Batman-Online.com

Now a feature

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2008/7/19/comic-influences-on-tim-burtons-batman-1989

I have frequented the "influences" thread at BOF, which deserves a sticky by the way, many times looking at how similar shots in B89 and DC #27-37 are.    Its amazing how they read like story boards.  Thank you, BatmAngelus, as well as thecolorsblend, and Evil Twin for showing that the most recent Batfilms are not the only ones that have been "true" to the comics  ;).    

@BatmAngelus:  Would it be possible to add frames from The Killing Joke to the above? The Joker Origin seems to fit.  And are any of the above from Strange Apparitions? Also, it would be very interesting to see similiar threads with BB and TDK, here and at BOF ;).

 

Quote from: BurtonBatman on Fri, 18 Jul  2008, 01:40
And are any of the above from Strange Apparitions?  

Posted too soon.  You answered my question preemptively ;).

In re-reading my post, I see that I didn't actually cite what comics those were.  Oops.
Anyways, yes, the two photos of Joker on the television are from Strange Apparitions's Laughing Fish story.  I will fix my post to credit it.

Quote from: BurtonBatman on Fri, 18 Jul  2008, 01:40
Would it be possible to add frames from The Killing Joke to the above? And are any of the above from Strange Apparitions? Also, it would be very interesting to see similiar threads with BB and TDK, here and at BOF ;).  

I'm sure that I, or someone else, could dig up a few similarities in visuals between The Killing Joke and the film as well.  
While I know that the comic was influential on Burton, I don't really see a lot of it in the movie, aside from a few similarities that could be coincidences (i.e. the chemical bath origin, the Batcomputer with multiple screens, a shot of Batman on the rooftop next to the Bat-Signal, the Batmobile rushing into the Joker's hideout).  I'll be happy to be proven wrong, though.

As for BB, I did the same with Begins at the DC Comments forum.  I can transfer it over to here, too.  And I'm sure there will be stuff from The Dark Knight...

Great Post!!!, i knew detective comics 27 and others and have found some of this, other scene is in both Batman 89 and Detective 27 is Comissioner Gordon in Wayne Manor (at the begining of both adventures) i will try to put the images too

this post proves how close to the Original Batman is to Burton's Batman

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 18 Jul  2008, 01:24
Michael Uslan in the intro for Batman In The Fifties: Apparently, the Batmobile of 1950 "would also be the primary influence for genius production designer Anton Furst, who imagineered the 1989 Batmobile for the first Batman feature, winning an Oscar for his creative efforts."
The Batmobile of 1950 gave the car its trademark "long" look as well as the flaming afterburner in the back of the vehicle that probably gave Furst the influence.

This is interesting.  When I was rereading my Batman Chronicles #1 recently, I noticed that the red "high powered" car Batman uses in DC#30 in part 2 of the Hugo Strange arc looked similar  to the B89/BR Batmobile in that it was long.  I thought that must have been the primary influence, but I guess not. 

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 18 Jul  2008, 01:53
I'm sure that I, or someone else, could dig up a few similarities in visuals between The Killing Joke and the film as well.  
While I know that the comic was influential on Burton, I don't really see a lot of it in the movie, aside from a few similarities that could be coincidences (i.e. the chemical bath origin, the Batcomputer with multiple screens, a shot of Batman on the rooftop next to the Bat-Signal, the Batmobile rushing into the Joker's hideout).  I'll be happy to be proven wrong, though.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "coincidences?"  Are you saying that the Joker origin scenes in B89 could have had more direct influences by other sources?  I would consider the Joker frames you mentioned pretty direct influences.  What's the difference?

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 18 Jul  2008, 01:53
As for BB, I did the same with Begins at the DC Comments forum.  I can transfer it over to here, too.  And I'm sure there will be stuff from The Dark Knight...

Please do  ;D

This thread has a sticky now.  Cool.

Quote from: BurtonBatman on Fri, 18 Jul  2008, 12:42
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "coincidences?"  Are you saying that the Joker origin scenes in B89 could have had more direct influences by other sources?  I would consider the Joker frames you mentioned pretty direct influences.  What's the difference?

By coincidences, I mean that the similarities may not mean that they are entirely from The Killing Joke.
For example, the shot of Batman on the rooftop looking at the Bat-Signal- I would think that this is a pretty standard shot in Batman comics.  Plus, the composition and pose for Batman is different than the shot in the last frame of the film.
Same goes for the Batcomputer with multiple screens and the Batmobile storming through Joker's hideout- which I think may have been pretty common in the comics.  I could be wrong though.

As for the chemical bath origin, as you probably know, 1951's The Man Behind The Red Hood had the same origin.  The biggest difference is that The Red Hood/pre-Joker was a criminal whom Batman was tracking, much like Jack Napier. 
I find that story more likely to have influenced Sam Hamm because his first draft of the script, which features the same origin as the movie, is dated 1987 whereas The Killing Joke did not come out until 1988, making The Man Behind The Red Hood story his only reference for writing those scenes.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 18 Jul  2008, 16:02
By coincidences, I mean that the similarities may not mean that they are entirely from The Killing Joke.
For example, the shot of Batman on the rooftop looking at the Bat-Signal- I would think that this is a pretty standard shot in Batman comics.  Plus, the composition and pose for Batman is different than the shot in the last frame of the film.
Same goes for the Batcomputer with multiple screens and the Batmobile storming through Joker's hideout- which I think may have been pretty common in the comics.  I could be wrong though.

Gotcha.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 18 Jul  2008, 16:02
As for the chemical bath origin, as you probably know, 1951's The Man Behind The Red Hood had the same origin.  The biggest difference is that The Red Hood/pre-Joker was a criminal whom Batman was tracking, much like Jack Napier. 
I find that story more likely to have influenced Sam Hamm because his first draft of the script, which features the same origin as the movie, is dated 1987 whereas The Killing Joke did not come out until 1988, making The Man Behind The Red Hood story his only reference for writing those scenes.

No, I did not know about the Man Behind the Red Hood, thanks again for the history lesson.  B89 brought me to Batman and only in the last year or two have I delved into comics, so I have a bit of catchup to do  ;).  And your point regarding TKJ and when it came out makes perfect sense.

This thread truly deserves a sticky.  Perhaps you and your cohorts should write a book delving into the comic influences of all the Batfilms ;).

Batmaneglus, brilliant, just brilliant!

I really enjoyed reading that. you know your sh1t, lol excuse the language.

