What does everyone feel about him and about the fact that he was absent from the Burton and Nolan Batfilms?
My favorite Robin remains Dick Grayson and my favorite Robin actor is Burt Ward (though I like the animated Robin a lot, and Chris O'Donnell wasn't all that bad either)
A solo Batman movie can be any of a number of different things. You can take a lot of approaches. The minute you throw Robin into the mix though, it becomes very specifically a comic book. Sadly, there's a breed of director out there who still isn't comfortable with the idea of doing that genre. The lack of Robin in Burton's movies can be explained away easily enough but his absence from Nolan's movies was one of two key signs for me that maybe Nolan shouldn't direct these types of films (the other being Christian Bale credited only as "Bruce Wayne" in TDK and TDKRises).
There's an argument that Robin just doesn't work on film. I think we should wait for someone else to actually attempt it before we make that judgment. Sure, there are certain situations a young Robin can't be in without facing a PG-13 rating... but does a PG-13 rating really stop anybody from seeing stuff anymore? I doubt it. Whatever comes next, it'd be welcome if they include Robin in some form or another.
He worked well enough for me in Batman Forever and Batman:the Movie.
He wasn't in it a lot but Arkham City portrayed him well. I think he has a bad rap in live action because aside from Batman Forever, every incarnation of him was silly.
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Fri, 12 Jul 2013, 03:41
What does everyone feel about him and about the fact that he was absent from the Burton and Nolan Batfilms?
My favorite Robin remains Dick Grayson and my favorite Robin actor is Burt Ward (though I like the animated Robin a lot, and Chris O'Donnell wasn't all that bad either)
I like to see Batman established as a lone vigilante before Robin is added to the mix so I didn't have any problems with his absence throughout the Burton and Nolan Batman movies, Edd.
I don't hate Robin but I just like to have some time spent on Batman working alone before companions, such as Robin, Nightwing and Batgirl are introduced.
Wasn't there a rumour about Nightwing being mentioned in Batman v Superman?
I like Batman being established first too but the problem is that in the recent films Robin or Batgirl were never added... and it doesn't look like they'll be present in the new movies either. :-\
I prefer solo Batman, but do see value in Robin. I think he worked excellently in the 60s show and BTAS. I like the fatherly role Bruce plays with Dick, most of all.
"Baby on board, something, something......Burt Ward!" ;D One of my favourite jokes in The Simpsons (Matt Groening is apparently a big Batman tv show fan) in which Homer writes a nonsensical lyric seen in the "B-Sharps" barbershop quartet episode.
I think they were right to not have Robin at first in the original movies. Nevertheless it did drive me crazy as a kid wondering just where the hell he was. Any kind of Batman story, comic, animation or movie increases in excitement for me when Robin is part of it. I think it's just as simple a thing as the "team dynamic".
I think we forget now (deliberately in some ways it must be said) how big a deal it was when he finally arrived in the third movie. It was absolutely the right time to do it. He and The Riddler took it to a whole new interest level for an audience. Just doing another similar solo Batman simply would not have done. Myself and my dad enjoyed the finale of Batman Forever for the thrill of seeing a little bit of Adam West and Burt Ward being brought back to life (how we both were overjoyed by the "Holy Rusted Metal.." line). I don't see that as a mistake or a problem.
Batman Forever is unusual to me in that it starts out structurally as a traditional Batman picture. Fans displeased at Robin's prescence forget he doesn't actually arrive until the final battle. But when that finally kicked in the movie rocketed onto a whole new level of excitement for me as a seven year old in the summer of 95'.
I agree. I really like the fatherly role Bruce plays with Dick, I loved Robin's Reckoning in Batman TAS and I thought they did a decent job with him in Batman Forever. I though "Holy rusted metal, Batman!" was quite funny. ;D
When I think of Batman as a character, his partnership and relationship with Robin is one of the first things that comes to mind. I love them as team and I also feel more excitement when Robin is present.
Yeah he was wildly popular in th 1995 film both before and after. The planned title for the fourth film was "Batman Triumphant" but changed due to the popularity of Robin.
I like Batman best as a dark loner. It's okay to introduce Robin and other partners of Batman after Batman has been shown as a loner for a time though. I think it helps Batman evolve into a more social person who can trust people again. Notice that Bruce became a much lighter and happier person between Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. The influence of a "son" and crime fighting partner like Robin might have helped. Maybe it helped Bruce to finally have a friend besides Alfred. A friend who also lost his parents to an insane criminal.
I think you're right JokerMeThis. Robin is Batman's first real friend after Alfred as well as a fellow crimefighter who was also traumatised as a child.
I've read that Robin will allegedly have been killed by The Joker in the new franchise, but it's just a rumor.
Quote from: JokerMeThis on Mon, 26 May 2014, 22:37
I like Batman best as a dark loner. It's okay to introduce Robin and other partners of Batman after Batman has been shown as a loner for a time though. I think it helps Batman evolve into a more social person who can trust people again. Notice that Bruce became a much lighter and happier person between Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. The influence of a "son" and crime fighting partner like Robin might have helped. Maybe it helped Bruce to finally have a friend besides Alfred. A friend who also lost his parents to an insane criminal.
While you're not wrong, the reason Bruce doesn't act as dark in the 4th film is because the events of Batman Forever cure him of his guilt; he realizes he doesn't have to be Batman, he chooses to be. Also in a deleted scene he finds out that it was not his fault his parents died.
