Joker (2019)

[Travesty]

It's been confirmed that Gary Glitter won't receive royalties for his song, so once again the outrage directed at this film over its inclusion seems like contrived pearl-clutching.

I just hate the song's inclusion for how played out it is here in America. I honestly didn't know who Gary Glitter was, or the controversy surrounding him, I just know that song from every-single basketball, football, baseball, and hockey game I've attended since I was 3-4 years old. You've also heard it in numerous amounts of tv shows and movies. It's just a played out song. And I didn't think it fit the scene. It literally took me out. It's the same problem I had with Captian Marvel when the No Doubt song came on sporadically during a fight scene: it just doesn't fit. It made me roll my eyes by how cheesy it made the scene. Same thing with Joker. It just took me out completely. Again, my problems aren't with Gary Glitter, it's with the song in particular. If there was no controversy with Gary Glitter, I would still have the same reaction to it.

[johnnygobbs]

That's fair enough Travesty.

Personally, the song worked for me in the context of the scene (although it helped that I knew the song was featured in the film, going into the screening), and I also assume that its ubiquity as a sports stadium staple is the point.  Arthur is feeling victorious at this point, so it would make sense for him to have the song playing in his head.  But I appreciate if you didn't care for its inclusion on an artistic level.

[thecolorsblend]

I just hate the song's inclusion for how played out it is here in America. I honestly didn't know who Gary Glitter was, or the controversy surrounding him, I just know that song from every-single basketball, football, baseball, and hockey game I've attended since I was 3-4 years old. You've also heard it in numerous amounts of tv shows and movies. It's just a played out song. And I didn't think it fit the scene. It literally took me out.

I can see that. Especially the played out part. It's sort of a novelty song so it never had much staying power in the first place. But being played at bazillions of sporting events really tanked it. Ruined whatever redeeming qualities the song might've had otherwise.

Oddly enough, that's a big part of why I think it works for me. The usage of that song at that moment expresses Arthur fully embracing everything that being the Joker means. In particular, murder.

It's an intentional subversion of the song's identity. In the modern musical lexicon, the song has come to embody triumphal athletic achievements. And that repurposing of the song is precisely why it works. Another song that also might've worked is "Walking On Sunshine". A bright, happy, poppy, way overplayed song that wears its chipper joy on its sleeve. Using that to express Arthur's full acceptance of his psychosis, tendency towards murder and the meaninglessness of his life would've been just about as powerful.

It's the same problem I had with Captian Marvel when the No Doubt song came on sporadically during a fight scene: it just doesn't fit. It made me roll my eyes by how cheesy it made the scene.

Never saw Captain Marvel so I had no idea what you were talking about here. Pretty sure I knew which song was included in the movie though.

And... yep. Man, talk about try-hard. That song would've taken anybody out of the movie. Captain Marvel, what a joke...

[johnnygobbs]

It's an intentional subversion of the song's identity. In the modern musical lexicon, the song has come to embody triumphal athletic achievements. And that repurposing of the song is precisely why it works. Another song that also might've worked is "Walking On Sunshine". A bright, happy, poppy, way overplayed song that wears its chipper joy on its sleeve. Using that to express Arthur's full acceptance of his psychosis, tendency towards murder and the meaninglessness of his life would've been just about as powerful.

For some reason I assumed 'Walking on Sunshine' was a late 80s song, in which case it would probably be too late for Joker (assuming Joker is set in the early 80s), but I just checked and I see it was first released in 1983.  So, yeah, that would have been a very good alternative track for this scene.

As an aside, does anyone know if there is a precise year for when this film is set?  Am I right in understanding that it is set in the early 1980s?

[The Joker]

Trust The Joker himself to write the most comprehensive analysis of the film. Bravo.

Thanks for the kind words, TDK. This is a character that's near and dear to my cold black heart. Though you are more consistent in giving worthwhile write up reviews for sure.

