Batman-Online.com

Let the rumor mill continue:

QuoteOscar winner Jared Leto is circling a key role in David Ayer's "Suicide Squad" that could prove to be The Joker, an individual familiar with the Warner Bros. project has told TheWrap.

Warner Bros. had no comment, while a representative for Leto did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Ryan Gosling was initially sought to play The Joker but he was unwilling to sign a deal with options for multiple movies, according to one insider.

While The Joker did not appear in Justin Marks' original draft of the screenplay, Ayer is expected to rewrite the script and that revision is rumored to include The Joker. After all, the studio would be hard-pressed to ignore Batman's arch-enemy. If Warners has no plans to include the character in some capacity in "Suicide Squad" or "Justice League," what movie is it waiting for?

Keep in mind that the reliable comic book movie scoopers at Latino Review recently reported that Cara Delevingne is being sought to play Harley Quinn, and when that character is around, The Joker is usually nearby. Delevingne tweeted a picture of Harley Quinn several weeks before speculation first started.

http://www.thewrap.com/jared-leto-eyed-to-play-the-joker-in-wbs-suicide-squad-exclusive/

If this is true, it's possible we'll first see Joker and Harley in Suicide Squad before facing off against Affleck's Batman in a future Bat movie.

Although I prefer Gosling overall, I think Leto is a better choice for The Joker.  I can't imagine Gosling's version differing that much from Heath Ledger's, whereas I can see Leto going for a creepier, more sinister vibe than either Gosling or Ledger

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Sat,  8 Nov  2014, 01:12
Although I prefer Gosling overall, I think Leto is a better choice for The Joker.  I can't imagine Gosling's version differing that much from Heath Ledger's, whereas I can see Leto going for a creepier, more sinister vibe than either Gosling or Ledger

Interesting. I'm only familiar with Jared Leto in American Psycho, where Patrick Bateman described to him what makes Huey Lewis & The News so great before hacking him to death with an axe. Are there any movies with Jared Leto do you recommend where he can play this kind of role?

I'd be excited for the Joker's return on screen, as long as he doesn't look like an emo-goth with Glasgow smiles or looks like Leatherface i.e. New 52.  >:(

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat,  8 Nov  2014, 01:36

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Sat,  8 Nov  2014, 01:12
Although I prefer Gosling overall, I think Leto is a better choice for The Joker.  I can't imagine Gosling's version differing that much from Heath Ledger's, whereas I can see Leto going for a creepier, more sinister vibe than either Gosling or Ledger

Interesting. I'm only familiar with Jared Leto in American Psycho, where Patrick Bateman described to him what makes Huey Lewis & The News so great before hacking him to death with an axe. Are there any movies with Jared Leto do you recommend where he can play this kind of role?

I'd be excited for the Joker's return on screen, as long as he doesn't look like an emo-goth with Glasgow smiles or looks like Leatherface i.e. New 52.  >:(

I'm afraid to say I only really know Leto from the old TV show "My So Called Life" where he played a spaced-out teenage heartthrob.  I've seen 'Fight Club', 'Requiem for a Dream' and 'Panic Room' all good films but to be perfectly honest he doesn't really stand out in any of them.  However, I do hear he gave a great performance in 'Dallas Buyers Club' for which he won an Oscar.

But he seems a lot more low-key than Gosling.

And I could see him playing a young, punky looking Joker on the basis of the following pic:

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F2%2F2f%2FFlickr_-_nicogenin_-_66%25C3%25A8me_Festival_de_Venise_%2528Mostra%2529_-_Jared_Leto_%252814%2529.jpg%2F640px-Flickr_-_nicogenin_-_66%25C3%25A8me_Festival_de_Venise_%2528Mostra%2529_-_Jared_Leto_%252814%2529.jpg&hash=68fa728808a54ba48beb00a08d7384b9bade6006)

After having watched, Dallas Buyers Club, I have faith Leto can pull off playing the Joker. That guy was incredible in that film.

Really can't see Ryan Gosling in the part. Nothing really against him, since I don't mind him, and liked Drive, but I just can't see it. Don't believe the part really suits him. At all. Could see him as Deadshot more than I can as the Joker.

