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I liked Hathaway's performance and the character in general, but I do have one or two criticisms of the way she was portrayed in this film.

My biggest gripe was the way the cat-motif was presented as incidental. Certain villains have their monikers thrust upon them (Penguin, Two-Face, Man-Bat), while others consciously choose to adopt a particular theme (Riddler, Mad Hatter, Clock King). Selina Kyle falls into the latter category. She adopts the feline mantle because of her affinity for cats, similar to how Batman adopts the mantle of the bat because it is his totem. But there was no mention of this in TDKR. She didn't have the cowl, the whip or the claws. And I may be wrong, but I don't recall her even owning a pet cat. Was she even referred to as Catwoman? She may have been, but I don't think she was. Granted, this approach was somewhat similar to the first two or three Catwoman stories in the comics. But the character has evolved a good deal since then.

Bottom line, the cat theme should not be incidental any more than the bat theme should be for Bruce Wayne. Imagine if Wayne went out dressed like a generic ninja and people said "Hmm, he looks a bit like a bat – so let's call him Batman!" The bat is meant to symbolise something, and removing that symbolism undermines the psychological meaning behind the totem. The same applies to Selina Kyle and cats. So I wasn't happy with that aspect of the characterisation.

I didn't feel there was any real chemistry between Hathaway and Bale either, and the idea of them suddenly becoming an item towards the end of the film felt forced and abrupt. I also didn't see the point of the Jen character. Everyone assumed Juno Temple was going to play Holly Robinson, but she didn't. And her character just disappeared halfway through the film and was never mentioned again anyway. Seemed kind of pointless.

But there were a lot of things I liked about the character too. The costume looked better than I was expecting and was a nice homage to the sixties Catwoman. Her fight scenes were good too. In fact the fight scenes in this film in general were probably the best in any Batman film to date, both in terms of choreography and photography/editing. This is really the first time we've seen the Modern Age Catwoman depicted in live action, and Hathaway did a good job with the material.

I also liked the way they used Catwoman's thievery, and her sense of entitlement when taking from the rich, to illustrate the iniquity of socialism. She starts out sounding like a typical Occupy Wall Street protestor but gradually becomes disillusioned with that ideology when she sees it taken to extremes (the scene about somebody's home becoming everyone else's home was especially poignant).

So all in all, I thought it was a good depiction of Selina and an ok depiction of Catwoman. Not as good as Pfeiffer IMO, but still a solid performance from Hathaway.

What did everyone else think?

EDIT: I also felt a bit cheated that we didn't get a Batman vs Catwoman fight.

I thought she was great. Especially during her first encounter with Bruce...really nailed it in that scene.

I will post more thoughts later when I get onto my PC (on the phone at the minute)

I like it in the sense that the word 'catwoman' is never mentioned in the entire film so we're lead to believe it is likely a pre-catwoman selina kyle. Though that being said we see her domicile and there's not a single cat there. Some people have loosely dubbed it 'catwoman begins'

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 22 Jul  2012, 11:39
My biggest gripe was the way the cat-motif was presented as incidental. Certain villains have their monikers thrust upon them (Penguin, Two-Face, Man-Bat), while others consciously choose to adopt a particular theme (Riddler, Mad Hatter, Clock King). Selina Kyle falls into the latter category. She adopts the feline mantle because of her affinity for cats, similar to how Batman adopts the mantle of the bat because it is his totem. But there was no mention of this in TDKR. She didn't have the cowl, the whip or the claws. And I may be wrong, but I don't recall her even owning a pet cat. Was she even referred to as Catwoman? She may have been, but I don't think she was. Granted, this approach was somewhat similar to the first two or three Catwoman stories in the comics. But the character has evolved a good deal since then.

The closest she gets to being called Catwoman is the name "The Cat" in the newspapers that Bruce looks at in the Batcave.  Whether or not the nickname has anything to do with her costume was never explained.  I was amused/annoyed myself that after all of Nolan's explanations to justify Batman's suit, Ra's and the League of Shadows, Scarecrow's mask, Joker's appearance (well, the scars), Two-Face's origin, and Bane's mask, Selina just randomly has the mask/goggles and costume on, with no explanation whatsoever.

QuoteI didn't feel there was any real chemistry between Hathaway and Bale either, and the idea of them suddenly becoming an item towards the end of the film felt forced and abrupt.

Agreed.  The entire relationship was rushed and it was awkward, to me, for Bruce to even consider being with her considering that she stole his mother's pearl necklace and gave him up to Bane.