For other people, they think everything after Arthur getting inside the fridge is a dream. Others ask if Arthur has been locked up the whole time. I don't think it goes that far, to be honest. I think the general story is true but with Arthur's mental embellishments.

I'm of the view Arthur was arrested straight after the Murray incident, and driven via police car to jail without incident. Think about it – how do police arrest someone standing in the middle of a screaming mob like that? It would be possible, of course, but would require heavy work. But in any case, I think it's another best case scenario delusion of him being admired. He hallucinated having a girlfriend who thought he was funny. He dreamt about Murray being sympathetic and being a father figure.

There's a real argument that this is indeed the case. I dig the notion that this Joker fully embracing who he is, while simultaneously young Bruce Wayne witnesses his parents being gunned down following a viewing of, "Zorro, The Gay Blade", but yeah, the whole celebatory scene is questionable.

But what if I was told to write a JOKER sequel? I'd start with Arthur locked up, which continues immediately after the original but also doesn't negate other theories. I'd have a number of years passing, but nothing major. Say, somewhere around 1985-87.  I'd have a lot focused in jail with his routine, interviews and the like. Harley being a psychologist he takes interest in, with a number of his own delusions playing out (taking place inside jail and outside) ala the original would work.

Perhaps he has been medicated and his overall behavior changes, and eventually he is released (a leap in logic, but it happens in the comics) but isn't being happy about it. Harley has given home hope, and jail is home. He doesn't fit in anywhere else.

I'm not convinced a sequel will happen anyway. The FREEZE talk is not bad idea if they want to continue villain studies. He would be an obvious choice. Heart of Ice is one of, if not the, best B:TAS episodes. The character has the necessary tragic elements they would be looking for. I don't think it would have the same cultural impact as JOKER, but it could have similar acclaim.

Could be interesting. A sequel would be tricky. I am not fully opposed to it, but don't really think it's required. It's like the longer this film is left alone  to be a one off, the more the film may have potential to be admired. In part to it's restraint in choosing not to expand upon it with parts 2,3,4 ect.

For some reason I assumed 'Walking on Sunshine' was a late 80s song, in which case it would probably be too late for Joker (assuming Joker is set in the early 80s), but I just checked and I see it was first released in 1983.  So, yeah, that would have been a very good alternative track for this scene.

As an aside, does anyone know if there is a precise year for when this film is set?  Am I right in understanding that it is set in the early 1980s?

I don't know. Every time I hear "Walking on Sunshine", i instantly think of Patrick Bateman walking to his office at Pierce and Pierce.

Precise year seems vague in the film itself, but I keep hearing 1981.

Coincidentally, the Zorro movie the Waynes are seen exiting from, came out in 1981.

[johnnygobbs]

I don't know. Every time I hear "Walking on Sunshine", i instantly think of Patrick Bateman walking to his office at Pierce and Pierce.

Precise year seems vague in the film itself, but I keep hearing 1981.

Coincidentally, the Zorro movie the Waynes are seen exiting from, came out in 1981.

Well remembered!

So, too early for 'Walking on Sunshine' then.

As an aside, although there is very little humour in the film, what humour does exist is deliciously crafty and subversive.  The choice of 'Zorro - The Gay Blade', a poorly-received and, in hindsight, somewhat homophobic Zorro spoof starring the perennially cheesy b-lister George Hamilton, as the Zorro movie Bruce Wayne watches before his parents are gunned down before him, feels perfect for this particularly subversive 'Batman' film (i.e. one in which Thomas Wayne is no longer a philanthropic doctor, but an entitled and supercilious CEO).

As another aside, I can't help thinking that this version of the Wayne family is not too far from what we might have got from Daniel 'Batman Returns' Waters had he penned Batman '89 (albeit with extra lashings of subversive humour).  It kind of fits the cynical and misanthropic view of the world, its 'victims' included, Waters particularly displayed in Heathers.

