Batman-Online.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOVFvcNfvE

All I can say is that it's very promising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngElkyQ6Rhs

OMG! OMG OMG OMG! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With this being, more than likely, released a day earlier than it's official release date (hey, alot of theaters are showing Avengers: Age of Ultron on April 30th, as opposed to May 1st), I already know what my plans will be on my birthday this year. Even if it means standing in line for awhile.  ;)

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...what the hell is Matthew doing? lol

You can say it's a warm up rite.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaNTcfOMSx8

O_o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGbxmsDFVnE

Great trailer!

I hope the film is closer to the originals.  :)

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 20 Oct  2015, 18:25
I hope the film is closer to the originals.  :)

It looks great.  :)

But where's Luke in the trailers?  And why isn't Lando featuring in the new film?  :(

There are many rumors about Luke, he may not have a large role, and it doesn't look like Lando will feature. They also need new characters to develop  :-\

It looks amazing but I need someone to tell me for sure that Luke hasn't fallen to the dark side and is Kylo Ren. I couldn't handle that.

I also need some info on the rebel pilot. I've seen a toy of him and I've seen him in the trailer and....yes please. lol.

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 20 Oct  2015, 18:25
I hope the film is closer to the originals.  :)

That's what they're going for! That's why they shot on location and used real effects instead of CGI. BB-8 (the adorable little droid that's like a soccer ball lol) is basically the world's coolest remote control toy ever instead of some pixels on a computer screen. I know George Lucas loved his computer effects and how limitless they are but CGI effects over done like that are so....cold. There's like a warmth or whatever to real special effects, toy models, stuff like that.

Make sense?

Quote from: Catwoman on Tue, 20 Oct  2015, 23:22

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 20 Oct  2015, 18:25
I hope the film is closer to the originals.  :)

That's what they're going for! That's why they shot on location and used real effects instead of CGI. BB-8 (the adorable little droid that's like a soccer ball lol) is basically the world's coolest remote control toy ever instead of some pixels on a computer screen. I know George Lucas loved his computer effects and how limitless they are but CGI effects over done like that are so....cold. There's like a warmth or whatever to real special effects, toy models, stuff like that.

Make sense?

It makes perfect sense. The original films were among the best action-adventure stuff I ever saw. They did well to look for inspiration there. We know what they did when they tried something else in films. And unfortunately I only saw those three films in the cinema, and the originals on TV.

I've already purchased tickets. Could have done it online, but decided to just go to the local theater and get 'em from there. Being that there will be a few early showings on the 17th, as opposed to the 18th, I already know what I'll be doing the night of my birthday.

Outstanding!  ;D

Ordering mine tonight, getting the rest of the head count. Can't waaaaaaaaaait.

Oh, happy early birthday Mista J. ;)

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Quote from: Catwoman on Wed, 21 Oct  2015, 15:12
Ordering mine tonight, getting the rest of the head count. Can't waaaaaaaaaait.

Oh, happy early birthday Mista J. ;)

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Thanks!  ;)  8)

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 21 Oct  2015, 07:43

I've already purchased tickets. Could have done it online, but decided to just go to the local theater and get 'em from there. Being that there will be a few early showings on the 17th, as opposed to the 18th, I already know what I'll be doing the night of my birthday.

Outstanding!  ;D

Happy Birthday Mr. J.

Thanks Johnny.  8)


So what does everyone think of the new poster?

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The Apathy Awakens. I just don't care very much about this movie.

I mean, if it was a straight up nostalgia fest where we had another adventure with Luke, Han and Leia, I'd be there with freaking bells on. Hell, that's what I originally thought this movie was going to be. Or if it was something totally separate and set, like, 10,000 years after Return of the Jedi, I'd be fine with that too.

What I don't want to see is a Crystal Skull-lite thing where the old cast passes the baton to some babyfaced CW-friendly cast of pretty 20-somethings. That would be retarded and I don't care to see that.

Just. Don't. Care.

If you're looking forward to this movie, God bless. Really. But more and more this is looking like something I won't be much into.

I won't jump on the bandwagon for this one either, I'll try to watch it hoping for a good movie but not with high expectations.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 25 Oct  2015, 00:03
The Apathy Awakens. I just don't care very much about this movie.

I mean, if it was a straight up nostalgia fest where we had another adventure with Luke, Han and Leia, I'd be there with freaking bells on. Hell, that's what I originally thought this movie was going to be. Or if it was something totally separate and set, like, 10,000 years after Return of the Jedi, I'd be fine with that too.

What I don't want to see is a Crystal Skull-lite thing where the old cast passes the baton to some babyfaced CW-friendly cast of pretty 20-something. That would be retarded and I don't care to see that.

Just. Don't. Care.

If you're looking forward to this movie, God bless. Really. But more and more this is looking like something I won't be much into.

I kind of feel the opposite way...now there's a surprise.  ;)

Prior to the trailer I wasn't that hyped-up about the new films (I haven't, for the record, ever seen a Star Wars film in the cinema, and I mostly disliked the prequels, although I adore the 'original trilogy'), but the new footage has got me genuinely excited for the new films.  They seem to strike the right tone being neither as dour nor as childish as the prequels seemed (although I do appreciate that prior to TPM there was a lot of hope those films would measure up to the originals).  But looking at the new footage there seems to be nothing akin to Jar Jar Binks or the interminable and cartoonish pod-race, from TPM and thankfully the focus seems to be on young adults rather than a pre-adolescent kid.  Moreover, I really appreciate the diversity of the new cast and the fact that we now seem to have a black guy and a young woman at the centre of the story, both of whom have fresh, distinctive looks about them, far from the bland identikit/Gap model casts of the wretched CW shows you referred to thecolorsblend (and at least the CW shows are something we can agree on...suffice to say, I'm not a fan of them either).

I hope and suspect that J J Abrams has learned from the lessons of the prequels and the mixed response they generated (too childish, too much boring trade federation nonsense, too much Jar Jar Binks), and the trailer which seems to empathise the spectacle, magic and mythology of the universe rather than anything as dull and prosaic as 'midichlorians' or trade federation embargos.  Plus the CGI already looks vastly superior to the flat, atmosphere-less, cartoon-character populated likes of Episodes I to III (although I'll admit that I am rather partial to a good proportion of ROTS despite my dislike of the preceding two films, TPM in particular).

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 25 Oct  2015, 00:03
The Apathy Awakens. I just don't care very much about this movie.

I mean, if it was a straight up nostalgia fest where we had another adventure with Luke, Han and Leia, I'd be there with freaking bells on. Hell, that's what I originally thought this movie was going to be. Or if it was something totally separate and set, like, 10,000 years after Return of the Jedi, I'd be fine with that too.

What I don't want to see is a Crystal Skull-lite thing where the old cast passes the baton to some babyfaced CW-friendly cast of pretty 20-somethings. That would be retarded and I don't care to see that.

Just. Don't. Care.

If you're looking forward to this movie, God bless. Really. But more and more this is looking like something I won't be much into.

I'm pretty much the same as you.

My enthusiasm just isn't there at the moment. I was a big Star Wars fan back in the day, but I just can't garner that same crazy hype that others seem to have. Sure, Han Solo and Leia are back, but to me, I just don't think this feels like the 'true' Episode 7. It's JJ Abrams version of it 32 years after the fact.

I'm sure it'll be good enough, but still, I'm just not as interested.

I honestly can't say I'm a avid JJ Abrams fan who rushes out to see every film directed/produced by him, or has even cared to see every bit of his work, but can safely say I'm glad Abrams got the reigns of Episode 7, and thus give it a fighting chance to steer it in a direction that can be atleast be pleasing for fans of the franchise. If we went with Lucas' ideas, from what I understand of where he would have taken it following the sale to Disney, would have been an entirely different beast altogether, and one with very little nostalgia for fans, if any at all. Any excitement would have been for the simple fact that a new Star Wars film would be coming out, and essentially, that's where it would have began and ended.

The hype for this film, from what I can tell, has alot to do with fans getting to see what characters from the original trilogy have been up to 30 years post-ROTJ. Which, wouldn't you know it, is of much interest for hardcore fans, and casual fans alike due to familiarity with those characters. Hence the many, many online articles debating/theorizing/predicting what has, and will happen to those characters with the new film. Especially since all the expanded universe stuff has been thrown out, and consequently, cannot be relied upon any longer as a reference. Going simply off the trailers, Abrams & crew, to their credit, took a worthwhile approach to the material considering the circumstances. It's not a film focused primarily on Luke/Han/Leia, which would be completely unrealistic for Disney to do at this point, however it's apparent that the film certainly gives those characters story arcs, while of course introducing new characters that can, in the grand scheme of things, anchor the franchise into the future. With that, the trailers have done their job very effectively; Garner interest! (and evidently ALOT at that)

Having recently watched the great Empire of Dreams documentary, it's interesting to hear Mark Hamill comment about his wanting to continue to play Luke in future episodes following ROTJ, and see where that character could have gone, but unfortunately the decision to not directly follow-up on Episode 6 was made a long time ago, and those were the cards dealt. Fortunately ... some things have changed, and Ep 7 is finallllly here.   

Rock 'n' Roll!

What I'll say about TFA is that it cements the trajectory Hollywood has been taking for a few years now.

Once upon a time you could cruise the Internet and, with varying degrees of effort, you could find out pretty much all about any and every movie that was coming down the pipeline. I think it peaked with Batman Begins, where the entire script was leaked (by Warner Bros.) online.

Lately the trend has been to keep as much stuff secret as possible. TDK and TDKRises had little or no confirmed spoilers floating around out there, TFA has speculation but nothing concrete and BvS likewise has a lot of informed speculation but nothing is certain.

It appears as though the days of producers leaking the entire production to various outlets have passed by. I'm actually okay with that. I don't think the spoiler era of the Internet was a very positive one. This approach basically involved (or conscripted) fans in the process as halfass participants. Except we weren't "participants". We were more of a lynch mob and there are instances where the material suffered (Daredevil) or even died (various Superman films and Batman films) as a result of the scrutiny... or outrage.

If the tendency from here on in is Hollywood returning to secrecy when it comes to movie production... well, ultimately I think that will be best for everyone.

http://time.com/4097600/star-wars-dying-fan/

A very unfortunate and tragic report, but if true, hopefully the guy gets to see the movie.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/ForceForDaniel

I hope he gets to see it. That would be great. Maybe he can have a private discussion with someone who is really in the know about what 7-8-9 will end up being so he knows the whole story too. God bless him.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/a-terminally-ill-star-wars-fan-has-been-granted-his-dying-wish-of-seeing-the-force-awakens-early/ar-BBmT6jd?li=BBgzzfc

I have tears.

These movies can be really important for fans, even some that will have their life cut short. I am glad he got his wish.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri,  6 Nov  2015, 05:41
http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/a-terminally-ill-star-wars-fan-has-been-granted-his-dying-wish-of-seeing-the-force-awakens-early/ar-BBmT6jd?li=BBgzzfc

I have tears.

If the powers that be have any decency, they'll show him the film tomorrow.

It's good to read that it's a go!

Also, I was unaware that J.J. Abrams had a similar situation prior to the release of Star Trek Into Darkness.

QuoteThis isn't the first time that Abrams has let a terminally ill fan see one of his highly-anticipated projects before the official release date. Back in 2013, the director facilitated a months-in-advance preview of Star Trek Into Darkness for film buff Daniel Craft, who was also fighting with cancer.

So J.J., this goes without saying ....

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I don't think yall understood, it was done and he saw it in a screening at his home. So he saw it.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri,  6 Nov  2015, 17:23
I don't think yall understood, it was done and he saw it in a screening at his home. So he saw it.

That's awesome.  I understand the film has been completed so it makes sense.

This person apparently passed away.

Just saw the news on HLN.

http://nypost.com/2015/11/10/terminally-ill-fan-dies-after-getting-wish-to-see-new-star-wars/

Rest In Peace

God bless those he left behind :(

So glad his last wish was fulfilled.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 10 Nov  2015, 14:47
This person apparently passed away.

Sad news. But it also makes me happy that he managed to see the film, feeling more at peace before leaving this world behind. RIP.

With a series of prequel Han Solo films coming up, why not?

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Prequel? But who will play Han, and Lando for that matter ? :)

Who knows, but like whenever the Broccoli's start casting for a new Bond, you can bet there's alot of interested parties in Hollywood vying right now for the role of a young Han Solo.  ;)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Untitled_Han_Solo_Anthology_film

Too true,

But I like Han mostly because I liked his dynamic with Luke, Leia, Lando, the droids, Jabba, and of course Chewie, I wonder how can they make a "prequel" and still make fans content.  :D

Quote from: The Joker on Fri, 11 Dec  2015, 07:26

With a series of prequel Han Solo films coming up, why not?

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Love it!

Who's the girl on Han's arm though?

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Fri, 11 Dec  2015, 10:34
Too true,

But I like Han mostly because I liked his dynamic with Luke, Leia, Lando, the droids, Jabba, and of course Chewie, I wonder how can they make a "prequel" and still make fans content.  :D

I like Han's dynamic with Luke, the droids, and especially Leia as well, but with a Han prequel trilogy set before Episode IV, we'll just have to settle for seeing how he met Lando for the first time (eventually winning Millennium Falcon away from him), forming a close bond and becoming great buds with Chewie, in addition to getting involved in owing debts to Jabba and subsequently getting acquainted with bounty hunters. Ideally, could be alot of fun.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 11 Dec  2015, 13:07
Love it!

Who's the girl on Han's arm though?

I assume just another 'girlfriend' of Han's prior to meeting Leia for the first time. Doesn't look like "Jenny", but Han probably had a number of brief girlfriends prior to Leia anyways.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/star-wars-rough-cut-footage-reveals-an-interesting-96555069237.html

I'm hoping for the best, and yes, it could be a lot of fun. Han is a cool character and the pre-episode IV world is still a good place for him, especially with Chewie and Lando and with potential love interests, as the pic suggests.

Is the premiere tonight?

So people will finally get a chance to see the new movie in a few hours!

There may be an embargo on the critics but I'm sure there will be a lot of advance feedback on Twitter.

I'll see The Force Awakens on Dec 18, 2015.  :)

Who's the blonde on Han's arm, Edd?

Is it wrong that I prefer her to Leia?  :-\

I don't know who that is,  but I'd sure want to find out. Let no one judge you on this, my nickel's worth of free advice. :)

And I love both Leia and Padme'  :-*

Apparently the word on last night's premiere is resoundingly positive.  :)  And some people are already predicting a possible Best Picture Oscar nomination.

I know not everyone has faith in the Academy, and neither should they necessarily, but the fact that Oscar is being talked of in the same breath as The Force Awakens is testament to how positive the word-of-mouth is.

At the very least I don't think we're going to see anything like the collective disappointment that greeted The Phantom Menace.

I was always more optimistic than that about TFA, so I am anyway happy to hear that...  :)

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 15 Dec  2015, 18:47
I was always more optimistic than that about TFA, so I am anyway happy to hear that...  :)

Funnily enough, I was never really that hyped for the prequels back in 1999.  I was probably too preoccupied with exams or some such thing, but I don't recall thinking very highly of the advance footage/trailers.  But the footage/trailers/synopsis for The Force Awakens does excite me.  :)

I watched "Clones" and "Revenge" at the cinema when they were new here, but I had watched the originals before. I've come to like "Revenge" more than most fans.

I like Revenge of the Sith. It's my favourite of the prequels.

I won't be able to see the new movie until a few weeks.

Good, Dark Knight, good. Kill Dooku now.  :)

I can give you an opinion after I see it on Friday.

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 15 Dec  2015, 19:59
I watched "Clones" and "Revenge" at the cinema when they were new here, but I had watched the originals before. I've come to like "Revenge" more than most fans.

Did you get to see the 1997 Special Editions when they were in theaters?

Like alot of other fans, I prefer the original theatrical cuts, but I thought they were fun. Mostly due to finally being able to see the original trilogy in a theater setting for once. Unfortunately, it was a mixed bag for sure. Some of the new stuff was ok, while other stuff George wanted for that was irritating.

I was still too young in 1997.  :)

I like Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope and Return of the Jedi best, then  Empire Strikes Back , after a re-watch. ESB is simply the middle, it cannot function on its own.

Phantom Menace was not terrible, but not good either, save for Liam Neeson and laying the foundations for the prequels, and Attack of the Clones was okay-ish. From my POV, movie rankings are all subjective to some extent, especially those from critics.

You might have been too young to remember this SNL skit as well then.

Kevin Spacey is absolutely hilarious in this.  :D

http://tidbot.com/link/31791

Thanks, Joker.  :D

It's more about what I got the opportunity to watch and what I didn't. I am fan of older music and movies as well as newer. And no SNL for me here, I am not American.  :-X But some sketches work. :)

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 16 Dec  2015, 03:35
Like alot of other fans, I prefer the original theatrical cuts, but I thought they were fun. Mostly due to finally being able to see the original trilogy in a theater setting for once. Unfortunately, it was a mixed bag for sure. Some of the new stuff was ok, while other stuff George wanted for that was irritating.

I prefer the theatrical cuts too.

But with time, I've come around to the special editions, even though there are unnecessary changes like RD-D2 hiding behind rocks. But alas, in some ways the changes make future films like TFA possible by unifying the prequels with the classic trilogy. For example having Anakin's force ghost in ROTJ allows Hayden Christensen to appear again at some point. And there are rumors this could happen down the line.

Bottom line, just make the theatrical cuts available on Blu-ray and the complaining will largely cease.