QuoteI also didn't see the point of the Jen character. Everyone assumed Juno Temple was going to play Holly Robinson, but she didn't. And her character just disappeared halfway through the film and was never mentioned again anyway. Seemed kind of pointless.

Agreed.  Also, I can't believe they didn't even give her the name Holly Robinson when it was clearly the same character!

Overall, I thought Hathaway's Selina/Catwoman was one of the best aspects of the movie, though a bit underused and underdeveloped since she kind of disappears in the middle of the movie.

I was pleased with Anne's Catwoman. Granted she was never called "Catwoman" as Nolan explained in a interview. And Anne did mention in a interview she did not have any scenes with any cats, thought she almost adopted a cat appearently while shooting.

I also feel the character was underused. I know for me I was expecting her to be a bigger character than she was. Not that she wasn't vital, but where as Michelle's pretty much outshined Penguin (even though he was the 'main villain'), Anne's character was more 'tamed' and stayed on the sidelines a bit more durring the movie.

Overall she was great in this version of the character; she was sly, sexy, and moved her body very well. Much better than Halle thats for sure, which btw...anyone notice she also said "cat got your toung?" Thought that was a lil funny stab/homage to the 'Catwoman' movie...if it was at all.

QuoteMuch better than Halle thats for sure, which btw...anyone notice she also said "cat got your toung?" Thought that was a lil funny stab/homage to the 'Catwoman' movie...if it was at all.

I noticed that too. It's pretty bad that her only onscreen acknowledgement of the cat motif was a one-liner stolen from the Halle Berry Catwoman film  :-[

I know. That actually DID disapoint me that she wasn't "catty" enough. Where as Michelle was, but she was just soooo damn sexy about it! Like when she gave herself a "bath!" Not to mention she just exuberate sex appeal. Anne didn't do that for me. She had the attitude, and was very slinky and confident, but the sex was missing. Maybe I was spoiled seeing Michelle 20 years ago and in my mind, she IS THE Catwoman.

I was hoping that somewhere in the movie, she and Batman would have had a moment where she telling him something like "I was there you know, that night at Arkham..." Aluring to the fact of she witnessed when he called on all those bats as he escaped with Rachel. They had a very identical convorsation in Catwoman #94 (first series) where she tells him she saw him back durring the Year One story and was esstinally insipred by him and his bat motif, so she took on a cat motif. Buuuuuuut that didn't happen. 

Isn't "cat got your tongue" common slang in English speaking countries? I doubt they even aknowledge the existence of that... film. Pure coincidence.

It's not just the line, it's the context. In both films its Catwoman appearing in costume for the first time, disarming an enemy in the middle of a fight and playfully asking "cat got your tongue?" while she holds them incapacitated. It may be a coincidence, but it's a similarity worth remarking on. Just like the "I'm Batman" line in Batman Begins. Some Nolan fans maintain it's coincidental, but the fact remains the same line was used in a similar context in the 89 film. And regardless of authorial intent, that parallel creates a connection between the two movies.

The similarity in "I'm Batman" was very obvious, because Wilkinson's dialogue that leads to it is almost the same: "What (the hell) are you?" Those that deny it simply can't get over their distaste for the 80/90s films. Their loss.

Also, it may sound subjective, but it's not:
Batman 89 is a comic book classic that influenced an entire genre. Catwoman is a piece of sh*t (sorry Paul, the Penguin uses that word too!) that should have never been made, and should be left to oblivion. As simple as that, you can't compare the influence of a classic with that of a cinematic failure that makes the Schumacher films look good! Seeing Halle Berry in "favourite Catwoman" polls in some sites was bad enough :D

Anne Hathaway's performance as Catwoman was one of the few good things about this movie/trilogy, and I wish she was in the DCEU instead. I think she would've been a better fit facing off Batfleck, and mingle well with Margot Robbie's Harley.

If I had to change one thing about her character in this movie though, I'd get rid of the whole Clean Slate angle, and focus more about her revolt against the rich. The problem with the Clean Slate is it makes her a bit of a sociopath, because she doesn't care who she hurts as long as she gets what she wants. This doesn't really gel well for the rest of her characterisation in the movie, e.g. looking guilty while visiting a ransacked family home. It would've made more sense if she was a misguided vigilante who championed herself to protect the poor, who then incorrectly aligned herself with the League of Shadows because she believed she was serving a great cause.

Off-topic: it makes me laugh that some people criticised how "stupid" Batman was for being manipulated by Lex Luthor into fighting Superman in BvS, and claim Batman should've been smarter than that. They disregard that Batman experienced pain and tragedy in his twenty-year crime-fighting career as well as how the destruction unfolding in Metropolis influenced his prejudice over Superman. Any genuine flaw is dismissed, nor does the character learning from his mistake and restore his faith in humanity get acknowledged as a positive plot point.