[thecolorsblend]

This is a rather fawning video... made by somebody who didn't especially care for the film. He explains why the movie doesn't work for him before explaining why we need many more films just like it. I rather admire his candor. He's speaking from a place of enthusiasm, if not quite affection.

[The Dark Knight]

There's a lot of discussion that goes around a campfire, and water coolers for that matter. But campfires are a better format for deep conversation, and word around the campfire is that the end scene with Arthur could actually be a significant flash forward.

The premise? Batman exists and Arthur has potentially been sent back to the slammer. It dawns on Arthur that Bruce was born the same night as him, and apparently a version of the script entertains this theory. Arthur's hair is also greyer - I'll have to check that again. Arthur says the interviewer wouldn't get the joke for the precise reason it's a personal bond between hero and villain.

In any case, I get the feeling Arthur is indeed thinking about young Bruce given we again see the footage of him standing before his dead parents during that monologue. I think "some people get their kicks stomping on a dream" is a big hint. I feel he enjoys the fact he made Bruce broken hearted like him. People used to kick him when he was down, but now he does it to others. And as he told Murray, he enjoys it now, and even finds it funny.

If this film was not called JOKER, I'd definitely call it THAT'S LIFE. The song is featured throughout, and Arthur was going to utter it himself before the Murray show transmission gets cut. The themes of the song are just about perfect. Someone who regularly feels down and out but musters the strength to keep going. But that enthusiasm has a limit given he's willing to roll himself up in a big ball and die.

The swearing in JOKER felt natural to me, and appropriate for the vibe of the film. When someone is that depressed that's how they talk. It rolls off the tongue given the frustrated internal thoughts we have on a regular basis. The original "I'm Batman" introduction in 1989 was meant to have a F bomb, but I'm glad it was omitted. But nonetheless, JOKER feels like it has that early B89 mindset and instead runs with it. I find that somewhat interesting.

JOKER is officially set during 1981. I think it plays nicely given the world back then was much lower tech than today. If you shot someone you'd most likely get away with it. The early 80s didn't have the surveillance state or advanced forensics we have today. It was largely based on eye witnesses. I think that aspect is important for this film because it heightens the grittiness and threat level of just one revolver.

One last thing: the use of Rock and Roll Vol 2. It's perfect because it's a celebration. I really think this will become an iconic scene in movie history akin to the Rocky steps in Philadelphia. Instead of running up, grooving down. The instrumental shows a man who has NOTHING left to lose. He's stronger, more confident and no longer cares.

[johnnygobbs]

Here's a great piece about how the average joe might find it easier to identify with the Joker over Batman:

https://www.cbr.com/easier-to-identify-joker-batman/

Is It Easier to Identify With the Joker Today Than With Batman?

by Renaldo Matadeen

Todd Phillips' Joker attracted a high level of scrutiny before it even came out. Folks expected Joaquin Phoenix's Arthur Fleck to be sadistic, chaotic and overly violent, but instead we got an introverted mental health patient who only broke bad when he felt society didn't care for and then abandoned people like him anymore.

It's not a Joker raising hell for the fun of it. Instead, we've got someone meant to inspire sympathy -- outside of his murder spree. An Arthur Fleck we could even find ourselves rooting for under certain circumstances. With that in mind, it's worth thinking about whether or not it's easier to identify with this iteration of Joker in today's society over Batman. A question with a pretty simple answer: Yes. Not because anarchy should be endorsed but simply because, generally, we want symbols to stand up against the corruption the one percent partakes in.

This theme drives the film as we witness how capitalism exploits the lower-class so that the elite can feed off the fat of the land, draining society to the point the impoverished are left fighting for scraps. Arthur notices all this over decades, which is why, bit-by-bit, his sanity erodes. When he spews his final speech to Robert DeNiro's Murray Franklin, he makes it clear society looks down and spits on the downtrodden, not giving a damn about whether they live or die, as they're merely tools to make the rich even wealthier.

