I've ignored this show until now, assuming it would be another Smallville spinoff in the style of the Aquaman pilot. But it's starting to look quite interesting. Here are some pics of Green Arrow's costume and Deathstroke's mask from Comic-Con.
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I hope the characters wear proper costumes in this show, not just hoodies and trench coats. I've had enough of superhero shows where the heroes look like ordinary people (Mutant X, Smallville, Birds of Prey, Heroes, etc). I preferred it back in the 90s when production teams went to some effort to make the heroes and villains look like they did in the comics (The Flash and Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman being my two favourite examples).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDQBHIvx1eM&list=CL40vS0jNgG8o&index=0&feature=plcp
I don't know much about the Green Arrow comics, so I can't comment on how faithful this will be to the source material. But I'm sufficiently intrigued to watch the first episode when it debuts in October.
What does everyone else think? Does this have the potential to be the next great superhero show? Or will it end up being quickly forgotten like last year's Wonder Woman pilot?
The thing is with the green arrow there's a big age scope there in the comics. Most superheroes stay relatively the same age for most of their runs; Peter Parker is always a teenager/20's, Bruce Wayne never hits age 50, Clark Kent is ageless. Green Arrow has comics age 20 and with him as an old wise man. So once you say green arrow will be adapted, it's unclear what kind of adaption we will get. Seems this will be different from Smallville as this wont be just an origin story, we'll see him as the Green Arrow here.
Anyone know when it starts?
I'm getting tired of adaptations that deliberately strip away the comic book aspects, i.e. calling this Arrow instead of Green Arrow, calling it Starling City instead of Star City, plus it doesn't look like Oliver even has a mask.
I haven't heard it from the people on this show yet but I'm sure there's been the inevitable "He's not really a superhero 'cause he has no powers, blah blah blah" talk that I'm sick of hearing, too.
Still, I'm interested to see where it goes. We need a good comic book adaptation on TV (and in DC's case, we need a good non-Batman comic adaptation), so I hope it's good. That Deathstroke mask is definitely more comic book-like than anything they tried to do with him in Smallville.
QuoteAnyone know when it starts?
The first episode is scheduled for October 10th, which happens to be my birthday (and the birthday of Court of Owls Talon William Cobb, Dick Grayson's great grandfather).
Here's a trailer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk_ji5Yu_Mg
QuoteI'm getting tired of adaptations that deliberately strip away the comic book aspects, i.e. calling this Arrow instead of Green Arrow, calling it Starling City instead of Star City, plus it doesn't look like Oliver even has a mask.
I haven't heard it from the people on this show yet but I'm sure there's been the inevitable "He's not really a superhero 'cause he has no powers, blah blah blah" talk that I'm sick of hearing, too.
Still, I'm interested to see where it goes. We need a good comic book adaptation on TV (and in DC's case, we need a good non-Batman comic adaptation), so I hope it's good. That Deathstroke mask is definitely more comic book-like than anything they tried to do with him in Smallville.
My feelings exactly. Warner Bros is sitting on a goldmine of comic book franchises, and they have no idea how to adapt any of them. They're entirely dependent on visionary directors like Donner, Burton and Nolan. And as soon as those guys move on, WB doesn't have a clue what to do with its properties. Any other studio would have capitalised on the recent popularity of the genre and made a dozen films by now. But the folks at Warner Bros don't understand the appeal of these franchises to begin with, so they don't know where to start. Marvel Films is running rings around them at the moment.
Personally I think they should focus on making a Flash movie next. He's my third favourite DC hero and one they could easily adapt, provided the right people were involved (and that doesn't necessarily mean Nolan, Goyer and Snyder). We've already seen the Flash can work in a live-action medium, costume and all. It's interesting to note that the networks originally didn't want him to wear the iconic suit in the 90s TV show. Apparently they wanted him to wear a hooded tracksuit instead, which is basically what ended up happening on Smallville. But the show's producers fought for the costume, and the result speaks for itself. I mean, which one of these guys looks more like the Flash, and which would you rather watch fighting super villains on a weekly basis?
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And yes, I know the Smallville version is meant to be Bart Allen, not Barry. But the point still stands.
Hopefully this Arrow series will break the trend and embrace the character's comic book origins. Comics are a visual medium after all, and the iconography plays an important role in the characters' appeal. It's hard to tell from the trailer, but it does look like Oliver's wearing a mask under his hood in some shots. Though I might be wrong about that. I'll be really disappointed if Deathstroke only wears his orange and blue mask in one scene, or if the rest of his costume turns out to be black leather. We'll just have to wait until October to find out. But I'll definitely check out the first episode.
I agree about the title as well – why not just call it Green Arrow? I honestly don't get that. It's as if ever since The Dark Knight was a hit, filmmakers are trying to avoid including the hero's name in the title of their adaptations.
According to that trailer he only calls himself "Arrow" as well.
Perhaps they are afraid of confusing audiences with Green Lantern. If that is the case then, why not get WB and DC heads together and call him "Arrow" when the New52 launched so there is some consistency?!
When DC's new Entertainment dept launched (along with the New52) it was a chance to get the house in order and get these franchised properly exploited - instead there still seems to be the same problems regarding adaptations.
That's a good point. Especially when you consider the coordination that's been happening between the Man of Steel movie and Superman's revised new 52 origin in the comics. There's evidently some synergy going on there, with both the movie and comics reimagining the character along similar trajectories. There's no reason why they couldn't have done the same thing with Green Arrow.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 15 Jul 2012, 18:06I'm getting tired of adaptations that deliberately strip away the comic book aspects, i.e. calling this Arrow instead of Green Arrow, calling it Starling City instead of Star City, plus it doesn't look like Oliver even has a mask.
I haven't heard it from the people on this show yet but I'm sure there's been the inevitable "He's not really a superhero 'cause he has no powers, blah blah blah" talk that I'm sick of hearing, too.
No doubt. In spite of all the success, I still don't think a lot of Hollywood types are completely comfortable making movies about them funny-book characters. There's a very insulting tendency to want to "make things credible"... which, to be frank, I completely, totally, absolutely, 110% blame Chris Nolan for instigating.
I mean, that kinda plays with Smallville because that was set before the age of superheroes. I can accept it there because that's the premise of the show. But so far Arrow looks to exemplify everything that modern comic adaptations shouldn't be.
Called it:
http://blastr.com/2012/08/why-the-guys-behind-arrow.php
Quote"It's interesting to me because we don't really see the show as a superhero show. We see it as more like a crime thriller.
Blah blah blah....
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 22 Aug 2012, 16:35
Called it:
http://blastr.com/2012/08/why-the-guys-behind-arrow.php
Quote"It's interesting to me because we don't really see the show as a superhero show. We see it as more like a crime thriller.
Blah blah blah....
Translation "we have an idea to fit a type of crime thriller we want but instead of making our own character we will take a beloved hero who has never appeared on screen before and adapt him to make the show we want. I'm sure his loyal followers wont mind"
And with that, my interest in this series plummets by 87.2%.
I'll still give it a chance. But it's starting to look like any other generic action show.
While I won't tout it as a cinematic masterpiece, I think The Avengers had the right idea of saying "These are superheroes. It's a comic book world. Deal with it." At this point, I'll take more of Marvel's approach than the "let's make things realistic and deny that they're actually superheroes" take that we're getting here.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 22 Aug 2012, 21:57
While I won't tout it as a cinematic masterpiece, I think The Avengers had the right idea of saying "These are superheroes. It's a comic book world. Deal with it." At this point, I'll take more of Marvel's approach than the "let's make things realistic and deny that they're actually superheroes" take that we're getting here.
And while successful that's what we got with the Nolan bat films;
Nolan had the cast and crew watch blade runner before batman begins and said 'this is what we're making'. Prior to the dark knight he did the same with heat. Both times he said "this is how we're making batman". Why not just make a super hero film like the comics instead of trying to retrofit it for something its not?
Quote from: riddler on Thu, 23 Aug 2012, 05:34Nolan had the cast and crew watch blade runner before batman begins and said 'this is what we're making'. Prior to the dark knight he did the same with heat. Both times he said "this is how we're making batman". Why not just make a super hero film like the comics instead of trying to retrofit it for something its not?
My personal opinion is that it's incredibly ironic that the same performance-minded community that adores highly theatrical stuff like Shakespeare, Phantom of the Opera, opera in general and other stuff can't see the possibilities inherent to "them funny-book characters". There's a real insecurity a lot of a lot of filmmakers have in the source material.
And frankly, a lot of this crap comes down to ego. There's a reason the Steel movie sucks as bad as it does... and it was a foregone conclusion that it would looooooooong before Shaq ever got involved.
Since we're discussing this attitude toward comic book movies, here's Greg Rucka on the Nolan Batman films:
QuoteI think they're exceptionally well-made films that are inherently ashamed of the fact they're about a superhero who calls himself "Batman."
http://ruckawriter.tumblr.com/post/30045442431/what-has-your-opinion-been-on-the-nolan-batman-trilogy
I think Nolan's Bat-trilogy has become a plea for legitimacy from the comic book community. Comic fans desperately want their films to be taken seriously, and by eschewing the conventional comic book movie aesthetics and adopting the visual language of a more critically palatable genre – in this case, that of the crime drama – Nolan's made some headway towards achieving that goal.
I love his Batman films. But like many people on this site, I generally prefer my comic book movies to embrace their fantasy elements and make the most of them. The trick to making a great superhero movie IMO is to do precisely what Richard Donner did – keep it faithful to the source material, but do it really well. It's an absurdly simple strategy, and yet filmmakers hardly ever use it. Everything has to have a subversive spin on it these days.
Grant Morrison recently said:
QuoteIn terms of movies, you can look at The Dark Knight Rises as the conclusion of a trend and The Avengers as the beginning of one. This doesn't mean a return to '60s camp for Batman. The times are different. But I do expect to see things trend toward the fantastic.
http://ifanboy.com/articles/interview-grant-morrison-on-supergods-now-available-in-paperback/
I hope he's right.
I've always found Morrison's work hard to embrace, but I hope he's right about the movie trends too.
I saw the first episode of the Arrow series at a private screening today. Sorry for not doing this as a PM but would a mod/admin be kind enough to let me know how you'd like me to proceed with that? Should I make a spoiler post in a different colour? Should I create a new thread with the word spoiler in the title? Or should I wait until it's on TV before discussing it? Until I get the go ahead, I will not post any spoilers in fear of ruining anything for anyone. I certainly will respond to any PM's I get in the meantime from those asking questions. Here's my general thoughts without spoiling any plot points;
Also the screening was with the 4 main cast members I will post some of their responses to the questions (these are not huge spoilers)
-the cast and crew did speak highly of the show LOST. The first episode has plenty of lost style 'time jumps with a handful of flash backs. The cast and crew did indicate this sort of thing will happen early but it will be cut down. If you watched LOST, it did this pretty much every episode except the first and last. The first 3 seasons had a lot of flash backwards. The last 3 had quite a bit of flashing forward (also amplified by the fact that half the cast goes back in time). They claimed the rationale is that the back story is extremely important but did not want it to be a linear story as it wold take quite a few episodes to get to where we ant to get.
-continuing on the previous point, part of the reason for all the flashbacks is that the entire episode was basically shot like a big puzzle; Quite often they'd show a 'present' scene' and then have a flashback which fills in a missing piece or explained what just happened and/or why it did.