Rafael Albuquerque's posted his variant cover art for the DC Rebirth Batman #1 on Instagram. The Joker here bears a strong resemblance to Leto's incarnation. Is this the Joker's new Rebirth look, or merely a variant cover tribute to the upcoming Suicide Squad movie?

https://www.instagram.com/p/BFjhE9lko9V/

Quote from: The Joker on Mon, 10 Nov  2014, 18:32
Really can't see Ryan Gosling in the part. Nothing really against him, since I don't mind him, and liked Drive, but I just can't see it. Don't believe the part really suits him. At all. Could see him as Deadshot more than I can as the Joker.

Drive is an amazing movie and Gosling should've been Barry Allen. Perfect height, build and facial features, plus he'd be the first Barry to have the blonde hair and blue eyes of the comic book character.

Might just be the cover, but I wouldn't doubt DC starting to make the comic book Joker look similar to Leto's Joker. I recall DC giving the Joker facial scars, similar to Heath Ledger's Joker, prior to The Dark Knight coming out in 2008.

Course this was well before he had his whole face removed.  ;)

I think Leto's Joker is feeling very unique. Unique in the sense he's capturing a lot of different moods of the character, as seen in the comic books. I think the overall vibe he's giving is a gangster living the high life. Someone rougher around the edges, sporting many tattoos, but doing his 'job' in style with decorative guns. He could wear a tuxedo if one is available, and probably enjoys doing so. But he's probably more at home without a shirt at all. Being the real street animal he is. I have grown to really like the aesthetic, even though it was a shock to the system at first. He's someone I can see being intensely serious and playfully violent.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/suicide_squad/new-suicide-squad-collectible-reveals-the-joker-sporting-a-comic-a142391

A recent toy reveals that Joker may have the dragon tattoo on his back, like the Joker in All Star Batman & Robin.

A new image of the Joker has been released:

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1-www.comingsoon.net%2Fassets%2Fuploads%2Fgallery%2Fsuicide-squad%2Fsuicide0001.jpg&hash=74f9c0cf284d982184f4d8658c6f0dcfcc9b0c6d)

Leto discusses his predecessors in an interview with Rolling Stone:

Quote"Heath did an impeccable, perfect performance as the Joker," says Leto. "It's one of the best performances ever in cinema. I had met Heath before. I didn't know him well, but he was a beautiful person."

Leto had his moments of doubt about taking up Ledger's mantle, but was buoyed by the fact that the character had already existed in multiple incarnations before him, from the original comic books to Cesar Romero and Jack Nicholson to Mark Hamill's cartoon voice-overs. "I think had it only been portrayed by Heath and it was never a comic book, maybe I would have felt that would be inappropriate," Leto says. "But I thought that given the history, it was OK. The good thing about other people having done this is that you know what direction not to head in."

Meanwhile David Ayer has dispelled one of the more unsavoury stories surrounding Leto's method approach:

Quote"Look, they weren't used condoms," says Ayer. "Let's be real here. They're removed from their packages, but it wasn't actually used. And, of course, I was mortified. Like, 'Jared, put that stuff away — get that out of here, what are you doing?' "

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/features/jared-leto-the-unlikely-triumphs-of-a-rock-star-movie-star-w430833

Leto doesn't sound too happy about the final cut:

QuoteWe also asked Leto if he was upset about any of his scenes getting cut – as previously reported – to which he responded.

"Were there any that didn't get cut? I'm asking you, were there any that didn't get cut? There were so many scenes that got cut from the movie, I couldn't even start. I think that the Joker... we did a lot of experimentation on the set, we explored a lot. There's so much that we shot that's not in the film.

"If I die anytime soon, it's probably likely that it'll surface somewhere. That's the good news about the death of an actor is all that stuff seems to come out."

As IGN left the room we told Leto we hope he doesn't die anytime soon, to which he rather darkly responded "We all die."

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2016/08/05/jared-leto-unsure-about-jokers-journey-in-suicide-squad

There's alot of stuff that was glaringly missing from Leto's Joker. Especially if you've been following the production, or even just paying attention to the promotion!

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprem1.hiboox.com%2Fimages%2F3116%2Fa5b03a56356bce6be764af0a00385454.jpg&hash=246f8f619209ec96a95b3e80bb0bf5fb434f5bce)


Ultimate Cut? Maybe so!

