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Monarch Theatre => Nolan's Bat => Misc. Nolan => Topic started by: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 7 Jan 2021, 19:22

Title: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 7 Jan 2021, 19:22
The most obvious one to start with here is the Keysi Fighting Method, often abbreviated as KFM. This is the foundation of Bruce's martial philosophy in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, though the stunt team modified it for The Dark Knight Rises to allow for the fact that Bruce was meant to be older and slower. The classic KFM stance involves holding the arms up to protect the head with the elbows projecting forwards.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/d6/29/84d62947f700b6d765196a3276465296.jpg)

The Nolan Batman adopts this stance in numerous fight scenes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKzcGvz4/kfm.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZK92VScd/kfm2.gif)

KFM incorporates elements of barroom brawling, and this is clearly evidenced in the Nolan Batman's fighting style. Note that he often allows himself to get hit, then channels his anger into his counterattack. This exemplifies one of the core psychological components of Keysi.

(https://i.postimg.cc/15c3H2Ks/bar.gif)

Christian Bale had already been training in Wing Chun Kung Fu under the tutelage of Sifu Eric Oram for some time prior to making Batman Begins. I believe he began training in Wing Chun for his own personal benefit rather than for any specific film role. But since he was already training before and during the making of The Dark Knight trilogy, it inevitably influenced his fighting style on screen.

According to online sources, Christian Bale has also trained in Krav Maga, a martial art developed by the Israeli Defence Force. Examples of him using this can be seen when the Nolan Batman disarms opponents carrying guns.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgQjpXtB/kravmaga.gif)

His prominent use of hammerfist strikes is also typical of Krav Maga and KFM.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wMMZK8Yn/kfm1.gif)

Bale's stunt double, world Ju-Jitsu champion Buster Reeves, confirmed that they expanded his fighting style for The Dark Knight Rises to include Silat, Jeet Kune Do and Thai boxing.

Quote"Because Bane's his biggest adversary yet, Chris wanted Batman to evolve his fighting style. We've added a bit of Jeet Kun Do, some Silat [an Indonesian martial art], a bit of Thai boxing."
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2012/jul/14/dark-knight-rises-behind-the-scenes

Ra's describes Bruce's stance as "Tiger" when they first fight at the League of Shadows headquarters. Tiger is one of the main forms of Five Animals Shaolin Kung Fu. Later in the same fight, Bruce adopts a different stance which Ra's identifies as "Panther". This is another less common form of Animal Kung Fu. So Bruce has definitely trained in Shaolin Kung Fu, and specifically the Animal forms. He occasionally strikes with his forearm instead of his fists, which I believe is also typical of Tiger Kung Fu.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pTTqrfcF/tiger.gif)

When Ra's intercepts Bruce's attack, Bruce responds by twisting his opponent's limb to try and throw him off balance. Ra's identifies this manoeuvre as "Ju-Jitsu". The Nolan Batman frequently uses similar joint locks to disarm and incapacitate his enemies throughout the trilogy. Most of his joint locks are derived from Ju-Jitsu.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VsJN8WbM/jujitsu.gif)

The scene where Bruce is defending himself while balancing on wooden poles evokes a balance training method used in Shaolin Kung Fu.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJBLtZ4F/shaolin.gif)

Bale's Batman primarily uses his upper body for striking, but he does occasionally employ kicks. He generally uses simple front and push kicks, though he does execute a spinning hook kick and several side kicks when fighting the League of Shadows in Batman Begins. These are fairly basic kicks that are taught in many martial arts.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QdXqtLMz/kicks.gif)

The Nolan Batman is explicitly stated to be a practitioner of Ninjutsu. We see him learning these techniques from Ra's in the first half of Batman Begins.  When training with the League of Shadows, Bruce wears a shinobi shozoku, which is the traditional attire of a ninja. He's shown to use stealth, smoke pellets, ninja bracers and throwing blades throughout his career as Batman.

On the subject of throwing blades, the Nolan Batman is clearly skilled at Shurikenjutsu.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zDwytyJs/shuriken.gif)

When Bruce duels against Ra's on the ice he uses a Japanese katana and holds it with a two-handed grip. This is typical of modern day Kendo. But since they're using real blades and not bamboo swords, or shinai, then I'm going to list this as Kenjutsu.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GtTKJcC3/sw-ords.gif)

Bruce is also clearly proficient at boxing.

(https://i.postimg.cc/25kd5K42/boxing-2.gif)

So that gives us Ninjutsu, Keysi, barroom brawling, Kenjutsu, Shurikenjutsu, Wing Chun, Five Animals Kung Fu (Tiger and Panther), Ju-Jitsu, Thai boxing, Silat, Krav Maga, Jeet Kune Do and boxing. Baleman is proficient in over a dozen different styles, most of which have been confirmed by the stunt team or in the films' dialogue. That means that the Nolan Batman displays the broadest range of fighting techniques of any live action Batman to date. On paper he's the most skilled fighter among the movie Batmen. Batfleck obviously faced the strongest and most power opponents (Superman, Doomsday, Parademons, etc), but Baleman defeated the most skilled (the League of Shadows, Ra's al Ghul, Bane).

Overall, the Nolan Batman has a well-rounded strategic fighting style that encompasses strikes, throws and submission holds, as well as both armed and unarmed techniques. He makes good use of stealth, weaponry and his environment to give himself an advantage in combat, and he's shown to be capable of handling multiple opponents at the same time. There aren't any obvious weaknesses in the combination of styles he employs, though we can perhaps identify some weaknesses in the way he implements them.

One would be his overreliance on hammerfist and elbow strikes, which risks making his moveset predictable. His method of allowing himself to take hits – of compromising defence in favour of attack – is also flawed, as was demonstrated when he went up against Bane. This technique is fine when dealing with low-level goons who can be kayoed with one punch, but it's less effective against fighters who can take a hit and keep on coming.

Another weakness I've noticed is how little he uses his feet in combat. Baleman only ever performs low and mid-level kicks, never once raising his feet to connect with an upright adversary's face. I understand that the fights were choreographed this way for the sake of realism, but it doesn't change the fact that all the other cinematic Batmen were shown to be proficient at high-level kicking techniques while the Nolan Batman isn't.

I've also noticed that while Baleman does often shield his head and torso, he tends to leave his lower body unprotected. The Burton Batman was shown to use his shin guards to protect his legs against low-level attacks, but I don't remember ever seeing the Nolan Batman do this. His enemies exploited this gap in his defences on several occasions. Ra's was able to kick his legs out from under him when they fought on the train in Batman Begins...

(https://i.postimg.cc/hvgtRR8D/ra-s.gif)

...the Joker was able to knock him to the ground by striking his legs with a metal bar...