Good to see some Batman 89 comparisons to the comics after hearing so much rubbish about how its not true to the comics from anti 89 fans.

I'm glad that my images have been recycled here.  When this thread first popped up on BOF, I didn't realize just how extensively B89 mined the comics for inspiration.  It's a lot more subtle than the Nolan franchise but there's a ton of it there if you look for it.

Good one, Batmangelus.

Thanks, guys.
And it's good to see you again, colors.  :)

WOW i knew that 89 had some influences from the comics in it but from what people have said there was none and thats why the nolan movies were superior ::) but i guess they were wrong kudos to you BatmAngelus i tip my hat to you sir.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Fri, 18 Jul  2008, 23:36
Thanks, guys.
And it's good to see you again, colors.  :)

Thanks bud.  Good to be here.  :)  You still around the Third BOF Reich these days?

Hahaha, yeah, every now and then.

Quote from: Sandman on Sat, 19 Jul  2008, 00:09
WOW i knew that 89 had some influences from the comics in it but from what people have said there was none and thats why the nolan movies were superior ::) but i guess they were wrong kudos to you BatmAngelus i tip my hat to you sir.

Thanks, Sandman.  And yes, they were wrong- the film may not represent the era or comic book interpretation they like (which is all subjective anyway), but the citations in Benjamin Robinson's thesis on this site as well as these pics simply demonstrate the fact that Batman (1989 is faithful to the original comics.

again: great post batmanagelus

i believe that Batman 89 is similar to "The Killing Joke" but not in a explicit frame, like the "The Dark Knight" scene where Batman and Joker are talking on a table, i believe that the reference maybe is in trying to demostrate the similarities between Batman and Joker, you know on "Batman"(89) one(Batman-Joker) creates another(Batman-Joker), the whole movie is like a paralell between the two characters, in fact the two characters are conected by the same woman, that demostrate that they are the two sides of the same coin, like "the Killing Joke" comic demostrate in a diferent way, i believe that's why Harvey Dent-Two Face character is on the movie and i believe that's why Nolan puts him again on a Joker movie.

well i believe that is the influence: in both "The Killing Joke" And "Batman" 89 the scripts demostrate how similar this two guys are.


(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.batmanmovieonline.com%2Fgallery%2F1217482962.jpg&hash=efe786305e588afe02eb8d581db23814b405a3d1)


and please put the link where you did this with Batman Begins, and have you do it with Batman Returns?? put the links and check this post i wrote: http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/forum/index.php?topic=266.0 (http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/forum/index.php?topic=266.0)

Banmaneglus, theres another pic from an early comic, cant remember which one, but one of the first.

It has the Joker walking up a staircase. Always reminded me of when the Joker is going up the cathedral. I'll try and find which comic its out of an post back.

Also, maybe you should include when the joker dies in the Batman #1 and you see hes still smiling. Robins there and says to Batman "Look hes still grinning, even in death"

Just a thought.

^ Great ideas, ZUPERZERO and Joker81.

I'll have to see if I can dig up that photo of the Joker's death from Batman #1.  Unfortunately, I don't have that part of Batman #1 (it sadly wasn't in my copy of the "Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told," but I have read it before) nor do I have a working scanner (believe it or not, all of these pics were found online).

ZUPERZERO, I'll be posting more influence threads soon.

I dont have a scanner. but i do have that comic, i can take a photo and post it tomorrw!  :)

I have added this as a feature on the main site - i also include a few more photos from the movie to help illustrate the points a little more.  ;D

Thanks, raleagh.

I take it that you could edit that feature if we found more (i.e. the Batman #1 panel that Joker81 is digging up)?
I also sent the link to Evil Twin for his evaluation.  I'll let you know if he has any suggestions or further contributions.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 20 Jul  2008, 16:45
Thanks, raleagh.

I take it that you could edit that feature if we found more (i.e. the Batman #1 panel that Joker81 is digging up)?
I also sent the link to Evil Twin for his evaluation.  I'll let you know if he has any suggestions or further contributions.

yeah, it can be edited no problem - either myself or the mods can edit it.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 20 Jul  2008, 16:45
Thanks, raleagh.

I take it that you could edit that feature if we found more (i.e. the Batman #1 panel that Joker81 is digging up)?
I also sent the link to Evil Twin for his evaluation.  I'll let you know if he has any suggestions or further contributions.

Holy crap, does Evil Twin120 post here too?  Wowzers, aside from all the Nolan Nazis from BOF, I'd say the gang's all here!

I don't think he posts here (if he does, I haven't seen anything).  I had to contact him via PM at BOF.  He's gotta join here, though.  I know nothing about Batman comics compared to him.

I haven't seen Evil Twins name in the member list.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue, 22 Jul  2008, 07:39
I don't think he posts here (if he does, I haven't seen anything).  I had to contact him via PM at BOF.  He's gotta join here, though.  I know nothing about Batman comics compared to him.

Agreed.  I know a decent bit but that guy is the Jedi Master of Batman comics...

haha. Nolan Nazis. Thats a new one on me.

Quote from: shadowbat69 on Wed, 23 Jul  2008, 03:01
haha. Nolan Nazis. Thats a new one on me.

How about Nolzies?

that frame where Joker is shooting to Batman and saying " Why you don't you die" remind me a lot of one scene on "Batman Forever" remember when Two Face says almost the same words when he is trying to kill Batman: in the middle of the film when Robin saves Batman for the first time

I noticed this the other night.  Forgive me if this angle has already been covered.  I watched B89 the other night because I'm becoming more obsessed with the Burton movies each year.  Anyway, here's what we've got.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blissnet.org%2Fbmoavatar%2Fcomicinfluence%2F02a.jpg&hash=42d7b823d48238999020b21ca42a67494ee93bb5)
This is taken from Detective Comics #27.  The villain (whose name escapes me) ends up falling into the acid below after getting punched in the face by Batman.  The similarities in this scene are obvious...

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blissnet.org%2Fbmoavatar%2Fcomicinfluence%2F02b.jpg&hash=331c0679a9e89260a04e49e32741b0806661762d)

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blissnet.org%2Fbmoavatar%2Fcomicinfluence%2F02c.jpg&hash=e96ef0a614a7ad1de54012e76800e0fc34ce6c2f)
What's interesting though is that obviously the villain in #27 isn't the Joker.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blissnet.org%2Fbmoavatar%2Fcomicinfluence%2F02d.jpg&hash=0f8ec006380fd096d7e80e4e67f600a878f8cf00)
In The Killing Joke, the Joker becomes the Joker after a dip in toxic waste.  However, it was by choice on his part.  A desperate choice but a choice nonetheless.  He chose to dive in.

