You know the drill! The Flash film spoilers ONLY. In this thread please.
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I'll post this in white just because the film isn't out yet and the film currently screening isn't the final version. Anyway spoilers: one of Batman's deaths (yes plural) is depicted in the newest 'final' trailer. Batman purposefully crashes the batplane into Zod's ship, causing no damage at all. :( :( :(
I feel differently about that now. None of it matters. We're dealing with a Frankenstein amalgamation of a world where a Burton themed Batman lives in a distorted Snyderverse in which Kal El was killed as a baby. Whether we see variant Batman dying over and over again or not, the Frankenstein timeline gets wiped at the end anyway. He or that world wouldn't exist. Barry's actions in the finale render the majority of the movie essentially pointless (but not for Barry's own growth or our entertainment)
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 25 May 2023, 03:03
I feel differently about that now. None of it matters. We're dealing with a Frankenstein amalgamation of a world where a Burton themed Batman lives in a distorted Snyderverse in which Kal El was killed as a baby. Whether we see variant Batman dying over and over again or not, the Frankenstein timeline gets wiped at the end anyway. He or that world wouldn't exist. Barry's actions in the finale render the majority of the movie essentially pointless (but not for Barry's own growth or our entertainment)
Well the specifics of time travel are explained by KeatBruce, and I would say it matters. It has been confirmed that both Kara and Bruce are literally refuges from other times. Keaton IS the Burton Bat because Barry's time manipulation drew in the Burtonverse and made an amalgam universe to heal itself. Zod isn't supposed to happen in Burton world and Barry setting things right actually saves those worlds.
The talk has been Keaton plays a variant in this movie, and that's what I've come to accept. But if it truly was THE Burton Batman who was plucked out of his timeline and placed into a new amalgamation, that would hit hard. It would be better. For him, he would only realize what had happened to his universe once he goes outside, because his home is exactly as it should be. Especially if it's THE Burton Batman I'm clinging on to the idea Barry going back in time at the end allows both Batman and Supergirl's deaths to not be confirmed, and they're pushed back to where they belong.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 26 May 2023, 03:26
The talk has been Keaton plays a variant in this movie, and that's what I've come to accept. But if it truly was THE Burton Batman who was plucked out of his timeline and placed into a new amalgamation, that would hit hard. It would be better. For him, he would only realize what had happened to his universe once he goes outside, because his home is exactly as it should be. Especially if it's THE Burton Batman I'm clinging on to the idea Barry going back in time at the end allows both Batman and Supergirl's deaths to not be confirmed, and they're pushed back to where they belong.
I am hoping for that as well.
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 26 May 2023, 19:06
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 26 May 2023, 03:26
The talk has been Keaton plays a variant in this movie, and that's what I've come to accept. But if it truly was THE Burton Batman who was plucked out of his timeline and placed into a new amalgamation, that would hit hard. It would be better. For him, he would only realize what had happened to his universe once he goes outside, because his home is exactly as it should be. Especially if it's THE Burton Batman I'm clinging on to the idea Barry going back in time at the end allows both Batman and Supergirl's deaths to not be confirmed, and they're pushed back to where they belong.
I am hoping for that as well.
It should.
As said, my perspective for a while had been 'variant Batman' had always existed in this weird world. He was from it and not just a visitor. Meaning when Barry erases it, that Batman and everything inside it ceases to exist because they had nowhere else to go. But being a refugee would change things. I've since read that there's a point made that it's the amalgamation world that's doomed and cannot be saved, which makes it less about Batman or Supergirl specifically being doomed. Batman and Supergirl keep dying because the other Barry keeps going back just before the desert battle starts. Once that Barry is dead, our Barry has freedom to go way back before that. Not that we will see this on film, but I suspect that neither would remember the events of the film though, and Bruce may be in his long hair and beard mode. But nonetheless alive. I'm super curious about the post credit scenes to see if they give a coda of some sort.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 26 May 2023, 22:42
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 26 May 2023, 19:06
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 26 May 2023, 03:26
The talk has been Keaton plays a variant in this movie, and that's what I've come to accept. But if it truly was THE Burton Batman who was plucked out of his timeline and placed into a new amalgamation, that would hit hard. It would be better. For him, he would only realize what had happened to his universe once he goes outside, because his home is exactly as it should be. Especially if it's THE Burton Batman I'm clinging on to the idea Barry going back in time at the end allows both Batman and Supergirl's deaths to not be confirmed, and they're pushed back to where they belong.
I am hoping for that as well.
It should.
As said, my perspective for a while had been 'variant Batman' had always existed in this weird world. He was from it and not just a visitor. Meaning when Barry erases it, that Batman and everything inside it ceases to exist because they had nowhere else to go. But being a refugee would change things. I've since read that there's a point made that it's the amalgamation world that's doomed and cannot be saved, which makes it less about Batman or Supergirl specifically being doomed. Batman and Supergirl keep dying because the other Barry keeps going back just before the desert battle starts. Once that Barry is dead, our Barry has freedom to go way back before that. Not that we will see this on film, but I suspect that neither would remember the events of the film though, and Bruce may be in his long hair and beard mode. But nonetheless alive. I'm super curious about the post credit scenes to see if they give a coda of some sort.
I would be OK with this.
I originally suspected that Batkeats in "The Flash" would be a variant, but the problem is that I don't really believe most of the general audiences who watch this movie will be viewing him as one. They'd more likely view him as the same Batman from B89 and BR. Mainly because most people won't be examining the specifics like a lot of us on this forum, and we live in a post-"Spider-Man: No Way Home" where the audience will be more inclined to see Batkeats as the same guy from the Burton movies. As far as the fates of Batkeats and Supergirl go, I think it might go a long way if, say, when Barry is experiencing his climatic interdimensional scene where other worlds, and the heroes of those worlds, are on full display to him, that we see two separate worlds with images of Batkeats (perhaps using unused/deleted footage) and Supergirl (not back imprisoned, but as a established champion of her earth) represented to him. Indicating that Barry's unintended merging of worlds tampering has indeed been reversed, and the amalgation finally severed. With both the Burtonverse, and Supergirl's worlds fully preserved in the multiverse.
As per ViewerAnon: "I keep hearing WB is actually holding secrets back on THE FLASH, so the version that has screened early at CinemaCon and for fans is missing surprises that will be there upon release (not just post-credits stuff)"
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Supposedly, this theater had a midnight showing for "Batman and Robin" just last weekend.
In regards to "The Flash", that's timely!
Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 7 Jun 2023, 15:13
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Supposedly, this theater had a midnight showing for "Batman and Robin" just last weekend.
In regards to "The Flash", that's timely!
That's Quentin Tarantino's theater. They're known for playing 35mm prints.
I'm frankly kind of disappointed that there haven't been opportunities for screenings of Batman '89 & Returns in anticipation of Keaton's return in The Flash. Warners is notorious for holding moratoriums on their previous movie when a new version comes out. You'd think they'd allow a couple of screenings to help drum up the excitement. A 4K edition of Mask of the Phantasm is coming out just in time for Batman Day. Maybe they'll throw in the two Keaton films if The Flash is a hit.
Quote from: Kamdan on Wed, 7 Jun 2023, 15:52
That's Quentin Tarantino's theater. They're known for playing 35mm prints.
I'm frankly kind of disappointed that there haven't been opportunities for screenings of Batman '89 & Returns in anticipation of Keaton's return in The Flash. Warners is notorious for holding moratoriums on their previous movie when a new version comes out. You'd think they'd allow a couple of screenings to help drum up the excitement. A 4K edition of Mask of the Phantasm is coming out just in time for Batman Day. Maybe they'll throw in the two Keaton films if The Flash is a hit.
The local theater to me has provided numerous opportunities to see "Batman '89" as apart of their 'Flashback Cinema' screenings over the past 7-8 years. However, absolutely zero screenings for Returns/Forever/B&R. "Batman The Movie 1966" was shown a few times in prep for "Batman v Superman" back in 2016, but hasn't been provided since. I had the opportunity to check out "Mask of the Phantasm" as it was apart of a special 'one night only' Fandango screening two or three years ago, but that's about it. I've seen an advertisement on Twitter where at least one theater somewhere is providing a "Batman '89/The Flash" double feature. That would be pretty fun.
Ok, it's the spoilers thread. I'm not writing in white, because....its' the spoilers thread. So yeah, I'm openly talking here.
I don't know how I feel about it? Overall, I liked it enough, but I don't think it's an overall great movie. It's just ok. Now, I was totally happy with the Keaton stuff, which is why I even went to the theater, but all of the Flash stuff was pretty mediocre. I actually think Grant Guston's Flash is way better, and did a better job at handling some of these beats and story lines. I did laugh at some of the jokes, but there were quite a few that fell completely flat, and I hated young Barry. His "dude-isms" were just so over the top annoying, it really took me out. I'm just not a fan of his Barry Allen.
So, I dunno, it was ok. But I was a bit miffed that there was no Cavil cameo. I guess you can kinda claim that was him on the TV with the laser beams, but man, WB really hates that guy for some reason, lol. I was expecting a Nic Cage cameo, and of course, we got it and it was amazing. Way better than I was expecting. The spider was hilarious, but man, he looked good. Other than that, the movie literally played out exactly how I was expecting. I already thought Dark Flash was going to be Barry, and it was obvious the second he started taking shrapnel. So I dunno, if you read Flashpoint and watched the trailers, you pretty much know exactly how the movie will play out.
So again, it was an ok movie. Something I don't need to see again in theaters, but will definitely watch again when it comes to home release. I'll be re-watching the Keaton scenes over and over again. But that's about it.
After a long, long wait, I've finally seen it.
I thought it was ok. Not as good as I'd have liked, but not as bad as I'd feared. It's definitely nowhere near as good as Joker (2019) or The Batman (2022), but I enjoyed it a lot more than the Batman '89 comic.
The Keaton material is generally great. He doesn't get the Jake Skywalker treatment as we'd feared, but is depicted as stronger and faster than ever, assuming a leadership role in the alternate JLA and showing off his skills, ingenuity and intellect to impressive effect. In the old movies he was knocked to the ground by handgun fire, but now he can absorb rifle fire from multiple gunmen at close range without losing his footing. I loved his fight scene against the Russian soldiers (though it was somewhat ruined by the comedy shots of Barry vomiting – hopefully someone will upload a clip of that fight to YouTube with the Barry shots removed), and his performance during the final battle was equally impressive. Batfleck managed to defeat Superman with the aid of kryptonite, but Keaton temporarily subdues Nam-Ek without kryptonite. The last time we saw Keaton's Batman in a one-on-one fight against a comic book villain, he was beating up the Penguin. Now he's facing off against Nam-Ek. That one helluva steep difficulty curve.
I liked seeing Keaton's Batman in a sci-fi context I've not seen him in before. In his earlier adventures he was fighting criminals in Gotham City, but in The Flash we get to see him leading his own mini JLA against a global threat. He's fast enough to stand toe-to-toe against speedsters and Kryptonians, and his new costume and weapons all look great. Keaton himself faultlessly slips back into the role, and I appreciate that they gave him some quieter reflective moments amid the action and comedy.
Keaton is the one aspect of the movie that I'm more or less happy with. My only criticism of his return is that they could have capitalised more on the unique mythos surrounding his Batman. They could have referenced Pfeiffer's Catwoman or Billy Dee Two-Face, or they could have made the alternate universe resemble the aesthetic of the Burtonverse. Instead the only references to the earlier movies take the form of fan service lines of dialogue or visual nods. Remember this object from Batman '89? Remember when Batman said this line in Batman '89? That's about as deep as the connections to the earlier movies get. It could just as easily have been Kilmer's Batman or Clooney's. I'm glad it was Keaton's, and his performance brings depth to the part, but I just think the script could have done more with those connections.
Other than that, I'm happy with Keaton's return. He had about half an hour of screen time in Batman Returns, and I imagine he has a roughly similar amount of screen time in The Flash. So there's going to be plenty for us to talk about and analyse in the future.
Moving on to other aspects of the film.
I've never liked Miller's interpretation of the Flash, and I've been a vocal critic of his since long before the allegations of misconduct emerged. He's bad enough as a comic relief sidekick, but as the main protagonist he's insufferable. He does a good job during the quieter emotional moments, but those scenes are too few to offset the irritation he provokes throughout the rest of the film. Hopefully this is the last we'll be seeing of his Barry.
