Roman Sionis a character who has yet to be portrayed onscreen as a bad-seed peer of Bruce Wayne.  The possibilities are endless and potentially allow for some very interesting angles into characters who have barely been covered onscreen before.

By contrast, I've never been all that excited by Batman in the JLA universe (even though I do like the JLA as a group and long to see Wonder Woman and the Flash brought to the big-screen, and hopefully a half-decent version of Green Lantern too).  Although I'm of the opinion that Nolan went too far in the 'gritty realism' direction and sadly omitted a lot of the literal colour and outlandishness that makes the comic-books (along with the Burton films and the animated series) so enjoyable I still believe that Batman works best in at least a semi-grounded, non-sci-fi setting that doesn't involve aliens or super-beings.  A bit of fantasy perhaps, but with the overall focus on OTT but still non-magical, credible villains.

Heh, I don't know why we're now comparing them? One will be a Batman movie, and one will be a show about Batman's characters, without ever seeing Batman(until the last episode).

They're not even close to being the same thing, IMO.

Why compare?  Simple.  They're both upcoming iterations of Bruce Wayne and his universe.  johnnygobbs is simply stating which one feels more exciting and interesting to him, based on the current information.

Take this with a grain of salt, but somebody claims to have read a rough draft for the pilot. And by the sounds of it, it's utterly terrible.

QuoteWhat We Learned from the Script for Gotham's First Episode

Gotham is one of this fall's most anticipated new TV shows: the story of Jim Gordon and Gotham City, years before Batman. We obtained what appears to be a draft of the first episode, although it could be fake or draft that will change a lot before filming. If the script is for real, then Gotham has some terrific potential — but it also may have much bigger issues than Batman being 12 years old.

Update: The script draft is dated Jan. 31, 2014 and labeled "Second Network Draft," so if it's real, it's not a particularly early draft. But that said, it's hard to judge a work in progress, and a lot can change before and during filming. With that out of the way, some spoilers ahead...

The pilot of Gotham is primarily about new detective James Gordon getting the tour of Gotham City from his new, morals-challenged partner Harvey Bullock, while they try to solve the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents (who is by all accounts is a 10 or 12 year old in the show). What at first appears to be a simple mugging turns into something much more, and you'd have to have never read a Batman comic or watched a crime procedural to not realize that corruption infests Gotham at all levels, not just on the streets.

The main problem with Gotham is that it's the most exposition-filled, perfunctory TV episode I've ever seen. Not only does Gotham want to introduce its entire cast, which it does without subtlety or any attempt at characterization, but it derails the entirety of the show, because Gordon and Bullock have to stop everywhere and introduce everybody while ostensibly trying to solve the crime. It's not the least common problem for a pilot to have, but Gotham is over-stuffed even before the script has to spend 20 minutes just spelling out the Batman-ness of it all.

And boy, does Gotham want you to know it's a Batman show, despite its lack of Batman. The show clearly has no faith in its premise, because it simply screams everything that eventually becomes a part of the Batman mythos, as if it knows people would rather be watching a show about regular Batman and his villains. It's like it's concerned that it will only be seen by people who have never seen a Batman movie or read a Batman comic before. Those people might appreciate the fact that whenever young henchman Oswald Cobblepot shows up, someone mentions "He looks like a penguin" every single time, but for everyone who even has a passing knowledge of Bat-lore, it's like being bludgeoned to death with the Bat-signal.

That's the sort of thing that can be overcome in later episodes. Gotham's second problem is Gordon and Bullock, who somehow manage to twist the rich comics characters into a standard "naïve young rookie cop partnered with jaded, disillusioned older cop who cut corners." Bullock, played by the excellent Donal Logue, reads pretty much like every cop character Logue has ever played, which means he's a bit more of a charming slacker than the gruff, bitter Bullock we know from the comics and cartoons, which is fine.

But young Jim Gordon is painfully naïve. I understand Gotham wants to contrast Gordon's idealism with the grim realities of Gotham City, but it does so at the cost of making its lead character often look like a moron. Gordon is supposed to have grown up in Gotham, and yet he's constantly boggled at every single crime that happens. Gordon does awaken somewhat to Gotham's grim realities by the end of the pilot, so hopefully later episodes will feature a more savvy Gordon, one who can navigate the treachery of Gotham's underworld and politics.

My biggest worry, though, is the dialogue. The script was written by Bruno Heller, co-creator of The Mentalist and writer of many episodes of HBO's Rome series, so he has some chops. But Heller seems to want to include a touch of '30s gangster-speak in Gotham, and it stretches the show's already thin suspension-of-disbelief way past the breaking point — unless you regularly call people "mopes," "loonybirds," "skell huggers, "sugar bunnies," or "a cool glass of milk."

Honestly, I'm still not sold on a Batman show where Batman is 12, because even if the show gets to the point where Bruce Wayne does become Batman, most of his enemies will be pushing 40. But I don't have a problem with any of Gotham's Batman-ness (other than how they shoehorn in and awkwardly introduce 'em all). Gotham's real problems are its uninspired writing, stereotypical characters, and most egregiously, its dialogue. I hate to say it, but this might be a job for 12-year-old Superman.

Want more plots details and specifics? Here's the SPOILERS section:

• Here's the proto-villains introduced in the pilot: A 14-year-old Catwoman, already cat-burglering and associating with cats; the Riddler, who is working for the GCPD as a coroner and who tries to present all pertinent case information as riddles; the Penguin, a mid-level thug, who as mentioned earlier is repeatedly referred to as looking like a penguin.

• Additionally, Gordon and Bullock enter a run-down apartment where a little girl named Ivy lives with her sh*tty parents and, according to the script, a lot of houseplants. Could this perhaps be Poison Ivy? Well, in the comics, Poison Ivy's real name is Pamela Isley. Is Gotham giving us a clever feint here? Probably not.

• There's also a comedian telling jokes in gangster Fish Mooney's club, jokes straight out of Reader's Digest circa 1942. Mooney laughs hysterically, and, just in case those feelings were somehow opaque to the audiences, she tells the comedian she likes him. A lot. Repeatedly.

• Major Crimes detective Renee Montoya used to date Gordon's fiancée, because LESBIANS. And for bonus points, Bullock even calls her a dyke. Fun!

• Alfred appears to have a crazy cockney accent, and I swear to god this is real dialogue from the script:

ALFRED: Oi! Master Bruce! Stop playing silly buggers! Get your bloody arse down off there!
• One more line for the road from Gordon's fiancée:

BARBARA (blithely): Jim, you are the cleverest, bravest, goodest man in Gotham.

Source: http://io9.com/what-we-learned-from-the-script-for-gothams-first-epi-1530515272 (http://io9.com/what-we-learned-from-the-script-for-gothams-first-epi-1530515272)

Oh dear!  That does sound alarming.

My biggest concern is that the overall premise has so much potential.  If they bugger it up there's little chance of someone getting the chance to properly explore the characters' backstories later on.

I think there should be a rule instituted in Hollywood that states that anyone who messes up an important property like Batman/Superman/Spider-Man etc doesn't get a chance to work in the industry ever again.  That's it.  You had a rare chance nobody else had and you blew it.  Now F*** Off and find another industry to debase with your lack of talent.

Quote'Gotham' TV Series Synopsis, Logo, & New Story Details Revealed
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.screenrant.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FGotham-TV-Show-Fox-Logo.jpg&hash=344fa7c2f214f80d35b64a3eee0bc99469c96917)

It's been one week since Gotham announced the casting of its young Bruce Wayne (and Selina Kyle) – leaving Bat-fans to speculate on how big a role the pre-Caped Crusader will play in FOX's prequel storyline. The topic was a major point of contention on this week's Screen Rant Underground podcast – where we debated whether or not young Master Wayne (played by David Mazouz) will eventually steal the series' spotlight from main protagonist Detective James Gordon (Ben McKenzie).

Gotham has been pitched as an origin tale for the city's iconic villains and do-good coppers – not a "Batman story." As a result, certain fans expect Bruce Wayne's involvement to be minor – while others believe that we'll see a much more hands-on version of the teenage billionaire (especially as he gets older and stronger in future seasons). Of course, the show doesn't premiere until fall 2014 – meaning potential viewers will have to wait awhile for answers. In the meantime, Fox has released a lengthy synopsis that provides a glimpse at what we can expect – as well as how the characters of Gordon and Wayne will be utilized.

The synopsis is lengthy, so we've pulled out key highlights for those that are still getting up to speed on Gotham news – as well as anyone who just doesn't want to read the entire thing.

Check out the highlights below followed by our analysis of what the new story details could mean for Gotham (or simply click to the second page of this post to read the full synopsis).

• Gotham is an "origin story of the great DC Comics super villains and vigilantes" – and the plot synopsis confirms the show plans to cover the "circumstances" that create Catwoman, The Penguin, The Riddler, Two-Face and The Joker
• Gordon's father used to serve Gotham as District Attorney – and the rookie detective, who is engaged to Barbara Kean, "hopes to restore the city back to the pure version he remembers it was as a kid."
• Partnered with the "brash, but shrewd police legend" Harvey Bullock – Gordon is assigned to investigate the murders of Thomas and Martha Wayne. In the process, Gordon meets the sole survivor: Bruce Wayne.
• Bruce Wayne is described as a hauntingly intense twelve-year-old son – toward whom Gordon feels an "inexplicable kinship."
• Following Gordon as he rises through the ranks at the GCPD, Gotham will also "focus on the unlikely friendship Gordon forms with the young heir to the Wayne fortune." Additionally, the plot synopsis suggests the show will chronicle "the birth of one of the most popular super heroes of our time."