-very minor spoiler here but while many super hero stories try to avoid setting themselves in a specific time period, this once clearly establishes the present as being 2012.
-the topic of smallville came up in the Q and A. Nobody disrespected that series but they basically said they are operating independently. They acknowledged the fact that it must have done something right to stay on the air for 10 seasons and welcomed the comparisons. That being said they will not be handcuffed by any continuity from smallville.
-there's a lot of questions about the star Stephen Amell and why did they not cast Justin Hartley. Seeing the episode and trailer for the full season, the character is very different than smallville and (no disrespect to anyone reading this), a soap opera actor such as Hartley may not have been able to fill that role
-there weren't any big references in the first episode from comic characters coming from outside the immediate Green Arrow verse. But the question came up and the answer was there'd be references to other DC characters and their stomping grounds. They did not say which one. The question of the green lantern came up. The answer was 'never say never' but it doesn't seem to be happening. They did say they'll be shooting it gritty with no super powers, just enhanced skills for the title character and villains.
-this has been brought up in the thread why is the title 'Arrow' and not "Green Arrow'? Amell said the original plan was to call it 'Oliver Queen' and they would have if they could get away with it. He did say the colour green will be prevolent but they felt 'arrow' was the most appropriate title.
-when asked about the comics, here was the vibe; the writes are HUGE comic fans but the cast is being instructed that while they are free to read the comics their source material should be the script. The question was asked 'for fans who want to brush up or learn about the character they are about to see, which comic stories should they read? The answer was green arrow; year one and Green Arrow/Black Canary (the crossovers).
Now to answer the inevitable question of 'will i like it?' I'll just say this: If you can read this post, you will LOVE the pilot episode.
Create a spoiler thread.
I have a non-spoiler question, riddler. Does Green Arrow actually wear a mask under his hood? Or is it just the shadow of the hood over his eyes?
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 29 Aug 2012, 17:33
I have a non-spoiler question, riddler. Does Green Arrow actually wear a mask under his hood? Or is it just the shadow of the hood over his eyes?
no mask just the hood.
That's a shame. Sounds like they really are going for the crime thriller angle.
Apparently the CW is developing a new Wonder Woman show called
Amazon. Heaven forbid they just call it
Wonder Woman. ::)
QuoteUnlike past TV incarnations, it will focus on Wonder Woman as a young, budding superhero, rather than a fully formed defender of liberty. (Think Smallville, but instead of a "no tights, no flights" rule, this show might have a "no bracelets, no crown" mandate.)
http://www.dailyblam.com/news/2012/09/06/the-cw-reportedly-developing-smallville-styled-wonder-woman-tv-series-titled-amazon
A superhero show where the hero isn't actually a superhero? I'm shocked!
why is DC so ashamed of being a comic book on screen?
Dark Knight
Man of Steel
Arrow
Amazon..
Coming up next- Scarlet Speedster, Emerald Knight (reboot of Green Lantern), J'onn Jonzz, and Arthur of Atlantis!
http://badassdigest.com/2012/10/03/morigin-producers-of-cws-arrow-promise-five-year-origin-story/
The more I hear, the less enthused I am.
QuoteProducers also mention that "Green" was dropped from the hero's moniker because it was too "comic-booky,"
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The 5 year origin story thing could go either way depending on the execution, but dropping "Green" from the tittle is pretty silly. I like the "sorta" realistic approach myself, but the color/word "green" is not gonna make the idea of an archer fighting crime against people with guns any less realistic than it already is.
Anyone catch the pilot last night? I was planning on taping it but I forgot all about it.
You can watch the show on the CW's site.
http://www.cwtv.com/shows/arrow/
I saw it yesterday. I actually thought it was pretty cool. While I still think dropping "green" from the name was silly, and it does take some liberties with the mythos (Speedy is Oliver's sister, hi's mom is still around, in a Smallville like twist Olie and Tommy Merlin are best friends), taken on it's own it's a pretty cool action/superhero show. At times it does very much play like a Batman Begins re-hash, but hey even in the comics GA was created as a Batman analogue so that's to be expected. All in all I liked it and will continue to tune in. Not a great show by any means, but a good one.
Watched the first two episodes. Not bad. I'll be checking out more.
Amell is okay. I do kinda miss the more humorous and cocky version that Hartley portrayed in Smallville since he seemed less of a Batman clone.
I think the family dynamics are a good change from the comics so that there's more pressure to his civilian life. Don't care much for the Rachel Dawes reimagining of Dinah or Merlyn, though.
To no one's surprise, Arrow's got the full season pickup:
http://tvline.com/2012/10/22/arrow-full-season-the-cw/
I finally got around to watching the first few episodes. It's ok. Like most CW shows, the writing's not great and the characters feel shallow and unrealistic. It also borrows a little too much from Nolan's Bat trilogy.
But on the upside the action scenes are good, it has a certain gloomy atmosphere to it, and the whole "what happened on the island" back story is fairly compelling. So I'm willing to stick with it for a bit longer. I'm particularly looking forward to seeing the episode written by Geoff Johns.
But as it stands, I don't see it having the same longevity as Smallville. Of course it's possible it will improve as the first season progresses, but we'll just have to wait and see.
You know...I'm actually digging this a lot more than I thought I would. Yes, there are some things right out of the Batman films ("I'm not a hero." "Does it come in purple?" "Digg...help me."), but I like the world and the characters enough to tune in from week to week and I look forward to when the show returns in January.
I've warmed up to Amell. He might not be the actor Bale is, but he manages to pull off the different sides of Oliver in each episode- the spoiled rich kid learning to survive on the island, the douche playboy act, the real Oliver around his family, the grim Oliver in the V.O. and with Diggle, and the Arrow persona itself.
Now, he needs to grow out that facial hair, put on a mask, and call himself Green Arrow already ;)
My favorite episode so far is Damaged, where Oliver gets arrested. The last couple scenes were some of the best in the show, from Oliver's confession of his pain to Diggle to his return to the costume- "You have failed this city."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU9MwhZ1iY8
I wasn't a huge fan of the Huntress episodes that came after (part of it was the actress, part of it was the absence of the island flashbacks), but I liked how Oliver's alliance with Helena lead to her use of the crossbow.
Now, I'm interested to see what happens with the Deathstroke flashbacks and the Daddy Merlyn storyline...
Watched a few of the first episodes. Not bad. This series is maybe to Batman Begins what The Flash was to Batman '89, it almost feels like a spin off series set in a similar "universe".
I watched the first seven or eight episodes, but I couldn't be bothered keeping up with it. It's not bad at all. In fact it's better than I was expecting. But I didn't find any of the characters particularly likeable. And I don't usually watch shows unless there's at least one character I can root for.
Is it just me or does Stephen Amell bear a striking resemblance to Chris O'Donnell?
QuoteThis series is maybe to Batman Begins what The Flash was to Batman '89, it almost feels like a spin off series set in a similar "universe".
That's a good analogy. Pretty much sums up my perspective on the show.
What did people think of this weeks episode? That twist was pretty big to say the least. And for Doctor Who fans, who else expected Alex Kingston's first words to be "Hello sweety"? ;)
^ I bet the writers were tempted to have that as Dinah's first line, yes.
I thought this episode and The Odyssey one were some of the show's best.
It's really been moving forward now, with the addition of Slade Wilson in the flashbacks, giving Felicity Smoak a bigger role, bringing back a better version of Deadshot, and, as of this new episode, planting storylines with Tommy and Laurel that could actually be interesting. I hope we'll get some answers soon on Moira and Malcolm.
A lot of people are predicting that Tommy will be a Harry Osborn/SmallvilleLex type character, but personally since it's been done before, I'd rather see them go in a different direction and keep Malcolm as the show's equivalent to Merlyn.
I agree, it's more interesting to me if Malcolm is the "Merlin" we know from the comics (plus if they're going to to keep on the "realism" beat, are they just gonna reveal that Tommy was a master archer all along?). This is really picking up, I'm glad I kept up with it because the second half of this season has been really good.
Quote(plus if they're going to to keep on the "realism" beat, are they just gonna reveal that Tommy was a master archer all along?)
Exactly. I just don't see it happening. Perhaps that's the point right now, but since I see the show as a reimagining of Green Arrow and not a Smallville-type prequel, I stand by Malcolm Merlyn being the show's Merlyn.
So I've read Green Arrow: Year One, but not the original comic that covered GA's origin. Apparently, Oliver did use grease paint around his eyes as a mask on the island back then:
http://www.bigshinyrobot.com/reviews/archives/45792
Still...it looks better in that comic than it does on the show. And now that we've seen Huntress wearing a domino mask, I don't see why Oliver can't wear the same (but a green one). I'd think it'd take less time to don one than to smear anything around the eyes. And, well, it'd help to give him more of a comic book Green Arrow look.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 1 Mar 2013, 19:28
^ I bet the writers were tempted to have that as Dinah's first line, yes.
I thought this episode and The Odyssey one were some of the show's best.
It's really been moving forward now, with the addition of Slade Wilson in the flashbacks, giving Felicity Smoak a bigger role, bringing back a better version of Deadshot, and, as of this new episode, planting storylines with Tommy and Laurel that could actually be interesting. I hope we'll get some answers soon on Moira and Malcolm.
A lot of people are predicting that Tommy will be a Harry Osborn/SmallvilleLex type character, but personally since it's been done before, I'd rather see them go in a different direction and keep Malcolm as the show's equivalent to Merlyn.
It seems that based on the original setup, the four main characters that will likely be brought through til the end are Oliver, Thea, Laurel, and Tommy. I do actually see him taking the Harry Osborn route; we know it's his destiny to become a villain and his father already is on the show (although not a primary one). I'm thinking that given that they'll probably keep him on the show, if he becomes a serious antagonist, it will either be near the end of the show or done in a manner in which they can 'cure' him and turn him good again ala Harry.
I do think at some point, Oliver will have to have the clicheed epiphany; "I'm a crime fighter, I can't have a life of my own, I envy those who can....." In comic movies, that usually happens in the second film (superman II, batman returns, the dark knight, spider-man 2, iron man 2) so perhaps that will be a plotline for the next season.
I respectfully disagree with those who say the characters are not interesting; there's a handful with interesting enough storylines to want to see how it plays out; deadshot, Thea, tommy and his father, moira, the huntress. Not even counting Oliver himself.
Anyone else see the finale?
SPOILERS:
Gotta say, they tricked me with who was going to die. At the start, with Det. Lance confessing his involvement with "The Hood," I thought for sure that the cop was going to be a goner by the end and be the obligatory new conflict that'd split Oliver and Laurel up again. This was cemented even further by his phone call to Laurel down in the tunnels.
Then of course, Digg gets wounded, which prompted me to wonder if Roy Harper's promotion to series regular in Season 2 (and Thea's hinted "wicked aim") would mean that next season would be all about the origin of Speedy/Arsenal/Red Arrow as Oliver's new partner in the field.
But then Tommy came to Laurel's rescue. It didn't occur to me that he'd be killed off at all until Laurel looked back and the place blew up.
Aside from killing off Tommy, I thought it was a solid finale. As people can see in reading my posts, I found the show got better and better as it went on and I've enjoyed all the episodes since the show's return from hiatus (starting with Home Invasion).
Here's to next season, which looks like it could take inspiration from Batman: No Man's Land (though the writers, funny enough, have cited The Cult).
confirmed that Nightwing will be a part of the 2nd season played by Ian Somerhalder.