I like Batman as a dark loner, but Robin doesn't have to take away from this completely. I like the on-again, off again nature of Robin in BTAS, especially in the earlier episodes. As the years pass I'm more welcoming of this particular approach, because I think it makes Batman's universe feel more complete.
There's something about Robin that humanises Bruce. It gives him added purpose, and let's face it, Bruce (and Batman comics in general) thrive when things become personal. I dig the whole 'son becomes the father' angle. Passing on knowledge to the next generation, with each character growing as a result.
Burt Ward can be laughed at for the jokes he was given, but he injected genuine heart and soul into that performance, along with Adam West. They got along well. I believed they were close, and importantly, a team.
I think it's time we saw more of Robin. It would be a shame for him to be airbrushed out of history for fear of 'camp' and all that jazz. The Arkham series approached things quite well, I think, even if a little too much on the grim side.
It's important to show the hero in peril sometimes; the illusion of invincibility can make them boring. And Batman sometimes can seem as though he can do anything but he can't. Sometimes the villains do outsmart him and that's where Robin comes in. It does add to Bruces character that every time he is saved he shrugs it off and pretends he had it.
Update: I quite like Tim Drake now too, as well as Jason Todd ;)
But I still wish we saw Dick Grayson as Nightwing, and more of the Batman-Robin partnership in movies. I don't think Ward and O'Donnell were that bad, even if they were campy... and the team should not be thought of as just a 60's thing, Batman TAS, TNBA and Under the Red Hood prove otherwise.
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Sun, 29 Nov 2015, 01:36
Update: I quite like Tim Drake now too, as well as Jason Todd ;)
I heard that Jason Todd is the least liked Robin out of all of them among some fan circles. I don't mind him, but I do understand the criticism. Unlike Dick and Tim, who always had the mental strength and bright personality to overcome their tragic backstories - perhaps even more so than Batman himself - Jason always lacked the emotional intelligence that was needed to survive as a crimefighter. Being street smart wasn't going to cover up his attitude deficiencies. And his impulsive attitude ultimately got himself killed.
The sad thing about Jason is he looked like he was heading towards the right path. In
Batman #411 - Second Chance, Jason was outraged when his father was killed by Two-Face and Batman kept the truth away from him.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9VhsWgP.jpg&hash=beb22f75852ea01ebc09507a65f01997ef43127d)
But towards the end of the story, he saved Two-Face from being crushed to death, and turned him over to the police instead. Despite knowing that Two-Face killed his father, Jason seemed to understand that revenge would be useless and took more comfort that Two-Face would answer for his crimes, much to Batman's pleasure.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEzwpBSp.jpg&hash=e3aa82e3d5f70b7d6d84cd7c59938a3e903754f2)
This optimism changed, however, in the late 80s when Batman comics took a darker turn. During an investigation into a series of serial murders involving young women in
Batman #422 - Just Deserts, Jason took his anger out at a pimp for threatening a prostitute, until he was stopped by Batman.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Ff5foRKZ.jpg&hash=308143aa1fe95b5bb47587488ea53d25b777a497)
In
Batman #424 - The Diplomat's Son, Jason's frustration with operating within the law as it prevents the arrest and prosecution against Felipe Garzonas for raping a woman because his father is a South American diplomat, reaches at an all time high when Garzonas' phone call threats prompts the victim to commit suicide.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDhtWWri.jpg&hash=809b8edce50d1fcd0165231046f6a9dfa09e9a18)
It's implied that Robin avenged the girl's death when Robin arrives at Garzonas' apartment and supposedly forced him to fall to his death, but the scene was ambiguous and left to the reader's imagination.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FpdmcQNR.jpg&hash=1b81798788205b1f7e73095d7684a393db682dc2)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FblLhC9S.jpg&hash=f49d21172d2b89d274bfce2964a75b30b326fe41)
Finally, things were worsening in
A Death in the Family, as Jason's impatient assault attack on a child porn ring initially had Bruce deciding to ban him from duty. The situation becomes further complicated when Jason runs away upon learning his biological mother is still alive somewhere overseas, although he and Batman agree to work together again to stop Joker from selling a nuclear bomb.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCvHAyd5.jpg&hash=d827bdc2f1c485f7dabffdd1678cc87d28edd9c7)
As things suddenly look bright for Jason when he found his mother, who is a doctor in Ethiopia, things tragically turn for the worst as she double-crosses her own son to her boss, the Joker. Which lead to that infamous crowbar smackdown.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fwv1d0pi.jpg&hash=73027df7235ac1a35ed846cab1fa6f5bfe708cd6)
Amazingly, as Joker double-crosses Jason's mother and have both of them blown to bits, Jason still tries to save her moments before the two perish in the explosion.
Had Jason immediately called for Batman's help and not try to save his own mum by himself, would he have stayed alive today? Maybe. But to be fair, you might understand that Jason was afraid that his own mum's life was at stake, and never in his wildest imaginations did ever think he could be betrayed like this.
Nonetheless, that's the difference between him and Dick Grayson and Tim Drake. The other two Robins didn't let their emotion let them cloud their judgment. And they knew the law wasn't perfect, but they soldiered on. Win some and lose some. When push came to shove, Jason just mentally wasn't cut out for this lifestyle, and now Batman has to live with the guilt of Jason's death (and his subsequent resurrection as the Red Hood) for the rest of his life.