Why am I bringing this up? Because in this movie, Batman falls for Catwoman's trap and finds himself caged with Bane. This is despite the fact that Batman knows she is a criminal and can't be trusted - not to mention the fact that he was himself VICTIMISED by her on two occasions. And he still trusts her for no reason, other than pure plot contrivance. But if you bring this up to some fans, they'll say "Batman's blind trust gives him a flaw".

What an absolute joke.

Fair points. When Batman gives her the bat-pod near the end of the movie, I'm unsure if Nolan wants us to see that as Selina's moment of redemption... or if we're supposed to expect betrayal and then be surprised when she follows through on her word all the way to the end.

Realistically though, as you say, Batman has precisely zero reason to trust her and the audience doesn't have much more either. Admittedly, she did say "This used to be a family's house" or some such but it's a kind of weak protest. I dunno, that's in the eye of the beholder.

But stealing the pearls, stealing Wayne's fingerprints and then selling him out to Bane are less excusable.

In fact, none of the women in TDKRises are really admirable.

Yeah, it's one thing about this movie that I don't understand. So he meets Talia, sleeps with her, and then just hands over the nuke to her? Also, Selina steals his mother's pearls, gives his fingerprints to Bane, which bankrupts him, then she sells him out to Bane, which he then gets his back broken...and the first thing Bruce does when he gets back to Gotham, is talk to Selina. lolwut?

So Gotham is held hostage because Bruce was too stupid to give a nuke over to someone he just slept with, and then his back is broken, because he keeps trusting a known burglar who keeps screwing him over. It just makes no sense to me. But what do I know, apparently ropes and crackers can fix a broken back, while also making you invulnerable to nuclear bombs.

Quote from: Travesty on Wed, 19 Jul  2017, 22:09Yeah, it's one thing about this movie that I don't understand. So he meets Talia, sleeps with her, and then just hands over the nuke to her? Also, Selina steals his mother's pearls, gives his fingerprints to Bane, which bankrupts him, then she sells him out to Bane, which he then gets his back broken...and the first thing Bruce does when he gets back to Gotham, is talk to Selina. lolwut?

So Gotham is held hostage because Bruce was too stupid to give a nuke over to someone he just slept with, and then his back is broken, because he keeps trusting a known burglar who keeps screwing him over. It just makes no sense to me. But what do I know, apparently ropes and crackers can fix a broken back, while also making you invulnerable to nuclear bombs.

He doesn't sleep with her until after he gives her Wayne Enterprises and he has known her for awhile at the start of the movie. Him giving her the reactor is actually based on the fact that he's pressed and can't take the chance that Dagget gets it. Talia even says that he's not really trusting her and just has no choice. Same with Selina. She's literally the only other ally he can get at the time, besides Blake. And Selina, being a criminal, can infiltrate Bane's group and help him escape with Fox.

He doesn't trust her perse, but at least counts on her being self serving enough to want to save her own life, a fact she tells him when she betrays him to Bane in the sewer. He believes there's more to her, but doesn't count on her to be more. Though he could believe there's more to her based on the fact that she saves a kid and she feels the need to justify why she betrayed him in the sewer scene, something she wouldn't necessarily do if she didn't care in some way. But that's just my perception of the situation.

The real question is: Why did Bruce take the time to shave? lol. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

Quote from: Travesty on Wed, 19 Jul  2017, 22:09
Yeah, it's one thing about this movie that I don't understand. So he meets Talia, sleeps with her, and then just hands over the nuke to her? Also, Selina steals his mother's pearls, gives his fingerprints to Bane, which bankrupts him, then she sells him out to Bane, which he then gets his back broken...and the first thing Bruce does when he gets back to Gotham, is talk to Selina. lolwut?

So Gotham is held hostage because Bruce was too stupid to give a nuke over to someone he just slept with, and then his back is broken, because he keeps trusting a known burglar who keeps screwing him over. It just makes no sense to me. But what do I know, apparently ropes and crackers can fix a broken back, while also making you invulnerable to nuclear bombs.

TDK Rises has a couple of good scenes, don't get me wrong. But the whole doesn't make sense.

Take the opening plane hijacking for example. Bane went to a lot of trouble for nothing. Think about it.

