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http://www.batman-online.com/features/2012/10/1/comic-influences-on-batman-forever-1995

Another epic post by Silver Nemesis!

Do you have to do a lot of research for these posts or do you just know it off the top of your head?

QuoteDo you have to do a lot of research for these posts or do you just know it off the top of your head?

A bit of both. I'll often make a note of any comic that has something interesting in. Then I usually forget why it's interesting and have to go back and reread it. Sometimes I'll remember seeing something in a comic but can't remember which issue it was (I'm still trying to recall which story featured the bat-credit card). When reading the old comics you inevitably end up spotting familiar things. Make a note of them and they soon start to add up.

Speaking of which, I think it's about time we had a Batman: The Movie (1966) comic influences thread...

Great work once again. I think these comic influences threads/articles should be sticky.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 21 Jun  2011, 18:16
Speaking of which, I think it's about time we had a Batman: The Movie (1966) comic influences thread...

That would be fun.

According to Mark Hamill, Joel Schumacher watched his Trickster episodes over and over for inspiration!

QuoteAccording to Mark Hamill, Joel Schumacher watched his Trickster episodes over and over for inspiration!

Is that true? I've never heard this before, but it makes a lot of sense. I think I might rewatch that episode and try and spot some more connections.

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2012/10/1/comic-influences-on-batman-forever-1995

I'm pretty sure that issue inspired the B:TAS episode 'Perchance to Dream' as well.

Wow, this thread's been inactive for a year, and now suddenly we're coming up with all these new connections. Great work!

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 19 Aug  2012, 20:28Wow, this thread's been inactive for a year, and now suddenly we're coming up with all these new connections. Great work!

Me and my big mouth. :)

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 19 Aug  2012, 20:28

QuoteAccording to Mark Hamill, Joel Schumacher watched his Trickster episodes over and over for inspiration!

Is that true? I've never heard this before, but it makes a lot of sense. I think I might rewatch that episode and try and spot some more connections.

Yeah - Mark was on Kevin Smith's Fatman on Batman Smodcast - a great 2 part interview (and they mentioned Star Wars maybe twice for about 20secs in total!). I could listen to Mark talk for hours!

I am constantly amazed at the users of this site and their ability to source the comic material.

Quote from: Paul (ral) on Sun, 19 Aug  2012, 20:56Yeah - Mark was on Kevin Smith's Fatman on Batman Smodcast - a great 2 part interview (and they mentioned Star Wars maybe twice for about 20secs in total!). I could listen to Mark talk for hours!

I had absolutely positively no idea what you were talking about here so... to the Google, old chum! Fvcks sake, man, Smith had Paul Dini, Hamill, Bruce Timm, the whole son of a buck. Listening to part 1 of the Hamill thing right now. Loving it!

Yeah, I have only just discovered them myself. Flippin awesome stuff.

I've listened to the Dini and Hamill episodes so far. I tend to prefer the Dini episode because I like the creative stuff more than the performance stuff. Cool episodes. Thanks for mentioning this as I might not otherwise have found out about them.

Just here to echo awe of this thread.  I have warmed up to BF over the last year or more.  While not my favorite interpretation of the comics, some of these influences (direct or indirect) really have given it some additional credence. 

I love these threads!

Quote from: greggbray on Mon, 27 Aug  2012, 15:06Just here to echo awe of this thread.  I have warmed up to BF over the last year or more.  While not my favorite interpretation of the comics, some of these influences (direct or indirect) really have given it some additional credence.

I think what's retroactively improving it in my eyes is my disappointment with Nolan's films (not trying to start a pissing contest with anyone, just imparting my feelings) along with listening to the score. It's big, bold and loud in several obvious sections but it also has a surprising tenderness. It's not just bombastic noise. There are dynamics in play.

Look, I can't sit here and talk smack about how I'm some kind of big expert on movie scores. All I can tell you is how much the musical cues strike me. But there's a lot to appreciate about Goldenthal's work.

In terms of retroactively improving, I may be in the other direction.  Bear with me for a moment.

