Let's talk about the ending...
Did you think this was a good end to Bruce Wayne's journey as Batman?
I personally had issues with it. I was hoping for something unique and poetic.
Why did Bruce Wayne let people believe that he was dead and stop being Batman? I realize that he wanted to inspire people, but he didn't have to fake his death to do that. People could've seen the bomb explode and believe Batman died, but Bruce could've washed ashore, reunited with Fox/Gordon/Catwoman, and remained in Gotham to help clean up the city as Bruce Wayne.
Also, I'm curious how he was able to fake his death at all since he was shown in The Bat seconds before the explosion. Was he actually in an escape pod? Is there an escape pod on that thing? How was he able to escape far enough to avoid the nuclear blast?
Since everyone saw Batman "die" and Bruce Wayne isn't around anymore, shouldn't people know by now that Bruce is Batman, ala The Dark Knight Returns? It would've been nice to see the people of Gotham discover that the truth and that the vapid rich playboy was actually their hero all along (and restored the honor of the Wayne family name that Bruce had to tarnish in order to keep his secret identity at the end of Batman Begins).
I'm also uneasy about him ending up with Selina Kyle at the end. I found their relationship rushed. She was a criminal, she stole his mother's pearls (which have a huge personal connection to him), and she gave him up to Bane. Sure, she redeemed herself by helping him out at the end, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Bruce/Batman would consider being with her. It's odd that in this trilogy, Batman has been in love with a woman who's actively fighting crime in the D.A.'s office, but ends up with a criminal who betrayed him.
The restaurant scene was predictable, in my opinion, due to how much they telegraphed it in the beginning. Even if you didn't expect a follow-up to Alfred's speech, I thought it was pretty obvious what was going to happen when we saw Alfred sitting at the restaurant again.
And since Bruce was revealed to be alive at the end and left the map for Blake, it felt to me as if Bruce quit being Batman so he could hook up with Selina in another country and left the responsibility of being Batman to Blake- a man who hasn't had nearly the amount of training that Bruce needed to survive as Batman. Wasn't the point of the Batman copycats in The Dark Knight that not anyone could be Batman? I understand that Blake is a detective, but other than that, I don't think he was much more skilled or more passionate about fighting crime than the Bat-copycats were in the previous movie. Is the main difference here that he's got Bruce's blessing?
I think the ending would've been more poetic and beautiful if we saw how Batman's sacrifice changed and inspired people in different ways, tying better into Bruce's talk in the first two films that he wants to become a symbol. He wouldn't just inspire Blake, but also Selina, Gordon, Lucius, Alfred, and the surviving citizens of Gotham.
It was essentially the same ending Alan Moore gave to Superman in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
I didn't have a problem with it personally. I think Bruce knew Blake was different from the Batman imitators in TDK because he was motivated by an innate desire to help others and had already demonstrated himself to be an intelligent, capable crime fighter; not some inept fanboy out to imitate his idol. He figured out Bruce was Batman, but didn't try to take advantage of that knowledge, thereby proving himself to be of high moral character. He connected with Bruce on an emotional/psychological level. And just as Blake recognised his own vulnerabilities in Bruce, I think Bruce in turn saw his own strength and courage in Blake. By leaving him the coordinates of the Batcave, Bruce wasn't necessarily burdening him with the responsibility of becoming Batman. Rather he was offering Blake the option of pursuing that path in the event Batman was ever needed again, furnishing him with the resources he would need should those circumstances arise.
I also think that while Bruce Wayne may have survived, Batman was very much sacrificed at the end of the movie. To all intents and purposes the Dark Knight was dead. And in death he become a symbol (remember the unveiling of the statue) - embodying the same healing virtues that Dent had falsely personified, but with a degree of truth and permanence that the Dent-myth had lacked. So I thought it was a good ending. But I get why you don't like it.
The only real problem for me is explaining how Bruce escaped the blast radius of the explosion. Ok, he'd fixed the autopilot. But we saw him in the cockpit just seconds before it detonated. The only explanation I can think of is that he had an old 1950s-style fridge onboard and managed to climb inside before the explosion went off. He could then have opened the fridge door and used it as a raft to row back to shore.
Of course some people are offering a different explanation – that Bruce did die in the explosion and that Alfred was merely fantasising/dreaming/hallucinating at the end.
About "The Bat" - how did they recover it if it was nuked?
The only thing I can think of is that The Bat dropped the bomb off over water and got far enough away to be safely recovered.
But then, why would everyone believe that Batman was dead in that case?