There weren't many people at the screening I attended, and the few present were my age or older. There were no kids in the audience, which was just as well given the amount of swearing and stabbing scenes. Did they really have to say "sh*t" quite so many times, let alone drop an f-bomb? The movie's tone is juvenile, yet the violence and swearing make it unsuitable for the younger demographics that would best appreciate its humour. It's very tonally uneven, drifting from slapstick silliness to moments of sombre emotion that would've worked better in a less campy film.
Some people in the audience laughed at the jokes, but I didn't personally find them funny. The humour is the formulaic kind displayed in most modern CBMs: someone says or does something inappropriate to undermine an otherwise dramatic moment, pop songs play during action scenes to juxtapose the upbeat melody against the violence, heroes trade banter filled with pop culture references (usually to eighties movies or Star Wars), someone says "WTF", etc. If you find the first two Tom Holland Spider-Man movies funny, you'll probably like this too.
But if you're hoping for something on a par with No Way Home – which was the only film in Holland's trilogy that I liked – you might be disappointed. The Flash is a full-on comedy, which is odd considering it's based on Flashpoint. Flashpoint isn't a comedy, but a dark dystopian tragedy about Barry having to let go of his mother and the life he could have shared with her. That concept is still definitely present in the movie, and the film works best when emphasising Barry's emotional bond with his mother. However those scenes, effective though they are, feel incongruous in what is otherwise a slapstick comedy. I wish they'd played it more serious. A little humour is welcome, but I felt they overdid it here. The best parts of the film are the darker and more serious moments, and I wish there'd been more of them.
The movie is also too long. There are a lot of comedic and expository scenes in the first hour that could easily have been trimmed, and the final battle, as in most CBMs, is overblown. I don't understand why infantry were being deployed against alien air craft, or why the human soldiers kept slowly walking towards the Kryptonians firing rifles that had no effect on them. The Kryptonians also seemed slower and less durable than in Man of Steel. In Justice League, Superman was able to match the Flash's speed, but here the two Barry's were able to literally run circles around the Kryptonians and even incapacitate one of them with a vibratory strike to the chest. And Batman was able to knock out Nam-Ek with a bat-bomb. This struck me as inconsistent with the pre-established durability of the DCEU Kryptonians, though I didn't mind too much as it made Keaton seem more formidable.
I know some critics have compared the CGI in this film to a Playstation 3 game, and they weren't exaggerating. The Flash contains some of the worst special effects I've seen in a modern movie. There must be a story behind that. Maybe the artists didn't have time to finish them properly, or perhaps the reshoots meant they were given too many scenes to animate. Whatever the reason, I'm sure an explanation will emerge in time. I can imagine Corridor Crew doing a video about this movie at some point, and perhaps fixing some of those effects themselves.
I can also imagine this being the sort of film that will inspire fan edits. I'd like to see a more serious cut that trims the running time and reduces Miller's goofy dialogue to a minimum. I like to re-watch most movies in their entirety, but occasionally I'll see a film where one viewing is enough. After that, I prefer to just re-watch the best bits on YouTube. The Flash is one of those movies. I probably will get the DVD when it comes out, but I expect I'll be less inclined to re-watch the entire movie than just my favourite scenes. It's that kind of a film.
I've got many more things to say about The Flash, but I'll stop here for now. The score by Benjamin Wallfisch is good, and I enjoyed the cameos, even if they were poorly animated and only there for cheap fan service (Cage's was the best). If I were evaluating this film objectively, I'd say it's an average 5/10 CBM. However, Keaton's return strikes a personal chord with me, and that elevates it slightly. Fans of the Burton-Schumacher Batman series will enjoy this more than most, but without the Keaton element I don't think it's strong enough to stand on its own. So it's an average/mixed response from me.
Just got done with it and it's pretty much what I expected. The pre time travel stuff felt more like the theatrical cut of justice league but a bit more controlled. Affleck felt off, but he also felt off in the nightmare stuff in ZSJL.
Keaton has not missed a beat and him doing comedy and drama served this movie well. He felt in line with his Burton counterpart. The 89 call backs worked for me. The joker bag shows there must be a trophy room (I mean having a memento from the death of your parents killer is something!)
I think the one thing that does suck is that it appears that the theatrical cut of justice is the cannon tho Flash going back in time has nice call backs to when he did in ZSJL
Young flash was annoying but he was supposed to be and I was glad about that. It was like young flash was theatrical justice league and older flash was Snyder's.
Super girl surprised me and I really liked her, she's almost up there with cavils superman. It is interesting how she had the codex in her and not Clark. However, it still pays service to Snyder's Superman because in the end, the world needed superman.
Now if this is an amalgamation, what's interesting is that 78 superman and 89 are now officially set in the same universe but Tim Burton's Superman also was supposed to have Keatons Bruce Wayne and Schumacher was also supposed to be that same batman.
Clooney was a fun callback and a nice way to end the movie and respect the history of Burtons Batman (it ends with Clooney) but this time Keaton had a proper send off this time.
I was pleasantly surprised to find that Keaton's Batman succeeded in cleaning up Gotham. Has that ever happened with any other version of Batman (comic or movie)?
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, 20:24After a long, long wait, I've finally seen it.
I thought it was ok. Not as good as I'd have liked, but not as bad as I'd feared. It's definitely nowhere near as good as Joker (2019) or The Batman (2022), but I enjoyed it a lot more than the Batman '89 comic.
The Keaton material is generally great. He doesn't get the Jake Skywalker treatment as we'd feared, but is depicted as stronger and faster than ever, assuming a leadership role in the alternate JLA and showing off his skills, ingenuity and intellect to impressive effect. In the old movies he was knocked to the ground by handgun fire, but now he can absorb rifle fire from multiple gunmen at close range without losing his footing. I loved his fight scene against the Russian soldiers (though it was somewhat ruined by the comedy shots of Barry vomiting – hopefully someone will upload a clip of that fight to YouTube with the Barry shots removed), and his performance during the final battle was equally impressive. Batfleck managed to defeat Superman with the aid of kryptonite, but Keaton temporarily subdues Nam-Ek without kryptonite. The last time we saw Keaton's Batman in a one-on-one fight against a comic book villain, he was beating up the Penguin. Now he's facing off against Nam-Ek. That one helluva steep difficulty curve.
I liked seeing Keaton's Batman in a sci-fi context I've not seen him in before. In his earlier adventures he was fighting criminals in Gotham City, but in The Flash we get to see him leading his own mini JLA against a global threat. He's fast enough to stand toe-to-toe against speedsters and Kryptonians, and his new costume and weapons all look great. Keaton himself faultlessly slips back into the role, and I appreciate that they gave him some quieter reflective moments amid the action and comedy.
Keaton is the one aspect of the movie that I'm more or less happy with. My only criticism of his return is that they could have capitalised more on the unique mythos surrounding his Batman. They could have referenced Pfeiffer's Catwoman or Billy Dee Two-Face, or they could have made the alternate universe resemble the aesthetic of the Burtonverse. Instead the only references to the earlier movies take the form of fan service lines of dialogue or visual nods. Remember this object from Batman '89? Remember when Batman said this line in Batman '89? That's about as deep as the connections to the earlier movies get. It could just as easily have been Kilmer's Batman or Clooney's. I'm glad it was Keaton's, and his performance brings depth to the part, but I just think the script could have done more with those connections.
Other than that, I'm happy with Keaton's return. He had about half an hour of screen time in Batman Returns, and I imagine he has a roughly similar amount of screen time in The Flash. So there's going to be plenty for us to talk about and analyse in the future.
Moving on to other aspects of the film.
I've never liked Miller's interpretation of the Flash, and I've been a vocal critic of his since long before the allegations of misconduct emerged. He's bad enough as a comic relief sidekick, but as the main protagonist he's insufferable. He does a good job during the quieter emotional moments, but those scenes are too few to offset the irritation he provokes throughout the rest of the film. Hopefully this is the last we'll be seeing of his Barry.
There weren't many people at the screening I attended, and the few present were my age or older. There were no kids in the audience, which was just as well given the amount of swearing and stabbing scenes. Did they really have to say "sh*t" quite so many times, let alone drop an f-bomb? The movie's tone is juvenile, yet the violence and swearing make it unsuitable for the younger demographics that would best appreciate its humour. It's very tonally uneven, drifting from slapstick silliness to moments of sombre emotion that would've worked better in a less campy film.
Some people in the audience laughed at the jokes, but I didn't personally find them funny. The humour is the formulaic kind displayed in most modern CBMs: someone says or does something inappropriate to undermine an otherwise dramatic moment, pop songs play during action scenes to juxtapose the upbeat melody against the violence, heroes trade banter filled with pop culture references (usually to eighties movies or Star Wars), someone says "WTF", etc. If you find the first two Tom Holland Spider-Man movies funny, you'll probably like this too.
But if you're hoping for something on a par with No Way Home – which was the only film in Holland's trilogy that I liked – you might be disappointed. The Flash is a full-on comedy, which is odd considering it's based on Flashpoint. Flashpoint isn't a comedy, but a dark dystopian tragedy about Barry having to let go of his mother and the life he could have shared with her. That concept is still definitely present in the movie, and the film works best when emphasising Barry's emotional bond with his mother. However those scenes, effective though they are, feel incongruous in what is otherwise a slapstick comedy. I wish they'd played it more serious. A little humour is welcome, but I felt they overdid it here. The best parts of the film are the darker and more serious moments, and I wish there'd been more of them.
The movie is also too long. There are a lot of comedic and expository scenes in the first hour that could easily have been trimmed, and the final battle, as in most CBMs, is overblown. I don't understand why infantry were being deployed against alien air craft, or why the human soldiers kept slowly walking towards the Kryptonians firing rifles that had no effect on them. The Kryptonians also seemed slower and less durable than in Man of Steel. In Justice League, Superman was able to match the Flash's speed, but here the two Barry's were able to literally run circles around the Kryptonians and even incapacitate one of them with a vibratory strike to the chest. And Batman was able to knock out Nam-Ek with a bat-bomb. This struck me as inconsistent with the pre-established durability of the DCEU Kryptonians, though I didn't mind too much as it made Keaton seem more formidable.
I know some critics have compared the CGI in this film to a Playstation 3 game, and they weren't exaggerating. The Flash contains some of the worst special effects I've seen in a modern movie. There must be a story behind that. Maybe the artists didn't have time to finish them properly, or perhaps the reshoots meant they were given too many scenes to animate. Whatever the reason, I'm sure an explanation will emerge in time. I can imagine Corridor Crew doing a video about this movie at some point, and perhaps fixing some of those effects themselves.
I can also imagine this being the sort of film that will inspire fan edits. I'd like to see a more serious cut that trims the running time and reduces Miller's goofy dialogue to a minimum. I like to re-watch most movies in their entirety, but occasionally I'll see a film where one viewing is enough. After that, I prefer to just re-watch the best bits on YouTube. The Flash is one of those movies. I probably will get the DVD when it comes out, but I expect I'll be less inclined to re-watch the entire movie than just my favourite scenes. It's that kind of a film.
I've got many more things to say about The Flash, but I'll stop here for now. The score by Benjamin Wallfisch is good, and I enjoyed the cameos, even if they were poorly animated and only there for cheap fan service (Cage's was the best). If I were evaluating this film objectively, I'd say it's an average 5/10 CBM. However, Keaton's return strikes a personal chord with me, and that elevates it slightly. Fans of the Burton-Schumacher Batman series will enjoy this more than most, but without the Keaton element I don't think it's strong enough to stand on its own. So it's an average/mixed response from me.
I agree with a lot of what you've said here. This was my most anticipated comic book film of the year partially because of Keaton's performance, but also due to the word of mouth. Ultimately I came out thinking it was just fine. It's the same way I felt about Guardian's 3 and the majority of comic book movies that come out nowadays.
Regarding Keaton's Batman, it didn't really feel like you get a real sense as to what he's been up to since Returns. Him seemingly being a hermit of sorts didn't seem like that big of a stretch since that version of the character has always kept to himself. However, I did find it strange that there was zero security at Wayne Manor and in the Batcave. I also thought it was weird that there was no real acknowledgment of his age. When he's in the Batsuit he's fighting as if he's in his 30's.