Not only does this scene tie two comics references (The Killing Joke and general Joker mythology along with Detective #27 specifically) together into a single sequence though, it also heightens the already #27-heavy references in B89.  Detective #27 was always a blue print for the Axis Chemical shoot out in my mind but now it's completely inseparable.  I've always thought #27 was a big (and unsung) influence on the production but now you REALLY cannot separate from the Axis sequence/birth of the Joker stuff.

^ Exactly.  There are a number of parallels between Batman89 and the Case of the Chemical Syndicate.  It's funny...when I first saw B89 aside from the big narrative departure (Joker kills Batman's parents), I couldn't help but feel Burton really nailed a strong adaptation of the comics--a fusion of the Golden Age and TDK.

I think a number of younger fans have short term memory, and don't realize that B89 was pre-Loeb/Sale, and the script went into production as B:YO was on the stands.

Yeah, all the talk during 89 was TDKR, not Year One.

Wow... I also never knew how Batman 89 captured elements of those early comics. Excellent article.

Tim Burton Meet the HQs?

One part of B89 that might have been comic book influenced was the scene after Batman cut the Joker's balloons and after stepping off the float Joker casually shoots Bob. This reminded me of a page from Detective Comics #475, AKA "The Laughing Fish", where the Joker pushes one of his men in front of a moving truck after he asks an innocent question.

Quote from: batass4880 on Thu, 18 Sep  2008, 23:46
This reminded me of a page from Detective Comics #475, AKA "The Laughing Fish", where the Joker pushes one of his men in front of a moving truck after he asks an innocent question.

Also, remember the part where the Penguin shoots his goon for asking an innocent question

"Isn't that a little.....errrrr?"

"NO! It's a lot errrrr!"

HAha i love that bit ;D.

Quote from: raleagh on Fri, 19 Sep  2008, 08:22

Quote from: batass4880 on Thu, 18 Sep  2008, 23:46
This reminded me of a page from Detective Comics #475, AKA "The Laughing Fish", where the Joker pushes one of his men in front of a moving truck after he asks an innocent question.

Also, remember the part where the Penguin shoots his goon for asking an innocent question

"Isn't that a little.....errrrr?"

"NO! It's a lot errrrr!"

Oh yeah, I never thought about that!  :)

Wow. That's all I can say. Batman 89 really is faithful to the very early Batman, more than I thought.

You need to have more faith in Tim Burton, he did care about his Batman movies and that's why they held up after all this time. Unlike another director that totally ruined his movies because he didn't care about the character or the movie.

Judging from these comic references, if you take Burton's Batman as the very early Batman, it is pretty dead on in what it sets out to achieve. It isn't really the modern Batman at all.

Well yes it may not be "new" "flashy" and "modern", but it has lasted almost 20 year and will last 20 more, Great movies always do ;).

Quote from: Sandman on Mon, 29 Sep  2008, 09:20
Well yes it may not be "new" "flashy" and "modern", but it has lasted almost 20 year and will last 20 more, Great movies always do ;).

It sure will. I was just saying that Burton's Batman isn't the modern day comic, it is the very early comics. The very first comics they made. That's fine.

True Burton's films are more the Original comic, esp Batman but alot of that has to do with him being expertly played by Michael Keaton which still needs to be bested. you can also see the original comic through the style, tone, costumes and hell even some of the scenes are taken right out of it.

And for those who said that Keaton was not physically fit for the part, all they have to do is look at the first several issues of Detective Comics in 1939 where Bruce/Batman appears to be average height and build!

Yeah, true. He did have some strength, but it was the suit that truly made him the animalistic hero.

Now a feature

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2008/7/19/comic-influences-on-tim-burtons-batman-1989

^ Another great post, Silver Nemesis.  Thanks for contributing  ;D

raleagh, could we add these to the feature page of the site?

yeah, surely.  They will be added this weekend.

Wow, excellent comic comparisons there.

agreed, really good comparison! In your face to all you 89 naysayers!

Also in the movie where the Joker is dumping money on the streets of Gotham to lure everybody to their death. This could have been a reference from The Dark Knight Returns where the Joker was giving free cotton candy to boy scouts that was poisoned.

The Killing Joke might have had an influence on B89 in that the two Joker thugs that are standing at the door when Joker shoots Barbara Gordon, remind me of Bob and the thug who Batman has a brutal fight with in the belfry. (I wish I had a digital camera otherwise I would show you these comparisons)  :'(

The Killing Joke is the most obvious out of all of the comic influences in 89, its the book Burton gave to the board at WB and told them " I want the film to look like this" for him to get the greenlight for the film.

Quote from: DarkVengeance on Tue,  7 Oct  2008, 04:58
The Killing Joke is the most obvious out of all of the comic influences in 89, its the book Burton gave to the board at WB and told them " I want the film to look like this" for him to get the greenlight for the film.

No he didnt, he was already on the project working with Jon Peters and Peter Gubers who brought him on board. What got Burton the greenlight was Beetlejiuce being a hit.

Ya Beetlejuice was one factor, another was getting Nicholson to agree to do the film.

WHY SO SOUR?? lol you really do give me a good laugh! ;D

This one is pretty obvious but the first time in the movie when you see Batman fighting those punks on that rooftop was probably inspired by the cover of Detective Comics #27. Every time I look at that cover it reminds me of that scene as well as the movie.

Quote from: batass4880 on Sat, 25 Oct  2008, 04:05
This one is pretty obvious but the first time in the movie when you see Batman fighting those punks on that rooftop was probably inspired by the cover of Detective Comics #27. Every time I look at that cover it reminds me of that scene as well as the movie.

Yeah. I liked how the comic adaptation referenced it.

I love these kinds of topics. I can't believe after nearly twenty years you can still come across those people who will still make the same old ignorant and uninformed claims.

Ex. Tim Burton never read a comic book, Burton doesn't care about the comics etc.

Seriously, this film is a very pure comic film, Returns is no exception either. All the Batman films have great purity, even the semi-dreadful Batman and Robin is pretty legitimate. As a matter of fact, all you have to do is watch the special features and all indiscretion towards comic purity should be relatively null and void.

On this note, Keaton looks even closer to the original BW than I even realized originally. I'm sure it's pure coincidence, but seriously, and I'm not just saying this as a Keaton fan, that comic shot and the Keaton shot in the Batcave where he is having the day-mare about his parents death is almost a mirror image.