While the Penguin and Catwoman have been cast already, it's interesting to see the synopsis outright name drop Riddler, Joker and Two-Face as potential inclusions so early in the process. Obviously, Gotham is a prequel series, meaning that the show could incorporate both mainline Bat-baddies – by depicting the men they were before transforming into full-on super villains. Previously, we heard insider reports suggesting the Joker and the Riddler would be featured at some point in the show; yet, this is the first official news we're hearing of Two-Face. Still, a storyline involving a youthful Harvey Dent who works with Gordon to lock-up criminals (prior to becoming one himself) is rife with potential.

Source: http://screenrant.com/gotham-tv-show-synopsis-logo/ (http://screenrant.com/gotham-tv-show-synopsis-logo/)

I like the title card, very faithful Gotham City's iconic imagery. Of course, I doubt the show's cinematography will resemble anything like that.

As for the rest of the show- it's a must-miss for me.

Set pics have been released online:

McKenzie as Gordon here looks exactly the same as he did in Southland. Notice he has no mustache yet.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2014%2F03%2F17%2Farticle-2583043-1C5ED1A600000578-824_634x710.jpg&hash=5f456c542ad8091005f8955045feb71e1cc18171)

While this schmuck is supposed to be Penguin. People online apparently love. I for one wouldn't have a clue it was supposed to be Penguin if it didn't have the caption underneath.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2014%2F03%2F17%2Farticle-2583043-1C60279900000578-790_634x781.jpg&hash=2209248d86edd84de22240f73e6df50b748e87f6)

And here's a glimpse of what the streets of Gotham might look like.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2014%2F03%2F17%2Farticle-2583043-1C6029FE00000578-592_634x474.jpg&hash=a0d1b5d32722abd42721d67f80f44540b6316ffe)

Anticipation for the show overall? Still very low, for me at least.

Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2583043/Ben-McKenzie-fights-crime-one-wall-time-Detective-James-Gordon-filming-TV-Batman-prequel-Gotham-Penguin-pops-visit-too.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2583043/Ben-McKenzie-fights-crime-one-wall-time-Detective-James-Gordon-filming-TV-Batman-prequel-Gotham-Penguin-pops-visit-too.html)

I'm willing to give the show a chance. When it premieres, I'll be there watching.

Deadline's reporting David Zayas has been cast as Boss Sal Maroni: http://www.deadline.com/2014/08/gotham-batman-prequel-series-adds-mobster-sal-maroni-david-zayas-portrays/

QuoteGotham fails to impress

- Legions Of Gotham

Oh really? 

88% of professional critics and 100% of Rotten Tomatoes users argue otherwise:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/gotham/ (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/gotham/)

SOLID!

Set ups for 4 villains already, I think Oswalds might be the most intriguing although next week will likely feature Selina Kyle.

Quote from: riddler on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 01:04
SOLID!

Set ups for 4 villains already, I think Oswalds might be the most intriguing although next week will likely feature Selina Kyle.

We don't get it in the UK until October unfortunately.  :(

PS:  The critics' rating on RT has gone up!  :)

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 22 Sep  2014, 19:13

QuoteGotham fails to impress

- Legions Of Gotham

Oh really? 

88% of professional critics and 100% of Rotten Tomatoes users argue otherwise:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/gotham/ (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/gotham/)

But Smallville has a 100% score on Rotten Tomatoes, and you don't seem to care for that show. ;

Sorry for the little dig, but I've become way too fed up with people using critic reviews and Rotten Tomatoes whenever it's convenient to them.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 02:24

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 22 Sep  2014, 19:13

QuoteGotham fails to impress

- Legions Of Gotham

Oh really? 

88% of professional critics and 100% of Rotten Tomatoes users argue otherwise:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/gotham/ (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/gotham/)

But Smallville has a 100% score on Rotten Tomatoes, and you don't seem to care for that show. ;

Sorry for the little dig, but I've become way too fed up with people using critic reviews and Rotten Tomatoes whenever it's convenient to them.

I get the love for 'Smallville'.  It's just not my cup of tea overall.  But that's more because of the way it's style has now become a formula for other TV superhero shows.  I rather enjoyed the first series of 'Smallville' but I didn't have the patience for its 'freak of the week' story structure so even though I regard it quite highly I just gave up on it.

Anyway, my point is that 'Gotham' seems to be well-regarded.  That doesn't mean it's objectively good or that everyone here will like it, but I'm glad that it appears to be a critical hit so far.  It's certainly better than the alternative.  ;)

Enjoyed the pilot. I didn't overly nitpick problems because most of them are 'pilot typical.' Your straight players are talented, but stiff and scripted, not exactly yet comfortable in the roles. The music was obviously not budgeted. Overly synthetic when in full swing and too over the top. I expect with time the bigger 'theme' cues will get better. I trust Graeme Revell. Chemistry is off since nobody is familiar with one another yet. Shots are either too basic or too experimental at times. Trouble with tonality and speed. These are things I commonly associate with a pilot. It's why I like to be late to the party. I prefer to jump on board a show that is already been running for at least a season or three. The world and it's rules are completely defined. It's taught. This first episode is among the stories that once you're a fan will quickly become a chore to watch three seasons in. Not because it's bad. It isn't, but you get it already.

The only real complaint I have is Barbara Kean. I understand that every show has to have one, because there is that segment of every audience that will never function without 'wanna hump hump' stories. It had better not become a crutch and the future Mrs. Gordon will have to show me something better than flavor of the week.

All in all, I'm tuning in next week.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 14:54
The only real complaint I have is Barbara Kean. I understand that every show has to have one, because there is that segment of every audience that will never function without 'wanna hump hump' stories. It had better not become a crutch and the future Mrs. Gordon will have to show me something better than flavor of the week.

I've never heard that expression before.  What do you mean by it?

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 17:40

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 14:54
The only real complaint I have is Barbara Kean. I understand that every show has to have one, because there is that segment of every audience that will never function without 'wanna hump hump' stories. It had better not become a crutch and the future Mrs. Gordon will have to show me something better than flavor of the week.

I've never heard that expression before.  What do you mean by it?

Sex based stories. I shamelessly stole the expression from As Good As it Gets.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 19:23

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 17:40

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 14:54
The only real complaint I have is Barbara Kean. I understand that every show has to have one, because there is that segment of every audience that will never function without 'wanna hump hump' stories. It had better not become a crutch and the future Mrs. Gordon will have to show me something better than flavor of the week.

I've never heard that expression before.  What do you mean by it?

Sex based stories. I shamelessly stole the expression from As Good As it Gets.

Okay.  I like that film but I don't remember the expression.

So you don't have a problem with the character of Barbara Kean, just her subplot?

Overall, I'm impressed and already anticipating the next episode. Well done. I'm about to go into more detail, so spoiler alert.

This show pretty much proves that Batman is still interesting without Batman. While Gordon seems almost too perfect of a person, he's nonetheless compelling and interesting to watch. Bulloch is perfect and works well with the young Gordon.

The villains were well done, but it also came off as a little cheesy when they were just thrown in there (portrayals and mannerisms still seemed accurate, though). Riddler and Ivy didn't really have a purpose yet; they could have been replaced by any normal person in their situations. It was interesting to see a young Catwoman, but it felt weird having her present during the Wayne murders. Penguin was probably the best of the bunch. Despite being physically lacking for the role, you could still identify the character.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 23:28

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 19:23

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 17:40

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 23 Sep  2014, 14:54
The only real complaint I have is Barbara Kean. I understand that every show has to have one, because there is that segment of every audience that will never function without 'wanna hump hump' stories. It had better not become a crutch and the future Mrs. Gordon will have to show me something better than flavor of the week.

I've never heard that expression before.  What do you mean by it?

Sex based stories. I shamelessly stole the expression from As Good As it Gets.

Okay.  I like that film but I don't remember the expression.

So you don't have a problem with the character of Barbara Kean, just her subplot?

Actually, now that I've seen it again, I don't think I have a problem with her sex based plot specifically.  I'm...concerned in a very broad way. It may be far too early to tell, and I don't want to peg it right out of the gate, but I'm getting the sense that Kean is there just to complicate matters. Naturally, complications make for tense and interesting plots, but I'm getting the sense...how shall I put it...that she's going to suffer from Rachel Dawes syndrome. I use Rachel because she's from another Batman property, but it describes an occurrence I notice more and more. Rachel Dawes was not a person. She didn't breath air or drink water. She was a plot device, designed to catalyze disaster. It's the difference between 'Oh my God, something just happened!' and 'we need something to happen right...here.' I feel like she exposed the writing process. She served the needs of the plot to a point where she would behave contrary to the reality of herself and the universe so the story would have an impact later on. It's somehow...telegraphed. You look to her for every 'angle.' I feel like Kean will amount to no better. Whenever the story needs to be turned upside down, they'll feed her whatever line or action they need for the furtherance of the storyline.

