BMOTP Is The True Sequel To Batman Returns.

[THE BAT-MAN]

I know that this could cause some controversy, but I have been thinking alot of what fans have been saying regarding Batman Forever's departure from Batman Returns.

Now to be fair,  Batman Forever is the third live action Batman film.  However, it would be the fourth live action batman film if you included  1966's Batman: The Movie, but that's beside the point.

The point is Batman Mask of the Phantasm came first.  It was released in theaters on christmas in 1993.  Whereas Batman Forever was released in the summer of 1995.

Now I know that the events of Mask of the phantasm doesn't take place after the Burton films.  However, it was greatly inspired by them and it was still the next installment of Batman's Franchise.  Meaning that it is indeed a sequel just not a sequel of continuity.  Heck!  Even Batman Forever isn't really a sequel to Batman Returns.  Warner Bros. actually declared that Forever was suppose to be a revamp.  It was Mask of the Phantasm that actually continued the vein of Tim Burton's films as well as showing audiences the balance of dark serious themes and absurd humor. 

There's more that I can discuss regarding the inspiration that Mask of the Phantasm took from Burton,  but I will save that for another time.  

[johnnygobbs]

There's more that I can discuss regarding the inspiration that Mask of the Phantasm took from Burton,  but I will save that for another time. [/color]  

I look forward to it, but in the meantime I entirely echo your sentiments regarding BMOTP being the true sequel to Batman Returns.

[Seantastic]

Mask Of The Phantasm is one of my favourate Batman films, just great, really, just an amazing story, and feel to it, I love it so much.  And I agree that it does kinda come from the same vein of Returns and 89

[THE BAT-MAN]

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who feels that Batman: Mask Of The Phantasm is the true sequel to Tim Burton's films.  As I had stated earlier, there's more that I can discuss regarding the inspiration I believe Mask Of The Phantasm took from Burton, but before I begin, I just want to make it very clear that what I am about to discuss with you is purely my own opinion.  With that said, I hope that you enjoy this discussion and feel free to comment.

In 1992,  Tim Burton's Batman films were all the rage.  They were bold, daring  and broke new ground for The Dark Knight.  It was no suprise that Warner Bros. wanted to produce an animated cartoon series that would continue in the vein of Burton's films.  According to The Warner Bros. Animation Art Book.   When development for The Batman Animated Series began, Tim Burton served as the series project consultant, though he was uncredited. 

With the success of the animated series first season.  Warner Bros. green lighted the production to the animated feature film Batman: Mask Of The Phantasm.  The story was written by Alan Burnett and aided by Paul Dini, Martin Pasko, and Michael Reaves. 

I firmly believe that Batman: Mask of the Phantasm was more in spirit to the burton films than it was to the actual series itself and here's why:

I know that this can all be just a coincidence and that the producers, writers, and creators would more than likely deny what I am about to suggest.  So let it be known that this is just my opinion.

DRAWING INSPIRATION:

The Joker

Alan Burnett as well as the other collaborating writers, stated that they wanted to be very careful on how the Joker was to be used in the film, because they didn't want to connect the character to Tim Burton's Batman (1989) film.  However, we know that in the animated series Joker was given the name Jack Napier.  Whether it was used as an alias or not.  We also know that it was Tim Burton's take on the Joker that inspired the gangster origin story.  The Joker in BMOTP is more violent and more dark humored than the way he is originally portrayed in the actual animated series.  In fact,  he is an animated reflection of Nicholson's Joker.  They both were gangsters before they were transformed into The Clown Prince Of Crime.  Having the Joker be the killer of Bruce's parents in order to make the hero/villain relationship more personal in the Burton film, caused some controversy among fans of the comicbooks.  Again, it could be just a coincidence, but it seems like the writers were purposely trying to address this issue in Mask Of The Phantasm.  By  having the pre Joker gangster be the killer of Andrea's Father.  The result of this causes the creation of the masked vigilante known as The Phantasm as well as furthering Bruce's destiny as Gotham's Dark Knight.  Ironicially, The Phantasm shares the origin story of Tim Burton's Batman with the exception that both characters were bystanding victims of a pre Joker gangster.  Another irony is that both Jokers supposedly die at the end.