However, the fan service was quite evident. Anyone who has seen the film knows what I'm referring to.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprem1.hiboox.com%2Fimages%2F3116%2F9e39cf0875751f8b5da3ee1b8893fbf1.jpg&hash=12f77cca07f6b14526aad756d980bd6e10d7b708)

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  5 Aug  2016, 18:07

There's alot of stuff that was glaringly missing from Leto's Joker. Especially if you've been following the production, or even just paying attention to the promotion!

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprem1.hiboox.com%2Fimages%2F3116%2Fa5b03a56356bce6be764af0a00385454.jpg&hash=246f8f619209ec96a95b3e80bb0bf5fb434f5bce)

sh*t, they didn't even include Joker smacking Harley in the final cut?

This must've been an executive decision following the criticism that MOS and BvS recently over their darker tone. But my question is, why is this backlash happening? Lots of Batman (and even Superman) movies in the past managed to get away with provocative material without this level of scrutiny.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat,  6 Aug  2016, 04:17
sh*t, they didn't even include Joker smacking Harley in the final cut?

This must've been an executive decision following the criticism that MOS and BvS recently over their darker tone.

No doubt!

QuoteBut my question is, why is this backlash happening? Lots of Batman (and even Superman) movies in the past managed to get away with provocative material without this level of scrutiny.

That's true. My guess, is that the current climate doesn't exactly lend itself for WB to go the provocative route anymore, since it's quite evident that it does them absolutely no favors with the current movie going crowd. Sure, it's open season on anything DC, but given the 1st teaser trailer was quite dark in tone, it's ok to assume Ayer was indeed going for a more provocative route. However, any hopes WB had with BvS getting a more welcomed reception than MOS was quickly dashed, and being aware of the success of Guardians, and later, Deadpool, those films more or less became the influence/tone WB wanted for Suicide Squad in order to appeal those crowds. As it stands, it's easily the most Marvel-like DCEU movie yet. Guardians with the music and b list characters most people are not familiar with. Deadpool with the visuals. Oh yeah, and there's alot more humor too.

Unfortunately, like the theatrical cut of BVS, the pacing and edits did the movie absolutely no favors, and like I said, with what was missing from the trailers and such was very glaring to me. As it wasn't just one thing, but several instances. On the positive side, I was entertained, never bored, and didn't find any of the casting absolutely underwhelming or cringeworthy as I did with BvS.

If anything, I felt the casting was strong in this, and saved it.

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  6 Aug  2016, 06:34
That's true. My guess, is that the current climate doesn't exactly lend itself for WB to go the provocative route anymore, since it's quite evident that it does them absolutely no favors with the current movie going crowd.

Then the current movie going crowd are being foolish. If people are suddenly going to write off a movie for being too dark, then they should hold that criteria for everything else. As I said elsewhere, it makes me laugh that people deride BvS as "joyless, bleak and miserable" when the same thing can be applied to TDK, even more so. But I see some people praising TDK as "uplifting" despite how the ending paves the way for disastrous chain of events in TDKR, yet BvS gets ignored for its character arcs in redemption and sacrifice. It's an absolute joke.

But putting that little tantrum aside, this is the trend going on and the movie studios have to deal with it. Still, WB can't afford to meddle with the film if it's going to affect the quality. I've seen many people who were scathing of the theatrical cut of BvS come around and say they really liked the Ultimate Edition, which was the original version that Snyder made. Either put the movie out to the public how it was intended to be made, or don't make it at all.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat,  6 Aug  2016, 06:49
Then the current movie going crowd are being foolish. If people are suddenly going to write off a movie for being too dark, then they should hold that criteria for everything else. As I said elsewhere, it makes me laugh that people deride BvS as "joyless, bleak and miserable" when the same thing can be applied to TDK, even more so. But I see some people praising TDK as "uplifting" despite how the ending paves the way for disastrous chain of events in TDKR, yet BvS gets ignored for its character arcs in redemption and sacrifice. It's an absolute joke.

Never let it be said people don't enjoy or gravitate towards a pile on.

QuoteBut putting that little tantrum aside, this is the trend going on and the movie studios have to deal with it. Still, WB can't afford to meddle with the film if it's going to affect the quality. I've seen many people who were scathing of the theatrical cut of BvS come around and say they really liked the Ultimate Edition, which was the original version that Snyder made. Either put the movie out to the public how it was intended to be made, or don't make it at all.