As I had mentioned elsewhere, my favorite stories about Two-Face are how he *became* Two-Face.  Even post scarring, the material that recalls Harvey Dent pre-scarring are the strongest moments for the character (again, thinking No Man's Land and some of Rucka's writings). 

Other than that, he settles too quickly into becoming a villain with a gimmick.  Batman Forever?  He's more or less a gimmick villain.  Which, to be fair, he certainly was in the comics as well, though the recent comics in particular really invested in him and peel back the layers a bit.  Batman Forever sort of fetishizes the gimmick--right down to having two different looking 'molls.' 

I really enjoyed The Dark Knight, and having seen Two-Face created that are in line with my personal tastes for the character,  I no longer really have that nagging 'what could have been' feeling when watching Tommy Lee Jones play Cesar Romero  Harvey Dent. I can watch the film and have little concern about whether or not Two-Face is up my alley.

I also will echo your appreciation of the score.  There are a few bombastic blasts here and there that don't work for me, but other than that the score is certainly more than servicable.  I've listened to the score less than the Elfman scores, of course, but I think at least in BF Goldenthal does a nice job of matching his music to the material. 

Two-Face had an obsession with duality in his behaviour, but we don't see that with his moods. The goofy side doesn't have a place with the character in my opinion. It's either regret/remorse/thinking things through or no prisoners/act now. Light and dark. However - if the movie had the goofy side mixed in with another mood, it would've been a start. At the end of the day (week, month or year, take your pick) it is what it is. People who like this kind of thing, all the power to them.

Sorry to derail Batman Forever discussion, but the current topic does bring me to something I've been thinking about for awhile. 

Personally, I find Two-Face to be one of the most misused characters.  I never understood the obsession with "twos" as a result of the accident.  I know it's been there since the beginning, but as Gregg says, it reduces him to a gimmick villain.  Also, many versions make it seem as if his Harvey Dent personality was completely wiped out once the acid hit his face.

One thing that I think that TDK 's Two-Face at least nailed (and this was covered in more detail in Two-Face's monologue to Grace in BTAS Two-Face Part II) was that Dent's view of morality changed after the scarring incident and he believed that fate/chance was the only "great equalizer."  There's a line from the TV show Person of Interest in which Reese says "Maybe there aren't any good people.  Only good decisions." 

I think Harvey would believe this, too, and that his obsession wouldn't be with the number two, but with chance.  He wouldn't believe in a good and bad anymore and instead, he'd completely rely on chance and a flip of the coin to dictate his decisions. 

I see Two-Face as the ultimate wildcard, maybe moreso than Catwoman.  Sometimes he helps Batman, sometimes he fights Batman.  The tragedy is that he's sacrificed all power to the coin and Bruce/Batman always tries to bring him back to sanity and restore the sense of morality he had before the accident.

Now a feature...http://www.batman-online.com/features/2012/10/1/comic-influences-on-batman-forever-1995

But if you want to read it, you gotta help us get 2000 likes on Facebook and 1500 followers on twitter!

I didn't think we would meet our target anytime soon so the feature is now active

Great job, Silver!

I apologize for finding these late since the feature has been in edit mode for awhile, but I finally dug up the Official Batman Forever movie magazine from 1995.  It's in rough condition, but still readable. 

Here's a few quotes that will, I'm sure, blow the minds of people who think Schumacher was just aping the the 60s series and nothing else.  Say what you will about his execution in adapting Batman, but Schumacher's films draw just as much from the comics as Burton's and Nolan's did.

The first quote is a vague confirmation from Chris O'Donnell himself that the Robin in the movie has elements of Jason Todd and Tim Drake.

QuoteThe writers encouraged me to do some research, so I went back and read all the comics (best homework assignment I ever had!).  I discovered that Robin had a much richer and more complicated history than I had thought.  Batman has actually had three partners. [...] Obviously, there could be only one Robin in the movie, but which one?  After much deliberation, Joel [Schumacher] and the writers had narrowed it down to the original, Dick Grayson, but they incorporated elements of the other two to make him more contemporary.