Great topic, and absolutely awesome references and research.

Now, you guys may or may not have mentioned this already, but I found two more points. One is probably coincidence, but the second is definately an inspiration.
1) (From Batman #1) Joker announces his sinister plans over the radio (in the movie, it's on TV)
2) (Also from Batman #1) Joker laughes it up with his victim. The way it's played out is almost identical to the movie.

Actually, I thought they already did show this. The second one makes me want a section with educational scans of the full issues of #27-37 or batman #1. I can't find any of this anywhere. I'd also love to see the killing joke more fully.

BTW, I was looking around for more and was incouraged to beleave that inspiration is inspiration and influence is influence. You can look and be dissapointed if you think it means a gross panel recreation. Either it's not going to be the same, or something so small as a cameo more fuccosed with the film's story with it's main important sources and influence.

You know, I think BM has have the escuse of being more the story lines of the first BatMan issues. Merely, they pay tribute to the others by making a toned down version that fits with it. And hey, TKJ isn't that different. Again, it's small peices here and there on Nolan's too and they aren't word for word either. Multiple choice inspires the little scar stories, the plot inspires Joker creating Two-Face quite a bit and I think BatAngelus shown there is few others.

EDITED: I think that no matter what, the Burton version is another revision on the origin with the only killing joke similarity being him being smaller in the organization currently involved with. I did wish they only replied to Jack as only to the Red Hood as a nick name instead, Jack Napier is too close to Jack Nickleson.

I think that most definatly, the pictures could be unless he's been shown doing that before this.

Quote from: Slash Man on Fri,  8 May  2009, 20:38
Now, you guys may or may not have mentioned this already, but I found two more points. One is probably coincidence, but the second is definately an inspiration.
1) (From Batman #1) Joker announces his sinister plans over the radio (in the movie, it's on TV)
2) (Also from Batman #1) Joker laughes it up with his victim. The way it's played out is almost identical to the movie.

Which part do you mean? You mean with Bruce Wayne where he tells the story to Joker?

EDIT: I think you mean the actual scene with the meeting am I correct?

EDIT2: this needs to be shown.

Okay, this is an extreme thread-revival, but I realize that I didn't elaborate on my second point (and I haven't signed on in a good two years).
I was talking about the Smilex commercial, where he hijacks the station to announce his plan. There's really no logical reason to do that in both the movie and the comic, but it's the Joker. Unpredictable is kinda his thing.

And the Joker talking to a corpse is directly out of his first outing. Is that what you were wondering about?

And there's bound to be more influences, since I only got those from reading the earliest Batman comics.

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2008/7/19/comic-influences-on-tim-burtons-batman-1989

^ Great additions, Gotham Alleys.  Going to read your blog posts soon.

Also:

QuoteMONARCH was the name of the place that contributed to Joker's birth. In the movie, its the place that contributed to Batman's birth

After years of knowing about the Monarch Playing Card Company and the Monarch Theater, this connection never occurred to me until you pointed it out....

Feature is finally back online. Sorry for the delay

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2008/7/19/comic-influences-on-tim-burtons-batman-1989

Thanks, Paul.  Let's see if Kevin Smith catches this one, too  ;)

Love it!! 

Feature is now back up!  Reorganized and split into pages, with new references included.

I think the page breaks work really well. They divide the features up into more digestible chunks.

One thing I've noticed, however, is that the first paragraph of each page after the first one is incorrectly aligned. That includes the headings "BATMAN AND THE COMICS" and "BATMAN RETURNS AND THE COMICS" which should be centred. The other paragraphs should all be justified. I'm not sure how that's happened.

Other than that though, they look great. I hope everyone takes a look at them. There are a lot of new references in them both.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 27 Sep  2012, 21:24

One thing I've noticed, however, is that the first paragraph of each page after the first one is incorrectly aligned. That includes the headings "BATMAN AND THE COMICS" and "BATMAN RETURNS AND THE COMICS" which should be centred. The other paragraphs should all be justified. I'm not sure how that's happened.

Fixed

Great job all!  Looks terrific.  :)

It seems Burton also consulted Brian Bolland when he was making Batman 89.

QuoteNo, but I did meet him before he made the film. He was at Pinewood Studios in London and he asked me to come over and meet him. Apparently he'd read and liked The Killing Joke (take a look at his comment on the Deluxe Edition). He asked me to do some production sketches for the film. He wanted my opinion about the Joker and how he should look. I seem to remember telling him he should look like Conrad Veidt in the '20s silent film "The Man Who Laughs" and that he should have prosthetics to create the grin. He wanted me to start right away. I said that I had some things for 2000 AD that I had to do first. He said he'd be working on Batman 2 by then! So, I didn't end up working for Tim Burton on Batman. I thought Jack Nicholson looked terrible.

http://www.comicsbulletin.com/interviews/4688/komiksowa-warszawa-festival-a-conversation-with-brian-bolland/

So, the list of comic creators Burton & co consulted for the movie now includes:

•   Bob Kane
•   Steve Englehart
•   Marshall Rogers
•   Alan Moore
•   Brian Bolland

Anyone else?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 28 Apr  2013, 11:51
I thought Jack Nicholson looked terrible.

[/quote]
Did he mean that Nicholson looked terrible as he intended the Joker to look like, or did he mean that the makeup job was poor? Because if it's the latter...  ::) ::) ::).

I think he meant the overall look (costume design, make up, etc) was terrible.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 28 Apr  2013, 13:12
I think he meant the overall look (costume design, make up, etc) was terrible.

Hence my roll-eye comment at the end of my last post. Which I'll do it again at Bolland's comment... ::) ::) ::).

Unfortunately, all people will take away from this is "See? Jack was lame!" instead of "See? Tim actually consulted many comics people to do justice to the character."

^ Sadly true.

I can't speak for Bolland, but his comment reminds me of how the fandom these days talks about how Nicholson was "too fat" for Joker, which I find ridiculous.  For one thing, maybe it's just me, but Jack doesn't look overweight at all in the film. 

For another, I think those critics expect him to look like the Neal Adams/Brian Bolland style Joker and Jack, even in his younger days in Chinatown, never had that kind of face.  His facial structure just isn't angular enough.