Really? I thought that was an April Fool's joke:
http://www.imdb.com/news/ni50326732/
EDIT: It was.
Marc Guggenheim himself says it's not happening: https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/341969176358965248
I also really liked the show and didnt see that ending coming. In the comics does the character of Tommy play any importance? I couldn't believe they killed him off and that half of the city was destroyed.
Yes and no. In the comics, Oliver has an arch-nemesis named Merlyn.
Around the same time that the CW's Arrow started up, the New 52 comic reboot showed that Oliver used to be friends with a man named Tommy Merlyn and it was heavily implied that he would grow up to eventually become the Merlyn villain in the comics, which obviously lead fans to think that the TV show would take the same route.
Of course when Malcolm Merlyn was introduced and revealed as The Dark Archer in the show, this sparked a debate on which one would be the Merlyn from the comics: Malcolm or Tommy or both? As ElCuervo and I predicted, it was Malcolm.
Ah thank you. That was very informative
I have a few more episode of Arrow to watch. So far it seems to keep itself from being too formulaic with the use of flashbacks which is quite clever.
Quote from: Paul (ral) on Thu, 6 Jun 2013, 14:26
I have a few more episode of Arrow to watch. So far it seems to keep itself from being too formulaic with the use of flashbacks which is quite clever.
Agreed, I find myself my interesting in the flashback stuff than the present storyline.
Bumping this with the latest Season 2 news:
We'll be getting a whole host of new villains this season including:
- Summer Glau as Isabel Rochev
- Michael Jai White as the Bronze Tiger, who'll be teaming up with China White
- Kevin Alejandro as Sebastian Blood, a take on the Teen Titans villain Brother Blood
We'll also see some new heroes:
- Caity Lotz will appear as Black Canary. The CW President spilled the beans yesterday on her identity, which is rather intriguing, so if you're curious, here's the link:
http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-season-2-the-black-canarys-identity-revealed/14664
- Barry Allen will appear in episodes 8, 9, and 20, with the potential of gaining superpowers in Arrow and spinning off into his own show.
Season 2 sizzle reel trailer: http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-season-2-sizzle-reel-guest-star-news/14628
Speculation is that the Blood character will take on a Deacon Blackfire-type role in Starling City, since the executive producers admitted to turning to Batman: The Cult for inspiration.
The Black Canary bit could be interesting, but I think it's going to get tiresome if they keep introducing thees comic book characters through other characters. Here, Oliver's sister is nicknamed Speedy before we meet Roy Harper (and has the middle name Dearden), Tommy Merlyn seemed like he was Merlyn until we met his dad and found out he was the Dark Archer, Yao Fei was in the Green Arrow outfit before Oliver, the first Deathstroke we met was actually Wintergreen, and now it looks like there'll be a Black Canary before Laurel dons the outfit. At least, in the latter, there's some precedence for it in the comics where Dinah took on the role after her mother.
Surprisingly, the trailer as well as interviews with the cast and crew seem to indicate that Oliver will adopt the moniker of the Green Arrow in the future, as well as take on different tactics and no longer be the Punisher-with-a-bow style vigilante that we saw in the first season. I'm all for this new direction.
I remember back in 2005, after Batman Begins, many of us thought that Nolan's "realism" with Batman was just to introduce us into the new take and, with the Narrows fear gas incident at the end of the movie, the series would evolve into a more comic book-like world. The Scarecrow could come back in a full out costume (with many people saying that Crane wasn't really Scarecrow until the end and the straitjacket look was the character's costume from now on). Ra's al Ghul could come back through the Lazarus Pit. The Narrows incident could've created all these different Rogues Gallery supervillains.
As we now know, this never happened. However, it feels as if Arrow will actually be going in this direction, if Oliver's going to eventually adopt the Green Arrow moniker and, even bigger, superpowers are going to be introduced into this "realistic" world. The showrunners have confirmed that we will see Barry Allen with superpowers- it's not just going to be a superfast suit, like GI Joe: Rise of the Cobra- and in the iconic red and yellow suit, so they are definitely breaking their previous rule of no superpowers.
Perhaps by the end of Arrow, Oliver will actually have the mask, the goatee, and the Green Arrow name, with Thea as Speedy, Roy as Arsenal, and Laurel as Black Canary, complete with Canary Cry.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 31 Jul 2013, 17:57
Perhaps by the end of Arrow, Oliver will actually have the mask, the goatee, and the Green Arrow name, with Thea as Speedy, Roy as Arsenal, and Laurel as Black Canary, complete with Canary Cry.
This has me intrigued. I watched the first five or six episodes of Arrow when it first started, but I quickly lost interest. I'd be lying if I said I was a big fan of the Green Arrow character in the first place and I'm not keen on CW shows in general. I also can't stand John Barrowman, so his presence on the show was a big turnoff for me. But the second season does sound promising. Especially if you're right about the show taking a turn towards the fantastic.
I'm definitely going to watch the Barry Allen episodes and I might start watching the show regularly again. But do you think I'd need to watch the rest of season one first? Or will season two be sufficiently self-contained that I can just dive in without being too confused?
I think you probably could jump right into Season 2 without needing to see the rest of Season 1, though I won't know for sure until Season 2 premieres. A lot has happened since you left off, but a number of the Season 1 story arcs are finished. Without giving anything away, I don't think Oliver's going to be consulting "The List" anytime soon, the mysteries surrounding Barrowman's Merlyn and Oliver's parents have been resolved, and the story arc of Oliver versus Fyers on the island is pretty much done, too.
I will say that the show definitely gets better in Season 1, or else I wouldn't have stuck with it either. To me, "The Odyssey" episode- which mainly consists of an adventure on the island with Slade Wilson- was the turning point. The writers had a better sense of what the show would be and stuck to that, and, by the last few episodes of the first season, I found the present-day stuff to be a lot more interesting than the island flashbacks and the finale was far better than I ever thought the show could be, back when I watched the pilot.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 31 Jul 2013, 18:19
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 31 Jul 2013, 17:57
Perhaps by the end of Arrow, Oliver will actually have the mask, the goatee, and the Green Arrow name, with Thea as Speedy, Roy as Arsenal, and Laurel as Black Canary, complete with Canary Cry.
This has me intrigued. I watched the first five or six episodes of Arrow when it first started, but I quickly lost interest. I'd be lying if I said I was a big fan of the Green Arrow character in the first place and I'm not keen on CW shows in general. I also can't stand John Barrowman, so his presence on the show was a big turnoff for me. But the second season does sound promising. Especially if you're right about the show taking a turn towards the fantastic.
I'm definitely going to watch the Barry Allen episodes and I might start watching the show regularly again. But do you think I'd need to watch the rest of season one first? Or will season two be sufficiently self-contained that I can just dive in without being too confused?
It's a progressive storyline. Sometimes they had episodes that were kind of one offs (didn't build upon previous storylines or open new ones). I myself haven't made it through the season yet, I decided I'll wait for the blu ray in september.
I don't fancy watching the whole of the first season, but if you guys say it's worth it then I might check out some of the later episodes.
Am I to take it that Queen doesn't don the classic costume at all in the first season?
He has the costume from the start.
There are a couple of slow episodes but I think you should like most of them SN. You will probably get a kick out of the references in the show.
Truth be told, I know very little about the Green Arrow comics. So most of the references would probably be lost on me.
I've heard they had some DC villains from outside the Green Arrow comics make appearances too. Like Deadshot. But wasn't he depicted as just an ordinary sniper in a leather jacket?
^ Geoff Johns brought Deadshot back on the show, with the red eyepiece. One scene implied that Lawton had the death wish that he has in the comics, which I appreciated (but expected from a Johns-written episode). He's not in the full Marshall Rogers get-up now, but I think it's a step-up from his first appearance, as well as the previous live action incarnation in Smallville. The character is likely to return in Season 2.
As for comic influences, from what I've seen, most of the show draws on Green Arrow: Year One and The Longbow Hunters, with one scene in the "Salvation" episode that felt right out of the latter comic.
If I'm not mistaken, The Longbow Hunters was when they changed Oliver's outfit from the Robin Hood-style one to the hooded look that's more prevalent today. To be honest, I think the Arrow costume looks close enough to the Longbow Hunters one. What would make this Oliver look more like the character would be a mask instead of the face paint (though even that has some precedence in the Silver Age origin comic as I noted earlier in this thread) and the goatee, rather than any changes to the wardrobe.
You clearly know a lot more about Green Arrow than me, BatmAngelus. If I do start watching the show again I'll have to keep pestering you with questions about the mythology.
D'you think you might write a comic analysis thread on this series at some point?
I might start one up at some point (maybe when the first season is available on DVD) to get at least the Green Arrow: Year One and Longbow Hunters comparisons up, as well as some of the obvious stuff that got covered in the show, such as Deathstroke/Slade Wilson and Wintergreen, Huntress/Helena Bertinelli, Shado, etc. I have a feeling that Season Two will be more rife with comic references.
Well I'll look forward to reading it if you do decide to write one. And while I may not know much about Green Arrow, I do have a decent knowledge of The Flash. So maybe I could pitch in with the analysis of those episodes.
It looks like Ra's al Ghul and the League of Assassins might be making an appearance in the upcoming season: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/movienewsandreviews/news/?a=85631
I might have been worried about this had it happened during season one. But since season 2 is aiming to introduce super powered characters, it just might work. I hope they'll stick closer to the comics than Nolan did; make reference to the Lazarus Pits, to his eastern ancestry, to his environmental interests, to his use of chemical weaponry, etc. And it'd be nice to see Ubu (not Bane - Ubu!) make an appearance too.
The thing is, I'm not sure if this is actually true. The source comes from a fansite called TheGreenArrow.net, with no citation of where they heard this.
http://www.thegreenarrow.net/arrow-episode-2x05-titled-the-demons-head-synopsis/
There have been no reports from official press, like EW or Deadline or TV Lines, or statements from the executive producers in the press or on their twitter accounts. For now, I'm taking it with a grain of salt until they come out and it's confirmed by someone else.
Well, looks like I'm half-right. The title of the episode is not Demon's Head, but League of Assassins, according to showrunner Marc Guggenheim's twitter:
https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/369969538982756352
So while we are definitely getting the League of Assassins next season, I'm not sure if we'll see Ra's al Ghul, at least not yet.
It makes sense since the Merlyn character in the comics is a member, Malcolm Merlyn referenced being trained by "a man" in Nanda Parbat in Season 1, and this season will also feature Lady Shiva's daughter, Sin, played by Bex Taylor-Klaus:
http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/178791-the-killings-bex-taylor-klaus-joins-arrow-as-dc-character-sin
Anyone get the DVD/blu ray of the first season? I just did; 4 discs for the blu ray, about to pop in disc 2 today. I actually never finished the first season so I should be caught up by monday.
season 2 underway, interesting turn of events. Seems it'll be following the movie pattern of super heros giving up their moniker in their second adventure.
When they asked Oliver at the end of the episode what he would like to be called (instead of Hood), I couldn't help blurting out "Mr. Coffee". My friends laughed pretty hard at that.
If that was indeed BC helping Roy with the rapists, I approve of the costume design. It reflects the comics while being logical at the same time (it's cold at night, she wouldn't be an effective crime fighter if she loses her legs to hypothermia!).