(https://i.postimg.cc/0Q7y4ywX/joker.gif)

...and Bane was able to knock him down by punching his knee during their first fight in The Dark Knight Rises.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zntpH5Q/bane.gif)

So I'd say Baleman's lower body is clearly his weak spot when it comes to both attack and defence. He also shares the limited agility of the Burton Batman and relies on his grapple gun and cape glider for most of his manoeuvrability.

But how would he do in combat against the villains from the other Batman movies? Is there anyone in the Burton or Schumacher films that might give him trouble? What about the Batmen themselves? Baleman might display the broadest range of martial arts techniques, but the skill gap isn't so big that the Burton, Schumacher and DCEU Batmen couldn't present a good challenge. The DCEU Batman in particular is very close in skill level, and the Burton version isn't too far off. Could Baleman's talents prevail over the metahuman strength and durability of Bat-Keaton and Batfleck, or against the gravity-defying agility of the Schumacher Batman?
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Thu, 7 Jan 2021, 21:36
The baggage I'm bringing to this is my distaste for high kicks/roundhouse kicks. Basically, my view is that if you aim a kick anywhere above your opponent's waist, you're taking an awful risk for at best a 50/50 chance of scoring damage... and a worse than 50/50 chance of your opponent countering with fight-ending blows to your groin, knee or solar plexus. Maybe some fighters out there can get away with high kicks but I insist that most people should stick with low kicks (if you must kick at all!) and mid/high hand strikes in a combat situation.

Also, my entire philosophy on combat can be boiled down to "Don't move a muscle until you absolutely have to". Which, perhaps, creates biases for some Batmen over others, hmm.

Anyway, as we've worked through this series, I've wondered if we shouldn't account for mindset and psychology in fighting styles.

For starters, on paper, Bale's Batman should be able to defeat Keaton's Batman. But Bale's Batman has a stated preference for preserving life while Keaton's Batman doesn't. So if it meant the difference between winning and losing, Keaton might use lethal force while Bale probably wouldn't. Bale's height and reach advantage would benefit him, esp at the start of the match. But if Keaton decides it's time to cut his losses and plow through, Bale is in a world of trouble. Both Batmen are shown to be capable of using their environments to their advantage but I think Keaton has an edge here.

Same thing applies to Affleck. If Affleck squares off with TDKRises Bale, I think he'd have a much easier time. But if it's BB or TDK-era Bale, Affleck will have one hell of a fight ahead of him. Here again tho, mindset figures into it. Affleck from BVS won't hesitate to hit to kill. That means something in this fight. Affleck's armor allows him to survive multiple gunshot wounds with nary a scratch whereas Bale's TDK uniform is explicitly more vulnerable to knives and gunfire and visibly vulnerable to blunt physical trauma. I think Affleck would recognize his opponent's vulnerabilities and exploit them to maximum effect. A ground-and-pound strategy was devastatingly effective against Bale when Bane employed it and I think Affleck would glom onto that eventually as well.

Affleck's age works against him less than Bale's TDKRises age works against Bale. Sheer stamina might be enough to propel BVS Affleck to victory over TDKRises Bale.

All that said, I do not believe Clooney's Batman could defeat Bale's Batman. Bale has a wide range of disciplines and schools under his belt while Clooney basically brings together a fusion of Taekwondo and karate. Those are both effective schools in how Clooney uses them but I can't envision that they'd put him over top in a fight with Bale.

But even if we project all of Kilmer's fighting skills onto Clooney, I still think Bale comes out on top. A lot of Bale's movements and footwork are economies of energy and balance. Bale simply has an overall more minimalist fighting style, especially when fighting a single opponent. Bale seems to intuitively understand how important it is to conserve his strength. Bane chides him about that but, honestly, Bale started off that fight pretty conservatively and only started flailing in desperation. For being as out of shape as he was, Bale still lasted a hell of a long time against Bane in their first match. That should tell us quite a lot about his staying power.

Kilmer, however, famously overextended himself, employed all manner of flashy kicks and flips. Those all look great on camera but they're wasteful, energy-draining moves that don't produce any tactical advantage. I think Bale would recognize that and rope a dope his opponent into exhaustion before shutting him down. The art of fighting without fighting and all that.

As far as Adam West is concerned, well, I never bet against him.

My pet theory is that TDK-era Bale doesn't easily defeat Bane but he still defeats Bane in the end. That's Bale at the top of his form, clearly in his prime and I daresay Bale in TDK can probably defeat at least 99% of the entire world when it comes to hand to hand combat.

Bale against Schumacher's Bane is interesting because he's kind of similar to Nolan's Bane but much bigger and much stronger. Still, the mask remains Jeep's weakness. Bale has already demonstrated his ability to figure that out in TDKRises and I think he would figure it out against Jeep Bane. Unlike Hardy tho, Bale will take considerable damage from Jeep before putting him down. I just don't see Schumacher's Bane going down without one hell of a fight.

Bale against Mr. Freeze is... a challenge. On the one hand, Freeze isn't really a brawler to begin with. That advantages Bale. But Freeze also wears bulky armor which greatly enhances his strength, which advantages Freeze. Theatricality and deception might be the deciding factors here tho. Freeze repeatedly shows himself to be caught off-guard by the unexpected (Batman bursting through the skylight, Robin busting through the double doors). I think Bale might try softening Freeze up with T&D before making his big push.

If it's straight hand to hand tho, I still have to give the edge to Bale. If he found Bane's mask weakness (and he did), he'd eventually discover a weakness in Freeze's armor.

Oddly enough, one fight where I'd be greatly concerned about Bale is with the swordsman from B89. Bale's wrist gauntlets would protect him somewhat from the whirling blades but the lack of shin gauntlets combined with Bale's below-the-waist weaknesses could spell disaster for him. If he can't disable the blades in short order somehow (and quickly!), he's in for a world of pain.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: The Dark Knight on Fri, 8 Jan 2021, 01:02
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 19:22
The most obvious one to start with here is the Keysi Fighting Method, often abbreviated as KFM. This is the foundation of Bruce's martial philosophy in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, though the stunt team modified it for The Dark Knight Rises to allow for the fact that Bruce was meant to be older and slower. The classic KFM stance involves holding the arms up to protect the head with the elbows projecting forwards.
It's not my ideal martial art for Batman, but I appreciate how Keysi is so undeniably unique to Bale's Batman. It's his thing.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 21:36
My pet theory is that TDK-era Bale doesn't easily defeat Bane but he still defeats Bane in the end. That's Bale at the top of his form, clearly in his prime and I daresay Bale in TDK can probably defeat at least 99% of the entire world when it comes to hand to hand combat.
I think the fight would be similar to their final encounter in the streets, although with TDK Baleman only being about 20% better than his aged TDK Rises incarnation. I don't see any encounter he had with Hardy's Bane ever being a walkover. 

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 19:22But how would he do in combat against the villains from the other Batman movies? Is there anyone in the Burton or Schumacher films that might give him trouble? What about the Batmen themselves?
I think he'd beat all the 1989-1997 villains except Freeze.

