Somebody edited the Joker to make him resemble his look from BTAS, in this scene from the TNBA episode Holiday Knights. It's a great effort.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABud3HvoIdw
This is how his updated design for TNBA should've been. It retains the original look, while at the same time it still would've been just as simple to animate. The Joker's facial features still change without much reason, i.e. his chin going from squared to triangular, but this redesign would've had better continuity leading up to JL and BB:ROTJ than TNBA did.
That's a pretty good edit.
While I can't say that I find TNBA's redesign of the Joker to be the most egregious (still think the TNBA's Riddler has that one all to himself), something like this would have been much more in line and flowed better with Harley Quinn (Two-Face and Clayface as well), where the TNBA redesign is there, but not to a dramatic extent like what we ended up with.
The same editor made another version of that scene, this time incorporating the same colours from BB:ROTJ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-Gc7giP9ys
After watching how these videos add these extra details to the Joker's face, I'm convinced the TNBA design for him was inspired by laziness rather than saving time and budget.
Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 2 Dec 2021, 21:26
still think the TNBA's Riddler has that one all to himself
Yeah, that Riddler redesign left a lot to be desired too. I can see how they wanted to redeem that green spandex look from the comics, but the removal of the domino mask and retaining the bowler hat didn't fit.
Although as much as I prefer the original BTAS design for Riddler, I admit he looks unoriginal if you compare him to the Clock King, because the way they dress is very similar. The strangest detail about the Riddler in BTAS is the cane is as generic as they come, whereas in TNBA it's shaped as a question mark. The Clock King, on the other hand, probably even looks more outlandish with his clock hand cane and clock glasses.
I guess what I'm saying is Clock King's design is more imaginative than either version of the Riddler.
No surprise, the BTAS colors look best, and even bring out the subtleties of the animation better. The eyes are that much more expressive. It's also a bit of my bias that I like the '89-style orange and purple versus the classic green and purple.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 3 Dec 2021, 10:27
Yeah, that Riddler redesign left a lot to be desired too. I can see how they wanted to redeem that green spandex look from the comics, but the removal of the domino mask and retaining the bowler hat didn't fit.
Although as much as I prefer the original BTAS design for Riddler, I admit he looks unoriginal if you compare him to the Clock King, because the way they dress is very similar. The strangest detail about the Riddler in BTAS is the cane is as generic as they come, whereas in TNBA it's shaped as a question mark. The Clock King, on the other hand, probably even looks more outlandish with his clock hand cane and clock glasses.
I guess what I'm saying is Clock King's design is more imaginative than either version of the Riddler.
True, I've expressed before that the suited Riddler has become overdone. Which is why I welcomed the return of the spandex suit Riddler, but the TNBA design took simplicity to the extreme. Removing the eyebrows, mask, and hair was way too much (even if they didn't want to draw all the question marks). Riddler's classic look was already well established in the 80s, not even changing that much from his original design.
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/b/b2/Detective_Comics_377.jpg)
Clock King also got a great redesign. I think he was pretty recognizable from his classic appearances, but the clock glasses were an instant classic.
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/e/ee/The_Clock_1947.JPG)
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/batman/images/1/13/Clock_King.jpg)
The intent behind that TNBA redesign was apparently to make the Joker look more skull-like. I guess someone eventually regretted that decision because subsequent designs veered closer to the original BTAS version.
I regard TNBA's Joker to be a noble failure. They tried taking the character in a different direction. No, it wasn't completely successful. But it was worth doing, I think.
The YouTube channel that uploaded those videos did a little switch with the colours in this shot of the Joker in BTAS.
(https://i.imgur.com/qgSWxuw.png)
At best, the TNBA Joker looks ghostly. But it's still nowhere near as good as the original design.
Quote from: Slash Man on Fri, 3 Dec 2021, 18:38
True, I've expressed before that the suited Riddler has become overdone. Which is why I welcomed the return of the spandex suit Riddler, but the TNBA design took simplicity to the extreme. Removing the eyebrows, mask, and hair was way too much (even if they didn't want to draw all the question marks). Riddler's classic look was already well established in the 80s, not even changing that much from his original design.