Then there's the stock market sequence:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/banes-plan-to-bankrupt-batman-doesnt-make-any-sense/260191/

The plot relies on a lot of coincidences. It relies on Bruce befriending Miranda and telling her about the reactor....and then giving her access. If he said NOTHING, like I think comic Bruce would, Bane's plan is over. I'm positive Bane/Daggett wouldn't have known about this area otherwise. And Bane's milita takeover of Gotham plot? That would be over as well, because Miranda wouldn't know about the stash of Tumblers hidden above the sewers.

Bane's big plot about telling the truth about Harvey eventuated because of pure luck. Gordon just happened to be captured by Bane's men, and Gordon just so happened to have a confession letter in his pocket. Which Bane later reads out, and without solid proof, everyone believes it.

Batman and Catwoman have a rocky relationship at times in the comics, but really, what did Selina do to show Bruce she was worth chasing romantically? She steals his necklace, steals his car and then sells him out to Bane to get bashed to near death. Bruce is a fool and he got played. Selina's reward for this is to get her criminal record cleared. Who wouldn't retire with this guy? He's a jackass who pays for everything and ignores all your bad deeds. She's laughing.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 21 Jul  2017, 01:31
TDK Rises has a couple of good scenes, don't get me wrong. But the whole doesn't make sense.

You just don't understand the complexity and genius by Christopher Nolan. In Nolan we trust! ::)

I'll say it again, it's absolutely laughable that Snyder gets condemned for a lot of things that Nolan gets a pass for. Bane and Joker's motives are even more nonsensical and contrived than Lex Luthor's plans in BvS. Nolan must have seriously good connections in the entertainment industry to get away with this sh*t, because anybody else would've been condemned for it. Hé's what the MCU is becoming nowadays, sacrosanct.

I can't dispute any of these flaws.

But Zimmer's work really is stunning in TDKRises.

And Nolan gave Batman an ending. Some like that ending, others don't like it. But dammit, he has an ending now. And that counts for a lot with me.

I'm going to be The Dark Nice for a moment to elaborate on those good scenes I spoke about.

1. Bane v Batman in the sewer

It's not as brutal as I would've hoped, but nonetheless, Batman gets his ass kicked for the first real time in live action. Sure, B89 had Ray Charles, but here Batman lost. For that fact alone I have to give the sequence credit. The flowing water and walkways provided an aesthetically pleasing environment.

2. Batman farewells Gordon and flies away with the bomb

It's a short sequence but it delivers the goods. I love that Batman reveals his identity to Gordon. It's an action that screams 'this is the end'. It's a type of sequence you would expect to see in a final film in a trilogy. I'm guessing Batman bailed from The Bat way before the detonation, perhaps causing the explosion to cover his ejection. That's my head canon anyway.

3. Batman's return

It's a decent chase sequence and honestly, it's pure cinema. Just like the Blues Brothers, Batman stares down the entire police force and still manages to escape against all odds. I dig the idea that Batman had The Bat hidden in a back alley like that. It's something I can imagine the comic book incarnation doing. He usually always has a backup plan. Plus, I love that small scene when he returns to the batcave.

4. Alfred reveals the truth about Rachel

It's a small scene, but an important one in the context of the trilogy. Bale and Caine knock it out of the park.

5. Bruce climbs from the pit

As a standalone sequence it's rather good. The music is spot on and visually gives the film it's title.

Other mentions go to Batman punching Bane's mask during the finale. I would've preferred that to be Bane's real defeat though as opposed to Catwoman saving the day, with Batman on his knees and seconds from death. But oh well.

So there's a bit I actually like about the film. It's just that the whole piece doesn't go together as I think it should.

Those things are awesome.

I really enjoy the first hour or so of the movie before Batman returns. Something about the archetype of the hero who has been beaten down by life or circumstance plays for me. I guess it goes back to Ben Kenobi in Star Wars '77. "I was once a Jedi Knight". It's always welcome in my book.

I dig the point/counterpoint of Batman and Bane having cavernous underground hideouts where water plays a major role in the design and aesthetics. They're more alike than they may realize. Or be comfortable with.

The first fight plays out without music and is that extra bit more brutal because of it. It might've been more brutal if Batman had bled from his injuries during the fight. Still, it says a lot that Batman is the toughest guy around... and yet, Bane's minions didn't lift a finger to help him with the fight because they knew he had this.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 04:45
3. Batman's return

It's a decent chase sequence and honestly, it's pure cinema. Just like the Blues Brothers, Batman stares down the entire police force and still manages to escape against all odds. I dig the idea that Batman had The Bat hidden in a back alley like that. It's something I can imagine the comic book incarnation doing. He usually always has a backup plan. Plus, I love that small scene when he returns to the batcave.