"Jim, I'm an ex con."

"Jim, I had an affair with Oswald/Fish/Montoya/Bullock/etc."

"Jim, I'm an alien/robot/potted plant."

"Jim, I'm really three different people."

I know this is all an incredible supposition. She had maybe 5 minutes of screen time and that's a lot to take from it. I've just watched lots of TV. It was just a feeling, and really, rereading my post, I think for now I should just shut my mouth and see what happens. :-X

I'm so pleased to see, judging by the reviews and audience rating, that my high expectations for this show were completely founded!  :)

I always said a 'Batman show without Batman' could work...but oh ye of little faith and all that.

Just saw the first episode and I must say it's very solid. Very interesting characters and the potential is almost boundless. Alot of people may be a bit skeptical to introduce so many characters in a pilot but I think we will see them fleshed out well in the following episodes.

I certainly hope though that we see glimpses of Bruce developing that drive and strength to eventually become Batman. It'll be nice to see him even developing some crime solving/detective techniques and anonymously handing them off to Gordon.

Fish Mooney and Penguin are two of the most intriguing along with Gordon, Bullock, Bruce and Alfred. The Wayne murders go much deeper than appears and I hope this series can go a long way.

Here's to Gotham!!

Quote from: Grissom on Sat, 27 Sep  2014, 17:33
I certainly hope though that we see glimpses of Bruce developing that drive and strength to eventually become Batman.

I think he has the drive already, did you see how he put Alfred in his place? He seemed like a mini Batman!

Caught the pilot and thought it was ok. Can't help but feel that maybe the Tim McCanlies's Bruce Wayne pilot was a better take on the prequel idea.

Gordon was alright, but the character could be in danger of being a little too on the "annoyingly moral" side of things (like Rick in the first couple Walking Dead seasons), but I liked what he did at the pier. Also, I get why he doesn't have the mustache, but couldn't they at least have given Ben McKenzie glasses?  :P

I like where they're going with Oswald, as well as Bruce and Alfred, though I didn't get the emotional impact I had hoped for in the teaser compared to the version in Batman Begins, possibly 'cause we hadn't seen enough of Thomas and Martha prior to that. (But hey, at least Martha had more lines than previous live action incarnations!)

Still hate the idea of Edward Nygma as the forensics guy during this time and the performance was annoying. Gonna take a lot to win me over.

Really liked John Doman's Falcone, just wished he has the Brando mustache, haha. He seems more layered than the Wilkinson version, which is natural since they have more time to flesh him out in a season than in a subplot in a two hour movie.

In the meantime, a season trailer has been released:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzUJDmjBPuQ

Still liking Oswald, Bruce & Alfred, and Falcone. Looks like we'll be seeing Victor Zsasz for sure and possibly Scarecrow and Professor Pyg.
Not sure how I feel about these guys being full fledged villains already, but in Zsasz and Pyg's case, they might as well do this with the obscure villains and develop the more well known ones, like Penguin, Catwoman, and Riddler, for later.

There is a Selina Kyle featurette where the young actress playing her saying Michelle Pfeiffer is her definitive Catwoman. She's not the only one who thinks she shares a resemblance with her either.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sLG5lqzk00&feature=youtu.be&list=UU2zkeSg_I8EsNpx3nA_OYSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sLG5lqzk00&feature=youtu.be&list=UU2zkeSg_I8EsNpx3nA_OYSw)

Checked out the 2 episodes of GOTHAM that's been aired so far, and though it's a little rough around the edges, I found the show overall highly entertaining, and one that I've gotten more out of than any episode I've seen of AOS so far. Definitely alot of potential to be had.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 29 Sep  2014, 21:02
Still liking Oswald, Bruce & Alfred, and Falcone. Looks like we'll be seeing Victor Zsasz for sure and possibly Scarecrow and Professor Pyg.

Not sure how I feel about these guys being full fledged villains already, but in Zsasz and Pyg's case, they might as well do this with the obscure villains and develop the more well known ones, like Penguin, Catwoman, and Riddler, for later.

Not surprising really. Considering the show's timeline predates Batman making an appearance for a number of years, it was pretty evident from the first announcement that the show was going to rely a bit on Batman's rogues gallery in order to give the show a buzz and, of course, garner more interest. Much like how Smallville pretty much incorporated nearly every Superman character/villain into the show prior to Clark being fully realized as "Superman". In the grand scheme of things, I'm not wholeheartedly supportive of this notion, but am willing to roll with it, and I honestly can't say I'm not interested in seeing how GOTHAM introduces some of the lesser known villains like Zsasz/Pyg/Dollmaker/ect. Hopefully the interpretations/portrayals should be fun.

I really like Falcone though. I think they nailed his casting.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 30 Sep  2014, 04:31
There is a Selina Kyle featurette where the young actress playing her saying Michelle Pfeiffer is her definitive Catwoman. She's not the only one who thinks she shares a resemblance with her either.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sLG5lqzk00&feature=youtu.be&list=UU2zkeSg_I8EsNpx3nA_OYSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sLG5lqzk00&feature=youtu.be&list=UU2zkeSg_I8EsNpx3nA_OYSw)

But which one's which? ???




They even styled her hair like Pfeiffer's in BR. If Christian Bale is a clone of James Brolin (which he clearly is), then Bicondova is surely cloned from Pfeiffer.

I think she's doing quite a great job on the show. Looking forward to see how she finally connects (sort of) with Bruce and how important she may be to various storylines.

Two episodes later- at this point, I'm watching for Bruce, Alfred, Selina, Falcone, and Oswald Cobblepot.

My biggest issue with the show is, unfortunately, all the GCPD stuff, which have the primary stories.

Gordon is destined to fail in his mission, so his attempts/failures at always doing the right thing make him seem like he's all bark and no bite. The procedural elements don't feel fresh (there are a bunch of better mystery procedural shows right now on CBS) nor do the investigators feel very smart (Gordon and Bullock seriously didn't consider how the victims of the Balloon Man would get down?). The corruption of the city is played so on the nose, it comes across as juvenile.

And it just feels like all the GCPD character dynamics from the comics have been reduced to common TV cop tropes in this version. Gordon and Bullock are the standard "by the book cop paired with the cop who doesn't play by the rules." Gordon's relationship with Essen is now just a boss and a subordinate. Crispus Allen and Montoya might as well be interchangeable in their scenes together, as they ask tough cop questions. It's great to have the other characters realized in live action, but it feels like some depth got lost in translation.

I have faith that the show is going to course correct, much like how Arrow improved once they cut the voiceover and turned Oliver from a loner into a leader of a team (and brought Slade Wilson onto the island) and how Agents of SHIELD improved once they got HYDRA into the picture, in my opinion. But we'll just have to see.

As a side note, it feels like we've got some missed opportunities here for injecting other comic book characters that would've been more interested than what we got. For example, I would've loved it if, instead of the Balloon Man, it was The Reaper/Judson Caspian. Yes, Year Two is a controversial story and not the greatest Batman comic of all time, but it at least would've been something from the comics and they were exploring pre-Batman vigilantes anyway. His presence would make a lot more sense in this show than a bunch of the other characters. Hell, the actor was even bald like Judson Caspian.

I was also wondering if "Lazlo" the waiter was going to be the Balloon Man and that this was a precursor to Professor Pyg, since Pyg's real name is Lazlo and the Balloon Man wore that mask in the beginning (which made people think it'd be him), but alas...

"Gotham" debuts on British TV tonight! Yayy!

Any British posters here looking forward to it?

Latest casting reveals that Anthony Carrigan is playing Victor Zsasz and Mekia Cox is playing Leslie Thompkins.

With more comic book characters coming in, I'm still hoping the show improves, but I'm already losing interest and my friends have stopped watching.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue, 14 Oct  2014, 22:00
With more comic book characters coming in, I'm still hoping the show improves, but I'm already losing interest and my friends have stopped watching.

I haven't been watching the show, but a friend of mine watched the pilot and decided not to pursue the show any further. He explains that focusing on Gordon as the main character is a mistake because he can't stop the crime in Gotham if Bruce is going to become Batman in the end. He argues that no matter what happens, Gordon is destined to fail.

That was the same impression I got from this show, and it's one of the main reasons I have no interest in it. Now of course, I'll admit that the episodes have sound like they've focused (or will focus) on villains like the Penguin, but I don't know how long can the show go on for if it stays as it is if it without jumping forward years later, from season to season. That being said, if Agents of SHIELD can be renewed for at least a second season, then there's no reason why this show can't.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue, 14 Oct  2014, 22:00
Latest casting reveals that Anthony Carrigan is playing Victor Zsasz and Mekia Cox is playing Leslie Thompkins.

I love this casting (good on the show-runners for casting a beautiful young black woman as Dr Leslie Thompkins - we need more positive black female role-models on screen, especially with Fish Moody representing a negative female black presence). 

And for what it's worth I'm really stoked about this show, although I do think the story, acting and art direction is far better than the direction and editing.

