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I've started this thread in an effort to create a comprehensive list of everyone Batman has ever killed in the comics, whether by accident or intent. I've tried to provide scans for as many examples as possible.

Hopefully people will add to list with other examples that I've overlooked. But for now, here are some that I've found.


The Case of the Chemical Syndicate - Detective Comics #27 (1939): he punches Stryker into a vat of acid



Justice: Detective Comics #28 (1939) - he throws one of Frenchy Blake's henchmen off a roof



The Batman Meets Doctor Death - Detective Comics #29 (1939): he kills Jabah by lassoing a rope around his neck and breaking it



Return of Doctor Death - Detective Comics #30 (1939): he kills Mikhail by breaking his neck with a well-aimed kick



Batman Versus the Vampire (Part II) - Detective Comics #32 (1939): he shoots Dala and the Monk dead while they are asleep



The Batman Wars Against the Dirigible of Doom - Detective Comics #33 (1939): he carries a gun and uses it to shoot some machinery aboard a dirigible, causing an explosion that kills a number of henchmen. He later switches clothes with another bad guy and places him in a death chamber to die in his place. At the end of the story he kills Dr. Krueger by knocking him out with gas pellets and causing his plane to crash


Peril in Paris - Detective Comics #34 (1939):he knocks out the Duc D'Orterre and leaves him to drive over a cliff


The Case of the Ruby Idol - Detective Comics #35 (1940): he kicks an opponent onto another villain's sword, impaling him. Later he knocks Lenox out of a window to his death




The Screaming House - Detective Comics #37 (1940): he knocks Count Grutt against a sword that impales him through the head



The Giants of Hugo Strange - Batman #1 (1940): he open fires on a group of gangsters using the Batplane's machine gun. One of the bad guys escapes, so Batman drops a cable from the Batplane and hangs him. At the end of the story he uses gas pellets to knock the last bad guy off a rooftop




The Horde of the Green Dragon - Detective Comics #39 (1940): he kills a Chinese assassin. Later in the story he wipes out the Green Dragon Tong by crushing them beneath a giant statue



Wolf, the Crime Master - Batman #2 (1940): he breaks the neck of Adam Lamb (aka The Wolf) by punching him down a flight of stairs



The Crime School for Boys - Batman #3 (1940): he throws a criminal off a roof



The Strange Case of Professor Radium - Batman #8 (1940): he drowns Professor Radium



Professor Strange's Fear Dust - Detective Comics #46 (1940): he knocks Hugo Strange off a cliff. The Earth-Two Strange's death in this issue was later retconned during the Bronze Age, but this story marked his final fatal appearance during the Golden Age



Money Can't Buy Happiness - Detective Comics #47 (1941): he kills a gangster by knocking him out while he's driving and causing his car to crash headlong into a tree



The Brain Burglar - Detective Comics #55 (1941): he punches a foreign agent into a vat of molten steel. Later in the story he throws two more bad guys off a dirigible




The Two Futures - Batman #15 (1943): he kills some Japanese soldiers by throwing a bayonet into the tire of their car and causing it to crash. Later he crashes a plane into an Axis warship, killing everyone aboard



The Angel, the Rock and the Cowl - The Brave and the Bold #84 (1969):  he destroys a German plane using a hand grenade. At the end of the story he uses dynamite to blow up a convoy of German soldiers as they are crossing a bridge



A Bat-Death for Batman! - Batman #221 (1970): he throws the villain Otto into a pit with frenzied animal that kills him



You Only Die Twice! - The Brave and the Bold #90 (1970): he knocks out a criminal and throws his unconscious body into the sea where he presumably drowns



Swamp Sinister - Batman #235 (1971): he punches Striss into a puddle of chemicals that infect him with a lethal disease



Vengeance for a Dead Man - Batman #240 (1972): he euthanizes Mason Sterling by deactivating the life support machine connected to his brain (Sterling tricked him into doing this)



The Menace of the Fiery Heads! - Batman #270 (1975): he punches Watkins into a statue, which then topples onto him and breaks his neck



The Corpse Came C.O.D. - Batman #271 (1976): he uses a sonically-charged amulet like a grenade to kill the Vedic cult leader and set fire to his temple while the cult members are still inside



Heart of a Vampire - Detective Comics #455 (1976): he shoots Gustav Decobra through the heart with a bow and arrow



Dead Man's Quadrangle - The Brave and the Bold #127 (1976): he ignores a criminal's mayday call, deducing it to be fake. It then transpires that the call was genuine, and the criminal has drowned as a result of Batman's inaction



Batman-Ex - - As in Extinct! - Batman #288 (1977): he uses a bad guy as a human shield by hurling him into the trajectory of the Penguin's gunfire, killing the man in the process



Skull Dugger's Killjoy Capers! - Batman #290 (1977): he electrocutes Dugger by throwing him into a nest of electrified cables



Time...My Dark Destiny! - The Brave and the Bold #157 (1979): he causes a helicopter to crash and the pilot is killed in the explosion


Where Walks a Snowman - Batman #337 (1981): he uses the flash of a marker flare to knock Klaus Kristin (aka. the Snowman) off a cliff.



The Crystal Armageddon! - The Brave and the Bold #159 (1980): he kills a member of the League of Assassins by throwing him against a wall made from a lethal formula, which then causes the assassin to turn to crystal and die. Batman knew this would happen and had actually warned someone against touching the wall earlier in the same scene



The Monster in the Mirror - Detective Comics #517 (1982): he kills Marley and drinks his blood



Those Who Live By The Sword - The Brave and the Bold #193 (1982): he stomach throws Bloodclaw off the Woodrow Wilson Bridge


The Messiah of the Crimson Sun - Batman Annual #8 (1982): he kills Ra's Al Ghul by drawing his spaceship into lethal sun rays



Night of Blood! - The Brave and the Bold #195 (1983): he stabs the vampire Gunnarson through the chest with a wooden table leg.



Batman: Year Two - Detective Comics #575-578 (1987): he takes Chill to Crime Alley, whereupon the Batman unmasks himself and reveals his true identity. He disarms Chill and turns the gunman's own weapon against him. Batman places the gun to Chill's forehead and is about to shoot him when suddenly the Reaper kills him first. Disappointed, Batman chases down and confronts the Reaper for the last time. At the end of the confrontation, the Reaper plummets to his death, taking the secret of  Batman's true identity with him. But before he falls, he tells the Dark Knight "I didn?t think you were a killer? I see now I was wrong," implying that Batman would have killed Joe Chill had he not got to him first


Son of the Demon - (1987): he causes a helicopter crash that kills everyone on board. At the end of the story he kills Qayin by kicking him into some electric cables



Skeeter - Action Comics Annual #1 (1987): he stabs Skeeter through the back with a wooden stake



The Cult (1988): he guns down an innocent man during a hallucinogenic trance. Later he uses the Batmobile's armaments to demolish a building in orders to kill the rocket sniper on the rooftop. At the end of the story he cripples Deacon Blackfire and incites his follower's to turn on their leader. Robin tries to help Blackfire, but Batman stops him, then stands back and watches with a smile on his face as Blackfire is torn apart



Ten Nights of the Beast - Batman #420 (1988): he traps KGBeast in an underground chamber and leaves him to starve/suffocate



Consequences - Batman #425 (1988): he topples a pile of cars onto a villain, crushing him to death



Cosmic Odyssey (1988): he uses an Apokoliptian gun to blast a hole through the chest of one of Darkseid's soldiers



Shaman - Legends of the Dark Knight #1 (1989): Bruce Wayne accidentally knocks Tom Woodley off a mountain cliff. Woodley shows up alive and well many years later, but at this point Bruce believes his clumsiness has caused the death of a fellow human



Trash - Detective Comics #613 (1990): he kicks two bad guys into the back of a garbage truck and they are killed in the grinders



Succession - Detective Comics Annual #4 (1991): in vision of the future foreseen by Waverider, Batman kills Ra's al Ghul and later blows up himself and the entire League of Assassins, including Talia al Ghul


In the Dark Places - Batman #576 (2000): he kills a helicopter pilot by throwing a knife into the tail rotor of his helicopter and causing it to crash



All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder #1 (2005): he kills a group of corrupt policeman by ramming into their car with the Batmobile



All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder #2 (2005): he runs down several police motorcyclists and then incinerates a group of pursuing police vehicles using the rocket thrusters on the Batmobile




The Big Show - Detective Comics #814 (2006): he fights the army of madmen know as 'the Body', knocking several of them off rooftops and luring the rest to a building site where he has planted explosive charges. He then escapes via the Batwing, detonating the bombs as he goes and wiping out the madmen



The Beautiful People - Detective Comics #821 (2006): he knocks Johnny Lange in front of an oncoming train



All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder #7 (2007): he uses thermite and bleach to set fire to a gang, and continues to beat them up while they burn



Joe Chill in Hell - Batman #673 (2008): during an hallucinatory fantasy Batman hounds Joe Chill and drives him to the brink of suicide, then hands him a loaded gun and watches as he kills himself



Superman and Batman VS Vampires and Werewolves (2008-2009): he kills several vampires and werewolves in this series using stakes and a UV gun


How to Murder the Earth - Final Crisis #6 (2009): he uses an Apokalips gun to poison Darkseid



Bronze Night - Batman/Doc Savage #1 (2010): in this story Batman uses firearms in a cavalier manner and admits that he may be responsible for killing criminals



That's all I've got for now, but I'm sure there are plenty of other examples out there. Please add any you can think of.

I know it wasn't Batman, but in Robin's debut story, the Boy Wonder is shown (cheerfully, I might add) throwing hoodlums off a construction site.

I wasn't surprised that Batman kills, that he used guns was.

This is a great find, props for sure for finding this stuff and putting it up!

wowwwwww

who the hell is skeeter and why the hell did batman stab her? good lord she looks like me and the only way him or supes could beat her was impalement? wtf?

Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 16 Sep  2010, 22:43
who the hell is skeeter?