But in my opinion, I'm glad that Jason Todd existed in the Post Crisis era. His existence dealt with a compelling scenario that Batman faced over his own loneliness and realizing how he needs a sidekick to help him as he gets older. It gave complexity to his friendship with Dick Grayson, as their partnership ended on abrupt turns and Bruce's decision to taking Jason under his wing meant that letting Dick go was a mistake. One might say "he didn't learn his lesson" when he allowed Tim to become Robin afterwards, but Bruce was very hesitant, and initially even forbade IIRC, to take up the mantle, despite Tim's stressing that "he's not like Jason".
Thank you for the great insight, TLF. And all I knew about Todd prior to your post was "Under the Red Hood", and I could really see where Jason was coming from.
My favorite is still Dick Grayson, with Tim closing in and Jason still an interesting one. I don't know that much about other Robins, I'm afraid.
Do you like Grayson or Drake more ?
Glad you enjoyed reading it, Edd. 8)
If I have to choose between Grayson and Drake, I'd still have to choose Grayson only because I'm more familiar with him. He was always portrayed as the polar opposite to Batman's broody personality. Besides, Loren Lester doing his 1950s voice-style acting makes me laugh. :D
I still need to read more Tim Drake stories before I can give a more informed opinion about him, but I noticed, and I'm sure it was mentioned elsewhere a few times on this forum, that The New Batman Adventures TV show used Jason Todd's background for their version of the character i.e. run-down home with a struggling dad who was killed by Two-Face. In the comics, Tim's parents were still alive and they worked as archeologists until they were abducted and poisoned to a death by a voodoo magician during a trip to Africa. But both versions had one thing in common: Tim was obsessed with Batman, and followed his career closely.
Grayson is mine also because I was very familiar with him for a long time, and yes because he was the "light side" of the team. I like Drake too, and have you seen him in "Return of the Joker" ? ;)
I've also seen the 2003 "Teen Titans" Robin, assumed by fans to be Dick, and enough hints made me think so too. Still, I can't imagine Robin working for too long with no Batman. And not even Nightwing. Batman without Robin, maybe, but I still like them to be a duo. :)
The Post-Crisis isn't all that likable but I do like what he brings to the table. First, he demonstrates that Batman on some level needs Robin. Just a few issues before the Post-Crisis Jason started as Robin, Batman fired the Post-Crisis Dick as Robin. Fired him. Kicked him out of the cave. Told him to never come back.
Dick didn't need to "grow" and "become his own man". Not in those issues. That's all revisionist stuff that came later. Dick was relieved of duty because Batman feared for his safety. It was quite the falling out between those two. Batman needs Robin though so he found a new one. And that leads into...
Second, the Post-Crisis Jason demonstrates Batman's fallibility. He chose the wrong kid. He gave him too much responsibility. Jason was way too unstable to do what Batman needs Robin to do. Batman made the wrong decision by recruiting Jason. He should've dropped him off at an orphanage or juvie or something.
Third, the Post-Crisis Jason (before Judd Winnick came along) metaphorically haunted Batman. Batman's poor judgment cost Jason his life. It might've cost other people their lives too depending on how you interpret Jason's actions prior to A Death in the Family.
Batman resisted the idea of finding a new Robin because of Jason's death. He didn't connect the dots that he simply chose the wrong person to serve as his partner. The concept of Robin isn't flawed; the flaw was in who Batman chose to do the job after he fired Dick.
A lot of Batman's most famous stories from the late 80's and early 90's (A Death in the Family, Knightfall/Knightquest and maybe others) are defined by his making piss-poor staffing choices. This ultimately led Batman to become a lot more territorial with who is allowed to operate in Gotham City... which led to other mistakes when No Man's Land hit.
Taken altogether, the Post-Crisis Jason Todd is arguably the opening salvo of what would ultimately become the "Bat-God" that Grant Morrison arguably defined. This is a character who's such a control freak with his myriad plans, contingency plans, backup plans, etc, because of what his mistakes have led to and the tragedies he could've prevented but didn't.
I'm not big on Jason Todd (Pre- or Post-Crisis) but he brings something to the table. Nobody can argue that.
That's essentially what I also think about Jason Todd, colors.
Now, if only filmmakers considered the partnership again, be it with Dick or Tim...
Quote
I like Drake too, and have you seen him in "Return of the Joker" ?
I certainly did. Cool and cocky he was...until he was tortured by the Joker.
Did you know that there was another version of Joker's death scene in that movie? This PG-rated version had Joker accidentally electrocuted to death off-screen, as opposed to the original scene where Tim shot him because the producers were afraid of a child firing a gun would potentially cause a massive backlash among parents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cux_R_DQsoY
I prefer the gun scene. It was more shocking and fitting to the Joker's ending.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 29 Nov 2015, 09:00
The Post-Crisis isn't all that likable but I do like what he brings to the table. First, he demonstrates that Batman on some level needs Robin. Just a few issues before the Post-Crisis Jason started as Robin, Batman fired the Post-Crisis Dick as Robin. Fired him. Kicked him out of the cave. Told him to never come back.
Dick didn't need to "grow" and "become his own man". Not in those issues. That's all revisionist stuff that came later. Dick was relieved of duty because Batman feared for his safety. It was quite the falling out between those two. Batman needs Robin though so he found a new one.