The ending of tonight's episode got to me. Alfred comes into the room, finally crosses a threshold, sits across from Bruce and starts helping him. Love that Bruce has to clean up the company, and I love that Bruce is just a miniature version of who he will be. I was always saw him that way post mortem. Never liked the whining, shiftless troublemaker that has to be fathered by ninjas. Discipline was never something I pictured him needing. Only the means. I know that isn't always the populist Batman thinking, but I like it anyway.

Last night's episode was definitely the strongest yet and the one before it was an improvement, too.

I let out a "Finally!" when Viper was confirmed as a prototype for Venom (I was figuring that or Hugo Strange's Monster Men serum, but wasn't expecting them to actually confirm either way in the show) as it felt that the two previous episodes had opportunities to tie the villains into the comics but didn't.

Was amused that Falcone turns into a nervous teenage boy around a pretty face, but it adds to his character. This is probably the best take on the Gotham mob yet.

Loved that Bruce finally got out of the house for a bit and is a mini-adult. Curious if they'll bring a young Lucius Fox into this at some point.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Wed, 15 Oct  2014, 13:41

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue, 14 Oct  2014, 22:00
Latest casting reveals that Anthony Carrigan is playing Victor Zsasz and Mekia Cox is playing Leslie Thompkins.

I love this casting (good on the show-runners for casting a beautiful young black woman as Dr Leslie Thompkins - we need more positive black female role-models on screen, especially with Fish Moody representing a negative female black presence). 

And for what it's worth I'm really stoked about this show, although I do think the story, acting and art direction is far better than the direction and editing.

Now this is strange.

Despite Cox being listed as Thompkins in the upcoming episode "Penguin's Umbrella," Morena Baccarin was just announced on Deadline as playing the same character:
http://www.ksitetv.com/gotham/gotham-spoilers-penguins-umbrella-images/43577

QuoteGuest Cast: Richard Kind as Mayor James, Drew Powell as Butch Gilzean, Anthony Carrigan as Victor Zsaszs, Mekia Cox as Dr. Leslie Thompkins, David Zayas as Maroni, Jeremy Davidson as Nikolai, Danny Mastrogiorgio and Mackenzie Leigh as Liza.

http://deadline.com/2014/10/morena-baccarin-cast-gotham-857628/

QuoteShe will play Dr. Leslie Thompkins, a gifted and dedicated physician who was a friend of Bruce Wayne's parents, Thomas and Martha. She is determined to use her skills to aid Gotham's most in need, which currently means working at the newly opened Arkham Asylum's Home for the Criminally Insane. In addition to her medical skills, her coolness under pressure will serve her well as she finds herself drawn close to James Gordon and into more and more dangerous waters.

Baccarin as Thompkins seems to be official.  Does that mean Mekia Cox is not taking part at all?

I still like this casting.  A beautiful young Latin woman is not the obvious choice for Dr Leslie Thompkins (she won't be the typical WASP goodie), even though a black actress would have been an even more progressive choice and would make more sense in view of the name 'Thompkins', which doesn't sound very Italian (Morena Baccarin's ancestry).

This blog pretty much captures my feelings with Gotham.

http://whitmanpioneer.com/arts/2014/10/22/gotham-disappointing-for-batman-lovers-and-casual-fans-alike/

I don't know how it is on American tv but here in Britain the schedules are usually total garbage. Endless Simon Cowell shows and reality programmes well into their fourteenth year. So a brand spanking new live action Batman series? Oh yes I'll have that please for the rest of that rubbish anyday!

Very much enjoying the show. It kinda bothers me how people keep discussing it's potential longevity. I couldn't give a damn myself if the show truly lasts only two seasons. The problem with that is what exactly? I live for the here and now, not ten years down the road. I don't want this thing to become a decade long Smallville. Too many things these days are planned for years on end. Let's have the days were we take things one at a time return for once.

http://badassdigest.com/2014/10/07/gotham-is-the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-batman-since-joel-schumacher/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_287348 (http://badassdigest.com/2014/10/07/gotham-is-the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-batman-since-joel-schumacher/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_287348)

Thoughts? :-\

You must excuse me. I won't be going into great depths about that article review you posted off another site. I've had my fill of geeky/whingy fan rants so much I even gave up buying expensive mags like Sci-Fi Now and SFX where it runs rampant lol

I will however cull this one quotation that the writer felt would be a better focus of the show:

"Fill the rest of the show with police business and mafia intrigue. Go into the mafia families more. Have young Jim Gordon be an optimistic cop who maybe sides with a young, hopeful politician to clean up Gotham, and have the show be about the tragedy of that politician coming to power and betraying his friend and the city and becoming corrupt".

This entire concept is my whole issue with the recent Batman films in that they stopped being BATMAN FILMS and became about corrupt old Gotham City. Instead of the glory days of cool Batmissile's blasting through narrow side streets we were treated to endless police and military procedural sequences. The inverse of Star Wars you might say which once swapped battling X-Wing fighter sequences for lengthy chit chat's in the Senate or Jedi Council!

I have totally had my fill of it all now. Let's have Batman shows and movies doing actual Batman things again. Leave the police and army guys to Michael Mann or whoever. With the Batman villains being the supporting characters of Gotham it just suddenly feels a whole lot more fun.

Quote from: Cobblepot4Mayor on Sun, 26 Oct  2014, 21:59
You must excuse me. I won't be going into great depths about that article review you posted off another site. I've had my fill of geeky/whingy fan rants so much I even gave up buying expensive mags like Sci-Fi Now and SFX where it runs rampant lol

I will however cull this one quotation that the writer felt would be a better focus of the show:

"Fill the rest of the show with police business and mafia intrigue. Go into the mafia families more. Have young Jim Gordon be an optimistic cop who maybe sides with a young, hopeful politician to clean up Gotham, and have the show be about the tragedy of that politician coming to power and betraying his friend and the city and becoming corrupt".

This entire concept is my whole issue with the recent Batman films in that they stopped being BATMAN FILMS and became about corrupt old Gotham City. Instead of the glory days of cool Batmissile's blasting through narrow side streets we were treated to endless police and military procedural sequences. The inverse of Star Wars you might say which once swapped battling X-Wing fighter sequences for lengthy chit chat's in the Senate or Jedi Council!

I have totally had my fill of it all now. Let's have Batman shows and movies doing actual Batman things again. Leave the police and army guys to Michael Mann or whoever. With the Batman villains being the supporting characters of Gotham it just suddenly feels a whole lot more fun.

I must admit that's actually a great post C4M. Too many people are obsessed with the law and order aspect of Batman nowadays that they neglect the main character altogether. It's really odd because Batman is supposed to be the reason we watch the films in the first place.

It's a bit ironic though that Gotham doesn't have Bruce Wayne as the main character. ;) But I'll says this: even though the show's concept still doesn't intrigue me, I'd rather it focuses on the villains instead of routine political stuff like that article suggested.

Very well put,    Cobblepot4Mayor, I agree!

Thought this was awesome: Ben McKenzie dressed up as the classic Jim Gordon for Halloween. Could be the closest we ever see to him with the iconic look:
http://comicbook.com/2014/11/02/gotham-star-ben-mckenzie-was-jim-gordon----with-the-mustache-and/

This episode left a lot to talk about. Overall, I'm in praise (spoilers ahead).

All of the sudden, Gordon was no longer untouchable. It seemed the idealistic Gordon always found a way out of everything, but that wasn't so this time around. The second he took a bullet, I honestly wasn't sure how things were going to turn out. I mean, this episode had a few moments where the tension was real (Falcone claiming to have Barbara hostage was another).

Victor Zsasz was another great character, I'm glad they didn't jam him into an earlier episode just to have a familiar face. I even like how he had his own henchwomen, that was a nice touch.

While I've always liked the episodes of Penguin's rise to power, the only thing I had trouble buying was that Penguin fully predicted that Gordon would spare him, and that he would go on to be a snitch for Falcone while posing as a snitch for Maroni. Though I guess at this point, we sort of can see Gordon as a predictably good character. It was cool to look back at the negotiation between Maroni and Falcone with this information. Penguin was valuable to both sides, unbeknownst to Maroni. The Penguin was not in any form of danger at any point.

This was definitely the best episode yet. They dialed back on the police procedural tropes and cutesy foreshadowing and upped the character journeys and plot development. Hope it continues like this for the rest of the series.

Last episode provided a tough act to follow, so I wasn't surprised that this one didn't quite reach that level. Frankly, the pieces just didn't come together like they did last episode, and the different narratives felt disconnected.

The Bullock and Gordon story was the quality we've come to expect; we had a good mystery and great action scenes. We also explored the rest of Gordon's coworkers as well. This part was great.

But now the exploration of Barbara was pretty bad. She just doesn't do much, and is only seen in the apartment. Despite gaining an understanding for Jim's work, she then creates more needless drama by the end.

Bruce and Alfred's story is... interesting. Bruce goes back to school, and apparently there's a group of kids who tend to pick on kids whose parents died. I know bullying is real, but for the kid's first day back? That's pretty damn harsh. I can't decide if the resolution to this was terrible advice, or absolutely awesome - meet him in person, and beat the snot out of him (egged on by Alfred). Dang.

Meanwhile, Catwoman and Nygma still feel forced, and their purpose hasn't been fully realized.

Agreed about Barbara. They really have no clue what to do with her than just have her be the damsel in distress trope or the "cop's wife who's frustrated that he doesn't come home" trope.