I disagree. I thought that chase scene was sh*thouse, and easily the worst out of all the chase sequences in the series. Batman's first return, and it's an unexciting, impotent display which he achieves nothing but letting Bane escape and divert all the cops attention. The chase scene with the bomb in the end was much better.

As the for the Bane fight? Put it this way, I was actually cheering on Bane for the whole time. That's how much I hated Batman in these movies. The only good guy in this movie who deserved any sympathy was Blake, in my opinion. Poor bastard caught in the middle of this mess.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 11:12
I really enjoy the first hour or so of the movie before Batman returns. Something about the archetype of the hero who has been beaten down by life or circumstance plays for me. I guess it goes back to Ben Kenobi in Star Wars '77. "I was once a Jedi Knight". It's always welcome in my book.

I know what you mean. I like the momentum the film builds in that section.

I like to think Bruce became Ras Al Ghul in a way during his hobo phase, even if the film doesn't make a point of it. Visually he looked like Ras, and I guess you could make this quote connection to Rachel:

"But I know the rage that drives you. That impossible anger strangling the grief, until the memory of your loved one is just... poison in your veins. And one day, you catch yourself wishing the person you loved had never existed, so you would be spared your pain."

Instead of rage, Bruce simply gave in to his grief, coupled with the Dent Act miraculously cleaning up all crime which made his presence irrelevant anyway.  My issue is how Batman is retired, comes back, is imprisoned, comes back and then retires again throughout the film. I would've omitted Blake completely and focused his screentime either on Bruce or Selina. Once Bruce is imprisoned the film drags IMO, and never really recovers. The first half is the best half.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 12:02I disagree. I thought that chase scene was sh*thouse, and easily the worst out of all the chase sequences in the series. Batman's first return, and it's an unexciting, impotent display which he achieves nothing but letting Bane escape and divert all the cops attention. The chase scene with the bomb in the end was much better.

It's not my business to play the role of Nolan apologist. But wasn't that the point? When Batman returns an hour into the movie... well, he wasn't really returning. It was Bruce wearing Batman's suit. Not actually Batman.

His return is heralded by an empty, impotent shower of sparks when he blasts Bane's motorcycle with that EMP gun to no effect. He didn't save the day and the bad guy escaped.

Batman's actual return occurs later in the movie and is punctuated by a vast nuclear explosion of great effect, signifying the end of Bane's reign of terror. He saved the day and the League of Shadows is permanently vanquished.

Very true. Batman's only heroic deed in the entire film is carrying the bomb out to the ocean. Everything else he fails at.

I do like the concept of that batpod chase for the reasons I described though.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 13:28
It's not my business to play the role of Nolan apologist. But wasn't that the point?

Try telling that to the fanboys, I don't think they'd take this kindly to heart if you argue any form of incompetence played a part for his character.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 13:28
When Batman returns an hour into the movie... well, he wasn't really returning. It was Bruce wearing Batman's suit. Not actually Batman.

I'd argue that Batman never appeared in the Nolan films to begin with, and was instead replaced with an incompetent James Bond knockoff who didn't know what the hell he was doing, thanks to awful writing.

It's funny that you brought up a point to defend the character about not being Batman during a significant portion of TDKR. That detail more than evokes Batman's arc in BvS as he was psychologically a shadow of his former self, until he finally came to his senses and became a hero again by rescuing Martha Kent and helped stop Doomsday. But, if you dare bring that up, hypocrites will complain Batman should never have been in that situation and manipulated by Lex, while ignoring that Nolan's version only had himself to blame for being manipulated by everybody in his wake and brought the whole mess upon himself.

If I have to choose a deconstructed take on Batman, I'd take BvS any day of the week.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 21 Jul  2017, 23:16You just don't understand the complexity and genius by Christopher Nolan. In Nolan we trust! ::)

I'll say it again, it's absolutely laughable that Snyder gets condemned for a lot of things that Nolan gets a pass for. Bane and Joker's motives are even more nonsensical and contrived than Lex Luthor's plans in BvS. Nolan must have seriously good connections in the entertainment industry to get away with this sh*t, because anybody else would've been condemned for it. Hé's what the MCU is becoming nowadays, sacrosanct.