- Chris O'Donnell, "Introduction," Batman Forever Official Movie Magazine (p. 2)
This could fit in on Page 4, right before Silver goes into Jason Todd's origin and feud with Two-Face.

I'm not sure if any of the comics in the article were specifically written by Dennis O'Neil, but he was the DC Editor during the Knightfall era (and when the film came out) and actually visited the set.  I thought this was a cool quote about his reaction to the Gotham City sets.

QuoteIt was as I'd been imagining it since I wrote my first Batman story nearly 27 years ago.  I felt as though I were strolling through the inside of my own skull.

- Dennis O'Neil, "Believer on the Backlot," Batman Forever Official Movie Magazine (p. 6)
I'll leave it up to Silver and Paul to include it or not (and where).

Also interesting is this quote from O'Neil:

QuoteI love movies and this was a Batman movie- judging from the script, which I'd read several months earlier, maybe the best Batman movie.

The best confirmation on the comic book influences is an article about production designer Barbara Ling.

QuoteAs the one person most responsible for designing the look of Batman Forever, you can bet production designer Barbara Ling read DC Comics' seminal graphic novel The Dark Knight Returns not once, but many times.  "The main thing was to pore through the comics before anything happened," Ling says.  "That's where Batman comes from, and that's where the look should come from.  The comics lay the foundation."  It's clear that Batman comics have provided a big inspiration for Batman Forever.  Indeed, Lynn Varley's beautiful color washes from The Dark Knight Returns were no small inspiration for Ling and director Joel Schumacher's decision to make this Batman film more color-saturated than the previous two."

- "Inside Batman's World," Batman Forever Official Movie Magazine (p.56)
You read that right.  The inspiration for the neon look of Schumacher's Gotham came from...The Dark Knight Returns.  Cue fanboy rage!

The Ling quote could be paired with the first mention of The Dark Knight Returns on Page 2, perhaps after the Two-Face analysis and right before the first Dark Knight Returns citation with the goons calling him "Face."

The next one may require an additional write-up, since it pertains to the movie's redesigned Batmobile:

QuoteLing had the gargantuan task of supervising the look of almost every aspect of the film and making sure it fit with the director's vision.  For example, in designing the new Batmobile, Ling got downright historical.  "The big thing was going back to the very first Batman comics.  It was only done in the first couple of issues, but the Batmobile had a single fin on top."  The issue she's referring to is Batman #5, which featured the first appearance of the Batmobile, published way back in 1941.  "The funky single fin on top was a great image that was lost later on," Ling says.

- "Inside Batman's World," Batman Forever Official Movie Magazine (p. 56)
I believe this is a panel showing the comic book Batmobile that was used as reference: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5ju0fDMneXA/TAnyopgzaCI/AAAAAAAAApk/xvvvJig7Z3s/s1600/Batman+5-1+-4+recut.JPG
Silver may have a scan of a better example, though.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 31 Oct  2012, 00:26
Great job, Silver!

I apologize for finding these late since the feature has been in edit mode for awhile, but I finally dug up the Official Batman Forever movie magazine from 1995.  It's in rough condition, but still readable. 

Here's a few quotes that will, I'm sure, blow the minds of people who think Schumacher was just aping the the 60s series and nothing else.  Say what you will about his execution in adapting Batman, but Schumacher's films draw just as much from the comics as Burton's and Nolan's did.

The first quote is a vague confirmation from Chris O'Donnell himself that the Robin in the movie has elements of Jason Todd and Tim Drake.

QuoteThe writers encouraged me to do some research, so I went back and read all the comics (best homework assignment I ever had!).  I discovered that Robin had a much richer and more complicated history than I had thought.  Batman has actually had three partners. [...] Obviously, there could be only one Robin in the movie, but which one?  After much deliberation, Joel [Schumacher] and the writers had narrowed it down to the original, Dick Grayson, but they incorporated elements of the other two to make him more contemporary.

- Chris O'Donnell, "Introduction," Batman Forever Official Movie Magazine (p. 2)
This could fit in on Page 4, right before Silver goes into Jason Todd's origin and feud with Two-Face.