The only reason I could think of why they simplified the Riddler so much in TNBA was because they saw no need to put in so much effort in giving him so much detail if he was going to be relegated to making cameos. I heard the budget was one of the reasons why they redesigned a lot of the characters in TNBA, and maybe simplicity with the new characters' appearances helped speed up the production. After all, it was documented the showrunners were sometimes dissatisfied with the quality of the animation that some of the studios were producing for BTAS.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 4 Dec 2021, 05:44
The only reason I could think of why they simplified the Riddler so much in TNBA was because they saw no need to put in so much effort in giving him so much detail if he was going to be relegated to making cameos. I heard the budget was one of the reasons why they redesigned a lot of the characters in TNBA, and maybe simplicity with the new characters' appearances helped speed up the production. After all, it was documented the showrunners were sometimes dissatisfied with the quality of the animation that some of the studios were producing for BTAS.
This could be my interpretation, but it seems like TNBA was ended far before its time, and the show runners didn't get to realize most of their plans. Commentary talks about Riddler's redesign, and how it was done to make him a more physical presence in the future. That much makes sense for putting him into a more active costume. Only problem is we never saw him trade blows with Batman like this. Only a little bit of fighting with Robin in the Superman crossover.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 3 Dec 2021, 10:27
Yeah, that Riddler redesign left a lot to be desired too. I can see how they wanted to redeem that green spandex look from the comics, but the removal of the domino mask and retaining the bowler hat didn't fit.
Although as much as I prefer the original BTAS design for Riddler, I admit he looks unoriginal if you compare him to the Clock King, because the way they dress is very similar. The strangest detail about the Riddler in BTAS is the cane is as generic as they come, whereas in TNBA it's shaped as a question mark. The Clock King, on the other hand, probably even looks more outlandish with his clock hand cane and clock glasses.
I guess what I'm saying is Clock King's design is more imaginative than either version of the Riddler.
You know, I never really thought too much about BTAS Riddler and Clock King looking a tad similar, but yeah, there's some striking similarities. I do remember assuming that the Riddler having a question mark cane by the time of TNBA was from
probable "Batman Forever" influence. After that movie, the Riddler reappearing with a ordinary cane would almost be a crime in itself.
Quote from: Slash Man on Fri, 3 Dec 2021, 18:38
Clock King also got a great redesign. I think he was pretty recognizable from his classic appearances, but the clock glasses were an instant classic.
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/e/ee/The_Clock_1947.JPG)
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/batman/images/1/13/Clock_King.jpg)
I don't think I was at all familiar with the Clock King before I saw him on BTAS to be perfectly honest. If I ever saw him on the Adam West series, being such a young age at the time, I probably assumed he was just another one of the shows original villains made for celebrities of the time. Hell, I might have thought the same thing
after BTAS episode "The Clock King" as well. Thinking he was a villain created for the animated series and not originating from the source material. I do remember realizing the Clock King was actually from the comics, when a picture of him appeared in one of Wizard Magazine's "Specials" that focused entirely on comic book villains ("Dark Book" I think was the title), but it was this version ...
(https://www.writeups.org/wp-content/uploads/Clock-King-DC-Comics-Tockman.jpg)
I think Wizard even catagorized Clock King as a "lame" villain among others. With that outfit, I can understand why, though I appreciated his appearance in "Batman Brave and the Bold" being very similar to this one. However, BTAS version of Clock King is definitive to me. One of my favorite episodes actually.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 4 Dec 2021, 05:36
The intent behind that TNBA redesign was apparently to make the Joker look more skull-like. I guess someone eventually regretted that decision because subsequent designs veered closer to the original BTAS version.
I regard TNBA's Joker to be a noble failure. They tried taking the character in a different direction. No, it wasn't completely successful. But it was worth doing, I think.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 4 Dec 2021, 05:44
The YouTube channel that uploaded those videos did a little switch with the colours in this shot of the Joker in BTAS.
(https://i.imgur.com/qgSWxuw.png)
At best, the TNBA Joker looks ghostly. But it's still nowhere near as good as the original design.
Agreed on the original design being untouchable. TNBA Joker, whether the intent was to make him skull like or ghostly just comes a bit too close to Mr. Freeze's redesign in TNBA. Like even in the above picture, take away the hair and smile, and that Joker could very well come across like a Fries sibling.
QuoteThe only reason I could think of why they simplified the Riddler so much in TNBA was because they saw no need to put in so much effort in giving him so much detail if he was going to be relegated to making cameos. I heard the budget was one of the reasons why they redesigned a lot of the characters in TNBA, and maybe simplicity with the new characters' appearances helped speed up the production. After all, it was documented the showrunners were sometimes dissatisfied with the quality of the animation that some of the studios were producing for BTAS.