I dunno. Scooter's sister?

makes sense.

next question

who's scooter? lol.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.wikia.com%2Fmuppet%2Fimages%2F4%2F40%2FScooter.jpg&hash=d7ff8441329379696c5fa0c0d23c6ff3e48b14af)

Skeeter was his sister on Muppet Babies.

Heavens. Someone has to stop this homicidal maniac.  ;)

Who? Batman or Scooter? :)

I think they're both candidates for Arkham. Heheh

QuoteThis is a great find, props for sure for finding this stuff and putting it up!

You?re very welcome. I thought the Bat-fans here might find this stuff interesting.

Quotewho the hell is skeeter and why the hell did batman stab her?

Skeeter was a vampire from a small town in South Carolina. Superman is vulnerable to magic and vampires are technically supernatural. So Skeeter was able to smack him around a bit before Batman staked her.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 18 Sep  2010, 20:30


Skeeter was a vampire from a small town in South Carolina.

1. that answers that.

2.  :o

Quote from: Catwoman on Sun, 19 Sep  2010, 13:38

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 18 Sep  2010, 20:30


Skeeter was a vampire from a small town in South Carolina.

1. that answers that.

2.  :o

Should we be worried for you Catwoman?

Here's another addition

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdccomicsartists.com%2Fbatman%2Fdrdeath-tec29.jpg&hash=aedc4a63d7e2f46c018989873a8b4b8f32cb4156)

Technically, Doctor Death doesn't die in that issue, but that's still a good example of the character's attitude towards death at the time.

The Batman of today probably would go through the flames and try to save him.  This one watches him burn.

Although thats clearly accidental, its still a kill

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Rf9S3GkkeyI/SgLZ2SBeFxI/AAAAAAAAQHo/ODwjGJ2Us_E/s1600-h/mike+mignola+and+dean+raspler.+batman.+sanctum.+page.+005.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Rf9S3GkkeyI/SgLZ2SBeFxI/AAAAAAAAQHo/ODwjGJ2Us_E/s1600-h/mike+mignola+and+dean+raspler.+batman.+sanctum.+page.+005.jpg)

This thread needs bumping, so here are a few more victims of the Dark Knight to add to the list.

First of all, this is the aforementioned scene from Brave and the Bold #84 where Bruce Wayne kills a fighter pilot with a hand grenade.


And here's the scene Gotham Alleys mentioned from 'Sanctum' (Legends of the Dark Knight #84, November 1993) where Batman kills Lowther in self-defence.


And a few new ones.

The cover of Detective Comics #39 (May 1940) shows Batman punching a criminal off a high ledge on a construction site.


Here's one for the Boy Wonder. 'The Clock Maker' (Batman #6, September 1941) ends with Batman and Robin clinging to the face of a clock tower while the eponymous villain shoots at them through a window. Robin grabs the Clock Maker and hauls him out of the tower, sending him plummeting to his death.


Robin kills another criminal in 'Secret of the Iron Jungle' (Batman #6, September 1941), twisting the man's wrist around so that he shoots himself in the head.


Also in this story, Batman throws a criminal off an oil derrick.


In 'The Chain Gang Crimes!' (Batman #47, June 1948) Batman throws a criminal off a huge spherical gas tank.


In 'The Most Dangerous Twenty Miles in Gotham City' (Detective Comics #423, May 1972) Batman takes down two assassins. The first he uses as a human shield to absord the gunfire of the other. Its unclear if this assassin survives. The bullet seems to pass through his shoulder, but he appears lifeless in the subsequent panels.


The fate of the second assassin is less ambiguous, as Batman snares him with a grappling hook and hauls him off a water tower. Batman appears totally unrepentent afterwards, remarking: "Tough, Trooper Omega – but when you play deadly games, you can't cry 'fingers'!"


In 'A Monster Walks Wayne Manor' (Detective Comics #438, January 1974) Batman kicks Ubu onto a splintered railing. The actual impalement happens off panel, but Dr. Varnov is present to caption the incident: "H-he impaled himself on the splintered railing..." However, the artwork clearly shows that it was the momentum of Batman's kick that sent Ubu to his doom.


The Earth-Two Batman was responsible for the death of his wife, Selina Wayne, as depicted in 'Huntress: From Each Ending... A Beginning!' (DC Super-Stars #17, December 1977). During a fight with some criminals Batman kicked an opponent's gun, causing it to veer to the side and discharge. The resultant shot hit Catwoman, knocking her over a balcony and sending her plummeting to her death.



This event caused the Earth-Two Bruce Wayne to burn his Batsuit and retire as Batman. And in case there was any doubt as to Bruce's culpability in his wife's death, he openly acknowledges it in 'United We Fall!' (All-Star Comics #69, November 1977).


Batman tries to kill Cat-Man in 'Nine Lives Has the Cat' (Detective Comics #509, December 1981) by knocking him off a boat. He then stands by and watches as Cat-Man apparrently drowns. Of course Cat-Man's nine lives allowed him to show up again in later stories. But to all intents and purposes, Batman tried to kill him at the end of this story.


In 'The Doomsday Book' (Detective Comics #572, March 1987) Batman uses a dazed criminal as a human shield to protect himself from gunfire, sacrificing the criminal to save his own life.


In 'Infected' (Legends of the Dark Knight #84, June 1996) Batman tries several times to kill the villain, a hallucinating soldier who's been driven kill crazy by military experiments. He finally succeeds in killing the solider by shooting him several times with a handgun and knocking him off a dam. The Caped Crusader's internal monologue makes it pretty clear this was a deliberate, albeit regrettable, premeditated killing.


In Year One: Batman/Ra's al Ghul (2005) Batman intentionally kills two bad guys who are pursuing him on snowmobiles by firing a flaregun at a mountain and creating an avalanche that buries them.


And that's all for now. If anyone can think of any more, please add them to the list. Batman's victims deserve that small justice at least.

That's a hell of a bump! Brilliant!

It's all evidence for the prosecution for when Bruce Wayne is finally brought to justice  >:(

This comes from TDKR.

In TDK Rises Batman shoots the bomb truck with The Bat, killing the driver.

It's not alright to fire a handgun, but it's alright to fire machine guns strapped on a flying vehicle.

So when are the Nolan lovers going to say there ARE situations when lethal force (intentional or not) is required?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 12 Jul  2012, 16:17
It's all evidence for the prosecution for when Bruce Wayne is finally brought to justice  >:(

Only for a prosecution initiated by Harvey Dent - that is, the post-"accident" Harvey Dent.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 31 Jul  2012, 08:01
In TDK Rises Batman shoots the bomb truck with The Bat, killing the driver.

It's not alright to fire a handgun, but it's alright to fire machine guns strapped on a flying vehicle.

So when are the Nolan lovers going to say there ARE situations when lethal force (intentional or not) is required?

If the deaths of Ra's and Two Face aren't going to make them do it, I can't imagine anything being good enough.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 31 Jul  2012, 15:32

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 31 Jul  2012, 08:01
In TDK Rises Batman shoots the bomb truck with The Bat, killing the driver.

It's not alright to fire a handgun, but it's alright to fire machine guns strapped on a flying vehicle.

So when are the Nolan lovers going to say there ARE situations when lethal force (intentional or not) is required?

If the deaths of Ra's and Two Face aren't going to make them do it, I can't imagine anything being good enough.

Indeed. And destroying the monastery in BB.

I don't even know where to begin with this movie. There are so many plot holes and curiosities in it.

Maybe it's because the trilogy is over but I'm coming to a place of acceptance about Nolan's movies. Perfect? Not even close. But parts of them are good, it's still Batman when you come down to it and there's room for everybody. No, I'll probably never hold the Nolan stuff in as high a regard as I do the comics, the Burton movies or TAS. But at the same rate, at least he didn't do more B&R nonsense.

I do wish the series didn't informally have that pretentious "The Dark Knight Trilogy" moniker though.

Oh well, bring on the reboot!

I was just browsing the web and I came across this thread: http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1694257
Notice how the user djthefunkchris just copied and pasted the first post from this thread, then claimed that he came up with all those references himself.

QuoteAdam's right, I overdid it. I honestly didn't even realise how many I found.. I was just trying to find one per year, but it grew.

Must have been hard work finding all those references.  >:(

A few years back long before there was a forum on the site, probably about 2004, there was a carbon copy of this site except the copycat had put a new banner at the top with his name on it!

That's terrible. How did they think they'd get away with ripping off an entire site?

Seems like the internet has made plagiarism easier than ever.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  1 Aug  2012, 06:28

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 31 Jul  2012, 15:32

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 31 Jul  2012, 08:01
In TDK Rises Batman shoots the bomb truck with The Bat, killing the driver.

It's not alright to fire a handgun, but it's alright to fire machine guns strapped on a flying vehicle.

So when are the Nolan lovers going to say there ARE situations when lethal force (intentional or not) is required?

If the deaths of Ra's and Two Face aren't going to make them do it, I can't imagine anything being good enough.

Indeed. And destroying the monastery in BB.

I don't even know where to begin with this movie. There are so many plot holes and curiosities in it.

I hate it when Batman kills intentionally, or doesn't save life when he can. But I am OK with colateral damage. Case in point I've always hated how Batman left Ra's to die in Begins. But on the other hand I have no problem with Two-Face's demise in TDK, since I see that as Batman making the only choice he could in saving Gordon's son. Nor do I really have a problem with the monastery, since I saw it as a necessary action again. As far as TDKR...well I guess he had to do it to save the city, but with all my problems with that film I kinda choose to forget it and not really consider that film.  :)

But Batman's attitude to killing has always been one of my problems with Burton's take on the character. It doesn't bother me that much in B'89 (since narratively that film only can end with either Batman or the Joker meeting their end), but I do have issues with hoe he cavalierly dispatches those Penguin goons without much consideration. Still a valid take on the character, but my view of Batman is the more "I hate Killing, No guns" Batman of the 90's comics I grew up with.

You are fine to have that view, and I will not attempt to 'rebut' or argue your post per se but merely post what I like about Burton's take.