Christopher Nolan isn't the only person apart of this movie. Jonathan is too. Bane and Joker's motives are actually pretty simple though. Bane wants revenge against Bruce for betraying the LOA and wants to destroy Gotham. His plan is convoluted though, overly so. Joker wants to prove that people are inherently bad. Joker has other things he wants, but that's his structured motive overall. Lex's motive is that he hates Superman because he blames God for not protecting him from his dad's abuse. It's nonsense. He's insane, yes, but that's an excuse to have his motive be nonsense. It would make far more sense if his motive was Batman's in the movie. Instead of making Batman a villain and then not holding him responsible for that. It's especially glaring coming off of the layered and multifaceted character of Lex from Smallville, built with the obsessive curiosity, savior complex, power hunger, jealousy and feelings of betrayal. Joker and Bane's plans don't depend on them knowing something he couldn't possibly know though.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 21 Jul  2017, 01:31TDK Rises has a couple of good scenes, don't get me wrong. But the whole doesn't make sense.

Take the opening plane hijacking for example. Bane went to a lot of trouble for nothing. Think about it.

Bane did it to find out if Pavel told them anything and fake his death.

QuoteThen there's the stock market sequence:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/banes-plan-to-bankrupt-batman-doesnt-make-any-sense/260191/

The plot relies on a lot of coincidences. It relies on Bruce befriending Miranda and telling her about the reactor....and then giving her access. If he said NOTHING, like I think comic Bruce would, Bane's plan is over. I'm positive Bane/Daggett wouldn't have known about this area otherwise. And Bane's milita takeover of Gotham plot? That would be over as well, because Miranda wouldn't know about the stash of Tumblers hidden above the sewers.

They got the tumblers because Bane found them by building his way into Wayne Enterprises via the basement. Miranda befriended Bruce as he was starting up his clean energy project and pursued him persistently about it. Giving her access is dependent on the stock plan giving Dagget an opportunity to take over, so Bruce would more easily hand it over to Miranda. These aren't coincidences. They're the plan. Fox says himself that they may be able to prove fraud, but not immediately.

QuoteBane's big plot about telling the truth about Harvey eventuated because of pure luck. Gordon just happened to be captured by Bane's men, and Gordon just so happened to have a confession letter in his pocket. Which Bane later reads out, and without solid proof, everyone believes it.

The criminals believe it. We don't see how the people react, except for Blake, who questions Gordon about it, who immediately admits it. The Gordon letter actually has nothing to do with Bane's overall plan. He just stumbles onto it as he's in the process of his plan.

QuoteBatman and Catwoman have a rocky relationship at times in the comics, but really, what did Selina do to show Bruce she was worth chasing romantically? She steals his necklace, steals his car and then sells him out to Bane to get bashed to near death.

She saved his life from Bane at the risk of her own life instead of running away to save herself.

QuoteBruce is a fool and he got played. Selina's reward for this is to get her criminal record cleared. Who wouldn't retire with this guy? He's a jackass who pays for everything and ignores all your bad deeds. She's laughing.

And he's got a pretty girlfirend. I think he's cool with it. I've seen other versions do worse.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 13:27I like to think Bruce became Ras Al Ghul in a way during his hobo phase, even if the film doesn't make a point of it. Visually he looked like Ras, and I guess you could make this quote connection to Rachel:

"But I know the rage that drives you. That impossible anger strangling the grief, until the memory of your loved one is just... poison in your veins. And one day, you catch yourself wishing the person you loved had never existed, so you would be spared your pain."

Instead of rage, Bruce simply gave in to his grief, coupled with the Dent Act miraculously cleaning up all crime which made his presence irrelevant anyway.  My issue is how Batman is retired, comes back, is imprisoned, comes back and then retires again throughout the film. I would've omitted Blake completely and focused his screentime either on Bruce or Selina. Once Bruce is imprisoned the film drags IMO, and never really recovers. The first half is the best half.

Interesting thought that had never occurred to me. Good job!

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 13:28It's not my business to play the role of Nolan apologist. But wasn't that the point? When Batman returns an hour into the movie... well, he wasn't really returning. It was Bruce wearing Batman's suit. Not actually Batman.

His return is heralded by an empty, impotent shower of sparks when he blasts Bane's motorcycle with that EMP gun to no effect. He didn't save the day and the bad guy escaped.

Batman's actual return occurs later in the movie and is punctuated by a vast nuclear explosion of great effect, signifying the end of Bane's reign of terror. He saved the day and the League of Shadows is permanently vanquished.

As I understand it, yes.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 13:40Very true. Batman's only heroic deed in the entire film is carrying the bomb out to the ocean. Everything else he fails at.

Exactly. And that's the point. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

How long has it been since some of you have seen the movie? Because earlier one of you said that Talia sleeping with Bruce was the reason he gave her WE, when that happened after he gave WE to her. And now someone seemed to think that Bane and Talia were apart of 2 separate plans that just happen to converge in on eachother, when they were working together the  whole time.