Yes. I suppose you could say that Batman had a knee jerk reaction when he nearly killed an injured Robin by accident, while trying to stop Joker from making his getaway in
Batman #408 - Did Robin Die Tonight?. Their lives are constantly in danger every time they go out on duty, but I guess that close call was too much for Batman to bear, and decided to let the public believe that Robin had died. Which was something he had to repeat when Jason died too.
That issue was also the first Batman comic that I read where it makes nods to having Robin as a sidekick would realistically be classified as endangering the welfare of a child. Gordon was relieved when Batman confided in him that he's secretly still alive, and always thought having Robin involved was questionable in the first place.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYp8jqFu.jpg&hash=96a660b723aa642ff295933172ab9464991dea48)
I see your point about the retconning. In issue #408, Dick was unhappy with Bruce for banning the Robin identity, but he seemed to accept the decision. But in
Batman #416 - White Gold & Truth, the scene was rewritten where Dick was heartbroken as Batman walked away without even saying a final goodbye, and Dick deciding to leave Wayne Manor to fend for himself. That issue had this great confrontation between Nightwing and Batman, where Bruce was questioned why he suddenly adopted Jason as the new Robin. Dick not only dared Bruce to unmask and explain himself, but he even called out on Bruce's bullsh*t when he tried to use Jason's poor background as an excuse to save him. So Bruce, never used to having to justify himself honestly to one of his (former) sidekicks before, angrily admitted that he missed having Dick around...before kicking him out. Very strange.
Another odd psychological pattern about Batman is he took down all photographs of Jason and pretended that he never existed following his death in
Batman: Year Three. Does Batman suffer from some kind of emotional anxiety disorder or something?
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 30 Nov 2015, 13:07
Quote
I like Drake too, and have you seen him in "Return of the Joker" ?
I certainly did. Cool and cocky he was...until he was tortured by the Joker.
Did you know that there was another version of Joker's death scene in that movie? This PG-rated version had Joker accidentally electrocuted to death off-screen, as opposed to the original scene where Tim shot him because the producers were afraid of a child firing a gun would potentially cause a massive backlash among parents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cux_R_DQsoY
I prefer the gun scene. It was more shocking and fitting to the Joker's ending.
I agree. And I thought Batman Beyond was a good show, actually a favorite of mine in its original run here, where it was called "Batman of the Future".
I'm going back to Jason Todd again after reading more comics of him before his behaviour worsened in the late 1980s.
I understand that the history behind A Death in the Family had editors setting up a telephone hotline for fans to call in and vote to kill off Jason or keep him alive. But what caught my attention was that writers were teasing with the idea of Jason dying before A Death in the Family.
In Detective Comics #571 - Fear for Sale, Batman was poisoned by the Scarecrow with a toxin that removed the ability to feel fear; causing victims to feel overconfident and take dangerous and potentially lethal risks. Scarecrow kidnapped Robin and set up death traps for Batman, but Batman survived and rescued Jason by focusing heavily on the one thing he most feared that could happen.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfmRfws2.jpg&hash=8a49b7cccf338bba9bbd08132fe4952091cb275a)
In Detective Comics #573 - The Mad Hatter Flips His Lids!, Batman and Robin stopped the Mad Hatter from escaping, but Robin got gravely injured in the heat of the moment...
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...which led to this front cover of Detective Comics #574 - My Beginning... and My Probable End, where Batman goes to Crime Alley and seeks Dr. Leslie Thompkins' help to aid Robin.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette1.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fmarvel_dc%2Fimages%2F0%2F0b%2FDetective_Comics_574.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%2Fscale-to-width-down%2F300%3Fcb%3D20081219123148&hash=35b0d40c87dc95a27f31ea89d6bc5cbbb3912446)
And similar to Dick Grayson's reaction in Batman #416, Leslie does not believe that Batman adopted Jason to save him from a life of crime, but Bruce continuing his "selfish" desire to take his anger out on the wrong side as a way of getting revenge for his parents' murders. Fortunately for Bruce, Jason came out of his coma and lived to fight another day.
Again, my guess is that the idea of killing off Jason was planned some time long before A Death in the Family was created.
By the way, I noticed that Jason Todd had a happy-go-lucky attitude in these comics before his behaviour worsened in 1987-88, like a traditional Robin. He used to crack lames puns and jokes as you can see in this example in #573.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FCgr9NCV.jpg&hash=272f5633fb1789c4e639a721f35f4bce25cdb0b3)
I guess this reaffirms my earlier point that Jason's inability to cope with a more violent and corrupt Gotham City, as well as struggling to cope with his own demons lead him towards a doomed, and even self-destructive, path.
While I do not agree with his Red Hood persona, it's good that Jason was a well-written and layered character.
Reading these comics that I sourced in my previous posts, you can see definitely see how important it is for Batman to adopt a sidekick like Robin.
In these comics in the 1980s, Batman was becoming aware that he's getting older and he can't do everything all by himself anymore. He needs a partner to cover him when he gets distracted and whenever he lets his guard down. One of the things that used to bother me about The Dark Knight Returns was that Batman immediately recruited Carrie Kelley as Robin. In the past, I thought he didn't learn anything after Jason Todd was killed ten years earlier. But afterwards, I realized that not only Batman was fighting a war against the Mutants, he was an aging man who was extremely lucky that Carrie saved him from getting killed. No matter how confident he may be mentally, his body can't cope with beating up ten or twenty crooks like he could in his prime. And to fight this war, he had to get as many reinforcements he needed to stop this massive crime rate in Gotham City.