I like Batman killing on occasion ala B89/BR because I think it plays with the character. A dark paranoid loner who when out of the suit broods alone waiting for the signal to light up. If he has to kill, he will. The Nolanverse shows killing in the heat of battle is unavoidable. From my point of view, Batman killing intentionally without any set code removes all of the technicalities and cop-outs ala "I don't have to save you".

The Keaton Batman is just honest about it to himself. As a basis Batman is a vigilante and operates outside of the law. If he engages in that behaviour where do the extremities end? People are scared of him and he has a detached aura about him. Ala the myth of Johnny Gobs, or walking away from Gordon down the ramp after uttering two words to the guy. If he's challenged or mocked and if a situation escalates, it's on. There's something very cool to me about a dark knight engaging in the fight of his life and winning by throwing the enemy down a bell shaft, composing himself and moving onto the next challenge.

It can become like, Batman likes coke and Superman likes fanta instead, but yeah - a killing Wayne and a more pure pacifist ideology Kent works for me.

The straw man that usually gets thrown back is "Batman isn't the Punisher". And he's not. But I truly believe a guy like that is perfectly capable of realizing the threat the Joker presents... and wouldn't think twice about ending it. Permanently. That's not necessarily an attitude he'd take about some random purse-snatcher but a monster like the Joker? Sooner or later (sooner, I think) Batman would have to put him down.

"Realistically" speaking (even for a comic book/ fantasy setting like this), when someone goes out in the night to hunt down criminals, it's inevitable that people will get killed. Even when it's indirect e.g. a thug falls from a staircase/roof etc. after Batman roundhouse-kicks them, it still counts as a kill.

Personally I think it's not a problem if Batman kills as a "soldier" (i.e. in the heat of battle, when he has no other choice to save lives and his own skin so he can't pull his punches), as long as he doesn't act as an "executioner". The Punisher kills not only when he battles hordes of gangsters, but also when criminals are at his mercy and pose no immediate threat. He's an executioner.

^I agree with that take, when the kill is more colateral damage. I prefer the no-kill rule in part because of the dramatic tension it creates in some situations (ie, The Joker), but I understand that something deaths will happen.

I also like the no-kill rule because it provides this connection to Superman. I always loved that scene in Kingdom Come where Supes tells them that's what they share, that deep down Batman is "someone who doesn't want to see people die".

As part of the research for a blog I'm doing, I decided to check out this thread to see the amount of times that Batman had actually killed someone. And I have to say some of the examples that have been posted in this thread surprise me. Because Batman had a policy against killing people that was implemented very early on, yet he was still somehow killing people after that rule was introduced.

This panel from the 1,000 Secrets of the Batcave story, which was originally printed in Batman 48, Autumn 1948 is one of the earliest examples of this.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffotos.fotoflexer.com%2Fe00187419c23b774692019d36f3de378.jpg&hash=7bd10844e4e9a894192e584a1b86fba8a066fe2a)

I also like the "no-kills" rule. Ever since Rorschach, and especially the 90s, the trend for many comic book heroes was to be as "grim'n gritty" as possible and casually kill with no remorse (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDarkAgeOfComicBooks), so it is the dark hero with the moral code that feels "original".

This thread hasn't been bumped in a while, so here we go...

In 'An American Batman in London' (Detective Comics #590, September 1988), Batman knocks Abu Hassan out of a window by throwing one of his goons into him. Hassan falls and is impaled on a fence. Batman shouts "No!" as this happens, so it clearly wasn't intentional. We'll just chalk it up to clumsiness.


But there's nothing accidental about what he does to a group of Hassan's terrorist henchmen later in the story. Batman steals a car and uses it to mow them down at high speed, leaping out of the vehicle just before it hits them.


And just in case any of the terrorists survived, the impact of the collision triggers an explosive device one of them was carrying, blowing them all to smithereens.


In 'The Fear' (Detective Comics #592, November 1988) Batman kicks a drug-addicted suicide bomber into a safe, triggering the bomb he was carrying and killing him.


In 'Our Man in Havana' (Detective Comics #595, February 1989) Batman discovers a munitions factory belonging to the Alien Alliance. It is heavily guarded by representatives from several different alien species, including members of the Thangarian race. In the end Batman blows up the factory and everyone inside by ramming a boat filled with explosives into it.


In 'Family' (Legends of the Dark Knight #31, June 1992) Batman travels to the Corto Maltese to rescue Alfred from a South American racketeer named El Vato. As they are escaping El Vato's base, Alfred runs down a pair of soldiers using a stolen lorry. Batman then triggers some explosives he'd planted in a weapons depot, blowing the villains' base to smithereens and killing many of El Vato's men in the process. This was clearly a calculated and premeditated act. Right at the beginning of the comic Batman had thought to himself: "I want to kill them [...] God help me, Alfred. I may just kill tonight. If that's what it takes to save you."

And indeed he did.

Whenever I watch Batman Begins in which Batman constantly states how he will never kill it always feels to me like they were deliberately referencing the mistakes made in Batman Returns.

The thing about these comics is they were all written around the time the second movie was about to enter production. I'm not sure Daniel Waters was truly inspired by them. I believe it was merely the filmmakers darkening the hero and toughening up the world even more and the comics happened to have been doing a similar thing.

I remember the "Ecstacy" story moment most. Great intense scene. I always thought they should make that Ecstacy villain/concept an ongoing foe. A villain that only exists in a victims mind, or does it? Has a spooky supernatural feel like Scarface.

Batman's few kills have never really bothered me. I've always viewed them as an act of self defense. The flamethrower guy (in the red devil costume) got what he dserved in my opinion. Setting innocent people alight he was asking for the Batmobile afterburner lol In other ways even funny. I mean the moment he plants the dynamite on the big guy in Batman Returns, it was meant to be darkly funny. Guess it rubbed people the wrong way instead.

Alas, the death toll continues to mount.  :-[

Batman kills one of Kobra's henchmen in 'Serpent in the Sky!' (Batman and the Outsiders #26, October 1985) when he injects him with truth serum. The henchman had previously been conditioned using a poison reactive to truth serum. Batman didn't know this when he administered the lethal injection, so this one's definitely accidental.


Batman tricks two bad guys into stabbing each other to death in 'The Truth About Looker: Part Three' (Batman and the Outsiders #30, February 1986).


In Bride of the Demon (1990) Batman steals a fighter plane and flies it inside Ra's al Ghul's base. He uses the plane's weapons to open fire on a control room manned by several technicians, then activates the craft's self-destruct system, sets it on a collision course with the control room and ejects at the last second. The artwork clearly shows several people being killed in the resultant explosion. This in turn triggers a larger chain reaction that disturbs Ra's' Lazarus Pit and causes the entire base to blow up, killing countless people in the process.


The Thomas Wayne Batman kills Eobard Thawne/Reverse Flash in Flashpoint (2011) by stabbing him with an Amazon sword. In doing this, Batman saves Barry Allen's life so that the Flash can travel backwards in time and repair the damage to the timeline, thereby creating the current 'New 52' universe.


Of course Reverse Flash will undoubtedly return from the grave at some point. He's done so before. But at the time I'm writing this, he has yet to appear in the New 52 canon. And so his death at the hands of Batman still stands.

Earlier in Flashpoint, Batman had also attempted to kill the criminal Yo-Yo by throwing her off a rooftop. It was only the intervention of Cyborg that spared her life.

Well, I think that's enough carnage for now.

Unlike the animated adaption of the story where it makes it obvious that Batman did not kill the mutant holding the toddler hostage, I always found what happened in Miller's original comic to be ambiguous. Maybe the ambiguity was done on purpose?

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I've found more examples of Batman killing villains in the comics.

In Batman #340 (1981), Batman seemingly killed a mutated madman called The Mole, who was seeking revenge at a woman who was part of a parole-board hearing that denied him release from jail.
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In a short story titled Second Face: The Avenger - Innocent Blood during Batman Annual #9 (1985), Batman ingeniously killed off two criminal groups: a local militia and a gang of bank robbers who disguised themselves by stealing the militia's identity. As the two groups met to negotiate a deal to settle their dispute with each other, Batman lit up a firecracker, which tricked the two groups into thinking they were shooting at each other. As both gangs started firing, the bullets happen to hit a crate of explosives and blew up their hideout -instantly wiping each other out in the process. This example clearly shows that Batman wanted to avenge the deaths of all the innocent people who lost their lives because of these gangs.
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Finally, I found an example where Robin killed too, although not in cold blood. In Ten Nights of the Beast (1988), Robin prevented a suicidal bomber from murdering an entire police escort protecting President Ronald Reagan (who was actually Commissioner Gordon in disguise). Robin knocked the bomber's parachute just in time before the crook fell to his fiery death.
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Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  8 Jul  2010, 17:01
The Messiah of the Crimson Sun?Batman Annual #8 (1982): he kills Ra?s Al Ghul by drawing his spaceship into lethal sun rays
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It turns out he didn't die for good after all. Batman finds Ra's al Ghul in the Batcave– alive and breathing in Batman #400 (1985).
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In this issue, Ra's reveals to Batman that he helped the entire rogues gallery escape from Arkham Asylum and freed all the other convicts from the local state prison as well. His reason for doing this is to force Batman to make two choices to solve the crisis: either agree to join Ra's' al Ghul's crusade to take over the world in return for capturing the villains alive, or kill all of them instead. Neither were options that Batman was willing to take, and chooses to reject the ultimatum.

Having said that, Batman did end up killing Ra's in the end. As soon as Ra's al Ghul's plot was thwarted, Batman - along with Robin, Catwoman and Talia - track down Ra's hiding in a windmill, and use explosives to blow it up to begin an ambush. Batman finds Ra's, who has dipped himself alive in the Lazarus Pit in an attempt to beyond match Batman in combat; however, the Pit's unstable chemicals slowly killing him. As the two fight, the explosion unexpectedly sets off an earthquake in the area, and Batman outsmarts Ra's by flipping his slowly decaying body into the Pit, likely ending him for good this time.