I'm disappointed that Katie Cassidy appears to have lost weight (i.e. bowing to "all women have to look like super models" pressure). In the first season she was pretty but also looked like a real person, in last night's episode she looked like just another CW Barbie.
Second season's off to a good start. While I know the show will get accused of ripping on The Dark Knight with the copycat vigilantes, I think the show, by virtue of being a TV series, was able to explore the idea more and have it play a bigger role in Oliver's character development, leading him to get rid of the nickname "The Hood."
Now he needs to graduate from "The Arrow" to "Green Arrow." ;D
Overall, the storylines feel a lot more connected than it did in the beginning of the first season. Glad to see Roy and The Arrow working together- the possible beginnings of Green Arrow and Speedy/Red Arrow?
Quentin's middle name is Larry. Nice. (Larry Lance is the name of Dinah Lance's dad in the comics).
In the flashbacks, it seems that we've got a bit of a love triangle among Oliver, Shado, and Slade. I just hope that Slade's jealousy doesn't become a huge part in his evolution into becoming Deathstroke. His burns from the attack make me wonder what'll happen with him next. As for Shado, her romance with Oliver makes me wonder if the show will bring in their son, Robert, in future seasons.
Also, it looks like the prison ship may take Oliver off the island and could explain how Oliver joined up with the Russian mob.
The Ra's mention was a treat. Looks like Malcolm's hooded costume was a League of Assassins uniform and the new Black Canary is a former member. Since Sin is Lady Shiva's daughter in the comics, we might see Shiva too. (Funny enough, Kelly Hu/China White plays the most recent Shiva on Arkham Origins).
I do wonder how the current Black Canary is going to tie into Laurel's evolution into Black Canary. Or will it? Personally, I hope she is the last of the "fake out prototypes" on the show. We met Tommy Merlyn before we met the actual Merlyn villain. We met "Deathstroke" before meeting Slade Wilson and finding out the man in the mask was Wintergreen. Not to mention that Oliver's outfit actually comes from Yao-Fei and Shado. The showrunners like tricking us, but if they keep using the same trick, it's going to get old.
After last night's episode, Crucible (SPOILERS to follow, obviously)...
I've read a lot of fans hoping that Sara Lance stays on as the real Black Canary and that the writers stop trying to turn Laurel into BC and just make her a red herring character like Tommy Merlyn instead. Honestly, I can't blame them.
There's a reason why so many people- including comic book fans- champion for Oliver to get with Felicity Smoak instead. This season hasn't exactly done Laurel's character any favors, from unfairly blaming The Arrow for Tommy's death to drowning herself in pills, wine, and self-pity despite all the people in her life trying to help her. While her pain comes from an understandable place, it doesn't make her very likable, especially when compared to how the other characters seem to have found better ways to deal with their pain.
I thought that the one advantage Laurel had over Sara (other than having the name Dinah) is her history with Oliver, but even now it turns out that Oliver and Sara had a much deeper history than we even knew about.
Not to mention that Sara:
- Has a reason to take on the canary persona, since she was the one with the pet canary as a kid
- Is a skilled fighter and already works well with Oliver in the field
- Already has the Watchtower and the partnership with Sin
- Has the outfit down and looks more like the comic book character than any of the previous live action actresses, including Katie Cassidy's Laurel. Sure, she's not in fishnets, but the costume looks much closer to the character than what Rachel Skarsten and Alaina Huffman wore in Birds of Prey and Smallville, respectively.
The mask does evoke the Golden Age Black Canary, Dinah Drake, though, which leads me to fear that they're using Sara as their version of the first Black Canary and that they'll kill her off (for a third time and for good?) to make way for Laurel to adopt her persona and possibly don the blonde wig to fool people into thinking she's the same person.
It's not out of the question, but it'd be a shame since Sara's Canary feels like the genuine article already and I haven't read anyone who's actually championing for Laurel to turn into Black Canary, especially after seeing Sara's BC in action.
Also, I was predicting that they were going the Harvey Dent route with Sebastian Blood, but it looks like he's been Brother Blood from the start. Wish his mask didn't look so much like Scarecrow's though.
Can't wait for "The League of Assassins" next week.
I've decided to give this show a chance by spending the last few weeks watching the entire first season, and getting up to date with the second season. And I have to say that despite some soap opera-like acting, I got to say this show is rather decent. The reason is because the story is surprisingly more compelling than I thought it would be.
And even though that this show does rip off ideas from Nolan's Batman films and tries to "ground itself in reality", I'd say Arrow's plot and character development is far, far more satisfying. Not only because the advantage of being a TV series allows to flesh out ideas better than a movie, but even the plot has some logic by comparison. How? By having Arrow being consistently pursued by the police for being a vigilante. By not having Arrow adopt a half-assed moral code that only gets broken whenever it's convenient to the story. By having more people initially suspecting that Oliver Queen is the vigilante because of his disappearance for five years (in contrast how nobody in TDKR ever makes the connection that Bruce/Batman disappeared, reappeared, "died" etc). By making Arrow go through his experiences AND actually learn from them - which is something Nolan's Batman never did. There is actually character development with Oliver Queen; he goes from being determined to wipe out everyone responsible for corrupting Starling City at all costs until Tommy's death and the destruction of the Glades made him reconsider his crusade. And after capturing the copycats, Oliver realises he can still save Starling City without always resorting to lethal force.
Even the Gordon-surrogate in Quentin Lance has great character development. He goes from passionately leading a task force to bring Arrow down, to becoming grateful for his rescuing of Laurel for more than one occasion, and even works with Arrow for cases that the police can't solve. And then Quentin actually faces consequences with this alliance by losing his job as a detective while desperately trying to warn the police about Merlyn's attack on the Glades (of course, I'd imagine that Quentin would've been arrested for obstruction of justice instead of being demoted to patrolman, but still...).
But I do have some complaints about the show: mainly the acting. Some of the acting, especially by Stephen Amell is pretty ordinary, and the guy who plays Malcolm Merlyn is pretty awful. Brother Blood's lack-of-costume is a clear ripoff of Cillian Murphy's Scarecrow, which sucks for me personally because I always thought Murphy's Scarecrow was a crappy design to begin with. At least Brother Blood's mask looks cooler. :p Thea Queen can be annoying at times and a brat, and it's rather dumb how a girl fresh out of high school can run a club a year later. And really, the secret of her being Merlyn's biological daughter is a bit of a soap opera cliche. That being said, Arrow is still better than what I expected, and I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the second season.
By the way, when Merlyn explained his resurrection to Moira by saying "death is an illusion in some parts of the world and I learned to be convincing", does anyone else get the feeling that the Lazarus Pit is going to miss out again? Because judging from what he had said, it sounds like he is trained to fake his own death.
Glad you gave the show a chance, Laughing Fish. I agree with your assessment of the story being more compelling than expected and how the format lends itself to more character development. As you said, I don't mind the similarities to the Nolan Batman since they manage to take those ideas and explore them further (i.e. Oliver throwing off suspicion that he's "The Hood" in Season 1).
I believe Merlyn simply faked being dead and healed his wounds in between seasons. Judging from his last scene with Moira regarding Ra's Al Ghul, Merlyn seems to have been cast out from the League, so if the Pit exists in this world, he wouldn't have access to it anyway.
Exciting developments have occurred over the past few episodes (SPOILERS):
Slade Wilson as Deathstroke makes his appearance as he kills Sebastian Blood's cronies as punishment for Blood's incompetence, despite Blood throwing off suspicion that he is the masked freak by sending one of his henchmen in disguise to fool Laurel and Arrow. Laurel's drug addiction has cost her job as the Assistant DA. Bronze Tiger escapes and tries to deliver Merlyn's earthquake emitter prototype to a buyer, until he was defeated by Arrow and Roy Harper; Oliver reveals his secret identity to Roy to earn his trust and prevent him from following the same path as Wilson did after being injected by the Mirakuru. Ra's al Ghul's other daughter, Nyssa, kidnap's Sara's mother in an attempt to force her to return to the League of Assassins (while revealing the two were in a romantic relationship). Sara rescues her mother and convinces Nyssa she won't return, and now the entire Lance family know that Sara is alive...but Laurel's drunkenness and bitterness causes her to blame Sara for taking Oliver away from her and breaking up the family.
It's only a matter of time till Ra's al Ghul appears. There's an upcoming episode within the few weeks titled "Birds of Prey", with Nyssa NOT being the antagonist (at least from what I heard). I'd imagine that Huntress will return, though I wouldn't be surprised if she'll be the villain since her vendetta against her father is painting her a darker picture.
As much as I like the show, I have to say I'm a bit disappointed in the way Ra's Al Ghul looks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_85zQHJFKfQ
While the costume looks fine, I was hoping they'd at least give him more of a Ra's look with his hair. I thought the same thing when they first cast Matt Nable. It's not so much that it's a change from the comics, it's that he just looks like a regular bruiser when he's, well, the Demon's Head.
Then again, I shouldn't be surprised as the only actors to go through changes in appearance have been Stephen Amell in the flashbacks and Kelly Hu as China White and those are mainly achieved through wigs.
For now:
Arrow's Ra's costume > Dark Knight Trilogy Ra's costume
Arrow Ra's hair/facial hair < Dark Knight Trilogy Ra's hair/facial hair
Since the actor playing Ra's is an Aussie, it's logical that he speaks in a refined English accent like Nyssa. When he rose out of the pool I honestly thought he was coming out of the Lazarus Pit at first.
Hey BatmAngelus, what did you think of last season overall? I thought it was going great during the first half, but in all honesty I thought the quality dipped a bit in the second half. The writing surrounding Deathstroke didn't convince me that much. So far, I've enjoyed The Flash more than the first couple of episodes of Arrow this season too.
I remember liking the second half of the season, but I do agree that Deathstroke's motivation should've been stronger for him to have turned that evil and I didn't like the idea of killing off Shado (who is a major character in the Green Arrow comics) to do it.
I also feel that Season 3's been uneven so far. The villain of the week format needs to take a backseat in favor of the overall story. I'm in the camp that doesn't like Laurel and felt that either Sara should've just stayed as Canary or Sara should've stayed dead since the pilot and Laurel's journey to becoming Canary could've replaced her much less sympathetic and much more irritating arc in Season 2.
I'm also kinda perplexed as to why DC wouldn't let the Arrow writers have Brandon Routh as Ted Kord instead of Ray Palmer. The character practically IS Kord- Kord Industries had been mentioned before, Kord is wealthy and has the wisecracking persona that Routh's character has, and the Blue Beetle armor would make a lot more sense for him to be developing than the Atom, especially since they want this show to deal with less super powers. Hopefully some kind of use for the Atom plays into the future.
Still, the upcoming Ra's episode looks promising.
The Flash crossover and the episode with Ra's al Ghul were the best episodes of the season so far.
The Brave and The Bold episode gave the show much needed fun that I thought was lacking this season. The contrast of ideologies between Flash and Arrow was a nice touch, although that dialogue between Oliver and Lyla Michaels came across as patronizing to the audience. But it was still cool to see the supporting cast from both shows come together for a second time again.
I'm not impressed with Matt Nable as Ra's al Ghul, but I do like this take better than Liam Neeson's in terms of characterization; it feels closer to what I had in mind in the comics. I think it's likely confirmed that the Lazarus Pit exists in this show because Ra's commented about being challenged for the first time in 67 years. That and
*SPOILER* Oliver is mortally stabbed at the end of his fight with Ra's. From hereon in, I think this season is going to turn for the best.