There's also an issue surrounding Batman's loneliness; without someone like Robin, being on patrol all alone takes a toll. This is what he explained in A Death in the Family, and what he reluctantly admitted to Dick Grayson in Batman #416; which is why he realized that banning Dick from being Robin ever again when he nearly died was a mistake. Of course, let's remember that Bruce shares a family bond and a link with nearly every Robin he had: Jason, Tim, and Dick were all orphans like Bruce. As supportive as Alfred is, the company of these three Robins ensured that Bruce didn't feel alone in this bleak world.
That being said, there were plenty of moments where the writers seemed self-aware that having a child hero like Robin around is dangerous, e.g. the screenshot that I posted of the TV presenter condemning Batman of committing "child abuse" when rumours of Robin's death spread in Batman #408. Even Dr. Leslie Thompkins in Detective Comics #574 slammed Bruce for putting Jason out on duty - even went far by asking him if Dick's near death experience back in Batman #408 taught him anything. Although I appreciate the realism in these comics, it becomes a little conflicting if it keeps emphasizing that Batman might be guilty of child endangerment.
If you can tell me, why is it that Batman needed a new "Robin" and the old one left from time to time? I know Dick Grayson became Nightwing and we all know what happened to Jason...
Quote from: Max Shreck on Tue, 29 Dec 2015, 16:03
If you can tell me, why is it that Batman needed a new "Robin" and the old one left from time to time? I know Dick Grayson became Nightwing and we all know what happened to Jason...
Dick Grayson gave Jason his blessing to become Robin in
Batman #368 - A Revenge of Rainbows. By that stage, Dick had joined the Teen Titans, but interestingly he commented that he hadn't adopted a new identity yet. Which might have meant he didn't become Nightwing until much later. Keep in mind that this comic was published in 1984, which was two or three years before some history got revised so Batman and Nightwing had that tense confrontation in Batman #416. What's funny about this particular issue is when Jason inherited the Robin identity, he was mistakenly targeted for revenge by a villain called Crazy-Quilt, who unknowingly had a deep grudge against the Dick Grayson Robin. In the end of the issue, Jason was badly beaten and presumably left for dead.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-49iPjethS14%2FUHyjhqeSuRI%2FAAAAAAAAAlY%2FIPSG6vEyeo0%2Fs1600%2Fnooooooo.JPG&hash=84ef53911252bda1999f407b45b94639417421f3)
Seriously, if I was growing up in the 1980s reading these comics, I wouldn't be shocked by Jason's eventual demise in A Death in the Family.
As for why Tim Drake adopted the Robin persona? I haven't got around to reading that definitive issue yet, but my guess is that Tim was a huge fan of Batman and Robin, and followed their adventures closely. When Tim's parents had died, he wanted to become Robin himself, much to Batman's resistance - until Tim proved himself by rescuing Batman when he was captured by the Scarecrow in
Batman #457 - Master of Fear. At that stage, the Robin identity no longer belonged to Dick. It was a mantle that could be passed onto anybody who is capable.
I understand now. :)
Batman and Tim Drake.
(https://scontent.fotp3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12509600_986452994775712_5809804076361117666_n.jpg?oh=de6c4697a3f1faa8c32104da94b76e7a&oe=57417AC2)
Do you know which comic that came from Max? I haven't read it, and it's definitely not from the 80s.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 02:40
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I somehow forgot to compare that front cover to the iconic image of Batman holding Jason's dead body in his arms in A Death of the Family.
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Way too much of a coincidence for my liking.
Another Robin I like to talk about is Batman's son, Damian Wayne. I got more of an understanding about him after recently watching Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin - one of which was based on the Court of Owls storyline.
I must admit that I'm not a fan of Damian. I understand what the writers were going for: a boy who was trained at a very young age to become a deadly assassin and heir to Ra's al Ghul, who is so disciplined beyond his age that he never got to be a kid. That is tragic by itself. But I just can't stand him. He's not really a brat, but I just find his arguing with his father to be petty. There were a lot of times in both of those animated films where I wondered why would Bruce even bring Damian on board as Robin, particularly arguing constantly on the subject of killing. Damian slowly adopts his father's moral code, but I can't help but think it feels contrived. It's strange.
That was from The New 52, Laughing Fish, the one I posted... but I'm still not as knowledgeable about the different incarnations as you. :)
I never liked the idea of Damian Wayne myself.
It felt appropriate that he was absent from Burton and Nolan's films. Depicted was Batman's earlier solo career and beginnings as a crimefighter, respectively. Technically, you could have fit him into the second films from a development standpoint (Batman Returns and The Dark Knight), though those films were already jam-packed with other characters that it just seems improbable. Above all, it's important to introduce Batman as a lone vigilante before getting into Robin. I would have liked to see a Carrie Kelley-esque Robin in The Dark Knight Rises, but in this uber-realistic world, the best we got was John Blake.
I'm disappointed that filmmakers are too embarrassed to give us a classic Robin. I feel like when you draw the line for what ridiculous Batman conventions you want to include and not, you take it too seriously. I want to see the 8-year old acrobat in pixie boots swinging across building tops that changed the face of comics.