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A few more examples of Batman being responsible for the deaths of other criminals include:
-Batman throwing a torch to burn supernatural flowers that keep an evil Mexican couple alive for more than a century in Detective Comics #395 (1970)...
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...as the flowers burn, the couple slowly disintegrate into decaying corpses...
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...and once they die, Batman writes down the year of their deaths on their tombstones.
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-Batman jumping above two armed thugs before they shoot him, and both of them end up murdering each other instead, in Batman #425 (1988). But it must be said that Batman regrets this happening.

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While I'm at it, I found another example of Robin having some blood on his hands yet again. In Batman #424 (1988), Jason Todd was outraged that Felipe Garzonas was about to get with murder because he had diplomatic immunity, despite the fact the crook's violent abuse and harassment of a young woman drove her to commit suicide. It is implied, albeit ambiguously, that Robin had sent Garzonas falling to his death.

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The ambiguity is left open to interpretation for the reader and Batman. *

*BTW: This was the beginning of the downfall for Jason Todd as Robin. As he was beginning to make some positive progress in his life by handing over Two-Face to the police instead of taking revenge for murdering his father, Jason's anger at losing his parents as well as the injustice of the legal system, not accepting defeat and his inability to save a victim from Garzonas were many factors that made him lose focus and he began to make rash decisions that ultimately got him killed by the Joker in A Death in the Family...until he was brought back to life again for Under the Hood decades later.

It should be noted that issues #424 and #425 are part of the Garzonas storyline, as the dead man's father comes to Gotham looking for revenge in the latter issue, only to be accidentally killed by Batman in the end. And one more thing I forgot to mention: it was Jason Todd as Robin who killed KGBeast's suicide bomber in Ten Nights of the Beast.

Does anybody else think that Batman technically killed the Joker when he snapped his neck in The Dark Knight Returns?

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I understand that the snap paralyzed the Joker, and the Joker committed suicide by tilting his neck further out of spite. But it still goes to show that Batman took a lethal course of action. Since there have been a few examples posted here where Batman caused deaths without meaning to, i.e. in self-defense (like in this example) or by accident, I believe that this can be considered as a kill too.

I think he really wanted to kill the Joker himself, but that was as far as he was willing to go.

Absolutely love that story.

As much as I like the 1989 Batman movie, one thing I didn't like in reflection is how Joker died. Although the "laughing bag" was a great, great touch.

What don't you like about it?

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun,  3 Jan  2016, 07:17
What don't you like about it?

I thought it should have been done in a way that gave us more of Batman's point of view, that's all. The way they did it wasn't bad at all, but it would've been more fitting for me if it was more of a direct final confrontation between Bruce and Jack.

Fair enough. Though for me, we get that with the whole "you killed my parents" back and forth.

Yes, we did... and it was a nice way for Joker to go down, pun intended, considering how arrogant he was about his apparent victory.

And despite that we don't get Batman's thoughts on Joker's demise, we do see that Batman won and the film ends in a triumphant way.

Anyway, great thread. I've read the Detective Comics Batman stories myself.

This really should be a feature, especially with some people acting like BvS is the first time Batman's ever killed before. While most people already know about the Golden Age Batman doing this, the feature would highlight all the parts where Batman took lives after his apparent vow against killing.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 30 Mar  2016, 17:58
This really should be a feature, especially with some people acting like BvS is the first time Batman's ever killed before. While most people already know about the Golden Age Batman doing this, the feature would highlight all the parts where Batman took lives after his apparent vow against killing.

Agreed. It needs to be made a feature. It's handy to have reference that proves the no-kill code is pretty routinely broken.

Basically, from what I recall, Batman only outright kills the goons in the vehicles. And Batman has done that a lot in the films. The confrontation in the warehouse with the flamethrower guy is manslaughter. He had to take some form of action to diffuse the situation. And throwing the grenades back is human nature, basically. No one wants to be around when an explosive goes off, so you toss it in the other direction.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 30 Mar  2016, 17:58This really should be a feature, especially with some people acting like BvS is the first time Batman's ever killed before. While most people already know about the Golden Age Batman doing this, the feature would highlight all the parts where Batman took lives after his apparent vow against killing.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Thu, 31 Mar  2016, 01:04Agreed. It needs to be made a feature. It's handy to have reference that proves the no-kill code is pretty routinely broken.

Which doesn't matter to people. Because they want a heroic Batman who doesn't kill people or has a rule against it that may get broken, but it's still something he tries to adhere to. That want the ideal, not the bare minimum. Have a very great day both of you!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

I prefer a Batman who doesn't kill, too. But the point of the feature isn't to try change people's preferences, so much as prove that the Batman's no kill policy isn't as strong or prevalent in the comics as they think. Same goes for the Joker's origin. Many people say he doesn't have an origin, but the countless versions of him falling into a chemical bath prove otherwise. It may not be people's preference, but it's still an origin story and it's been around for over 50 years.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Thu, 31 Mar  2016, 09:09
I prefer a Batman who doesn't kill, too. But the point of the feature isn't to try change people's preferences, so much as prove that the Batman's no kill policy isn't as strong or prevalent in the comics as they think. Same goes for the Joker's origin. Many people say he doesn't have an origin, but the countless versions of him falling into a chemical bath prove otherwise. It may not be people's preference, but it's still an origin story and it's been around for over 50 years.

Yes, whilst there may be a very strong argument for a Batman who doesn't kill, I do wish people (although no one here it should be emphasised) would stop saying that 'Batman never killed in the comic-books'.

We're all entitled to our own personal preferences, and I suspect mine might be more along the lines of yours and Dagenspear's but that doesn't make the Batman who does kill invalid, especially not in accordance with the comic-books.

'My' Batman is effectively what we see from Keaton and Affleck, and TDK Returns. I like my Batman to be no-nonsense and self sufficient.

I've been thinking about writing a feature on this subject for a while now. A comprehensive overview of Batman's changing attitudes to killing, the arguments for and against the 'no kill' rule, why it makes sense, why it doesn't make sense, where it contradicts itself, why it's important to certain stories, looking at both its real life an in-universe origins, etc and so forth.

For the record, I'm also one of those people who prefers the non-lethal Batman. Some of the greatest Batman narratives are ones in which the 'no kill' rule is put to the test, which in turn adds an extra layer of internal conflict to the character's struggles. But having said that, you can't just erase part of Batman's history because it doesn't gel with the latest interpretation. That's like editing 'politically incorrect' language out of classic works of literature. It's fundamentally dishonest and creates an inaccurate impression of the character's evolution.

Batman killing isn't some weird aberration they tested out in the seventies – it's part of the character's original make-up dating back to 1939. That doesn't mean people have to like it, but they should at least acknowledge it.

Some of my favourite Batman moments involve Batman putting down goons permanently. Case in point Ray Charles getting his noggin whacked on the bell and being thrown down the shaft. It's perfect to me. Self defence, unexpected and turning the tables on a seemingly hopeless situation. The same can be said of BvS's "I believe you" sequence with the flamethrower.

I'm torn on the issue, and it comes down to the situations they've put Batman in over the years.

At best, I prefer Batman to only kill when necessary. Something like walling-up KGBeast or pushing Harvey over the edge in The Dark Knight. When someone is too heinous to live, or there's a need to act in saving an innocent is what I like. Do I get mad when there's a Batman who is loose with his code of ethics? No. It's just another interpretation. There's more to the character than that. If Keaton or Affleck had been doing nothing BUT killing people, then it wouldn't be Batman.

A Batman can kill occasionally and still resemble the character. Neither Keaton nor Affleck killed a majority of their enemies. Straight-up using a handgun? I draw the line there. Seeing Batman use one in the dream sequence in BvS was just wrong. If Batman's gonna use guns, I prefer it to be treated more like a tool. The Browning machine guns to open Axis Chemicals in B89 is about right. In BvS, Bats uses the rifle to ignite a villain's backpack gas tank, which obviously kills him. But I'm all right with that. He started a domino effect that killed, as opposed to shooting the guy outright.

But going back to what I said earlier; "when someone is too heinous to live" fits my expectations of Batman killing. This presents us a problem in the comics (and now the DCCU). The Joker must die. I don't care what kind of reasons they've cooked up over the years, but there's no good reason for me why Batman hasn't done it. If they had never written stories like A Death in the Family or The Killing Joke and Joker was still a mere occasional killer, I might let it slide. But since the 1980s they've been making him more and more horrible. His entire goal has now become 'raising his body count'... and that's it. It makes for a great story, but it's unfulfilling when Batman lets him live; by doing that, he's guaranteeing more deaths. In the real world, it's because DC doesn't want to lose that character, I get that.

I don't know. I think Batman looks like a putz when he lets someone as horrible as The Joker live. Even somebody like Mr. Zasaz doesn't irk me so bad--he's not as good at breaking out of Arkham. He's a less frequent threat. The other villains, generally, have other motivations; murder is not their main goal but it's something they might do. The Joker, these days, only wants to murder innocents. It's a bit much.

But the film does indicate Batman has only recently snapped, using harsher methods. If he ran into The Joker during BvS, Ol' Jokey would have bought it. No doubt. I'm sure the code went out the window after Superman arrived. The good man turned cruel. And the dream sequence doesn't count in my eyes....because it's a dream sequence.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  2 Apr  2016, 06:07
But the film does indicate Batman has only recently snapped, using harsher methods. If he ran into The Joker during BvS, Ol' Jokey would have bought it. No doubt. I'm sure the code went out the window after Superman arrived. The good man turned cruel. And the dream sequence doesn't count in my eyes....because it's a dream sequence.

Those Doritos comics that were tied with BvS touched on this. There was some random thug who said something along the lines of "Batman was never this bad before".

Maybe I'll try to find the panel later?

Quote from: Travesty on Sat,  2 Apr  2016, 20:03

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  2 Apr  2016, 06:07
But the film does indicate Batman has only recently snapped, using harsher methods. If he ran into The Joker during BvS, Ol' Jokey would have bought it. No doubt. I'm sure the code went out the window after Superman arrived. The good man turned cruel. And the dream sequence doesn't count in my eyes....because it's a dream sequence.