I wish Lucas had made those films in the right order, like Anakin and Padme first, then Luke, Leia, Han, Lando, and bridge characters like the droids, Chewbacca, Obi Wan, Yoda, the Emperor, Qui Gon... but no. He had to bet it all in 1977. And he won. :D

TDK, just out of curiosity, which special editions do you like the best? I haven't checked out the 2011 blu rays special editions .... yet (getting the re-released complete saga blu ray set tomorrow from Amazon, so that will change sooner than later), but have seen the 1997 SE's, as well as the 2004 SE's when the original trilogy was first *officially* released on DVD.

Unfortunately, it's alot easier to compare the 2004 to the 2011 SE's only because of the 1997 SE's never actually getting a official DVD release at any point in time. Which is kinda of a shame. Only because it would be nice for us completionists to have not only the original unaltered original trilogy on blu, but also the 1997 releases as well. Though it goes without saying which set would be the priority.  :)

I wonder why the Clone Wars and the Separatists and Trade Fed. had to always play second fiddle ? I would like them more than the Republic, Rebel Alliance, or even the Empire.

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 16 Dec  2015, 05:03Unfortunately, it's alot easier to compare the 2004 to the 2011 SE's only because of the 1997 SE's never actually getting a official DVD release at any point in time. Which is kinda of a shame. Only because it would be nice for us completionists to have not only the original unaltered original trilogy on blu, but also the 1997 releases as well. Though it goes without saying which set would be the priority.  :)

Not that you asked me but I agree with you. The 1997 SE was a beautiful remaster of the original. People can say whatever they want about the quality of the changes made for the '97 SE's (or any other SE for that matter) but the overall presentation was the best the trilogy had ever looked and sounded... and certainly far superior to the horrible 2004 remastering with the crushed blacks, oversaturated colors, borked audio and other problems.

But yes, a remaster of the original trilogy is desirable... if unlikely right now because of potential legal snafu's.

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 16 Dec  2015, 05:03
TDK, just out of curiosity, which special editions do you like the best? I haven't checked out the 2011 blu rays special editions .... yet (getting the re-released complete saga blu ray set tomorrow from Amazon, so that will change sooner than later), but have seen the 1997 SE's, as well as the 2004 SE's when the original trilogy was first *officially* released on DVD.

I grew up with the 1997 edition, but I haven't seen it in ages. The changes weren't drastic to me at the time - I only realised what differed years later when I saw the OT on Laserdisc.

I recently bought the 2011 Blu-ray set. It's decent for the most part. I can see this argument from both sides. The people who want 1977, 1980 and 1983 films to remain of that era. But I can also accept moving forward as a brand, Star Wars wants to unify itself, if that makes sense.

So I guess the 2011 version is now considered *the* final cut of the films. Releasing the OT unaltered would somewhat confuse the brand they have manufactured after years of tinkering, but they should just do it. It'd sell like hotcakes.

Yeah, topics like the 1997 SE's, and the original unaltered trilogy makes me wish I knew pretty much anything about torrents. Cause, it's pretty much the only option for fans to get their hands on that material, which ideally should have been readily available years ago, for the foreseeable future, and in the case of the 1997 SE's, maybe the ONLY option ever. Which is just really unfortunate. Especially for those of us who want the original trilogy in all it's (As Lucas would say) 1st draft glory, and the 1997 SE's because of our own personal preference/nostalgia for that version of the trilogy.

I agree the legal snafu's is a problem. I believe I've read somewhere that Disney may get ownership of Empire/Jedi by a particular year in the future (sort of like how James Cameron will regain the Terminator rights by the end of this decade), but FOX owns 'A New Hope' outright. I would like to think that if Fox and WB can come to terms with the Adam West Batman show, the same can hold true with Fox and Disney, but who knows. Lucas' vetoing power of the OT being pretty much null since the sale to Disney can be something of a positive in this respect ....

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 16 Dec  2015, 08:38Yeah, topics like the 1997 SE's, and the original unaltered trilogy makes me wish I knew pretty much anything about torrents. Cause, it's pretty much the only option for fans to get their hands on that material, which ideally should have been readily available years ago, for the foreseeable future, and in the case of the 1997 SE's, maybe the ONLY option ever. Which is just really unfortunate. Especially for those of us who want the original trilogy in all it's (As Lucas would say) 1st draft glory, and the 1997 SE's because of our own personal preference/nostalgia for that version of the trilogy.

I'm sure you could find the unaltered trilogy as a torrent pretty easily. But I'm not aware of the '97 version floating around out there.

I went through a phase where I wanted every major version of Star Wars I could get my hands on. And for the unaltered trilogy, that was easy since those DVD's were released back in 2006 and I snapped them right up. Those DVD's are what most unaltered torrents are sourced from, I would imagine.

And for the 2004 DVD's, well, I already had the 2004 DVD's. So that was easy.

But the 1997 SE? Tough to do. I eventually found a set of 1997 laserdisks on eBay. I contacted a video transferal shop near here and worked out a verbal agreement from the proprietor that I would purchase and then donate a laserdisk player for him to transfer the LD's to DVD... in exchange for him doing the work for free. I ended up not doing it though because time got away from me.

That may be your only option though since I don't think 1997 torrents are out there anywhere. I've found torrents that say they're 1997 but they're usually 2004 and the idiot torrent compiler didn't know the difference.

I've seen some fan-made 1997 restorations where the fan editor remastered the video and fixed that weird pink tint the 1997 Star Wars release had. He basically shifted the color balance around a bit which fixed the problem. It looked great and sounded about as well as it could under the circumstances.

Honestly I think it would be great if Disney could release a sort of mega set featuring the version of each movie most commonly heard on that movie's opening day in 1977, 1980 and 1983, the 1997 version, the 2004 version and the Blu-Ray version. Not holding my breath for it but I'd love to hear the unaltered trilogy with the original mono soundmixes.

I would love to see the original versions again. I have them on VHS somewhere but I haven't seen them (or my VCR) in years lol.

I'm so excited about seeing TFA that I couldn't wait until Friday. I'm seeing it TOMORROW! So excited!!!

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 16 Dec  2015, 21:35
I'm sure you could find the unaltered trilogy as a torrent pretty easily. But I'm not aware of the '97 version floating around out there.

I went through a phase where I wanted every major version of Star Wars I could get my hands on. And for the unaltered trilogy, that was easy since those DVD's were released back in 2006 and I snapped them right up. Those DVD's are what most unaltered torrents are sourced from, I would imagine.

And for the 2004 DVD's, well, I already had the 2004 DVD's. So that was easy.

But the 1997 SE? Tough to do. I eventually found a set of 1997 laserdisks on eBay. I contacted a video transferal shop near here and worked out a verbal agreement from the proprietor that I would purchase and then donate a laserdisk player for him to transfer the LD's to DVD... in exchange for him doing the work for free. I ended up not doing it though because time got away from me.

That may be your only option though since I don't think 1997 torrents are out there anywhere. I've found torrents that say they're 1997 but they're usually 2004 and the idiot torrent compiler didn't know the difference.

I've seen some fan-made 1997 restorations where the fan editor remastered the video and fixed that weird pink tint the 1997 Star Wars release had. He basically shifted the color balance around a bit which fixed the problem. It looked great and sounded about as well as it could under the circumstances.

Honestly I think it would be great if Disney could release a sort of mega set featuring the version of each movie most commonly heard on that movie's opening day in 1977, 1980 and 1983, the 1997 version, the 2004 version and the Blu-Ray version. Not holding my breath for it but I'd love to hear the unaltered trilogy with the original mono soundmixes.

Something like that would truly be nothing short of outstanding. I mean, giving the fans their own personal choice on which version or versions of the OT they want, is pretty much Fox/Disney's license to print money. Cause it goes without saying that hardcore fans may purchase each and every version just to have them, or due to new bonus features or what have you, or even perhaps just a simple case of preference as, depending on one's age, one might gravitate towards a specific version/versions than others. Personally, I have alot more fondness for the unaltered OT, and the 1997 SE's, than I do the 2004 SE, and probably the 2011 SE's as well.

I know what you mean about getting in that mood for wanting every version. Right now, getting ahold of a DVD version of the 1997 SE's is pretty much the 'Holy Grail' of Star Wars films. As I think what some people consider the 'Holy Grail', The Holiday Special, is fairly easy to find (I found a more cleaned up version just a few days ago). I definitely see what you are saying about people mistakingly posting the 1997 SE's for download, and then come to find out, it's the 2004 versions. It's frustrating for sure, and adds to that allure of wanting that specific trilogy due to just how elusive the '97 trilogy really seems to be.

I've even had the thought of maybe hooking up 2 old VCR's (not the DVD/VCR combos that were being sold when VHS was phasing out .. I've read getting past the copy guard on those is nearly impossible), and recording the 1997 SE VHS set, and then after that, copy those onto DVD, but it's really not my preferred method, and I'm not even sure that would work. I assume it might since I have transferred some VHS to DVD, but can't say for absolutely sure. Plus, I would have to purchase the '97 VHS set anyways.

As far as the unaltered OT goes, I've heard of a 'de-specialized edition' of each film being out there in torrent land. It's apparently a fan project which restored the film to it's original glory, and is said to be alot better than the 2006 DVD copies, which like you, I have as well (they have really jumped up in price now I see). That's certainly one option I guess ....

I find it interesting that the 1997 special edition is being discussed.  Let me share with you how I was introduced to Star Wars?  In the beginning,  I didn't know what Star Wars was, but ironically I knew what Spaceballs was.  It was 1997 and the Trilogy rerelease was coming to my local movie theatre.  My mother insisted on taking me and my brother.  At first I protested and was very reluctant to even going.  The main reason was I had seen Spaceballs on tv and felt like Star Wars was going to be pretty much the same thing.  And don't get me wrong I do like Spaceballs very much, but when I was young I didn't really get that it was a comedy satire of the Sci Fi genre.  My Mom literally forced me to watch Star Wars.  Or should I say she used the Force on me.  Anyway, it should also be mentioned that at the time of my youth and still to this day I was very big on collecting and listening to Film Scores.  I have heard John Williams scores for such movies as E.T., Hook, and Indiana Jones.  Which reminds me, also at this particular  time of my life I was a huge Indiana Jones fan and only knew Harrison Ford at the time as Indiana Jones.  So here I was sitting in my theatre chair the lights blackened the 20th Century Fox Logo coming in with Alfred Newmans original score and the titlecard for Lucasfilm LTD and THX then I read the text of the films setting.  "A Long Time Ago... In a Galaxy Far Far Away." Then Bam John Williams Thunderous Main Titles come blasting in the theatre walls with the big titles that read STAR WARS.  From then on I was hooked.  My Mom took me to see the whole trilogy in theatres and on top of that she took me to my local library which had the original uncut versions of the trilogy on VHS and man I watched the hell out of them.  Later that year she bought me the 1997 special editions on VHS for my Birthday and I still own it to this very day.  The condition of my vhs tapes believe it or not are still in mint condition even the original slip cases haven't been destroyed.  My only regret is that I had an opportunity within the same year to get the Original Uncut versions on VHS, but my Mom wouldn't let me get it because she didn't think that I needed to have two versions of the same films.  Now even she regrets not letting me get it at the time.  It was an amazing experience for me and deeply part of my childhood memories.  

This was AMAZING! It had everything. It thrilled me, scared me, made me laugh, made me cry, made me cheer, made me want to cut Adam Driver's moley face off, but most of all it made me long for Episode VIII! It is so good.

 I'm seeing it in about 12 hours  :)

Like if anyone has any questions I'll be happy to try to answer them but this is totally a spoiler free zone so if you want a spoiler on something pm me cause I think people who post spoilers should be herded up and shot in the ass with a BB gun.

Well, I enjoyed it more than the prequels, and it was a pretty nice & exciting way to end my Birthday, so there's that too!  :D

Quote from: The Joker on Fri, 18 Dec  2015, 08:26

Well, I enjoyed it more than the prequels, and it was a pretty nice & exciting way to end my Birthday, so there's that too!  :D

Happy birthday Joker. Did you also dance with the devil by the pale moonlight?  :)

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 17 Dec  2015, 07:21I know what you mean about getting in that mood for wanting every version. Right now, getting ahold of a DVD version of the 1997 SE's is pretty much the 'Holy Grail' of Star Wars films. As I think what some people consider the 'Holy Grail', The Holiday Special, is fairly easy to find (I found a more cleaned up version just a few days ago). I definitely see what you are saying about people mistakingly posting the 1997 SE's for download, and then come to find out, it's the 2004 versions. It's frustrating for sure, and adds to that allure of wanting that specific trilogy due to just how elusive the '97 trilogy really seems to be.

I've heard that torrents existed at least at one time. Fan preservation efforts eventually grew to include the 1997 Special Edition sourced from old Laserdisks once the 2004 DVD's came along. I did a quick Google search and I think www.originaltrilogy.com may have some useful pointers for you.

Fan preservation also grew to include the theatrical cut of The Phantom Menace. Oddly enough, the theatrical version of Attack of the Clones has never been officially released on home video so there's no way to preserve it... assuming that watching any version of those movies is your idea of fun.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 17 Dec  2015, 07:21As far as the unaltered OT goes, I've heard of a 'de-specialized edition' of each film being out there in torrent land. It's apparently a fan project which restored the film to it's original glory, and is said to be alot better than the 2006 DVD copies, which like you, I have as well (they have really jumped up in price now I see). That's certainly one option I guess ....

If I'm thinking of the right thing, you're referring to Harmy's De-Specialized Edition. Yes, it's probably out there in torrents. But "buyer" beware. My understanding is he at least partially sourced his version from the 2004 DVD... which had crap color balance, insanely high contrast and other problems Harmy would probably have been powerless to overcome.

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Fri, 18 Dec  2015, 08:32
Happy birthday Joker. Did you also dance with the devil by the pale moonlight?  :)

Thanks.  :)

Not this time. Due to Star Wars, a rain check was given to the devil.  ;)

Colors: I've never really researched the prequels on home media very much to be honest, and really am unaware of what changes transpired from the theatrical cuts to DVD. I assume they probably were not as tinkered with as heavily as IV-VI? Thanks for the info on the de-specialized edition. Sounds like we just need a official release. Cause if it's a case of the contrast/color balance/brightness or what have you changing from scene to scene, that would be kinda jarring to watch....

Quote from: The Joker on Fri, 18 Dec  2015, 08:26

Well, I enjoyed it more than the prequels, and it was a pretty nice & exciting way to end my Birthday, so there's that too!  :D

Happy Birthday Joker.

I've also seen The Force Awakens, so pm me if you want to discuss spoilers and such.  :)

Ok everyone who's seen/sees it, how did your theater react to "Star Wars" appearing on screen and the theme starting? Mine totally exploded in cheers and applause. Same thing happened when we see just what "garbage" Rey was talking about. ;) And when Han and Chewie first appear. It was soooo cool.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 18 Dec  2015, 14:10
Ok everyone who's seen/sees it, how did your theater react to "Star Wars" appearing on screen and the theme starting? Mine totally exploded in cheers and applause. Same thing happened when we see just what "garbage" Rey was talking about. ;) And when Han and Chewie first appear. It was soooo cool.

It really was cool, I mean, A New Hope and such speak loudly to a country on the border with that former Evil Empire. And just about everyone heard of Luke, Leia, Chewie, Vader and especially the droids. It was good, episode 7, as I suspected, searching my feelings.

But nevermind those Star Wars films, I know what the real power is, and who is the best, simply.  :)  ;)

Did you think the storyline, including a bigger Death Star, and characters were quite similar to A New Hope?  :-\

Anyway, I still loved it.  The new characters, particularly Rey and Finn, are awesome, the action is spectacular and beautifully shot, the villains are suitably despicable, particularly Kylo Ren.  :)

Kylo Ren, you're going down!  >:(

I loved it BECAUSE they made it like the original. And for a whole lot of other things... and even if I didn't like all that happened, well, they do need to make 2 more.  8)

Kylo Ren has been a very naughty boy, and someone needs to put him in his place.

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Fri, 18 Dec  2015, 19:07
I loved it BECAUSE they made it like the original. And for a whole lot of other things... and even if I didn't like all that happened, well, they do need to make 2 more.  8)

I'm laughing at the people bitching about how it followed A New Hope a good bit. This is the start of brand new adventure for brand new characters in maybe the most iconic movie dealio ever. OF COURSE there was going to be a lot of parallels and homages and stuff. But it was so good.

Another thing that is funny is how the crazy people that can tell you everyone's blood type and the whole family tree of Wedge Antilles and just what was in that sh*t Luke was eating on Dagobah are nitpicking and whining. Nothing was ever going to satisfy them and of course it didn't. I'm a Star Wars fan about the same as I'm a Batman fan. I adore it, I try to learn as much as I can, but I'm not over the top obsessed with it. I think that's probably why I loved it so much. Well, that and BB8. He is so CUTE! I totally need him in my life. The way he gave Finn the thumbs up, omg. I laughed so hard.

I can't wait for Episode 8. The way the last scene set it up....omg. Epic.

I agree, bring on Episode VIII. Finally, no more of that melodrama of episodes I and II. These new ones are the real deal.  8)


And crazy fanboya can go hang...  :D

As great as it was to see Han, Leia, Chewie, the droids, and Luke, I've got to give props to the newbies.  Finn and Rey are great characters, and I'm really looking forward to their on-going adventures.  And of course, Kylo Ren is going to be one of the most hated villains of all time.

Yes, he's the villain the fans need to hate.  And I sure do. :P

Like I said I wanted to cut his moley face off. Ugh.