Lucious and Bruce have at least 2 conversations about auto pilot on the bat. At no point in the film COULD the existence or lack thereof of autopilot on the bat have any relevance other than the ending.
I don't see the need to fake his death either. Think about what happens between films
-between Batman beings and the dark knight (roughly a year) Batman is showing the true colours of the mob, making them up the stakes, giving gotham hope and somewhat cleaning up the city. Seems the events of the dark knight including the terror of the joker showing what the extreme of their events would cause. The joker and two face take out most of the thugs and while Maroni may or may not survive, even he realizes it's too much and they take things too far
-between the dark knight and the dark knight rises, batman does not appear but it seems gotham basically cleans itself up after all the chaos and transforms into a peaceful place. So at the beginning of the film it's clearly proven batman is no longer needed. Bane shows up but as far as we can tell, it's because of Bruce Wayne and the league of shadows. So from what we can assume, after he is taken out things should go back to normal
I found this unbelievably selfish of Bruce to do. After all Alfred has done for him and his PARENTS and after Alfred clearly indicates he is worried about Bruce and has no interest burying another Wayne family members, he puts Alfred through the terrible emotion of grieving his death.
Now as i mentioned above, gotham cleaned itself up without Batman between the 2nd and 3rd films but it's possible/likely that the bad guys knew that while he wasn't showing up, Batman was still alive and still out there. If anything maybe they were more scared of him having believed he killed Harvey Dent and took down the Joker. There was probably the belief that he was still out there. But now he's gone completely.
hasn't it been revealed to the public that Bruce Wayne is batman? So there's no chance of a comeback here. Had he say faked 'batmans' death but came to shore and returned as Bruce Wayne, he wouldn't have put Alfred, Fox, Gordon, etc through the grieving process and had them keep a lid on his identity. He could live his life but still keep the small window open of returning as Batman if needed.
QuoteAbout "The Bat" - how did they recover it if it was nuked?
Great point. Unless The Bat at Wayne Enterprises at the end was another version, but I don't think we were ever presented with a second Bat and just because autopilot was on one Bat doesn't mean it'd be on the other.
QuoteI think Bruce knew Blake was different from the Batman imitators in TDK because he was motivated by an innate desire to help others and had already demonstrated himself to be an intelligent, capable crime fighter; not some inept fanboy out to imitate his idol. He figured out Bruce was Batman, but didn't try to take advantage of that knowledge, thereby proving himself to be of high moral character. He connected with Bruce on an emotional/psychological level. And just as Blake recognised his own vulnerabilities in Bruce, I think Bruce in turn saw his own strength and courage in Blake.
This is true and the only part of the ending that I like is Blake's venture into the Batcave.
I'd say he's the most worthy successor out of the characters in the films, but I think my uneasiness with Blake inheriting it and comparing him against the copycats is simply because Batman hadn't trained him like he did with Dick Grayson in the comics, where it's easier to swallow that Grayson would be able to replace him after years in the field and getting to know Bruce's methods. Plus, Blake's fighting skills weren't exactly on par with Bruce's in the opening of Batman Begins.
It also forces me to look at TDK in a different way, since I always felt that the Batman copycats and Harvey Dent's downfall showed that Bruce Wayne was the only one incorruptible and capable enough of saving Gotham and he'd have to continue being Batman for the long term for the sake of the city. So the fact that TDKR has Batman quitting (twice- in fact my nickname for this film is
Batman Quits Twice) and passing the mantle onto this new cop character is something I'm still digesting.
QuoteBy leaving him the coordinates of the Batcave, Bruce wasn't necessarily burdening him with the responsibility of becoming Batman. Rather he was offering Blake the option of pursuing that path in the event Batman was ever needed again, furnishing him with the resources he would need should those circumstances arise.
While I see what you mean, I still don't understand why Bruce had to give up being Batman or fake his death in the first place for him to grant Blake this offer.
Batman didn't have to "die" like Harvey Dent did in order to be an inspirational symbol. He could've remained active, as evident by how his flaming Bat signal inspired Foley to march against Bane and his actions inspired Blake to keep fighting.
With Superman in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? Superman stripped his own powers away because he took a life.
In The Dark Knight Returns, Bruce retired after Jason Todd died and probably gave it up because he felt responsible for the boy's death.
Then, after he returns and fights Superman, he faked his death so that he could go underground and have a more covert way of fighting crime with the cops and the government off his back.
In Batman Beyond, he hung up the cowl because he came close to shooting a criminal and destroying his principles.