Those Doritos comics that were tied with BvS touched on this. There was some random thug who said something along the lines of "Batman was never this bad before".

Maybe I'll try to find the panel later?

Yeah, I remember that one. I bet it's still not enough for the hater brigade. They've already made their mind up. That's what happens when you get on a negative train of thought. You ignore anything and everything because 'it sucks man'.

Well, here it is, just in case people were wanting to see it:

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Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Sat,  2 Apr  2016, 02:30
At best, I prefer Batman to only kill when necessary. Something like walling-up KGBeast or pushing Harvey over the edge in The Dark Knight.

I wouldn't have such a huge problem with Batman killing Two-Face...if he didn't spend the entire movie beforehand telling Joker he has a no-kill policy and endangered the entire city by refusing to kill him. That, together that he killed Ra's al Ghul because "he was trying to kill millions of innocent people", as he explained to Talia in TDKR, makes the whole "moral dilemma" against the Joker even more pointless. It's so mind-boggling and infuriating. >:(

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Sat,  2 Apr  2016, 02:30
But going back to what I said earlier; "when someone is too heinous to live" fits my expectations of Batman killing. This presents us a problem in the comics (and now the DCCU). The Joker must die. I don't care what kind of reasons they've cooked up over the years, but there's no good reason for me why Batman hasn't done it. If they had never written stories like A Death in the Family or The Killing Joke and Joker was still a mere occasional killer, I might let it slide. But since the 1980s they've been making him more and more horrible. His entire goal has now become 'raising his body count'... and that's it. It makes for a great story, but it's unfulfilling when Batman lets him live; by doing that, he's guaranteeing more deaths. In the real world, it's because DC doesn't want to lose that character, I get that.

I don't know. I think Batman looks like a putz when he lets someone as horrible as The Joker live. Even somebody like Mr. Zasaz doesn't irk me so bad--he's not as good at breaking out of Arkham. He's a less frequent threat. The other villains, generally, have other motivations; murder is not their main goal but it's something they might do. The Joker, these days, only wants to murder innocents. It's a bit much.

I absolutely agree. It's a problem I've had with a lot of modern comics. It depends on how the writers approach the story. By making it darker, it risks coming at the expense of the hero being unheroic, if that makes sense. In The Dark Knight's case, the writers wanted to enforce a moral conflict between Batman and the Joker, which didn't ring true after everything that Batman did to the other villains before and after. In other media, Batman tends to enforce his moral code consistently, which is fine. But once a story keeps emphasizing that the villains are deviant serial killers who are guaranteed to escape and do harm to innocent people again, you begin to question Batman and lose empathy for him.

It's a huge problem I had with Superman vs The Elite. In that film, Superman faced a conflict where traditional moral values are being challenged by another group of anti-heroes, who are secretly cold-blooded killers. They took advantage of a situation where they killed Atomic Skull after he had escaped from prison and begins another massacre, much to Superman's disapproval. As manipulative and corrupt as the Elite were, I couldn't help but see where they were coming from when they declared that the only situation to destroy all pure evil is to destroy it. Superman knew very well that Atomic Skull was a murderer and would seek to kill again and again, and yet he still abides his belief that the greater good is found in everyone. It reached a point where I found Superman to be morally irresponsible, and that's something I don't want in a comic book story.

It's all about treatment. If writers want to have Batman, Superman or whoever else to face up against deranged killers, they need to tread carefully when it comes to the ramifications of the damage they bring.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  2 Apr  2016, 06:07
But the film does indicate Batman has only recently snapped, using harsher methods. If he ran into The Joker during BvS, Ol' Jokey would have bought it. No doubt. I'm sure the code went out the window after Superman arrived. The good man turned cruel. And the dream sequence doesn't count in my eyes....because it's a dream sequence.

Whether that sequence was a dream or an alternate reality, I honestly don't care if Batman resorts to using guns at the moment. Why? Because the world appeared to be in apocalyptic ruin and the odds are totally stacked against him. As soon as Batman was double-crossed, he was already outnumbered by stormtroopers and his own troops were shot to death. Either he surrenders easily and faces an instant death sentence, or fights back to survive as best as he can. If it means taking up guns, then so be it.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  2 Apr  2016, 23:31Yeah, I remember that one. I bet it's still not enough for the hater brigade. They've already made their mind up. That's what happens when you get on a negative train of thought. You ignore anything and everything because 'it sucks man'.

Why would something that's not in the movie change their minds about the movie?

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun,  3 Apr  2016, 00:49I wouldn't have such a huge problem with Batman killing Two-Face...if he didn't spend the entire movie beforehand telling Joker he has a no-kill policy and endangered the entire city by refusing to kill him. That, together that he killed Ra's al Ghul because "he was trying to kill millions of innocent people", as he explained to Talia in TDKR, makes the whole "moral dilemma" against the Joker even more pointless. It's so mind-boggling and infuriating. >:(

He didn't kill Ra's. So, that line, if it's meant to imply that he did, is wrong. And him killing Harvey was an accident. Batman's never in a position in TDK where him killing the Joker to save someone is a consequence.

QuoteI absolutely agree. It's a problem I've had with a lot of modern comics. It depends on how the writers approach the story. By making it darker, it risks coming at the expense of the hero being unheroic, if that makes sense. In The Dark Knight's case, the writers wanted to enforce a moral conflict between Batman and the Joker, which didn't ring true after everything that Batman did to the other villains before and after. In other media, Batman tends to enforce his moral code consistently, which is fine. But once a story keeps emphasizing that the villains are deviant serial killers who are guaranteed to escape and do harm to innocent people again, you begin to question Batman and lose empathy for him.

It's a huge problem I had with Superman vs The Elite. In that film, Superman faced a conflict where traditional moral values are being challenged by another group of anti-heroes, who are secretly cold-blooded killers. They took advantage of a situation where they killed Atomic Skull after he had escaped from prison and begins another massacre, much to Superman's disapproval. As manipulative and corrupt as the Elite were, I couldn't help but see where they were coming from when they declared that the only situation to destroy all pure evil is to destroy it. Superman knew very well that Atomic Skull was a murderer and would seek to kill again and again, and yet he still abides his belief that the greater good is found in everyone. It reached a point where I found Superman to be morally irresponsible, and that's something I don't want in a comic book story.

It's all about treatment. If writers want to have Batman, Superman or whoever else to face up against deranged killers, they need to tread carefully when it comes to the ramifications of the damage they bring.

No, I'm sorry. People aren't responsible for the actions of others because they didn't stop them at some point before. Have a very great day both of you!

God bless you both! God bless everyone!

It makes me wonder if there shouldn't be loose guidelines to Batman taking life. So far, the common denominators appear to be:

01- The result of collateral damage- The result of a domino effect (ie, confounding Two-Face in BF so that he loses his balance and falls).
02- No malice aforethought- Death cannot be the intended outcome; only a possible outcome (ie, knocking Two-Face off a building to save Gordon's son in TDK, which wasn't necessarily a guaranteed fatality).
03- Defense- Malice aforethought to save lives (ie, dropping Ray Charles down a belfry to save Vicki in B89).
04- Heinousness- Malice aforethought for hopeless cases (ie, the comic Joker's sole purpose is to kill; Batman's doing society a favor by killing him).

These are harder for all writers at all times in all places to rationalize. It's more complicated and isn't so easily reduced to "I don't kill". These rules aren't really soundbyte-friendly.

These are even harder for readers to contextualize. Most people are blithering idiots. The more nuanced and layered something is, the fewer people will understand it.

So hmm.

My guidelines are simple.

The situation always dictates your response.

Damn, this is one of my favorite threads on this forum, and all of the panels are gone. Re-upload?

Quote from: Travesty on Mon,  4 Dec  2017, 17:43
Damn, this is one of my favorite threads on this forum, and all of the panels are gone. Re-upload?

Done.

Here are a few more.

In The Dark Knight Strikes Again (2001-2002) – quite possibly the single worst Batman comic ever written – the captive Bruce Wayne tells Lex Luthor "I'm just here to make sure you get killed."


Bruce then allows his captor to torture him in order to distract Luthor long enough for Hawkboy to arrive, whereupon Batman gleefully informs Lex "you're about to die".


Hawkboy crushes Luthor's skull and Batman expresses his delight, much to the Flash's disdain.


Bruce later takes credit for Luthor's fate and confirms that he orchestrated his death.

At the end of this story Batman kills Dick Grayson by knocking him into a pool of lava.


In 'Fire & Ice' (Batman: Gotham Knights Vol 1 #59, January 2005) Batman uses a henchman as a human shield against Mr Freeze's gun.


Batman then shatters the frozen goon in order to free his own hands from the ice.


In 'A Rush of Blood' (Batman: The Dark Knight Vol 2 #2, December 2011) Batman confronts one of the Joker's henchmen on the roof of a train. Batman is facing the direction the train is heading and sees an oncoming bridge that is about to hit the henchman in the back. The Dark Knight makes no attempt to warn or save the hapless goon, but instead stands by and watches as he is killed.


Since many of the comics listed in this thread aren't canon anyway, I wonder if it might be as well to start including examples from Elseworlds books. There are many, many examples of Batman killing in those stories. Their addition to this list would help keep the thread going. And with over 57,000 views (!) it does seem to be a popular subject.

Thanks for fixing, and I love the new examples.

You should totally go for it with the Elseworlds examples, Silver. They're comics and he's Batman so it fits, right?

Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 16 Sep  2010, 22:43
who the hell is skeeter and why the hell did batman stab her? good lord she looks like me and the only way him or supes could beat her was impalement? wtf?

lol I remember asking this. Got the answer a couple pages later that she was a vampire so it all made sense but when I first scrolled past the image it freaked me out. Of course as god awful annoying as I was way back then (2010! damn!) I think Batman would have stabbed me in the back even if I hadn't been a vampire.

"Master Bruce, might I inquire about this, ahem, new addition to the trophy room?" "It's my ode to bitches who just won't shut up, Alfred." "Very good sir."