I'm just glad that stupid rumor that he was Luke Skywalker was proven false very early on. That would have killed me....and probably JJ Abrams. He would have had to go into witness protection if he turned Luke into the bad guy lol. I didn't believe it would happen (like it's totally not a spoiler that I say it didn't because if you use your brain - keep in mind this is me we're talking about...- then it's totally ridiculous to even have considered it in the first place) but I had just enough doubt that when they finally said who his character really is, I was half relieved and half shocked off my ass by the real identity.

A lot could have gone wrong, for sure,but Abrams is suited for Star Wars rather than Trek, so he delivered with The Force Awakens. From my POV, anyway.

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Sat, 19 Dec  2015, 02:18
A lot could have gone wrong, for sure,but Abrams is suited for Star Wars rather than Trek, so he delivered with The Force Awakens. From my POV, anyway.

I agree.  Apparently he is more of a fan of Star Wars than he is of Trek, and his dynamic, action-style direction better suits the former than the latter.  I'd like to see future Star Trek films go back to the more intellectual, philosophical style of the show and earlier movies.  Trek was always better at exploring ideas than depicting action IMHO.

Yes. Star Trek II : The Wrath of Khan was a hit thanks to Ricardo Montalban and the old Kirk-Spock-Bones dynamic plus the themes of aging and revenge. And remember that Kirk and Khan were never actually face to face. Trek was never meant to be about all the action.

So I never got the rivalry... they're simply too different for me to compare.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 18 Dec  2015, 22:09


I'm laughing at the people bitching about how it followed A New Hope a good bit. This is the start of brand new adventure for brand new characters in maybe the most iconic movie dealio ever. OF COURSE there was going to be a lot of parallels and homages and stuff. But it was so good.

Another thing that is funny is how the crazy people that can tell you everyone's blood type and the whole family tree of Wedge Antilles and just what was in that sh*t Luke was eating on Dagobah are nitpicking and whining. Nothing was ever going to satisfy them and of course it didn't. I'm a Star Wars fan about the same as I'm a Batman fan. I adore it, I try to learn as much as I can, but I'm not over the top obsessed with it. I think that's probably why I loved it so much. Well, that and BB8. He is so CUTE! I totally need him in my life. The way he gave Finn the thumbs up, omg. I laughed so hard.

I can't wait for Episode 8. The way the last scene set it up....omg. Epic.

Yes. Great movie overall, but this ending.. The movie telegraphs it, but it was so perfectly executed. Not a line of dialogue wasted, just music. Many of us thought Williams' best work was in the past, but this was one of his best.

Ok I'm going to talk about a couple spoilers, with the text in white.

ONLY HIGHLIGHT THIS IF YOU HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE!

As much as Han's death upset me a ton (I'm still struggling with it tbh, and I still want to pull every one of Adam Driver's moles off with a pair of channellocks) I saw something someone said about it that made it all make sense. In The Phantom Menace, Obi-Wan sees his mentor and his first real father figure killed before him when Darth Maul stabs Qui Gon Jinn. In A New Hope, Luke sees his mentor and his first real father figure killed before him when Darth Vader kills Obi-Wan. Han sort of fit those roles for Rey and Finn both to a degree. It just "fit the mold" and I know people are pissed that it followed a mold to start with but they need to get over it. As for getting over Han's death, idk. I may or may not have broken down when I saw the Han Solo action figure I got a few weeks ago after I got home from the movie. I mean I get it. It adds total emotional gravity to this whole chapter, like no matter what good happens and even if Luke and Leia reunite and Rey becomes the greatest Jedi Master ever and everyone else lives happily ever after, we freaking lost Han Solo. It feels a little exploitative (both by JJ Abrams and by Harrison Ford since everyone knows he wanted Han to die a long time ago and he got fans so excited for the comeback and then it ends in the first movie) but it also makes total sense so I guess I need to quit freaking crying about it. But just....ugh. Han Solo's gone yall. Damn.

I think Rey is the first character in like a multiple film dealio that I have ever been this interested in. I am so excited to see where the future takes her, after what we saw in TFA. There are like a ton of rumors about her being Luke's daughter or having some sort of Skywalker lineage. One of the big hints is that R2D2 suddenly wakes up when he senses her (and perhaps her Skywalker genes) nearby. I personally am going to wait until the movie tells us lol. I get the sense that we will find out a lot more about her in Episode 8 even if it isn't the full story. I'm really excited to see her grow in the Force too and hopefully become a Jedi (if she falls to the dark side I may hurt someone). I know her being so force-sensitive and capable with a lightsaber and stuff has been dismissed by some people who think only men are supposed to be able to save the world as feminist pandering by Disney and Abrams but as a girl who loves watching men save the world, it's so exciting that there is a female character like Rey that could become such a huge focal point of something as massive and epic as Star Wars, especially if she is a Skywalker.

Damnit the background isn't as pure white as I thought. I hope it blends enough that I didn't just f***ing ruin the movie for someone.

I managed to see the movie yesterday in an English speaking cinema in Bern. Here's my general thoughts.

While I think it's just underneath the classic trilogy, it's a serviceable and solid entry. I think that's understandable from the filmmakers point of view given the response the prequels had. I think TFA gives the new trilogy a good launchpad for future films, and the characters are interesting and likeable.

I'm interested in Rey's journey, Finn's backstory is interesting and I find Kylo Ren pleasantly three dimensional. Conflicted and full of doubt. Feeling pressure to prove himself. Great stuff.

I'm giving this a 7/10. Nothing iconic or straight out memorable about it, but nonetheless, a pleasant viewing experience and one that makes me excited to see what happens next. That's where I think the new trilogy will really take flight, aka TESB following ANH.

I'll add more later but that's all for now. My rankings:

1. TESB
2. ROTJ
3. ANH
4. ROTS
5. TFA
6. TPM
7. AOTC

Did anyone else like Poe Dameron? He totally fits the Han mold of handsome smartass and incredible pilot. I like handsome smartasses, particularly those that are good guys. ;)

Yes, Kitty likes the bad boys with the good heart. Cliche I know.

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed, 23 Dec  2015, 07:47

Yes, Kitty likes the bad boys with the good heart. Cliche I know.

I know.  And I like you the most, especially a part of you that's right in the... middle. And loves to to be shown.   ;)

Shhhh

;)  :-*

My rankings:

1. ANH
2. ROTJ
3. ROTS
4. TESB
5. TFA
6. TPM
7. AOTC


Top 5 very good.  :)

My rankings:

1. Episode IV
2. Episode V
3. Episode VI
4. Episode VII
5. Episode III
6. Episode II
7. Episode I

I think The Empire Strikes Back is the most consistently good all the way throughout, but A New Hope has more great scenes scattered throughout.  And the final third of Return of the Jedi, with the cross-cutting between the three-way fight on Endor, the space dogfight, and the Death Star lightsabre battle, is my favourite part of any of the entire Star Wars series.

Episode V is pretty good, but not as enjoyable as those in my top 3. Mainly because it's the middle of the story. Upon re-watching the saga, I've come to that ranking.

I agree that although I didn't like "The Force Awakens" as much as the Original Trilogy (growing up loving those films, and of course all the nostalgia plays a hand in that), I found TFA to be a fun viewing, with numerous questions that are hopefully answered (atleast most of them) in the upcoming episodes. If anything, I believe Abrams achieved his job in setting up the franchise for the future. Interesting to see where it goes from here, and of course, looking VERY much forward to it.

Rankings:

1. ANH
2. ROTJ
3. TESB
4. TFA
5. ROTS
6. TPM
7. AOFC

I have to admit I'm a born again Star Wars fan. I'd probably give TFA an 8/10 now, and I've been busy playing Battlefront on PS4. I'm back to being a kid again, which is a great place to be. You can really get lost in the Star Wars universe because it's so rich. And of course fun.

To be honest, I do not have stellar expectations (pun intended), like expecting new movies to be as good as the earliest ones, Star Wars has always been about the entertainment and the "space fantasy" feel. In TFA, it was that again, with no more talk about "the chosen one" and cells.  ;D

I bought someone the "official" TFA magazine, and of course I had to read through it first lol. It has a lot of wonderful interviews with much of the cast and with JJ Abrams and other people and what I love is how much they all kept going back to how it was so important that the movie used real effects and real sets and puppets and stuff instead of green screens and computers because that was a big part (not as big as the stories or characters of course but still a really big part) of why I loved it. John Boyega (Finn) talks about how even after the cameras stopped rolling the puppeteers kept the characters moving and how he was having conversations with species he'd never seen before and how BB-8 had such an attitude on set lol.

That's what made the visuals of the originals in their original format so wonderful, that it was like a real galaxy far far away. I totally get that George had this splendid vision and the computers let him do that and Star Wars was his baby after all so he was like very well within his rights but there was something very magical about everything they put together way back when and they hurt it a little with the special editions and then blew all of that with the prequels. Part of what made me love TFA so much is how everything is really there and I only have to use my imagination to be in the story and not to make myself believe in computer generated stuff. It's like I said a while back that there is a warm humanity or whatever to movies like TFA and the originals. CGI is too cold and inhuman when it comes to "live" action movies. Use it too much and I can't relate to what the characters are going through which is totally what Star Wars was about, right?

Sooooo yeah. [/kittysimpassiondcaseforpracticaleffects]

lol. I'm picturing y'all all going "Wow what is this bitch off on now?" :P Hey, I'm not just some bubblehead blonde bimbo who goes "OOO SHINY!" The shiny has to really be there ;)

TFA to me was very much like the original from 1977, with a few tweaks, except of course it was not original. So, pretty good.   ;D

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/1412424_10156266215380062_3809732618534432189_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9)

Windu ain't no Jedi they ever heard of... because all the focus was on Hayden and Padme in those films.

Does anyone else feel good about the way they're going with Rey, at least ?

And what's Lando Calrissian?  Chopped liver?  FFS he was played by the legend that is Billy Dee Williams AKA Harvey Dent!

I haven't seen the movie so I haven't read any posts in this thread.

The 25 year old colors would probably kick the 35 year old colors right in the nards for this but not only did I skip seeing a new Star Wars movie on opening day, I didn't even see it on opening weekend. Hell, it'll probably be 2016 before I finally watch it.

*sigh*

What happens in life? How the hell did it ever come to this? I don't know.

But I just don't give a flaming crap about what looks to be a Star Wars movie where the old generation passes the baton to a politically correct assortment of fresh-faced, CW-friendly children so that they can pretend to be Jedi or something.

If this movie was going to be nothing but a nostalgia-laden romp starring Hamill, Fisher, Ford, the Colt 45 guy and the droids, I'd be there with freaking bells on. But I really have no interest in "a new generation" taking over. No, I'm still rather fond of the old generation, thanks. I'd like to stick with them.

Same thing happened with TDKRises, actually. I think that movie was out for about a month or something before I saw it. I'd seen every Batman movie on opening day since 1989. But TDKRises just didn't do it for me. I see SOME value in TDKRises now, sure... but even knowing what I do about TDKRises, I still wouldn't have scrambled to see it opening day.

What a long, strange journey it's been...

I understand that sentiment. I'm actually beginning to think unfavourably about TFA in some respects, and you'll hear about it all soon. It's not a terrible movie, but it's perhaps too dull and predictable for my liking. Whatever one thinks about the prequels, Lucas did bring the goods in the action department - the duels are well done, he introduced a host of new vehicles, locations and background characters. TFA lacks that, in my opinion.

TFA follows the New Hope plot line very, very closely and I could see Episode 8 evoking TESB quite a bit as well. I hope the new trilogy doesn't ape the original trilogy too much for fear of singing out of tune, thinking that's the kind of thing people want to see. When it could end up feeling like running out of new ideas.

I'd love to read George Lucas' treatment for Episode 7.

Basically, I think TFA is good but could have been better. I'm thinking the deleted scenes - and there's meant to be a number of them, could have helped.

If Episode VIII turns out to be TESB v 1.1 I don't think I'll bother to follow it.  :-\

Quote from: Max Shreck on Wed, 30 Dec  2015, 16:42
If Episode VIII turns out to be TESB v 1.1 I don't think I'll bother to follow it.  :-\

SPOILER Episode VII was basically ANH and TESB combined wasn't it?

 

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Wed, 30 Dec  2015, 20:04

Quote from: Max Shreck on Wed, 30 Dec  2015, 16:42
If Episode VIII turns out to be TESB v 1.1 I don't think I'll bother to follow it.  :-\

SPOILER Episode VII was basically ANH and TESB combined wasn't it?

Not really, it was just the former with a few tweaks, to me.  :)

Agreed. There are TESB influences but they're not dominant.

Quote from: Max Shreck on Wed, 30 Dec  2015, 16:42
If Episode VIII turns out to be TESB v 1.1 I don't think I'll bother to follow it.  :-\

If that happens, I wonder if we'll see (spoiler, highlight this ---->) Rey lose a limb to a lightsaber, maybe Luke's. Family tradition and all.

Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 31 Dec  2015, 03:19


If that happens, I wonder if we'll see (spoiler, highlight this ---->) Rey lose a limb to a lightsaber, maybe Luke's. Family tradition and all.

Maybe, but they should make it feel like an homage and not a rip-off.

As with many others, TFA was the catalyst for a rejuvenation of my interest to all things SW, as well as a movie-marathon, starting with Episode I. TPM and AOTC in particular, I hadn't watched in almost 10 years.

You know what, f**k the prequel bashers.

Quote from: Nycteris on Tue,  5 Jan  2016, 00:31
As with many others, TFA was the catalyst for a rejuvenation of my interest to all things SW, as well as a movie-marathon, starting with Episode I. TPM and AOTC in particular, I hadn't watched in almost 10 years.

You know what, f**k the prequel bashers.

I think many fans overact about the prequels, but it seems they really want to hate them. I can watch them just fine and there are far worse movies and "reboots" out there. They aren't as fun as the original films, but that doesn't mean they're worthless. I like ROTS a lot, TPM and AOTC less, but they go well together.

And I liked TFA.

The reception TFA has enjoyed from the core audience has really diminished my opinion of the Star Wars fanbase. If THIS is all it takes to make them happy, they've set their sights entirely too low. It's as simple as that.

The prequels aren't perfect. Hell, they're not even all that good. And the realization of that seems to have sent the core fanbase into mourning such that any half-baked facsimile of Star Wars will be acceptable to them.

That's the only way I can imagine them falling in love with Rey the Mary Sue, Poe the Gary Stu, Finn the Jar Jar Lite, BB8 the Basketball Version of Artoo and so forth.

I mean, this movie's big bad is a whiney, emo pretty boy that probably even Hayden Christensen looks at and thinks "Man, that dude is emo". And, of course, he basically has PTSD or something because that's what fictional characters need to have in order for Millennials to relate to them because they have PTSD from the time Mommy and Step-Daddy took away the go***mn Playstation. To make a clean job of it, I shouldn't be surprised to find out he's a vegetarian when Episode VIII- The First Order Strikes Back comes out.

Darth Vader was the personification of everything evil; Kylo Ren is the personification of everything that's wrong with my worthless generation. But nobody's perfect, I guess.

Han died. I mean, honestly, who didn't see that coming? Ford spent years alternately saying Han should've died in Return of the Jedi and that he'll never play Han again. Disproving the latter requires fulfilling the former in TFA. It was expected and not all that dramatic. To be honest I was more torqued off about the fact that it was happening just to pacify Harrison Ford than I was invested in the fact that this is Ren's Michael kills Fredo moment, the point when the character truly is irredeemable now.

Oh, speaking of Kylo Ren, I'm sure glad the Expanded Universe was scrapped so that we could have a movie where we discover Han Solo's son has turned to the Dark Side. Hacks.

John Williams. I rather enjoy the prequel scores. No, they're not as powerful or iconic as the oh-riginal trilogy but they're pretty solid. There's little or nothing about TFA's score that's memorable and still less that I care to listen to again. Nothing lasts forever. Williams was going to slip sooner or later. Now it seems he well and truly has.

Luke Skywalker. Sorry, I don't buy it. Luke overcame both of his mentors lying through their teeth to him. He refused to give up after the personification of everything evil lopped off his hand and clued him in on his true paternity. He didn't back down when he tried to reach the personification of everything evil and bring him back to the good side. He never compromised on his principles even when facing THE Dark Lord of the Sith. He risked his own life and the lives of all his friends just to save Han.

He wouldn't run off with his tail between his legs just because one of his students developed a hipster devotion to Vader. Especially not when said student is a blood relative (of which he has very few) and the child of his very best friends.

Luke Skywalker would've stood his ground and either killed Ren or gone down fighting.

Ultimately there's very little original about TFA. And what few original things TFA brings to the table are either amped up versions of stuff we've already seen or else unwelcome intrusions. I'd be less offended if TFA wasn't an official numbered entry into the Star Wars saga. If TFA was a standalone movie, I might even have enjoyed it a bit.

But as it is, TFA is everything I wanted Episode VII NOT to be. It's nostalgic in all the wrong ways while simultaneously emphasizing all the wrong characters. If it was a more original story, I'd be okay. If this retread plot centered on Han, Luke, Leia and no one else, I'd be okay. The precise configuration JJ Abrams made, however, is simply unacceptable.

Pretty harsh appraisal there, colors. I think the difference between yourself and a lot of fans (myself included) is that we went in either optimistic or with no expectations, while based off your posts in here you went in expecting to be disappointed and it happened. Instead of going in with a broader view you couldn't see the forest for the trees and nitpicked on every single thing. It's no surprise to me that you didn't enjoy it. If someone nitpicked that way about A New Hope they'd say it was crap too. I mean you have a right to your opinion and I'm not questioning that, but it's not exactly hard to see why you came to that conclusion.