Brandon Routh has never impressed me as an actor, but here he plays Ray Palmer with a lot more charisma and confidence than anything he has ever done. Although I notice that Palmer comes across as a little stalkerish whenever he bumps into Felicity (cue in Superman Returns haters 8)).
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue, 9 Dec 2014, 18:31
I also feel that Season 3's been uneven so far. The villain of the week format needs to take a backseat in favor of the overall story. I'm in the camp that doesn't like Laurel and felt that either Sara should've just stayed as Canary or Sara should've stayed dead since the pilot and Laurel's journey to becoming Canary could've replaced her much less sympathetic and much more irritating arc in Season 2.
I wonder why Sara Lance had to be killed off too. I'd prefer she stayed alive but shedding away from her Canary identity and become completely faithful to the League's cause; similar to being brainwashed and Laurel taking over her place as the Canary. I think it would work because we saw Oliver and Sara last season expressing different point of views morally.
I don't hate Laurel as much as lots of people do. She might have acted irrationally at times but I always thought anything she was doing was either based on her guilt for Tommy's death (which is why she turned to drugs and alcohol and taking her anger out on Arrow), or the trauma of dangerously coming close to getting killed on several occasions. Let's not forget that her sister cheated on her boyfriend, and they both came back when they were presumed dead. To be honest, I really don't like Thea. Spoiled brat who needs to be slapped. Her small fight with Arrow was pure comedy gold.
But I'll admit there's something about Katie Cassidy's demeanor that seems off to me. Kinda...to put it very blunty - "bitchy". :-\
I think it could be Katie Cassidy's demeanor that puts people off
This latest episode really turned things around and was the best one of the season so far. I have a friend who hated the crossover and doesn't like The Flash, but I think the Flash has had the better season to date when it comes to moving the story along. Here, it felt like Arrow had been waiting until this episode to really get things going and I was grateful. Hopefully, they can keep it up like this for the rest of the season. Interested to see where they go from here.
As for Laurel, I'm all for flawed characters, but it feels like the writers have been deliberately trying to make her the most irrational one of the group who continues to make poor decisions. It doesn't help that they've turned Felicity from a one-off guest character into practically the new female lead, brought in a different actress/character as Black Canary who further overshadowed Laurel, and wrote full episodes featuring those characters while Laurel was completely absent.
Some brilliant editor somehow added Lightsabers to Ra's al Ghul's action scenes in the mid-season finale. 8) WARNING - contains spoilers
http://youtu.be/yzJKPCsx3B4 (http://youtu.be/yzJKPCsx3B4)
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 12 Dec 2014, 10:03
From hereon in, I think this season is going to turn for the best.
I was wrong. Oh dear god, I was SO wrong. :(
I don't know about you BatmAngelus, but I thought this season has turned into a complete and utter disaster. Not only has this season progressively gotten worse, but it also ruined the entire show too. I won't give too much away but I'll use this as an example: how in the hell can the police and the entire public be fooled into thinking that Roy Harper was the Arrow all along...when everyone knows Roy was rescued by Arrow moments before he was about to be executed on LIVE television by a desperate maniac in season one?! Did the writers expect the audience to forget that little piece of continuity?
This season has managed to screw up nearly all of its well-developed characters: from Quentin Lance to Malcolm Merlyn, from Felicity Smoak to Oliver Queen too. The way the writers rehashed Lance's petty contempt for Arrow/Oliver again in the worst possible manner is unforgivable. All that good work in building Lance's arc is now ruined.
I gave this show a lot of credit in the first two seasons for doing a better job than Nolan's Batman movies when it came to character development, how the police reacting realistically to vigilantes, how the hero covers his tracks to avoid suspicion and the hero's relationships with other characters. Arrow was accused of copying ideas in Nolan's films, but I thought the show actually explored those ideas and not pay lip service to them. And I still stand by that.
But everything in this season is just as bad as everything I've complained about in Nolan's movies: poor character development, illogical plot points, poor motivations and illogical plot twists. For example, Oliver teaming up with Merlyn despite the fact that Merlyn was not only responsible for the Glades massacre, but also manipulated Thea into killing Sara and got everyone involved with the whole mess with Ra's al Ghul, is one of the worst examples of idiotic writing I've ever seen since Two-Face spared the Joker in TDK, and Batman framing himself for Two-Face's crimes at the end of the movie. I now hold the writers in the same level of disdain as I have for Nolan and Goyer.
It's such a shame that a promising show is falling apart like this. The only way for things to go back to normal is if a crossover with The Flash results in some kind of Flashpoint-style storyline and everything about this season is wiped out from memory. Because there's no believable way that Oliver can return to crime-fighting after everything that has happened this season.
Season 3 has been such a huge dip in quality with contrived drama.
Felicity's now a wet blanket. Oliver makes dumber decisions. Lance is petty and has digressed from his development (at least his original grudge against the Arrow made sense). The Hong Kong flashbacks have been relatively boring, with only the last few episodes' worth being relevant. The stories try to shock you for the sake of shocking you without really making much sense and the Oliver-Felicity romance took something that was initially a cute flirtation and turned it into something nauseating.
Ra's Al Ghul is all bark but no bite. For someone so dangerous, he's only really succeeded in killing a couple criminals and one of his own henchmen, yet spared both Maseo and Nyssa for betraying him and just let Oliver go on with the wedding despite Merlyn ratting him out.
I'm grateful for the Flash right now that it hasn't been reduced to this (yet) and seems to handle the Arrow characters better. Felicity's appearances on that show have made her feel like the old Felicity and Lance & Laurel were both more likable on there than they've been this season.
Disappointing. Hope the writers take note and step up the game in Season 4 'cause this has been the weakest season by far.
Apparently, the show was supposed to have Harley Quinn for the third season, but those plans were scrapped because of the Suicide Squad movie. I guess they replaced her with Cupid?
Source: http://comicbook.com/2015/05/24/arrow-originally-had-big-plans-for-harley-quinn/
This season, we had Deadshot possibly killed off because of the same reason, and the Atom was originally Blue Beetle, but the showrunners had to change plans because of WB having possible plans for a movie adaptation. But at the same time, WB let the Barry Allen Flash headline his own show despite the fact that they're planning to adapt him in the movies? ???
Source (dated back to last July): http://comicbook.com/blog/2014/07/26/no-arrow-for-ted-kord-dc-has-other-plans/
There were rumours that Slade Wilson and Amanda Waller may have been written out of the show to accommodate the SS movie too, but that's now been debunked.
Source: http://comicbook.com/2015/04/19/arrow-deathstroke-and-amanda-waller-are-not-off-the-table/
While it's confusing that WB can't make up their minds about characters appearing in different franchises, there's still no reason why this double standard could have affected the third season's low quality.
QuoteWhile it's confusing that WB can't make up their minds about characters appearing in different franchises, there's still no reason why this double standard could have affected the third season's low quality.
Exactly.
Cupid, Deadshot's apparent death, the Blue Beetle/Iron Man take on Atom, and the small roles for Slade and Waller were probably some of the least of Season 3's problems, compared to all the obvious contrived hoops they went through to keep Malcolm Merlyn alive and make Oliver team up with him, the convoluted Ra's Al Ghul storyline that kept contradicting itself, and the overemphasis on the Oliver-Felicity romance that reduced Felicity into a sobbing mess who only seemed to care about being with Oliver and little else.
Plus, with Legends of Tomorrow bringing Sara back from the dead and putting Oliver back into the Arrow costume, Season 3 seems completely pointless, with the only benefit being that some characters got to fulfill their costumed destinies.'
As discussed in the Daredevil thread, this would've been a stronger season if it was more like that show. For the hell of it, here's where I think they could've gone in Season 3:
Vinnie Jones's Brick as a Fisk-like metahuman mob boss, trying to take control of a vulnerable city that's dealing with the aftermath of Slade Wilson's terrorist attack. We could've had an actual Green Arrow villain as a foe that would've easily tied into the events on the Flash (You could say he was close to Central City when the particle accelerator went off and that's why he's invulnerable) and could've avoided another "The villain plans to destroy the city" finale by making the battle more about the city's soul.
Oliver's arc could've still revolved around his identity (Am I the Arrow or Oliver Queen?), but done in a better way. In the beginning, he could've completely devoted to himself to being the Arrow. He's living out of the Arrowcave. He's grown his beard out (much like how Amell had done it between seasons). Slade Wilson and Isabel Rochev wiped out his fortune, so he's seeing what it's like to live in the city and recognizes how it's like on the streets now (giving him the social crusader angle that Denny O'Neil gave the character in the 1970s). His Arrow has become kind of a modern day Robin Hood.
He thinks this is how he needs to live his life...until he discovers that Merlyn is still alive and he's turned Thea into a weapon. Thea doesn't know him as the Arrow, she knows him as Oliver, so in order to save his sister, he has to go back to being Oliver. And that's when the season story makes him figure out how to balance being a human being and a vigilante.
By the end of the season, he's figured out a way to be both- regaining his fortune and his company and stepping back into the spotlight as Oliver Queen while fighting crime at night and fighting for the underdog as the Green Arrow (yes, "Green"- if Season 1 was the Hood and Season 2 was the Arrow, I'd have him called Green Arrow already in Season 3, maybe to differentiate him from Roy's costume).
In terms of the supporting cast, I wouldn't have killed Sara off if they were going to only resurrect her again later. Considering how Lance was portrayed in Season 3, I would've preferred if
he had passed from his injuries in Season 2 and, with Sara off with the League, Laurel would be forced to pick herself up and decide to take on the Black Canary persona in her sister's absence, as well as honor her father.
Wildcat could've still trained her, but I would've had a much older actor play him as a father figure to her, which could be poignant if she's still mourning her own dad at this point. Keep the fact that he used to be a vigilante, but in his younger days, maybe back when Oliver and Laurel were still kids. Maybe he was even a friend of Laurel's mom, Dinah (JSA reference) and that's how Laurel reconnects with him.
I'm fine with the Canary Cry being tech-based, but I would've had the STAR Labs people make it in an
Arrow episode, instead of a Flash one, as an important step in Laurel evolving her Canary persona from her sister's.
Sara then could've returned to Starling City with Nyssa to take down Malcolm Merlyn (now that the League knows he's alive), but finds herself disagreeing with the League of Assassins' ways. She was kind of already on this path in Season 2, so this would've fit. Wanting a life away from being an assassin (and with her sister already wearing her Black Canary outfit), Sara would go off on her own at the end of the season to develop her new persona and then show up in Legends of Tomorrow as the White Canary (the white symbolizing her fresh start from the blood she's shed in the past).
I would've spent more time with Thea's arc into becoming Speedy, Diggle trying to balance his family life with his crimefighting life (let's remember, he was Oliver's original partner), and Roy in his new role as Arsenal. These all felt pushed to the sidelines in favor of the Oliver-Felicity romance.
Which I would've cut completely, now that I've seen how it plays out. By all means, show more of Felicity's life outside of being the tech girl, but do it in a way that makes sense with the character and makes her feel like an actual person. Instead of it revolving around being caught between two men, she could've been the one (instead of Ray) trying to pick up the pieces of Queen Consolidated (maybe with Walter Steel's help. Remember that guy?) and discovering her own talents, outside of hacking databases and security cameras. While Oliver's drowned himself in his vigilante persona, Felicity's moving away from the crime fighting and discovering her own talents with business (again, this would've fit as Felicity in the original comics was a CEO).