Quote from: Dagenspear on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 15:44
Interesting thought that had never occurred to me. Good job!

Yep. I think it fits.

Quote from: Dagenspear on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 15:44
Exactly. And that's the point.

I think I like it, actually. Batman being out of action for years on end wouldn't equal a powerful athlete. It's like he's imitating what he thinks Batman should be, but never really recapturing that same standard. Sure, his career wasn't that long, but as the years passed Batman become a myth seperate from himself. The exoskeleton on his legs helped, but you can't turn around years of inactivity. Batman had just enough power left to save the day, but that was it. When you consider all the setbacks and failures he experiences in the film, it's easily the most hardships a cinematic Batman has faced.

A lonely shut-in for almost a decade.
His body badly deteriorated.
Has his mother's necklace stolen.
Has his car stolen.
Fails to stop Bane on the bike and stop the transaction.
Is completely bankrupted.
Is thrashed by Bane in combat.
Is betrayed by Miranda.
His clean energy project is used against him.
Is thrown into a foreign jail for a lengthy period of time.
Is almost killed by Talia and Bane before rescued by Catwoman.
Is thought dead by the world.

That's called going through the ringer.

Quote from: Dagenspear on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 15:51
How long has it been since some of you have seen the movie?

Probably about a year or more. I may give it another viewing sooner rather than later.

TDK Rises isn't a film without issues, but that doesn't mean it's devoid of value.

Finally decided to give in and watch this, the girlfriend has the DVD and was like "You NEED to watch it." So, I did. The minute I saw Hathaway I said "Don't get attached, don't get attached, DON'T get attached." The minute she kicked Bruce's cane out from under him and backflipped out the window, I said "Aw f***, I'm attached." When that guy asked if her heels make it hard to walk and she goes "I don't know," spears him with one, and asks with mock curiosity "Do they?" I said "Aw f***, I'm in love."

And I am. Despite convincing myself I would hate her version to no end, I wound up adoring it. Michelle's will always reign as number 1, that goes a lot deeper than just a character in a comic book movie for me, but I found plenty of room in my heart for Anne's version to fit in nice and cozy. That seems to be a good metaphor for how I wound up feeling about the movie in general. The whole "Us vs Them" Burtonite and Nolanite thing that made me avoid it in the first place is kind of dead for me now. It's all Batman, just different styles of him. I think I'll be giving Begins and TDK another look soon, perhaps a marathon run of all three this weekend, and let myself enjoy and even love them as good alternate versions of Batman, not without flaws but more good than they are bad.

So.....yeah...

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 25 Aug  2017, 15:24
Finally decided to give in and watch this, the girlfriend has the DVD and was like "You NEED to watch it." So, I did. The minute I saw Hathaway I said "Don't get attached, don't get attached, DON'T get attached." The minute she kicked Bruce's cane out from under him and backflipped out the window, I said "Aw f***, I'm attached." When that guy asked if her heels make it hard to walk and she goes "I don't know," spears him with one, and asks with mock curiosity "Do they?" I said "Aw f***, I'm in love."

And I am. Despite convincing myself I would hate her version to no end, I wound up adoring it. Michelle's will always reign as number 1, that goes a lot deeper than just a character in a comic book movie for me, but I found plenty of room in my heart for Anne's version to fit in nice and cozy. That seems to be a good metaphor for how I wound up feeling about the movie in general. The whole "Us vs Them" Burtonite and Nolanite thing that made me avoid it in the first place is kind of dead for me now. It's all Batman, just different styles of him. I think I'll be giving Begins and TDK another look soon, perhaps a marathon run of all three this weekend, and let myself enjoy and even love them as good alternate versions of Batman, not without flaws but more good than they are bad.

So.....yeah...

Since the IMDB boards shut down (essentially ridding the Nolan fans from my life), the only Bat film I've seen is the Adam West one. Hopefully that along with the fact that we have a new Batman can quell the Nolan vs. Burton debates and let us all enjoy the films we like without feeling the need to justify why we enjoy them.

I think the best way to look at Hathaway's character is as a pre-Catwoman cat burglar. Hathaway makes for a very convincing thief and to be honest she may have been a better pre-transformation Selina Kyle. Not that Michelle wasn't great before getting pushed out the window but that shy, nerdish, secretary type is a departure from the character's roots (although it did make her an excellent match for Bruce).