I'll respond to the spoilers in a minute but since you questioned why people who are Star Wars fans liked it I guess I can say without spoiling anything that I liked it simply because I did. I didn't overthink it. Instead of going in there with all these preconceived notions of what the movie would or should be I let the characters take the journey while I followed along and I loved it. I found the heroes to be a likable new generation who I'm already emotionally invested in and Kylo Ren to be....well I better save that for a spoiler. I found the action scenes to be exhilarating. Yes there was a bit of a retread of the story of the original, but considering it is supposed to be 34 years after A New Hope (and we're seeing the new baddies coming to power so it's even longer since the rise of the Empire) it isn't at all far fetched that history would have repeated itself in a galaxy with a military history like that after a long period of time. I felt like there was enough freshness to overcome that though but maybe it's just me.

I think the most important thing to remember is that this is part one of three of this new generation. Some people are forgetting that we're going to see an evolution to these characters and the story. Which leads me to the main points I took issues with in your post, Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker.

The Supreme Leader's comment that he will "finish his training" about Kylo should be a signal that we're seeing a baddy that, like the First Order, is in a rising state. This isn't Darth Vader, feared across the galaxy and the baddest son of a bitch ever from the second he appears on screen in ANH. This is a character who is incredibly powerful and with his heritage as Leia's son and Anakin's grandson the potential to be just as bad as Vader was, but much growing left to do to reach that point. Just as we're going to see Rey grow in the force, it looks like we're meant to see Kylo grow and evolve as a Sith. Killing his father and taking the plunge to the dark side seemingly forever was the start of that. I think you got so lost in thinking this was a retread that you figured Kylo was supposed to have reached a Darth Vader level already (which if he was, you're right, he's a pathetic character, but it's obvious from the story that he is growing when we meet him).

As for Luke, I'm pretty sure we're going to find out why he "turned tail and ran" instead of staying and fighting Kylo after he slaughtered the Jedi order he was building in the next movie or Episode IX. It's easy to say the Luke we see in the original trilogy would have stayed and fought, but who knows what he would have done after that? This is 30 years after ROTJ, I don't remember if it was said exactly how long Ben Solo had been Kylo in the movie but based off his age and inexperience it would be fair to say that it was well over 20 years (maybe 25) after ROTJ that he rose up. Luke wouldn't have been a boy anymore, at that point. Age, wisdom, and growing himself as a Jedi knight and master might have taken the warrior we see in the originals out of him. Or at least tamed it. Maybe he was wearied by something, maybe he fled out of grief. We don't know and we weren't meant to know after this movie. Now if we get to 2019 and XI comes out and we don't find out, you can come back and say "Kitty, you're one dumb broad" but til then, I think it's pretty ridiculous to judge that plot point when all we've seen of him in the 30 years since the end of ROTJ is what we get at the very ending.

By the way, I never knew what "Mary Sue" and "Gary Stu" meant so I decided to look them up and calling either character that is pretty ridiculous, Rey in particular. We see plenty of flaws with her.

I can see the argument from both sides, but ultimately like the movie overall because I had a fun time with it. I have my own ideas as to why Luke disappeared, and it doesn't automatically paint him in a negative light. If you want to know what I think, prod and I'll spill my beans. And really, hanging plot threads are hanging plot threads. There's every chance 'plot holes' won't be plot holes in Episode 8. We just need to know more.

So I understand that "Mary Sue" is a degraded term that now apparently means "female character I don't like," but I'm gonna draw a line here: Rey is not a Mary Sue.

She is a heroic protagonist in a pulp action movie. A Mary Sue is an authorial self-insert wish fulfillment character. As a heroic protagonist Rey is granted a baseline competence to allow her to participate in the action. Throughout the course of the film she earns the respect of several characters through her competence, and forms a bond with Han to serve a story and character function. She also grows in ability and competence throughout the film as she answers the Call to Adventure. Which is very much like Luke's arc 40 years ago.

Rey's arc is about learning not to cling to the past and learning to embrace the future. She goes from obsessively wanting to stay on Jakku because her family might come back, to accepting that they won't, but that others will (and Finn does come back for her) which gives her the strength to embrace the force and head towards her destiny. But with her look at the end of the movie (she's basically begging Luke to take the light saber) we know her arc isn't done yet.

If that isn't a character arc. I don't know what is. That's some classic heroes' journey type stuff right there.

If she was a Mary Sue, none of that would have been earned, it just woulda kinda sorta happen/happened.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  5 Jan  2016, 11:21
And really, hanging plot threads are hanging plot threads. There's every chance 'plot holes' won't be plot holes in Episode 8. We just need to know more.

This. All of this. Which is what I was trying to say lol.

I'm interested in your Luke theory also.

I gather there were skirmishes between the First Order and the Resistance for some time, but things only escalated recently with the Starkiller weapon becoming operational. Luke being away is being interpreted by some as running away, hiding and giving up. I think there is definitely an element of brooding going on. But I also think Luke has been working at the same time. Ben Solo destroyed Luke's dream of establishing a new Jedi Order with his massacre. It is my opinion Luke deliberately sought out the first Jedi temple in an effort to rekindle this dream.

How?

By triggering an awakening in the force, the one which Ren and Snoke have felt. With less Jedi, Luke first needs people to feel the force so he can actually train people in its use. I don't think it's that far-fetched. Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda all learned how to become one with the force via 'training'. Luke finding a way to awaken the force in others could be feasible, and this ability could obviously take time to master and execute. Hence his time away.

And I've seen people saying the happy ending of ROTJ is tarnished because of TFA. I don't see how. Anakin brought balance to the force for 30 or so years and the Sith remain extinct. Han and Leia have a good life for some time and have a child. Luke does start training Jedi and flexes his muscle. The Empire sustained heavy losses and it took some time before the First Order rose up. The betrayal by Ben Solo threw a spanner in all their works, and again, that was some time after ROTJ. Things were good, but time moves forward and life is life. Of course there are trials, tribulations and failures we face in life.

I totally agree with you about the people talking about how it ruins the good vibes of the end of ROTJ. Look at real life. VE day was such a celebratory time, did it last forever? No. It lasted a hell of a lot less time than this fictional peacetime did, since the Korean War started just a few years afterwards, not to mention all the ugliness of the Vietnam War after that. It is so silly that people think the peace would have lasted forever in a world like that.

And I really like your theory about Luke. The power you mention, it would not surprise me since we're led to believe that Luke became the greatest Jedi ever. Him discovering that kind of power would fit with that (and be really badass on top of that lol). I'm just really eager to see what comes with Episode VIII since I think this is a question that will be answered. I think a lot of the really big questions will get answered in this one sort of like Luke's destiny and all were revealed in ESB, then everything will come to a head like the end of ROTJ (which is so epic between the Empire's last stand and the duel between Luke and Vader and then Anakin's redemption that it would be impossible to tarnish it anyway. God those people are stupid). But that's a very interesting idea.

I really like TDK's theories on it, and I hope they are proven right.

TFA definitely opened up the way for a trilogy more similar to the original, which could be great.

I think any sequel/follow-up to ROTJ was inevitably going to 'ruin' the good vibes left at the end of that movie.  The only way it wouldn't is if the new films were entirely conflict and tension-free and all the characters lived happily ever after, which was never going to happen.

But there has clearly been such a long gap between ROTJ and TFA that it's fair to say that the heroics of Episode VI were not in vain and that the galaxy has been fairly stable and peaceful for a long while.

But sadly, nothing lasts forever even, indeed especially, peace and TFA makes it clear that every victory of good over evil has its shelf-life until the next evil emerges.

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2016/01/dream-of-a-galaxy-far-far-away-with-a-poe-dameron-body-pillow/

Well now....um....I.....uh....well..... :-[

I wouldn't say that Poe Dameron is fascinating. But he is... interesting.

Quote from: Catwoman on Tue,  5 Jan  2016, 08:34By the way, I never knew what "Mary Sue" and "Gary Stu" meant so I decided to look them up and calling either character that is pretty ridiculous, Rey in particular. We see plenty of flaws with her.

Name a few.

I can name one or two for Finn, a big one for Luke (though it's totally retroactive thanks to TFA), flaws for Han and Leia and probably other characters too.

But if Rey has any, I (and others) totally missed them.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  6 Jan  2016, 07:50

Quote from: Catwoman on Tue,  5 Jan  2016, 08:34By the way, I never knew what "Mary Sue" and "Gary Stu" meant so I decided to look them up and calling either character that is pretty ridiculous, Rey in particular. We see plenty of flaws with her.

Name a few.

Ok :)

Spoilers ahead for people who haven't seen the movie.

First of all would a Mary Sue be living a scavenger's life on some desert planet, surviving on quarter portions of whatever the hell that was that she was eating? No. She would be living the good life as supermodel Miss Galaxy.

Would a Mary Sue be so wrapped up in her own emotions and her own selfish desire to get back to Jakku (even though, like Maz says, she knows the people she's waiting for are never coming back) when the Resistance needs her that she runs away from the castle? No. She wouldn't have even needed Maz to clean the Falcon or lead them to the base, she would have recognized the ship was dirty, blown every other ship out of the sky anyway, flown straight to the Resistance base, waltzed right up to General Leia, pop bubblegum, say "I'll handle this, girlfriend," hack the Starkiller base and blow it up while humming the Star Wars theme (Cause she is so self-aware) and watching a kitten video on BB-8's projection screen.

Would a Mary Sue have been captured by Kylo Ren so easily after he froze her in place, read her thoughts, and knocked her unconscious (this after she forgot to take the safety off her gun)? No. She would have let him read the deepest, darkest, most horrible thing she could think of so he was incapacitated by horror, then kicked the ever loving sh*t out of him.

Would a Mary Sue stand by and watch the (apparent) first father figure and mentor in her life be struck down in front of her eyes, helpless to do anything? No. She would have probably counseled Kylo Ren into giving up the dark side altogether, getting him to hug Han, then they would have all destroyed the base together and had a party on the Falcon.

Would a Mary Sue get flung like a rag doll into a tree with a flick of Kylo Ren's wrist (and the force)? No. She would have turned the flick against him and thrown him into the f***ing sun, which never would have gotten sucked dry by Starkiller base to start with cause, like, she disabled that before this movie even started yo.

Would a Mary Sue have needed Kylo to be rather seriously injured (remember he got shot by Chewie's crossbow which is shown repeatedly in the movie to pack a hell of a punch, which is why he was able to later be further wounded by Finn) in order to hold her own in a lightsaber duel? Hell no. She could have taken 500 Darth Vaders by herself. This chump is little more than a fart in her sleep.

Would a Mary Sue have needed R2 D2's larger Imperial map to go along with BB-8's piece to find Luke? No. She could have taken BB-8's piece, said "I know right where that is!", taken everyone there, and as soon as Luke saw her he would have immediately taken the lightsaber from her, thanked her with a big hug, and then everyone would have sang along to the Ewok victory song.

Basically if she was flawless this movie would have ended with a crawl talking about how amazing she was and we could have all gone home.

Your complaint that she is a Mary Sue obviously comes from the fact that she was able to think quickly on her feet, was resourceful, and so forth. If you would have paid attention to the narrative of the movie instead of finding every tidbit to nitpick and piss and moan about you would have found plenty to substantiate all of that. She lives a scavenger life. She has to be resourceful to survive. She has had to learn to recognize what is valuable, how to make things work, and so on in order to be allowed to even eat. She's not flawless. She's had to learn and adapt in order to survive and she's able to apply the skills she's acquired through that in order to keep surviving and play a role in saving the day. A Mary Sue would have had zero issue surviving and she would have saved the day on her own. She's only flawless if someone watching the movie isn't paying attention, in which case you shouldn't even waste our f***ing time.

You know, this sh*t is why people are crying sexism when it comes to Rey. If a male character does what she's able to do in the movie, oh, well, that's just the way it works (except in colors case, I'm still wondering how Poe Dameron is a "Gary Stu" when he was captured in the beginning after watching that whole village be massacred and not being able to stop it, then Kylo Ren was able to read his thoughts to find out the map was with BB-8). But she does it and she's all flawless and such a bad character and all this garbage. I don't throw the sexism label around very much but if the shoe fits right now, wear it.

Fair call. I have zero issue with a female being the hero of the piece. And I like the fact a black actor gets a front and centre role in a big franchise. That's how you do it - create original characters. Don't hijack existing ones.

I am a fan of Rey and Finn. They haven't disappointed me with the new characters or the old in TFA.

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed,  6 Jan  2016, 12:36First of all would a Mary Sue be living a scavenger's life on some desert planet, surviving on quarter portions of whatever the hell that was that she was eating? No. She would be living the good life as supermodel Miss Galaxy.

You obviously don't understand what a Mary Sue is.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  6 Jan  2016, 19:22

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed,  6 Jan  2016, 12:36First of all would a Mary Sue be living a scavenger's life on some desert planet, surviving on quarter portions of whatever the hell that was that she was eating? No. She would be living the good life as supermodel Miss Galaxy.

You obviously don't understand what a Mary Sue is.

You apparently don't either. It's an autobiographical character stuck into a fanfic for self-serving purposes and is so perfect and wonderful. Rey is a wonderful character, but not perfect.

This argument is f***ing stupid anyway. You hated it. Yippy dippy damn. Why the hell am I wasting time trying to present opposing points? Cause I'm an idiot, that's why.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  6 Jan  2016, 16:36
Fair call. I have zero issue with a female being the hero of the piece. And I like the fact a black actor gets a front and centre role in a big franchise. That's how you do it - create original characters. Don't hijack existing ones.

I'm very pleased to see we agree on this topic.  :)

It reminds me of the old days when we used to get along.  :)

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  6 Jan  2016, 16:36
Fair call. I have zero issue with a female being the hero of the piece. And I like the fact a black actor gets a front and centre role in a big franchise. That's how you do it - create original characters. Don't hijack existing ones.

I agree about creating original characters. Changing existing characters to pacify a few doesn't really satisfy anyone. Fans of the original should keep that version while people wanting a character in their ethnicity should get someone new and fresh that they can wrap their arms around and enjoy instead of a cheap, lame-ass rewrite. The thing is, and this is the case with Finn, if it's a good character then he or she will appeal to everyone.

As for John Boyega, the fact that he's black meant something to me for about 5 seconds when I saw him in the trailer. It was like "Hm, wonder who this guy is." When the trailer was over, I looked him up and about the only way I knew to describe him was "black guy in the Star Wars trailer," I found out he's a huge ass Star Wars fan (did y'all see the hilarious video of him with all the Star Wars merchandise?) and was like "Cool. Hi John." I mean yes it's good that things are diversifying or whatever but a person's race quit interesting me a long time ago. The only races I'm interested in are the ones I watch on TV or attend in person so I guess I didn't get that excited about it. I just wanted a good enjoyable interesting character and Finn totally is. He's hilarious but he's also so convincingly serious when he's supposed to be.

What did y'all think of Supreme Leader Snoke (I nearly typed "Supreme Leader Kitty Snoke".....blame The Joker...our Joker, not THE Joker...)? Of course first off he was ugly as hell (I saw a thing that said something like he looked like Voldemort and Golum had a baby and then tried to kill it with an ax lol) but there's like a very intriguing mystery around him too. I wonder if he just sits on a throne and gives orders, if he is actually a capable fighter (presumably with a lightsaber), and if he's really as big as his hologram lol.

Damnit. I wish it was time for Episode VIII and I just realized tomorrow will be just three freaking weeks since I saw Episode VII. Son of a bitch.

I think it would be hilarious if Snoke's hologram was magnified and he turned out in reality to be as tiny as Yoda.

Apparently he's meant to be seven foot.

I have a theory about him too.

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed,  6 Jan  2016, 20:00You apparently don't either. It's an autobiographical character stuck into a fanfic for self-serving purposes and is so perfect and wonderful. Rey is a wonderful character, but not perfect.

This argument is f***ing stupid anyway. You hated it. Yippy dippy damn. Why the hell am I wasting time trying to present opposing points? Cause I'm an idiot, that's why.

I think you need to take a few deep breaths and relax. This is a movie, not a contact sport. This thread is supposed to be about our reaction to TFA. I shared my opinion. What precisely is the problem here?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  7 Jan  2016, 07:09

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed,  6 Jan  2016, 20:00You apparently don't either. It's an autobiographical character stuck into a fanfic for self-serving purposes and is so perfect and wonderful. Rey is a wonderful character, but not perfect.

This argument is f***ing stupid anyway. You hated it. Yippy dippy damn. Why the hell am I wasting time trying to present opposing points? Cause I'm an idiot, that's why.

I think you need to take a few deep breaths and relax. This is a movie, not a contact sport. This thread is supposed to be about our reaction to TFA. I shared my opinion. What precisely is the problem here?

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  7 Jan  2016, 05:02
Apparently he's meant to be seven foot.

I have a theory about him too.

Darth Plaqueandgingivitis or whatever his name is?

Quote from: Catwoman on Thu,  7 Jan  2016, 08:48

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu,  7 Jan  2016, 05:02
Apparently he's meant to be seven foot.

I have a theory about him too.

Darth Plaqueandgingivitis or whatever his name is?

They didn't quite give that Sith lord Darth Plagueis a nice name considering he had the power to create life.  ;D Some say he's Snoke.

I would personally love it if Super Leader Kitty .... er Supreme Leader Snoke is infact, Darth Plagueis.   :D

Though at the same time, I really can't say I would be extremely disappointed if Snoke's just a brand new character, but the pieces of the puzzle signaling that Snoke IS Plagueis seem to fit very well into what we know of the current Star Wars universe. The scars. The talked about music cues/score (which Snoke's theme is said to be very reminiscent of when then-Senator Palpatine spoke of Plagueis to Anakin in Episode III). Kylo Ren referring to Snoke as "Wise" (one again, much like how Palpatine did in EP III). Said to have witnessed the Empire rise and fall, which clearly suggests the character has been around quite awhile...