And yeah Silver, I also found the use of old lines and references to the Burton films eye rolling at times. Think about this for a second, does it make any sense for Batman to have Joker's laugh box from the end of the original film? Not only was he not the one to find the box, but why would he keep a memento from his parents killer? That's purely in service of a "Hey, remember this?" moment rather than anything that makes character sense. It did reek a bit of what bothered me in No Way Home. That's another example where it felt like the writers didn't actually know how to write the other Spider-Men, so instead they just coasted on jokes and references.
The cameos at the end were also cringe and eye rolling for me as well. The CG was poor, and injecting versions of other heroes into superhero films has become tiresome for me at this point.
Walking out of this film I did have the distinct feeling of being over the genre at this point. It feels like everytime I've gotten my hopes up for a comic book movie within the last few years I've always been let down. It's crazy to me that X2, Spider-Man 2, and The Dark Knight came out nearly 20 years ago and yet they're all so ahead of the usual comic book movie fare that comes out nowadays. Why aren't we getting films of that caliber on a yearly basis? It honestly feels like this cinematic universe bs is really holding the genre back from realizing it's full potential.
Quote from: GBglide on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 01:42I was pleasantly surprised to find that Keaton's Batman succeeded in cleaning up Gotham. Has that ever happened with any other version of Batman (comic or movie)?
Not that I've read, but I did like that detail as well. It would've bothered me if he's retired and his whole crusade was for nothing.
Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 01:47Quote from: GBglide on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 01:42I was pleasantly surprised to find that Keaton's Batman succeeded in cleaning up Gotham. Has that ever happened with any other version of Batman (comic or movie)?
Not that I've read, but I did like that detail as well. It would've bothered me if he's retired and his whole crusade was for nothing.
True, I've never liked the comic idea that Gotham is literally on cursed soil. It makes Batman's job impossible, the best he can do is keep everything in check.
Quote from: GBglide on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 01:52Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 01:47Quote from: GBglide on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 01:42I was pleasantly surprised to find that Keaton's Batman succeeded in cleaning up Gotham. Has that ever happened with any other version of Batman (comic or movie)?
Not that I've read, but I did like that detail as well. It would've bothered me if he's retired and his whole crusade was for nothing.
True, I've never liked the comic idea that Gotham is literally on cursed soil. It makes Batman's job impossible, the best he can do is keep everything in check.
It's a general statement that doesn't give context as to how it happened. I lean on the side of not liking the idea crime vanishes from Gotham like magic. Because of that, I'm imagining that perhaps this Batman's other villains met similar fates to that of the Joker and the Penguin, and any other remaining lower level threats were kept in line with drones patrolling the streets in the real Batman's physical absence.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 03:29Quote from: GBglide on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 01:52Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 01:47Quote from: GBglide on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 01:42I was pleasantly surprised to find that Keaton's Batman succeeded in cleaning up Gotham. Has that ever happened with any other version of Batman (comic or movie)?
Not that I've read, but I did like that detail as well. It would've bothered me if he's retired and his whole crusade was for nothing.
True, I've never liked the comic idea that Gotham is literally on cursed soil. It makes Batman's job impossible, the best he can do is keep everything in check.
It's a general statement that doesn't give context as to how it happened. I lean on the side of not liking the idea crime vanishes from Gotham like magic. Because of that, I'm imagining that perhaps this Batman's other villains met similar fates to that of the Joker and the Penguin, and any other remaining lower level threats were kept in line with drones patrolling the streets in the real Batman's physical absence.
I was thinking how much Gotham cleaned up between 89 and Returns. 89 They were trying to get people to come back to Gotham and money seemed to come back by Returns so I think if there was a Batman to clean up Gotham, it would be Keatons.
I do wonder bout small crimes tho considering his big introduction and how he was going after low level criminals.
A fun & breezy mess of a movie
That's about how I would describe "The Flash". It's definitely not as bad as some are making it out to be, but at the same time, no where near a classic comic book movie either. With repeat viewings, your mileage may vary. Personally, I had fun with it. The script overall could have used a few rewrites, however, I couldn't help but think that "The Flash" really felt like a throwback to a 1990's type superhero movie. Complete with a breakneck pace, cheesy one-liners, and what comes across as a limited capability for special effects. With the cameos being outstanding examples of this.
Seeing Michael Keaton's Batman return, after all this time, was the ultimate pinnacle for my interest with this, and what a joy it was! He makes playing the part seem absolutely effortless, and admittedly his call-back lines didn't irritate me. Not one bit. Actually, the "Lets Get Nuts" bit even gave me goosebumps knowing in the back of my mind, the last time that he might have ever said that, was towards Nicholson's Joker. I also enjoyed how aloof he came across with the two Barry's following the kitchen conversation, and his assessment about the multiverse using spaghetti to illustrate his point, then following it up with a "yeah, pass." The way Keaton played it, reminded me of how he departed from Vicki and Knox in '89, after he said, "Give Knox a grant." A nice touch indeed. Course, I could go on and on, but overall Keaton really looked like he was enjoying himself in the film, and I think his performance shined the very brightest in this film. Not even close.
I never was particularly a big fan of Ezra's version of the Flash, but I'll give him his due that he played the duo role quite well. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of his filming was against a green screen, and he's clearly not simply phoning it in, so I'll give the guy props for that. He's definitely the main character(s) of the piece, and if his performance doesn't work, then this film wouldn't work whatsoever. The way the speedforce is conveyed in this film was different and unique (As far as I know), so that was a plus. I can't say i ever really was a big fan of the Flashpoint story arc, so the fact that the live action iteration also took liberties doesn't really irk me whatsoever to be perfectly honest. Sure, the Reverse-Flash would have been nice, but at the same time, it's VERY Barry centric and apparently the film wants to continually hammer that nail in.
I liked Sasha Calle's Supergirl, as she exuded a confidence yet emotional persona that a Kara Zor-El Supergirl should ideally evoke, but it really felt like her scenes were edited down to the absolute bare minimum in order to get to the desert fight scene with Zod and his forces, and even then I've read that the Supergirl/Zod fight scenes were edited due to them coming across more R rated than originally anticipated.
The Super-Cameos scene was pretty fun overall. The cameo that the West/Dozierverse was more fleeting than I would have honestly preferred, but it was a nice enough nod. Sounded like Caesar Romero was speaking along with Adam West for the brief time that Earth was shown. Speaking of Romero, supposedly Romero's Joker, Burgess Meredith's Penguin, Marlon Brando's Jor-El, and Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman were to be included as well during the cameos sequence, but were left on the cutting room floor. Personally, I would have definitely scrapped the Jay Garrick cameo (since there's no real attachment there for the general audiences to grasp) in favor for Lynda's Wonder Woman. I liked seeing Nic Cage's Superman (hell I even backed Jon Schnepp's outstanding documentary about the film), but the entire sequence felt a little too Superman focused with all the variations. So I can't help but feel conflicted overall. Might a appearance from Dick Durock's Swamp Thing sufficed (being that he starred in 2 movies and a 3 season tv show)? Or maybe even Jackson Bostwick/John Davey's Captain Marvel/Shazam from the 1970s?
If I were to have a major gripe, is that the film comes across as being tinkered with and tinkered with, and tinkered with (go figure). There is such a thing as succeeding something into a failure due to consistent 'adjustments', and though I wouldn't call "The Flash" a failure, it simply doesn't qualify as a top-tier film in the genre. Better than a lot of Disney's Marvel movies no matter what the mouseketeers say (especially so in more recent years oof), but it's unfortunately not 2019's "Joker", the Burton Bat-movies, the Nolan Batman trilogy, or Zack Snyder's (non-fiddled around with) DCEU trilogy. it's just not. However, it is a fun watch, albeit messy at times, non-lecturing, and there is amusing value in such a film. Not every movie can be a absolute critical darling and winner at the box office, nor should they be.
Again, a fun & breezy mess of a movie.
I'm glad we got to see Keaton's Bruce fighting out of costume for once. There was meant to be a scene in Batman Returns where Bruce and Selina fought off a gang of muggers in their civilian guises, but it ended up being cut from the script.
In general I'm very happy with Keaton's action scenes in this movie. I thought we'd get one fight scene, but instead we were lucky enough to get three:
• Drunk Bruce versus the two Barrys
• Batman versus the Russian soldiers
• The one-on-one 'boss fight' between Batman and Nam-Ek
Each fight scene was different and unique in its own way, and I'll be updating the 'Fighting Style of the Burton Batman' thread to analyse them once they're available online. Based on my initial viewing, I'd say his fighting style in The Flash is basically a faster and more agile version of his fighting style in B89. In B89 he mostly uses kicks, hooks and jabs, favouring an offensive approach over the more defensive strategy he employs in BR. In BR he uses fewer kicks and more headbutts, backhand strikes and interception grapple moves; generally waiting for his opponent to attack first, and then blocking/dodging and counterattacking.
His fighting style in The Flash is closer to B89, albeit enhanced with greater speed and some new moves. I reckon he has at least two or three new martial arts in his repertoire, but I'll go into that in more depth once the clips appear online.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 14:42I'm glad we got to see Keaton's Bruce fighting out of costume for once. There was meant to be a scene in Batman Returns where Bruce and Selina fought off a gang of muggers in their civilian guises, but it ended up being cut from the script.
In general I'm very happy with Keaton's action scenes in this movie. I thought we'd get one fight scene, but instead we were lucky enough to get three:
• Drunk Bruce versus the two Barrys
• Batman versus the Russian soldiers
• The one-on-one 'boss fight' between Batman and Nam-Ek
Each fight scene was different and unique in its own way, and I'll be updating the 'Fighting Style of the Burton Batman' thread to analyse them once they're available online. Based on my initial viewing, I'd say his fighting style in The Flash is basically a faster and more agile version of his fighting style in B89. In B89 he mostly uses kicks, hooks and jabs, favouring an offensive approach over the more defensive strategy he employs in BR. In BR he uses fewer kicks and more headbutts, backhand strikes and interception grapple moves; generally waiting for his opponent to attack first, and then blocking/dodging and counterattacking.
His fighting style in The Flash is closer to B89, albeit enhanced with greater speed and some new moves. I reckon he has at least two or three new martial arts in his repertoire, but I'll go into that in more depth once the clips appear online.
Batman in the flash did feel alot more like 89 than Returns. I actually can't recall any call backs to Returns outside the Batmobile
Quote from: eledoremassis02
Batman in the flash did feel alot more like 89 than Returns. I actually can't recall any call backs to Returns outside the Batmobile
/quote]
The logo on Batman's new suit is the Return's insignia. Alternate Barry wears the Return's suit in the finale.
Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 16:09Quote from: eledoremassis02
Batman in the flash did feel alot more like 89 than Returns. I actually can't recall any call backs to Returns outside the Batmobile
/quote]
The logo on Batman's new suit is the Return's insignia. Alternate Barry wears the Return's suit in the finale.
Duh! Im dumb ;D Im also glad the Returns suit flash used looked to be an unfished one since the emblem was still unpainted
Also, I missed the small part about Barry telling Bruce about when he reversd time before so the Snyder cut is cannon! Not to mention he saved that one kid during Man of Steel wich goes against Justice League Theatrical
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXelb5grnZ0
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 16:01Batman in the flash did feel alot more like 89 than Returns. I actually can't recall any call backs to Returns outside the Batmobile
The cape glider was similar to Returns, and the chest logo has already been mentioned. Drunk or not, Bruce's missed attack on Barry's head with the broom could've had the power to kill or seriously injure. This Batman doesn't run even when under time sensitive pressure either, but walks with purpose ala the Burton films. There are a couple references to the bat turn as well, namely when he looks up the elevator shaft before planting the explosive. I was hoping that explosive blast took down some soldiers just for old times sake - in memory of the Strongman.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 20:44Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 16:01Batman in the flash did feel alot more like 89 than Returns. I actually can't recall any call backs to Returns outside the Batmobile
The cape glider was similar to Returns, and the chest logo has already been mentioned. Drunk or not, Bruce's missed attack on Barry's head with the broom could've had the power to kill or seriously injure. This Batman doesn't run even when under time sensitive pressure either, but walks with purpose ala the Burton films. There are a couple references to the bat turn as well, namely when he looks up the elevator shaft before planting the explosive. I was hoping that explosive blast took down some soldiers just for old times sake - in memory of the Strongman.
I was hoping for at least the returns batarang or even the unused bomb prop used in 89 but as far as I could tell his newer stuff looked generic.
A new HollywoodReporter article going over all the multiple endings.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/the-flash-inside-george-clooney-return-batman-1235517975/
QuoteHollywood secrets have become notoriously hard to keep, but Warner Bros. and the filmmakers of The Flash pulled off a doozy with the final moments of their DC film.