Quote from: Travesty on Tue, 16 Jan  2018, 00:21
Thanks for fixing, and I love the new examples.

Happy to oblige. :) We certainly are a bloodthirsty lot here on Batman-Online, aren't we?

Quote from: Catwoman on Tue, 16 Jan  2018, 01:03
You should totally go for it with the Elseworlds examples, Silver. They're comics and he's Batman so it fits, right?

Agreed. The Dark Knight Returns books are technically Elseworlds stories anyway, so we may as well add more to the list.

To begin with, here are some examples of Batman killing from Batman: Dark Joker - the Wild (1993). In this book Batman is portrayed as a mythical creature – half human, half beast. Early in the story he displays the low intelligence of an animal and is shown hunting and killing creatures in the woods. His level of intelligence gradually increases to that of a human, at which point his sister teaches him the evils of taking life. However, unlike the mainstream comic book Batman, this version acknowledges that it is acceptable to kill beings of evil in order to protect the innocent.

He first kills in this manner when he destroys a group of the Dark Joker's airships that are attacking a town, thereby slaying the troll-like creatures on board.

Later he snaps the neck of a townsman named Tomlin, who had been driven insane by the Dark Joker's sorcery.


Towards the end of the book Batman masters the use of his late father's magical talisman. With this, he destroys more of the airships in the Dark Joker's fleet.


He also uses the talisman to directly kill some of the Dark Joker's soldiers.


The finale of this story is reminiscent of the denouement from the 1989 Batman film, with Batman and the Dark Joker fighting in the eyrie of a towering gothic citadel. Their confrontation concludes with Batman tearing out the Joker's throat with his teeth...


...and hurling him from the citadel so that his body is dashed upon the rocks far below.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 14 Jan  2018, 21:16
Since many of the comics listed in this thread aren't canon anyway, I wonder if it might be as well to start including examples from Elseworlds books. There are many, many examples of Batman killing in those stories. Their addition to this list would help keep the thread going. And with over 57,000 views (!) it does seem to be a popular subject.

What is canon?

(https://preview.ibb.co/e5ajj6/canon.jpg)

Other than elseworlds where Batman is something blatantly different than a crimefighter (a demon, a vampire, a pirate etc.) or dream sequences/hallucinations, if the fatalities are from officially published comics which someone can pick up and read, well, they "exist". Miller's Batman is "elseworlds", but also a legitimate Batman (no matter how awful Strikes Again is).

Someone on YouTube has made a video on this subject. Is it just my imagination, or does his list look identical to the first page in this thread?


Apparently he only looked at the first page, as there are many, many more examples of Batman killing listed elsewhere in this discussion. He also left out the examples of Batman killing in the 1943 film serial, Batman Forever and the Nolan films.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 29 Sep  2018, 15:53
Someone on YouTube has made a video on this subject. Is it just my imagination, or does his list look identical to the first page in this thread?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0SDdZ4D_cs

Apparently he only looked at the first page, as there are many, many more examples of Batman killing listed elsewhere in this discussion. He also left out the examples of Batman killing in the 1943 film serial, Batman Forever and the Nolan films.

I've wondered about the originality of this YouTube channel for a while now. The videos of his which I've seen, particularly the one about Greg Land, seemed to lift directly from other sources with which I'm familiar.

In Land's case, making the argument that he traces and recycles is a matter of consensus and, logically, proving it will require using the same sources which others use to make a similar point. But I can't shake the idea that this YouTuber almost-plagiarizes some of his material... although doing a video about how Greg Land plagiarizes from other artists by plagiarizing the work of researchers is kind of meta or something.

Anyway, there's a plausible deniability with all this so I don't want to sound too accusatory. But I've wondered about Comic Tropes for quite some time now.

There's a growing number of bloggers and YouTubers out there trying to pass themselves off as authorities on comic book history, but only a small number of them have the knowledge to back it up. Not that I mind people referencing information presented on this site. It would just be nice if they credited us when they did so. Especially if they're making money off our research. It bugs me when I stumble across a blog or message board where someone's copied and pasted something I've written on Batman-Online and tried to pass it off as their own. Like this guy:

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 23 Sep  2012, 11:06
I was just browsing the web and I came across this thread: http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1694257
Notice how the user djthefunkchris just copied and pasted the first post from this thread, then claimed that he came up with all those references himself.

QuoteAdam's right, I overdid it. I honestly didn't even realise how many I found.. I was just trying to find one per year, but it grew.

Must have been hard work finding all those references.  >:(

And this guy:

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 28 Jan  2013, 19:14
Does anyone know who this blog belongs to?

http://batmannrobinonfilm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/batman-and-robin-was-actually-more.html

They've posted my analysis as their own work, editing it to remove the references to BatmAngelus and Gotham Alleys. They've even posted my avatar for some reason. I wouldn't mind too much, except it seems to be an anti-Nolan pro-Batman and Robin (1997) site :-[

What ComicTropes did in that video isn't exactly plagiarism, but the research is clearly taken from the first page of this thread. The proof lies not only in the comics he lists, but in the comics he doesn't list. There are dozens of examples of Batman killing which aren't mentioned in his video. The examples he does mention just happen to correspond with the ones I listed in the OP.

Anyway, since I'm bumping this thread...

Robin kills a gangster during his debut story – 'Robin the Boy Wonder' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #38, April 1940) – by kicking him off a girder on a construction site.


In 'The Case of the Missing Link' (Batman Vol 1 #2, June 1940), Robin kills Goliath by knocking him off a circus girder with his slingshot.


In 'The Man Who Couldn't Remember' (World's Finest Vol 1 #2, June 1941), Batman kills Ambrose Taylor by punching him off a balcony and sending him plummeting to his death.


In 'Dark City Part V' (Batman Vol 2 #29, May 2014) – part of the Zero Year storyline – Batman rigs an explosive to a console aboard a dirigible and is soon after attacked by Doctor Death/Karl Helfern. Helfern is about to kill Batman, when the Dark Knight activates the bomb. Helfern is wounded by the blast and the shrapnel triggers his body's regenerative powers, causing his bones to mutate and crush his internal organs, thereby killing him.

At the risk of going off-topic, should we arrange for index/reference threads like this to be visible only to members? Seems like that might be the only way to slow down the thieves.

I recognize the viral nature of information, especially images (like comics). But what some of these people are doing is way over the line.

We could limit access to site members, but I'd prefer to leave them open if possible. This thread in particular is one of the most highly viewed and brings in a lot of site traffic. The good thing is that we're constantly revisiting old discussions like these and updating them, so even if someone does rip off an earlier version they're only getting part of the overall picture.

It's a small YT channel, so what are you gonna do? But if he did lift from this thread(which I don't know if he did or not), he should credit Silver Nemesis. I know I basically copy/pasted this thread over to SHH a few years ago, but I asked permission from Silver Nemesis beforehand, and I clearly credited him at the top of the thread, as well. Although, that thread devolved into people bickering about how BvS sucks, and how all the examples don't count for whatever reason. There's a certain member over there that is way too thickheaded about Batman killing. He's in this weird denial phase, where he denies most of the comic references and the Nolan movies, but uses it against certain comics or movies he hates. He's....weird.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 22:04
It's a small YT channel, so what are you gonna do? But if he did lift from this thread(which I don't know if he did or not), he should credit Silver Nemesis. I know I basically copy/pasted this thread over to SHH a few years ago, but I asked permission from Silver Nemesis beforehand, and I clearly credited him at the top of the thread, as well. Although, that thread devolved into people bickering about how BvS sucks, and how all the examples don't count for whatever reason. There's a certain member over there that is way too thickheaded about Batman killing. He's in this weird denial phase, where he denies most of the comic references and the Nolan movies, but uses it against certain comics or movies he hates. He's....weird.

He's a delusional hypocrite. Simple as that.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue,  2 Oct  2018, 22:04
It's a small YT channel, so what are you gonna do? But if he did lift from this thread(which I don't know if he did or not), he should credit Silver Nemesis. I know I basically copy/pasted this thread over to SHH a few years ago, but I asked permission from Silver Nemesis beforehand, and I clearly credited him at the top of the thread, as well. Although, that thread devolved into people bickering about how BvS sucks, and how all the examples don't count for whatever reason. There's a certain member over there that is way too thickheaded about Batman killing. He's in this weird denial phase, where he denies most of the comic references and the Nolan movies, but uses it against certain comics or movies he hates. He's....weird.

No offense intended. But SHH is one of those forums I never understood. Or could tolerate for very long.

In fact, there aren't very many geek-oriented forums worthy of praise, come to think of it. But there's a certain competing forum out there that we all know (some of us only too well) which puts SHH to shame.

Shame, Travesty.

This nameless Batman forum which I'm not naming puts SHH to shame.

I'm very disappointed in this website. Despite the fact this thread exists, Batman-Online's Twitter page shared a rather disingenuous video to "prove its point" over why Batman doesn't kill in an effort to criticise BvS; specifically appearing to mock Zack Snyder for his creative decision. While ignoring the many times Batman had killed in live action, let alone the comics. What's worse is the site's tweet had the audacity to write the word "Truth".

https://twitter.com/batmanonlinecom/status/1049062378267205634

Tell me something, do you think the YouTuber who made this video is being truthful if he refuses to answer questions over whether or not he had the same distaste when Batman killed in other media? Or conveniently dismisses fans as cultists? Judging by the interaction in these links here, I'd say no.

https://twitter.com/Stemot1978/status/1047935423237038080
https://twitter.com/HiTopFilms/status/1047929169160654848

Nothing more infuriating than misinformed videos getting monetised than people spreading it, and thinking it's gospel. Shameful.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon,  8 Oct  2018, 11:35
I'm very disappointed in this website. Despite the fact this thread exists, Batman-Online's Twitter page shared a rather disingenuous video to "prove its point" over why Batman doesn't kill in an effort to criticise BvS; specifically appearing to mock Zack Snyder for his creative decision. While ignoring the many times Batman had killed in live action, let alone the comics. What's worse is the site's tweet had the audacity to write the word "Truth".

https://twitter.com/batmanonlinecom/status/1049062378267205634

Tell me something, do you think the YouTuber who made this video is being truthful if he refuses to answer questions over whether or not he had the same distaste when Batman killed in other media? Or conveniently dismisses fans as cultists? Judging by the interaction in these links here, I'd say no.

https://twitter.com/Stemot1978/status/1047935423237038080
https://twitter.com/HiTopFilms/status/1047929169160654848

Nothing more infuriating than misinformed videos getting monetised than people spreading it, and thinking it's gospel. Shameful.