Could be more, but that's the stuff that I can think of off the top of my head in making the possible Supreme Leader Snoke/Darth Plagueis connection. For me personally, this theory possibly being fleshed out more in Episode 8 is something I am looking very much forward to, outside of Luke getting a much bigger role of course. Who, I really want to see him in some scene just strut being a Jedi Master now, and laying waste to some First Order Nazis. A single moment of Deus Ex Skywalker at the very least!

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 00:53

I would personally love it if Super Leader Kitty .... er Supreme Leader Snoke is infact, Darth Plagueis.   :D

Gonna kick your ass....

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 06:07
Gonna kick your ass....

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffree0.hiboox.com%2Fimages%2F0116%2Fdbaa976441b7a1616dd12f4b80edcfce.gif&hash=3a5034b034c3ab4f32b7a1638b19025bbb18b965)

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 06:15

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 06:07
Gonna kick your ass....

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffree0.hiboox.com%2Fimages%2F0116%2Fdbaa976441b7a1616dd12f4b80edcfce.gif&hash=3a5034b034c3ab4f32b7a1638b19025bbb18b965)

Don't make me go Galactic Nurse Ratched on you. Give you a colonoscopy with Kylo Ren's lightsaber. "Mefication time, Randall." :)

I'd definitely be a dark side user. Dispatching my enemies with agressive brutality. The Jedi, especially in the prequel trilogy, were head in the sand, complacent fools who largely got what they deserved because of that. Palpatine's ascension to power is very relevant and true to today's current climate as well.

The Emperor and Darth Vader were more powerful than any Jedi up to Luke Skywalker.

I'd be a Sith too. Passion.

And other than the Skywalkers, I also think Qui Gon Jinn was strong as a Jedi, he did teach Yoda the way to appear in "spirit form", although Darth Maul defeated him, as was Mace Windu, quite strong, it took Anakin and Sidious to beat him, and Ben Kenobi had an advantage against Vader being his former mentor.

Yoda was indeed arrogant. But Obi-Wan believed in Luke as Qui-Gon believed in Anakin.

Are there any good Siths?

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 16:43
Are there any good Siths?

Good is a point of view.  ;)

Darth Plagueis the Wise could influence midichlorians to create life. And that is what made Anakin Skywalker choose the Sith way, other than feeling that the Jedi didn't trust him, unlike his friend the Chancellor.

Quote from: Max Shreck on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 16:47

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 16:43
Are there any good Siths?

Good is a point of view.  ;)

Darth Plagueis the Wise could influence midichlorians to create life. And that is what made Anakin Skywalker choose the Sith way, other than feeling that the Jedi didn't trust him, unlike his friend the Chancellor.

So in other words, the answer to my question is 'no'.

Fine, I think I'll stick to the 'light side' then, and the Jedis, just as I suspected was the right thing to do.

And there's no POV when it comes to Anakin Skywalker hacking innocent Padwan to death.  :-\

Anakin loved Padme' more than anything. Yoda told him to let go. He could not. And he was willing to do anything to save her. Even kill innocents. Because he cared more about her than the rest. Jedi are supposed to feel compassion, not passion, which is why they can't marry or have children.

So yes, good really is a POV in some situations.

Quote from: Max Shreck on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 17:04
Anakin loved Padme' more than anything. Yoda told him to let go. He could not. And he was willing to do anything to save her. Even kill innocents. Because he cared more about her than the rest. Jedi are supposed to feel compassion, not passion, which is why they can't marry or have children.

So yes, good really is a POV in some situations.

Compassion is a much higher and more admirable virtue than passion.  And someone who possesses that much power must sometimes repress their desires for the common good.

I disagree. I prefer passion because that is how I am. Same as Anakin. I will stay true to myself. It is the jedi path I cannot follow. :)


"I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate."

"What's that make us?"

"Absolutely nothing! Which is what you are about to become."  ;D

Quote from: Max Shreck on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 16:33
I'd be a Sith too.

A dark side user and a Sith Lord are two different things. The Sith are a religious cult with aims of galactic domination, with their modus operandi definitely evil. A darksider uses the force like a Sith but aren't tied to their customs. They do as they please, essentially being their own person. To me it's about intent. What one does with power. I think evil needs to be dealt with swiftly and with no mercy. A guy who kills young kids is an animal and should never be forgiven. I get why Anakin did it in the context of the film, but rationalising such barbarism of innocents is a no-go zone for me.

And indeed, the arrogance of the Jedi was central to their demise. Count Dooku straight up tells Obi-Wan about Sidious, his current scheming and his endgame. Obi-Wan immediately says "I don't believe you." More like he didn't want to believe it, but indeed, it was all true. One film later the Jedi were all but extinct. These things are a slow burn but it eventually does happen. And like the Empire and Sith, when they take over, it's usually for a long time.

"Only now at the end do you understand."

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 18:22

Quote from: Max Shreck on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 16:33
I'd be a Sith too.

A dark side user and a Sith Lord are two different things. The Sith are a religious cult with aims of galactic domination, with their modus operandi definitely evil. A darksider uses the force like a Sith but aren't tied to their customs. They do as they please, essentially being their own person. To me it's about intent. What one does with power. I think evil needs to be dealt with swiftly and with no mercy. A guy who kills young kids is an animal and should never be forgiven. I get why Anakin did it in the context of the film, but rationalising such barbarism of innocents is a no-go zone for me.

I don't want to be Jedi, so whatever works. I was not aware you could use the Force without subscribing to one of them eventually, Jedi or Sith.

Dark side it is. To destroy evil.  8)

Kylo Ren isn't a Sith, for example. But he subscribes to the First Order's point of view.

I see. But what difference does it make if you are Jedi or Sith or you just use the Light Side or Dark Side, then ?  :-\

Just a matter of ideologies ?

Jedi and Sith are a complete way of life. A philosophy. I think both have their pluses and minuses, but a mix of the two is ideal in my book.

A real world point of view: Someone can consider themselves spiritual but not subscribe to any organised religion.

I see. Then I don't think I like either of them so much.  ;D

Also, what did you think Dooku was trying to do? He warned Kenobi but next thing you know he was the Chancellor's apprentice ?

The Dark Side is about dedication to power. That's inherently selfish. There's nothing wrong with wanting what's good for you. But there is something wrong with getting what's good for you by using force (so to speak) to take it from others.

The Good Side is characterized by willing the good of other people. At their purest, I think this is why the Jedi lived a relatively ascetic life and were taught to not develop attachments to anything or anyone. If your life is so dedicated to helping others that you act only for someone else's good, it's theoretically less likely you'll use your power to harm others.

The hell of it is that when Palpatine told Anakin that the Jedi were seeking greater power in Episode III, he wasn't really wrong.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 21:46
The Dark Side is about dedication to power. That's inherently selfish. There's nothing wrong with wanting what's good for you. But there is something wrong with getting what's good for you by using force (so to speak) to take it from others.

The Good Side is characterized by willing the good of other people. At their purest, I think this is why the Jedi lived a relatively ascetic life and were taught to not develop attachments to anything or anyone. If your life is so dedicated to helping others that you act only for someone else's good, it's theoretically less likely you'll use your power to harm others.

Wise words thecolorsblend.  :)

Like you say, there's nothing at all wrong with wanting to improve one's lot, that's human nature and ambition is mostly a virtue, but it is wrong to so at the expense of others.

And asceticism often gets a bad name, particularly in our modern materialist society, but there's a lot to be said for those that put the world, and indeed the universe, at large ahead of their own personal desires.

It's Light Side, not Good Side, and Dark Side. And they are both sides of the same thing, the Force.

And I do not think Anakin Skywalker was "selfish" because of wanting to save his wife. But everyone believes what they like.  I do the same.

Palpatine lied to everyone to reach his goal. And so he did. The sci-fi Machiavelli.  ;)

Quote from: Max Shreck on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 23:23
It's Light Side, not Good Side, and Dark Side. And they are both sides of the same thing, the Force.

And I do not think Anakin Skywalker was "selfish" because of wanting to save his wife. But everyone believes what they like.  I do the same.

Palpatine lied to everyone to reach his goal. And so he did. The sci-fi Machiavelli.  ;)

But I suspect thecolorsblend and I wouldn't be foolish enough to fool for Palpatine's lies.  I'd like to think you'd be the same, Max.

Don't be so sure. The only character who did not give in was Luke Skywalker. The Jedi and the Rebellion would not have defeated the Empire without him and his sister and Han and Lando and co.  But Luke is the one that brought them together. :)

But that's beside the point. I don't wish to refrain from loving a person because of some Monk code.  ;D

I mentioned this to Edd/Max on Facebook today (or was it yesterday? sleep deprivation is kicking my asssss). Since Disney/Lucasfilm did away with the EU as it was maybe they should use that opportunity to introduce certain characters into the new movies and make them officially part of the new canon or whatever (for some reason I'm hearing C-3PO talking about the rebels now being a part of the Ewok tribe lol). The one I specifically mentioned was Prince Xizor from Shadows of the Empire (and of course his badass blonde android henchgirl Guri ;D ). I think he would make a far better rival for Kylo Ren than General Opie Taylor. I never read any of the EU books except the epic Shadows of the Empire comic and its sequel called "Evolution" which is about what happens with Guri after Xizor is killed by Vader(it was sooooo good)  but maybe some of the other real popular characters from those stories could be used?

Well, as far as I know, in the EU even Luke had a child. I haven't read much of the "future" stories, honestly, I was more interested in the Old Republic and the Clone Wars.

A lot of possibilities, they could take a hint or two, especially about Xizor.

Maybe there are fans here who know more.

It's interesting "Shadows of the Empire" got brought up, considering that "Shadow of the Empire" was a title that was considered for Episode 7 before "The Force Awakens" was ultimately decided upon. Which I'm kinda glad of, due to my memories of "Shadows of the Empire" getting a good bit of publicity back in 1996 as a major Star Wars event (A novel, Games, Comics, Action Figures, ect Pretty much everything without having an actual fully realized film.) and which was just prior to the re-releases the following year in 1997.

Putting the EU out to pasture is kinda like the fallout of "Crisis on Infinite Earths". On one hand, you're effectively eliminating alot of good material, but on another, you're now allowed to re-introduce characters without having to adhere to whatever continuity/personality/rivalry that was established previously with those same said characters. I've read rumors about Benicio Del Toro playing Grand Admiral Thrawn which would be neat.

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  9 Jan  2016, 00:25It's interesting "Shadows of the Empire" got brought up, considering that "Shadow of the Empire" was a title that was considered for Episode 7 before "The Force Awakens" was ultimately decided upon.

Do you mean Heir to the Empire?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  9 Jan  2016, 02:25
Do you mean Heir to the Empire?

No. Though I know what you're referring to is the 1st book of the Thrawn Trilogy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/12/28/star-wars-the-force-awakens-was-once-called-shadow-of-the-empire/

Ahhhhh, Episode VII was originally titled "Shadows of the Empire", eh? Huh, guess I can see why the changed the title. Because, um, there's already a "Shadows of the Empire". It may not be canon anymore but it still exists.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  8 Jan  2016, 21:46
The Dark Side is about dedication to power. That's inherently selfish. There's nothing wrong with wanting what's good for you. But there is something wrong with getting what's good for you by using force (so to speak) to take it from others.

The Good Side is characterized by willing the good of other people. At their purest, I think this is why the Jedi lived a relatively ascetic life and were taught to not develop attachments to anything or anyone. If your life is so dedicated to helping others that you act only for someone else's good, it's theoretically less likely you'll use your power to harm others.

Would you consider blowing up the strongman and shooting the Joker's men an act of selfishness? I would consider it an act for the greater good, and not making Batman a bad person. I think the Jedi are inherently good, but lack the decisiveness to deal with threats. If power is missused at the expense of child killers like Anakin, it's no loss.

Without Anakin, there would be no Luke either. The Dark Side and the Light Side may be opposites, but they are  opposing sides of the Force. Same as how the Sith focus on themselves for power, while the Jedi have compassion.

And once again, I don't think the Jedi of the prequels were "good" or that Anakin was "evil". In the original films, it was pretty clear. And those films actually worked better. There's something appealing about the good guys fighting evil... especially when it comes to destroying giant space stations.  :)

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  9 Jan  2016, 03:13Would you consider blowing up the strongman and shooting the Joker's men an act of selfishness? I would consider it an act for the greater good, and not making Batman a bad person. I think the Jedi are inherently good, but lack the decisiveness to deal with threats. If power is missused at the expense of child killers like Anakin, it's no loss.

Those instances you cite were still in defense of the city and of the people. A bit brutal, perhaps, but still ultimately benevolent.

On the other hand, I have a very hard time seeing Batman as a pure virtuous hero anyway so there you go.

From RotS novelization.

"It is said that if one could ever entirely comprehend a single
grain of sand—really, truly understand everything about it—one
would, at the same time, entirely comprehend the universe.
Who's to say that a Sith, by looking inward, sees less than a Jedi
does by looking out?"

"From a Jedi's point of view," Palpatine allowed. "Evil is a label
we all put on those who threaten us, isn't it? Yet the Sith and the
Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater
power."

"The Jedi's quest is for greater understanding," Anakin
countered. "For greater knowledge of the Force—"
"Which brings with it greater power, does it not?"

"Well... yes." Anakin had to laugh. "I should know better than to
argue with a politician."

"We're not arguing, Anakin. We're just talking." Palpatine
shifted his weight, settling in comfortably. "Perhaps the real difference
between the Jedi and the Sith lies only in their orientation;
a Jedi gains power through understanding, and a Sith gains
understanding through power. This is the true reason the Sith
have always been more powerful than the Jedi. The Jedi fear the
dark side so much they cut themselves off from the most important
aspect of life: passion. Of any kind. They don't even allow
themselves to love."

Except for me, Anakin thought. But then, I've never been exactly
the perfect Jedi.

"The Sith do not fear the dark side. The Sith have no fear.
They embrace the whole spectrum of experience, from the
heights of transcendent joy to the depths of hatred and despair.
Beings have these emotions for a reason, Anakin. That is why the
Sith are more powerful: they are not afraid to feel."

"The Sith rely on passion for strength," Anakin said, "but
when that passion runs dry, what's left?"

"Perhaps nothing. Perhaps a great deal. Perhaps it never runs
dry at all. Who can say?"

"The Jedi are selfless—we erase the self, to join with the flow
of the Force. We care only about others..."

Palpatine again gave him that smile of gentle wisdom. "Or so
you've been trained to believe. I hear the voice of Obi-Wan
Kenobi in your answers, Anakin. What do you really think?"

Anakin suddenly found the ballet a great deal more interesting
than Palpatine's face. "I... don't know anymore."

Interesting (obviously very unofficial lol) fan art. Apparently they think things are going to get turned on their head in Episode VIII.

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12510309_1194644160563560_901273188529989565_n.jpg?oh=f329d842d8f513780d39dd544b0a8894&oe=574308C3)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12418009_1194644257230217_9215379341032847047_n.jpg?oh=eb133166417b84b9a261f525e45a7be3&oe=570B67AF)

Rey does make a freaking hawt dark sider, just saying. lol. But I think I want her to stay good.

From my point of view, Ben/Kylo would be more suited as a stoic Jedi and Rey as the cunning and passionate Sith, now that I see this turning.

Quote from: Max Shreck on Mon, 11 Jan  2016, 10:10
From my point of view, Ben/Kylo would be more suited as a stoic Jedi and Rey as the cunning and passionate Sith, now that I see this turning.

How the hell did you come to that conclusion? lol

Quote from: Catwoman on Mon, 11 Jan  2016, 10:15

Quote from: Max Shreck on Mon, 11 Jan  2016, 10:10
From my point of view, Ben/Kylo would be more suited as a stoic Jedi and Rey as the cunning and passionate Sith, now that I see this turning.

How the hell did you come to that conclusion? lol

Rey in a Red setting looks much more like a Warrior than Benny ever could. And he looks serene enough to be a Jedi Monk with Green. lol

And, a new theory... Rey is actually Luke's daughter and thus Ben's cousin. And she will become more powerful than him and Snoke.

In ep. VI, Yoda told Luke: You will be the last Jedi. Pass on what you have learned. The Force is strong in your family.

And then he sensed Leia was his sister.

I simply see Rey being Luke's daughter, and Ben obviously Leia's son.

Luke and Leia take differing views on how to deal with Ben, and thus come into conflict with one another. Works for me.

Honestly, it's just been my head-cannon that Rey is Luke's daughter! XD

She even has a pet Droid - the mark of a Skywalker  :)

You just reminded me of this gem.... XD

https://youtu.be/pegJQPIzfs4

Patience, Killer Croc. my friend. I can sense that in time for Episode VIII the new Skywalker will seek you out. And when she does, you must bring her before me. She will grow powerful. Only together can we turn her to the dark side of the Force.  ;)

Hehehehe.... :D

All you silly boys talking about your hokey religions and superstitions and dark side and light side and I'm like, hellooo, I just made the Kessel Run in ten parsecs. *pops bubblegum*

Too bad Han won't be around anymore, though.

But I can say Harrison Ford was great in all the Star Wars movies he was in.

Quote from: Max Shreck on Wed, 13 Jan  2016, 04:31
Too bad Han won't be around anymore, though.

But I can say Harrison Ford was great in all the Star Wars movies he was in.

Be careful Max.  Some people might criticise you for not including a 'SPOILER'.  :-\

Nice try, genius. The movie's been out nearly a month, everyone (even those who haven't seen it) knows Han's fate by now. The one you posted was two days after it came out or something. Big difference.