In Knightfall, he gave the cowl to Jean-Paul because he was physically incapable of doing it anymore.
What caused Bruce to hang up the Batman cowl in Dark Knight Rises? And why did he let people think he was dead? I haven't been able to find a discernible reason.
The fact that he left the map to the cave behind for Blake while he was chilling out with Selina in Europe didn't sit right with me because it just felt like Bruce quit Batman to have a normal life, with no reason to do so. As riddler said, it comes across as being selfish, rather than heroic.
QuoteThe only explanation I can think of is that he had an old 1950s-style fridge onboard and managed to climb inside before the explosion went off. He could then have opened the fridge door and used it as a raft to row back to shore.
GENIUS!
I think he quit because he knew Alfred was right. He would never find peace if he stayed in Gotham.
Quote from: Paul (ral) on Tue, 24 Jul 2012, 08:20
I think he quit because he knew Alfred was right. He would never find peace if he stayed in Gotham.
Didn't he knowingly, and willfully, give up on that selfish notion with a certain pledge he made a long time ago?
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 24 Jul 2012, 14:18
Quote from: Paul (ral) on Tue, 24 Jul 2012, 08:20
I think he quit because he knew Alfred was right. He would never find peace if he stayed in Gotham.
Didn't he knowingly, and willfully, give up on that selfish notion with a certain pledge he made a long time ago?
Not in the Nolan-verse. He was looking for a way out even in TDK.
I think he was just fed up playing Bruce Wayne. Bruce and Batman were complimentary performances. Without one, the other became pointless. The MacGuffin Selina pursued throughout the film was the chance for a clean slate and a fresh start. I think this must have been what Bruce wanted too.
It was inconsiderate of him to let Alfred think he'd died. But maybe he was mad at the old butler for walking out on him or for burning Rachel's letter. Either way, he made up for it in the end by tracking down the cafe Alfred frequented and acknowledging the dream he'd confided in him about earlier in the film. Bruce made that dream a reality, giving Alfred what he wanted most and finally freeing them both from the shadow that had hung over the Wayne family since Thomas and Martha were murdered. He stopped being Bruce Wayne and became a new man. And he finally had a chance for a happy normal life.
Did he really need to fake his own death to get that fresh start? I'm not sure. I need to see the film again. But based on a first viewing, I'm inclined to think it was justified.
Though I doubt the Bruce in the comics would have done the same thing.
Quote from: Paul (ral) on Tue, 24 Jul 2012, 14:21
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue, 24 Jul 2012, 14:18
Quote from: Paul (ral) on Tue, 24 Jul 2012, 08:20
I think he quit because he knew Alfred was right. He would never find peace if he stayed in Gotham.
Didn't he knowingly, and willfully, give up on that selfish notion with a certain pledge he made a long time ago?
Not in the Nolan-verse. He was looking for a way out even in TDK.
Yeah, you're right. It always seemed to be directed toward an 'end game.' Still...
QuoteI think he was just fed up playing Bruce Wayne. Bruce and Batman were complimentary performances. Without one, the other became pointless. The MacGuffin Selina pursued throughout the film was the chance for a clean slate and a fresh start. I think this must have been what Bruce wanted too.
It was inconsiderate of him to let Alfred think he'd died. But maybe he was mad at the old butler for walking out on him or for burning Rachel's letter. Either way, he made up for it in the end by tracking down the cafe Alfred frequented and acknowledging the dream he'd confided in him about earlier in the film. Bruce made that dream a reality, giving Alfred what he wanted most and finally freeing them both from the shadow that had hung over the Wayne family since Thomas and Martha were murdered. He stopped being Bruce Wayne and became a new man. And he finally had a chance for a happy normal life.
Did he really need to fake his own death to get that fresh start? I'm not sure. I need to see the film again. But based on a first viewing, I'm inclined to think it was justified.
Though I doubt the Bruce in the comics would have done the same thing.
If the movie was about Bruce letting go of his pain or getting rid of his Bruce Wayne persona, then I wish the story focused and indicated that. But other than the beginning scenes with Alfred and Catwoman's offer to escape, I saw very little in the screenplay that indicated a desire to let go of anything, a need for a fresh start, or a frustration with his double life for the faked death twist to feel justified to me.
I think pain and rebirth were certainly themes in the film. But perhaps they weren't featured as prominently as they should have been.