Think it's interesting that we had Sionis and Tommy Elliot in the same episode. The kid seemed to be more like Roman Sionis to me than Tommy Elliot simply because Bruce and Tommy were childhood best friends in the comics whereas Bruce and Roman were a little less friendly. Might've been too coincidental for Roman to be Bruce's bully while (presumably) his dad is the villain of the episode, though.

Tommy Elliot wasn't too overt about being a future super villain, just a regular bully. Though I guess in this case, it helps to establish something earlier.

After the revealing of Sionis' mask, I'm pretty sure that he was meant to be Black Mask. Though who knows with these name changes (i.e. Ivy Pepper). I read critics actually complained about his mask and sword collection. I thought that was cool, he was the closest we got to a fully-formed super villain yet, and they went for some authenticity appearance-wise. I liked that he was so upfront about his violent nature when talking to Gordon. You get the feeling that he was one of those people who was hiding in plain sight because they were too big to be taken down by the police; for once, I thought they could've extended this a few episodes.

I'm glad we finally got to see Black Mask in a live action incarnation. It appears though that he'll be going to prison and maybe come out just in time for Batman, as he begins his war on crime.

Great episode, Gotham has got to be one of the best shows this fall and along with The Flash and Arrow, DC is gaining some serious ground on the tv market.

Maybe his prison sentence will lead to his company's financial ruin and the Wayne Industries buyout. Or maybe he has enough money to the point where he'll never see the inside of a jail cell. Either way, I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of him.

This episode was very much so a step in the right direction. At the sacrifice of some action, we get a plot that finally seems wholly connected. I like how the Bruce and Selina scenes remind us that Bruce is still a kid after all. I'm really looking forward to the finale after this.

With Episode "Lovecraft", I'm glad we finally get to see Bruce learning his way and confronting danger. The dynamic between him and Selina was very good and I'm beginning to see tremendous potential with Alfred. Great job and looking forward to the other episodes in this season.

Harvey Dent's character is a bit of a problem for me, the acting seems a bit forced and the split personality scenes int he previous episode was unfortunately sort of comical. It should be developed more though, so we'll see.

MINOR SPOILERS:
The latest episode description says that we'll be seeing some familiar Year One characters with Dash Mihok as Detective Flass and Peter Scolari as Commissioner Loeb.

Mihok's a good choice for Flass. Not familiar with Scolari, but it looks like they're going away from the comic book aesthetic again since the actor looks thinner than the comic book version.

Ugh, Jim just can't catch a break with Barbara. While this episode provided another great mystery story, the romance portions just move way too fast.

Seriously. The Barbara storyline is probably the show's weakest point. I laughed out loud in the scene where Ivy picked up the phone.

Either the best or second best episode so far (Penguin's Umbrella is still up there for me). We really got our bang for our buck. The mob wars had a startling turning point, with Falcone and Penguin gaining ground. Just when we thought Falcone was getting milder, we see firsthand what he's capable of.

The Electrocutioner was also well done. More of a prototype to what's seen in the comics, but I like what it's building up to. I actually appreciate the down-to-earth approach to the villains here more than the Nolan universe; in the comics, Gotham only started encountering colorfully-clad super villains a bit into Batman's career. Before, it was the simple gangsters and mad scientists.

And finally, Gordon and Thompkins works. I don't know how they want the audience to feel about it, but they actually have chemistry.

Definitely, it seems that the best episodes further the Gordon vs. corrupt GCPD story and make major developments in the Gotham mob characters (and feature Zsasz), while giving us nice glimpses into future Batman villains.

As for Gordon-Thompkins, I would've liked a little more development before the kiss but yes, even against canon, I'd rather see more of them together. As I said in the influences thread, I kinda wish they had Gordon single from the beginning and Leslie as part of the show from the start.

I'd be fine with Barbara if she had more of a purpose. The scene with her parents almost seemed like it was about to reveal that she was related to someone we knew...but then it turned out, they were just the standard rich parents and the scene served no purpose to the rest of the episode's story.

Another great episode that really took things forward. I liked that Gordon's slowly no longer a misfit at the police department. A character that actually has some surprisingly depth over the series is Butch. Though by the looks of it, he's as good as gone.

http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/02/02/wait-so-now-the-joker-s-immortal-2651704

Scott Snyder recently revised the Joker's origins to say that he's an immortal who's been around since before Bruce was even born.

I'm curious if the Gotham version will line up with this. We're already seeing kind of a synergy of the comics and the TV shows, with the series adopting the New 52 take on the Scarecrow's father as well as the emphasis on the Dollmaker.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed,  4 Feb  2015, 05:58
http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/02/02/wait-so-now-the-joker-s-immortal-2651704

Scott Snyder recently revised the Joker's origins to say that he's an immortal who's been around since before Bruce was even born.

I'm curious if the Gotham version will line up with this. We're already seeing kind of a synergy of the comics and the TV shows, with the series adopting the New 52 take on the Scarecrow's father as well as the emphasis on the Dollmaker.

I'd hate the Joker to be portrayed as literally immortal.  I truly hope the show doesn't go down that overly fantastical avenue.  I don't want Nolan-style 'realism' but the Joker is already such a fascinating and exciting character; he doesn't need to be turned into a fantastical monster.

Sounds to me like they're mixing Joker and Ra's al Ghul with that.

Yeah, not really feeling that one. I always liked Joker's interesting relationship with Batman and how they can be similar and vastly different at the same time. One aspect is that both are just normal guys with no superpowers. When continuing a beloved series, writers need to understand that not everything needs to be explained. It's like how it's explained that Jason Voorhees has a special regenerative powers, when the viewer kinda already got the message that he can't die, period.

Hell, if that's actually the case for the new Joker, then I fully expect a sequel with Jack Nicholson  ;D

Anyways, we've been teased with both the Red Hood and Joker with seemingly separate announcements. I believe they said that they'd introduce Joker earlier AFTER the Red Hood announcement was made. So I think the Red Hood story will probably be in line with The Killing Joke - it's just a cover with various people taking the mantle.

Meanwhile, I have no idea how the Joker story will be factored in. It's uncontested that Batman is crucial to his origin story, so it's safe to say it'll be pre-chemical bath Jack. The series is going a little too fast with A-list villains, with them either being a lot older than usual, or having the first incarnation be a parent/older brother. Though we saw firsthand that Joker can work while being ~20 years older than Bruce, so this is one instance where I'm not too worried.

Quote from: Slash Man on Thu,  5 Feb  2015, 00:44
Yeah, not really feeling that one. I always liked Joker's interesting relationship with Batman and how they can be similar and vastly different at the same time. One aspect is that both are just normal guys with no superpowers. When continuing a beloved series, writers need to understand that not everything needs to be explained. It's like how it's explained that Jason Voorhees has a special regenerative powers, when the viewer kinda already got the message that he can't die, period.

I'm not feeling it either.

I don't know how people can attack 'Batman Returns' for being too fantastical when a mutated baby and surviving being pushed out of a window via several awnings is actually quite plausible, especially when compared to the New 52 version of the Joker.  I really hope this version doesn't cross-over to "Gotham" which has so far managed to embrace the larger-than-life quality of the Burton films without veering into overly supernatural or science-fiction territory, especially since the Joker is already such a scary, powerful character without a hokey immortality origin (in fact what makes the Joker so brilliant is that despite appearing to be, by all accounts a mortal human-being, he somehow always manages to bounce back and plague Batman (like Ledger's Joker says Batman and him "are destined to this forever").

There's alot I don't really 'feel' since the Nu52 reboot, and the whole immortality thing with the Joker is just on par for the course. Have to hand it to Snyder though, it's a slick way on his part of introducing a possible Joker origin without making it absolutely concrete since it's coming from a character that would be deemed a suspect source, but agree that it's pretty hokey and is more elseworldsy than something even remotely cannon. Plus, there's the whole Red Hood Gang issue since it was very much alluded that Joker was infact apart of that, pre-bleach job of course, and all in Snyder's run to boot. So whatever.

These days, a strict continuity means less and less to me, which is pretty much why I'm pretty much OK with DC's recent plan of stories not being completely adherent to a strict continuity. Nu52, and event fatigue has certainly played a part in my current opinion. Which might have been different 4-5 years ago. Plus I kinda dig those Earth One books from DC, and the Season One volumes from Marvel, so there's that too.... 

Hands-down, the cringiest moment was on last night's episode... I honestly hope Fish survives at this point. I didn't like her much at the beginning (a good villain, though), but she's been through so much, I'm now hoping she gets away.

I liked the introduction of the Red Hood gang, very much in line with what we're used to. I believe this is the first time we've actually seen an origin behind it. I like how it's open-ended; I can easily see the mantle taking on a legendary status by the time Batman comes onto the scene.

Finally, the Barbara ordeal is pretty amusing at this point. Even I didn't predict what would happen: she finds Selina and Ivy, and finds out Jim was telling the truth, and gets mad at Jim after he moved on after she left him high and dry. Meanwhile, she's completely cool with Selina and Ivy.

http://screencrush.com/gotham-season-2-clayface-mad-hatter-hugo-strange-joker/

Lots more for Season 2. I think Strange and Clayface would make great down-to-Earth villains to explore in their early stages. Why Clayface? Originally, he was just an extraordinary master of disguise. We can probably see his backstory as a successful actor at this point, and the beginning of his downfall.