If you're going to look at both characters as Catwoman though, Michelle claws the mouth off Hathaway. Hathaway doesn't have the look or the persona of Catwoman when she 'suits up'. Catwoman is a character like Batman who has duality and I didn't feel like Hathaway was playing two different versions of the character the way Michelle did. I don't even think the word 'cat' is mentioned once throughout TDKR. She also wasn't overly meaningful in the film, you could remove her entirely without losing much of the plot, in fact part of me wonders if the only reason Nolan put her in the film was to be able to kill Bane and Talia without having Batman do it.




So to sum up how I feel; Hathaway was a better pre-Catwoman Selina Kyle, Pfeiffer remains the only live action Catwoman since the 60's in my book and if anyone maintains Hathaway WAS playing Catwoman then I'll counter that Pfeiffer's Catwoman would eat her before a cat nap.

For me I look at them as alternate dimension versions of a character, lol. As in they exist in two different worlds. So I don't bother comparing and contrasting. If I did though Anne's is way out of her league.

Quote from: riddler on Fri, 25 Aug  2017, 16:23
If you're going to look at both characters as Catwoman though, Michelle claws the mouth off Hathaway. Hathaway doesn't have the look or the persona of Catwoman when she 'suits up'. Catwoman is a character like Batman who has duality and I didn't feel like Hathaway was playing two different versions of the character the way Michelle did. I don't even think the word 'cat' is mentioned once throughout TDKR. She also wasn't overly meaningful in the film, you could remove her entirely without losing much of the plot, in fact part of me wonders if the only reason Nolan put her in the film was to be able to kill Bane and Talia without having Batman do it.

Haha, don't forget Batman did kill Talia in the end. ;)

I thought the reason why Nolan made Catwoman kill Bane was to point out how foolish it was for Batman to take a stance against guns in the first place, considering she saved his life with his OWN machine-gun wielding Batpod.  ::)

In fact, it appears it was Nolan's way of saying gun violence is the only solution to disorder, as he said this in an interview.

Quote
I didn't know Batman didn't kill people when I signed on for the project. It was David [Goyer] who broke that news. And I was like, 'How do you make that work?' I said to the MPAA on The Dark Knight: 'Do you have any idea how hard it is to make a contemporary action film where the protagonist doesn't carry a gun? Doesn't kill people?

Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&lpg=PP1&pg=PR9#v=onepage&q=I%20didn't%20know%20Batman%20didn't%20kill%20people&f=false

Hathawaywoman was okay, but she just wasn't in the film enough for me to form an emotional connection. She's one of the most forgettable incarnations of the character in that regard.

She's a supporting character and performs that function very well. The narrative of TDKRises simply doesn't require as much of Catwoman as BR did. I enjoy Hathaway when she's on screen but don't miss her when she's gone. She's in the story enough for me and, I think, enough for the story.

Plus, I really love her outfit in TDKRises. It's cat-like but still in line with the form follows function aesthetic Nolan preferred. It's a good balance.

I'd love to see Catwoman wear her purple dress and green cape outfit in a movie at some point though.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 26 Aug  2017, 15:52I'd love to see Catwoman wear her purple dress and green cape outfit in a movie at some point though.

That's my favourite Catwoman costume. It's elegant and a lot less trashy than some of her more recent outfits. It was also the first of her many comic book costumes to incorporate the classic cat-eared cowl (not counting the earlier masks that resembled real cat heads).


I love that they used it in Batman: The Brave and the Bold. That look + Nika Futterman's Newmaresque voice = feline perfection.

As Vicki Vale said, I loooove purple. This would be my preference though. I'm not that big on the dress look.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oxbqnF-7DGI/V8cZmCv7BjI/AAAAAAADpo8/Iem2hLEUVYQ9SBE_tYSGk3gkHwLPwcl3wCLcB/s1600/Catwoman%252C%2BJim%2BBalent.jpg)

Alternatively, the grey look from BTAS would also be great to see. If they can present WW just like the comics with a short skirt and flowing long hair, they shouldn't have a problem giving us an unapologetically female Catwoman.

My favorite Catwoman outfit is the Darwyn Cooke suit. A pretty simple black body suit, zipper in the front, oversized zipper ring and cat-motif goggles. Simple but it says everything you need to know about Catwoman.

I also like that one. It's a good thing women throw themselves at me (and not traffic) and like wearing this stuff.  :D

You play dress up with your blowup dolls? That is ADORABLE.

Hathaway did ok, but she didn't really have any acting chemistry with Bale.

Also her Catwoman costume was very boring. If and when Catwoman does appear in the DCEU I hope that she gets a way better costume.

Though she couldn't do much to improve the script she was given, I think I still might have preferred Rachel Weisz as Catwoman.