Better luck next time.

Quote from: Max Shreck on Wed, 13 Jan  2016, 04:31
Too bad Han won't be around anymore, though.

Hopefully I did his memory proud. :(

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed, 13 Jan  2016, 18:06

Quote from: Max Shreck on Wed, 13 Jan  2016, 04:31
Too bad Han won't be around anymore, though.

Hopefully I did his memory proud. :(

You sure did.  ;)

Probably looked something like this.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldsfinestonline.com%2FWF%2Fbatman%2Fbtas%2Fbios%2Fharleyquinn%2F21.jpg&hash=d9e58dced109d20f4acfe449926a22549fb7b781)

"Weeeeeee! *smack chew pop smack chew pop*" And yes I'd be flying upside down probably. lol

SO far, TFA has a few characters to build upon,  Rey, Poe, Finn, Kylo Ren, Snoke, some say Phasma too, and Luke and Leia, as well as room for more. Up to the filmmakers to keep up the good work.

Gotta be honest with my fellow BMO'ers. Every day I grapple with the darkness. You're lucky this place is my escape from daily life.

And I am very pleased that I have friends here. And more...  :)

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed, 13 Jan  2016, 17:56
Nice try, genius. The movie's been out nearly a month, everyone (even those who haven't seen it) knows Han's fate by now. The one you posted was two days after it came out or something. Big difference.

Better luck next time.

Well, one might argue that my SPOILER was less of a big deal especially for anyone who'd looked at the cast-list before watching the film.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Wed, 13 Jan  2016, 22:14

Quote from: Catwoman on Wed, 13 Jan  2016, 17:56
Nice try, genius. The movie's been out nearly a month, everyone (even those who haven't seen it) knows Han's fate by now. The one you posted was two days after it came out or something. Big difference.

Better luck next time.

Well, one might argue that my SPOILER was less of a big deal especially for anyone who'd looked at the cast-list before watching the film.

That one can argue whatever he likes, the point is that when the whole mystery surrounding the leadup to the movie centers around Luke, you mentioning his appearance being brief constitutes a spoiler. No not a "Han dies" level spoiler but still a big one considering that was what everyone was talking about, "Where's Luke?" And then your dumbass comes along and says "oh he's here, but only briefly." But you're either too damn self-righteous or too damn stupid to comprehend the issue with that or with the other sh*t you do that drives everyone else up the damn wall, clearly. Or, more likely, a bit of both. You're almost too ignorant to be pompous but you still make the grade somehow.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 02:02
That one can argue whatever he likes, the point is that when the whole mystery surrounding the leadup to the movie centers around Luke, you mentioning his appearance being brief constitutes a spoiler. No not a "Han dies" level spoiler but still a big one considering that was what everyone was talking about, "Where's Luke?" And then your dumbass comes along and says "oh he's here, but only briefly." But you're either too damn self-righteous or too damn stupid to comprehend the issue with that or with the other sh*t you do that drives everyone else up the damn wall, clearly. Or, more likely, a bit of both. You're almost too ignorant to be pompous but you still make the grade somehow.

I've had a tough week.  I don't need your abuse.  On any other site you'd have been banned already for such unnecessarily personal comments.  I don't know why you haven't been yet.  You've used more than your nine lives.

Try to be civil with people please.  I am tempted to respond with an equally personal comment but I don't wish to be accused of double-standards or hypocrisy, even though I'm more than entitled to respond to a person who initiates abuse with abuse.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 02:36I'm more than entitled to respond to a person who initiates abuse with abuse.

I shall have to remember this.

By the by, this whole spoiler drama thing could be remedied easily enough if someone retitles this thread "Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (SPOILERS)".

QuoteI shall have to remember this.

NO ONE has the right to abuse anyone, but of course a person has the right to respond to nastiness with abuse.

I still don't think it's the best way of dealing with hostility.  I prefer it if calmer and cooler minds prevail, which is why I stated that I wasn't going to respond in kind to Catwoman (no doubt I'll bow be accused of pomposity again for making such a statement, but I guess I can't win whatever I do).

But whilst I still don't think fighting fire with fire is ever a good idea, I do think that it is, in principle, 'fair'.  Not 'right', 'correct' or 'sensible' but 'fair'.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 02:36

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 02:02
That one can argue whatever he likes, the point is that when the whole mystery surrounding the leadup to the movie centers around Luke, you mentioning his appearance being brief constitutes a spoiler. No not a "Han dies" level spoiler but still a big one considering that was what everyone was talking about, "Where's Luke?" And then your dumbass comes along and says "oh he's here, but only briefly." But you're either too damn self-righteous or too damn stupid to comprehend the issue with that or with the other sh*t you do that drives everyone else up the damn wall, clearly. Or, more likely, a bit of both. You're almost too ignorant to be pompous but you still make the grade somehow.

I've had a tough week.  I don't need your abuse.  On any other site you'd have been banned already for such unnecessarily personal comments.  I don't know why you haven't been yet.  You've used more than your nine lives.

Try to be civil with people please.  I am tempted to respond with an equally personal comment but I don't wish to be accused of double-standards or hypocrisy, even though I'm more than entitled to respond to a person who initiates abuse with abuse.

On any site with a moderator who had banned political discussion and was more in tune with American politics (can't be expected here given that Paul is Irish, which you have exploited nicely), your oh-so-unsubtle comments and attempts to bait other users (TDK, Colors, and myself especially) into more outright arguments so you can turn around and run to him and whine that rules are being broken and try to have us banned would have had your ass shipped out a long time ago. You should have at least been suspended for it.

And if you look around, I'm plenty nice and civil with just about everyone else. Thing is there is a lot of hostility here the last several months and the common denominator with that hostility is you.

Hope your week gets better. You're still an asshole.

Back on subject (and sorry to everyone else for that bit of deviation), has anyone else been following along with the "Where's Rey?" campaign about toys and stuff? Basically, everyone is complaining because there haven't been quite as many toys released of her outside of her standard action figures and stuff. The big thing is them keeping her out of the Monopoly game in favor of Finn (to go along with Luke, Vader, and Kylo Ren).

And I'm like, ok, I get it, but come on. If you put her in the game (which came out before the movie was released IIRC) you're spoiling one of the huge reveals of the movie which is her force sensitivity. Same with the action figure that has her with Luke's lightsaber. They had to freaking wait, people. But people are so impatient and just look for something to complain about. I mean, yes, I get it. If I was a lot younger I would want everything Rey I could get my hands on (instead I was more interested in trying to collect just the action figures of most of the main characters) or if I had a daughter I would have wanted to put a ton of Rey under the Christmas Tree, and there has definitely been a bit less of her compared to other characters. But a lot of that is out of necessity to preserve the plot. I'm amazed how so many people fail to grasp that.

And on top of that, she was already so popular even before the movie came out that what WAS out wasn't out long because it sold out. It took me forever (well relatively speaking lol) to find my Rey action figure and that was by complete accident. Dollar General has Star Wars toys? Who knew! :P

But alls well that ends well I guess, there are a ton of toys of her coming out in the next wave of stuff including a new Monopoly version that has her.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 09:57On any site with a moderator who had banned political discussion and was more in tune with American politics (can't be expected here given that Paul is Irish, which you have exploited nicely), your oh-so-unsubtle comments and attempts to bait other users (TDK, Colors, and myself especially) into more outright arguments so you can turn around and run to him and whine that rules are being broken and try to have us banned would have had your ass shipped out a long time ago. You should have at least been suspended for it.

And if you look around, I'm plenty nice and civil with just about everyone else. Thing is there is a lot of hostility here the last several months and the common denominator with that hostility is you.

Hope your week gets better. You're still an asshole.

What's the fact that Paul is Irish got to do with anything?  You're the one who has shamelessly brought it up as if it is material to anything.

And how dare you suggest that this site should pander to conservative Americans.  If you want a Batman site that does that, Batman on Film, run by Jett, already exists.  You and any other conservative Americans on this site are welcome to become members and regular contributors to that site.  Luckily this is an objective, non-political site, far less a conservative American one.  And since you've brought politics into the topic, bear in mind that the US has supported a liberal presidential candidate in the last two elections, and looks poised to make political history by giving a successive third term to another liberal in November (and God help the world, particularly minorities such as Mexicans and Muslims, along with most women, the mentally ill and the poor, if they don't).

If you can't accept a difference of opinion, that's your problem, but that does not excuse personal abuse and insults, something which I have not directed towards you (the worst you could accuse me of is calling your behaviour 'shameless' with respect to your irrelevant reference to Paul being Irish which is hardly on par with calling a person an 'asshole' or 'stupid', 'ignorant' and 'pompous' entirely unprovoked).

In any case, you have just basically admitted that you think I should be forced to leave this site simply because my political views do not correspond with yours and a couple of others (and whatever my political differences with say colors, at least he has been civil and polite, and certainly not resorted to nasty personal insults, the same for that matter can be said of TDK as much as he may despise many of my views).

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 17:50And how dare you suggest that this site should pander to conservative Americans.

This is an example of what's called "framing the argument". At no time did she say this site should do that. However, her other remarks are so accurate as to be convicting and so you seized upon a comment she made in passing rather than addressing her real point (ie, you provoke people and then hide behind a mod for protection).

And then...

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 17:50In any case, you have just basically admitted that you think I should be forced to leave this site simply because my political views do not correspond with yours and a couple of others (and whatever my political differences with say colors, at least he has been civil and polite, and certainly not resorted to nasty personal insults, the same for that matter can be said of TDK as much as he may despise many of my views).

This is mischaracterizing the argument. She didn't say you should be banned for having a different opinion. She said you have a history of provoking other members who have opinions with which you disagree and then trying to have a mod ban them... and were you to attempt that little stunt on some other forum, the mod would probably ban you just to simplify his own situation.

There's no need to deflect or mischaracterize in this discussion; sticking to the points will be good enough.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 10:06
Back on subject (and sorry to everyone else for that bit of deviation), has anyone else been following along with the "Where's Rey?" campaign about toys and stuff? Basically, everyone is complaining because there haven't been quite as many toys released of her outside of her standard action figures and stuff. The big thing is them keeping her out of the Monopoly game in favor of Finn (to go along with Luke, Vader, and Kylo Ren).

And I'm like, ok, I get it, but come on. If you put her in the game (which came out before the movie was released IIRC) you're spoiling one of the huge reveals of the movie which is her force sensitivity. Same with the action figure that has her with Luke's lightsaber. They had to freaking wait, people. But people are so impatient and just look for something to complain about. I mean, yes, I get it. If I was a lot younger I would want everything Rey I could get my hands on (instead I was more interested in trying to collect just the action figures of most of the main characters) or if I had a daughter I would have wanted to put a ton of Rey under the Christmas Tree, and there has definitely been a bit less of her compared to other characters. But a lot of that is out of necessity to preserve the plot. I'm amazed how so many people fail to grasp that.

And on top of that, she was already so popular even before the movie came out that what WAS out wasn't out long because it sold out. It took me forever (well relatively speaking lol) to find my Rey action figure and that was by complete accident. Dollar General has Star Wars toys? Who knew! :P

But alls well that ends well I guess, there are a ton of toys of her coming out in the next wave of stuff including a new Monopoly version that has her.

All of this is just my opinion obviously. I think bottom line, boys like playing with boy toys. It's just how it is. I believe a male youngster is going to pick up a Chewbacca or Han Solo figurine over a female one any day. The toy companies aren't going to say that, but it's how I see things. Young boys are going to be their biggest market.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 17:50

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 09:57On any site with a moderator who had banned political discussion and was more in tune with American politics (can't be expected here given that Paul is Irish, which you have exploited nicely), your oh-so-unsubtle comments and attempts to bait other users (TDK, Colors, and myself especially) into more outright arguments so you can turn around and run to him and whine that rules are being broken and try to have us banned would have had your ass shipped out a long time ago. You should have at least been suspended for it.

And if you look around, I'm plenty nice and civil with just about everyone else. Thing is there is a lot of hostility here the last several months and the common denominator with that hostility is you.

Hope your week gets better. You're still an asshole.

What's the fact that Paul is Irish got to do with anything?  You're the one who has shamelessly brought it up as if it is material to anything.

And how dare you suggest that this site should pander to conservative Americans.  If you want a Batman site that does that, Batman on Film, run by Jett, already exists.  You and any other conservative Americans on this site are welcome to become members and regular contributors to that site.  Luckily this is an objective, non-political site, far less a conservative American one.  And since you've brought politics into the topic, bear in mind that the US has supported a liberal presidential candidate in the last two elections, and looks poised to make political history by giving a successive third term to another liberal in November (and God help the world, particularly minorities such as Mexicans and Muslims, along with most women, the mentally ill and the poor, if they don't).

If you can't accept a difference of opinion, that's your problem, but that does not excuse personal abuse and insults, something which I have not directed towards you (the worst you could accuse me of is calling your behaviour 'shameless' with respect to your irrelevant reference to Paul being Irish which is hardly on par with calling a person an 'asshole' or 'stupid', 'ignorant' and 'pompous' entirely unprovoked).

In any case, you have just basically admitted that you think I should be forced to leave this site simply because my political views do not correspond with yours and a couple of others (and whatever my political differences with say colors, at least he has been civil and polite, and certainly not resorted to nasty personal insults, the same for that matter can be said of TDK as much as he may despise many of my views).

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftheficklegreybeast.squarespace.com%2Fstorage%2FYou_Have_Issues_Baby.jpeg%3F__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION%3D1383584366513&hash=8f2fb77127577313d052f27a981003dc867160d3)

Paul being Irish is relevant in that being Irish, he probably is not in tune with (and cannot give anything resembling a sh*t about) American politics so he would miss the little comments you've made (such as the neurosurgeon remark) that the rest of us immediately latch onto. In no way was I insulting him, just explaining why you seem to be able to keep getting away with this crap.

Where did I suggest that it should pander to anyone? All I said was that Paul made a rule, the rest of us are able to follow it but you continue to post stuff just trying to get a rise out of people. You should have to follow the same rule the rest of us do, yet you keep getting away with this crap.

Your opinion doesn't mean sh*t to me one way or the other at this point. You're irrelevant to me and I think most of the active users of this site at this point. The only reason what you say matters is that you went to Paul trying to get TDK and I banned for breaking that rule when we were discussing the merits of the man likely to be the next President of the United States because you got your little feelings hurt because you don't like that person, yet you turn around and continually make comments denigrating said person. To call you a hypocrite would be an insult to the good hypocrites of the world.

And I didn't admit anything of the sort, but you have proven time and time again your ability to take something a person says and try to twist it and turn it until you're the victim. This is nothing new coming from you. I said you should be banned or at least suspended for continuously trying to bait the rest of us. It has nothing to do which direction the bait goes.

Finally:

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/12548969_10153296865546700_3544011945901419453_n.jpg?oh=164379e70646cbcd18a8bd3087211031&oe=56FE64DD)

That's my mic-drop moment. I'm done with you. From now on I'll just resort to reporting every post you make where you try to bait us, and I urge the others to do the same.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 19:46

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 10:06
Back on subject (and sorry to everyone else for that bit of deviation), has anyone else been following along with the "Where's Rey?" campaign about toys and stuff? Basically, everyone is complaining because there haven't been quite as many toys released of her outside of her standard action figures and stuff. The big thing is them keeping her out of the Monopoly game in favor of Finn (to go along with Luke, Vader, and Kylo Ren).

And I'm like, ok, I get it, but come on. If you put her in the game (which came out before the movie was released IIRC) you're spoiling one of the huge reveals of the movie which is her force sensitivity. Same with the action figure that has her with Luke's lightsaber. They had to freaking wait, people. But people are so impatient and just look for something to complain about. I mean, yes, I get it. If I was a lot younger I would want everything Rey I could get my hands on (instead I was more interested in trying to collect just the action figures of most of the main characters) or if I had a daughter I would have wanted to put a ton of Rey under the Christmas Tree, and there has definitely been a bit less of her compared to other characters. But a lot of that is out of necessity to preserve the plot. I'm amazed how so many people fail to grasp that.

And on top of that, she was already so popular even before the movie came out that what WAS out wasn't out long because it sold out. It took me forever (well relatively speaking lol) to find my Rey action figure and that was by complete accident. Dollar General has Star Wars toys? Who knew! :P

But alls well that ends well I guess, there are a ton of toys of her coming out in the next wave of stuff including a new Monopoly version that has her.

All of this is just my opinion obviously. I think bottom line, boys like playing with boy toys. It's just how it is. I believe a male youngster is going to pick up a Chewbacca or Han Solo figurine over a female one any day. The toy companies aren't going to say that, but it's how I see things. Young boys are going to be their biggest market.

You're not wrong. You're pretty right, which is sad. Not that you're right (lol), I mean that girls aren't interested. I can't imagine life not having action figures and stuff in it. Yes I wanted dolls and stuffed animals but I wanted figures and toy cars and all that good stuff too. I think I had a very strong imagination because of it. I'm glad I enjoyed that stuff. You're right, if more girls did, we'd have more toys of our gender. And I will disagree a little that I do think boys would maybe enjoy having the girl around, if only to save her (uggg lol). But they're going to go for Han or Chewie first, you're right.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 19:42There's no need to deflect or mischaracterize in this discussion; sticking to the points will be good enough.

If Catwoman didn't want me to address those points I'm not sure why she brought them into the discussion.