Quote from: Slash Man on Fri, 27 May 2016, 07:14
I'm disappointed that filmmakers are too embarrassed to give us a classic Robin. I feel like when you draw the line for what ridiculous Batman conventions you want to include and not, you take it too seriously. I want to see the 8-year old acrobat in pixie boots swinging across building tops that changed the face of comics.
I think WB would hesitate to bring a young boy at that age into a vigilante story because it would provoke controversy. But I tell you what, after a teenage Spider-Man was brought in by Tony Stark to fight Captain America, I have relaxed my attitude towards bringing a fifteen year old Robinon screen. Civil War a pretty dark film but Spider-Man was praised for bringing in levity, so I don't see why the same can't be accomplished for Robin.
A few months ago, I got the chance to read the storyline A Lonely Place of Dying. I always knew Tim Drake was smart enough to tracks down Dick Grayson and Batman and confesses he knows their true identities, but I didn't know that he witnessed Dick's parents dying at Haly's Circus, and instantly recognised Dick's acrobats as soon as he became Robin. Already Tim shows the intelligence in not only learning who Batman and Robin are, but understood that Batman would always need a sidekick to keep him in check and not to fall in that lonely abyss. And he was right because Bruce was becoming unfocused and reckless ever since Jason Todd died, and his stubbornness in trying to take care of things by himself almost got him killed by Two-Face.
Tragedy has a strange way of transforming into a special bond between Batman and Robin, doesn't it?
The next Robin we see will likely be Jason Todd as Red Hood. Bring it on.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 27 May 2016, 12:12
Quote from: Slash Man on Fri, 27 May 2016, 07:14
I'm disappointed that filmmakers are too embarrassed to give us a classic Robin. I feel like when you draw the line for what ridiculous Batman conventions you want to include and not, you take it too seriously. I want to see the 8-year old acrobat in pixie boots swinging across building tops that changed the face of comics.
I think WB would hesitate to bring a young boy at that age into a vigilante story because it would provoke controversy. But I tell you what, after a teenage Spider-Man was brought in by Tony Stark to fight Captain America, I have relaxed my attitude towards bringing a fifteen year old Robinon screen. Civil War a pretty dark film but Spider-Man was praised for bringing in levity, so I don't see why the same can't be accomplished for Robin.
I think that's the hardest part; how to incorporate a 12 year old fighting crime on the big screen. I doubt Nolan would have used a teenage robin. Note that in the trilogy, the only dialogue from children are young Bruce in begins and Gordons son in TDK. I can't imagine Nolan using a teenage boy. It is weird how the movies redefined things; prior to 1989 it was rare to have Batman stories without Robin. Year one had Bats work alone but it was an adjustment to see solo Batman.
Quote from: riddler on Fri, 27 May 2016, 13:36
It is weird how the movies redefined things; prior to 1989 it was rare to have Batman stories without Robin. Year one had Bats work alone but it was an adjustment to see solo Batman.
You still see Batman comics featuring Robin, but I noticed it became common to see people preferring to see Batman without any sidekicks whenever I go online. These people tend to support their argument by judging how Schumacher portrayed Robin in BF and B&R, and worry any future Batman movie would have its tone compromised to that level of "camp" again. Which I find to be such an absurd argument. Robin appearing in live action doesn't make the story automatically "campy".
As a matter of fact, Schumacher can rightfully or wrongfully be criticised for the tone and so on, but I commend him for his ideas in introducing Robin in the films; Bruce making peace with his own demons and steering Dick into the right path to fight for justice, and the two regain a bond that becomes more of a family by the end of B&R. It's a positive arc.
***EDIT*** This blog entry writes up a defense for Robin and sums up the narrow-minded attitude him by so-called fans over the years. But be warned, it contains some swearing and cheap jokes, so it's a little NSFW.
http://rant-review34t.blogspot.com/2010/12/in-defense-of-robin.html
Quote from: riddler on Fri, 27 May 2016, 13:36
I think WB would hesitate to bring a young boy at that age into a vigilante story because it would provoke controversy. It is weird how the movies redefined things; prior to 1989 it was rare to have Batman stories without Robin. Year one had Bats work alone but it was an adjustment to see solo Batman.
True. From Batman Vol 1 #1 (spring 1940) until Batman Vol 1 #217 (December 1969), it was always Batman & Robin in the comics. There was the odd solo story, but most of the time they appeared as a team. And they also appeared together in pretty much every adaptation up until Batman 89.
I think I'm right in saying that Burton's movie was the first time Batman was depicted without Robin in live action. It's understandable why some people would be confused by the Boy Wonder's absence. Comic fans were accustomed to seeing Batman work alone, but it was the 1989 film that brought the idea to the general public. And even then, many of them were clamouring for Robin to appear in the sequel.
Not that it needed it; Robin was just iconic and people weren't used to the idea of having Batman but not Robin. But at the same time, no one complained.
Quote from: riddler on Fri, 27 May 2016, 13:36
I think that's the hardest part; how to incorporate a 12 year old fighting crime on the big screen. I doubt Nolan would have used a teenage robin. Note that in the trilogy, the only dialogue from children are young Bruce in begins and Gordons son in TDK. I can't imagine Nolan using a teenage boy. It is weird how the movies redefined things; prior to 1989 it was rare to have Batman stories without Robin. Year one had Bats work alone but it was an adjustment to see solo Batman.