He does, however, look damn close to the Dick Sprang Joker in the movie, as pointed out in our feature:
http://www.batman-online.com/features/2008/7/19/comic-influences-on-tim-burtons-batman-1989/3

But since the Dick Sprang Joker belonged to the lighter era of Batman, I guess it doesn't count ::)

Jack wasn't fat, but the vest wasn't very complimentary to his physique (I go through the same), if he had worn a vest closer in look to the comics (with the pointed edges) it would have worked better.

^ Right you are. Compare the Joker scenes to Napier's. Napier doesn't look chubby (or at least not overly so). Interesting the difference costuming can make.

This is nothing more of a coincidence, but anyway, I remember reading Detective Comics #504 (1981), and there is a scene where the Joker escapes by a parachute while performing a robbery and cries out "Sometimes, I [just] kill myself" - nearly identical to Nicholson Joker's last words as he attempts to escape the cathedral by helicopter.

(https://i.imgur.com/5Pz8Gt8.jpg)

Of course, this can be dismissed as banal to point out. But on the other hand, you might be able to argue the Joker enjoys laughing at his own twisted sense of humour, being the egomaniac that he is.  ;)

Here's a nice video comparing the differences between Batman 1989 the film, and Batman 1989 the comic book adaptation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9rc2aIa4ro&list=FL2E_KOhE1_wJT8fltjHkXsA&index=26&t=460s

Good find! Nice video there. I always assumed that the comic book was based on earlier script that O'Neil and Ordway tweaked in order to make it more comic-friendly. So the comic book probably evolved under different conditions with different requirements beginning from a slightly different starting point. Differences are inevitable. And, really, desirable since some of the stuff in B89 wouldn't work as effectively in a comic.

One of the more serious surgical operations I've ever seen performed on a comic adaptation of a movie is Superman IV. The differences between the comic and the movie are absolutely staggering since the comic creators took it upon themselves to fix a lot of the movie's problems. I daresay the Superman IV comic book is a far more enjoyable experience than the movie upon which it is based.

The video neglected to mention the comic included the deleted scene where the Joker was tricking people with fake money, which was meant to be a callback to the "My face on the one dollar bill" line earlier on in the film.

(https://i.imgur.com/mRMlIgv.jpg)

It was planned in the script and props do exist.

Source: https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=2873.0

Out of all the scrapped scenes, I wish this was included in the film. My only guess why it wasn't included was because the production was tight with meeting the 2 hour running time. But I still reckon the scene could've lasted five seconds at best and I'm sure it could've squeezed into that parade scene.

It's a nice video, but I do have some gripes the commentary. I'm not sure where the narrator gets the idea Keaton's Batman is dangerous and reckless with his use of his vehicles. Keaton's Batman and Vicki were trying to escape from the Joker's goons, and they were forced to abandon the Batmobile when the road is blocked, and taking the chase away from the public. Batman used the Batwing to remove the toxic balloons away from the crowd and only shot at Joker at his goons. I don't see how any of his conduct here is any more dangerous than other future portrayals of the character.

I don't buy that Bruce's relationship with Vicki makes him less dedicated either. Bruce has had romantic relationships in the comics, but that alone doesn't necessarily make him any less focused on his mission. Actually, Bruce appeared to be at peace when it was revealed it didn't work out with Vicki in BR, unlike say, in Detective Comics #478 - where he is distraught and angry over the fact that being Batman is what drove him and Silver St Cloud apart and even considered quitting in one moment.

I wanted that scene in the movie because it pays off Joker's earlier remark to Vicki that he wanted his face on the $1 bill.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 17 Nov  2018, 15:24
I daresay the Superman IV comic book is a far more enjoyable experience than the movie upon which it is based.

I really need to get ahold of that book one day.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 18 Nov  2018, 04:00
The video neglected to mention the comic included the deleted scene where the Joker was tricking people with fake money, which was meant to be a callback to the "My face on the one dollar bill" line earlier on in the film.

(https://i.imgur.com/mRMlIgv.jpg)

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 18 Nov  2018, 06:36
I wanted that scene in the movie because it pays off Joker's earlier remark to Vicki that he wanted his face on the $1 bill.

Yes. I think in the Joker's mind, luring the 'little people' of Gotham to their demise with what is the equivalent to monopoly money, provides the gag, or punchline to the balloon parade itself. Essentially, a preliminary set up to have scores of victims dead on the streets prior to the Joker's battle with Batman.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 18 Nov  2018, 04:00
The video neglected to mention the comic included the deleted scene where the Joker was tricking people with fake money, which was meant to be a callback to the "My face on the one dollar bill" line earlier on in the film.

(https://i.imgur.com/mRMlIgv.jpg)

It was planned in the script and props do exist.

Source: https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=2873.0

Out of all the scrapped scenes, I wish this was included in the film. My only guess why it wasn't included was because the production was tight with meeting the 2 hour running time. But I still reckon the scene could've lasted five seconds at best and I'm sure it could've squeezed into that parade scene.

I'm actually a bigger fan of the idea that he handed out real money. Only because it highlights that the Joker could care less about materialistic things to the point that he'd hand out $20 million just to kill as many people as possible.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Sun,  9 Dec  2018, 03:27
I'm actually a bigger fan of the idea that he handed out real money. Only because it highlights that the Joker could care less about materialistic things to the point that he'd hand out $20 million just to kill as many people as possible.

Yeah, that's a valid point to make. But I personally like the idea that he could have given away fake money as a rude wake-up call to the mindless masses before he tries to gas them to death. Nonetheless, he still tricked them in any case.

The fake money would've had the message that people weren't paying attention to what was really going on, and the joke was truly on them. Greed blinded them. But I guess even in the film version the intent of the public is still the same. They attended the parade for free money because they were greedy and opportunistic. They didn't care that the Joker was a poisoning murderer - free money was to be had. The fake money would've just been a nice added flourish.

This panel below from Detective Comics #484 reminds me of the scene where Batman rises above the wreckage after the Joker destroyed the Batwing. In this comic, the Batmobile was destroyed by Maxie Zeus's lightning.

(https://i.imgur.com/u1sZxpi.jpg)

Good example there. I remember feeling sad for Batman as a young kid every time I watched this scene, knowing he was hurt, and the fact such an awesome vehicle had just been destroyed. It really did make the film better though, especially for the finale. Throwing those cathedral doors open and climbing the stairs with that bloodied face conjures a lot of emotion and power in me even today.

Sam Hamm gave an interview with Back Issue magazine in May concerning the 1989 film's 30th anniversary. 13th Dimension posted a fairly lengthy extract in which Hamm discusses the comic book influences on the film. This is probably the most in-depth discussion on the subject I've read from anyone connected with the film's production, though it basically just confirms what Michael Uslan has already said.