I'm not sure if any of the comics in the article were specifically written by Dennis O'Neil, but he was the DC Editor during the Knightfall era (and when the film came out) and actually visited the set.  I thought this was a cool quote about his reaction to the Gotham City sets.

QuoteIt was as I'd been imagining it since I wrote my first Batman story nearly 27 years ago.  I felt as though I were strolling through the inside of my own skull.

- Dennis O'Neil, "Believer on the Backlot," Batman Forever Official Movie Magazine (p. 6)
I'll leave it up to Silver and Paul to include it or not (and where).

Also interesting is this quote from O'Neil:

QuoteI love movies and this was a Batman movie- judging from the script, which I'd read several months earlier, maybe the best Batman movie.

The best confirmation on the comic book influences is an article about production designer Barbara Ling.

QuoteAs the one person most responsible for designing the look of Batman Forever, you can bet production designer Barbara Ling read DC Comics' seminal graphic novel The Dark Knight Returns not once, but many times.  "The main thing was to pore through the comics before anything happened," Ling says.  "That's where Batman comes from, and that's where the look should come from.  The comics lay the foundation."  It's clear that Batman comics have provided a big inspiration for Batman Forever.  Indeed, Lynn Varley's beautiful color washes from The Dark Knight Returns were no small inspiration for Ling and director Joel Schumacher's decision to make this Batman film more color-saturated than the previous two."

- "Inside Batman's World," Batman Forever Official Movie Magazine (p.56)
You read that right.  The inspiration for the neon look of Schumacher's Gotham came from...The Dark Knight Returns.  Cue fanboy rage!

The Ling quote could be paired with the first mention of The Dark Knight Returns on Page 2, perhaps after the Two-Face analysis and right before the first Dark Knight Returns citation with the goons calling him "Face."

The next one may require an additional write-up, since it pertains to the movie's redesigned Batmobile:

QuoteLing had the gargantuan task of supervising the look of almost every aspect of the film and making sure it fit with the director's vision.  For example, in designing the new Batmobile, Ling got downright historical.  "The big thing was going back to the very first Batman comics.  It was only done in the first couple of issues, but the Batmobile had a single fin on top."  The issue she's referring to is Batman #5, which featured the first appearance of the Batmobile, published way back in 1941.  "The funky single fin on top was a great image that was lost later on," Ling says.

- "Inside Batman's World," Batman Forever Official Movie Magazine (p. 56)
I believe this is a panel showing the comic book Batmobile that was used as reference: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5ju0fDMneXA/TAnyopgzaCI/AAAAAAAAApk/xvvvJig7Z3s/s1600/Batman+5-1+-4+recut.JPG
Silver may have a scan of a better example, though.

I actually remember buying this magazine when I was about 7 when the third film came out. I still have it and have read many times. In fact I read before seeing the movie. Most of these quotes are ingrained in my memory and this is possibly why I am more forgiving than most about the film. Yes Denny O' Neil said that! lol I guess he's changed his mind since then because he descirbed Batman Begins as the best of the Batman's by a wide margin. I beg to differ myself. But it clearly shows that what we think is fantastic and (then) current may end up being turned on it's head someday (are you reading Nolan fans???).

Barbara Ling must have used Dark Knight Returns. There is clearly a two toned Two-Face hideout in Miller's story which clearly inspired her set design.

As for those Neon signs that everyone hates I have clearly seen Neon signage used in Batman the animated series too. In several episodes. I actually think that series was Schumacher's greatest inspiration on his films. I agree that the Neon does get a little extreme. As a kid I loved the new Batmobile's glorious blue light lit engine. Now of course it's why is Batman driving around in a lit up "bulls eye" target for his foes? Then I realised hang on...it's a Batmobile!!! How on earth can you not miss seeing it whether lit up or not? Michael Keaton's and Christian Bale's models are clearly noticed. This vehicle is not specifically designed to be inconspicuous as you think folks lol

Not much to say, as always a fascinating read and great to finally see it in the main site.