True, but its in the roots of the character that Robin is that young (I've heard Golden Age Robin is either 8 or 12). It was truly bizarre because this was a time when Batman was still killing people without a second thought. Robin's first goal was to give Batman someone to talk to. The effect of lightening up the tone was a consequence that came afterwards.
It seems that fairly recently, artists kept trying to make Robin
cool, sometimes coming across as trying too hard. Not sure when Robin became noticeably older; whether it started in the comics, or with Burt Ward being older than the character was written. But after the Teen Titans and whatnot, Robin got a redesign in the 90s, and was shifted into being more of a partner than a sidekick. Chris O'Donnell's Robin seemed to be a culmination of this. But yeah, it became much harder to make Robin younger and more of a sidekick to Batman after this.
Nolan had the opening for a Robin character in DKR. With its parallels to The Dark Knight Returns, a younger partner to pass the torch to was necessary. Could a classic Robin have fit into it? Probably not. But I do believe there could have been
A Robin.
Finally, I think the biggest issue with Robin would be child actors. It's very rare to see someone that young give a good, convincing performance. Let alone getting the stunts to look convincing. Douglas Croft was as close as they could come.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 28 May 2016, 04:11
You still see Batman comics featuring Robin, but I noticed it became common to see people preferring to see Batman without any sidekicks whenever I go online.
Generally speaking, I prefer Batman operating alone. But in recent years my tone has changed. I think the Arkham games were a key factor, along with the 66 TV show, BTAS and now the BvS universe. I like the idea that Batman develops a family around him. That his world grows over the years, but he still holds onto his individuality. I think it makes his world feel more complete and layered. Affleck staring at the battle damaged Robin costume is an example.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 29 May 2016, 00:32
Generally speaking, I prefer Batman operating alone. But in recent years my tone has changed. I think the Arkham games were a key factor, along with the 66 TV show, BTAS and now the BvS universe. I like the idea that Batman develops a family around him. That his world grows over the years, but he still holds onto his individuality. I think it makes his world feel more complete and layered. Affleck staring at the battle damaged Robin costume is an example.
I think this passage from the blog entry I linked in my previous post sums this up:
Quote
Then there's the "old chum" thing--the idea that Batman, a notoriously antisocial loner would not have any want or need for a sidekick. Admittedly, seeing the dark and brooding Batman looking all awesome and depressed is severely diminished when you see ol' green underwear standing beside him trying to look important. Over the years, writers like Chuck Dixon and Marv Wolfman have tried to make excuses for the costume, saying that it exudes total confidence in his skills, it's a loving homage to his parents, or that it's purposeful so villains wouldn't take him seriously and become overconfident allowing Robin to seriously f*** them up. It's a nice try but even I don't buy that one. Thankfully, by the time Tim Drake (the third Robin) took up the mantle it actually resembled a real costume. The purpose of Robin is to keep Batman in check, from getting too dark and keep from crossing the line, and Robin always gave Batman a reason to try to stay sane: he was the example now, the father.
The mention of Tim Drake and what he was trying to accomplish in A Lonely Place of Dying explains why Robin is an important part of the Batman mythos. No matter how many actors like Christian Bale might have a distaste for the character.
Part of it may be that many of the iconic batman stories in any media had no Robin- year one, the Burton and Nolan films, Mask of the phantasm, the arkham games for the most part. All Star Batman and the Schumacher films did have Robin but they are not well received. So likely what the character requires is a good story to be in.
When looking at Robin through a cynical lens, was making a child into a masked crime fighter the best thing for Dick? At face value, the original comics show Dick being able to maintain a normal and happy life after living with Bruce, but Frank Miller really exposes everything that could have gone wrong with Batman taking up a sidekick - and A Death in the Family shows the ultimate risk that such a position entails.
I still believe that teaming up with Batman was the best thing for Dick, as he was one of the few people whom could understand his loss. But Batman also gave Dick the opportunity for something he could never have - justice. Immediately brought Dick into the loop, giving him the harsh reality of how ineffective the police were against organized crime, but also giving him an outlet for his struggles by fighting crime directly. Dick was already an accomplished acrobat and extremely athletic; another thing that set him and young Bruce apart. While it took years for Bruce to physically and mentally prepare himself to become the Batman, Dick was already capable. Bruce saw an opportunity to create a force that could perhaps one day eclipse Batman.
Quote from: Slash Man on Wed, 10 Aug 2016, 07:07
When looking at Robin through a cynical lens, was making a child into a masked crime fighter the best thing for Dick? At face value, the original comics show Dick being able to maintain a normal and happy life after living with Bruce, but Frank Miller really exposes everything that could have gone wrong with Batman taking up a sidekick - and A Death in the Family shows the ultimate risk that such a position entails.
I know you're making a point that focuses on Dick Grayson, but A Death in the Family concerns Jason Todd's demise.
But what separates Dick and Tim Drake apart from Jason Todd was they were still way more mature than Jason (and even Bruce), which helped them live a good life. Jason Todd was a troubled kid who simply wasn't cut out emotionally to carry this sort of duty. After a promising start, it took a toll on him to the point he made mistakes and it cost him his life.