He'd probably beat Kilmer and Clooney. Keaton would take punishment but he's a strong survivor, and could ultimately end up winning. I don't see Baleman lasting long against Affleck. West's Batman was incredibly strong, an expert escape artist and truly never gave up. I don't think it's farfetched to say West could find a way to get the job done against Bale.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 8 Jan 2021, 17:51
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 21:36The baggage I'm bringing to this is my distaste for high kicks/roundhouse kicks. Basically, my view is that if you aim a kick anywhere above your opponent's waist, you're taking an awful risk for at best a 50/50 chance of scoring damage... and a worse than 50/50 chance of your opponent countering with fight-ending blows to your groin, knee or solar plexus. Maybe some fighters out there can get away with high kicks but I insist that most people should stick with low kicks (if you must kick at all!) and mid/high hand strikes in a combat situation.

Very true. Kicks to the shin or knee, or knees to the groin, can be very effective. But in most real fights, elevating your leg above waist level is merely going to put you off balance and offer your opponent a window of attack. It can work, but most of the time it's not worth the risk. I suppose the stunt team in the Nolan trilogy were trying to reflect that reality, although I suspect Bale's own limitations might also have been a factor since he insisted on performing most of the fight scenes himself.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 21:36For starters, on paper, Bale's Batman should be able to defeat Keaton's Batman. But Bale's Batman has a stated preference for preserving life while Keaton's Batman doesn't. So if it meant the difference between winning and losing, Keaton might use lethal force while Bale probably wouldn't. Bale's height and reach advantage would benefit him, esp at the start of the match. But if Keaton decides it's time to cut his losses and plow through, Bale is in a world of trouble. Both Batmen are shown to be capable of using their environments to their advantage but I think Keaton has an edge here.

I thought I'd wait for others to share their views before outlining my own opinion on how Baleman would handle the characters from the other movies, but on this occasion my take on these matchups is exactly the same as yours.

Beginning with the Burton Batman, I imagine a fight between Baleman and Keaton's Bruce would be similar to the Bane fights from TDKR. Keaton was 5'9 in his youth, the same height as Hardy. However, promotional materials list Bane as being 6'0 in TDKR, and Knox describes Batman as being 6'0 in B89, so I guess both characters are meant to be six foot in-universe. Either way, they're the same height. Both employ an economic style of fighting to avoid needlessly expending energy, and both display a high level of durability and metahuman strength. Bat-Keaton doesn't share Bane's immunity to pain, but he also doesn't have the vulnerability of the mask. On top of that he has armour and weapons that Bane lacks.

Baleman's best bet would be to exploit his broader range of martial arts techniques by using clinch holds to immobilise Bat-Keaton. If he could trap him with a joint lock, then he might be able to finish him. But to be honest, I'm leaning towards the Burton Batman on this one. He's more ruthless, and he's the only Batman who has a projectile weapon built into his glove for the express purpose of hitting enemies in the groin (that's not going to go down well with Baleman's lack of lower body defence). I reckon they'd stalemate each other for a while before deploying weapons from their utility belts. But where Bale would start throwing smoke pellets, Keaton would start hurling napalm capsules. If it was purely a matter of skill, and they were fighting out of costume and without weapons, then I might favour the Nolan Batman. But factor in their weaponry and Keaton's willingness to use lethal force and do whatever it takes to end the battle, and I think the Burton Batman would prevail. It'd be a close fight though.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 21:36Same thing applies to Affleck. If Affleck squares off with TDKRises Bale, I think he'd have a much easier time. But if it's BB or TDK-era Bale, Affleck will have one hell of a fight ahead of him. Here again tho, mindset figures into it. Affleck from BVS won't hesitate to hit to kill. That means something in this fight. Affleck's armor allows him to survive multiple gunshot wounds with nary a scratch whereas Bale's TDK uniform is explicitly more vulnerable to knives and gunfire and visibly vulnerable to blunt physical trauma. I think Affleck would recognize his opponent's vulnerabilities and exploit them to maximum effect. A ground-and-pound strategy was devastatingly effective against Bale when Bane employed it and I think Affleck would glom onto that eventually as well.

Affleck's age works against him less than Bale's TDKRises age works against Bale. Sheer stamina might be enough to propel BVS Affleck to victory over TDKRises Bale.

Indeed, Affleck's Batman aged better than Bale's and wasn't as compromised by past injuries. The skill gap between these two is marginal and Batfleck is proficient in a sufficiently wide range of martial arts that he could counter anything Baleman throws at him. He also displays superior speed and agility and is more ruthless. He might be stronger too, though I'm not 100% sure of that. I'd say Baleman does have a slight skill advantage, and he's durable enough that he could take a beating from Batfleck and keep fighting. But ultimately Batfleck would wear him down and use lethal methods that Bale himself would be reluctant or unwilling to deploy. Another good fight, but Batfleck wins.

On the subject of ground-and-pound, I almost listed that as one of Bale's fighting techniques. But when I went back and re-watched his first fight with Bane in TDKR I realised that he never really succeeds in using it. He tries pinning Bane and hitting him, but Bane immediately reverses their positions and starts wailing on him. Come to think of it, Ra's and Joker also succeeded in pinning Baleman. So ground fighting could be another area of his fighting style that needs work.

Keaton only ever got pinned down once, and understandably he wasn't in a hurry to free himself.

(https://townsquare.media/site/442/files/2013/05/Batman-Returns.jpg?w=980&q=75)

We'll be seeing new footage of Affleck and Keaton in action over the next couple of years and the fight scenes in those movies will probably expand their martial arts skills. Right now, I'd say the DCEU Batman would likely beat the Burton Batman in a fight. But that could change after The Flash is released...

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 21:36As far as Adam West is concerned, well, I never bet against him.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  8 Jan  2021, 01:02West's Batman was incredibly strong, an expert escape artist and truly never gave up. I don't think it's farfetched to say West could find a way to get the job done against Bale.

Oh boy, the West Batman. I am planning to make a thread like this about him at some point, though it'll be fairly short and a lot of it will be concerned with noting strength, speed and durability feats from the TV show. West's physical feats range far beyond those of any other live action Batman and straight into cartoon territory. Fighting him would be like fighting Popeye. He'd stand a very good chance of stomping every character from the later films, but I'll come back to that subject at a later time.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 21:36Bale against Schumacher's Bane is interesting because he's kind of similar to Nolan's Bane but much bigger and much stronger. Still, the mask remains Jeep's weakness. Bale has already demonstrated his ability to figure that out in TDKRises and I think he would figure it out against Jeep Bane. Unlike Hardy tho, Bale will take considerable damage from Jeep before putting him down. I just don't see Schumacher's Bane going down without one hell of a fight.