Maybe Felicity's also moving on with her life by dating someone else, but it would be a recurring civilian character. I would avoid having it be another superhero, like Palmer. Ed Raymond, her actual husband in the comics, would be preferable but considering that Ronnie in the Flash is older than her in this continuity, it would be odd to have her dating his dad. A civilian character could be representative of an "ordinary life" that she could have. Plus, let's face it, it was really pushing it how Felicity had a flirtation/relationship with three different superheroes.
The conflicts between Oliver and his friends can arise from their own identities/purposes in life- Diggle wants more time with his family and Felicity wants more time to help with the business, while Oliver's devoting all of himself into crime fighting, etc. By the end, everyone has to balance out and discover that they aren't happy unless they can fulfill both sides of themselves.
Lastly, the Hong Kong flashbacks this season felt tedious and Maseo wasn't nearly as interesting of a mentor as Slade was. While it was kind of a cool twist that Oliver wasn't always on the island, the world didn't feel nearly as dangerous and it robbed the impact of the pilot that he had spent so long trying to survive in the middle of nowhere. It also never convinced me that Waller thought this rich kid would make the ideal assassin, so her recruiting him made no sense.
I think it would've made more sense if Waller herself needed something from the island and had rescued Oliver only so that she could tell him what she needed from Lian Yu and throw him back in there to get it (maybe something among the wreckage of Fyers' crew). After all, he knows that place better than anyone alive and it would've had a sensible way of bringing him back there (since he needs to be back there to be rescued later on). Oliver could then discover that Waller was behind Fyers in Season 1 and turn on her, leading to her abandoning him on the island, etc. This way, we get the Oliver-Waller backstory and the "he was in Hong Kong" twist, without robbing too much of the impact of him being forced to survive on the island.
So there we go- a season that would've evolved Oliver from Batman-lite to his comic book counterpart complete with adapting one of his own villains, a Black Canary origin for Laurel that would've kept Sara alive, an exploration of Felicity that didn't involve soap opera romance, and a flashback storyline that would've fulfilled the same purpose without completely retconning Oliver's "five years on a deserted island."
Fantastic post, BA! Love all those ideas.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 24 May 2015, 19:12
Wildcat could've still trained her, but I would've had a much older actor play him as a father figure to her, which could be poignant if she's still mourning her own dad at this point. Keep the fact that he used to be a vigilante, but in his younger days, maybe back when Oliver and Laurel were still kids. Maybe he was even a friend of Laurel's mom, Dinah (JSA reference) and that's how Laurel reconnects with him.
I wouldn't be surprised that the showrunners went with a younger actor to play Ted Grant because they had plans to get him involved romantically with Laurel. My only guess why that didn't happen is because they figured out that they didn't have enough room to cram that sub-plot when the Oliver-Felicity and Thea-blonde DJ pairings already took up too much screen time.
I wouldn't say Arrow was that great when it came to romance, but I thought Oliver's past romantic relationships made sense e.g. Helena as Oliver's potential protege as he tries to save her from her desire for vengeance, as well as Sara and Oliver being fighters and survivors, lest not forget former lovers of course. But the pairing with him and Felicity is forced. I've read most people's comments online suggesting that Oliver and Felicity were put together because the producers wanted to satisfy fan-fiction writers on Tumblr, otherwise known as "shippers". If that's the case, the producers are bloody idiots! I think this is a case where the CW is rearing its ugly head here, since every show on that network needs to do something to cater for that teenage audience.
By the way, I didn't even realize that "shippers" meant fans who went certain fictional characters to be together. I actually thought the term was made up to describe people who work at shipping docks! :-[
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 24 May 2015, 19:12
Sara then could've returned to Starling City with Nyssa to take down Malcolm Merlyn (now that the League knows he's alive), but finds herself disagreeing with the League of Assassins' ways. She was kind of already on this path in Season 2, so this would've fit. Wanting a life away from being an assassin (and with her sister already wearing her Black Canary outfit), Sara would go off on her own at the end of the season to develop her new persona and then show up in Legends of Tomorrow as the White Canary (the white symbolizing her fresh start from the blood she's shed in the past).
I would've been okay if Sara became the "heiress" to Ra's al Ghul, and became a brainwashed assassin who lost her conscience until the end of the season. I don't see why not: Ra's al Ghul wanted somebody with strong character to continue the League of Assassins, and Sara had that willpower. Granted, he wanted somebody to replace him...for reasons I'm not sure why.
I wouldn't mind so much that Arrow used a popular Batman villain for its show, but after a slightly promising start, this Ra's al Ghul became a dud. Honestly, I was never impressed with Liam Neeson, and Matt Nable ultimately didn't do anything for me either. I just don't think Hollywood can do this villain right. But I'll concede this about Neeson: if I can ignore that stupid and pointless decoy plot twist for a moment, his motives for destroying Gotham made some sense. Then again, he was the only villain in that trilogy who made any sense at all, in my opinion.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 24 May 2015, 19:12
Instead of it revolving around being caught between two men, she could've been the one (instead of Ray) trying to pick up the pieces of Queen Consolidated (maybe with Walter Steel's help. Remember that guy?)
Funny you mentioned him. One of the few things that bothered me about the season season was that he quickly forgave Moira Queen despite their falling out at the end of Season 1, and even suggested her to run a election campaign to become mayor. And since Moira's death, we've never seen him again.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 24 May 2015, 19:12
Lastly, the Hong Kong flashbacks this season felt tedious and Maseo wasn't nearly as interesting of a mentor as Slade was.
I'll go one better by suggesting that the flashbacks have already taken their course. There's only so much story you can tell when one is shipwrecked on an island for five years, and I think the Hong Kong storyline is proof that the producers have run out of ideas. I'd rather they just stop the flashback storylines from now on. If there is a story they need to tell from the past, they can always show it in one self-contained episode, and not drag it for a whole season.
I'm not going to lie, I'm very bummed out by this season to the point that unless the Flash can travel back in time and change the outcome of the show, I don't see myself watching season four. And let's face it, Flash affecting time/another dimension is the only reason why Oliver suiting up again could make any sense, especially if we see him in that LoT trailer. Otherwise, I have no desire watching Oliver Queen having relationship troubles with the now incredibly annoying Felicity Smoak (who has suddenly gone from a fan favourite to somebody that lots of people I see online wishing to be killed off from the show).
QuoteI wouldn't be surprised that the showrunners went with a younger actor to play Ted Grant because they had plans to get him involved romantically with Laurel.
I believe this was actually the plan :(
Wildcat himself was disappointing. He's meant to be one of the greatest fighters in the DC-verse...and his big moment in costume was when he got his ass kicked by Brick.
QuoteI wouldn't mind so much that Arrow used a popular Batman villain for its show, but after a slightly promising start, this Ra's al Ghul became a dud. Honestly, I was never impressed with Liam Neeson, and Matt Nable ultimately didn't do anything for me either. I just don't think Hollywood can do this villain right. But I'll concede this about Neeson: if I can ignore that stupid and pointless decoy plot twist for a moment, his motives for destroying Gotham made some sense. Then again, he was the only villain in that trilogy who made any sense at all, in my opinion.
And to be fair, this Ra's was much more faithful to the comics than the Nolan version:
- the League of Assassins kept their namesake this time
- he has a daughter working with him, armed her own fighting skills, who veers between being loyal to him vs. turning against him (let's face it- the show's Nyssa is basically a lesbian version of Talia, as opposed to an actual adaptation of the Nyssa character. Still, she's a better Talia than the Miranda Tate one.)
- He has the Lazarus Pit and has been around for hundreds of years
- He wears the Ra's Al Ghul green ceremonial robes
- And storywise, we got the shirtless sword fight as well as Ra's insisting on the hero becoming his heir and marrying his daughter.
And yet, none of these elements made up for the fact that he made for the weakest season-long villain, compared to Season 1's Merlyn and Season 2's Slade.
His League of Assassins do nothing important. At least the League of Shadows in the Nolan trilogy had an M.O. If this League did the same thing- destroying cities to destroy corruption- and Oliver actually
saw evidence of the League being an effective tool against stopping criminals, then they could've actually brought out some real drama out of him being tempted to join the League and his feelings that he hasn't done anything effective himself, in comparison.
Ra's gets introduced at the end of episode 4 but does
nothing until "The Climb" episode. That man should've gone to Starling City in the very next episode...
He supposedly wants Merlyn dead because destroying Starling City went against his code of honor, yet he wants Oliver to destroy Starling City at the end of the season. Hypocritical much?
He fails to kill anyone important, which makes his threats seem weak- Oliver and Thea both got resurrected. Maseo and Nyssa both betray him, but he spares their lives for what feels like plot convenience. All he kills are his own men during his practice fights as well as the criminals when he was dressed up as Arrow.
He's somehow convinced that Oliver should be his new heir after barely getting to know him and even defeating him in their first battle, all because of some prophecy about "whoever survives the blade of Ra's al Ghul." (at least in the Batman comics, Batman was an established hero and had saved Talia's life before, so Ra's had some basis for picking him).
And he gets so easily duped by Oliver that by the time the finale rolls around, he seems like a chump.
This all could've been prevented...if Ra's and Nyssa had just killed Merlyn.
It's also disappointing that in both adaptations, the Ra's Al Ghul character (at least the one we meet) is not the actual founder of the League and is someone who took over the leadership role from someone else.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 25 May 2015, 16:59
It's also disappointing that in both adaptations, the Ra's Al Ghul character (at least the one we meet) is not the actual founder of the League and is someone who took over the leadership role from someone else.
When Merlyn became the new Ra's al Ghul at the end of the finale, I actually believed that was what happened in BB; after Ken Watanabe's Ra's got killed by Bruce in the temple, Henri Ducard inherited the title. Instead, we get a plot twist for the sake of having one, without any purpose whatsoever. That's how I describe this season's Arrow, come to think of it.
I somewhat disagree with you a little bit that the League were completely harmless. Their framing of Arrow completely derailed Oliver's crusade. But I absolutely agree with you that their motivations throughout the season have been extremely flimsy, like in The Dark Knight Rises. All in all, they really looked second rate compared to Slade's Mirakuru army in Season 2. And just like in BB, I found the League to be beaten rather easily in a rushed and anticlimactic manner.
By the way, have you heard that Stephen Amell claiming that he has finished wearing the Arrow suit for the final time? It's not quite true since we see him in costume during that LoT trailer, but he was asked by a reporter if Oliver will be called "Green Arrow" next season, and Amell replied "We'll see".
Off-topic: I found a video of the chick who plays Nyssa performing stand-up comedy.
NSFW though because it contains swearing. She's not quite original, but I love how cocky she acts while touching upon the subject of racism.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHneO22qZLY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHneO22qZLY)
QuoteI somewhat disagree with you a little bit that the League were completely harmless. Their framing of Arrow completely derailed Oliver's crusade. But I absolutely agree with you that their motivations throughout the season have been extremely flimsy, like in The Dark Knight Rises. All in all, they really looked second rate compared to Slade's Mirakuru army in Season 2. And just like in BB, I found the League to be beaten rather easily in a rushed and anticlimactic manner.
I see what you mean. My sentiment is mainly on the question: what exactly does the League of Assassins
do on a regular basis in the Arrow world? Nearly everything they've done in the show is some kind of clean-up, either revolved around targeting one of their own (Sara, Merlyn, Nyssa, etc.) or getting Oliver to take over as the leader.