Might just be me, but I think the show's starting to get a bit stale. The finale just didn't do it for me... Spoilers ahead.

Fish is a good character, but they keep toying with killing her off and it seems they can never decide. Once again, we're left with an ambiguous end for Fish. At this point, it's becoming noticeable. Selina just seems shoehorned into the mix. Nothing in her character leading up to this justifies her becoming a mob henchman.

So here's my view of it all; Jim Gordon should stay the main character. He's the only one that really had an interesting backstory in any of the comics and other media. There's a reason that Batman only had a page dedicated to his backstory back during his original run; Batman really only came to prominence once he became Batman! I think that Batman Begins shows the extent of what should be shown of Bruce's backstory while still keeping a good flow.

It is interesting to see the re-imagining of Batman's backstory, but young Bruce can't carry the show. Gordon is the only central character that we can follow and get a lot out of.

Quote from: Slash Man on Sat,  9 May  2015, 00:37
Might just be me, but I think the show's starting to get a bit stale. The finale just didn't do it for me... Spoilers ahead.

Fish is a good character, but they keep toying with killing her off and it seems they can never decide. Once again, we're left with an ambiguous end for Fish. At this point, it's becoming noticeable. Selina just seems shoehorned into the mix. Nothing in her character leading up to this justifies her becoming a mob henchman.

So here's my view of it all; Jim Gordon should stay the main character. He's the only one that really had an interesting backstory in any of the comics and other media. There's a reason that Batman only had a page dedicated to his backstory back during his original run; Batman really only came to prominence once he became Batman! I think that Batman Begins shows the extent of what should be shown of Bruce's backstory while still keeping a good flow.

It is interesting to see the re-imagining of Batman's backstory, but young Bruce can't carry the show. Gordon is the only central character that we can follow and get a lot out of.

Although the finale hasn't yet screened in the UK, I couldn't agree more with your conclusions.  :)

Gordon should remain the central focus of the show.  "Gotham" only really drags whenever we're following Bruce and his already convoluted pre-Batman origins.  Plus, the showrunners should devise long-term narratives for each of their central characters.  The fact that the first season was extended by a number of episodes mid-run shows.  It would be much easier if future seasons are allocated a specific number of episodes and contained coherent narrative stories with beginnings, middles and ends in which characters weren't going round in circles, but actually developed from episode to episode (i.e. enough of these episodes where a character is killed, comes back, and is killed again, or alternatively keeps changing alliance from one character to another and back again without any clear logical reasoning).

I agree that Barbara is being one of the weaker points of this series. It's kind of pointless because we know they will probably have to get together with Jim eventually. I kind of wish they didnt have them separate for so long since that plot point should happen later on after the children are born.

I thought the flying graysons were also brought in prematurely. Should Dick even be born yet at this stage? Probably not since he's the same age as the currently unborn Barbara Jr.

It would be completely illogical to make anyone other than Gordon become the main character. It's fine to have episodes focus on other characters but Gordon is basically Gotham's white knight until Batman arrives.

I wonder if Harvey Dent will become more of a prominent character? Based on the last episode it seems Edward Nygma might?

I know the Jokers origins have conflicted but I like the notion of him appearing shorly after Batman emerges; basically I like how Batman is the response to all the crime of gotham and the Joker is the response to Batman; basically Batman is what the good people of Gotham need and the Joker is what the bad people of gotham needs.

I wouldn't mind seeing Selina Kyle leave for a while. The actress is fine but it's too soon for her to get too close to Bruce. I actually think Bruce himself is getting too much screentime. Alfred is poorly portrayed and Bruces plot is almost embarassing; they're turning him into Batman too quick and it looks silly seeing a 12 year old take on that persona.

David Mazouz says that Season 2 will see Bruce Wayne begin developing his dual persona as he's on his way into becoming  Batman. Also, the Joker and Mr. Freeze's origins will be explored.

https://youtu.be/iKaqPL6maVs (https://youtu.be/iKaqPL6maVs)

Source: http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/gotham-season-2-spoilers-new-synopsis-teases-the-joker-and-mr-freeze-drama/

Now I haven't given this show a real chance because it was a concept that just didn't interest me. I thought it came across as name-dropping villains for the sake of capitalizing a pop icon like Batman. But if the above news is happening, I'd be ready to give it a chance. It would be good to see how a young Bruce Wayne will achieve his destiny into becoming Batman. Sure, it's very unlikely he'll ever suit up on the show, but I'd be keen if it means his desire into becoming a crime-fighter extends to his dedication to putting his mind to the test and reaching the peak of mental ability, and outsmart people by playing the famous facade. Batman used to be thought of as a costumed Sherlock Holmes, right? I'd like to see this show give us a bit of Bruce becoming that, since the films to date haven't actually explored that area.

I saw that scene of Gordon interrogating the alleged future Joker in the first season a couple of months back, and I thought he was brilliant. I wasn't too thrilled about the showrunners saying they might use random lunatics to make the audience guess who might be the Joker. But if that same guy is returning, and he is playing the future Joker, count me in.

QuoteBatman used to be thought of as a costumed Sherlock Holmes, right? I'd like to see this show give us a bit of Bruce becoming that, since the films to date haven't actually explored that area.

Hear, hear!  :)

it makes more sense having Bruce as a detective at this stage. It's fine to have him practice martial arts and what not but it will be embarrassing seeing a 13 year old even entertain the notion of fighting grown criminals.

To be honest I would prefer if they strayed away from Bruce and Alfred more. For one thing I find Alfred to be poorly portrayed but it's just not captivating seeing young bruce wayne now that the initial shock over his parents. The scenes of him going and talking to the board of directors was too silly to take seriously. Even Selina is an interesting character but I don't know if I like the notion of her and Bruce being chlidhood chums.

Having freeze could be interesting especially since his origin hasn't been overly explained on screen. He's similar to Harvey Dent in that he was an intelligent successful member of society before tragedy took place. And they can have Nora Freeze as a character. If they get good acting, this could be a captivating storyline (Nora getting sick, Victor getting desperate).

Looks Cameron Monaghan (Jerome Valeska) IS returning to play pre-Joker for Season 2 after all. This is what Bruce Heller said:

Quote
We're going to find out how the hell Jerome, the proto-Joker we met earlier in this season, connects with the Joker as people know him. That's the big focus of the beginning of the second season. We're going to tell the story of how the Joker came to be.

Source: http://www.themarysue.com/gotham-s2-joker/

And here are on-set pics of pre-Joker committing a crime.
Source: http://www.justjared.com/2015/07/08/cameron-monaghan-pictured-as-the-joker-on-gotham-set/

People will complain that "Joker's origin should never be explored" but there were tons of comics in the last seventy years that have explored his backstory. I see nothing wrong for this show to have its own interpretation. And personally, I'm more fascinated with finding out what led villains into that dark path instead of making them "evil for the sake of being evil".

I'm a little disappointed to be honest.

I liked the idea of teasing the Joker's origin.  It seems like the showrunners don't have the courage of their convictions and are playing things as they go along; never a good sign.

This Joker, Batman's most formidable enemy, can't be that big a threat if he has already been apprehended by Commissioner Gordon.  Plus his background story, the son of a promiscuous circus performer, isn't really that interesting or creepy for one of the all-time greatest villains.

I hope by proto-Joker the showrunners don't mean the actual Joker, but simply a forerunner.  But having been apparently one of the few people who actually enjoyed the first season I despair at some of the decisions the showrunners are now making.  If a fan like myself doesn't like the direction the show is going in (and the sad fact is, the first season alienated a lot of viewers if the stream of vitriol across the net is anything to go by) I honestly can't see this show lasting much longer than two seasons.

QuoteThis Joker, Batman's most formidable enemy, can't be that big a threat if he has already been apprehended by Commissioner Gordon.

I'd say this version of Bruce isn't that big of a threat to criminals either when he could barely defend himself against a schoolyard bully. I don't mind pre-Joker getting captured a decade before he becomes the supervillain we know.

I do agree, though, that Jerome's story isn't the most interesting backstory for Joker. I think the strength of Cameron Monaghan's performance carried that episode and will probably carry his future appearances.