When asked about the 1989 film, Hamm specifically cites 'The Man Behind the Red Hood!' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #168, February 1951) and 'The Joker's Five-Way Revenge!' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #251, September 1973) as influences on his screenplay. When asked about The Dark Knight Returns, he says that only the first two issues had been printed at the time he and Burton began working on the film. But he says they were sent B&W copies of the unpublished chapters, and that he did appropriate certain elements from the story: specifically the image of Batman riding on horseback (in the deleted Robin sequence) and the idea of Batman using the emblem on his chest to draw gunfire away from his head. He also confirms that DC sent him and Burton the Englehart/Rogers run, but says it didn't influence them much beyond the portrayal of Gotham being run my mobsters (which more or less confirms the Rupert Thorne/Carl Grissom connection that Englehart himself has put forth). At one point the interviewer mentions the apparent influence of 'The Case of the Chemical Syndicate' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #27, May 1939) on the film, but Hamm neither confirms nor denies this. He does however deny Year One being an influence, stating that it hadn't yet been published at the time he was working on the film.

You can read the full extract from the interview here: https://13thdimension.com/sam-hamm-the-comic-books-that-inspired-batman-89/

Hamm discussed the comic influence again in August during an interview with Comics Alliance:

QuoteWe wanted to do a "dark" Batman from the outset. Although we didn't consciously model our version on a particular storyline from the comics, I would probably cite the Denny O'Neil stories from the early '70s, like "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge", as an important tonal influence. Denny was plainly trying to reclaim the mystery of Batman and the homicidal insanity of the Joker, and he had lots of help from Neal Adams, Jim Aparo, et al.

I also have to mention Giant Batman Annual #3, featuring Batman and Robin's Most Fantastic Foes, which made a huge impression on me as a kid. The older stories reprinted from the thirties and forties ran a bit more toward the lurid side than the relatively tame, post-Comics Code product I was used to. I loved Gorilla Boss, the crime lord who had his brain transplanted into the body of an ape, and of course Two-Face, the D.A. disfigured by an acid-throwing witness in mid-trial. There's a lot of Two-Face in my version of the Joker.

We were excited by the "revisionist" stories such as Dark Knight Returns, which was just coming out as we began work on the movie, and The Killing Joke, which followed a bit later, although there were only stray bits and pieces we could borrow from them.  At that particular moment there was a weird recrudescence of interest in Batman...we knew something was burbling under the surface, but of course we couldn't foresee the cultural phenomenon we were about to become part of.

https://comicsalliance.com/sam-hamm-interview-batman-89-tim-burton/

The part about the 1989 Joker being influenced by the comic book Two-Face is particularly interesting. I'd not heard that before. I'll have to see if I can identify some of those influences in the movie.

Now if we could only get some quotes about the comic influences on Batman Returns. If someone who worked on the film could just confirm Detective Comics Vol 1 #58 and Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper as influences, I'll be content.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 23 Nov  2019, 13:40
Sam Hamm gave an interview with Back Issue magazine in May concerning the 1989 film's 30th anniversary. 13th Dimension posted a fairly lengthy extract in which Hamm discusses the comic book influences on the film. This is probably the most in-depth discussion on the subject I've read from anyone connected with the film's production, though it basically just confirms what Michael Uslan has already said.

When asked about the 1989 film, Hamm specifically cites 'The Man Behind the Red Hood!' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #168, February 1951) and 'The Joker's Five-Way Revenge!' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #251, September 1973) as influences on his screenplay. When asked about The Dark Knight Returns, he says that only the first two issues had been printed at the time he and Burton began working on the film. But he says they were sent B&W copies of the unpublished chapters, and that he did appropriate certain elements from the story: specifically the image of Batman riding on horseback (in the deleted Robin sequence) and the idea of Batman using the emblem on his chest to draw gunfire away from his head. He also confirms that DC sent him and Burton the Englehart/Rogers run, but says it didn't influence them much beyond the portrayal of Gotham being run my mobsters (which more or less confirms the Rupert Thorne/Carl Grissom connection that Englehart himself has put forth). At one point the interviewer mentions the apparent influence of 'The Case of the Chemical Syndicate' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #27, May 1939) on the film, but Hamm neither confirms nor denies this. He does however deny Year One being an influence, stating that it hadn't yet been published at the time he was working on the film.

You can read the full extract from the interview here: https://13thdimension.com/sam-hamm-the-comic-books-that-inspired-batman-89/

Hamm discussed the comic influence again in August during an interview with Comics Alliance:

QuoteWe wanted to do a "dark" Batman from the outset. Although we didn't consciously model our version on a particular storyline from the comics, I would probably cite the Denny O'Neil stories from the early '70s, like "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge", as an important tonal influence. Denny was plainly trying to reclaim the mystery of Batman and the homicidal insanity of the Joker, and he had lots of help from Neal Adams, Jim Aparo, et al.

I also have to mention Giant Batman Annual #3, featuring Batman and Robin's Most Fantastic Foes, which made a huge impression on me as a kid. The older stories reprinted from the thirties and forties ran a bit more toward the lurid side than the relatively tame, post-Comics Code product I was used to. I loved Gorilla Boss, the crime lord who had his brain transplanted into the body of an ape, and of course Two-Face, the D.A. disfigured by an acid-throwing witness in mid-trial. There's a lot of Two-Face in my version of the Joker.

We were excited by the "revisionist" stories such as Dark Knight Returns, which was just coming out as we began work on the movie, and The Killing Joke, which followed a bit later, although there were only stray bits and pieces we could borrow from them.  At that particular moment there was a weird recrudescence of interest in Batman...we knew something was burbling under the surface, but of course we couldn't foresee the cultural phenomenon we were about to become part of.

https://comicsalliance.com/sam-hamm-interview-batman-89-tim-burton/

The part about the 1989 Joker being influenced by the comic book Two-Face is particularly interesting. I'd not heard that before. I'll have to see if I can identify some of those influences in the movie.

Now if we could only get some quotes about the comic influences on Batman Returns. If someone who worked on the film could just confirm Detective Comics Vol 1 #58 and Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper as influences, I'll be content.

So I'm a little confused here. I've always justified Batman's actions in this movie as being an accurate depiction of the characters first year in the comics prior to Robin. However, Sam Hamm seemingly isn't bringing those references up as an inspiration on the film. So is Batman in this movie not inspired by that first year prior to Robin's introduction?