That would be the ideal scenario, but like anything else, if you continually get overwhelmingly bashed for your vision or approach (see MOS and BvS), it's eventually going to have an affect going forward. Especially when there's millions of dollars on the line. I'll give WB some leeway in that regard, but do agree some decisions they make, like the theatrical cut of BvS, was nonsensical. With the DCEU, I don't really have a big issue with the director's and actor's involved, well most of them anyways, but attempting to put out a focused product on WB's perception of being on shaky ground is completely ineffective. Though the online critics, and their influence, certainly have to be factored in as well. If you have enough of them, modern day masterpieces like Iron Man 2+3, Ultron, and Thor 2 are praised like new born babies, but when it comes to Man of Steel, Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad, those films are all garbage? Yeah right.

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  6 Aug  2016, 08:07
Though the online critics, and their influence, certainly have to be factored in as well. If you have enough of them, modern day masterpieces like Iron Man 2+3, Ultron, and Thor 2 are praised like new born babies, but when it comes to Man of Steel, Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad, those films are all garbage? Yeah right.

You'll definitely hate Devin Faraci from Birth.Death.Movies then. He is a perfect example of those online critics you're talking about, who praises everything that Marvel has done and trashes MOS and BvS (although I heard he gave SS a surprisingly positive review). To be fair, he had been very critical of the Nolan trilogy as well, but he never dared to give any of those films an outright negative review like he did to the first two DCEU films. On top of that, he praised the failed Fantastic Four reboot last year.

As much as I love the MCU, I think the series hit its peak in Phase 1. The only real standout in Phase 2 for me is The Winter Soldier. I liked Iron Man 3 but I will admit that I felt misled by the serious tone of the trailers, whereas I disliked Iron Man 2 completely. Thor 2 was enjoyable, but doesn't touch the first one for me. I enjoyed Guardians of the Galaxy more than I expected, but I don't think it's one of the MCU's best by any means, and I thought Age of Ultron was a disappointment. Even Ant Man was better than that movie. Civil War was somewhat a mixed bag for me. I did like it, and I'll admit that I enjoyed it even more than BvS, but I didn't like the ending, and I thought Spider-Man had no reason being there. It was still a better Avengers film than AOU, but I thought it came third best out of all the Captain America solo movies.

I remember four or five years ago, the Marvel films weren't exactly being taken seriously as the golden standard for adapting comics on films, even after The First Avenger and The Avengers. In fact, many derided Marvel for being "kiddie friendly" and called them "fast food cinema" in comparison to the "cerebral" treatment of TDKT (which I think calling it "cerebral" to be an insult to the meaning of the word). But now they're conveniently trashing the "dark, mature tone" of MOS and BvS while championing the Marvel approach, both in tone and formula? Others say DC should've copied the same formula by having solo movies first and then the team-up, but if they did people would complain they're being copycats and have no vision. You can't win.

I'll repeat: if people are only dismissing MOS and BvS because of their darker, serious tone then they should apply the same thing to TDKT or anything else. If they're dismissing the first two DCEU films in favour of TDKT because of the writing...well, I could explain why the writing quality in TDKT is highly debatable, to put it nicely. But I've already exhausted myself by explaining why I didn't like those movies on this forum, so it's redundant by this point.

Of course, if there are people who just didn't like the films without any bias then that's a different story and totally understandable.

An extended version with all the cut Joker scenes would certainly be a huge moneymaker. But it would also lead to a bajillion articles about how WB just doesn't "get it" and relies on the blu-rays to fix their mistakes.

So I doubt it's going to happen, especially with Ayer stating that the theatrical version is his final cut.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun,  7 Aug  2016, 08:26
You'll definitely hate Devin Faraci from Birth.Death.Movies then. He is a perfect example of those online critics you're talking about, who praises everything that Marvel has done and trashes MOS and BvS (although I heard he gave SS a surprisingly positive review). To be fair, he had been very critical of the Nolan trilogy as well, but he never dared to give any of those films an outright negative review like he did to the first two DCEU films. On top of that, he praised the failed Fantastic Four reboot last year.

Yeah, I probably wouldn't like that guy.