Gotham has given us the first live action versions of Bullock, Crispus Allen, Montoya, Leslie Thompkins, Hush, and The Electrocutioner. This upcoming season looks to be giving us more with original character Theo Galavan, played by James Frain:

QuoteWith Fish Mooney out of the picture (at least for now), Gotham will be introducing a new formidable villainous duo in Season 2: Theo Galavan and his sister, Tabitha, who will go on to become DC Comics super-villain Tigress. James Frain (The Tudors, True Blood) has been cast in one of the two new regular roles on the Fox series. He will play billionaire industrialist Theo Galavan. A new Gotham arrival, Galavan is the savior the city has been waiting for — he is sexy, heroic, and lovingly devoted to his sister Tabitha (yet to be cast). But behind Galavan's altruism is a centuries-old vendetta. Galavan and Tabitha (aka Tigress) will take chaos and violence to a new level in order to bleed Gotham. Their plan will lead to the creation of new villains... and the destruction of others.

http://deadline.com/2015/06/gotham-james-frain-cast-villain-tigress-brother-1201454198/

His sister, Tabitha Galavan, alias Tigress (though in the comics, Tigress is Artemis Crock):

QuoteJessica Lucas (Evil Dead, Pompeii) has joined the cast of Gotham as new regular Tabitha Galavan, aka Tigress, sister of Theo Galavan (James Frain) and half of the new villainous duo that will be introduced in Season 2 of the Fox series. Tigress is the lead enforcer for her brother Theo, the billionaire industrialist hell bent on taking over Gotham. Sexy, violent, and toting a bullwhip, she's the opposite of her cold and calculating brother – deriving a sensual pleasure from the violence and mayhem she's tasked with.

http://deadline.com/2015/06/jessica-lucas-cast-tigress-gotham-james-frain-1201459337/

And a young Silver St. Cloud, played by Natalie Alyn Lind, who'll be serving as another love interest for Bruce and have ties to the Galavans:

QuoteEW can exclusively reveal that The Goldbergs star Natalie Alyn Lind has joined Gotham's second season as Silver St. Cloud, who's described as an ethereal beauty with the pristine manners of a Gotham debutante. Add in the fact that she lost her parents at a young age, and it's understandable why she and Bruce end up drawn to each other.

And as Bruce's friend — and love interest — Silver introduces Bruce to her uncle Theo Galavan, who just so happens to be a billionaire philanthropist who's running for Mayor. Needless to say, Bruce finds a father figure in Theo, but as for Silver, well, she's described as having a heart beating with dark intent. In other words, she's probably not someone Bruce wants to fall for.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/07/17/gotham-natalie-alyn-lind-silver-st-cloud

Still, I'm more in anticipation for who's playing the young Victor Fries and Hugo Strange...

Isn't Silver a sympathetic character in the comic-books?  I like that the show seems to be retaining her privileged, socialite background but since when was she a dark character or an orphan?

To be honest, Silver kinda lacks depth in the comics, in my opinion, beyond a socialite girl who falls for Bruce and figures out his secret identity. I don't mind the new backstory, but given her connections to the Galavans, I have a feeling that they will end things in a way that we won't really be able to picture her as a love interest when Bruce is an adult. Just my hunch.

Also curious if she'll stay blonde for the role or if they'll actually give her the silver hair in the comics.

Michael Chiklis has joined the cast as a character named Captain Nathaniel Barnes:

http://tvline.com/2015/07/21/michael-chiklis-gotham-cast-captain-barnes-season-2/

QuoteWho's Barnes, exactly? Per Gotham's producers, he "lands on the GCPD like a tornado, ripping out the dead wood of Gotham's police force. He is a law and order zealot; unafraid of making enemies – on either side of the law. For Gordon (Ben McKenzie), Barnes is a hero and a mentor, someone with whom he can share the burden of heroism. Captain Barnes proves himself to be a strong ally to Gordon... but one day he will make an equally powerful enemy."

I must say that I'm finding it odd how these shows have kept adding new characters like Barnes, Galavan, Bunderslaw, and Fish Mooney or altering comic characters like Tigress, Barbara Kean, Sarah Essen, and Leslie Thompkins to the point where they might as well BE original characters.

This latest news makes me think that Chiklis could've been very interesting as a version of Gillian Loeb instead, who starts out as an ally before becoming Gordon's enemy, as opposed to the current version of Loeb who is just a corrupt bureaucrat from day 1.

Anyone who remembers Michael Chiklis as a corrupt cop in The Shield will know that he'll have no problems nailing the role here. He'll make a good antagonist for Gordon.

No doubt.

There are two new TV spots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THbnfSuAwK0
I'm going to guess that this is where Thomas Wayne hid secret documents about Wayne Enterprises, intending to expose them, which could've been the reason why he was killed.

This one shows more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFjQtb9ws0Q
It looks like Gordon may be demoted (again), given a shot of him in uniform threatening Loeb.
Too soon for Chiklis footage yet, but we do get glimpses of Theo Galavan and Tigress (with the whip), as well as glimpses of returns from Mr. Zsasz, Jerome, and Richard Sionis (in the same shot as Jerome if you pause it).

http://deadline.com/2015/08/gotham-casts-leo-fitzpatrick-recurring-season-2-villain-1201498329/
Another character has been added:

QuoteThe Wire alum Leo Fitzpatrick is set for recurring arc on the second season of Fox's Batman prequel series Gotham.

Season 2 will focus on "The Rise of the Villains" and Fitzpatrick's character will certainly fall under that category. He'll play Joe Pike, the leader of a notorious gang of arsonists known as the Pike Brothers. Series stars David Mazouz, Robin Lord Taylor, Camren Bicondova, Cory Michael Smith, Erin Richards, Morena Baccarin, Donal Logue and Sean Pertwee will all return for the second go-round.

I'm curious if the "arsonists" lead into the creation of Firefly.

I'm also wondering if Joe Pike or the Pike Brothers are meant as adaptations of Mad Dog Pike, from the Two-Face origin Eye of the Beholder storyline. Since Maroni is dead now, perhaps the Pikes will be the one destined to scar Harvey?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBah_uo9rY0

It looks like Cameron Monaghan's Jerome (supposedly the young Joker) will play a bigger role in Season 2 than we thought, unless this footage of him is all from one episode.

UPDATED: It looks like the show is taking a cue from Batman #1 in having Jerome disguise himself in police uniform (some people like i09 have been comparing this to The Dark Knight, but Jerome looks way closer to the comic panel than Ledger did, since he doesn't have the ugly scars).

It also hints that he'll be getting mentorship/advice from Theo Galavan's character, who is hinted to be a major DC villain:

Quote"Theo Galavan arrives in Gotham as a prodigal son returning," Cannon says. "He comes from a very wealthy family with ancient roots in the building and foundation of Gotham. It takes a while for us to understand why he came back to Gotham and what his plan is, but it's an insidious one, obviously. He's a little bit like the Great Gatsby and Dracula coming to town with money and influence and charm and trying to bend to Gotham to serve him."

But it sounds like Theo has much more up his sleeve. In fact, Cannon says that Theo is the "origins of a very famous DC villain" -- one who will rely on other villains to help him achieve his goals.

"This season is about how one man will unleash and empower the villains and make them understand that they are more powerful than the people fighting against them," Cannon says. "They are the pioneers for Gotham. They are the ones who will change things because with chaos and destruction is the only way you can build. You can't rebuild a city without first destroying it."

http://www.tvguide.com/news/mega-buzz-gotham-james-frain-rise-of-the-villains/

Fans are speculating Ra's Al Ghul and while that would make sense with the description, but I'd honestly prefer a rest from that character after Nolan's trilogy and Arrow (along with the fact that Theo himself does not seem to share any visible similarities to Ra's at the moment).

If I had to, I'd throw my vote in for Theo turning into Professor Hugo Strange. Hugo Strange sounds like an alias and his look could easily be taken on by someone who wants to be in disguise (what if Theo has to go into hiding, so he grows the beard, shaves his head, and puts on the glasses). Strange is one of the first Batman villains and has always been older than Bruce, so the age difference makes sense. He was also brought back in a major way in the comics around the same time that Silver St. Cloud was introduced. And in terms of creating villains, Strange created the Monster Men, which were basically the precursors to Bane.

Has it been stated yet if this show shares the same universe as Arrow and the Shield? It's implied it takes place in modern times so it certainly could as the Green Arrow is typically older than Batman. If so, it isn't logical to use Ras Al Ghul unless it's the same actor.

Quote from: riddler on Sun, 13 Sep  2015, 16:22
Has it been stated yet if this show shares the same universe as Arrow and the Shield? It's implied it takes place in modern times so it certainly could as the Green Arrow is typically older than Batman. If so, it isn't logical to use Ras Al Ghul unless it's the same actor.

No, it's a completely separate universe.  The Arrow and Flash TV shows are produced and screened by different networks to Gotham, thus we could see an entirely different version of R'as on the latter.

A bit off-topic but I wish the "DC Extended Universe" did not mean just Man of Steel and the planned movies but at least some of the TV shows. as well. That way it would feel a lot like the actual comics.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/11/04/gotham-has-gone-crazy-and-its-finally-pretty-good/

While I enjoyed the first season, I have to agree here that season 2 is noticeably better. Much more cohesive plot, less reliance on mainstream villains, and a better exploration of the main cast. Every re-occurring character now feels important, and no one feels simply like scenery (this problem occurred with Barbara, Ed, and Cat last season).

The show also isn't afraid to tread into some of the less "realistic" elements and simply let itself feel more like a comic. We've already got a supervillain team-up: once with Galavan, and now with Riddler and Penguin. The show finally found its balance.

The mid-season finale was pretty spectacular. We had a great team-up at the end with Gordon, Bullock, Penguin, Alfred, and even Lucius. Selina may have been a little too much.

I agree that this has been a much stronger season. Gordon's dark side has made him more interesting. Bruce's storyline ties into the plot more. And the Galavans were much more interesting than Fish Mooney's war with other gangsters.

Young Bruce is also starting to feel more like the boy who will grow up to be Batman. When he tricked Silver into confessing and walked away in his black coat, I thought, "That's him. That's the future Batman." His sentiment that he wasn't afraid of death because he'd see his parents again was also a great moment.