After more than 25 years, George Clooney returned to the role of Bruce Wayne, marking a remarkable change of heart for an actor who was unequivocally done with the role. It was also a secret that the studio was able to keep tight for close to six months.
In a mic drop movie moment, one which has left audiences howling, The Flash's final scenes shows Barry Allen (Ezra Miller) on the phone with Bruce Wayne. The phone call comes after a climactic courthouse hearing and Barry finally returning to his own Earth and timeline. Wayne pulls up to the courthouse in his car and as he gets out, the assembled crowd part to reveal Wayne...as played by Clooney, not the Ben Affleck version Barry expected.
Clooney infamously played Bruce Wayne/Batman in filmmaker Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin, the ill-fated 1997 movie considered one of the worst superhero films of all time. The actor has repudiated it over the years, with it being the most visible miss in his storied career.
He told Howard Stern in late 2020 that it was physically painful to watch his work in the role. Said the actor: "The truth of the matter is, I was bad in it. Akiva Goldsman — who's won the Oscar for writing since then — he wrote the screenplay. And it's a terrible screenplay, he'll tell you. I'm terrible in it, I'll tell you. Joel Schumacher, who just passed away, directed it, and he'd say, 'Yeah, it didn't work.' We all whiffed on that one."
Clooney was known as a TV actor on the hit medical procedural ER when he was cast as Batman. It was to have been a defining moment for the actor, to become a full-fledged movie star in a time when movies stars, not brands or IP, mattered. Instead, the movie was a nail in the coffin for DC and Batman movies for years, with Batman finally returning to the big-screen with 2005's Batman Begins.
Clooney's return to Bruce Wayne was not years in the making. In fact, it was made within a few weeks with some phone calls, two screenings of the movie, and a half day of shooting in January.
It was also the third ending crafted for the film, which director Andy Muschietti made through three separate regimes at Warners. The Flash serves as a study of a movie that survived and evolved in a rapidly changing media landscape, facing the dictates of several sets of studio heads and a multi-billion dollar acquisition.
The Flash began life under the studio regime run by Toby Emmerich and his lieutenant, DC Films boss Walter Hamada. Most of the shooting and post-production was undertaken under that leadership, with the movie as part of Hamada's plan to have Flash build to a major reset of the entire DC cinematic universe, departing from the one established by filmmaker Zack Snyder with Man of Steel a decade ago. Hamada planned a Flash sequel and then wanted to move to a movie inspired by the 1980s classic comic event, Crisis on Infinite Earths.
The Flash, as it was originally conceived and shot, ended on the courthouse steps with Supergirl, played by Sasha Calle, and Batman, played by Michael Keaton, who was already featured throughout the movie as a returned Batman. It was meant to highlight that Barry did not reset the timeline as he thought he did. It was an ending that was screen tested several times, one that reversed the deaths of Supergirl and Batman earlier in the film.
However, the movie got caught in the lightning storm that was Discovery's acquisition of Warner Bros. in 2022. Emmerich and Hamada were ousted, and Warner Bros. Discovery CEO David Zaslav was on the hunt for an executive to run DC. In the meantime, Michael De Luca and Pamela Abdy were installed as Warner Bros. Pictures Group chairpersons and CEOs. They were tasked with overseeing DC in the meantime, and suddenly and certainly not unexpectedly they had their own plans.
A new The Flash ending was conceived. This new version was still on the courthouse steps, but now Calle's Supergirl was joined by Superman, played by Henry Cavill, and Wonder Woman, played by Gal Gadot. Keaton also remained. De Luca and Abdy believed they were being strategic with the ending. Cavill was going to cameo for DC movie Black Adam and was being teed up to return to the role in a brand new Superman movie. Supergirl was retained because even though the executives were killing the development of a standalone Supergirl movie, they were open to her returning in some form and didn't want the last image audiences saw of her to be her death at the hands of a supervillain (Michael Shannon's General Zod).
Meanwhile, the studio was developing a third installment of Wonder Woman with filmmaker Patty Jenkins and star Gadot. This was a nice way to keep Wonder Woman in the cultural conversation. This ending was shot in September involving Miller, Cavill and Gadot as well as Keaton and Calle.
Then came another lightning strike. In November, Zaslav announced that filmmaker James Gunn and producer Peter Safran were to run DC Studios, overseeing all DC film and television efforts. And suddenly and certainly not unexpectedly, they had their own plans.
Knowing they were resetting the DC universe under their own vision, Gunn and Safran saw that having Cavill and Gadot in the new ending was potentially promising something their plans were not going to deliver. One of the first actions the duo took was to scrap the Cavill Superman film, and they parted ways with Jenkins, effectively killing the third Wonder Woman installment.
The filmmakers, according to multiple people associated with the movie, then looked for alternatives but wanted to keep the germ of the idea: Barry Allen thinks all is right, but then has the rug pulled out at the last moment. They also went back to an idea joked about earlier in the filmmaking process: "How many Batmen can we get?" Clooney was brought up as a long-shot, but Gunn and Safran jumped on the notion.
The duo reached out to Clooney's agent at CAA, Bryan Lourd, showing him a cut of the mostly finished film. He liked it and then showed it to Clooney. Clooney liked it and agreed to be a part of it.
A shoot was quickly assembled and on a January morning on the Warners lot, Clooney was there as Wayne, back for the first time in 26 years. Also on set was Miller, making their first appearance on the lot since the fateful day in August where they met with De Luca and Abdy to discuss their controversial behavior (including multiple arrests) and steps forward.
Miller was in top form that day, sources say, for what was described as a quick and efficient shoot. Clooney and Miller spent some time together in between takes with the veteran actor having a talk with the younger actor, giving encouraging advice about handling being in the public eye and behaving in public.
Warner kept the new ending tucked away as much as possible. The studio didn't even screen test it. And when it screened the movie at CinemaCon for theater owners and press in April, it stopped short of revealing who came to the courthouse steps. The first time the new ending was seen by anyone other than the filmmakers was at screenings for press the week of June 4, and then at the movie's premiere last June 12.
"It's rare that you have a movie in post-production that faces three separate regimes with three separate agendas," notes one insider. "None of them were scrapped because of ill will, just different visions."
Do hope we get them on the bluray, tho I feel like we might not ever see them. Seeing Keaton with DCEU Superman and Wonderwoman would be something!
I ping pong when it comes to this film.
I can't decide if I like it a fair amount, or if I find it mediocre.
It has a fair set of issues--not the kind that make a movie unwatchable to me, but flaws all the same. After how WB foolishly tried to overhype this flick, I can say that it didn't live up to that hype. For me, the worst thing a film can be is boring or lifeless, and The Flash was not.
It had a lot of things going for it--a genuinely decent through-line and heart. But it's in service to a Barry Allen I've never liked. Regardless of Miller's real life escapades, their Barry Allen has never been "Barry Allen" to me, and that impacts everything. They continued to make Barry an obtuse, fidgety neophyte--and it's not like I didn't know that was possible, going in. They were certainly better than before (and the younger Barry was there for greater contrast), but still, it isn't an ideal portrayal of The Flash... and it adapts a storyline I don't care for. The Barry Allen I knew and loved (Pre-Crisis) was wise and seasoned enough to know not to mess with time. This isn't the film's fault--that's just a case of Geoff Johns changing Barry's character to make such a stupid mistake.
The film's execution leaves much to be desired--it's routinely fine, most of the time... but the fact remains that the comedy should have been dialed back by at least 20%. They didn't interject comedy into the middle of important scenes and that's commendable given the comedic sensibilities on display--I thought for sure we were going to head that way based on the type of jokes they were doing. In spite of all this, the film somehow managed to never irritate me. Perhaps because outside of one aspect (we know which one), I wasn't expecting real greatness.
But you know what? It's all water under the bridge at the end of the day--because this film gave me back my hero, and in full force.
As prettymuch everyone unanimously agrees, Michael Keaton rocked this sh*t, and he rocked it hard. Some of the best Batman stuff put to film--an older, trustworthy hero who, in spite of the amateurs he had to look after, never once lost his cool or failed. Calculating, quick thinking and the bravest man on the planet. Prettymuch single-handedly rescued Supergirl (The Barrys were no help and despite Kara, I think he could have managed to take the guards on the surface), and while any Batman whooping Kryptonians is a tall order without them magic green space rocks, Keaton gave everything he had. Fought until his body could do no more. THAT's how a hero goes out.
The fact that he basically was a main character for the last hour and a half of the film just blows my socks off. It's fair that he not have more screen time than the main character, but in today's world, he could have easily been in the film much less--they gave me enough that I was satisfied, despite the fact we know there was the chance for more. With the plans for Keaton to stick around, they might easily have only had him in this for a measly fifteen or twenty minutes.
His heart-to-heart with Barry at the Batcomputer was a wonderful thing--his movies before were made in a time where too much dialogue from Batman would be demystifying, but in a world that fully embraces superheroes, Keaton finally gets to exposit a bit on Wayne's state of mind and it kind of brings a wonderful cap on his time in the cape and cowl. This is a man who has had time to reflect on his life and see it for what it is. No excuses and no regrets. After all, he succeeded in his task.
But when the world needed him, Batman returned.
His death scene was lovely--very meaningful to me and very reverently performed by Keaton. There was a great sense of acceptance on Bruce's part--again, no regrets. He knew the sacrifice he made had been worth it, even if it was doomed. After all, what more could he do? I think the only thing that could have brought him regret was a refusal to try.
What an experience. I'd probably give the film a 4/10, but Keaton makes it a 7.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, 20:49Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, 20:15Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 16 Jun 2023, 19:59Colors going to a cinema? Seems like a special event rarity from what I understand. Naturally I'll be interested to hear what you think of both the movie and the cinema going experience itself.
I think I can do it. Besides, it's Keaton as Batman, amirite?
The cinema going experience can be hit and miss. The hit is always the big screen, the darkness and the sound. But who you're seated with is luck of the draw. If things escalate in there make sure you don't miss when you go to hit.
Don't expect a movie like Joker or The Batman as the tone is different to that. I still mostly enjoyed the movie though for what it was going for, even if I'd have to push it down my Batman movie appearance ranking as other films are much purer, Batman world centric adaptions.
I was able to get out of the house today after all.
My investment in this movie begins and ends with Keaton. Everything else is secondary (at best).
Bruce has settled into a comfy retirement. As I've said, my personal biography for comic book Batman goes that somewhere in his forties, he's going to wake up one morning and decide that his parents never would've wanted this life for him. After that, he'd retire from Batman activities, destroy any evidence linking him to Batman, lock stately Wayne Manor up, move away from Gotham and... who knows? Maybe marry Selina? Or just vanish into obscurity? It'd be something, I think.
TF uses some of that. It would feel disingenuous for this version of Bruce to get married, have kids, live a public life or even leave Gotham City. But he seems to have found some amount of peace. And after cleaning up the city, he seems perfectly content to hang around stately Wayne Manor munching pizza or SpaghettiOs or something.
The collection of previous Batsuits (however you want to contextualize them) sang to my inner 10 year old, who collected Kenner's Dark Knight Collection and Batman Returns lines. In fact, there seemed to be a fairly noticeable Kenner influence on other aspects of the production, such as Batfleck's Batcycle.
I enjoy the ambiguity of Keaton's final fate. Is he gone forever? Or did he simply return to his own timeline/universe and resume his retirement? I prefer the latter, honestly. I never wanted this version of Batman to ever be killed off. So, going back to the quiet life suits me fine.
Sasha Calle won me over as Kara. It looks like this version of the character is destined to get nuked off the map one way or the other. And in a way, that's a real shame because Calle brings actual strength and gravitas to the role in the (relatively few) scenes she appears in. Certainly, she's a lot more captivating than I was originally expecting.
I could take or leave Ron Livingston as Henry. He makes the most of his scenes. But casting him does seem like a bit of thumb of the nose at Snyder's canon. Still, it's not like Crudup did something with the character that no other actor could hope to match. Livingston is fine.
Casting Maribel Verdú just seems like pandering. This will never make sense to me.
There seems to be debate going around as to how permanent Clooney will be. Some are saying this is a one and done cameo for Clooney to wink at one of his most infamous roles. But some people seem to be arguing that he's The Man going forward. Which, if true, would certainly be a pretty ironic turn of events.