Quote from: Slash Man on Sat, 4 Dec 2021, 16:48
This could be my interpretation, but it seems like TNBA was ended far before its time, and the show runners didn't get to realize most of their plans. Commentary talks about Riddler's redesign, and how it was done to make him a more physical presence in the future. That much makes sense for putting him into a more active costume. Only problem is we never saw him trade blows with Batman like this. Only a little bit of fighting with Robin in the Superman crossover.
I can buy either/or explanation for the Riddler's redsign in TNBA, but either way, it just comes across as glaringly half baked. I mean, I can go with the idea of having the Riddler become a physical presence for a one-and-done episode (perhaps something influenced by an issue of Batman that lead up to Knightfall where Bane injected Riddler with the venom serum), but to have the Riddler remain a physical presence for an extended amount of time (multiple episodes) is a really suspect place to take the character. I don't know. Perhaps the execution would have been more satisfactory than what it sounds like? However, if the idea was for the Riddler to just be regulated to simple cameos for TNBA then-foreseeable future, then yeah, I guess I can at least understand the depthless TNBA redesign he ended up with.
Still no excuse for such a horrendous redesign. Just slightly more coherent in trying to get an idea of the thinking at the time.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 4 Dec 2021, 05:36
The intent behind that TNBA redesign was apparently to make the Joker look more skull-like. I guess someone eventually regretted that decision because subsequent designs veered closer to the original BTAS version.
I regard TNBA's Joker to be a noble failure. They tried taking the character in a different direction. No, it wasn't completely successful. But it was worth doing, I think.
I prefer the BTAS designs but don't hate the redesigns from a storytelling point of view. The DCAU is a long-term continuity, showing us the most complete character arc of Batman to date. The redesigns help signify time has passed and the characters have changed. They're not exactly the same people they were at the start. They're older and more mature. Whether or not the redesigns hit the mark is for the individual to decide. Scarecrow and Bane are obvious improvements.
Here is a picture comparing the shot from
Holiday Knights to various Joker colours in the DCAU, including a combined mix of colours by the editor.
(https://i.imgur.com/BCBJYdE.jpg)
Quote from: The Joker on Sat, 4 Dec 2021, 23:44
BTAS version of Clock King is definitive to me. One of my favorite episodes actually.
I agree, it's in my top ten favourite episodes. If Mr. Freeze's backstory is the most tragic of the series then Clock King's backstory is the funniest. To swear vengeance against someone whose crime was merely trying to give you helpful advice because your day was full of bad luck will forever be comical. ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlM-YxFxFjc
Quote from: The Joker on Sat, 4 Dec 2021, 23:44
Agreed on the original design being untouchable. TNBA Joker, whether the intent was to make him skull like or ghostly just comes a bit too close to Mr. Freeze's redesign in TNBA. Like even in the above picture, take away the hair and smile, and that Joker could very well come across like a Fries sibling.
True. Even if TNBA Joker had kept his red lips, I reckon he still loses a lot of expression with those black eyes with the white pupils. It's a lifeless redesign no matter how you try to defend it. It would make sense for a grim villain like Mr. Freeze, but Joker should still be vibrant.
But if they really wanted to go through this ghostly look at some point in the DCAU, it might've made more sense in BB:ROTJ, when Joker was revived in Tim Drake's body.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 5 Dec 2021, 04:07
Here is a picture comparing the shot from Holiday Knights to various Joker colours in the DCAU, including a combined mix of colours by the editor.
(https://i.imgur.com/BCBJYdE.jpg)
That's pretty cool.
Seeing the "Static Shock" example, reminds me that I either really need to hunt down "The Big Leagues", and "Hard as Nails" episodes online, or just break down and start buying the Static Shock season sets. I haven't seen those Static Shock episodes featuring the Joker, and Harley in quite a long time.
Quote
I agree, it's in my top ten favourite episodes. If Mr. Freeze's backstory is the most tragic of the series then Clock King's backstory is the funniest. To swear vengeance against someone whose crime was merely trying to give you helpful advice because your day was full of bad luck will forever be comical. ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlM-YxFxFjc
Yeah, I absolutely love how that backstory scene concludes; with Temple Fugate looking manical as he turns his head towards us the viewer, and begins screaming like a madman accompanied by the zoom in. As a kid, I found this
particularly memorable.
Quote
True. Even if TNBA Joker had kept his red lips, I reckon he still loses a lot of expression with those black eyes with the white pupils. It's a lifeless redesign no matter how you try to defend it. It would make sense for a grim villain like Mr. Freeze, but Joker should still be vibrant.