The Phantasm

What can I say?  The Phantasm truely looks like a character that would be in a Tim Burton film.  The whole Ghost of Christmas Future meets The Grim Reaper with a gothic design just screams Burton especially, the whole graveyard scene.  Even though the creators of The Phantasm were not influenced by Burton in any way, shape, or form.  It still seemed to compliment his sense of style, film wise.  As mentioned in another post topic (See Mask Of The Phantasm vs Returns Thread).  The character of Andrea Beaumont/The Phantasm seemed to have shared similar characteristics with Tim Burton's Selina Kyle/Catwoman from Batman Returns.  Both characters are the main love interest of Bruce Wayne/Batman.  They have secret identities, and experienced tragedies.  Their main goal is revenge.  In the finale they both fight without masks.  They both exact their vengeance on their creators.  They both lose Bruce wayne and Batman.  They both leave something for Bruce to remember them by,  Andrea left a locket, Selina left her cat.  They both were involved in framing Batman.  Again, in some bizzarre form or another they seemed to be a reflection of eachother.

Batman

The character of Batman in MOTP really seemed to have been based on both Batman Year One and the Burton films.  In a wierd sense I felt like we were dealing with a different type of Batman than the one we know from BTAS much like I described about the Joker.  I mean sure this Batman doesn't kill unlike Burtons.  However, he was willing to go all the way for Andrea.  Remember, the scene with the Joker where he tries to escape with the rocket pack Joker yells "Your crazy! I'm your only chance to get out of here! Let me go or we'll both die!" and Batman replies "Whatever It Takes."  Other than the obvious influences that were taken from Batman Year One.  I still felt that there were similarities between this Batman and Burton's.  Story wise it still goes back to both Tim Burton's and Sam Hamm's concept for the first film.  Which was, Batman is a man who starts out insane and what if Bruce meets a girl and he starts to go sane.  Realizing that he could have a normal life and be happy.  Both Batman (1989) and BMOTP explore this concept perfectly.  Another similarity,  is both Batman and Joker in the final fight are bleeding.  In the 1989 film Joker spit's out with a bleeding mouth his fasle teeth and in BMOTP Batman hits Joker hard enough  for him to break a tooth.  Again, theres more similarities to Burton's sequel, from Batman Returns the way Keaton's Batman tries to reach out to Selina. It's pratically done the same way in BMOTP.  When Batman tries to reach out to Andrea.  Both Batmen are framed for crimes they didn't commit.  Both films have a police pursuit chase scene.  What I find really interesting is the explosion scene at the end.  In Batman Returns, the explosion scene takes place in a abadoned Zoo and we see a giant globe explode.  Batman takes cover in Peguins Lair located in the sewers.  In BMOTP, the explosion takes place in Gotham's World Fair again we see a giant globe explode.  Batman falls beneath Gotham's sewers and is saved.  Both films have a tragic ending.  Niether film truly explains how Batman cleared his name.  The Batsignal just lights up and we assume Batman has gain the trust of Gotham.

Music

All I can say is pure genius.  Shirley Walker truly captured the dark gothic tone of Batman and his world with her Noirish Operatic score.  As well as giving homage to Batman composer Danny Elfman, even though his theme was not neccessarily used in the film.  The formula for creating the music was greatly inspired by him.

Gotham

I'll keep this simple.  It continues the vein of both Burton's films as well as BTAS.

Theres probably more things that I can share, but for right now this is all I want to say.  Anyway, I hope this has been enlightening for you.      
 



 

[Paul (ral)]

is the phantasm inspired by the villian in Batman: Year Two? Its been a while since i read it so I can't remember?

[THE BAT-MAN]

is the phantasm inspired by the villian in Batman: Year Two? Its been a while since i read it so I can't remember?

Yes,  I believe that The Phantasm character was inspired by Mike Barr's  Reaper villain in Batman: Year Two, both in design and story.

  However, as I mentioned before.  I still feel that film wise, Andrea Beaumont/The Phantasm shared alot of similarities to Tim Burton's Selina Kyle/Catwoman.

[The Dark Knight]

I agree it's the spiritual successor to Returns - especially with the hollow ending, but you could have it as the Burtonverse's origin story.

Naturally, the story would have to be tweaked, but I don't think it would sacrifice the core essence.

Say, start with the flashbacks - Bruce's vow and then move onto the Phantasm killings where Batman shows up.

Like the film, have Batman blamed for mob murders - Johnny Gobbs anyone?, but not cleared, leading into the opening frame of Batman (1989).

Pre-accident Napier is still shown, but of course he never transforms into The Joker.

A live action film with Keaton and Nicholson would have seriously brought down the house.

[Grissom]

"A live action film with Keaton and Nicholson would have seriously brought down the house."

Totally agreed.

[Seantastic]

If Keaton and Nicholson would have worked on thsi film in a Live Action format, I think I would jizz, lol

[The Dark Knight]

"A live action film with Keaton and Nicholson would have seriously brought down the house."

Totally agreed.

Yep. And Keaton did express interest in doing a Year One type film for his third.