Bale against Mr. Freeze is... a challenge. On the one hand, Freeze isn't really a brawler to begin with. That advantages Bale. But Freeze also wears bulky armor which greatly enhances his strength, which advantages Freeze. Theatricality and deception might be the deciding factors here tho. Freeze repeatedly shows himself to be caught off-guard by the unexpected (Batman bursting through the skylight, Robin busting through the double doors). I think Bale might try softening Freeze up with T&D before making his big push.

If it's straight hand to hand tho, I still have to give the edge to Bale. If he found Bane's mask weakness (and he did), he'd eventually discover a weakness in Freeze's armor.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  8 Jan  2021, 01:02I think he'd beat all the 1989-1997 villains except Freeze.

Mr. Freeze and Jeep Bane are the villains from the Burton-Schumacher series that I think Baleman would struggle against the most. He obviously outclasses them in terms of speed and skill, but their superhuman strength and durability surpass those of any villain he's ever faced. Freeze is basically a human tank. He takes direct gunfire at close range and the bullets don't even slow him down.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYnVqRrB/freeze1.gif)

His fighting style is clunky and basic, but his strength is incredible.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SNpTRzzN/freeze2.gif)

Unless Baleman can identify his one weakness and exploit it, then I don't see how he can put him on ice. The Schumacher Batman unloaded everything he had on Freeze, jumping around and hitting him from every angle, but in the end Victor caught him in a stranglehold and would have killed him if Batman hadn't whipped out the bat-heater. Without that device, Batman wouldn't have been able to send him to the cooler.

Jeep Bane is presumably even stronger than Freeze, and he demonstrates wrestling skills that Victor doesn't have. He could prove an even tougher physical opponent for the Nolan Batman. But like Freeze, he has one weakness that can bring him to his knees. The Nolan Batman didn't identify Hardy Bane's mask as a weakness during their first fight, so I'm sceptical he'd go for Jeep Bane's Venom supply. Not unless he had advanced knowledge of what he was dealing with.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 21:36Oddly enough, one fight where I'd be greatly concerned about Bale is with the swordsman from B89. Bale's wrist gauntlets would protect him somewhat from the whirling blades but the lack of shin gauntlets combined with Bale's below-the-waist weaknesses could spell disaster for him. If he can't disable the blades in short order somehow (and quickly!), he's in for a world of pain.

That's a good point. At first I dismissed the swordsman, reasoning that since Baleman defeated four League of Shadows warriors he wouldn't have any trouble handling just one swordsman. However, Baleman had trained in the same fighting style as the League of Shadows members, but he didn't necessarily train in the sword fighting techniques used by the Joker goon (played by Muay Thai expert Master Sken). The swordsman directed numerous strikes towards his opponent's lower body. The Burton Batman was equipped to deal with these on account of his fighting style and armour, but I'm not sure the Nolan Batman would be. Baleman is trained in Thai boxing, but we never see him perform shin blocks like the Burton Batman does.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTSkft65/shin1.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/431BvTNj/shin2.png)

Even if Baleman's armour could prevent the blade from penetrating his flesh – and I'm pretty sure it would – the impact might still be enough to knock him down or at least stagger him. If it were just that one example of Bane striking his knee in TDKR, then we could chalk this weakness up to his advancing age and prior injuries. But the fact is the same thing happened in BB and TDK. All three films in Nolan's trilogy show Batman getting floored by attacks to his lower body. He doesn't defend his legs and is clearly vulnerable in that area. By contrast, the Burton Batman's kickboxing training allowed him to block and absorb numerous attacks to his lower body while sustaining minimal damage.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PqHS8qhm/1.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kG2sd6Fd/2.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hvNr4DpQ/3.gif)

I still think the Nolan Batman would beat the swordsman, but not with the same ease that Keaton did. He'd probably break the first blade with his bracers, then get staggered by a low blow from the second blade. Eventually he'd intercept the second blade and break that too, then finish off the swordsman with a hammerfist to the face.

On the other hand, I think Baleman would perform better against the final cathedral goon than the Burton Batman did. His knowledge of Ju-Jitsu would allow him to counter the Ray Charles goon's Judo when it came to grappling, and he'd be better equipped to escape from the chokeholds than Bat-Keaton was.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Thu, 14 Jan 2021, 03:24
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 19:22
The most obvious one to start with here is the Keysi Fighting Method, often abbreviated as KFM. This is the foundation of Bruce's martial philosophy in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, though the stunt team modified it for The Dark Knight Rises to allow for the fact that Bruce was meant to be older and slower. The classic KFM stance involves holding the arms up to protect the head with the elbows projecting forwards.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/d6/29/84d62947f700b6d765196a3276465296.jpg)

The Nolan Batman adopts this stance in numerous fight scenes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKzcGvz4/kfm.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZK92VScd/kfm2.gif)
Didn't want to write War & Peace in my other post. But this is one element of the Nolan Batman's fighting repertoire that's always sort of bugged me.

In its time, Keysi was a pretty innovative and original fighting style to use in any film. The problem that I see is that it's not a completely logical system for arguably any Batman.

The elbows-up default fighting posture of KFM is meant to protect the practitioner's head from trauma. But the whole point of Batman's cowl in-universe for the Nolan trilogy is protecting the head. So a posture of protecting the head is redundant.

Worse, it enhances Bale's below-the-waist vulnerabilities. KFM protects something that's already protected while exposing a massive weak spot. Several Taekwondo postures allow for minimizing below-the-waist vulnerability while minimizing the below-the-waist target area from a frontal assault.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/iBt_q_uJc_A/maxresdefault.jpg)
Horse stance. This posture lowers the student's center of gravity while allowing him to shift his weight and balance as necessary to counter the opponent's movements.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1rLZEBaTThI/VNDZdRfNMFI/AAAAAAAAAUk/uCJv5P2B_qo/s1600/stan.jpg)
This posture is one I always associated more with Shaolin than with Taekwondo. In fact, before seeing this picture, I have literally never seen this posture in a Taekwondo context. Nevertheless, it still offers some tactical response to a frontal assault (but not ground-and-pound) (and I imagine it would be impractical when fighting multiple opponents from multiple angles).

(https://taekwondoworld.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/01-Junbi.gif)
The junbi posture would be an improvement over the default KFM posture for Bale. This is meant to illustrate the movements into junbi; these are not separate postures but rather they are the movements the student uses to assume junbi. From junbi, the student can shift into horse stance or the below forward stance with relative ease, relatively quickly.

In a tournament, I once went from junbi into the splits to avoid a roundhouse kick and then rose from the ground to drive a punch into my opponent's chest. I was quite flexible back then. Inasmuch as it was a tournament, my move was considered a "knock down" for me and so my opponent was awarded the point. But, if nothing else, I proved to myself that junbi is quite versatile and allows for unpredictability. My opponent expected me to shift into horse stance to allow me to maintain my balance while blocking his roundhouse kick. He was utterly unprepared for the shift into splits and counter-strike.