QuoteAs much as I love the MCU, I think the series hit its peak in Phase 1. The only real standout in Phase 2 for me is The Winter Soldier. I liked Iron Man 3 but I will admit that I felt misled by the serious tone of the trailers, whereas I disliked Iron Man 2 completely. Thor 2 was enjoyable, but doesn't touch the first one for me. I enjoyed Guardians of the Galaxy more than I expected, but I don't think it's one of the MCU's best by any means, and I thought Age of Ultron was a disappointment. Even Ant Man was better than that movie. Civil War was somewhat a mixed bag for me. I did like it, and I'll admit that I enjoyed it even more than BvS, but I didn't like the ending, and I thought Spider-Man had no reason being there. It was still a better Avengers film than AOU, but I thought it came third best out of all the Captain America solo movies.

I remember four or five years ago, the Marvel films weren't exactly being taken seriously as the golden standard for adapting comics on films, even after The First Avenger and The Avengers. In fact, many derided Marvel for being "kiddie friendly" and called them "fast food cinema" in comparison to the "cerebral" treatment of TDKT (which I think calling it "cerebral" to be an insult to the meaning of the word). But now they're conveniently trashing the "dark, mature tone" of MOS and BvS while championing the Marvel approach, both in tone and formula? Others say DC should've copied the same formula by having solo movies first and then the team-up, but if they did people would complain they're being copycats and have no vision. You can't win.

You really can't, and people wanting to add to a pile on should never be underestimated. But you're exactly right. What was praised overzealously during the Nolan years, seems to be the bane (no pun intended) of WB's DCEU currently. If it's not bright, colorful, fun, and comedic, all of which I really wouldn't attribute to the Nolan Batman films, it's garbage. All while said Trilogy remains a darling of the internet community. Interesting. To say the least.

QuoteI'll repeat: if people are only dismissing MOS and BvS because of their darker, serious tone then they should apply the same thing to TDKT or anything else. If they're dismissing the first two DCEU films in favour of TDKT because of the writing...well, I could explain why the writing quality in TDKT is highly debatable, to put it nicely. But I've already exhausted myself by explaining why I didn't like those movies on this forum, so it's redundant by this point.

Of course, if there are people who just didn't like the films without any bias then that's a different story and totally understandable.

Yeah, that's a factor as well, and one that is essentially impossible to calculate. While I personally do believe there are people that are easily influenced and swayed by critics and the popular consensus towards whatever movie, there are indeed those who could care less about those opinions, and just don't like, or actually like a film based entirely on it's own merits even if it doesn't fall in line with the favored viewpoint.

Please pause from your thoughtful, page long analysis to answer one of my stupid short questions.

Why is the Joker not pure white, just kind of albino? It bothers me.  :(

LOL!

I don't think it's ever addressed in the film, so best guess ... artistic license? Going with otherworldly pale, instead of the traditional chalk white. Though I thought Leto appeared alot more chalk white in certain scenes than Harley ever did.

Quote from: GBglide on Mon,  8 Aug  2016, 04:28Please pause from your thoughtful, page long analysis to answer one of my stupid short questions.

Why is the Joker not pure white, just kind of albino? It bothers me.  :(

That's albino? Interesting.

But seriously, it works from the standpoint of fuzzy comic book science and logic. Plus it visually distinguishes Leto's Joker from his predecessors. I'm cool with that.

In an interview with Empire, Ayer has confirmed the Joker got his grill and tattoos after Batman knocked his teeth out following the death of Robin:

Quote"This is sort of my personal thing and maybe less about a larger connection. But Joker killed Robin and Batman basically smashes his teeth out and locks him up in Arkham Asylum. It's in the asylum where Joker would have done the 'damaged' tattoo as a message to Batman saying, 'You've damaged me. I was so beautiful before and now you've destroyed my face.' That's where the grill comes from."

http://www.empireonline.com/movies/suicide-squad/suicide-squad-spoilers/

It's revealed in the movie that Harley was an accomplice to Robin's murder:


So if Harley helped Joker kill Robin, and Joker had his teeth knocked out and acquired his tattoos after Robin's death, then why does he have his grill and "Damaged" tattoo in the scenes before Quinzel becomes Harley?

That really doesn't add up, and why does it have to be the act of the Joker killing Robin that prompts Batman to knock his teeth out? Given Affleck's Batman, I could see him doing that just for being overly antagonized.

Here's a nice little 'biographic' on cinematic Joker's.