As for the accusations, I have in the past argued with certain posters who have brought explicit politics into the forum.  For what it's worth, I don't care what political position various posters subscribe to, but if they're going to start making points that have a racist, homophobic or sexist edge to them I do object because this potentially alienates black/ethnic minority, gay/transgender and female posters among other minorities.  Since certain political candidates have been quite explicit in demonising various minority groups posts advocating these candidates have the same potential effect.  By all means bring up right-wing politics as much as you like, but be conscious of anything that advocates bigotry towards minorities some of whom may be members of this site, or may wish to become members of this site.

If I've come to blows over some posters here over these issues I make no apology.  I don't want to see this site become a 'no go' zone for minorities.  There are plenty of sites across the web, including some Batman fansites, where that type of bigotry is accepted.  I don't know Paul very well but I suspect he wouldn't want this site to be a 'no go' zone for minorities either, and that has nothing to do with him being Irish.

I'm pleased I don't matter to you Catwoman.  Good.   :)  That being the case, can you please not respond to my posts in future.

You asked me to do the same a while back and I respected that wish, so respect my wish.  And stop pming me to as you did a month or so back.

I want nothing to do with you, and I thought you felt the same way about me, so stop frigging answering my posts.

And nice try with the Bill Clinton baiting.  But the funny thing is, I don't like Bill Clinton either; never have.  Lucky thing is, he's not running for the Presidency this year, but another sexist sleazeball with various allegations of sexual assault to his name is... :-X  And before you say it, Hillary is not her husband's keeper, and most people who support women's rights don't hold women responsible for piggish men.

In that case, hi.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 19:42There's no need to deflect or mischaracterize in this discussion; sticking to the points will be good enough.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 20:06If Catwoman didn't want me to address those points I'm not sure why she brought them into the discussion.

Are you a sociopath or something? This isn't about her, it's about you. You DIDN'T address her points. You made up imaginary arguments and then "refuted" those.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 20:06As for the accusations, I have in the past argued with certain posters who have brought explicit politics into the forum.

And when you started losing the argument (as was inevitable), you went crying to Paul about it.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 20:06but if they're going to start making points that have a racist, homophobic or sexist edge

Imagine the world's smallest violin playing right now.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 20:06Since certain political candidates have been quite explicit in demonising various minority groups posts advocating these candidates have the same potential effect.  By all means bring up right-wing politics as much as you like, but be conscious of anything that advocates bigotry towards minorities some of whom may be members of this site, or may wish to become members of this site.

Generally I've avoided politics on this forum, partly because you can be depended upon to throw a tantrum when, GASP!, not everybody thinks the way you do. This truth doesn't keep me up at night but I've never seen it fail to set you off the deep end.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 20:06If I've come to blows over some posters here over these issues I make no apology.

Why should you? You got the selective, one-sided moderating you wanted. Victors don't apologize.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 20:06I don't want to see this site become a 'no go' zone for minorities.

What you want is for this site to be a no-go zone for anybody who doesn't agree with you.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 20:06I don't know Paul very well but I suspect he wouldn't want this site to be a 'no go' zone for minorities either, and that has nothing to do with him being Irish.

You still don't get it. It was didactically explained for you. Catwoman did everything short of using pictures. And you still don't get it. I mean, that's... wow...

LMAO!

https://youtu.be/FaOSCASqLsE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tKZlCi-WnQ

I'm teetering dangerously close to starting to adore this guy...

Quote from: Catwoman on Sun, 17 Jan  2016, 12:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tKZlCi-WnQ

I'm teetering dangerously close to starting to adore this guy...

Hopefully they'll give him more to do in Episode 8.

Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 15 Jan  2016, 02:02And then your dumbass comes along and says "oh he's here, but only briefly." But you're either too damn self-righteous or too damn stupid to comprehend the issue with that or with the other sh*t you do that drives everyone else up the damn wall, clearly. Or, more likely, a bit of both. You're almost too ignorant to be pompous but you still make the grade somehow.

I want to say that insulting still isn't necessary with this and that you're both not seeming to come out of this looking very good. Please we can all try to be better than this.

God bless you all! God bless everyone!

Quote from: Max Shreck on Sun, 17 Jan  2016, 14:03

Quote from: Catwoman on Sun, 17 Jan  2016, 12:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tKZlCi-WnQ

I'm teetering dangerously close to starting to adore this guy...

Hopefully they'll give him more to do in Episode 8.

I think he will be back with a vengeance in Epi VIII. More than the First Order striking back I think it's going to be Kylo striking back. I bet General Opie Taylor ends up on the wrong end of that lightsaber for running his mouth a little too much.

I agree !  ;)

Quote from: Catwoman on Sun, 17 Jan  2016, 18:01

Quote from: Max Shreck on Sun, 17 Jan  2016, 14:03

Quote from: Catwoman on Sun, 17 Jan  2016, 12:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tKZlCi-WnQ

I'm teetering dangerously close to starting to adore this guy...

Hopefully they'll give him more to do in Episode 8.

I think he will be back with a vengeance in Epi VIII. More than the First Order striking back I think it's going to be Kylo striking back. I bet General Opie Taylor ends up on the wrong end of that lightsaber for running his mouth a little too much.

I think Kylo will be seeking to assert his authority and place in the First Order, but with mental challenges. He thought killing Han would make him stronger, but in the novel, it's said he feels weaker and stunned at his action. He largely did the deed because Snoke challenged him to. That Vader failed because he couldn't kill his son, and Kylo needs to correct this by killing his father. Meaning there are no obstacles in his way and the darkness can fully be embraced. I personally think this is all quite brilliant. In some ways I think Kylo is what Anakin should have been in the prequel era. Conveying that messed up, conflicted headspace. Someone who wants to be dark but really, it's just not for them. But they force it upon themselves anyway.

I've thought the same regarding Anakin and Ren, TDK. In the prequels, Anakin to me felt like someone who was definitely not selfish or had a real tendency for violence, but who was very emotional, something that the Jedi sought to control, and while I enjoyed RotS I still don't buy that he turned into THE Darth Vader from the original movies from the young, impulsive and in love Anakin Skywalker who decided he had enough of following the rules and wanted to gain all the power.

If anything, Padme' dead should've made him realise what he'd done and that he really made the wrong decision in abandoning the Jedi, and not make him go full dark.

Lucas tried to tell an ambitious story in those films centered on him but it didn't quite work.

Back to Kylo Ren, I certainly didn't expect the next "bad guy" in SW to do what he did, but looking at the big picture they can do great things with him in the next movie. He was not Vader or Sidious, but that was just the point. He's a different kind of villain.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 17 Jan  2016, 19:59In some ways I think Kylo is what Anakin should have been in the prequel era. Conveying that messed up, conflicted headspace. Someone who wants to be dark but really, it's just not for them. But they force it upon themselves anyway.

Quote from: Max Shreck on Sun, 17 Jan  2016, 20:56I've thought the same regarding Anakin and Ren, TDK. In the prequels, Anakin to me felt like someone who was definitely not selfish or had a real tendency for violence, but who was very emotional, something that the Jedi sought to control, and while I enjoyed RotS I still don't buy that he turned into THE Darth Vader from the original movies from the young, impulsive and in love Anakin Skywalker who decided he had enough of following the rules and wanted to gain all the power.

If anything, Padme' dead should've made him realise what he'd done and that he really made the wrong decision in abandoning the Jedi, and not make him go full dark.

Lucas tried to tell an ambitious story in those films centered on him but it didn't quite work.

Anakin specifically became selfish. He became who, because of his emotions, could be violent. Why should have Padme's death made him realize he made the wrong decision. Anakin was exclusively someone by the end of ROTS who wanted justify his bad actions to himself. The whole idea, as it seems, of Anakin is that he makes compromises in what he knows is right to get what he wants. At the end of the day, after everything he's done, Anakin would stand there and justify everything he did to himself. The attitude of self-loathing because of those actions, but justifying himself is basically the attitude that is Vader, not  Kylo Ren's, "I want to be evil, but it bothers me kinda, at times."

God bless you both! God bless everyone!

I suppose it's there Dagenspear, but it all happened too quickly for that to convince me. First Anakin wanted to keep Padme' from dying, then after he helped the Emperor kill Mace Windu, he was happily murdering people around and talking about how he'll rule the Empire and how all who are not with him are his enemies, while after he was defeated by Obi Wan he remained Sidious' apprentice...

I think his turn to the Dark Side happened with a lot of fanfare and in a flash and to me it was not consistent with his character up to that point that he would become like that and even hate Padme' and Kenobi.

In conclusion, it was not great character development to me, and they did much better with Darth Vader in the original films where all we knew was that he was the one who killed Luke's father and then it was revealed he was the same person who turned to the Dark Side.

God bless you too!

Quote from: Max Shreck on Mon, 18 Jan  2016, 04:21I suppose it's there Dagenspear, but it all happened too quickly for that to convince me. First Anakin wanted to keep Padme' from dying, then after he helped the Emperor kill Mace Windu, he was happily murdering people around and talking about how he'll rule the Empire and how all who are not with him are his enemies, while after he was defeated by Obi Wan he remained Sidious' apprentice...

I'll be the first to say that the end result was kinda rushed. But he wasn't shown to be happy about anything he's doing. Only when he's confronted by Padme does he start to really double down and justify his actions to himself and her and also, and this is the part that I think is rushed, where he starts to get a power high.

QuoteI think his turn to the Dark Side happened with a lot of fanfare and in a flash and to me it was not consistent with his character up to that point that he would become like that and even hate Padme' and Kenobi.

He didn't hate Padme or even Obi-Wan really. He even kinda offered Obi-Wan the opportunity to be on his side. But Obi-Wan rightfully rejected it. Anakin was before that to desire power, to want more acclaim, to want more. Really, if you think about it Anakin's vow to never let himself lose someone again is more about his powerlessness than wanting to save someone he loves.

QuoteIn conclusion, it was not great character development to me, and they did much better with Darth Vader in the original films where all we knew was that he was the one who killed Luke's father and then it was revealed he was the same person who turned to the Dark Side.

God bless you too!

They kinda had to, by the prequels very nature, show more about Anakin than the original trilogy. Thank you very much!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

I agree with your point about his powerlessness and him justifying himself, but Anakin didn't really offer Obi-Wan a chance, he told him he wanted to become Emperor and that he'd better not stand in his way. The duel between the two former friends was very convincing though.

And it was still senseless to me how he wanted to Force-choke Padme' in a matter of minutes after telling her that he doesn't want to lose her.

You're right that they had to show more of Anakin, of course, but it could've been handled a little bit better. :)

Quote from: Max Shreck on Mon, 18 Jan  2016, 06:43
I agree with your point about his powerlessness and him justifying himself, but Anakin didn't really offer Obi-Wan a chance, he told him he wanted to become Emperor and that he'd better not stand in his way. The duel between the two former friends was very convincing though.

I think to Anakin, saying, "I you're not with me, then you're my enemy." is his way of offering Obi-Wan to join him. But that might just be my interpretation.

QuoteAnd it was still senseless to me how he wanted to Force-choke Padme' in a matter of minutes after telling her that he doesn't want to lose her.

That's what happens when you're not so much concerned for those you love, but the idea that you're going to lose them. Yoda lays it out pretty well in the scene with Anakin: "Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is." Anakin's attachment to Padme has stopped being about being about his caring for her and more about his greed desire for her, his greed for her in a sense. Thank you for the polite responses! Sometimes prequel defenders can get some harsh reactions from some.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Just to be sure, I don't hate the prequels, but Anakin was their main character, and his turn to the Dark Side was not handled as great as it should have been in my opinion. Not a major problem for me, but if I have one complaint about them, it's this one.

Thank you for your replies. :)

You're right about all that, Dagen, in the context of what we're given.

Anakin justified all his atrocities in the name of Padme, buying Palpatine's lie that only after he has become powerful in the dark side, will he be able to save her from death. He was absolutely selfish, and I think that's the part I have difficulty buying. In the Clone Wars animated series they touch on Anakin's temper issues, and we see Anakin killing the Tuskens in AOTC.

That's all fine, but it still doesn't properly show a descent into evil for my liking.

From cutting Mace Windu's hand off, to storming the Jedi Temple and killing everyone. He surely knows what he's doing is wrong, but does it anyway. Sure, he loves Padme, but he also loves Obi-Wan, and even if he had disputes with the Jedi, they nonetheless were family. Lucas tried to make Anakin a tragic hero but it didn't work out exactly how I would've wanted. It's just a little too flimsy and abrupt even if they show scattered incidents of temper issues beforehand.

So I'd propose a more believable plot on behalf of Palpatine (and for the audience) to convey that the Jedi really are evil and must be taken down. That they indeed have betrayed Anakin personally, and propose a threat to the Galaxy in some way. Some bigger revelation scene where he 'lifts the lid' on what they're up to. In the film it's purely circumstantial that Anakin walks in on the attempted arrest of Palpatine.

Sure, the Padme plot could remain. But in the film it's just that Anakin killed a bunch of people and now his vision of reality is distorted by the dark side. It's all about the moment someone consciously *decides* to make an important life decision. Truly believing the Jedi are evil and must be stopped, with your good old buddy Obi-Wan leading the charge, makes it better in my opinion. You don't think you're being exploited or tricked, and you're not exclusively a blind, lovesick puppy. And that way you're going to embrace the dark side with more conviction.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 19 Jan  2016, 04:42
You're right about all that, Dagen, in the context of what we're given.

Anakin justified all his atrocities in the name of Padme, buying Palpatine's lie that only after he has become powerful in the dark side, will he be able to save her from death. He was absolutely selfish, and I think that's the part I have difficulty buying. In the Clone Wars animated series they touch on Anakin's temper issues, and we see Anakin killing the Tuskens in AOTC.

That's all fine, but it still doesn't properly show a descent into evil for my liking.

From cutting Mace Windu's hand off, to storming the Jedi Temple and killing everyone. He surely knows what he's doing is wrong, but does it anyway. Sure, he loves Padme, but he also loves Obi-Wan, and even if he had disputes with the Jedi, they nonetheless were family. Lucas tried to make Anakin a tragic hero but it didn't work out exactly how I would've wanted. It's just a little too flimsy and abrupt even if they show scattered incidents of temper issues beforehand.

The point of the jedi as they are is to be separate from attachments. They don't do family. Anakin may be like a brother to Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan doesn't have the attachment that Anakin could have, which causes a disconnect in their relationship. If placed in the same situation as Obi-Wan I don't see Anakin putting the future of the galaxy above those he cares for. It's not so much about who he loves for Anakin, but his powerlessness. His love for Obi-Wan isn't as important for him as his attachment to Padme. Also, you have the feeling of betrayal Anakin perceived from Obi-Wan, not just with the idea that Padme was with him, but also that he was willing to kill him. I don't think there was a tragic hero aspect, so much as a villain with tragic intentions. As the movie displays it, it's not just about, it's not just about his anger. The killing of the tuskens isn't the only point where he starts either, but also with Dooku and with his desire for power, for acclaim and then the ability to save Padme.

QuoteSo I'd propose a more believable plot on behalf of Palpatine (and for the audience) to convey that the Jedi really are evil and must be taken down. That they indeed have betrayed Anakin personally, and propose a threat to the Galaxy in some way. Some bigger revelation scene where he 'lifts the lid' on what they're up to. In the film it's purely circumstantial that Anakin walks in on the attempted arrest of Palpatine.

Sure, the Padme plot could remain. But in the film it's just that Anakin killed a bunch of people and now his vision of reality is distorted by the dark side. It's all about the moment someone consciously *decides* to make an important life decision. Truly believing the Jedi are evil and must be stopped, with your good old buddy Obi-Wan leading the charge, makes it better in my opinion. You don't think you're being exploited or tricked, and you're not exclusively a blind, lovesick puppy. And that way you're going to embrace the dark side with more conviction.

That takes away from Anakin's villainy for me. He becomes a villain. Not anti-hero or a villain who kills other villains. His actions are selfish, not altruistic in some way or misguided way. I wouldn't call it circumstantial, but I would call it orchestrated by Palpatine.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

http://www.buzzfeed.com/krishrach/mew-the-force-be-with-you?bffb&utm_term=.wyQZVE5zk#.av6YMA5pd

Hahahahaha

And the cat really does look like him!

@Dagenspear, I'll respond to your post in due time. Bit tied up at the moment...

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 19 Jan  2016, 18:01
@Dagenspear, I'll respond to your post in due time. Bit tied up at the moment...

You should have told me you had obligations, damnit. Can't bind and gag anyone these days. Ugh.

Quote from: Catwoman on Tue, 19 Jan  2016, 18:22

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 19 Jan  2016, 18:01
@Dagenspear, I'll respond to your post in due time. Bit tied up at the moment...

You should have told me you had obligations, damnit. Can't bind and gag anyone these days. Ugh.

Sorry. I'll have to book another session...er, appointment later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=PTAJWrTf_Hw

The title of that video gives me mental images of baby Kylo Ren.

And constantly adult Kylo Ren.

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 20 Jan  2016, 15:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=PTAJWrTf_Hw

The title of that video gives me mental images of baby Kylo Ren.

And constantly adult Kylo Ren.

How freaking adorable.

Except the fact the little brat is going to grow up to be Darth Vader lol.