Also, I'm a little confused with him saying that the Belfrey sequence was always in the script. For years I've always heard that that was a last minute change inspired by Nicholson and Peter's going to an Opera.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu, 28 Nov  2019, 03:50So I'm a little confused here. I've always justified Batman's actions in this movie as being an accurate depiction of the characters first year in the comics prior to Robin. However, Sam Hamm seemingly isn't bringing those references up as an inspiration on the film. So is Batman in this movie not inspired by that first year prior to Robin's introduction?

I think so. The characterisation of Batman in the 1989 film is closer to the original 1939-1940 Kane/Finger run than any other era of the comics. In these interviews, Hamm seems to be focusing on stories that he specifically referenced in his original script. We know that the 1939-1940 run was an influence on the 1989 film, as producer Michael Uslan has confirmed showing those comics to Burton when providing him with research materials. Kane himself was also a consultant throughout the production of the movie. So while the 1939-1940 stories might not have inspired specific elements in Hamm's 1986 script – although I'm pretty sure the opening act was influenced by 'The Case of the Chemical Syndicate' – they certainly did inform the overall tone of the finished movie.

Hamm also doesn't mention The Killing Joke in these interviews (hardly surprising, since it was published two years after he wrote his draft), but we know Burton was given an advanced copy of that story and supposedly carried it around with him on set. Warren Skaaren mentioned Bob Kane and The Killing Joke when discussing the source material in Comics Scene #14 (August 1990), though he didn't explicitly confirm the influence of the early pre-Robin stories:

Quote"I read them [the comics] sort of moderately. I wasn't a complete fanatic. I liked them, but I was a country kid, so I was more likely trying to look at a muskrat somewhere than read a comic. After I finished writing Batman, somebody sent me The Killing Joke. It was brilliant, but I thought it was a little too mean for what we were doing.

"DC Comics never voiced any opinion while I was writing it, but I did get notes from Bob Kane a couple times. He would read the script and send me notes, which was nice. I never met him on the set, but I did meet him at the film's premiere. I wouldn't have missed that for the world!"

But just because Hamm doesn't cite those early stories as influencing his script, doesn't mean they didn't influence other key creative figures in the film's production (e.g. Burton, Uslan, Skaaren).

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu, 28 Nov  2019, 03:50Also, I'm a little confused with him saying that the Belfrey sequence was always in the script. For years I've always heard that that was a last minute change inspired by Nicholson and Peter's going to an Opera.

Hamm's original draft (dated October 20th 1986) also features a showdown in the cathedral belfry, but it's very different from the one in the finished film. In the original script the Joker shoots down the Batwing using a tank that was hidden inside one of his parade floats. Batman is rescued from the burning wreckage by Dick Grayson. Dick then grabs a gun and tries to confront the Joker in the cathedral, but Batman renders him unconscious using a poisoned shuriken.

Batman, who is far more badly injured in the original script than in the finished film, pops some painkillers from his utility belt and pursues the Joker to the top of the cathedral where he collapses, practically dead. Batman gets his second wind in the finished film and is able to resume fighting, but that doesn't happen in the original script. Instead Bruce is suicidal in Hamm's draft and has previously installed an explosive device on his utility belt with which he intends to kill both himself and the Joker. The Joker drags Batman's semiconscious body into the belfry and removes his mask to reveal Bruce Wayne's features underneath. There then follows some dialogue which references The Dark Knight Returns:


The Joker hears his helicopter approaching and draws a razor blade. He's about to slit Bruce's throat when he notices the bomb timer on Batman's utility belt. Batman grabs hold of him, but the Joker breaks free and leaps from the belfry to grab hold of the ladder dangling from the helicopter outside. The downdraft from the helicopter disturbs some bats that are nesting in the belfry and they swarm around the Joker, causing him to lose his grip and fall to his doom. Batman then decides not to die and hurls his utility belt onto the bottom rung of the helicopter ladder where it detonates.

Warren Skaaren's rewrite (dated October 8th 1988) is the one they were meant to be shooting, but even that version differs from the finished film. In Skaaren's script Vicki is not present for the finale. Instead Batman pursues the Joker as far as the belfry trapdoor, then uses his grapple line to climb outside the tower and sneak up on his opponent. Following some back and forth dialogue (roughly half of which made it into the finished film), the Joker attacks Batman with a bell and almost knocks him off the belfry parapet. The Joker then tries to hide in the shadows while he waits for his helicopter to arrive, but Batman sneaks up on him and handcuffs the two of them together. Joker sprays acid on the handcuffs, and he and Batman fight while they wait for the cuffs to melt. The Joker breaks free, picks up a wooden 2 by 4 and uses it to beat Batman into submission. The Joker then makes a dash for the helicopter ladder while Bruce activates a sonic device on his utility belt (a possible Year One reference, since this draft was written after that story's publication). This rouses the bats nesting in the belfry so that they swarm around the Joker as he dangles from the ladder. Batman grabs hold of the Joker and following a brief struggle next to a gargoyle they both fall towards the city streets below. Batman saves himself using his grapple gun while the Joker plummets to his death.

This was then followed by the scene where Knox is found on the cathedral steps beneath Batman's cape, which was apparently filmed but cut from the movie.


What's interesting about Skaaren's draft is that although it differs from the finished film, it features most of the sets and props used in the final sequence: the belfry set with the trapdoor, parapet and broken wooden boards; the gargoyle, the helicopter with the rope ladder, the Joker's acid flower, Batman's grapple gun. All that's missing in the finished movie is the swarm of bats and the handcuffs.

As for Nicholson and Peters wanting the ending changed, perhaps it was their idea to incorporate Vicki into the belfry sequence?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 28 Nov  2019, 23:31

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu, 28 Nov  2019, 03:50So I'm a little confused here. I've always justified Batman's actions in this movie as being an accurate depiction of the characters first year in the comics prior to Robin. However, Sam Hamm seemingly isn't bringing those references up as an inspiration on the film. So is Batman in this movie not inspired by that first year prior to Robin's introduction?

I think so. The characterisation of Batman in the 1989 film is closer to the original 1939-1940 Kane/Finger run than any other era of the comics. In these interviews, Hamm seems to be focusing on stories that he specifically referenced in his original script. We know that the 1939-1940 run was an influence on the 1989 film, as producer Michael Uslan has confirmed showing those comics to Burton when providing him with research materials. Kane himself was also a consultant throughout the production of the movie. So while the 1939-1940 stories might not have inspired specific elements in Hamm's 1986 script – although I'm pretty sure the opening act was influenced by 'The Case of the Chemical Syndicate' – they certainly did inform the overall tone of the finished movie.