(https://s25.postimg.org/72ovl983z/Biographic_Joker.jpg)

Leto has allegedly expressed his dissatisfaction about the final cut for Suicide Squad without actually seeing it yet, while getting caught on camera saying "f*** 'em" to WB.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/suicide_squad/jared-leto-has-some-choice-words-for-warner-bros-after-suicide-a144603

I understand his frustration. Investing himself into a part only for it to be trimmed back.

I only hope he'll stick around to play the Joker again.

Bloody WB and their pandering to critics.

My guess is he'll be back. I can't see Affleck wasting him in a solo film.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 17 Aug  2016, 09:40
Leto has allegedly expressed his dissatisfaction about the final cut for Suicide Squad without actually seeing it yet, while getting caught on camera saying "f*** 'em" to WB.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/suicide_squad/jared-leto-has-some-choice-words-for-warner-bros-after-suicide-a144603

Despite using that headline, CMB has clarified his comment had nothing to do with the cut of the film, with the tumblr poster who filmed Leto's interview saying the following to them:

QuoteThe 9 second "[frick] em" snapchat video had been posted identifying that that was Jared's response to his contract asking he not rock climb while filming. That was all it was in regards to. If a media outlet wants to take it out of context to get people to click on an article that has no direct basis beyond someone's impressions – that's on them.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/suicide_squad/no-jared-leto-did-not-say-fk-em-to-wb-regarding-suicide-squad-or-a144620

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 17 Aug  2016, 16:08

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 17 Aug  2016, 09:40
Leto has allegedly expressed his dissatisfaction about the final cut for Suicide Squad without actually seeing it yet, while getting caught on camera saying "f*** 'em" to WB.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/suicide_squad/jared-leto-has-some-choice-words-for-warner-bros-after-suicide-a144603

Despite using that headline, CMB has clarified his comment had nothing to do with the cut of the film, with the tumblr poster who filmed Leto's interview saying the following to them:

QuoteThe 9 second "[frick] em" snapchat video had been posted identifying that that was Jared's response to his contract asking he not rock climb while filming. That was all it was in regards to. If a media outlet wants to take it out of context to get people to click on an article that has no direct basis beyond someone's impressions – that's on them.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/suicide_squad/no-jared-leto-did-not-say-fk-em-to-wb-regarding-suicide-squad-or-a144620

Thanks for the clarification.

Bloody clickbait writers and their antics. A pox on them.  >:(

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 11 Aug  2016, 19:29
In an interview with Empire, Ayer has confirmed the Joker got his grill and tattoos after Batman knocked his teeth out following the death of Robin:

Quote"This is sort of my personal thing and maybe less about a larger connection. But Joker killed Robin and Batman basically smashes his teeth out and locks him up in Arkham Asylum. It's in the asylum where Joker would have done the 'damaged' tattoo as a message to Batman saying, 'You've damaged me. I was so beautiful before and now you've destroyed my face.' That's where the grill comes from."

http://www.empireonline.com/movies/suicide-squad/suicide-squad-spoilers/

It's revealed in the movie that Harley was an accomplice to Robin's murder:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpUsfBOWEAAWp9n.jpg:large)

So if Harley helped Joker kill Robin, and Joker had his teeth knocked out and acquired his tattoos after Robin's death, then why does he have his grill and "Damaged" tattoo in the scenes before Quinzel becomes Harley?

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fbatman-news.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F07%2FJared-Leto-Joker-Suicide-Squad-Trailer-HD.jpg%3Ffit%3D1200%252C675%26amp%3Bquality%3D85%26amp%3Bstrip%3Dinfo%26amp%3Bresize%3D400%252C300&hash=786e29747913e3aeb6946a0ad26e3fc6aa37e74a)

A couple of days ago on Twitter, David Ayer agreed with a fan that this is a plot hole, but he claims it wasn't in his original cut. He says it was a rewrite by Geoff Johns.

(https://i.imgur.com/gta8366.jpg)

Source: https://twitter.com/DavidAyerMovies/status/1268580537943199744

Yet another example that Geoff Johns left behind a very bad legacy as the former head of DC Films. Depending on who you ask, Johns is either incompetent at writing for TV and film, or he was sabotaging the franchise on purpose. A couple of things are certain: the popular consensus is Johns is a snake, and his rewrite broke continuity.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 11 Aug  2016, 19:42
That really doesn't add up, and why does it have to be the act of the Joker killing Robin that prompts Batman to knock his teeth out? Given Affleck's Batman, I could see him doing that just for being overly antagonized.