If it helps, the tournament was conducted on smooth, slick flooring similar to a basketball court, which is how I was able to shift into the splits so quickly. In a more conventional setting that doesn't have slick floors and outside controlled tournament settings, going into the splits is one helluva risk and one I do not recommend.

(https://img.pixers.pics/pho_wat(s3:700/FO/17/09/47/5/700_FO1709475_f74355e21d81b04cc54849c09ab1ab8e.jpg,487,700,cms:2018/10/5bd1b6b8d04b8_220x50-watermark.png,over,267,650,jpg)/wall-murals-forward-stance-low-block-taekwondo.jpg.jpg)
This posture might be the overall best... for a student not wearing a cape. It minimizes targets below-the-waist, it has a built in defense against the exposed low target and it is already positioned for a counter-blow with (in the diagram) the student's right fist. It is uniquely vulnerable to a krav maga knee-kick but that technique is probably only known by 1 in 100 (if that) possible opponents you might face so I'd call this posture a calculated risk for Batman. In the final analysis, every possible beginning posture from any school is vulnerable to something anyway.

Frankly, none of these postures account for attacks from behind or the sides (except possibly the horse stance, but I think that would technically be a modification of the original technique). These are very much one-on-one defensive postures which, used properly, would allow the student to defend virtually an attack and counter many of them. These seem like very logical postures to adopt when the student's head is already protected and the student has a known weakness for below-the-waist attacks.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 16 Jan 2021, 19:10
You've highlighted a logical weakness in the Nolan Batman's use of KFM. It makes sense for Bruce to use it before he gets the suit. But the emphasis it places on protecting the head and upper body, which are traditionally the most heavily armoured areas of Batman's costume, renders it somewhat redundant once he suits up.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 14 Jan  2021, 03:24
(https://img.pixers.pics/pho_wat(s3:700/FO/17/09/47/5/700_FO1709475_f74355e21d81b04cc54849c09ab1ab8e.jpg,487,700,cms:2018/10/5bd1b6b8d04b8_220x50-watermark.png,over,267,650,jpg)/wall-murals-forward-stance-low-block-taekwondo.jpg.jpg)
This posture might be the overall best... for a student not wearing a cape. It minimizes targets below-the-waist, it has a built in defense against the exposed low target and it is already positioned for a counter-blow with (in the diagram) the student's right fist. It is uniquely vulnerable to a krav maga knee-kick but that technique is probably only known by 1 in 100 (if that) possible opponents you might face so I'd call this posture a calculated risk for Batman. In the final analysis, every possible beginning posture from any school is vulnerable to something anyway.

My knowledge of Taekwondo stances is entirely limited to what I've learnt in this thread, but looking at the following publicity shot of Keaton (I assume this is Keaton, but it could just be his head superimposed over Dave Lea's body), is it possible he's attempting to strike this stance here? I know it's not exactly the same, but the positioning of his arm over his advanced leg is similar.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wMcnxLfV/keaton.png)

We established in the thread on the Burton Batman's fighting style that the type of kickboxing Keaton trained in was most likely a fusion of Taekwondo and Shotokan Karate. Perhaps he (or his stunt double) adopted one of the stances he was taught for this photo, then altered it in accordance with the photographer's directions. From what I remember, he never uses a stance like this in the actual film.

Returning to the Nolan Batman, the consensus in this thread is that he would beat the Schumacher Batman in a fight. But here's another scenario: the Nolan Batman vs. the Schumacher Batman and Robin at the same time. Think of the Ozymandias vs. Rorschach and Nite Owl II fight scene from Watchmen (2009), only with these guys as the combatants.

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4G3tjTC/nolan-schumacher.png)

This is prime Baleman from BB and TDK rather than the broken down version from TDKR, and the Schumacher Batman here is a composite of Kilmer and Clooney that combines both of their skills, strengths and weaknesses.

I believe Baleman could take either of these characters in a one-on-one fight, but I'm doubtful he could beat them simultaneously. It all depends on how well the Schumacher Batman and Robin function as a team. Robin could be a useful asset when he followed Batman's lead, such as when they fought side by side at the museum or the auction in B&R. At other times his hotheadedness made him a liability, like when he raced ahead on Claw Island and was captured by Two-Face or when he got frozen by Freeze. If the Nolan Batman could exploit Robin's carelessness, he might be able to take him out of the equation early in the fight or else exploit him as a distraction against the Schumacher Batman.

Robin's not up to Baleman's skill level, but he trumps him in terms of agility and has some flashy moves that might just catch him off guard.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Dz06pD9F/Robin.gif)

All things considered, I'm leaning heavily towards team Schumacher on this one. For a bonus round, let's even the sides out and give Baleman Hathaway's Catwoman for an ally. On the surface I don't think she's too much of a threat to team Schumacher, but take into account the fact that Robin was easily distracted by attractive women and she might prove very useful.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Sat, 16 Jan 2021, 22:38
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 16 Jan  2021, 19:10Returning to the Nolan Batman, the consensus in this thread is that he would beat the Schumacher Batman in a fight. But here's another scenario: the Nolan Batman vs. the Schumacher Batman and Robin at the same time. Think of the Ozymandias vs. Rorschach and Nite Owl II fight scene from Watchmen (2009), only with these guys as the combatants.

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4G3tjTC/nolan-schumacher.png)

This is prime Baleman from BB and TDK rather than the broken down version from TDKR, and the Schumacher Batman here is a composite of Kilmer and Clooney that combines both of their skills, strengths and weaknesses.

I believe Baleman could take either of these characters in a one-on-one fight, but I'm doubtful he could beat them simultaneously. It all depends on how well the Schumacher Batman and Robin function as a team. Robin could be a useful asset when he followed Batman's lead, such as when they fought side by side at the museum or the auction in B&R. At other times his hotheadedness made him a liability, like when he raced ahead on Claw Island and was captured by Two-Face or when he got frozen by Freeze. If the Nolan Batman could exploit Robin's carelessness, he might be able to take him out of the equation early in the fight or else exploit him as a distraction against the Schumacher Batman.

Robin's not up to Baleman's skill level, but he trumps him in terms of agility and has some flashy moves that might just catch him off guard.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Dz06pD9F/Robin.gif)

All things considered, I'm leaning heavily towards team Schumacher on this one. For a bonus round, let's even the sides out and give Baleman Hathaway's Catwoman for an ally. On the surface I don't think she's too much of a threat to team Schumacher, but take into account the fact that Robin was easily distracted by attractive women and she might prove very useful.
A bout between Bale and the Schumacher team is interesting. I'm not prepared to count Bale out right away.

Location, location, location. If the fight takes place in an open space, it's possible that Kilmer and Robin could overwhelm Bale's defenses with acrobatics and whatnot. So I think the key to victory would be Bale selecting a relatively enclosed space similar in size to a hallway. That would cut down on any teamwork Kilmer and Robin might attempt while also eliminating their attempts to flank him.