As ever, my grievance with the multiverse as presented in DC adaptations up to now is that there's little to distinguish one version of a character from another. Is Cage's Superman all that different from Cavill or Reeve's?
But the Pre-Crisis multiverse showed real and meaningful differences in one universe as compared to another. On Pre-Crisis Earth 1, Superman is the GOAT. On Earth 2, he's a significant hero but way less powerful than Earth 1. On Earth 3, he's a villain. On Earth 4 (and others), he didn't exist at all. So on and so forth. Point being that all these different Earths/universes are VERY different from each other.
But in today's world, "multiverse" means "let's bring back a bunch of previous incarnations of identical characters".
I had low expectations of TF. And the movie did not disappoint me, to be fair. My sparsely filled screening (MAYBE 50% full?) seemed to genuinely enjoy the movie tho. They laughed at the jokes and even applauded when credits rolled. Whatever fate holds in store for TF at the box office, I'm guessing word of mouth will be generally positive.
I think I found the mouse used on the Batcomputer. It looks like its the Kensington Expert Trackball Mouse , and according to Amazon, it was first available on July 7, 2004
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzQWKpzq/flashmouse.png)
(https://www.boundlessat.com/ExpertMouseTrackball.png?resizeid=-2&resizeh=300&resizew=300)
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 23:59Do hope we get them on the bluray, tho I feel like we might not ever see them. Seeing Keaton with DCEU Superman and Wonderwoman would be something!
I liked the way Keaton dismissed the name Superman as being 'on the nose'. Even though it's the first time he's heard of the guy and has no idea who he is, it hints at the friendly rivalry they usually have in traditional timelines. The two titans of the DC universe. Lennon and McCartney.
Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 02:50As prettymuch everyone unanimously agrees, Michael Keaton rocked this sh*t, and he rocked it hard. Some of the best Batman stuff put to film--an older, trustworthy hero who, in spite of the amateurs he had to look after, never once lost his cool or failed. Calculating, quick thinking and the bravest man on the planet. Prettymuch single-handedly rescued Supergirl (The Barrys were no help and despite Kara, I think he could have managed to take the guards on the surface), and while any Batman whooping Kryptonians is a tall order without them magic green space rocks, Keaton gave everything he had. Fought until his body could do no more. THAT's how a hero goes out.
I think it's extremely likely that in every variation of his death, Keaton dies on his own terms and heroically. The two deaths we see are in that spirit. There's no reason to suspect the others wouldn't have been the same.
The scenes from B89 and BR are probably always going to take precedence, but the whole stretch from the Barrys meeting Bruce to Bruce in front of the mirror after rescuing Supergirl is some of the best stuff we've seen from Keaton. Really good stuff there and it justifies the comeback.
Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 02:50What an experience. I'd probably give the film a 4/10, but Keaton makes it a 7.
I'm along the same lines. The Keaton content pushes the score up to around that mark.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 03:18I enjoy the ambiguity of Keaton's final fate. Is he gone forever? Or did he simply return to his own timeline/universe and resume his retirement? I prefer the latter, honestly. I never wanted this version of Batman to ever be killed off. So, going back to the quiet life suits me fine.
I like that too. I'm of the opinion he's in his long hair, retired state and completely oblivious as to what happened with the other timeline. But if the world was at serious risk again in the future, like in The Flash, he'd be willing to suit up again and enter the fray. But as it stands Gotham is crime free and he actually achieved his mission. Seeing him again instead of Clooney would've been good, but in the end I don't think it was essential to scream out that he was definitely saved. You can work that out in your head, and he also gets closure in Barry's arms. The movie gets to have its cake and eat it too.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 03:18There seems to be debate going around as to how permanent Clooney will be. Some are saying this is a one and done cameo for Clooney to wink at one of his most infamous roles. But some people seem to be arguing that he's The Man going forward. Which, if true, would certainly be a pretty ironic turn of events.
I don't think it will happen at this stage, but I now think he could be a fine Batman in a lighter toned but better sculpted film. He has the charisma for Bruce Wayne and could sell the mentor side of things well. Let's see what happens.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 03:18I had low expectations of TF. And the movie did not disappoint me, to be fair. My sparsely filled screening (MAYBE 50% full?) seemed to genuinely enjoy the movie tho. They laughed at the jokes and even applauded when credits rolled. Whatever fate holds in store for TF at the box office, I'm guessing word of mouth will be generally positive.
I've seen a statement that a sequel, presumably with Keaton, would be greenlit if this one makes money similar to The Batman. For the sake of Keaton alone I'm hopeful that occurs, but right now I'm feeling uncertain that total will be reached. The critic score is average on Rotten Tomatoes, but the audience score is currently 85%. Perhaps word of mouth will bump up ticket sales, and audiences are having a good enough time with what they're seeing. Like you, and seemingly everyone here, we at least enjoyed what the film did with Batman.
Quote from: The Joker on Sat, 17 Jun 2023, 23:27A new HollywoodReporter article going over all the multiple endings.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/the-flash-inside-george-clooney-return-batman-1235517975/
The more I think about the Clooney ending, the more I dislike it. Everything about that scene was lazy. Clooney phoned it in, exuding none of the magnetism that Keaton and Affleck gave off whenever they were on screen. It didn't even feel like Clooney was playing the Schumacher Bruce Wayne. It was more like he was just being himself. 'Remember that guy who played the worst Batman? Well here he is!' It reminded me of those Nespresso coffee ads he used to do, where it was just, 'oh look, it's George Clooney being George Clooney'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXru4Q7Lgxo
He brought no energy or sparkle to The Flash IMO, and I say that as someone who has a lot of nostalgic fondness for his Batman and B&R in general.
The dialogue was also lame. There were no nods to Clooney's meme-worthy dialogue in B&R. He could've at least said "This is why Supergirl works alone" or something along those lines. But no. We got nothing. Just a character dropping an f-bomb in a PG-13 film, which is one of the laziest and most overused comedy tropes in modern cinema.
If they'd done more with it, it might have worked. Like if they'd had O'Donnell show up too, or at least a stand-in wearing the Robin motorcycle helmet, and then looped in some dialogue where Dick says something like, "Yo Bruce! Get it in gear! Domino's closes in ten!" That would've been lame too, but at least it would've been in the spirit of B&R. Instead they picked the worst of the three possible endings and invested minimum effort or creativity.
And to think, we could've got a more earnest scene with Keaton and Calle returning, confirming that their deaths were not permanent. We could've seen them meet Cavill's Superman. Cavill could have appeared for real instead of as a CGI cameo, and we could've seen him interact with Keaton.
Instead, thanks to Gunn, that scene was sacrificed in favour of a cheap sight gag. If this is a taste of what's to come under Gunn's leadership, then I'm not impressed. Bringing Clooney back was a fun idea that had potential, but I don't think The Flash capitalised on it effectively.
It does seem as though something went down behind the scenes between Cavill and the studio. The way they've treated him since Gunn took over is pretty bad. Maybe he asked for too much money. Or maybe Gunn asked him to cameo in Peacemaker and Cavill told him to sod off, and now Gunn's taking his revenge. Whatever the reason, Cavill should have been in The Flash. If this was the big send-off for the DCEU, then the actor who started it should have made an appearance. That final scene should have been a curtain call for the entire DCEU.
Oh well. As long as the deleted scenes get released, the fan edits can fix this.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 05:19Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 02:50What an experience. I'd probably give the film a 4/10, but Keaton makes it a 7.
I'm along the same lines. The Keaton content pushes the score up to around that mark.
Several people have asked me if the film's any good, and I find that a difficult question to answer. The movie itself isn't particularly good, but the Keaton material, which was my only reason for watching it, is excellent. So... is it good? Well, no... and yes. I loved the part of the film I was hyped about seeing, but the rest of it is just ok. It doesn't live up to the absurd 'one of the best superhero movies ever' hype, and yet it didn't disappoint me where it counts.
Without Keaton it'd be another generic disposable CBM, but the Batman storyline is so satisfying that it definitely elevates the overall product. It's been a long time since I felt this conflicted about a movie.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 03:18Sasha Calle won me over as Kara. It looks like this version of the character is destined to get nuked off the map one way or the other. And in a way, that's a real shame because Calle brings actual strength and gravitas to the role in the (relatively few) scenes she appears in. Certainly, she's a lot more captivating than I was originally expecting.
I liked Calle's Supergirl too. I wasn't particularly interested in that storyline before seeing the movie, but I thought she did a good job and the overall depiction of the character was different enough from Slater or Benoist's versions to feel interesting. It would be a shame if they didn't bring her back in some form.
So I saw it again last night and intentionally went to a drive in. A drive in does help to mask bad special effects depending on where you're sitting, so I wasn't as distracted by the VFX like I was in my first viewing.
I did enjoy it a little more now that I'm aware of what kind of movie it is. However, I think the weakest portion for me is the second act stuff with alternate Barry. It eventually does pick back up when Bruce (Keaton) is introduced into it and has good pacing from there until the climax.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 10:31And to think, we could've got a more earnest scene with Keaton and Calle returning, confirming that their deaths were not permanent. We could've seen them meet Cavill's Superman. Cavill could have appeared for real instead of as a CGI cameo, and we could've seen him interact with Keaton.
Again, this is just the problem with doing cinematic universe's on film. That ending is purely in service of the larger picture rather than being in service of this story. I care about the fate of the characters I've been following for the past 2 hours over a wink at the audience cameo. Again, I'm ready to just see these heroes being in self contained universes because putting them all together holds the quality of the movie back imo.
And yes it's definitely a reshoot because Miller looked noticeably different to me.
The Critical Drinker has posted his review. He hated everything about it except Keaton.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djvkQBPHWGo
Another reason for having Cavill in the finale is that it would have offered an emotional conclusion to Supergirl's storyline. The alternate universe is imperilled owing to Superman's absence. Keaton's Justice League try picking up the slack, but ultimately fail. The world needs Superman, and having him return at the end and meet his cousin – a cousin who was heartbroken by her failure to protect and avenge him in the Flashpoint universe – would have ended Supergirl's storyline on a touching familial note.
But Gunn and his colleagues decided the Clooney ending was better, so that's what we got.
I'm sure someone else has mentioned this by now, but I really liked the bullet proof cape. Idk if it was a direct reference to this, but in Sam Hamm's original draft and in the comic book adaptation of the 89 film the cape was originally how Batman deflected Napier's bullet at Axis Chemicals.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 18:43Another reason for having Cavill in the finale is that it would have offered an emotional conclusion to Supergirl's storyline. The alternate universe is imperilled owing to Superman's absence. Keaton's Justice League try picking up the slack, but ultimately fail. The world needs Superman, and having him return at the end and meet his cousin – a cousin who was heartbroken by her failure to protect and avenge him in the Flashpoint universe – would have ended Supergirl's storyline on a touching familial note.
But Gunn and his colleagues decided the Clooney ending was better, so that's what we got.
Agreed. It would have truly been a more,
much more satisfying conclusion to Calle's Supergirl arc, and having Keaton's Batman alongside Cavill's Superman, and Gadot's Wonder Woman in the same scene, even if they didn't interact all that much, would have been a visual treat nevertheless.
A more pleasant and gratifying conclusion. Rather than going for the lulz. Typical.
Muschietti on not emulating Burton. Think it's rather a confirmation that this is 89 Batman
The Flash Director Didn't Emulate Tim Burton's Visual Style Because It Required Too Many Hats
Warner Bros.
BY JEREMY MATHAI/JUNE 16, 2023 4:15 PM EST
This article contains spoilers for "The Flash."
Now that it's becoming commonplace for modern superhero movies to dip into the past and pull entire characters out of pre-established franchise continuities, more and more filmmakers have to grapple with a bit of a thorny question. When bringing Tobey Maguire's Peter Parker and Willem Dafoe's Norman Osborn out of "Spider-Man" (2002) and into the Marvel Cinematic Universe, should their scenes together in "Spider-Man: No Way Home" have adopted the same stylistic qualities that director Sam Raimi is so well known for? Or take "The Flash," which decided to revisit one of the most visually distinct superhero movies ever made — Tim Burton's "Batman" (1989) — and bring back Michael Keaton's Bruce Wayne out of retirement. Andy Muschietti certainly leaves his stamp on every movie he makes (likely including the upcoming "Batman: Brave and the Bold," as was just revealed) , but "The Flash" doesn't exactly borrow any of the Gothic expressionism that Burton so clearly loved.