We see how unfulfilled Bruce Wayne is at the beginning of the movie. And from there things just get worse – he goes broke, Alfred leaves him, his reputation is destroyed, he loses control of his business, his armoury is raided, and his secret identity is compromised by Bane and every other lowlife that was present when he had his back broken. There really wasn't much of a life left for him to reclaim. And the prison seems to have been Nolan's version of a Lazarus Pit; a place where broken souls are consigned to suffer until they're able to re-emerge, stronger than they were before. Pain and rebirth.
If I had to highlight one central flaw in the film it would be that it tries to do too much, and ultimately comes across as overblown. There are too many characters, too many subplots, too many plot twists. And there are too many themes. And when the thematic framework underscoring a movie becomes too bloated and muddled, it makes the overall composition very difficult to understand. We can't tell which themes relate to which characters, which are important and which subsidiary.
So when I say pain and rebirth are important themes, that could well just be me misinterpreting the film. Again, I'd like to reserve judgement until I've seen it again. What I will say is that I found character motivation in general to be a very murky area in this movie. We've already talked about the ambiguity surrounding Bane and Talia's motivations, and I thought Selina's were a little vague as well. But a part of me likes that. I always appreciated the ambiguity in Burton's films and the fact they invited interpretation instead of imposing it. Nolan's first two Batman films were so precise in what they meant to say that they left little room for ambiguity. I like the fact that TDKR allows the viewer a little more scope for subjective interpretation.
Realized I never responded to this, haha, so here I am now:
I think you're right in saying that pain and rebirth were themes in the film. My problem is that those themes don't organically lead to the ending to me. In the film, he heals, gets out of the pit, and comes back to Gotham and defeats Bane and the League of Shadows. Alright, he overcomes his pain and is born again, rejuvenated and ready to fight Bane.
So why does he have to fake both Batman's death and Bruce Wayne's death, instead of trying to reclaim his life? I saw no desire on his part to stop being Batman after defeating Bane and Talia. Nor did I see any desire to give up his life as Bruce Wayne. So why did he have to stop being both?
After taking care of the nuke, Bruce Wayne could've gotten his money and his reputation back by proving Bane targeted him, with Miranda Tate on the inside. After all, it seems awfully coincidental for Bane to attack the Stock Exchange one day and Bruce Wayne to lose everything from said Stock Exchange the next day. Commissioner Gordon, now knowing his secret identity, could've helped out. After this, he could've taken back control of his business, with Lucius Fox's help and gotten his armory back. His secret identity also wouldn't have been too compromised. The League of Shadows knew his identity back in Batman Begins and that didn't lead to much trouble for him after he defeated them, either.
I realize this is all fan conjecture, but I'm just wondering, in a film about overcoming pain and adversity, wouldn't it have made more sense for Bruce to stay in Gotham and bounce back from Bane's attack by getting his life back together and using his resources to help clean up the city, instead of abandoning his life in Gotham completely and making everyone think he was dead?
Saw the movie last night for the first time and loved it. The only thing I still am trying to digest is the ending, more precisely Bruce giving up his Batman persona and passing the mantle on to Blake. I always have thought and liked the fact that the Batman's war against crime was an on-going one and having him quit being Batman doesn't sit particularly well with me. You may say I'm naive but that's the way I see it.
I am trying to find ways for it to make sense to me, like Blake will become Robin and Bruce will one day come back and fight crime alongside Blake but the fact that a statue of the Dark Knight was made and unveiled leaves little hope for that.
P.S.: I'm sorry I haven't been around in a long time but a lot of personal health-related issues have prevented me from being around here more than I would have loved.
Quote from: Batman88 on Fri, 31 Aug 2012, 14:24
Saw the movie last night for the first time and loved it. The only thing I still am trying to digest is the ending, more precisely Bruce giving up his Batman persona and passing the mantle on to Blake. I always have thought and liked the fact that the Batman's war against crime was an on-going one and having him quit being Batman doesn't sit particularly well with me. You may say I'm naive but that's the way I see it.
I am trying to find ways for it to make sense to me, like Blake will become Robin and Bruce will one day come back and fight crime alongside Blake but the fact that a statue of the Dark Knight was made and unveiled leaves little hope for that.
P.S.: I'm sorry I haven't been around in a long time but a lot of personal health-related issues have prevented me from being around here more than I would have loved.
Even if gordon didn't spill the beans, there is no possible way Bruce wayne could return to gotham and take over as batman without Gotham knowing his identity;
Wayne returns to gotham (clearly announcing his presence during begins and Batman shows up)
Batman gets accused of murder and Wayne becomes a hermit and urban legend.
Wayne comes out of hiding and Batman returns
Wayne and Batman both die
the last 10% of the population who couldn't piece together the connection surely would if both rise from the grave.