From there, I think theatricality and deception would be the next step. Kilmer would probably see through T&D easily but I have to assume Robin would be caught off-guard by it.

As I see it, the key in this battle is immobilizing Robin as early as possible. Once Bale isolates Kilmer, well, we can guess how that ends.

But if it's just straight up skill to skill, no question, Bale loses. His only hope is to use tactics and strategy to gain the upper hand. Bale's showdown with the League Of Shadows ninjas in BB and capturing Lao from LSI Holdings in TDK make me reasonably confident that Bale could figure out a way to split Kilmer and Robin up.

But if Bale has Hathaway in his back pocket, yeah, it's definitely his victory.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: The Dark Knight on Mon, 18 Jan 2021, 08:17
I'm talking to the martial arts masters here, so any idea what style Pattinson is using in these GIFS?

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/c28bf70f9c8e0bc17265a632c584cfce/fb3371346c1bc585-4c/s540x810/30d839bb64ec6354da0ac0741434b72ca9fb5a55.gifv)

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/163188df149e8662e18815373e93bc52/07767066c021a827-7e/s540x810/941b0ebab2bb5119f460e6b74a1bdb5eae21f1e9.gifv)

An early predictions as to how he would fare against other Batmen, based on these few seconds?
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Mon, 18 Jan 2021, 17:28
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 18 Jan  2021, 08:17
I'm talking to the martial arts masters here, so any idea what style Pattinson is using in these GIFS?

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/c28bf70f9c8e0bc17265a632c584cfce/fb3371346c1bc585-4c/s540x810/30d839bb64ec6354da0ac0741434b72ca9fb5a55.gifv)

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/163188df149e8662e18815373e93bc52/07767066c021a827-7e/s540x810/941b0ebab2bb5119f460e6b74a1bdb5eae21f1e9.gifv)

An early predictions as to how he would fare against other Batmen, based on these few seconds?
I will defer to SN on this. But the first gif is too brief to rly show much of which school Pattinson is using. It could be any of a number of things.

The second gif reminds me of clinch-fighting, where a student attempts a clinch-hold to partially immobilize an opponent while counter-striking hard and repeatedly. It's sort of an MMA thing that can be used by either boxers, Muay Thai fighters or what have you. Realistically, once the clinch is initiated, Pattinson could use punches, elbow strikes, knee-kicks or whatever to subdue his opponent. The fact that he chose punching to do so is telling, I think.

I went on the record in some thread (Keaton's fighting style?) with my belief that old school boxing would probably be anybody's best bet with irl combat in 90% of cases. I'm not saying Reeves agrees with me there but the punches mean something.

As to the philosophy behind the punches, Pattinson seems focused on subduing opponents as quickly as possible. And brutality is pretty much the only non-lethal way of getting there. His speed and obvious strength displayed in the second gif make him a threat to virtually all Batmen we've discussed. Based on the second gif, Bale's protective cowl will be of considerable help to him but when you get knocked down, you get knocked down, period.

I want to see more of Pattinson's moves but so far he's got speed, immense strength and solid balance. Any way you care to slice it, he's highly dangerous and not to be trifled with.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 18 Jan 2021, 18:14
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 16 Jan  2021, 22:38
A bout between Bale and the Schumacher team is interesting. I'm not prepared to count Bale out right away.

Location, location, location. If the fight takes place in an open space, it's possible that Kilmer and Robin could overwhelm Bale's defenses with acrobatics and whatnot. So I think the key to victory would be Bale selecting a relatively enclosed space similar in size to a hallway. That would cut down on any teamwork Kilmer and Robin might attempt while also eliminating their attempts to flank him.

From there, I think theatricality and deception would be the next step. Kilmer would probably see through T&D easily but I have to assume Robin would be caught off-guard by it.

As I see it, the key in this battle is immobilizing Robin as early as possible. Once Bale isolates Kilmer, well, we can guess how that ends.

But if it's just straight up skill to skill, no question, Bale loses. His only hope is to use tactics and strategy to gain the upper hand. Bale's showdown with the League Of Shadows ninjas in BB and capturing Lao from LSI Holdings in TDK make me reasonably confident that Bale could figure out a way to split Kilmer and Robin up.

But if Bale has Hathaway in his back pocket, yeah, it's definitely his victory.

I really should have specified which suit the Schumacher Batman is wearing, since that could be a deciding factor here. The Schumacher Batman and Robin don't use stealth techniques the way the other Batmen do, and therefore might be susceptible to Baleman's theatricality and deception. However, if the Schumacher Batman is wearing his sonar suit then that would effectively render the Nolan Batman's stealth techniques useless. He'd be able to see through any darkness or smoke that Baleman might deploy against him.

Unless of course Baleman used his EMP gadget to take out the lights. Presumably the pulse would also knock out the electrics in the Schumacher Batman's sonar suit (unless it was insulated against EMP attacks), reducing its effectiveness to that of an ordinary batsuit.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 18 Jan  2021, 08:17
I'm talking to the martial arts masters here, so any idea what style Pattinson is using in these GIFS?

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/c28bf70f9c8e0bc17265a632c584cfce/fb3371346c1bc585-4c/s540x810/30d839bb64ec6354da0ac0741434b72ca9fb5a55.gifv)

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/163188df149e8662e18815373e93bc52/07767066c021a827-7e/s540x810/941b0ebab2bb5119f460e6b74a1bdb5eae21f1e9.gifv)

An early predictions as to how he would fare against other Batmen, based on these few seconds?

Catwoman's fighting style here definitely looks like the Brazilian martial art of Capoeira.

As for Battinson, normally I'd say it was impossible to tell from such short clips. However, the fighting stance he uses in that first gif – placing his weight on his back foot, fists clenched to tense his forearm muscles, and arms raised to guard his head – resembles the fighting stance I was taught in Ju-Jitsu classes. So I'm guessing he's trained in some form of Ju-Jitsu, be it Japanese or Brazilian.

Also note how in the second gif he keeps hold of his opponent's weapon hand to incapacitate him. As colors says, that's a clinch-fighting move. Batman punches him once, follows this up with a backhand, then jerks his opponent's arm upwards to apply pressure to the elbow joint before hitting him a third time. That's a Ju-Jitsu technique.

The final two punches he lands on the thug who attacked him...

(https://i.postimg.cc/c1MmRJkj/battinson.gif)

...demonstrates some good ol' fashioned ground-and-pound action, such as you'd expect from an MMA fighter, while those haymakers he was throwing earlier suggest he's trained in boxing. If I'm right, then his fighting style will likely be similar to that of the Nolan Batman.