It should come as no surprise that there's a very good reason why Muschietti didn't want to emulate the Burton movies too much. The plot of "The Flash" involves Ezra Miller's Barry Allen being forcibly shoved out of the Speed Force when traveling back to the past and thrown into a whole other timeline. We're meant to assume that his plan to alter history actually worked without a hitch, saving the life of his mother and preventing his father from imprisonment. But after he runs into his younger self, he realizes that he's erased multiple members of the "Justice League" from existence and discovers that he has no idea who this world's Bruce Wayne is — even though we do.
So why avoid the Burton of it all? It had to do with ... hats. Obviously!
Best of both worlds
Warner Bros.
If you can't beat 'em, best to not even try to join 'em. While some fans may find it jarring to see Michael Keaton's Batman running around in such a modern setting with a wildly different sense of atmosphere in "The Flash," there was a method to the madness. While making a recent appearance on IndieWire's Filmmaker Toolkit podcast, director Andy Muschietti revealed why he felt so strongly about separating himself from Tim Burton's famous aesthetics. In essence, hewing too close to Burton's style would've given away the entire game. According to Muschietti:
"How do we integrate a movie that is, tonally, so different? One thing I knew for sure was that I wouldn't try to emulate the cinematography of [Burton's movies] because it would be completely tonally different, but also, it would alert audiences that the world in which Barry lands is a Tim Burton movie. If you go 100% in that direction, you would have to have people with hats and stuff, and this blue-blasted backlights that are so particular in his movies. The level of fantasy in the design would be prohibitive in my movie, so I tried to blend the two worlds, and I think we managed to reach a balance where it's still believable that the Michael Keaton Batman exists in this timeline."
Read More: https://www.slashfilm.com/1316378/the-flash-director-didnt-want-to-go-too-far-into-tim-burton-territory/
A youtuber who's channel is devoted to the history of Batman, Salazar Knight, gives his positive review of "The Flash".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVnJTNzR3PA
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sun, 18 Jun 2023, 22:13Muschietti on not emulating Burton. Think it's rather a confirmation that this is 89 Batman
The Flash Director Didn't Emulate Tim Burton's Visual Style Because It Required Too Many Hats
Warner Bros.
BY JEREMY MATHAI/JUNE 16, 2023 4:15 PM EST
This article contains spoilers for "The Flash."
Now that it's becoming commonplace for modern superhero movies to dip into the past and pull entire characters out of pre-established franchise continuities, more and more filmmakers have to grapple with a bit of a thorny question. When bringing Tobey Maguire's Peter Parker and Willem Dafoe's Norman Osborn out of "Spider-Man" (2002) and into the Marvel Cinematic Universe, should their scenes together in "Spider-Man: No Way Home" have adopted the same stylistic qualities that director Sam Raimi is so well known for? Or take "The Flash," which decided to revisit one of the most visually distinct superhero movies ever made — Tim Burton's "Batman" (1989) — and bring back Michael Keaton's Bruce Wayne out of retirement. Andy Muschietti certainly leaves his stamp on every movie he makes (likely including the upcoming "Batman: Brave and the Bold," as was just revealed) , but "The Flash" doesn't exactly borrow any of the Gothic expressionism that Burton so clearly loved.
It should come as no surprise that there's a very good reason why Muschietti didn't want to emulate the Burton movies too much. The plot of "The Flash" involves Ezra Miller's Barry Allen being forcibly shoved out of the Speed Force when traveling back to the past and thrown into a whole other timeline. We're meant to assume that his plan to alter history actually worked without a hitch, saving the life of his mother and preventing his father from imprisonment. But after he runs into his younger self, he realizes that he's erased multiple members of the "Justice League" from existence and discovers that he has no idea who this world's Bruce Wayne is — even though we do.
So why avoid the Burton of it all? It had to do with ... hats. Obviously!
Best of both worlds
Warner Bros.
If you can't beat 'em, best to not even try to join 'em. While some fans may find it jarring to see Michael Keaton's Batman running around in such a modern setting with a wildly different sense of atmosphere in "The Flash," there was a method to the madness. While making a recent appearance on IndieWire's Filmmaker Toolkit podcast, director Andy Muschietti revealed why he felt so strongly about separating himself from Tim Burton's famous aesthetics. In essence, hewing too close to Burton's style would've given away the entire game. According to Muschietti:
"How do we integrate a movie that is, tonally, so different? One thing I knew for sure was that I wouldn't try to emulate the cinematography of [Burton's movies] because it would be completely tonally different, but also, it would alert audiences that the world in which Barry lands is a Tim Burton movie. If you go 100% in that direction, you would have to have people with hats and stuff, and this blue-blasted backlights that are so particular in his movies. The level of fantasy in the design would be prohibitive in my movie, so I tried to blend the two worlds, and I think we managed to reach a balance where it's still believable that the Michael Keaton Batman exists in this timeline."
Read More: https://www.slashfilm.com/1316378/the-flash-director-didnt-want-to-go-too-far-into-tim-burton-territory/
This would explain why they skipped right over showing Burton's Gotham in this movie.
Seems like we'll have a good deleted scene added to the Bluray!
Muchietti said "The insertion of the [Michael Keaton Bruce Wayne] story set up some questions, which is part of a big question that you ask yourself when you're approaching a movie like this. But it was a fun process. How much of [Tim Burton's movies] do we abide by? How much of the aesthetics, how much of the tone? I was very attracted to the idea of finding Bruce Wayne 30 years later and seeing him and basically fantasizing about what his life would have been 30 years later. The idea of, also, the reason why he quit being Batman was very important to me. There's a deleted scene, and you will see in the extras of the digital version of the DVD where that scene is there. We took it out for pacing reasons, but for me, it's very revealing and very important."
Read More: https://www.slashfilm.com/1316409/the-flash-deleted-scene-why-michael-keatons-batman-quit/"
No white text so be warned.
I've seen the film twice and am ready to talk about it.
I liked it, but I didn't love it. I have two problems with it.
1. The ending. Chalk this up to my knowing too much about the production. I understand why the Clooney ending was used as they want an upbeat ending, but don't want to give false hope for the future of this universe. Not an ideal answer, but an answer. The problem is that it doesn't work for this movie, which even in its final edit feels like it is trying to sell you on having Keaton and Calle stick around. Well, mission accomplished. I want them. The movie scores the sale, intends to make the sale all along, and then bails on it. Now those bright and shining characters who stood out from the pack as audience pleasing are just kinda gone. They're restored, I guess? I'm hoping we get the 2 alternate endings on the Blu-Ray. I know we are getting deleted scenes, but I want those. If they're clean, I'll get my own edit of the film made.
2. The film does entirely too much heavy lifting because it feels like two movies squashed together. Not only does it have the big ambitious multiverse thing that it has to sell, but it also has to do the work of establishing the status quo you expect to find in the first solo picture. We have to remember that thus far we still really don't know much about this version of Barry, so it all feels like Flash 1 and its big ambitious sequel all rolled into one. And when you realize the plot of this film requires a bunch of scenes where Barry has to catch up clueless characters all the time it really bogs the movie down in exposition until it all pays off. Add to that problem number 1 and that the pay off ends up half pregnant because here comes George.
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 19 Jun 2023, 15:23I understand why the Clooney ending was used as they want an upbeat ending, but don't want to give false hope for the future of this universe. Not an ideal answer, but an answer. The problem is that it doesn't work for this movie, which even in its final edit feels like it is trying to sell you on having Keaton and Calle stick around. Well, mission accomplished. I want them. The movie scores the sale, intends to make the sale all along, and then bails on it.
This right here. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Mon, 19 Jun 2023, 14:18Seems like we'll have a good deleted scene added to the Bluray!
Muchietti said "The insertion of the [Michael Keaton Bruce Wayne] story set up some questions, which is part of a big question that you ask yourself when you're approaching a movie like this. But it was a fun process. How much of [Tim Burton's movies] do we abide by? How much of the aesthetics, how much of the tone? I was very attracted to the idea of finding Bruce Wayne 30 years later and seeing him and basically fantasizing about what his life would have been 30 years later. The idea of, also, the reason why he quit being Batman was very important to me. There's a deleted scene, and you will see in the extras of the digital version of the DVD where that scene is there. We took it out for pacing reasons, but for me, it's very revealing and very important."
Read More: https://www.slashfilm.com/1316409/the-flash-deleted-scene-why-michael-keatons-batman-quit/"
This is exactly the type of content we want to see, and fingers crossed it explains just how Gotham became so safe. I completely endorse fan edits that include all the Keaton related deleted scenes - this one and the endings. I think the Batman stuff we see in the film is good. It's the surrounding content that muddies the waters, and there's no denying a box office bomb hurts how the product is perceived.
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Mon, 19 Jun 2023, 14:18Seems like we'll have a good deleted scene added to the Bluray!
Muchietti said "The insertion of the [Michael Keaton Bruce Wayne] story set up some questions, which is part of a big question that you ask yourself when you're approaching a movie like this. But it was a fun process. How much of [Tim Burton's movies] do we abide by? How much of the aesthetics, how much of the tone? I was very attracted to the idea of finding Bruce Wayne 30 years later and seeing him and basically fantasizing about what his life would have been 30 years later. The idea of, also, the reason why he quit being Batman was very important to me. There's a deleted scene, and you will see in the extras of the digital version of the DVD where that scene is there. We took it out for pacing reasons, but for me, it's very revealing and very important."
Read More: https://www.slashfilm.com/1316409/the-flash-deleted-scene-why-michael-keatons-batman-quit/"
We must hold him to this promise.
Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 19 Jun 2023, 15:23I'm hoping we get the 2 alternate endings on the Blu-Ray. I know we are getting deleted scenes, but I want those. If they're clean, I'll get my own edit of the film made.
I'm looking forward to seeing all the fan edits. The Joker hit the nail on the head in his review when he said the movie had been tinkered with too much. It's a classic case of too many cooks spoiling the broth. But I believe there's a decent film in there somewhere, buried beneath the messy narrative and reshoots. Whenever I watch Batman Forever these days I tend to watch the Virtual Workprint fan edit, as it's much better than the theatrical cut. I'm predicting a similar situation with The Flash, where a fan edit will ultimately supplant the theatrical cut as the preferred version among fans.
I lack the skills and software to make an edit of my own, but I've been brainstorming some ideas for one nonetheless. I'd call my fan edit Batman: Flashpoint or Flashpoint: The Dark Knight Cut, and I'd trim it down to about 90-100 minutes so that it centred on Keaton.
I'd create a new opening title sequence in the style of B89 and BR using the Elfman theme. Then the first scene of the movie would be the conversation between Barry and Affleck (I'd delete everything before that, including the big action sequence with Affleck, Gadot and the babies). From there I'd fade to black, and we'd hear the audio of the Flash being attacked in the Speed Force. Then we'd hard cut to the Flash arriving outside his parents' house in the Flashpoint universe.
There's a lot of exposition in the first hour of the movie, so I'd remove most of that, and as much of Ezra's goofiness as possible, and take the audio of Barry explaining what happened and loop it over a montage summarising the excised footage. I'd try to preserve the flashback scenes involving his parents in their entirety, as those scenes are good and essential for establishing the Flashpoint premise.
My goal would be to condense the first hour of the movie into about 20-30 minutes and get the viewer to stately Wayne Manor much earlier. I'd then restore as many of Keaton's deleted scenes as possible while cutting out as many of Ezra's scenes. I'd want to restore the deleted cameos featuring Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman, Romero's Joker and Meredith's Penguin, and obviously restore the ending with Keaton, Calle and Cavill.
Something along these lines would result in a decent 100-minute Batman movie. I hope someone more talented than myself will create something like this.
Silver's idea for a 100 minute Batman movie with Keats sounds good to me. Certainly would make the film more rewatchable at home, and overall less inclined to have to fast forward thru all the Miller exposition most of the time.
Quote from: KeatonisBatman on Tue, 20 Jun 2023, 05:44Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 19 Jun 2023, 15:23I understand why the Clooney ending was used as they want an upbeat ending, but don't want to give false hope for the future of this universe. Not an ideal answer, but an answer. The problem is that it doesn't work for this movie, which even in its final edit feels like it is trying to sell you on having Keaton and Calle stick around. Well, mission accomplished. I want them. The movie scores the sale, intends to make the sale all along, and then bails on it.