QuoteSaw the movie last night for the first time and loved it.
Finally! Somebody else around here liked it apart from me.
Good to have you back, Batman88. I hope you're feeling better now.
^Well, while I have my problems with TDRK, I will say that I did like it. The last third of the film is super exhilarating, and I didn't even mind Robin Blake inheriting Batman's toys. Honestly, my main problems with the film could've been fixed with dialoge. Have a line about how Batman only quit being Batman after the streets where actually safe (like 3-6 years after TDK), and then add a line about how Bruce had some secret bank account they didn't get to (explaining how in the hell Bruce got back from Bane's prison), and the film improves substantially for me.
While I still love the Nolan films, and I don't think the man has ever made a bad film, I do feel like TDKR is the first time he's made a somewhat mediocre film, Batman or otherwise. I'll write a proper review to post in the other tread latter.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 31 Aug 2012, 17:34Finally! Somebody else around here liked it apart from me.
Hey now, I liked it too. Whatever problems I have with the movie, sending Bruce off into the sunset cuts through a lot of BS with me. I've never envisioned Bruce dying on the job. I always thought he'd eventually reach a point where he decides to call it a day. TDKRises gives him different reasons than I would for doing so but it achieves that purpose and that counts for a lot in my book.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 01:15
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 31 Aug 2012, 17:34Finally! Somebody else around here liked it apart from me.
Hey now, I liked it too. Whatever problems I have with the movie, sending Bruce off into the sunset cuts through a lot of BS with me. I've never envisioned Bruce dying on the job. I always thought he'd eventually reach a point where he decides to call it a day. TDKRises gives him different reasons than I would for doing so but it achieves that purpose and that counts for a lot in my book.
I like that, too. The fact that Bruce didn't die on the job but went off into the sunset. I do have issues with him quitting being the Batman, though. His is an on-going battle with crime and a great part of the appeal of the character is that he can't afford to lead a normal life because of that.
By the way, thanks for the concern, Silver Nemesis. I am fine, it's my brother that's very sick.
Quote from: Batman88 on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 08:05I like that, too. The fact that Bruce didn't die on the job but went off into the sunset. I do have issues with him quitting being the Batman, though. His is an on-going battle with crime and a great part of the appeal of the character is that he can't afford to lead a normal life because of that.
See, I think he would. I think he'd eventually experience what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity. He'd realize his parents would've wanted a better life for him, to be happy and fulfilled and he'd take stock of things and realize he's done more for Gotham City than anybody... and that it's time for the next generation to move in and take over. Somewhere in his mid/late 40's... yeah, I think he'd retire from Batman, retire from all public life, marry some chick (Selina's as good as anybody and better than most) and leave Gotham City forever as a happy and content man. Spider-Man would die on the job, Superman would outlive everybody but Batman... eventually he'd move on.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 12:30
Quote from: Batman88 on Sat, 1 Sep 2012, 08:05I like that, too. The fact that Bruce didn't die on the job but went off into the sunset. I do have issues with him quitting being the Batman, though. His is an on-going battle with crime and a great part of the appeal of the character is that he can't afford to lead a normal life because of that.
See, I think he would. I think he'd eventually experience what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity. He'd realize his parents would've wanted a better life for him, to be happy and fulfilled and he'd take stock of things and realize he's done more for Gotham City than anybody... and that it's time for the next generation to move in and take over. Somewhere in his mid/late 40's... yeah, I think he'd retire from Batman, retire from all public life, marry some chick (Selina's as good as anybody and better than most) and leave Gotham City forever as a happy and content man. Spider-Man would die on the job, Superman would outlive everybody but Batman... eventually he'd move on.
I see where you're coming from, buddy and I respect that. I don't think he ever would, though. I think the guy is too consumed by revenge that he only has brief "moments of clarity", as you call them. He has them, thinks to quit but then revenge and sense of guilt gain the upper hand again and he keeps being the Batman and fighting crime.
I would have preferred the film to have ended with Bruce realizing that his war against crime is on-going and have him come back to Gotham after a few years. To have the film hint at him returning after a few years. Anyway, that's just me, guys. ;)
Think I would've preferred this ending:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwv9yhEGyiw
According to comic writer Peter David:
QuoteFun fact: Nolan originally wanted to kill off Batman. DC refused to sign off on it. I kind of wish they hadn't blocked that ending, because if you thought Bane snapping Batman's spine was painful, that's nothing compared to the back breaking contortions they had to go through to keep Bruce alive.He keeps the fact that he's fixed the autopilot secret from Lucius Fox. Why? On the off chance he may have to fake his own death?
http://www.peterdavid.net/2012/07/29/the-dark-knight-rises-like-a-souffle-but-then-a-loud-bang-makes-it-fall-my-spoiler-filled-comments/
So there was solid basis on the whole "Batman will/won't/should/shouldn't etc die" arguments/battles before the film was released. I don't know if it's common knowledge, but as I didn't follow the big news sites, I personally didn't know.