There was very little coverage of what Ra's was actually leading them to do on a regular basis (do they take out corrupt world leaders? Liberate villages from tyrants?) and whether that was something that could relate to Oliver's goals in fighting crime (in order for his offer to him to hold any weight).
The biggest contradiction was saying that Merlyn's attack on the Glades was against their code, but then they wanted Oliver to spread the megavirus through all of Starling City. So it's only okay to destroy a city when it is the old home of the upcoming successor?
I think maybe Ra's would've fit better in this world if they adapted Tower of Babel in a future season instead, either Season 4 or Legends of Tomorrow Season 2.
With the growing number of metahumans and superheroes in the show (not to mention how easily Flash got possessed by Rainbow Raider in the Flash vs. Arrow episode), I could see Oliver coming up with contingency plans against Flash and the Legends of Tomorrow superheroes (i.e. Hawkgirl, Firestorm, The Atom) in case they go bad.
Ra's could've then tried to use those plans to eliminate the superheroes, either to make way for his own scheme (giving him something to do other than spend a season trying to turn a guy he barely knows into his heir) or because he finds them too dangerous and threatening to the world as well (which makes him a dark parallel to Oliver). This also would've been a way better use of Brother Eye than the adaptation in the Felicity episode, if they combined this with the OMAC storyline. And again, this would've made more sense with the world they created, given Ra's an actual M.O., and avoided another "destroy the city" plot.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 27 May 2015, 17:41
With the growing number of metahumans and superheroes in the show (not to mention how easily Flash got possessed by Rainbow Raider in the Flash vs. Arrow episode), I could see Oliver coming up with contingency plans against Flash and the Legends of Tomorrow superheroes (i.e. Hawkgirl, Firestorm, The Atom) in case they go bad.
Nice idea, but the problem is that the show is accused of copying Batman already enough as it is, and it would only encourage more complaints. Speaking of comparisons with Batman, I've found this fan blog online where somebody reasons why this incarnation of Green Arrow and Atom aren't ripoffs of Batman and Iron Man. I don't quite agree with everything he says, but I do like this passage:
QuoteOverall - Granted, Arrow does a few plot cues from Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy, the degree to which some people use this name is flaws in glaring ways. The first and foremost (sorry Nolan fans) begin Nolan's Batman wasn't Batman, in any form, Arrow's GA (Green Arrow) is a less popular version of the character...but still a version none the less. Oliver may not be whipping one liners out here and there, but other than that, his arrogance, and ability to manipulate any self-absorbed situation and make it seem like he is "doing it for a cause" are pretty spot on to the character. On the other hand there is Baleman, who didn't embody a single of the three key (broad scale) Batman characteristics: Heroism of Zorro (regardless of being a vigilante, his BatSignal more then anything represents that the city can be safe under his guard, the guard of a hero), Stealth and Speed of Dracula (again, minus a few scenes in Batman Begins we rarely saw Batman navigate the shadows and for that matter...nor does Oliver on the CW), and lastly Intellect of Sherlock Holmes (Baleman is indisputably the stupidest version of Batman, minus Batzarro, to ever grace any screen or comic book. Unlike Oliver, who uses outside sources on both the CW [see Season 2.5] and the comics [Q-Core] to build gear and complete his mission as Arrow, Batman has always relied on his own smarts to be able to defeat most villains. This is a trait that, with except to the bullet tracking scene in The Dark Knight was completely and utterly ignored.
Getting past that, the "Nolan Trilogy" further embodies just how oversaturated, and over-credited Batman has become, people draw parallels between Bruce Wayne's exile in The Dark Knight Rises and Oliver's exile after the Season 3's mid-season finale and claim that he is just "ripping off Batman"....TIME OUT... The Dark Knight Rises was just a poor adaptation of the famous Batman storyline Knightfall, in which Batman has his back broken, and choses a replacement, and goes to rehabilitate himself, The Dark Knight Rises, used a theme that has been used time and time again in works ranging all the way from Shakespeare's Hamlet to Disney's The Lion King to Marvel's Iron Man, so Arrow much like The Dark Knight Rises, The Lion King, Iron Man, and countless other films and tv shows have always and will always be taking queues from age old material.
Source: http://www.thearrowverse.com/far-from-batman-and-iron-man-lite.html (beware if you want to read the entire blog though - it's fairly long).
QuoteNice idea, but the problem is that the show is accused of copying Batman already enough as it is, and it would only encourage more complaints.
Fair enough, I was coming more from the perspective of- if you're going to take a Batman story with Ra's, take this one instead ;D.
I think everyone noticed the similarities between Arrow and Batman/the Dark Knight Trilogy since before the show even aired, but I get the impression that it wasn't a big problem for viewers until this season. People noticed it in earlier seasons but weren't really bothered by it very much.
For example, I didn't mind stuff like the copycats in the beginning of Season 2 because they fit that world of the story and played a role in him wanting to change his tactics and his name. I thought they did it a lot better than TDK.
But this season, it felt like they were just injecting Batman in 'cause they were out of ideas, rather than what actually made sense for the characters.
In the comics, Ra's considers Batman a worthy potential heir, based off of how he saved his daughter, and has him undergo a test to prove his worth, which he passes in Daughter of the Demon. Plus, he knows that Talia is in love with Bruce. So having him offer the throne to Batman, as well as his daughter's hand in marriage, makes sense.
But here, Ra's considered Oliver to be "just a boy"- whom he easily defeats in combat. His only motivation behind offering the throne to him seems to be the hacky "He who survives the blade" prophecy BS.
He also set up Oliver and Nyssa right after Nyssa had betrayed him and he was about to kill her. It made no sense for him to suddenly decide to keep her alive or even pair the two of them up.
RE: the Arrow-Batman comparisons: we should remember that Green Arrow did historically rip off Batman until he was re-imagined over time. Some people argue that Arrow and Quentin Lance's working relationship rips off Batman and Gordon, but Green Arrow was seen sharing info with a Seattle police lieutenant in The Longbow Hunters, albeit on less than amicable terms. In fact, Green Arrow in that story used brutal intimidation that even Batman would consider crossing the line e.g. shooting arrows to impale a scumbag right in the ear.
I for one was never bothered about Arrow taking cues from the Nolan films, because like you said, it improved existing ideas that the films never explored too deeply i.e. the copycats in TDK. But now the writers took a massive step backwards. Some people argue that the writing team had too much on their plate with working Arrow and The Flash, as well developing LoT and Supergirl at the same time. And maybe some of that is true. But it still doesn't fully explain their lack of judgment for the storytelling choices they made this season.
Anyway, getting back to the Nolan comparions. You can compare Merlyn's Undertaking to Ra's al Ghul's water supply massacre attempt in BB, but I was way more captivated in Merlyn's agenda because his wife's murder in the Glades made it very personal. After years of unsuccessful attempts to donate his time and money to improve the town (and who knows, maybe a little bit of class elitism had an influence here), Merlyn returned home following his training with the League feeling convinced the people living in the Glades needed to die with it for any chance of rebuilding. But like Matt Nable's Ra's al Ghul, Merlyn's goals have become too convoluted that they ridiculously change over time too, because the season suffers from overwriting. It proves that the writers didn't know what to do with him but they still wanted to keep John Barrowman on the show. I'd prefer for Merlyn to stay dead at the end of Season 1 if this is what they were going to do.
Even Oliver suffers from overwriting this season compared to the first two. Unlike Nolan's Bruce Wayne, Oliver Queen in the first two seasons did evolve; starting his hero's journey as not a true "hero" until he reinvents his goals and identity as a tribute to Tommy Merlyn's memory. His hero's journey was completed upon beating Slade Wilson at the end of the season - by outsmarting him. He fulfilled his new found moral principles by refusing to give Slade the satisfaction of killing him; proving that unlike Slade, Oliver only killed to survive. I do think many people tend to overlook some glaring issues of the second half of Season 2, but I could still tolerate them because I found Oliver's arc so enriching. Which makes Season 3 even harder to swallow. :(
I haven't watched one episode of Arrow or Gotham. Simply not interested.
I just caught up on this show last night. Here are my overall sentiments;
I think Stephen Amell is excellent as the lead. I remember 3 years ago people saying he couldnt hack it or that Justin Hartley would be better, this guy carries the show. Now I did feel it suffered in the episodes when Oliver 'went away'.
I do think it has differed enough from batman. Initially it seemed like it was a copy of Batman but Starling city is different than Gotham city. Part of what makes gotham so dangerous is that crime bosses run it and have connections inside the police stations and D.A. offices so criminals can break the law and get away from it. Season 1 hinted at a corrupted legal system but they've since strayed from it. Also Batman generally works alone in most modern adaptations whereas we have the whole 'team arrow' thing going on here.
I wonder if DC attempting to set up their whole universe hampered the show? Don't get me wrong I loved the cross overs and am very excited about the prospect of them setting up a live action comic run on the small screen where characters can go in and out of each others series (I'm actually more excited about the TV shows coming than Batman vs Superman) but I think if they limited the crossing over, it would be more memorable when it does happen.
I did enjoy Brandon Routh's portrayal as Ray Palmer. I'm happy for him as he got a bad shake being unfairly blamed for Superman Returns. He's a big comic fan so hopefully he gets to live out his dream. Though I wish the show focused more on Oliver than the whole team arrow. Part of the intrigue of super heroes is they live dual lives where their loved ones have no idea what they do at night. It seems like with both this one and the flash, everyone around them knows who they are.
http://www.spoilertv.com/2015/09/arrow-season-4-promo-lq.html
Meh. For all the talk that they were going to change things up, it looks more of the same. The only thing different so far about Oliver seems to be that he's gone sleeveless, so the whole "Who are you?!" feels dumb.
Diggle's helmet looks dumb, too.
This show is still not matching the level of the first couple seasons.
Oliver may be Green Arrow now but there's absolutely nothing new about his methods that distinguish him from the Arrow. He even says "You have failed this city." He also doesn't seem to be nearly as good of a fighter as he was before. He needed Diggle to save him in ep 1, needed Thea's help in ep 2 to defeat Anarky, and got stabbed in the back and needed Lance to give a speech to help in ep 4. This whole transformation from Arrow to Green Arrow just feels unearned right now.
Constantine was a welcome addition last week and I think Damien Darhk's been a good villain, but other than that, the flashbacks are pointless now (other than introducing how Oliver knew Constantine) and the episodes have just felt like set up for Legends of Tomorrow in bringing Sara back from the dead (again) and getting Ray Palmer back.
They explored little of Sara's actual resurrection. No reactions to Laurel taking up the Black Canary outfit, Thea being forced to kill her by Merlyn, Oliver being with Felicity now, etc. This would've been a lot more worthwhile than an episode around Oliver, Felicity, and her mom. It really felt like there was a missing episode in between here.
Overall, Arrow seems to have a big problem with keeping people dead. Here's all the people who were believed dead but either turned out to be alive or were resurrected:
Oliver Queen
Sara Lance
Slade Wilson
Thea Queen
Roy Harper
Malcolm Merlyn
Deadshot
Ray Palmer
And now, even Diggle's brother is still alive!
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Thu, 12 Nov 2015, 23:54
This show is still not matching the level of the first couple seasons.