Son of a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITCH!

http://mashable.com/2016/01/20/star-wars-episode-viii-release-date/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link#jG6CBxAefiqr

Guess December is Star Wars month now. Was last year for sure, and atleast for the next couple of years too.  ;)

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 21 Jan  2016, 23:49

Guess December is Star Wars month now. Was last year for sure, and atleast for the next couple of years too.  ;)

Good. For some reason, I start to enjoy going to the movies in December.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AZlKwE5H-U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AZlKwE5H-U)

Excellent...  ;D

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/27/1f/10/271f101fd4c3194fbbc1b7eebccfcecb.jpg)

Behind the scenes! (from the SNL thing lol)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ3mGQAFS6I

(https://scontent.fotp3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/946129_10153841164976730_7392639246508778260_n.jpg?oh=42c26723bac26ab3aefc3d0644fbaa31&oe=573B9DB4)

Princess Shando looks good.   :P

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 21 Jan  2016, 23:49

Guess December is Star Wars month now. Was last year for sure, and atleast for the next couple of years too.  ;)

Yeah. Bit of a shame, but we have Rogue One this year as well. I'm really looking forward to that.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 27 Jan  2016, 22:05
Yeah. Bit of a shame, but we have Rogue One this year as well. I'm really looking forward to that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMyCa35_mOg

:D

(https://scontent.fotp3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12642508_952738854819748_416774266033681835_n.jpg?oh=dea29778d971d9d34e6d00de80f15823&oe=57423094)

How long before someone makes a meme for that set to "The Banana Boat Song?" Better known as "Day-O!"

lol

Quote from: Catwoman on Sat, 30 Jan  2016, 18:35
How long before someone makes a meme for that set to "The Banana Boat Song?" Better known as "Day-O!"

lol

;D

I think Kylo Ren is my favourite character in the franchise.

I can relate to his longing for greatness. He wants more from life. He doesn't want the mundane. He's a man who wears his heart on his sleeve and has frustrations and fears like the rest of us. When he's angry, he's not a cool customer like Vader. He's going to trash his room like a little kid. Who doesn't feel like lashing out like that when they're frustrated? But of course, we can't. We have to control ourselves. Kylo doesn't.

I think people these days are sick and tired of being told off and being told what to do. They are sick of being micromanaged. We are also sick of failure, holding our tongue and being let down time and time again. Kylo wants to be his own man, operating within the First Order system, but as an outsider. But Kylo isn't a happy person. He's conflicted and goes through a variety of emotions. In a way Kylo is playing the role of a bad guy, because that's what he wants to be.

He's a good person driven to darkness. I'd say that's a reflection of society at the moment. People want to reclaim a sense of power and control. They realise darker methods may be necessary to empower themselves, and more importantly, unchain themselves. Kylo thinks greatness is his birthright, but nonetheless, he's someone who is frustrated, messed up and longing for something greater. He's anti-establishment and making his mark individually.

I know a lot of people here don't have time for TDK trilogy or Nolan's pseudo-philosophising in general, let alone the character of Rachel Dawes, but in response to some of your comments about Kylo Ren being a 'good person driven to darkness' all I'll say is the following:

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimoviequotes.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F11%2F1-Batman-Begins-quotes.gif&hash=e98669b71e69b702a200c8bcc95d9ea741c0a199)

I didn't have problems with Kylo Ren's character in the film, I'm looking forward to seeing more of him. as he will complete his training under Snoke and perphaps face Rey again. And I hope Leia will have the chance to confront her son.

The way he turned against the Jedi sounds a lot like Anakin's path to becoming Darth Vader, and even so, Ben was shown to be struggling in his attempt to fullly embrace the Dark Side...and we all know how he eventually did that, killing his father.

Did anyone else pick up the Blu-ray last week? I did, and while I loved seeing the film again (I saw it 3 times on the cinema) and watching all the special features, I'm a bit miffed they didn't include the deleted scene between Han and the stormtroopers. Everyone's saying that's the best one of all, but it isn't on the Blu-ray. >:( Nor are there any commentaries.

I know Lucasfilm has a history of issuing incomplete home releases of the Star Wars films so we have to buy them again  when they're reissued later on (I own 5 different copies of A New Hope), but I was hoping we'd be past all that following the Disney merger.

I did. I picked up the Target exclusive version. It's a bit on the slim side, but I just liked all the different character posters merged into one cover art. Wish there would have been a Abrams commentary, so that's kinda disappointing, but like you said, there will probably, if Lucasfilm/Star Wars pattern continues, be another release somewhere down the line with more features to further entice the faithful fanbase....  :-\

And when they do, I'll probably buy it all over again. :-[

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 26 Apr  2016, 22:09
And when they do, I'll probably buy it all over again. :-[

*raises hand*

Guilty.  :-[  ;)

I finally saw this movie over a month ago.

I don't call myself the biggest Star Wars fan out there (I do like the original trilogy as most people do, but I guess I only like The Phantom Menace out of the prequels), but I thought The Force Awakens was enjoyable. My only complaint is Han Solo's death felt rushed and forgotten quickly, similar to Quicksilver's demise in Avengers: Age of Ultron, but all in all, it was a fun popcorn movie. Whether Rey is a "Mary Sue" character or not, I honestly don't care. I saw her as a female equivalent to Luke Skywalker, and from what I can remember, he didn't exactly have that many flaws either, unless maybe if you argue he rushed his training to fight Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes Back (forgive me if I'm wrong though, I haven't seen it in a long time).

I found this rebuttal aimed specifically at Chronicle writer Max Landis, who trash talked the film and accused Rey for being a Mary Sue.

Quote

'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' Doesn't Have a "Mary Sue" Problem – Its Critics Do

By Jason Bailey | December 21, 2015

Star Wars: The Force Awakens is, by just about any yardstick, a giant success: record-breaking opening weekend, enthusiastic fan response, rapturous critical reception, faith in franchise restored. Yessiree bob, you'd have to hunt high and low to find much of anything to complain about with this one, I can't imagine you coul – what's that? Some dudes on the Internet are mad that Rey, the new protagonist played with charm and pizzazz by Daisy Ridley, is so capable, skilled, and talented? Huh. Imagine that.

Unsurprisingly, the mouthpiece for these mouth-breathers is one Max Landis, the screenwriter of American Ultra and Victor Frankenstein whose Twitter feed prompts the Superman-paraphrasing tagline "You'll believe a turd can type." On December 18, release date for The Force Awakens, he tweeted:

they finally did it they made a fan fic movie with a Mary Sue as the main character pic.twitter.com/gwO5PatXYc
— Max Landis (@Uptomyknees) December 19, 2015

Three hours later, he followed up his original missive with the irrefutable back-up of an anonymous internet commenter:

Star Wars: The Mary Sue Awakens *spoiler* pic.twitter.com/Ov54eHcsNf
— Max Landis (@Uptomyknees) December 19, 2015

If you're lucky enough not to know – and seriously, kudos – "Mary Sue" is a phrase with roots in fan fiction, describing a female character who's basically flawless. The Mary Sue (which is often presumed to be some sort of author avatar/wish fulfillment) can do everything well; she's remarkably gifted, usually attractive, and saves the day. And you could, I supposed, apply that label to Rey, the female scavenger who proves herself adept at piloting the Millennium Falcon, wielding a spear and lightsaber, and kicking ass. I mean, you'd have to be a raging asshole, but you could do it.

Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker in "Star Wars"

The fundamental flaw in Landis' argument – and, frankly, in much of the conversation around this particular trope – is the overwhelming number of male characters in the pop culture sphere who exhibit the same traits, with relatively little pushback. "We wouldn't be worrying about Rey's excessive coolness if she were Ray, standard-issue white male hero with all the skills and all the luck," notes Tasha Robinson at The Verge, and she's right; sure, you'll hear the occasional "Gary Stu" grouse, but rarely with the same volume and viciousness. I'm chasing down the corridors of my memory to recall anyone sneering that Jason Bourne or James Bond were just too good at sh*t. "Yes, but they were trained," goes the counter-argument; true enough, but it also seems fair to assume they came into that training with a natural gift. You know who else did? Luke and Anakin Skywalker. As Carly Lane writes over at (hey, look at that) The Mary Sue, "Was there the same amount of agonizing over a young slave from Tatooine who was equally proficient in constructing a protocol droid from spare parts as well as building and flying his own podracer – all at the mere age of nine? Or when his offspring, who possessed little to no X-wing flight training, managed to take down a moon-sized space station with one shot guided by his use of the Force?"

Of course not. And Landis' response to that argument (of Luke, he eloquently insists, "He was a whiney, ineffectual bitch who sucked at almost everything except piloting") doesn't hold water; we're not talking about personality, but skills. And seeing's how (LIGHT SPOILER) Rey is revealed as a Jedi-in-waiting, the Force being strong with her and all that, it's not exactly a stretch to grant her a natural ability and solid mechanical gift or two. (END LIGHT SPOILER)

And as long as we're discussing the Star Wars universe: what kind of a rancid garbage person watches one of these movies and decides this the improbable thing we're going to raise a f***ing ruckus about? Ah yes, walking carpet being who communicates in roars, sure, makes sense; space stations that can destroy entire planets, got it; tiny sentient teddy bears who sing, absolutely; WAIT HOLD ON THAT GIRL IS TOO GOOD AT TOO MANY THINGS I'M NOT BUYING IT.

Is Rey a perfect character? Of course not, but c'mon people, this is a series borne out of Buck Rogers serials; we're not exactly looking for gritty antiheroes. If there's a complaint to be made about The Force Awakens and the gender of its new hero, it's that by the end, the frequent references to it (I'm specifically thinking of Han Solo's "Girl knows her stuff") feel a bit patronizing.

Then again, considering the resistance that burbles up in the ugliest, stupidest corners of the Internet anytime a beloved property gives us a hero who isn't flipped to the default white-male setting – witness the gross racist furor surrounding the reveal of John Boyega when the first Force Awakens trailers hit, or the current hullabaloo over the casting of a black actor as Hermoine Grainger – maybe a little bit of explicit head-patting isn't a bad idea. After all, Landis's complaints don't put him too far from the knuckle-draggers at Breitbart ("Is it my age speaking when I say why even bother to create female characters who are only going to dress and act like men?" writes John Nolte, while longingly caressing his Slave Leia doll), and that is what should give him a stroke. That, and the grosses for American Ultra and Victor Frankenstein, ZING.

Is Rey too good to be true? Maybe. And so are countless other protagonists in comic book, fantasy, action, and sci-fi cinema. That's part of what we're there for; in genre movies, particularly as a young viewer, the true joy comes from seeing these protagonists as heroes who can quite literally do anything, and who we can thus imagine ourselves as. And the joy of the original Star Wars is the universal notion of discovering something magical within oneself, of realizing one's gift and manifesting it. In Star Wars, that happened to a young man, and in this film, it happens to a young woman. Maybe the neckbeards and schmucks and hack screenwriters are upset about it, but y'know what? My daughter is two years old, and these are the movies she and her friends and the rest of her generation are gonna grow up on. I keep thinking about that, and I can't stop smiling about it.

Source: http://flavorwire.com/552857/star-wars-the-force-awakens-doesnt-have-a-mary-sue-problem-its-critics-do

I don't share this author's stance against people who were genuinely unconvinced by Rey as a character, but I am glad Max Landis was singled out for his trash talking on Twitter. That guy likes to trash other people's work, but he seems pretty thin skinned when others criticise his stuff e.g. dismissing Red Letter Media's critique of one of his films because they liked The Hobbit, implying they have no credibility. He's in no position to judge anything harshly if he doesn't have the maturity to cope with scrutiny himself. That being said, I've heard some good things about his Superman: American Alien mini-series. Hopefully I'll get the chance to read it and find out if it lives up to the hype.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 23 May  2016, 11:23
I finally saw this movie over a month ago.

I don't call myself the biggest Star Wars fan out there (I do like the original trilogy as most people do, but I guess I only like The Phantom Menace out of the prequels), but I thought The Force Awakens was enjoyable. My only complaint is Han Solo's death felt rushed and forgotten quickly, similar to Quicksilver's demise in Avengers: Age of Ultron, but all in all, it was a fun popcorn movie. Whether Rey is a "Mary Sue" character or not, I honestly don't care. I saw her as a female equivalent to Luke Skywalker, and from what I can remember, he didn't exactly have that many flaws either, unless maybe if you argue he rushed his training to fight Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes Back (forgive me if I'm wrong though, I haven't seen it in a long time).

Luke was pretty whiny in ANH. Not to mention, Luke wasn't easily capable of many force abilities with no kind of training, like Rey was. That's the difference for some.

QuoteI found this rebuttal aimed specifically at Chronicle writer Max Landis, who trash talked the film and accused Rey for being a Mary Sue.

Source: http://flavorwire.com/552857/star-wars-the-force-awakens-doesnt-have-a-mary-sue-problem-its-critics-do

I don't share this author's stance against people who were genuinely unconvinced by Rey as a character, but I am glad Max Landis was singled out for his trash talking on Twitter. That guy likes to trash other people's work, but he seems pretty thin skinned when others criticise his stuff e.g. dismissing Red Letter Media's critique of one of his films because they liked The Hobbit, implying they have no credibility. He's in no position to judge anything harshly if he doesn't have the maturity to cope with scrutiny himself. That being said, I've heard some good things about his Superman: American Alien mini-series. Hopefully I'll get the chance to read it and find out if it lives up to the hype.

You have no room to make judgements on that issue. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

I quite like the idea Rey is the chosen one, rebooted. That the power of Anakin has passed onto another person in the galaxy. It would be ironic for Luke to train such a person, given his father's fate. Rey's abilities in TFA don't have to be explained away, but I think that scenario would play out fine.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 24 May  2016, 04:32
I quite like the idea Rey is the chosen one, rebooted. That the power of Anakin has passed onto another person in the galaxy. It would be ironic for Luke to train such a person, given his father's fate. Rey's abilities in TFA don't have to be explained away, but I think that scenario would play out fine.

I really hope those rumours aren't true. It would ruin the singularity of the Chosen One if the prophecy was cyclical. I don't want Rey to be a member of the Skywalker family either. That plot twist has already been overplayed. I'd prefer it if she was just an original protagonist who could stand on her own, without being a reincarnation or secret relative of any previous characters.

At the same time though, they do need to explain why she was so overpowered in The Force Awakens. There's a difference between displaying innate Jedi traits (fast reflexes, empathy, passive visions) and fully mastered Jedi skills (expert swordsmanship, Force persuasion, telekinesis). Rey clearly displayed the latter, and there has to be an explanation for this. Otherwise it's just sloppy writing.

My guess is she's one of Luke's former students. It's possible he implanted a false memory in her mind to keep her out of harm's way so the Knights of Ren wouldn't recruit/kill her. By making Rey think her family would return, he'd give her a compelling reason to stay on Jakku of her own volition. And if that's indeed the case, then her true back story should be revealed in Episode VIII.

On a related note, some fans have pointed out similarities between Rey and Bastila from Knights of the Old Republic.


If the filmmakers were taking cues from the KOTOR games (and the similarities between Darth Revan's costume and Kylo Ren's would suggest they are), then Rey might be a former Knight of Ren that Luke captured and brainwashed. Jedi aren't meant to kill prisoners, and in KOTOR the Jedi Council was shown to erase a captive's mind and give them a new memory as a rehabilitative alternative to execution. Perhaps that's what happened to Rey.

If she must be related to an older character, I'd rather she was connected to the Palpatine or Kenobi bloodlines than the Skywalkers.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 25 May  2016, 20:58
the Jedi Council was shown to erase a captive's mind and give them a new memory as a rehabilitative alternative to execution.

What about a replacement limb for the one they lob off since that seems to be their preferred method of subduing someone

I believe prosthetics are covered by Jedi health insurance, unless the dismembered body part happens to be a head. In which case it's rather more difficult to replace.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 25 May  2016, 22:46
I believe prosthetics are covered by Jedi health insurance, unless the dismembered body part happens to be a head. In which case it's rather more difficult to replace.

No wonder Boba was so pissed about what happened to Jango.

Mace only removed Jango's head so he wouldn't keep bumping it against the door on Slave 1.


A habit that was regrettably inherited by the stormtroopers. 

No good deed goes unpunished.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 25 May  2016, 23:18
Mace only removed Jango's head so he wouldn't keep bumping it against the door on Slave 1.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com%2F65%2F50%2Fcbe68f60b71bc0519288d6008693101c.gif&hash=82990bc5948b00ce3933196c496cafec0f4bf434)

A habit that was regrettably inherited by the stormtroopers. 

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhaerdekel.hu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2Ffilmes-bakik-05.gif&hash=fa0e6e887ef7bada1dbd1d58588768e98a5f3e77)

Am I right to assume the Stormtroopers weren't all clones by this stage?  If they had been, surely they'd be all the same height and thus genetically designed not to bang their heads on the Death Star hatches.

I always hated the idea of the OT stormtroopers being clones, so I'm with you on that point. IIRC there was a plot point in the videogame Battlefront II where there's an anti-Imperial clone uprising on Kamino. This serves as a wakeup call to the Emperor, illustrating the clones' susceptibility to corruption and reprogramming. So the Empire decides to start enlisting ordinary recruits into their ranks. By time the OT comes around, the majority of stormtroopers are no longer clones. Though there probably were one or two surviving clone troopers in Vader's 501st legion – hence the one guy who bangs his head on the door.

One change I actually approve of in the special editions is the addition of a sound effect to punctuate the goof.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 24 May  2016, 04:32
I quite like the idea Rey is the chosen one, rebooted. That the power of Anakin has passed onto another person in the galaxy. It would be ironic for Luke to train such a person, given his father's fate. Rey's abilities in TFA don't have to be explained away, but I think that scenario would play out fine.

I've heard complaints from people that this is rehashing Luke's journey to become another Jedi. But even so, is it really a bad thing? It's quite fitting since it's passing the torch to the next generation.

I couldn't help but notice this list from seven actors who hated being in Star Wars, not only Harrison Ford. It's quite depressing to read. It only makes it important to how fans personally feel about the material, regardless if the actors feel it is beneath them.

Source: http://benfalkyahoomovies.tumblr.com/post/123362809754/7-actors-who-really-hated-being-in-star-wars