This right here. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Indeed. I'm quoting, because this needs to be emphasized recurrently. Keaton's Batman, and Calle's Supergirl sticking around was the original intended ending (from what I've gathered from reviews online, both of them were the MVP's with this film), thus the duo were conceived to be included in at least two different endings. Prior to Gunn's nonplus Clooney decision. Which pretty much concludes the previous proceedings and story narrative flippantly, than anything one would describe remotely suitable.
"But we didn't want to promise something that we're not going to follow up on!!!!"HAHAHAHA!!!!
Yeah, like DCEU endings/stingers that are not followed up on is some unique and brand new practice! That's business as usual at this point, and would've had a inconsequential impact on something like Gunn's "Superman Legacy" if that's what he's worried about.
I'll be 100% honest. DC has been a mess since Batman V Superman and everyone would find a reason to complain no matter what the ending. There would have been an outcry over all 3 endings. I think it was easier to be like "We got clooney for this and thats it".
This is the same internet that hated Cavil until he was fired (and the fact he was in an ending ads credit to The Rock ruinined it). DC is sadly screwed no matter what they do. The internet hated Batgirl till it was canceled. I've been through very much the same that the entire X-men saga (since X3) has gone through. Fox didnt make things any better either but I enjoyed the ride while it lasted and am thankful we're getting a keaton-esque finally for the 2000s X-men.
In the end, I take it as a win cause we got Keaton back, Snyder cut is cannon, I got alot of films I like (MOS, BVS, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, ZSJL, Flash)
I am more than pleased. If the future movies suck, I have the ones I like to fall back on.
The rest of the film was a fun popcorn flick while the Keaton scenes were magic recaptured.
I wasn't a huge fan of the disheveled hermit status, but it was played way better than Luke Skywalker (who I think has a lot of parallels). It was depressing, but not overly so. Batman retired because the world didn't need him anymore, and it's not like he left Gotham as a dystopia overrun by crime.
Wayne Manor being a rundown mess was a bit sad to see, but it's more a statement on Alfred. I feel like his loss being thoroughly felt without outright commenting on his death was a beautiful touch.
I do like the spontaneity in which he returns to Batman. This older man has been out of practice for years, and then just sinks back into the role immediately and starts kicking ass. This is very much like Burton's Batman where there isn't an overly drawn out explanation for why Batman can do certain things; he just does. Joker launches an aerial threat? Batman has a plane. I love the directness; Nolan would probably bring the film to a halt to explain the backstory of why Batman has a plane and tease its forthcoming. But I digress.
I was initially dreading that they'd fall into cliche and kill off the elder hero. While that technically happened, I'm not too upset by the execution. They gave him a heroic death(s) where he didn't stop fighting until the very end. Most importantly, this isn't THE Batman from that universe proper. Merely a character that shares the same history that was placed into this diverging timeline.
Speaking of, his history is bit confusing at times. We have plenty of references to the first movie (obviously), but not too many to Returns. Though the suits are evidence that it's included. No Forever and Batman & Robin, though. Those films reference Metropolis and Superman, which is made explicitly clear doesn't exist in this Batman's world.
This also excludes the Batman '89 comic, which DC confirms takes place in the same continuity as Superman '78. Normally one wouldn't include the unmade Nic Cage Superman, but the events of that film have been confirmed to exist, which would put it in Burton/Schumacher's universe.
I admittedly aren't too knowledgeable about the Arrowverse take on the multiverse offhand, however I believe their 89 universe had a Batman who was still active at the time this film would have taken place, so that's seemingly discounted as well.
Has anyone who's read the latest DC crisis with Keaton in it been able to fit that in with any recent projects?
Anyways, the Keaton parts were great. There wasn't much arc, nor did there need to be as a supporting character. I kind of knew his part wasn't going to be as big as the trailers made it out to be, but I still enjoyed it. Seeing way more of Wayne Manor play a role in the film was a treat.
The action scenes were seemingly improved from the trailers. I miss the slight stiffness and editing style of the original, but those are nitpicks/nostalgia talking. As messed up as it is, it was great when Flash got shot in the leg and Batman had to take charge of the rescue mission. He honestly works well in a team setting onscreen.
Quote from: Slash Man on Thu, 22 Jun 2023, 23:30Speaking of, his history is bit confusing at times. We have plenty of references to the first movie (obviously), but not too many to Returns. Though the suits are evidence that it's included. No Forever and Batman & Robin, though. Those films reference Metropolis and Superman, which is made explicitly clear doesn't exist in this Batman's world.
That's a good point. Keaton's ignorance of Superman's existence is another clue that the Burton and Schumacher Batmen are two different characters.
Quote from: Slash Man on Thu, 22 Jun 2023, 23:30This also excludes the Batman '89 comic, which DC confirms takes place in the same continuity as Superman '78. Normally one wouldn't include the unmade Nic Cage Superman, but the events of that film have been confirmed to exist, which would put it in Burton/Schumacher's universe.
I admittedly aren't too knowledgeable about the Arrowverse take on the multiverse offhand, however I believe their 89 universe had a Batman who was still active at the time this film would have taken place, so that's seemingly discounted as well.
I've been browsing the DC Wiki to see how its editors are categorising the different timelines, and the results are interesting. Presently they still have a page for the Burtonverse Batman that treats the entire Burton-Schumacher series as existing in one universe. This page also documents the events of the Batman '89 comic while acknowledging they ignore the Schumacher movies.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(Burtonverse)
This page badly needs tidying up. It's debateable whether the Burton and Schumacher Batmen should be split into two different articles, but the Earth 789 Batman should definitely have a separate page. It makes no sense for his history to be documented in the same article as the Schumacher Batman when their stories directly contradict one another.
The DC Wiki doesn't have a separate page for the Earth 789 Batman at the moment, but there is a separate page for the Earth 789 universe as a whole. The Batman references all link back to the Burtonverse page.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Earth_789
There's a separate page for the DCEU Flashpoint Batman played by Keaton. But in the character history section, it links to the Burtonverse Batman page.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(DC_Extended_Universe:_Flashpoint)
According to the DCEU Flashpoint page, Batman '89, Batman Returns and The Flash are part of that reality's canon. It also lists the Batman '89 comic as being part of that canon, even though there's no evidence to support this in The Flash. If the comic was canonical, wouldn't there have been a reference to the Drake Winston Robin? Wouldn't the batsuit from the comic have been included in the vault with the other costumes? To my mind, the Batman '89 comic is only canonical in the Earth 789 universe.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/DC_Extended_Universe:_Flashpoint
There's also a separate page for the Arrowverse Earth-89 Batman from Crisis on Infinite Earths (2019). Again, the character history section links to the Burtonverse page. The Arrowverse Earth-89 timeline only seems to acknowledge Batman '89 and Crisis on Infinite Earths. In this universe the Joker somehow returned from the dead and was captured by Batman in 2019.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(Arrowverse:_Earth-89)
At the moment there also doesn't seem to be a page for the Bruce Wayne Clooney played in the final scene of The Flash. Obviously it was meant to be the Schumacherverse Bruce, but I'm guessing the DC Wiki editors will eventually create a separate page for him. I don't know what the rebooted post-Flashpoint DCEU timeline is called, but thanks to that cameo Clooney is now the only Batman existing in that reality.
Since they're rebooting the whole thing anyway, I wish they'd just left in the original ending and kept Keaton's two scenes in Aquaman II. I've no interest in seeing Aquaman II, but I would've paid to see it if Keaton's scenes had been preserved.
The B89 comic followed the general template of what a third Burton film could've included, but there's no indication at all from my point of view that The Flash adheres to any of it. And that's good, because it was underwhelming.
The Christopher Reeve Easter eggs rule it out completely because Flash Keaton rightly has no idea who Superman is. The immediate events after BR (the villains he fought, etc) remain up to our own imaginations in my book.
But I'm accepting the retirement phase and his transformation into The Big LebowKeat. Come to think of it I wouldn't call him depressed in the way Bale was. But the core trait they share is that Batman gives them purpose and drive. Without Batman, I guess Keaton still seems happy enough though. He's listening to some pretty funky music and painting. But he lives sloppily, and that too makes sense for a silver spoon boy who never had to concern himself with domestic duties.
Watched my second screening and noticed that the cowl Young Barry seems to paint, looks like an 89 cowl but when he wears it, its clearly a returns one. When he rips the neck off, its also ripped in a similar pattern to when Keaton rips it in Returns. Young Barry also gets his face scratched like Keaton does in Returns.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 23 Jun 2023, 12:23The B89 comic followed the general template of what a third Burton film could've included, but there's no indication at all from my point of view that The Flash adheres to any of it. And that's good, because it was underwhelming.
I'm fine with it for that reason, and because they can literally make any changes in this alternate timeline. Who knows that effect all the DCEU characters had on Burton's world?
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 23 Jun 2023, 12:23But I'm accepting the retirement phase and his transformation into The Big LebowKeat. Come to think of it I wouldn't call him depressed in the way Bale was. But the core trait they share is that Batman gives them purpose and drive. Without Batman, I guess Keaton still seems happy enough though. He's listening to some pretty funky music and painting. But he lives sloppily, and that too makes sense for a silver spoon boy who never had to concern himself with domestic duties.
True, I do prefer it to Bale's sad state at the start of DKR. Though those are two equally realistic responses to losing your motivation. There's also the meta aspect to a real life time jump versus an in-universe time jump.
If you want to split hairs, Bruce has shown in the first film that he has more than enough money for staff to upkeep the premises - Alfred couldn't have been the one in charge of all the landscaping. Though he definitely was the cook, and it was nice to see Bruce now take pride in preparing a home-cooked meal by himself.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 23 Jun 2023, 11:42According to the DCEU Flashpoint page, Batman '89, Batman Returns and The Flash are part of that reality's canon. It also lists the Batman '89 comic as being part of that canon, even though there's no evidence to support this in The Flash. If the comic was canonical, wouldn't there have been a reference to the Drake Winston Robin? Wouldn't the batsuit from the comic have been included in the vault with the other costumes? To my mind, the Batman '89 comic is only canonical in the Earth 789 universe.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/DC_Extended_Universe:_Flashpoint
I believe, and as you've stated before in the past, Hamm's Earth 789 stuff is no more
canonical to Keaton's Batman film appearances, than that of the short-lived 1989-1991 Batman newspaper strip. These being just examples of off shoots that stem from the prime Burtonverse events.
QuoteThere's also a separate page for the Arrowverse Earth-89 Batman from Crisis on Infinite Earths (2019). Again, the character history section links to the Burtonverse page. The Arrowverse Earth-89 timeline only seems to acknowledge Batman '89 and Crisis on Infinite Earths. In this universe the Joker somehow returned from the dead and was captured by Batman in 2019.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(Arrowverse:_Earth-89)
At the moment there also doesn't seem to be a page for the Bruce Wayne Clooney played in the final scene of The Flash. Obviously it was meant to be the Schumacherverse Bruce, but I'm guessing the DC Wiki editors will eventually create a separate page for him. I don't know what the rebooted post-Flashpoint DCEU timeline is called, but thanks to that cameo Clooney is now the only Batman existing in that reality.
I guess someone could
try and head cannon all this into one singular timeline, but it would get very convoluted, pretty quickly. Rather than attempt to DC "Linearverse" all this, I'm perfectly OK with variant Earths/Timelines that off shoot from the prime Burtonverse. It's a more clean approach, and shouldn't demean or belittle the variants of the central Burtonverse continuity, but recognizing that, hey, these Burtonverse continuities can be independent from one another.
QuoteSince they're rebooting the whole thing anyway, I wish they'd just left in the original ending and kept Keaton's two scenes in Aquaman II. I've no interest in seeing Aquaman II, but I would've paid to see it if Keaton's scenes had been preserved.
Wholeheartedly agree.
Quote from: Slash Man on Sat, 24 Jun 2023, 02:55True, I do prefer it to Bale's sad state at the start of DKR. Though those are two equally realistic responses to losing your motivation. There's also the meta aspect to a real life time jump versus an in-universe time jump.
Rises Bale had the weight of Rachel's death on his mind which made his existence more miserable. Gough died, and we don't know if anything else major happened to hurt Bruce's soul. But if it was just Alfred that at least would've been a natural passing (I'm assuming it was) and one he knew was coming eventually. Both scenarios work for their respective movies. When I think about Rises in general my appreciation of its character work and themes is there - I think it's a fine movie that blasts most CBMs out of the water.