This incredibly relatable to our real world, where businessmen become billionaires while students remain in debt. Not to mention systems such as health care, insurance and education continue to work against the lower to middle class. This impacts on Arthur as he can't afford to look after a deranged mother, not to mention state funding gets cut for the mental health program he's enrolled in, once more proving when Thomas Wayne and his ilk go on TV talking about campaigns to be mayor, it's patronizing and nothing meaningful.

It's the kind of hardship a lot of people live with in the real world today, with so many crooked politicians doing the same and pitting the poor against the rich the way Thomas did. Hearing him calling common people "clowns" because he assumed one of them killed three bankers mirrors what so many businessmen think of the rest of us -- folks who'll probably never come close to that kind of money.

To them, they're not even the one percent, they're kings and queens in castles and ivory towers in gated communities like Wayne Manor, protected and taken care of, whose kids will enjoy Ivy League schools, all while benefitting off the backs of hardworking citizens. And again, Arthur's disenchanted; saddened to the point he admits he doesn't feel like "Happy" (his childhood nickname when he was innocent and didn't know better) anymore.

Admittedly, it's easier to side with someone who shows so much empathy and compassion for his fellow citizens but we'll never condone him using violence to express this frustration. Still, there's a reason Gotham connects with him and rises up in the Joker riots to celebrate him -- they see a rebel who fought the system and, in their eyes, won.

By doing so, Arthur is indeed the antithesis to Batman, who while representing a human ideal, comes from a place of privilege.

He didn't have to struggle or endure decades of servitude and grime like Arthur did. Now, we're not calling Bruce Wayne spoiled but he became his symbol of justice purely thanks to his extreme wealth, again something few of us, or Arthur, could experience. And in today's fractured world, where we see the male ego and toxic masculinity shouting at the top of the mountain, one has to wonder if powerful men like Bruce really are doing what they should with their money.

Thomas certainly didn't, merely paying lip service to charitable acts -- running media and propaganda sessions to hype his own political aspirations, reminding us they've got the means to fix society the civil way, they just choose not to. Arthur didn't have these tools and so, he has to force a way through, which is where the Joker comes in, not as a symbol of justice, but as one against injustice.

There's a stark difference there because he's not entitled, he doesn't come from a dynasty (though the film plays with this idea) and in terms of legacy, he's all alone. Most of us can relate to that, carving our path in the world without having anything or anyone like a Thomas, Alfred or Lucius Fox to hand us anything.

Sure, the Dark Knight works to make the world a better place at huge personal cost but without these tools, Arthur could only use the only instrument he knew: rage. And he always made it clear, he was "one bad day" away from snapping.

When we're in rush hour, on the clock, watching bosses racking up bonuses and buying mansions and yachts, we too often grow incensed, but it's about coping and overcoming peacefully. Don't do something you'll regret like Arthur, but still connect with his message of how society's forgotten ones remain just that: forgotten in the dark. That's why we identify with him more, he's one of us, as opposed to some philanthropist on a podium playing games in the public eye to sooth his inner narcissist.

[thecolorsblend]

I don't know how common this is. But JOKER has retaken the #1 spot at the box office this weekend. It was briefly dethroned last weekend by Maleficent but since then Maleficent has fallen off. So even though JOKER has lost 438 theaters since it opened, its legs combined with Maleficent's fast dropoff means JOKER has retaken the lead.

I'm no expert on advertising. But that's one hell of a marketing pitch for TV spots this week.

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/2019W43/?ref_=bo_rl_table_5

Currently, the worldwide box office figures are sitting at a projected $849,083,522. It's a cinch that JOKER clears $900 million worldwide. People who seem like they know a lot more about this stuff than I do also think there's a chance the film could make its final landing within striking distance of $1 billion. Idk how that's possible, especially without a release in China. If JOKER somehow finagles a Chinese release, that's ball game. $1 billion without question.

But even without getting released in China, the movie could come very close to $1 billion. So I guess we'll see.