Wow, that's probably the best collection of quotes on this subject I've ever seen! It actually makes me appreciate the movie a lot more. It's especially gratifying to get confirmation of our theory about the amalgamated Robins from Chris O'Donnell.

It's funny that they source the neon Gotham in the The Dark Knight Returns. TDKR has one of the most drab and monochrome depictions of Gotham ever. I can't imagine how they translated that into what we see in the movie. Maybe Schumacher's copy was printed with the wrong colours or something.

It would add a lot of weight to the feature if some of these quotes could be added. Now I just wish we could find similar quotes for Batman Returns.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  1 Nov  2012, 15:50
Wow, that's probably the best collection of quotes on this subject I've ever seen! It actually makes me appreciate the movie a lot more. It's especially gratifying to get confirmation of our theory about the amalgamated Robins from Chris O'Donnell.

It's funny that they source the neon Gotham in the The Dark Knight Returns. TDKR has one of the most drab and monochrome depictions of Gotham ever. I can't imagine how they translated that into what we see in the movie. Maybe Schumacher's copy was printed with the wrong colours or something.

It would add a lot of weight to the feature if some of these quotes could be added. Now I just wish we could find similar quotes for Batman Returns.

I always found Chris O' Donnell's intro interesting in that they had to apparently choose which Robin to use out of the three. Thank god they rightfully went for Dick Grayson. Schumacher was not misguided there. I've never liked all those different Robin's and Bob Kane highlights his own disgust for Jason Todd in his biography. My issue is they all look the same! Plus Tim Drake being at Dick Grayson's parents murder scene? I mean c'mon that's hokey comic book storytelling at it's finest. I never bought that nonsense. I really wish they would turn Grayson back into the original and official Robin as I get fed up of him being fully trapped as Nightwing. Him being a mirror of Bruce Wayne is what makes him more essential to me.

The feature should be updated with the magazine quotes above.

Also, I feel as if Batman's midnight visit to Chase's apartment is reminiscent of his visit to Silver St. Cloud in The Laughing Fish.  Both women are near naked when Batman arrives and mention/reference his other identity as Bruce Wayne to send him away.  The novelization even goes as far as revealing that Chase has figured out that Bruce and Batman are the same man already- something that Silver is well known for figuring out in the comics.

Any thoughts?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  1 Nov  2012, 15:50It's funny that they source the neon Gotham in the The Dark Knight Returns. TDKR has one of the most drab and monochrome depictions of Gotham ever. I can't imagine how they translated that into what we see in the movie. Maybe Schumacher's copy was printed with the wrong colours or something.

Unless I've goofed something up, there should be an attachment included. This is about the most I could find in TDKR that might've been used as some sort of influence.

I think the most likely explanation is that the production team knew to mention the title to placate fans.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 17 Mar  2013, 19:41
The feature should be updated with the magazine quotes above.

Also, I feel as if Batman's midnight visit to Chase's apartment is reminiscent of his visit to Silver St. Cloud in The Laughing Fish.  Both women are near naked when Batman arrives and mention/reference his other identity as Bruce Wayne to send him away.  The novelization even goes as far as revealing that Chase has figured out that Bruce and Batman are the same man already- something that Silver is well known for figuring out in the comics.

Any thoughts?

I'll get them on tomorrow.

Thanks, Paul.

A couple other observations, smaller than the ones in the current article:

- For the first time, Bruce Wayne is shown to be friends with Commissioner Gordon, harking back to their first appearances in Detective Comics #27.  Yes, Bruce invited Gordon to his party in B89, but considering that Vicki Vale was also invited without even knowing the man, this hardly counts as evidence that they were friends then.

Here, Gordon calls on Bruce personally for both Stickley's suicide and for helping out with Dick Grayson and is clearly on a first name basis with him, calling him "Bruce" instead of "Mr. Wayne."