Quote from: Slash Man on Sat, 24 Jun 2023, 02:55If you want to split hairs, Bruce has shown in the first film that he has more than enough money for staff to upkeep the premises - Alfred couldn't have been the one in charge of all the landscaping. Thought he definitely was the cook, and it was nice to see Bruce now take pride in preparing a home-cooked meal by himself.
The fog around the Manor was an excellent visual choice, and got across the idea this place is different to any other place in the city. Fog is obviously a real thing but IMO it's shrouded around this one building whereas it's probably normal conditions everywhere else. That lends the supernatural, haunted house element.
Off topic to anything else we were discussing.
But while it was great seeing Keaton come back and fly the Batwing, I am a tiny bit disappointed that he never drove around in the Batmobile.
It's not a big deal. But considering how that car is such an iconic part of the Burton movies, it would've been nice to watch Keaton rev it up one more time.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 24 Jun 2023, 23:30Off topic to anything else we were discussing.
But while it was great seeing Keaton come back and fly the Batwing, I am a tiny bit disappointed that he never drove around in the Batmobile.
It's not a big deal. But considering how that car is such an iconic part of the Burton movies, it would've been nice to watch Keaton rev it up one more time.
Evidently, it was in the cards going forward. Nevertheless, given the circumstances with everything surrounding this movie and plans going forward, yeah, it would have been fun and now a
sorely missed opportunity.
At least seeing it once again was cool. That Batmobile is a thing of beauty.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 24 Jun 2023, 23:30But while it was great seeing Keaton come back and fly the Batwing, I am a tiny bit disappointed that he never drove around in the Batmobile.
I knew for a long time the Batwing was the only vehicle he used in the movie. Which made one of the official posters, which depicted Batman standing next to the Batmobile, all the more puzzling to me. I don't know how many people actually saw that poster outside of fans like us, but it nonetheless created a false expectation that was never going to be met.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 24 Jun 2023, 23:30But while it was great seeing Keaton come back and fly the Batwing, I am a tiny bit disappointed that he never drove around in the Batmobile.
Same. ALthough, I didn't realize it until the movie was over, then I went, hey waitaminute--! ;D
Here's a pre-visualisation video of the action scenes in The Flash. It includes behind-the-scenes footage showing the choreography of Batman's silo fight against the Russian soldiers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOvIBolsVqQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkMBEcbmQeg
Picking up on something The Dark Knight posted in another thread, I wonder how Keaton feels about how The Flash turned out. He walked away from Batman Forever because he didn't like the lighter direction the franchise was heading in and because he thought the filmmakers should be focusing more closely on the central character, as Batman Begins eventually did (and/or because the studio refused his demand for more money). But was The Flash really any better? Is it a superior film to Forever? Is its treatment of Bruce Wayne as a character any more insightful?
We have to take into account that when Keaton signed on to make The Flash it was with the understanding he'd reprise the role in multiple films. Perhaps he would have got to explore more sides of the character, and revisit his origins, in some of those other movies. There's still a possibility that could happen, if the Batman Beyond movie ever gets off the ground (the success or failure of Beetlejuice II might be a determining factor in that). But if Keaton's time as Batman has ended with The Flash, do you think he's glad he made it? Or will he feel as though he dodged one bullet in 1995 only to be hit by a remarkably similar bullet in 2023?
Obviously he's in a different place career-wise than he was in 1995. He was extremely lucky to get the role of Batman back in the eighties, and luckier still to get the chance to reprise it in his sixties. No one could've predicted that would happen. Maybe he was just grateful that so many fans wanted him to return and decided to make the most of it. But given that Keaton's expressed admiration for the more serious tone of the Nolan films, I wonder how happy he is with how goofy The Flash turned out.
Between the box office failure of The Flash and the cancellation of Batgirl, it's hard to put a positive spin on Keaton's return. I'm glad he came back and I enjoyed his scenes in The Flash. But from an objective standpoint, his big return has hardly been a roaring success. And that's to say nothing of the Batman '89 comic, which IMO was far worse than The Flash. I'm glad Keaton's Batman has returned, but I'm still waiting for that killer film that can rank alongside B89 and BR. I'm hoping Burton will knock it out of the park with Beetlejuice II, and that the studio will give him creative carte blanche to make Batman Beyond and conclude his Batman trilogy. If that happens, and the movie lives up to our expectations, then the wait will have been worth it.
But if Bat-Keaton's story ends with The Flash, will Keaton himself be satisfied? What does everyone else think? Are you, as fans, glad that he returned or would you rather he'd left it at Batman Returns? I wish The Flash had been a better movie, but I'm still grateful to have one more Keaton Batman flick, even though it is clearly inferior to his previous two. There are aspects of Batman's portrayal in the new movie that I don't like – such as the silly bit where he's trying to intimidate the Russian guy by stamping his foot – but I'm still happy with 80-90% of Batman's scenes in The Flash.
And I'm still hopeful we'll get at least one more movie with his Batman to redeem the disappointments of the Batman '89 comic and The Flash. I'm also hoping for a satisfying fan edit of The Flash. But even if those things don't happen, I'm not sorry Keaton returned. Though I wonder if Keaton himself might be. I suppose it all depends on whether or not The Flash is the final chapter, or merely the precursor to something better.
How does everyone else feel now the dust's started to settle?
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 2 Jul 2023, 16:37How does everyone else feel now the dust's started to settle?
In the end, this is not how I would've wanted Keaton to return. Yes, swapping in Grant Gustin (or any other actor) in Miller's place would address a lot of my problems with TF. Nuff said.
It looks to me like TF is the end of the line for Keaton as Batman. We got nostalgia, winks to unseen history between BR and TF, plus some fun action scenes. Keaton repeated some of his iconic lines and looked great in the Batsuit. So, I've got very few criticisms there.
For Keaton personally, I got the idea that he never actually wanted to leave the character in the first place. Or at least, he would've wanted to do another few movies for sure. I can see where the prospect of revisiting the character, even if it's to officially close the book, was appealing.
From a career standpoint, his star was already on the rise again before he came back to Batman. I think he relished coming back and putting his stamp back onto the character.
But I would guess that he also came back for the money. I don't know how much he was paid for TF and the other stuff he did. But I'm thinking it's MORE than enough to retire and ride off into the sunset.
Maybe I'm wrong. But I think Keaton might be drying his eyes with hundred dollar bills that his return to Batman is stillborn, and will likely go down in infamy.
On a selfish level, back in 2018, I believed Keaton had finished his run as Batman and was never coming back. But we got one last outing with him in the role. There were times when I felt my eyes well up in the theater. It was a very emotional thing to see him back in action.
In the end, I might've wanted another solo Keaton Batman film. But I'm happy with what we got.
it would've been nice to see him drive the og Batmobile one final time tho.
Listening to him talk about Shumacher questioning every idea he had "why does it have to be so dark?" and listening to Andy Muschietti talk about how he basically gave Keaton an open book to write says all it does for me.
Perhaps Keaton would have done Forever if he had more say in his character. I think comedy and darkness levels of the Flash and Batman Forever are similar.
I am pretty sure Keaton's feelings about "The Flash" very possibly being his final outing in playing Batman, are conflicted. On one hand, it's fair to say that Keaton was handsomely compensated for returning to the part, however I can't imagine that he finds the final product of the film to be personally or creatively satisfying given all the changes and adjustments the film endured over it's unique production, in addition to his continued appearances being effectively nipped in the bud thanks to yet another change in course.
I agree that in light of seeing Keaton return as Batman in "The Flash", his performance did not come across as if he was simply phoning it in for a payday, but rather indicative that he does continue to have a personal affinity for the character after all these years. Which was nice to see, and I think, has been teased over the more recent years by Keaton himself given the publicly light hearted, "I'm Batman!" comments made at a University commencement speech, and revealing he would recite the line towards Tom Holland during making "Spider-Man: Homecoming". I remember thinking at the time, back when "Birdman" came out, that this would probably be about as close as we would see Keaton back in the batsuit. I'm glad that didn't turn out to be the case, even if the overall final product wasn't no where near ideal in returning such a iconic version of Batman to the silver screens.
Concerning "Batman Forever", I can envision Keaton being rather Ok in moving on to other roles following being informed that Burton wasn't returning to the director's chair. His 'dance partner', so to speak, would be missing, and being able to have the freedom to entertain other films/offers during this era would be rather resonant in how Keats shifted away from comedy films, and went forth in more dramatic roles/films during the late 1980s/early 1990s. Thus breaking the perception of some that he was just a comedic actor. Given Keaton's comments in interviews, most notably to me his interview segments in the 2005 Special Editions of B89 and BR, being primarily known as simply "Batman" wasn't something of particular interest to him at the time. However, as the saying goes, absence can make the heart grow fonder, and I think his affection for the character publicly revealed itself in more recent years.
Quote from: eledoremassis02 on Sun, 2 Jul 2023, 18:17Listening to him talk about Shumacher questioning every idea he had "why does it have to be so dark?" and listening to Andy Muschietti talk about how he basically gave Keaton an open book to write says all it does for me.
Perhaps Keaton would have done Forever if he had more say in his character. I think comedy and darkness levels of the Flash and Batman Forever are similar.
I'm not going to pretend here. The prospect of Keaton coming back in any capacity, especially when it was just an idea, was never going to be rejected by me. It's something I wanted to see. From that perspective I'm glad The Flash's concept was followed through with. We can at least die knowing he did suit up again, even if the circumstances weren't ideal. The sequence with Keaton talking about his parents made it all worthwhile to me, and bits and pieces inside the Russian base. But before this his only red mark had been the McDonald's controversy and Returns suitability for children.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 3 Jul 2023, 10:24The sequence with Keaton talking about his parents made it all worthwhile to me, and bits and pieces inside the Russian base.
Same! When he talked about his parents I went, oh that's the good stuff!
This shot here is what I feel like a Tim Burton Superman/girl could look like. I know he was doing Superman in the late 90s, but thats when he started doing more "generic-ish" films.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zX8z0WcC/vlcsnap-2023-07-18-20h05m07s408.png)
I wasn't sure where to post this, but WB just uploaded a featurette on Keaton's return as Batman. I guess Keaton finally got the Nicholson treatment in the sense that he seemingly did zero interviews for this film.
Quote from: The Joker on Sat, 24 Jun 2023, 14:25I guess someone could try and head cannon all this into one singular timeline, but it would get very convoluted, pretty quickly. Rather than attempt to DC "Linearverse" all this, I'm perfectly OK with variant Earths/Timelines that off shoot from the prime Burtonverse. It's a more clean approach, and shouldn't demean or belittle the variants of the central Burtonverse continuity, but recognizing that, hey, these Burtonverse continuities can be independent from one another.
At the moment, we're looking at at least two main universes, but I think we can consolidate anything else into those two ('89 Comic or Schumacher). The Flash is a hodgepodge of different universes that references '89 and Returns, but not vice-versa. It was created and shut down during the course of the film.
Watching Casshern and always wanted to see a Flash fightscene done like this. Can say I kinda did now!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAGptaNCNnc
Saw this on X, and thought it was worth posting since it deals with the many multiverse and timelines that encompasses the Burton/Schumacher films.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4WXvDjacAAEHYq?format=jpg&name=large)
Nice, that does lay things out nicely. It gets a little more convoluted once you factor in Superman films. In the Batman '89 comic timeline, it's combined with the Superman '78 comic timeline, which includes the first two Superman movies. The Burton/Shumacher timeline would include the Nic Cage Superman film, ever since that was canonized.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rswQGcfc70
Quote from: Slash Man on Sun, 27 Aug 2023, 00:45Nice, that does lay things out nicely. It gets a little more convoluted once you factor in Superman films. In the Batman '89 comic timeline, it's combined with the Superman '78 comic timeline, which includes the first two Superman movies. The Burton/Shumacher timeline would include the Nic Cage Superman film, ever since that was canonized.
My preferred timeline would include bits and pieces from the B89 comic and The Flash. That means no Reeve Superman or even Cage, but yes to Wayans Robin and Billy Dee Two-Face. But the story involving them would be different, because I don't like what the comic depicted. I'm comfortable with how Keaton ends up prior to the two Barry Allens arriving (which wouldn't even happen once the Frankenstein timeline gets erased). That material (along with the other batsuits) give highlights of what happened with Keaton's career even though the exact detail was never depicted. I rather like the idea he's safe at home, and still completely physically able to suit up again if required.