Couldn't agree more.
QuoteBut if they really wanted to go through this ghostly look at some point in the DCAU, it might've made more sense in BB:ROTJ, when Joker was revived in Tim Drake's body.
Very true. Incorporating a more ghostly (or skull like) appearance would have flowed better in BB:ROTJ, than in TNBA. As BB:ROTJ encompassed the DCAU Joker that has essentially returned from beyond the grave. The whole body possession angle kinda has a "Exorcist" vibe to it, and the TNBA black beady eyes could have been viewed as symbolic of the more demoniacal nature of the Joker's resurgence in BB:ROTJ.
Quote from: The Joker on Sun, 5 Dec 2021, 05:17
Very true. Incorporating a more ghostly (or skull like) appearance would have flowed better in BB:ROTJ, than in TNBA. As BB:ROTJ encompassed the DCAU Joker that has essentially returned from beyond the grave. The whole body possession angle kinda has a "Exorcist" vibe to it, and the TNBA black beady eyes could have been viewed as symbolic of the more demoniacal nature of the Joker's resurgence in BB:ROTJ.
Perfectly put. (https://www.batman-online.com/forum/Themes/default/images/post/thumbup.gif)
The YouTube editor is now running a GoFundMe profile to crowd fund his recoloring projects and posted this re-edited shot from
Holiday Knights, when Joker interrupted a live broadcast of the "Toilet Bowl". :D
(https://i.imgur.com/xiS8qlT.jpg)
I found the same guy is also posting on Reddit, and recoloured this shot from BB:ROTJ.
(https://i.redd.it/al8icsuxhr381.png)
I'll admit I thought the TNBA, ROTJ, JL, and Static Shock models were all the same (with the exception of TNBA having the different face). While it's subtle, it looks like it's mostly the hair color and eye/teeth color that's changed.
As much as the design is superior, I don't think the TAS design works for Return of the Joker. I just associate that more with the lighthearted clownish appearances. But the TNBA design looks appropriately evil, even more so than the original.
Quote from: The Joker on Sat, 4 Dec 2021, 23:44
I don't think I was at all familiar with the Clock King before I saw him on BTAS to be perfectly honest. If I ever saw him on the Adam West series, being such a young age at the time, I probably assumed he was just another one of the shows original villains made for celebrities of the time. Hell, I might have thought the same thing after BTAS episode "The Clock King" as well. Thinking he was a villain created for the animated series and not originating from the source material. I do remember realizing the Clock King was actually from the comics, when a picture of him appeared in one of Wizard Magazine's "Specials" that focused entirely on comic book villains ("Dark Book" I think was the title), but it was this version ...
https://www.writeups.org/wp-content/uploads/Clock-King-DC-Comics-Tockman.jpg
I think Wizard even catagorized Clock King as a "lame" villain among others. With that outfit, I can understand why, though I appreciated his appearance in "Batman Brave and the Bold" being very similar to this one. However, BTAS version of Clock King is definitive to me. One of my favorite episodes actually.
I think I mentioned it in another thread, but I still maintain that The Clock was the first incarnation of the Batman villain, the Clock King. The Green Arrow Clock King wouldn't have even been considered a predecessor to the BTAS character if it wasn't under the DC brand. I think it's very much coincidence that a Batman and Green Arrow villain were both named "Clock King", and were both amalgamated in the comics afterwards once BTAS gave the character new life.
Quote from: Slash Man on Sat, 11 Dec 2021, 01:48
As much as the design is superior, I don't think the TAS design works for Return of the Joker. I just associate that more with the lighthearted clownish appearances. But the TNBA design looks appropriately evil, even more so than the original.
Agreed on both counts.
QuoteI think I mentioned it in another thread, but I still maintain that The Clock was the first incarnation of the Batman villain, the Clock King. The Green Arrow Clock King wouldn't have even been considered a predecessor to the BTAS character if it wasn't under the DC brand. I think it's very much coincidence that a Batman and Green Arrow villain were both named "Clock King", and were both amalgamated in the comics afterwards once BTAS gave the character new life.
I am absolutely unfamiliar with "The Clock" villain you brought up, but your suggestion could very well be a case that sounds a lot like that of a lesser known villain named "Cryonic Man" being, for all intents and purposes, the first incarnation of Mr. Freeze. As they share notable similarities. This was something Silver Nemesis brought up in a "Heart of Ice" thread.
(https://i.redd.it/kbd7ih9f1y481.gif)
https://youtu.be/hEi81S1igug