The general consensus around here seems to be that it's not exactly heresy for Batman to take a life. Ditto with our general pro-Snyder viewpoints.

But to be fair to Ral, he's under no obligation to agree with any of us. It's good to be king, right? If his conception of Batman veers toward a more merciful take on the character, well, I'm in no position to tell him he's wrong.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon,  8 Oct  2018, 20:14
The general consensus around here seems to be that it's not exactly heresy for Batman to take a life. Ditto with our general pro-Snyder viewpoints.

But to be fair to Ral, he's under no obligation to agree with any of us. It's good to be king, right? If his conception of Batman veers toward a more merciful take on the character, well, I'm in no position to tell him he's wrong.

I'm not saying anyone has to like BvS. The point I'm making is if people are going to throw that movie under the bus because Batman killing as one of their main reasons, they might as well do the same for the rest of the films in live action. A video like that only enforces double standards.

I won't push this issue too hard, because while I don't have a problem with Batman occasionally using lethal force, I do share color's sentiment. However, if people have no problem with this...

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.crackedcdn.com%2Fphpimages%2Farticle%2F8%2F9%2F9%2F654899_v3_mobile.gif&hash=85c31e065057f9411271c9681343f237e18c5a0d)

...they shouldn't have a problem with this:

(https://img.cinemablend.com/cb/c/c/2/6/9/1/cc26916efc5ebf7d092d24f24ddfaae6053e05d219c36531f4a118ea70985d0d.gif)

Food for thought to whoever shared that pretentious Batman doesn't kill video on Batman-Online's Twitter page: I just found out that HiTop Films also made a video explaining why B89 is a "bad Batman" movie.  ::)

Anyway, I stumbled across spoilers for Batman #57 last week:
https://insidepulse.com/2018/10/18/dc-comics-universe-batman-57-spoilers-batman-vs-kgbeast-in-brutal-fight-over-shooting-of-nightwing/

KGBeast will probably survive, but it's another example of how Batman isn't always mercyful.

Here are a few more examples of Batman killing, including other members of the Batman family who have blood on their hands too.

In Batman/Green Arrow: The Poison Tomorrow, Batman punches one of Poison Ivy's goons driving a truck carrying baby food tainted with the plague. This frantic course of action makes the other goon sitting next to the driver to try and regain control of the wheel, but fails, and the truck skids off the bridge and crashes. As Batman survives and crawls out of the explosive wreckage, you can read the narration saying he doubts the goons' chances of survival.

(https://i.imgur.com/IEMZbN6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RsRZQDu.jpg)

When DC's three biggest heroes united to hunt for Ra's al Ghul's nuclear warheads in Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman: Trinity, Diana is stabbed by one of Ra's al Ghul's loyal servants, and Batman retaliates by striking the villain with a Batarang, which causes her to fall to her death.

(https://i.imgur.com/BkgDNVF.jpg)

Okay, that's enough of Batman. Now, who else joins him and Robin in the same company who have killed? Would you believe it, it's Barbara Gordon...and Alfred Pennyworth.

During the final pages of the Elseworlds story Batman: Thrillkiller, Barbara adopts the Robin costume and returns to crime-fighting just in time to rescue Batman, who was held captive by Bianca Steeplechase (aka the story's female version of the Joker). Barbara gets her revenge on Bianca for murdering her lover Dick Grayson (aka the original Robin, naturally), by charging at her head-on into the bay...

(https://i.imgur.com/TfIbEpM.jpg)

...and leaves her behind with her foot tied up, letting her drown to death.

(https://i.imgur.com/tXGsEoL.jpg)

In the final moments of Batman: Earth One Vol. 1, Alfred comes to Bruce's rescue when the Penguin is about to finish him off.

(https://i.imgur.com/qvFBBcj.jpg)

The shotgun blast sends the Penguin flying out of the window of his office, and his dead, bloodied body lands into the ground.

(https://i.imgur.com/4Qr2qq4.jpg)

Since this has become relevant again with the media taking Zack Snyder's quotes out of context and many notable creatives taking issue with Snyder based on the deliberately misleading articles I'd like to add my own contribution. I'll give Bruce the benefit of the doubt and assume he simply dodged out of the way of the rock and didn't throw it since apart from his hand gesture nothing could support this in my mind. With that said him dodging allowed the rock to hit the guy and when he blew up Bruce didn't even flinch. So this idea that Bruce values all human life so highly including a criminals seems misinformed. Also he admits to killing in the next image.

^That first example came from No Man's Land, where we see Batman returning to Gotham City and saves Alfred. I must admit, when I first saw this image, I initially thought he deflected the rock with his hand and threw at the crook behind him because of the way he folded his arm as he ducked under. At best, the incident was a result of collateral damage.

While we're on the subject, I saw this tweet by a novelist called Andrew Shvarts on his thoughts over Batman's moral code:

Quote
Batman's refusal to kill (and magical ability to never do so) is a narrative cheat to allow readers the thrill of brutal vigilantism while avoiding any moral recrimination or complexity

Source: https://twitter.com/Shvartacus/status/1133410269034475527

Ignoring the fact this thread has many examples of Batman killing in the comics, I think Shvarts is onto something here. While I prefer Batman stories to choose whether or not Batman kills and stick with it unless it has reasonable character development behind it, a lot of people really don't want to be faced with a story where Batman's conduct and morality comes into question. This is despite the fact that Batman's conduct is highly dangerous and life-threatening enough even without killing people directly, as Shvarts alludes to.

Tons of these fans praise Batman for being a "grounded" character, but then they expect him to find a way out of situations that are anything but realistic. Even worse is their hypocrisies when they deny Batman kills someone whenever it's convenient. No wonder paying lip service to certain ideals resonates so much to people. As long as the hero says something that sounds righteous and doesn't really sound like he's painting himself in a bad light no matter what he does, it helps them enjoy the story better. It's simply not intellectually honest.

But even putting that aside, from a realistic point of view, Batman can't afford to avoid using lethal force. Whether it's in self-defense, or saving mass-murderers from the greater good. It's simply not practical. Sure, it's a nice sentiment for Batman to have by saying "But if I do that, if I allow myself to go down into that place, I'll never come back" in the animated Under the Red Hood movie, but if you think about it too much from a logical point of view instead of an emotional one, it doesn't add up. I enjoy the story otherwise as comic book fiction, but it's hardly as enthralling as a character arc you'd see in Batman's journey in, say, BvS.

People, both fans and writers, need to be more consistent with what they want with the character.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 16 Oct  2019, 13:19
^That first example came from No Man's Land, where we see Batman returning to Gotham City and saves Alfred. I must admit, when I first saw this image, I initially thought he deflected the rock with his hand and threw at the crook behind him because of the way he folded his arm as he ducked under. At best, the incident was a result of collateral damage.

While we're on the subject, I saw this tweet by a novelist called Andrew Shvarts on his thoughts over Batman's moral code:

Quote
Batman's refusal to kill (and magical ability to never do so) is a narrative cheat to allow readers the thrill of brutal vigilantism while avoiding any moral recrimination or complexity

Source: https://twitter.com/Shvartacus/status/1133410269034475527

Ignoring the fact this thread has many examples of Batman killing in the comics, I think Shvarts is onto something here. While I prefer Batman stories to choose whether or not Batman kills and stick with it unless it has reasonable character development behind it, a lot of people really don't want to be faced with a story where Batman's conduct and morality comes into question. This is despite the fact that Batman's conduct is highly dangerous and life-threatening enough even without killing people directly, as Shvarts alludes to.

Tons of these fans praise Batman for being a "grounded" character, but then they expect him to find a way out of situations that are anything but realistic. Even worse is their hypocrisies when they deny Batman kills someone whenever it's convenient. No wonder paying lip service to certain ideals resonates so much to people. As long as the hero says something that sounds righteous and doesn't really sound like he's painting himself in a bad light no matter what he does, it helps them enjoy the story better. It's simply not intellectually honest.

But even putting that aside, from a realistic point of view, Batman can't afford to avoid using lethal force. Whether it's in self-defense, or saving mass-murderers from the greater good. It's simply not practical. Sure, it's a nice sentiment for Batman to have by saying "But if I do that, if I allow myself to go down into that place, I'll never come back" in the animated Under the Red Hood movie, but if you think about it too much from a logical point of view instead of an emotional one, it doesn't add up. I enjoy the story otherwise as comic book fiction, but it's hardly as enthralling as a character arc you'd see in Batman's journey in, say, BvS.

People, both fans and writers, need to be more consistent with what they want with the character.

I have to agree with much of this. Particularly the "magical ability to never kill". Batman is trained in deadly forms of combat. Some people are tougher than others. Some of the strikes Batman uses on perps would be fatal if used against certain types of people. Batman might not intend to take their lives but if he were to strike somebody with too much force or simply hit somebody who is already weak to begin with... yeah, they're goners.

Still, I can add a tiny bit of nuance here that what Batman is ultimately trying to protect himself from is a desire to kill. I think a no-kill Batman would be okay with it if perps died because of his actions but in spite of his intentions. I think he's able to compartmentalize that easily. What I think Batman fears is intentionally taking human life. Because I think he knows he'd enjoy it. Ego suggested that much.

However literally one wants to interpret it, the "bat-demon" tells Bruce that the real reason he doesn't intentionally kill is because he understands he wouldn't be able to stop once he got started. Just once would be enough.