Going back to my earlier post in this thread about the Post-Crisis retcons involving Jason:
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 30 Nov 2015, 13:07
In issue #408, Dick was unhappy with Bruce for banning the Robin identity, but he seemed to accept the decision. But in Batman #416 - White Gold & Truth, the scene was rewritten where Dick was heartbroken as Batman walked away without even saying a final goodbye, and Dick deciding to leave Wayne Manor to fend for himself. That issue had this great confrontation between Nightwing and Batman, where Bruce was questioned why he suddenly adopted Jason as the new Robin. Dick not only dared Bruce to unmask and explain himself, but he even called out on Bruce's bullsh*t when he tried to use Jason's poor background as an excuse to save him. So Bruce, never used to having to justify himself honestly to one of his (former) sidekicks before, angrily admitted that he missed having Dick around...before kicking him out. Very strange.
Although Bruce might've been clutching at straws, he might've had a point when he adopted Jason as his ward and permitted him to become the next Robin. When Bruce first met Jason, the kid was abandoned in Crime Alley (if I remember right), and was left to look after himself with his broken all to himself, with no parents in sight. Jason was already living a bleak life and might've become a petty crook who ends up in jail or dead. With Batman, he was given a chance to live a better (albeit still dangerous) life where he could still enjoy privileges and have the opportunity to become a better person. He meant well, but his inability to cope with the injustice that came with being a crimefighter affected him emotionally, and as time passed by, he didn't have the maturity that Dick and Tim had to survive as Robin. But as gruesome as his death was in A Death in the Family, at least he died knowing he was capable of doing good in the world instead of running alone as a thief.
Quote from: Slash Man on Wed, 10 Aug 2016, 07:07I still believe that teaming up with Batman was the best thing for Dick, as he was one of the few people whom could understand his loss. But Batman also gave Dick the opportunity for something he could never have - justice. Immediately brought Dick into the loop, giving him the harsh reality of how ineffective the police were against organized crime, but also giving him an outlet for his struggles by fighting crime directly. Dick was already an accomplished acrobat and extremely athletic; another thing that set him and young Bruce apart. While it took years for Bruce to physically and mentally prepare himself to become the Batman, Dick was already capable. Bruce saw an opportunity to create a force that could perhaps one day eclipse Batman.
To me, recruiting Dick to become Robin marks the moment when Batman stops using brute force to achieve his ends and starts playing 3D chess.
Left to his own devices, Dick's is a criminal's origin story. Parents died, forced to live either in poverty or foster care, no love or support, inevitably ends up in drugs or some other crime. Batman would have to beat the snot out of Dick in ten years if he didn't recruit him into his mission.
Recruiting him, as you say, gives Dick justice where Bruce himself never had it. That shifts Dick's trajectory from vengeance (which, I maintain, is what motivates Batman) to more specifically a fondness for justice (which, I maintain, is an unintentional byproduct of Batman's mission).
Plus, it's a new avenue of attack against criminals.
Recruiting Dick shows Batman refining his methods and using more than just his fists to get the job done. It's a major part of his character growth. Without it, he seems to me to be less effectual.
I can understand wanting to control or even limit Robin's usage. Let's face it, taking a small child into battle is straight up insane. But eliminating Robin deprives Batman of incredibly powerful character growth. He is indispensable.
Agreed. While lazy writers like to turn Robin into a liability, having a child actually gives Batman a lot more options for investigative purposes. Under cover as Dick, he's able to able to both allow for Batman to be somewhere completely different, and better disguise himself in areas that would call for a kid and not an adult man.
And you know what I really like about Robin and the Bat family? They all eventually go their own seperate ways and leave Batman to his own devices, or at least have reduced contact with him. Batman more or less ends the way he started. That's why I love Batman Beyond. After all these glorious adventures and opening his heart to being more of a team player, he's doing nothing but ageing inside an empty manor.
Sad but fitting for the character I think.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 11 Aug 2016, 03:49And you know what I really like about Robin and the Bat family? They all eventually go their own seperate ways and leave Batman to his own devices, or at least have reduced contact with him. Batman more or less ends the way he started. That's why I love Batman Beyond. After all these glorious adventures and opening his heart to being more of a team player, he's doing nothing but ageing inside an empty manor.
Sad but fitting for the character I think.
Agreed... somewhat. It speaks to the different motivations they all had in joining the team in the first place. To me, Babs is one of those ridiculously intelligent people who will always be overqualified for any job she has. Of them all, she's probably the closest to being a peer for Batman.
But she's not consumed with vengeance. She's not driven by obsession. She would ultimately see the futility of Batman's quest and go her own way.
Dick is also not driven by anger and vengeance. He might've been under other circumstances... but Bruce headed that off at the pass. Dick would eventually want more from life than Bruce has to offer. Indeed, the canon shows that much.
We'll never know what Jason might've been because the Joker killed him and he never came back from the grave. I do believe it's reasonable to assume, though, that he would've quit on his own sooner or later. Not assumed a different superhero name. I mean
just freaking quit. He never had the drive to go the distance.
Tim Drake has the time, talent and patience to become Batman's replacement. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but the time will eventually come when Tim replaces Bruce. And when it comes to that, he'll be a very different Batman. Bruce is already careful and tactical in his methods. But if Bruce is cautious, Tim as Batman might be downright passive. I could see Tim as Batman truly being able to live up to Batman's rep as an urban legend because he wouldn't risk being seen until it was absolutely necessary. Tim's got the passion and the drive to be Batman and the skills to pull it off.
He's the one who wouldn't leave Bruce... which is good because Bruce has no offspring to whom he can pass on the mantle.