(OT, Great and balanced review, and it's nice to see someone like David defend Last Action Hero - really like that film)
Good review. Nice to know that the rumors about Nolan killing Batman were credible.
For me, I think I've pinpointed the moment when TDKRises (there's only one "TDKR" and Nolan had nothing to do with it) goes off the rails for me: The return of Batman. Hear me out. Before Batman comes back, I seriously like the movie. I like where Bruce is as a character, I like his interplay with Selina, I like the gathering storm on the horizon, Bane's conspiracies, all of it. The minute Batman comes back, the movie becomes a mess. But up to that point, all you really have to do is convince yourself Batman could be whipped into retirement if his girlfriend dies. If you can buy that, nothing in the movie's first 40'ish minutes is off the table. But once Batman comes back, the swiss cheese plot just gets out of control.
It's not hard for me to imagine the movie with Batman/Bruce staying dead at the end. I suspect, when DC/WB refused to allow it, the Nolans probably didn't want to alter the main story too much, so they added Lucius Fox talking to the techs about the autopilot and the bookending Alfred/restaurant scenes. The film was always going to end with Blake/JGL "rising" in the Batcave.
I actually saw the film a few weeks ago on DVD, didn't get a chance to see it in the cinemas. I must say I thoroughly enjoyed it, wonderful direction and acting and the story was well spun. The ending was very strong, I must say I got a bit emotional with Bruce moving away from his "pain", as alluded in the film. Personally I always believe that Bruce should die in his old age, full of life with/or without a younger Batman to carry on the fight. Not only in the movies but in the comics as well. In fact it would be kinda cool if the entire Gotham knew, on his passing, that he was The Bat.
It would make for a sentimental and glorious send -off.
Just my two cents.
The worst thing about this ending is that Blake taking over the mantle as Batman or whoever means that there will never be peace in Gotham, and Bruce won't be there to guide Blake when the going gets tough.
Instead of faking his death and leaving the city for good, Bruce could've stayed behind and become a mentor to teach and assist Blake, like he does with Terry McGinnis in Batman Beyond. Because if you stop and think about it for a second, Blake is deprived of having the skills, training and guidance that he desperately needs to survive this never ending war on crime.
It's pathetic.
Batman Quits, or the Dark Knight Retires work better as the title.
You can also argue that as long as there is a need for Batman, Gotham will never be a safe place to live and the recovery from Bane and Talia's siege is only temporary. But hey, at least Bruce gets a "happy" ending, right? Because running away from his troubled home he swore to protect is totally fitting for his character. ::)
That's an ending for "cheaters" . One can't quit being Batman just like that. Beyond did it 9999 x times better.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 20 Dec 2015, 02:39You can also argue that as long as there is a need for Batman, Gotham will never be a safe place to live and the recovery from Bane and Talia's siege is only temporary. But hey, at least Bruce gets a "happy" ending, right? Because running away from his troubled home he swore to protect is totally fitting for his character. ::)
And...
Quote from: Edd Grayson on Sun, 20 Dec 2015, 02:56That's an ending for "cheaters" . One can't quit being Batman just like that. Beyond did it 9999 x times better.
It's not that you guys are wrong. But how I've always viewed it is "Batman" is that stretch of time when Bruce Wayne suffered a crippling emotional trauma after the death of his parents. He dedicated his life to vengeance.
Then he woke up one day and realized (A) his parents probably wouldn't be very proud of the life he's chosen and (B) they definitely would've wanted something better for him than he's chosen.
He'd destroy all or most of his equipment, seal off the Batcave, move away from Gotham, maybe get married and live out the rest of his life (however long it lasts) as happier, more well-adjusted man.
TDKRises comes the closest to giving us that. And it adds up. At the beginning of TDK, Bruce is looking for the right moment to claim victory and retire. At the end of TDK, he's basically
forced out. At the beginning of TDKRises, he's looking for an excuse to come back (and get killed in the line of duty). At the end of TDKRises, he lets it go. He's not coerced; he makes a conscious decision.