The fact he was able to read Catwoman's body language and evade her attack without being tagged indicates he might also have some familiarity with the Capoeira style she was using. Though I'm doubtful he'll employ similar techniques himself, simply because his cape would get in the way.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 18 Jan  2021, 17:28As to the philosophy behind the punches, Pattinson seems focused on subduing opponents as quickly as possible. And brutality is pretty much the only non-lethal way of getting there. His speed and obvious strength displayed in the second gif make him a threat to virtually all Batmen we've discussed. Based on the second gif, Bale's protective cowl will be of considerable help to him but when you get knocked down, you get knocked down, period.

I want to see more of Pattinson's moves but so far he's got speed, immense strength and solid balance. Any way you care to slice it, he's highly dangerous and not to be trifled with.

His striking speed there already looks faster than that of the Schumacher and Nolan Batmen. By my count, he lands seven or eight punches in about four and a half seconds.

A psychological factor can be observed in the way Pattinson doesn't allow himself to get hit in these clips. He dodges Catwoman's attack and blocks the attack by the other guy. This might not be indicative of how he always fights, but if he consistently evades and blocks attacks throughout the movie then that demonstrates one way his fighting style diverges from Baleman's KFM.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Mon, 18 Jan 2021, 19:20
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 16 Jan  2021, 19:10
My knowledge of Taekwondo stances is entirely limited to what I've learnt in this thread, but looking at the following publicity shot of Keaton (I assume this is Keaton, but it could just be his head superimposed over Dave Lea's body), is it possible he's attempting to strike this stance here? I know it's not exactly the same, but the positioning of his arm over his advanced leg is similar.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wMcnxLfV/keaton.png)

We established in the thread on the Burton Batman's fighting style that the type of kickboxing Keaton trained in was most likely a fusion of Taekwondo and Shotokan Karate. Perhaps he (or his stunt double) adopted one of the stances he was taught for this photo, then altered it in accordance with the photographer's directions. From what I remember, he never uses a stance like this in the actual film.
Yeah, I assume he's following the photographer's directions there. It looks similar to the TKD forward stance but with a photographer's logical preference of wanting to visually balance the pose (one arm up, the other down) and also show off detailing on the costume... a crucial task for any publicity photo.

Except for a modified TKD forward stance (and a very interesting one at that; I think that would be workable for a student wearing a cape), I don't recognize that exact pose from any school.

One thing all these threads have done for me is show how restrictive and burdensome wearing a cape is in combat. I have a whole new respect for the stunt coordinators of these films for designing choreography that works around the limitations imposed by Batman's cape.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 18 Jan 2021, 20:18
I love the cape and wouldn't want to ever see it removed from his costume. But yeah, when you look at it from a functional standpoint it's utterly impractical and liable to get the wearer killed. The most realistic depiction of what it would be like to wear a cape in combat can be found in the 1940s film serials.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbvd38vr/Wilson-Batman.gif)

In the unlikely event that anyone was hoping for a 'Fighting Style of the Lewis Wilson Batman' thread, then this gif is about as comprehensive as I can get.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: The Dark Knight on Tue, 19 Jan 2021, 00:20
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 18 Jan  2021, 18:14
His striking speed there already looks faster than that of the Schumacher and Nolan Batmen. By my count, he lands seven or eight punches in about four and a half seconds.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 18 Jan  2021, 17:28
As to the philosophy behind the punches, Pattinson seems focused on subduing opponents as quickly as possible. And brutality is pretty much the only non-lethal way of getting there. His speed and obvious strength displayed in the second gif make him a threat to virtually all Batmen we've discussed. Based on the second gif, Bale's protective cowl will be of considerable help to him but when you get knocked down, you get knocked down, period.

I want to see more of Pattinson's moves but so far he's got speed, immense strength and solid balance. Any way you care to slice it, he's highly dangerous and not to be trifled with.

Thanks to you both for the responses.

My instant gut feel, based on a few seconds of footage, is that Affleck would be Pattinson's biggest threat in direct combat. If Pattinson was able to maintain that level of intensity while fighting, I even think Keaton would be in serious trouble. He's able to sustain blows, but at that speed? I'm not sure.

Bale's Batman wouldn't be a slouch, especially his BB incarnation. But the point I make for Keaton would also apply to Bale, and I think the Schumacher Batmen. I think Pattinson will be consistently fearsome in the suit, because it seems they're going for a young, wild beast before he becomes a honed weapon.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Fri, 22 Jan 2021, 06:01
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 18 Jan  2021, 20:18
I love the cape and wouldn't want to ever see it removed from his costume. But yeah, when you look at it from a functional standpoint it's utterly impractical and liable to get the wearer killed. The most realistic depiction of what it would be like to wear a cape in combat can be found in the 1940s film serials.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbvd38vr/Wilson-Batman.gif)

In the unlikely event that anyone was hoping for a 'Fighting Style of the Lewis Wilson Batman' thread, then this gif is about as comprehensive as I can get.
On a lark, I checked out various poomsae on YouTube.

Karate generally uses kata; movement patterns to teach the student karate. In taekwondo, it's basically the same thing but they're called poomsae.

Anyway, I remembered that poomsae 4 (yellow belt-level, if that matters to anybody) begins with an interesting posture... which is unfortunately called "double knife hand block". Yes, I'm totally serious, that's what it's called.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2bCmkfA0CQ

Still, that posture looks like it could be of some utility specifically to Bale's Batman. It doesn't go out of its way to protect the head and the defense and counter are already built in to the posture.

In fact, my one criticism of DKHB is the student's weight distribution. I realized that even as a kid, I disagreed with evenly distributing the student's weight as DKBH prescribes. Because having used DKHB in competition, I discovered that even-weight distribution was a crap system and left the student vulnerable to knee kick. So I put the majority of my weight on my back (right) foot and when the opponent's kick came in to my left knee, I simply raised my left foot into a high sidekick and got the guy in the face.

That was controversial, btw, because taekwondo is a school that emphasizes balance and equilibrium. What I did in competition is technically a modification (some would say corruption) of the technique. The judges reluctantly awarded me the point because I'm not the guy who got kicked in the face. But let's face it, they don't approve of a westerner rethinking their centuries old art on the fly.

Maybe this is only interesting to me. But I'm discovering that many taekwondo postures would actually serve Batman quite well. And the taekwondo philosophy of generating power through speed would allow Batman to go on the offensive in ways that more passive schools (I'm looking at you, judo) would not allow.

Honestly, the only thing about taekwondo that wouldn't work for Batman's purposes is the emphasis on high kicks. But the theories behind taekwondo are almost perfect for Batman's tactics and MO. Canonically, Batman has dabbled with all combat forms. I think what Batman would take from taekwondo are most of the postures, virtually all of the philosophy but practically none of the actual moves/kicks.

I'm rambling.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Sat, 5 Jun 2021, 05:29
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 19:22
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/d6/29/84d62947f700b6d765196a3276465296.jpg)
I may have to eat my words here a little bit.