Truthfully, I gave up on the show after last season, and from what I've read in your post, it doesn't make me want to return and watch future episodes any time soon. Although I haven't had the time to watch any of this season's Flash other than the first episode. :-[
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 14 Nov 2015, 02:01Truthfully, I gave up on the show after last season, and from what I've read in your post, it doesn't make me want to return and watch future episodes any time soon. Although I haven't had the time to watch any of this season's Flash other than the first episode. :-[
You'll want to catch up on the Flash when you have some time. This season is a serious punch in the nards so far. It continues the first season but twists it too.
I'll be honest, the show does stuff you just don't expect from a TV show dependent upon adhering to a status quo. Berlanti will wipe his ass with the status quo if he needs to. He did that a couple of times in the first season and, not to spoil anything, it happens again in the second season.
As to Arrow, it's just stupid fun. I enjoy it on that basis. Plus I like seeing Laurel in that black leather outfit. She can kick my ass any time she wants. Mmm...
So yeah. I'll be right back.
Okay I'm back now. Anyway, Arrow is fun, brainless entertainment. It's not the living comic book that Flash is and it doesn't need to be. Quite enjoyable.
Felicity Smoak and the show's pandering to Tumblr's "Olicity" audience is absolutely murdering this show and it's been that way ever since Season 3. But none moreso than last night's episode, which was one of the more solid episodes in awhile, in my opinion, that was ruined by this character throughout.
A strong crossover with Vixen, flashback scenes that were actually intriguing for the first time since Constantine's episode, a real progression in the plot with Damien Darkh stripped of his powers and arrested, and a hell of an emotional speech from Oliver in his message to his son...
...which promptly gets ruined by Felicity rolling in and whining to Oliver about not being told about his secret kid, despite knowing that Samantha forced him into not telling anyone. Not to mention literally all the other characters in the show had a more mature reaction to being kept out of it...probably 'cause, I don't know, maybe they recognized this was none of their damn business? This is also an episode directly after Felicity advises her mom that people have to keep secrets to protect people. If she really believed that, she should have understood after getting the rundown from Oliver and Samantha. Clearly she doesn't. Also, I'm sure Felicity shares everything about her life as Overwatch to her mom...yeah right...
The character has become a whiny hypocrite, wasting screen time from a show that used to be about people overcoming obstacles and battling their inner demons. Now, it's about a guy who's worried about his girlfriend and her "crucible" in getting paralyzed is something that gets solved in just a few episodes.
Felicity Smoak has hijacked the show. Examples: A two episode arc about her father with little tie into the Damien Darkh plot. Subplots about her and her mother that usually barely tie into the rest of the story. Last week's episode she literally interrupts Oliver from going after Darkh's wife so she could show him what the invites look like for the engagement party.
None of which I've found ways to give a crap about. We didn't even get an episode of Sara reacting to her sister being the Black Canary. Someone on reddit pointed out that we got to see Felicity's presentation to Palmer Tech on Curtis Holt's battery, but we saw zero of Oliver's debate with Ruve. Is this still Oliver's show? Clearly not, the writers are so in love with this character that the show has been dedicated to her now.
Felicity was a highlight of Seasons 1 and 2 when she was a supporting character and comic relief.
Now, as the female lead, she's the albatross and the worst part of it.
I'm not the only one who's noticed. Laughing Fish quit the show because of it.
Fans wrote articles about it:
http://thearrowverse.com/up-in-smoak-my-thoughts-on-felicity-smoak/
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/dc_tv/arrow/why-olicity-is-killing-arrow-a119361
I wish Darkh had succeeded in killing her off in Christmas.
I wish that Felicity walking out at the end would be the end of the character.
But obviously, we know she'll be back. Hell, the showrunner himself spoiled that with a picture showing that Felicity and Oliver at least make it up to the alter, completely undermining the "What's going to happen next?' feeling that we were probably meant to have at the end of this episode. They're so preoccupied with hyping up the Tumblr crowd of fan girls that they undermine and spoil their own soap opera drama.
This is entirely the fault of the showrunners and not Emily Bett Rickards, who is going off of what's written but is simply not able to make her emotional scenes endearing rather than annoying. I think the character is past the point of no return.
Write her out this season. If you need a tech person from Palmer Tech, use Curtis Holt, who's already smarter and way less annoying and won't give us any of this romance drama.
Get this show back to what this was really about: Oliver Queen. And if you want to do romance, start giving us the Green Arrow-Black Canary relationship. You know, the one that's actually from the comics...
EDIT: On a side note, I wish they had used Sandra and Connor Hawke instead of original characters for the mother and child. This would've required using a black actress back in Season 2 for the flashback and a multi-racial kid for Connor, but how much more emotional would this episode be for us if we knew that Connor would become inspired by being rescued by Green Arrow and grow up to take his mantle years later? Then, on Legends of Tomorrow this very same week, we'd get to see him in a future where he's got the costume and, presumably, heard Oliver's message when he turned 18.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 26 Feb 2016, 01:44
A strong crossover with Vixen, flashback scenes that were actually intriguing for the first time since Constantine's episode, a real progression in the plot with Damien Darkh stripped of his powers and arrested, and a hell of an emotional speech from Oliver in his message to his son...
...which promptly gets ruined by Felicity rolling in and whining to Oliver about not being told about his secret kid, despite knowing that Samantha forced him into not telling anyone.
A similar situation happened earlier this season on The Flash, during the crossover episode with Arrow. Felicity whined how Oliver is still keeping secrets from her, they break up, and this causes Oliver to get distracted and makes a terrible tactical decision when dealing with Vandal Savage. This results getting everyone in Star City killed. Thankfully, Barry was able to change the timeline and start all over.
Rather than complaining about how the show is a shadow of its former self, I'm going to list down my top five episodes during its whole run up to now:
- Three Ghosts (Season 2) - Barry saves Oliver's life following his near death experience with Cyrus Gold, but Oliver is poisoned by Mirakuru and hallucinates the ghosts of his friends Slade, Shado and Tommy. Oliver overcomes his guilt following his final conversation with Tommy, and rescues Roy from Gold and Brother Blood. I liked the end of the episode where we see Barry's origin story as the Flash come to life, and Oliver reaches a milestone where he takes up the mask.
- The Undertaking (Season 1)- I liked how Oliver and Felicity infiltrated the casino in their search for Walter Steele, and Oliver comes to Felicity's rescue when she was in trouble. Mind you, this was long before Felicity became a royal pain in the ass and was still the quirky fun girl.
I loved the alley fight scene where Oliver rescues Walter in Blüdhaven. Now, it might looked tame compared to Daredevil's Season 1 alley fight scene, but I still look back getting wowed at how Oliver is so ferocious at those thugs.
But the biggest reason why I like this episode is we see why Malcolm Merlyn wants to destroy the Glades. He feels he has done everything he could to restore the suburb through legitimate means, but believes that place is rotten to the core and seeks to destroy everything within it to start over. It's a backstory that's based on revenge and tragedy, as he justifies that the Glades have taken everything from good people: Merlyn's wife, Robert Queen's innocence, Frank Chen's daughter and so on. Of course, we see the betrayal behind the story, as Frank was responsible for tipping off Merlyn to Robert's desire to expose the Undertaking and sabotages the Queen's Gambit that doomed Robert and condemned Oliver to be missing for five years.
- Sacrifice - The Season 1 finale where Merlyn is exposed for planning to destroy the Glades, and everything comes ahead. It had a ballsy ending where Merlyn tricked everyone by keeping a second earthquake device, but his desire for revenge costs him his son Tommy. In the island flashbacks, Oliver completes his transformation from scared rich douchebag to fearless warrior and survivor, as he and he stops Fyers' plans to destroy the Chinese economy. You can tell by Slade Wilson's expression in the end that he had a new found respect for Oliver compared to when they first met.
- The Brave and the Bold (Season 3) - For me, the best and only really good episode of Season 3 by far. We get to see Arrow and Flash join forces, and you can see the differences between Barry and Oliver's approaches - and Barry has issues with how dark Oliver can be. Similar to how Superman and Batman don't see eye to eye. Thankfully the two put their differences aside to stop Captain Boomerang, for the city and Lyla Michaels' sake.
- City of Heroes (Season 1) - The first episode of Season 2, as Oliver returns home from his self-imposed exile from Starling City following the Glades failure. The copycats have taken inspiration from the Hood in the worst possible way, and Oliver goes after them to rescue Thea. It was a real turning point for him as he reinvents himself as a hero reborn and adopts his no-kill policy. It should be noted that the Three Ghosts episode had Sebastian Blood revealing that he hired the copycats to kill the current mayor so he could run for his election campaign.
After watching Will Smith's performance as Floyd Lawton/Deadshot in Suicide Squad, I'm looking back at how Arrow handled the character.
I noticed that Deadshot underwent massive - even bizarre - changes during the first two seasons. In Season 1, Lawton isn't simply a hitman for hire, he comes across as a tattooed version of Victor Zsasz. He has his victims' names inked all over his body and seems to take pleasure in what he does, as he indicates reserving a spot for John Diggle on one occasion.
But as Diggle joins Amanda Waller's Suicide Squad and confronts Lawton again in Season 2, Deadshot's characterisation was changed completely. It's revealed that he uses the money he earns from contract killing to fund for his daughter Zoe, and from that point on, the show goes from depicting him as a psychopath to a sympathetic tragic villain. It was really forced, and wasn't believable. Furthermore, Season 3 shows Lawton's backstory, where he had been suffering from PTSD after he was discharged from Afghanistan (?) and suffers from behavioral problems at home, and gets arrested for domestic violence. Until he was bailed out by HIVE.
Frankly, I thought the movie version was handled much better. While I appreciate Arrow tried to give Deadshot a heroic send-off (until he was later resurrected, apparently), I think the movie did a better job at handling how Lawton wanted to redeem himself in the eyes of his own daughter, and was a better example of how a criminal could still have a bit of heart.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Thu, 12 Nov 2015, 23:54Overall, Arrow seems to have a big problem with keeping people dead. Here's all the people who were believed dead but either turned out to be alive or were resurrected:
Oliver Queen
Sara Lance
Slade Wilson
Thea Queen
Roy Harper
Malcolm Merlyn
Deadshot
Ray Palmer
And now, even Diggle's brother is still alive!
LOL! It would appear that your list needs to be updated.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Thu, 12 Nov 2015, 23:54This show is still not matching the level of the first couple seasons.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 15 Dec 2016, 02:00I noticed that Deadshot underwent massive - even bizarre - changes during the first two seasons.
I've read people say that Berlanti basically redeveloped the entire show after some point in the first season and then again after the second season. I haven't watched those seasons. I basically watch when there's a new episode now but I couldn't care less about seeing all the seasons. But Neal Adams and others have said that the show radically transformed after a certain point and stuff like the above comments make me believe that pretty easily since it sounds nothing like the show I watch now.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 15 Dec 2016, 13:26
I've read people say that Berlanti basically redeveloped the entire show after some point in the first season and then again after the second season. I haven't watched those seasons. I basically watch when there's a new episode now but I couldn't care less about seeing all the seasons. But Neal Adams and others have said that the show radically transformed after a certain point and stuff like the above comments make me believe that pretty easily since it sounds nothing like the show I watch now.
From what I understood, Greg Berlanti and Andrew Kreisberg began to shift their focus on The Flash as soon as that show started, and gave Marc Guggenheim showrunner responsibilities for Arrow Season 3 and beyond. The changes definitely continued, but for the worst.