He's destroyed the League of Shadows, appointed a successor (however inept he may or may not be) if one's ever needed and has decided the best ending for himself is something away from Gotham. "Batman" was a curse on Bruce in some ways. But the real freedom Bruce found was effectively killing "Bruce" as an identity and living out his life in obscurity.
Is that the perfect ending? Perhaps not... but it's the closest I'm ever likely to see in live action (or anywhere else). So I roll with it.
The movie was the worst for me though. next time give me a Bane that I can hear what he's saying, and that's, you know, Bane, not Ra's surrogate son ;)
Sorry mate, but I reckon the way they went about giving Bruce an ending is handled in the worst bloody possible way they could think of, just like how badly they screwed up the ending of the second film.
I don't care too much if Bruce wants to stop being Batman, but I'd much rather he lived in the city and help rebuild it instead of faking his death and deceive his friends. I have absolutely no sympathy for Bruce at all. Say whatever you want about Kingdom Come, but I quite like how once the world finds peace, Bruce opens a hospital at Wayne Manor and helps treat the injured and oversees everything like a doctor, following his father's footsteps. He could've easily left Gotham, but he didn't.
If they want to give Bruce a definite ending, fine, but don't go and hint that someone else will become Batman. Because once again, all that shows is Gotham will never find peace, and it makes all the talk about "the day that Gotham will no longer need Batman" in TDK even more hollow. Especially if Blake will likely get killed in the first night out since he has not even half the experience that Bruce had.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 20 Dec 2015, 07:14Sorry mate, but I reckon the way they went about giving Bruce an ending is handled in the worst bloody possible way they could think of, just like how badly they screwed up the ending of the second film.
I don't care too much if Bruce wants to stop being Batman, but I'd much rather he lived in the city and help rebuild it instead of faking his death and deceive his friends. I have absolutely no sympathy for Bruce at all. Say whatever you want about Kingdom Come, but I quite like how once the world finds peace, Bruce opens a hospital at Wayne Manor and helps treat the injured and oversees everything like a doctor, following his father's footsteps. He could've easily left Gotham, but he didn't.
If they want to give Bruce a definite ending, fine, but don't go and hint that someone else will become Batman. Because once again, all that shows is Gotham will never find peace, and it makes all the talk about "the day that Gotham will no longer need Batman" in TDK even more hollow. Especially if Blake will likely get killed in the first night out since he has not even half the experience that Bruce had.
That idea that Gotham will no longer need Batman was proven to be something that could never happen in TDK. It's not realistic that Gotham would find definitive peace. That was the point of the ending of TDK and TDKR. No one ever said that Blake would go run out unprepared without the appropriate training. What sympathy is felt by some audience members isn't the film's responsibility. Bruce fought crime and corruption. He got hurt, nearly killed, the woman he loved was murdered because he fought it and he allowed himself to be hunted for crimes he didn't commit to maintain what he thought was peace in the city. He wasn't evil, psychopathic or directly cruel. That's not unsympathetic.
God bless you! God bless everyone!
Do any of of you think Blake will have been Gotham's silent guardian after Bruce retired ? I don't think I know what to say of that... I liked him, but...
I just find it funny that after Bane terrorized Gotham for months on end, and a lot of Gotham is in ruble, that Bruce is thinking about himself more than helping rebuild Gotham after a HUGE terrorist attack. Help rebuild Gotham? Nahhhh, he's gotta get to that cafe with Selina!
And why did Bruce Wayne have to fake his death, again? What's the point?
Yeah. Batman could've easily been presumed dead, but Bruce didn't need to fake anything. So much for letting the truth finally have its day - which the film tells us is a core theme via Alfred's speech. And Bruce sitting in full view flies so much in the face of trying to play dead. I mean, just how long is that going to last?
"The world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to disappear."
It felt like he was running away from the responsibility and basically retiring Batman.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 18:54Yeah. Batman could've easily been presumed dead, but Bruce didn't need to fake anything. So much for letting the truth finally have its day - which the film tells us is a core theme via Alfred's speech. And Bruce sitting in full view flies so much in the face of trying to play dead. I mean, just how long is that going to last?
"The world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to disappear."
It's only small if someone has resources to find him and find out who he really is. No one's going to automatically assume he's the same person. The truth did have its day. All of his friends know he's alive. And the people will know that Batman is still out there too. Personally I always found that line kinda nonsense anyway. It was very easy for Bruce Wayne to disappear there, even after he was arrested. Bruce Wayne being found out to be alive wouldn't really hurt him anyway.