- One notable addition to the Batcave in Forever is the large Bat symbol hanging on the wall in the background, behind the Batmobile. 
http://www.mdcu-comics.fr/upload/dossiers/01/70_batcave/dossiers_illustre_1272101430.jpg

This could take cues from the 1943 Batman serial, where a large bat silhouette was in the background when the serial introduced Batman brooding in "The Bat's Cave" for the first time. 
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090608123658/batman/images/4/4c/Bats_Cave.png

This bat-on-the-wall was later adopted into the 1940s comic strips.  For example, it can be seen in "Batman's Underground Study" in the overall map of the Batcave.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/culture_test/Batcave-Circa-1943.jpg

Not sure if anyone else ever mentioned it but there is a bit of a similarity between the Chase/Batman scene at her place and the beginning of Detective Comics #475/The Laughing Fish, where Batman pays a visit to Silver St. Cloud.

^ Check about four posts above yours  ;)

While Chase Meridian gets crap sometimes for sounding like a merger between two banks, is her name really that more ridiculous or out there as Silver St. Cloud?  Chase's name at least has some thematic tie in to the movie.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 25 Mar  2013, 16:10^ Check about four posts above yours  ;)

Oops. But hey, at least now we have pics...

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 25 Mar  2013, 16:10While Chase Meridian gets crap sometimes for sounding like a merger between two banks, is her name really that more ridiculous or out there as Silver St. Cloud?  Chase's name at least has some thematic tie in to the movie.

True dat.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 25 Mar  2013, 16:10
^ Check about four posts above yours  ;)

While Chase Meridian gets crap sometimes for sounding like a merger between two banks

LOL  :D

Not so much a comic book influence, but it's worth nothing that in the 1960s series, Riddler attempted to blow up the Batmobile in the first episode Hi Diddle Riddle.  He also, like Carrey's Riddler, pretended to be legit while he was committing crimes and kidnapped Robin (though the latter isn't exactly unique to Riddler).

Bat-Kilmer stands arms akimbo in a number of publicity images, as well as in the finished film. This pose is typical of the Golden Age Batman.


I thought I'd already covered the similarities between the helicopter sequence in the movie and the opening scene in Batman: Son of the Demon (1987), but after glancing over our site feature I realised I neglected to mention it until now. Both of these set pieces occur early in the story, right after Batman has saved hostages from a building surrounded by Gordon and his men. Once the threat inside the building has been neutralised, the police move in and the villains attempt to escape by helicopter. Batman gives chase and boards the chopper, but during the ensuing fight one of the villains discharges his gun in such a way that results in the helicopter exploding/crashing.


Batman survives by leaping into the waters of Gotham harbour. The image of him gasping for breath as he resurfaces is straight out of this comic.


Vicki Vale uses the Bat-Signal to summon Batman to police headquarters in 'Lights- Camera- Crime!' (Batman Vol 1 #50, December 1948), much like Chase does in the movie.


The Batmobile drives vertically up the side of a building in the Silver Age story 'The Outsider Strikes Again!' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #340, June 1965).


Here's a visual comparison with a scene from 'One Drown – One More to Go!' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #381, November 1968).


And another scene from 'The Arch-Rivals of Gotham City' (Batman Vol 1 #119, October 1958).

Great work.

During a recent skim I saw this from 'When Riddled By The Riddler' - Batman #362 (1983)

(https://i.imgur.com/JK7sSxT.jpg)

Probably too close to be a specific reference, but The Riddle Factory was released in 1995 and involves digging up dirt on celebrities, which is similar to Carrey's endgame in BF.

Before I get started, I have no idea if this was referenced in the original post for this thread. Hopefully, we can get back the comic influences threads some day.

If there's an aspect of Batman Forever that everyone seems agree isn't very good it's Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face. Probably the most criticized scene with that character in the film is after Two-Face and Riddler break into Wayne Manor. While Two-Face's goons pursue Chase and Bruce, Two-Face constantly flips his coin hoping to get scarred side up so that he can shoot Bruce.

People have said that this completely goes against Two-Face's character. However, I just wanted to say that there is a precedence in the comics for this behavior. I just read Batman #398, in it there's a sequence where Harvey has to decide to wear a mask so he turns to flipping his coin for help. He keeps flipping the coin until he gets the desired result and even says to another character "Did you think I can't toss my coin until I get whatever result I want?!"