I enjoyed the finale, but wasn't a fan of Gordon killing Galavan. First off, I thought it was anticlimactic considering Galavan's abilities. I loved the reveal in the previous episode that Galavan was a physical threat on top of that (and was potentially trained through The System if we're going by comic canon on the Order of St. Dumas). But once the Order was taken out, he went down like a chump.

Second of all, it's tough for me to see this Gordon become an ally of Batman's after he did that. Yes, Gordon's killed people in the show and in the comics, but usually in self defense (like in the season opener). I'm curious if, in this continuity, Bruce will find out about Gordon killing Galavan and how he'll feel about it.

I also think Penguin should be going after Tabitha Galavan as well considering she was the one who actually stabbed his mother. Oswald's revenge can't be over.

As for Mr. Freeze, I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that he's already Mr. Freeze. I am, however, really looking forward to Hugo Strange.

Looking back, this could have easily gone the "Nolan-lite" route, a visually realistic (read: mundane) extension of the Nolan movies focusing on police work and city corruption. It would have been universally praised for being nothing but another competent cop show with a few character names borrowed from the Batman mythos. That would have been the Easy Mode.

Instead they chose Mania and came up with... this. Others have articulated much better why Gotham works for being pulpy and quirky, or how great Robin Lord Taylor is as the Penguin, I'll just say that this is easily the most fun I had with a non-videogame Batman product since 2008.

Only thing is... where is the Batman? Sometimes I just wish it was an actual Batman show. I don't think it's too silly an idea to throw in a few brief flashforwards with the man Bruce is going to become. This Gotham clearly takes place in a pulpy world (like the Burton films) and not the real world, they can play around with the timeline a bit.

A lot of people have brought up the flashforward idea. I'm not against it but I think it's unlikely. The cast on this show is a weird mix of those who are obviously young versions of the characters (i.e. Gordon, Leslie, Alfred, Penguin, all the teenagers) and those who would fit right into their roles if Batman were around (i.e. Logue's Bullock,  Doman's Falcone, B.D. Wong's Hugo Strange. Smith's Nygma).

Personally, I think the perfect ending to the show would be McKenzie's Gordon in the glasses, mustache, and brown coat standing on a rooftop and talking to Batman. When Batman takes off, Gordon says something that indicates he knows it's Bruce under there.

In the meantime, here's a preview of the next episode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb--Ld7uEcI

My personal prediction is that Bruce will find out that Matches Malone didn't kill his parents. Let's remember that he got the man's name from an unreliable source. How the hell would Theo Galavan know who actually killed his parents?

I think this is more complicated that Bruce thinks and Malone turns out to be innocent of the crime. He could then be an occasional criminal informant for Bruce and Selina throughout the show. This will help explain the convenience of Galavan knowing who killed the Waynes as well as give a reason why future Bruce would adopt Matches Malone as a disguise in the future (though this Matches would be pretty old by the time Bruce becomes Batman. Maybe he'll try to be Matches Malone Jr.).

It's more likely, though, that they'll go the New 52 route with Bruce having the gun on Malone (like he did with Chill) but deciding not to go through with it and to do something else with his life.

Great news.  It's been renewed for a third season.  :)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/368187-gotham-season-3-given-the-green-light-by-fox#/slide/1 (http://www.superherohype.com/news/368187-gotham-season-3-given-the-green-light-by-fox#/slide/1)

With any luck we might see the likes of The Mad Hatter, Killer Croc, Man-Bat and others before they turned bad.

Pretty big reference to Mad Hatter last episode; Hugo Strange implanting characters in his patients' minds (with him reading a quote form Alice's Adventures in Wonderland).

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/08/08/gotham-season-3-cast-photos-include-first-look-at-new-poison-ivy

Keeps getting weirder

Gotham First Look: Benedict Samuel's Mad Hatter (http://www.ew.com/article/2016/08/11/gotham-mad-hatter-benedict-samuel-photo)

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ew.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Ftout_image_612x380%2Fpublic%2Fi%2F2016%2F08%2F08%2Fgotham-303_scn6_jm0381.jpg%3Fitok%3DJm2ULcrK&hash=9c61f0682b5c66e01abdb571d22861c00ac9ea7a) (http://www.ew.com/article/2016/08/11/gotham-mad-hatter-benedict-samuel-photo)

Love the look. Then again, it'd be tough to mess up the Hatter's wardrobe.

Also, in that link they hint that the Penguin runs for mayor. Seems like they've still got some Returns influences coming.

http://zap2it.com/2016/08/gotham-season-3-jerome-return-cult-of-joker-cameron-monaghan/

Jerome's coming back, too. Makes sense, though. After bringing back so many people, they might as well bring back the one character that fans seem most adamant about. Seems like this is another instance of the producers changing around their plans to be more in tune with what the fans want. The other example I can think of is Barbara. Plus, Penguin became a breakout character after fans were so receptive to Robin Lord Taylor's portrayal. Currently, the only thing I see that fans are making a big deal about is that they want Fish Mooney gone.

Quote"I don't think superheroes work very well on TV," Bruno Heller, showrunner of Fox drama Gotham, told the Edinburgh Television Festival on Thursday. "Probably because of the costume thing."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/edinburgh-tv-festival-gotham-showrunner-922848

Sigh...

Gonna be honest, the show has really turned into a trainwreck. I'm not sure how casual viewers are taking it, but I know that fans continue to be utterly baffled again and again.

The saddest part is the amazing talent behind it all. Most of the cast is just phenomenal. It's just that the writing takes the show to some really strange places. Diverging from the source has the potential to be exciting, but lately, that hasn't been doing any favors. Another amazing feat is that there's even less at stake when a character dies here than in the comics. The action barely compensates anymore.

In the beginning, what got a lot of people excited about the show in the first place was the fact that it was a story about Gordon. Some coverage of Bruce was mandatory, but there is a reason why his story only started when he became Batman. There was no story otherwise, and that's pretty apparent.

sh*t, Donal Logue is desperately pleading for help on Twitter to find his teenage son.

Source: http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/gotham-actor-donal-logue-says-his-child-is-missing-w490134

The Mutant Gang Leader has been sighted on set.

Behold, Gotham's Bane.

Some images have leaked online showing the final look of the Gotham Joker.

Disclosure: I went on the record long ago for not caring about this show. I've never seen an episode.

But one thing I've always wanted from a toxically-bleached incarnation of the Joker is burns. If his skin has been bleached, it makes sense to me in a comic booky fuzzy science kind of way that his skin would be burned, at least a little bit. And I've never understood why we haven't seen more of that.

So my compliments to whoever is making these decisions with Gotham. This is a step in the right direction if you ask me.

I couldn't care less about Gotham either, but full credit to them for doing something different. This is the first live action Joker who really looks as if he was immersed in chemical waste.

An image has appeared online supposedly showing Batman's costume from the Gotham finale. It's from the same Reddit page that leaked the early Joker pics, so it could be legit. Or it could just as easily be fake. Judge for yourselves.

I could buy that. Looks just BB'ish enough to be recognizably Batman but just rough enough to be a very primitive Batman outfit.

Eh.

But I hope Gotham fans love it.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 11 Mar  2019, 17:34
An image has appeared online supposedly showing Batman's costume from the Gotham finale. It's from the same Reddit page that leaked the early Joker pics, so it could be legit. Or it could just as easily be fake. Judge for yourselves.

(https://i.redd.it/260c3wd93dl21.jpg)

I haven't been a Gotham viewer, but I like the look of this.

The TV style aesthetic looks to be a positive here considering the show's concept.

Would it have killed them to make a David Mazzucchelli inspired suit? Cosplayers pull it off without the budget of a television production. It's just going to be for one scene and I'm sure they can find one buff guy that would look great in the grey tights. I'm getting tired of all of this heavy armor aesthetic and this would be the appropriate way to see a true Year One suit in live action.

Quote from: Kamdan on Sun, 24 Mar  2019, 14:59
Would it have killed them to make a David Mazzucchelli inspired suit? Cosplayers pull it off without the budget of a television production. It's jusy going to be for one scene and I'm sure they can find one buff guy that would look great in the grey tights. I'm getting tired of all of this heavy armor aesthetic and this would be the appropriate way to see a true Year One suit in live action.

Sadly no live action Batman film or TV show produced by Warner Bros has ever even tried accurately adapting the classic comic book costume. It's as if the film and television industry regard the armoured suit as the default version. They've been using variations of the same thing now since 1989. After 30 years of rubber muscles and armour plating, it's high time we had something new.

And by 'new' I really mean old.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 28 Mar  2019, 21:18

(https://i.postimg.cc/C5VdWyP7/New-Picture.png)

I know it's just a statue and it's impossible for someone to be in that great of shape, but that's exactly what I'd like to see. It can't be done for a series of films because actors struggle with maintaining their weight at just the right consistency to look good in their suits. We all saw how Affleck ballooned up during the reshoots for Justice League and how Bale looked a bit chubby in Batman Begins (Look at the "Can you drive stick?" scene for an example). For this brief moment, they could have made a lasting impact with something iconic from the comics, but decided to go cheap instead. What a loss.