Quote from: Max Shreck on Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 20:33It felt like he was running away from the responsibility and basically retiring Batman.
He was letting go of his self-destructive tendencies and giving his parents and father figure what they wanted.
God bless you both! God bless everyone!
I don't think it takes resources to identify someone's identity. It's instant because you never forget a face. That's why celebrities are constantly hound by members of the public on a daily basis. And even if they're unsure of their identity, they'll say "hey...do people say you look a lot like (insert name here)?"
Seriously though, if Bruce wants a relaxed, 'leave me alone' lifestyle in retirement, faking your death isn't the way to go. Why live with that added stress? Moving around from country to country, if he wants to, with fake passports and the inevitable comparisons to Wayne, and obviously being discovered, is unnecessary in my eyes.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 29 Dec 2015, 06:30
I don't think it takes resources to identify someone's identity. It's instant because you never forget a face. That's why celebrities are constantly hound by members of the public on a daily basis. And even if they're unsure of their identity, they'll say "hey...do people say you look a lot like (insert name here)?"
Seriously though, if Bruce wants a relaxed, 'leave me alone' lifestyle in retirement, faking your death isn't the way to go. Why live with that added stress? Moving around from country to country, if he wants to, with fake passports and the inevitable comparisons to Wayne, and obviously being discovered, is unnecessary in my eyes.
Didn't Ra's al Ghul once mention in BB that the world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to disappear? And yet, here he is with Selina Kyle in this European cafe, seemingly unnoticed by anyone else except for Alfred.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 30 Dec 2015, 06:16Didn't Ra's al Ghul once mention in BB that the world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to disappear? And yet, here he is with Selina Kyle in this European cafe, seemingly unnoticed by anyone else except for Alfred.
I could No Prize that by saying that Bruce was conspicuously absent from Gotham City in Batman Begins to go travel the world. That was (or would've been) a Missing Persons case.
But in TDKRises (there's only one "TDKR", people, and Chris Nolan had nothing to do with it) Gotham City was attacked by maniacs and basically occupied by a hostile foreign force where a lot of citizens, particularly the top 1%, were murdered. That along with Bruce being declared dead by Alfred after Batman saved the day and having a funeral and even a grave site people can visit would be enough to take attention away from him.
It's the Osama bin Laden effect. If you looked out your window and saw Osama bin Laden walking down your street, you probably wouldn't say that it's Osama bin Laden. You'd think to yourself that he looks like Osama bin Laden and then go back to your business. Yes, this analogy worked better when Osama bin Laden was actually alive but you get the idea.
Same thing with Bruce. If he was noticed overseas, most people wouldn't think "Holy schnikies, that's Bruce Wayne!" If they noticed him at all, they'd think nothing more than "Holy schnikies, that dude looks just like Bruce Wayne, may he rest in peace!"
Ra's al Ghul wasn't making a prophecy or something when he said the world is too small for someone of Bruce's stature to just vanish. Ra's was just saying he's good at this sort of thing. Besides Bruce was basically "hiding" in Ra's's back yard. It's not like Ra's had to employ thousands of agents and travel across the entire continent to "find" Bruce or anything.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 30 Dec 2015, 09:33But in TDKRises (there's only one "TDKR", people, and Chris Nolan had nothing to do with it) Gotham City was attacked by maniacs and basically occupied by a hostile foreign force where a lot of citizens, particularly the top 1%, were murdered. That along with Bruce being declared dead by Alfred after Batman saved the day and having a funeral and even a grave site people can visit would be enough to take attention away from him.
It's the Osama bin Laden effect. If you looked out your window and saw Osama bin Laden walking down your street, you probably wouldn't say that it's Osama bin Laden. You'd think to yourself that he looks like Osama bin Laden and then go back to your business. Yes, this analogy worked better when Osama bin Laden was actually alive but you get the idea.
Same thing with Bruce. If he was noticed overseas, most people wouldn't think "Holy schnikies, that's Bruce Wayne!" If they noticed him at all, they'd think nothing more than "Holy schnikies, that dude looks just like Bruce Wayne, may he rest in peace!"
Ra's al Ghul wasn't making a prophecy or something when he said the world is too small for someone of Bruce's stature to just vanish. Ra's was just saying he's good at this sort of thing. Besides Bruce was basically "hiding" in Ra's's back yard. It's not like Ra's had to employ thousands of agents and travel across the entire continent to "find" Bruce or anything.
That's basically what I was saying. Thank you.
God bless you all! God bless everyone!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxfW8DA1slU
;D