Yes yes yes, different writers have different perspectives so that angle doesn't line up with other comics. And that's fine. I'm just throwing it out there.

The throwing of a punch is not something to do flippantly. I encourage everyone to control themselves and walk away, no matter how hard that may be. The consequences are just too great. The reality is that it only takes one punch to kill someone. It's usually the head hitting the ground that does the job. Batman operates in a world of constant combat given he's dealing with criminals, so the law of averages suggests he has crippled people and made others expired vegetables.

I don't have anything new to add but I wanted to swing by and let you all know that I appreciate the research and dedication everyone here has put into this list. When BvS hit theaters, I put my entire understanding of the character under a microscope especially his rule because I felt there was something I wasn't getting. In my search I found this list and it's changed my entire view of that aspect of the character. At this point I believe his rule is "no murder" not "no killing" considering both are very different. If he kills defensively, he's not breaking any sort of rules.

I'm not sure if this is cool with you guys or not but every single time I see myself in a discussion regarding "Batman never kills" I always share a link to this page and 9 times out of 10 they don't have much to say after...so I may be one reason why some people are seeing this...but I think they should.

I don't know whether this has been asked or not, I've only glanced at most of this thread,  but when did this "Batman never kills" misunderstanding take shape? Did it really hit the fan with the TDK trilogy?

Anyways, great work everyone.

Quote from: Sktchwlkr on Mon, 17 Feb  2020, 03:33
I don't have anything new to add but I wanted to swing by and let you all know that I appreciate the research and dedication everyone here has put into this list. When BvS hit theaters, I put my entire understanding of the character under a microscope especially his rule because I felt there was something I wasn't getting. In my search I found this list and it's changed my entire view of that aspect of the character. At this point I believe his rule is "no murder" not "no killing" considering both are very different. If he kills defensively, he's not breaking any sort of rules.

I'm not sure if this is cool with you guys or not but every single time I see myself in a discussion regarding "Batman never kills" I always share a link to this page and 9 times out of 10 they don't have much to say after...so I may be one reason why some people are seeing this...but I think they should.

I don't know whether this has been asked or not, I've only glanced at most of this thread,  but when did this "Batman never kills" misunderstanding take shape? Did it really hit the fan with the TDK trilogy?

It got pretty ugly after each of Nolan's films, tbh. He took life through passive as well as direct means in each film and that was greeted with some considerable controversy.

For my part, the existence of Batman implies the need for him to act extra-judicially in eradicating threats to Gotham. By any means necessary. On the one hand, death is not an appropriate punishment to dole out to purse-snatchers. And Comic Book Batman knows that. But on the other hand, you're hard-pressed to argue that Comic Book Joker, for example, hasn't earned his own execution a thousand times over.

Now, Comic Book Bruce claims to want to be better than his own enemies... while knowing that he's lying. Dick, Tim, Babs and all the rest buy that because, when the chips are down, they don't REALLY know Bruce. Nobody does, imo.

But my take is that Bruce knows that if he ever willfully takes human life, he's DONE. Forever. The bat-demon in his soul will consume him and he'll be a blood-thirsty murderer for all eternity, always looking for his next victim. And he knows the time will come when he doesn't care about his next victim's guilt or innocence anymore. He will need to fill his thirst for murder using whoever he can get his hands on. The victim's guilt will be a non-issue for him by that point.

To avoid that fate, I believe that Bruce has struck a bizarre internal balance. He has tamed the bat-demon, at least to the point where he can using the darkness in his own soul to bring justice to the guilty. But he has to protect his soul with great care because he's One Bad Day away from becoming a monster far worse than ANY of his rogue's gallery. He constantly maintains a very tenuous compromise with himself. And that delicate balance becomes endangered every single time he puts on the mask. But normalcy was never an option for Bruce, now was it? :D

Like I say, Bruce's allies mostly buy that. "We have to be better than our enemies" and similar nonsense. They accept that BS at face value. And that's precious! Gordon, Dick, Tim, Babs and all the rest are Bruce's insurance policy against himself. I think it's important that Bruce has intentionally surrounded himself with people who will take him down if he ever goes too far. If he ever has One Bad Day, they will be able to put him down for good. They don't realize it but that's probably the only reason Bruce keeps them around, I suspect.

I will never write a Batman comic book. But if I ever do, that will pretty much be my take on the character.

I just look at Batman like a cop. They have guns that the State issues them, and sometimes they have to use that to kill people, but at the end of the day, they're not knocking on doors shooting random people, or even using it in all situations. It's more for defense. So if Batman kills in defense, I don't see a problem with it, but if he plans out a murder, then it starts crossing the line. Which was the entire point of his character in BvS, lol.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue, 18 Feb  2020, 14:20
I just look at Batman like a cop. They have guns that the State issues them, and sometimes they have to use that to kill people, but at the end of the day, they're not knocking on doors shooting random people, or even using it in all situations. It's more for defense. So if Batman kills in defense, I don't see a problem with it, but if he plans out a murder, then it starts crossing the line. Which was the entire point of his character in BvS, lol.

I pretty much agree. The purpose of Batman as a crimefighter, first and foremost, is becoming a terrible thought to gangs. If he doesn't have that mystique he cannot operate effectively because he will be considered weak. That's the tightrope Batman must walk in comparison to super powered heroes. Therefore the intensity of his combat must be consistent, which raises the likelihood of collateral damage.

Generally speaking Batman is content with scaring people and breaking bones. The wrestle is maintaining his humanity from the Bat Demon, as colors puts it, which is also brilliantly communicated in Ego. He has to be both Bruce Wayne and Batman, even if the Batman persona is dominant. He's a scary thought to the underworld but a symbol of good to the public.

Quote from: Travesty on Tue, 18 Feb  2020, 14:20
I just look at Batman like a cop. They have guns that the State issues them, and sometimes they have to use that to kill people, but at the end of the day, they're not knocking on doors shooting random people, or even using it in all situations. It's more for defense. So if Batman kills in defense, I don't see a problem with it, but if he plans out a murder, then it starts crossing the line. Which was the entire point of his character in BvS, lol.

I completely agree Travesty. This is exactly my thoughts to. I think if the fanbase had more of this thinking, there may be less tension and scrutinizing of Batman's actions.

Quote from: Sktchwlkr on Thu, 20 Feb  2020, 02:13
I completely agree Travesty. This is exactly my thoughts to. I think if the fanbase had more of this thinking, there may be less tension and scrutinizing of Batman's actions.

I'm inclined to the belief that a diversity of viewpoints about the character is what makes everything interesting.

Quote from: Sktchwlkr on Mon, 17 Feb  2020, 03:33
I'm not sure if this is cool with you guys or not but every single time I see myself in a discussion regarding "Batman never kills" I always share a link to this page and 9 times out of 10 they don't have much to say after...so I may be one reason why some people are seeing this...but I think they should.

Welcome to the forum. I've seen some people sharing this thread elsewhere and even making a similar list of examples online around the internet, so you're definitely not alone in that regard. I suspect more people are slowly waking up and acknowledging "Batman NEVER kills" is a myth, but not nearly fast enough.

Quote from: Sktchwlkr on Mon, 17 Feb  2020, 03:33
I don't know whether this has been asked or not, I've only glanced at most of this thread,  but when did this "Batman never kills" misunderstanding take shape? Did it really hit the fan with the TDK trilogy?

If you're asking if the myth took shape because of TDK trilogy paying lip service to the rule, then yes, I'd say that's true. The thing is, Nolan presented those kills in a way that people were encouraged to find a loophole and overlook Batman's responsibility for his actions, which made them feel comfortable in ignoring such inconsistencies. The other film versions didn't do that. You have to acknowledge that Batman kills. It doesn't matter if there is a narrative point behind it, people will tend to reject it if it doesn't make them feel good, or lacks some heroic sounding monologue to accompany the course of action.

Combine this with revisionist history over Batman killing in the comics, as well as ignorance and pure dishonesty being contributing factors, you get this misinformation getting big as it got.

But another factor I'd like to point out: you know how you distinguish the difference between murdering and killing? I notice most people aren't able to do that. They persistent in their argument against the character from killing at all costs, but fail to apply that criteria among their favourite interpretations. This proves that they failed to think any of this through.

As I said before, more people are beginning to wake up. But this misinformation should never have gotten this strong in the first place.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 17 Feb  2020, 05:31
It got pretty ugly after each of Nolan's films, tbh. He took life through passive as well as direct means in each film and that was greeted with some considerable controversy.

You know very well there was hardly any controversy. Aside from some commenters complaining about it on a small internet forum, the vast majority of people swept the Nolan kills under the rug. While still having to nerve to complain about the other versions for killing, directly or otherwise.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 20 Feb  2020, 02:56

Quote from: Sktchwlkr on Thu, 20 Feb  2020, 02:13
I completely agree Travesty. This is exactly my thoughts to. I think if the fanbase had more of this thinking, there may be less tension and scrutinizing of Batman's actions.

I'm inclined to the belief that a diversity of viewpoints about the character is what makes everything interesting.

Only if those viewpoints are informed. Unfortunately, a lot of people on the internet aren't as knowledgeable about the character as they think they are. The same thing goes for Superman.

I've been reading JSA: The Tenth Circle, it's about the Justice League investigating an ancient vampire cult that emerged thousands of years after they were beaten by the Amazons and found another example of Batman killing. This time he stabs a vampire monster to death.

(https://i.imgur.com/izd6WeW.png)

Following the last post of that example in JSA: The Tenth Circle, that very same story shows Batman killing another vampire during the Justice League and Doom Patrol's fight against the convergence of vampires, who have taken innocent people and other metahuman heroes as one of their own. As outlined in this example, Batman is clearly instructing everyone to not hold back against anything that doesn't resemble human.

(https://i.imgur.com/tLJqO3O.png)

It should be noted that Superman vanquishes the leader Lord Crucifier with a crucifix, who had enslaved the Man of Steel for the vast majority of the story.

(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d346caa13c92fcd43fdb7c148a91a552-lq)