But earlier in this thread, I offered a critique of Baleman's use of KFM from the standpoint that the default posture is elbows-up. This posture is intended to protect the student's head from trauma while giving the student the opportunity for a counter-strike with his elbows.

My critique of that posture for Baleman comes from the fact that his head is already protected. So, elbows-up is arguably redundant. But I then suggested that the posture leaves his torso open to attack... which is particularly bad in his case because in TDK and TDKRises, that area is made more vulnerable. My basic argument was that the default KFM posture was just bad business for Baleman all around.

But one thing I hadn't considered in the MMA-obsessed world we live in is the likely protection that the elbows-up posture offers to Baleman. Choke-slams and ground-and-pound are becoming mor prevalent even among street brawlers these days. And KFM's posture would offer some protection against those attacks. The forearms being raised could create a built-in protection for the neck from being grabbed by an attacker and then forced to the ground.

In any fight today, that's a valid concern. And Baleman is uniquely inoculated against that specific attack whereas other Batmen might be left more vulnerable to it.

Just an observation, nothing more.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 6 Jun 2021, 20:29
That's a good point. I suppose it depends on how strong the gorget is in Batman's armour. I've always assumed that the stiffness of the neck in the Burton Batman's cowl was indicative of the protection it offered, which is why Ray Charles was unable to choke him out with a sleeper move (i.e. apply pressure to the carotid artery to limit the flow of oxygen to the brain) when he got him in this hold.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HjGz2CqW/bat-choke.png)

The neck on the Batman Begins costume looks like it's similarly well protected, while the neck area on the TDK and TDKR costumes appears more lightly armoured. The elevation of the arms in the KFM stance not only protects the head from blows, but also makes it much harder for an opponent to get their arms around your neck. Since Baleman employs grappling techniques to a higher degree than the other screen Batmen, it makes sense that he would also be better equipped to defend himself against such attacks.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Wed, 12 Jul 2023, 02:38
I went looking for the Mission Impossible thread. And either I can't find it or else it doesn't exist.

But I've been making my way through the MI franchise in advance of DR1. I haven't seen most of the MI films before anyway so this was kind of a treat.

Even so, I was reminded of this thread while watching the end of MI3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-19YFDxDsmM

This is the best KFM that I've ever seen on film. It's brief. But it's there. And the story logic of it holds up. Ethan would want to protect his head and face during that fight. I'm interpreting the implant as triggering essentially two or three migraines at once before it goes pop.

It's everything Ethan can do to stay on his feet. So, he has to use KFM to win the fight.

Anyway, no deeper meaning there. I just wasn't expecting to see it and it was a fun little surprise.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: The Dark Knight on Wed, 12 Jul 2023, 03:31
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 12 Jul  2023, 02:38But I've been making my way through the MI franchise in advance of DR1. I haven't seen most of the MI films before anyway so this was kind of a treat.
Great idea. I've been wanting you in particular to see the movies and see what you think. The run from Ghost Protocol onwards is pretty remarkable from an action/espionage point of view. Fallout would probably be my favorite. I did see Part One and it's also very good. I don't think it's the best one, but it's a must on the big screen.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Fri, 14 Jul 2023, 22:13
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 12 Jul  2023, 03:31The run from Ghost Protocol onwards is pretty remarkable from an action/espionage point of view.
True. There's nothing wrong with MI1 through MI3. But GP is where the series finally found its true identity imo.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 12 Jul  2023, 03:31Fallout would probably be my favorite.
Agreed. I guessed the twist relatively early on. But it was still a very effective spy thriller/action movie that hit all the right notes and delivered the goods in scene after scene. I simply have no criticism of Fallout.

...

Shouldn't we have a thread for the MI franchise?
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: The Dark Knight on Fri, 14 Jul 2023, 23:19
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 14 Jul  2023, 22:13True. There's nothing wrong with MI1 through MI3. But GP is where the series finally found its true identity imo.
I still think the first has the best atmosphere of them all. I also love how the general template of the what the series would evolve into is still there in a lower scale way. MI3 has my favorite cold open to any film - the interrogation scene, and Hoffman is probably the best villain in the series. However I really like what Gabriel brings to the table in Dead Reckoning Part One.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 14 Jul  2023, 22:13Agreed. I guessed the twist relatively early on. But it was still a very effective spy thriller/action movie that hit all the right notes and delivered the goods in scene after scene. I simply have no criticism of Fallout.
This is my favorite scene from the film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik_8ZwhE48w

Particularly the footage from 2.25-2.55 which is primal, practical action at its best.

"Ethan he's getting away from you, you're gonna have to go faster" is pure Cruisetainment. It gives the perfect excuse for Tom to run the fastest he ever has, with a thrilling soundtrack driving him on. One clean take of him sprinting across the roof, culminating in his jump across the other side. He actually broke his ankle doing that, but carried on limping to save the take.

I think what Ghost Protocol onwards really nailed is the team dynamic. Ethan is definitely the main protagonist but they manage to establish a solid cast of regulars. The Burj Khalifa climbing scene is fantastic, and to this day I'm still deciding if I prefer it to the wire descent in the original. What I enjoy about this series is how the mission must be done, no matter what. Not wanting to do something doesn't come into the equation. The clock is ticking. Get it done.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 14 Jul  2023, 22:13Shouldn't we have a thread for the MI franchise?
I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Sun, 16 Jul 2023, 00:43
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 14 Jul  2023, 23:19I'm all for it.
Me too. But I'm too lazy to start one.

Anyway, saw MIDR1 in 4DX. First time seeing anything in 4DX, frankly. I enjoyed the novelty of it but I definitely wouldn't want to see movies that way every time.

And yet, it did enhance the experience.

To keep things kind of short, I'll just say that MIDR1 exceeded my expectations. I mean, yes, anything can be better. There were moments of strained believability (I don't think Ethan and Grace would be *THAT* concerned with each other's well being on the train considering what they're trying to do) but 99% of the film fires on all cylinders such that the minor quibbles I could give you don't matter very much.

Until someone starts the MI thread, I think vague language like that should probably cover it for now.
Title: Re: Fighting Style of the Nolan Batman
Post by: thecolorsblend on Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 16:19
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  7 Jan  2021, 19:22KFM incorporates elements of barroom brawling, and this is clearly evidenced in the Nolan Batman's fighting style. Note that he often allows himself to get hit, then channels his anger into his counterattack. This exemplifies one of the core psychological components of Keysi.

(https://i.postimg.cc/15c3H2Ks/bar.gif)
Just rewatched this scene. Aside from lacerating that guy's hand for no good reason, I love how efficient Bale's Batman charges through the fight.

By my count, Batman took out seven guys before finally making his way to Moroni. Now, yes, it's probably impossible for anyone to take out seven guys all at once. But that aside, this is one of the best fights in the entire film. It shows Batman's grit, determination, efficiency and (let's face it) vengeance.

Very impressive.