Going by the exposition and what was implied in BvS, Batman never truly got brutal until he witnessed the Battle of Metropolis. From that point on, he was becoming a shadow of his former self. Yes, he may have lashed out at the Joker for Robin's murder many years ago, but it seemed he could still control himself and not let his anguish take it any further. Same thing goes when he captured Harley Quinn in SS, he saw the opportunity to take her into custody as an eye for an eye. A deleted scene featured Batman saying "Joker took something from me, now I take something from him". From what we saw in the beginning of BvS, the Metropolis incident was probably the first time - since childhood - that Batman truly felt helpless and had no control of the situation at all. And that's what really scared him.

If I had to guess, the whole bit with Harley participating in Robin's death was probably Johns trying to enhance her arc in the movie. It firmly puts her on the bad side when, apart from that one issue, the audience might be tempted to just regard Harley as the Joker's girlfriend and little more.

As with so many Johns retcons though, it's unnecessary, illogical and raises more questions than it answers.

For example, originally, the Superboy clone was an amalgamation of Superman and Cadmus Director Paul Westfield. This was a logical concept in-universe. Superman was dead at the time and Westfield's ego was more than big enough to want to see himself as Superman. It made a lot of sense.

But that wasn't good enough for Geoff Johns because he later retconned in the revelation that Superboy is actually a clone of Superman and Lex Luthor. It was completely illogical, it raised a ton of questions, it contradicted previous continuity and overall it was just a big mess. And it was only done for the cheap drama of Superboy experiencing conflict between his Superman nature and his Lex Luthor nature. It was completely idiotic and the only reason it stuck was because Johns has serious mojo at DC and probably nobody wants to risk eliminating his concepts.

Another thing is the prominence of Courtney Whitmore. In a fair and sane world, Jack Knight would probably occupy Whitmore's place in DC as a multimedia franchise. But Courtney Whitmore is Geoff Johns's character, she's based on his deceased sister and everybody probably thinks it would be kind of a prickish move to replace Courtney Whitmore with Jack Knight even though Jack is by far the more interesting character. So Courtney Whitmore is super-prominent because F you, that's why and it's just a mess.

Now don't get me wrong, I like a lot of Johns's comics. His run on Green Lantern is incredible. But not everything he touches turns to gold. Subtract Green Lantern

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri,  5 Jun  2020, 15:44
Going by the exposition and what was implied in BvS, Batman never truly got brutal until he witnessed the Battle of Metropolis. From that point on, he was becoming a shadow of his former self. Yes, he may have lashed out at the Joker for Robin's murder many years ago, but it seemed he could still control himself and not let his anguish take it any further. Same thing goes when he captured Harley Quinn in SS, he saw the opportunity to take her into custody as an eye for an eye. A deleted scene featured Batman saying "Joker took something from me, now I take something from him". From what we saw in the beginning of BvS, the Metropolis incident was probably the first time - since childhood - that Batman truly felt helpless and had no control of the situation at all. And that's what really scared him.

Going purely off of BvS, I agree that Batman feeling truly helpless, since the event that took his parents, transpired during the "Battle of Metropolis" incident. However, it's also pretty easy to envision the past adventures of Batfleck, and his Robin being fairly violent, and no nonsense with how they both dealt with the criminal element of Gotham. This is further highlighted with the halberd-like weapon that's on display with the defaced Robin costume we see on display. Now was Batfleck and Robin being completely unchecked during this time period? There's some wiggle room there, and I tend to lean that the idea of that is unlikely. Rather, Batfleck and Robin were probably going to beat you down within a inch of your life, with the possibility of whoever opposing them getting maimed in the process, but not actually going to the Kane/Finger 1939 extent of handling business.

Johns, Johns, Johns ..... I've said this before, but the more news that comes out, the more mixed feelings about the guy. Johns had some good runs of books like the Flash, Green Lantern, and JSA. I liked Infinite Crisis (yeah, I'll take IC over Final Crisis), Sinestro Corps War, and Blackest Night. His Rebirth one shot was a good effort in getting DC finally out of that New52 mess. Course, Johns' work at DC Comics wasn't always great (I find his Superman work forgettable), but yeah, the guy clearly was a human monkey wrench when it comes to the DCEU trying to establish itself. Which is nothing but infuriating.