Hamm also doesn't mention The Killing Joke in these interviews (hardly surprising, since it was published two years after he wrote his draft), but we know Burton was given an advanced copy of that story and supposedly carried it around with him on set. Warren Skaaren mentioned Bob Kane and The Killing Joke when discussing the source material in Comics Scene #14 (August 1990), though he didn't explicitly confirm the influence of the early pre-Robin stories:

Quote"I read them [the comics] sort of moderately. I wasn't a complete fanatic. I liked them, but I was a country kid, so I was more likely trying to look at a muskrat somewhere than read a comic. After I finished writing Batman, somebody sent me The Killing Joke. It was brilliant, but I thought it was a little too mean for what we were doing.

"DC Comics never voiced any opinion while I was writing it, but I did get notes from Bob Kane a couple times. He would read the script and send me notes, which was nice. I never met him on the set, but I did meet him at the film's premiere. I wouldn't have missed that for the world!"

But just because Hamm doesn't cite those early stories as influencing his script, doesn't mean they didn't influence other key creative figures in the film's production (e.g. Burton, Uslan, Skaaren).

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu, 28 Nov  2019, 03:50Also, I'm a little confused with him saying that the Belfrey sequence was always in the script. For years I've always heard that that was a last minute change inspired by Nicholson and Peter's going to an Opera.

Hamm's original draft (dated October 20th 1986) also features a showdown in the cathedral belfry, but it's very different from the one in the finished film. In the original script the Joker shoots down the Batwing using a tank that was hidden inside one of his parade floats. Batman is rescued from the burning wreckage by Dick Grayson. Dick then grabs a gun and tries to confront the Joker in the cathedral, but Batman renders him unconscious using a poisoned shuriken.

Batman, who is far more badly injured in the original script than in the finished film, pops some painkillers from his utility belt and pursues the Joker to the top of the cathedral where he collapses, practically dead. Batman gets his second wind in the finished film and is able to resume fighting, but that doesn't happen in the original script. Instead Bruce is suicidal in Hamm's draft and has previously installed an explosive device on his utility belt with which he intends to kill both himself and the Joker. The Joker drags Batman's semiconscious body into the belfry and removes his mask to reveal Bruce Wayne's features underneath. There then follows some dialogue which references The Dark Knight Returns:

(https://i.postimg.cc/76fjFfx6/hamm-script.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hPFNYDND/murdered.png)

The Joker hears his helicopter approaching and draws a razor blade. He's about to slit Bruce's throat when he notices the bomb timer on Batman's utility belt. Batman grabs hold of him, but the Joker breaks free and leaps from the belfry to grab hold of the ladder dangling from the helicopter outside. The downdraft from the helicopter disturbs some bats that are nesting in the belfry and they swarm around the Joker, causing him to lose his grip and fall to his doom. Batman then decides not to die and hurls his utility belt onto the bottom rung of the helicopter ladder where it detonates.

Warren Skaaren's rewrite (dated October 8th 1988) is the one they were meant to be shooting, but even that version differs from the finished film. In Skaaren's script Vicki is not present for the finale. Instead Batman pursues the Joker as far as the belfry trapdoor, then uses his grapple line to climb outside the tower and sneak up on his opponent. Following some back and forth dialogue (roughly half of which made it into the finished film), the Joker attacks Batman with a bell and almost knocks him off the belfry parapet. The Joker then tries to hide in the shadows while he waits for his helicopter to arrive, but Batman sneaks up on him and handcuffs the two of them together. Joker sprays acid on the handcuffs, and he and Batman fight while they wait for the cuffs to melt. The Joker breaks free, picks up a wooden 2 by 4 and uses it to beat Batman into submission. The Joker then makes a dash for the helicopter ladder while Bruce activates a sonic device on his utility belt (a possible Year One reference, since this draft was written after that story's publication). This rouses the bats nesting in the belfry so that they swarm around the Joker as he dangles from the ladder. Batman grabs hold of the Joker and following a brief struggle next to a gargoyle they both fall towards the city streets below. Batman saves himself using his grapple gun while the Joker plummets to his death.

This was then followed by the scene where Knox is found on the cathedral steps beneath Batman's cape, which was apparently filmed but cut from the movie.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4d7F8q5H/knox-deleted-scene.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MH13wBgW/knox-cape-comic.png)

What's interesting about Skaaren's draft is that although it differs from the finished film, it features most of the sets and props used in the final sequence: the belfry set with the trapdoor, parapet and broken wooden boards; the gargoyle, the helicopter with the rope ladder, the Joker's acid flower, Batman's grapple gun. All that's missing in the finished movie is the swarm of bats and the handcuffs.

As for Nicholson and Peters wanting the ending changed, perhaps it was their idea to incorporate Vicki into the belfry sequence?

Thanks for the detailed response! There's also another quote that led me to believe that 89 Batman was based on those early comics. On the DVD documentary for the film Hamm states "The idea that interested us the most was to go back to the original Bob Kane notion, and we thought that that was the version that would give us sort of the most antre to the story which we wanted to tell, to go kind of dark mysterioso myth, that we could also say that we're going back to the roots of the character, you know, were kind of peeling away all the detours the character's taken over the years and trying to zero in on what this original concept was." That makes it pretty clear to me that this was a project that was intended to get back to the roots of the character. When taken as that certain character decisions make a lot more sense. Batman in the 89 film kills and uses guns because that's how the character was in that first year. The same goes for the lack of a relationship between Gordon and Batman.

In a way the film is an amalgamation of all the different eras of Batman up until the late 80's. The Batman character is meant to be Kane/Fingers original vision for the character. The Jokers scheme is a nod to Dennis O'Neil, and they include the Corto Maltese/Martha's pearls which is a nod to Frank Miller.

Good to hear about the Belfrey sequence. I know some have criticized it as being tacked on specifically because of the whole Nicholson/Peters opera story. I've never had a problem with it personally. I like that the Cathedral is set up at the beginning of the film with Batman atop of it, and then it comes back for the climatic fight at the end. It feels like the film has come full circle in that regard. Also, I think Batman stopping the Joker with the gadget in the film is better than the bats attacking him.

I agree, the cathedral thing never bothered me as a kid. I wouldn't have been able to put it this way as a kid but I like how operatic it is. Obviously Elfman's music is a key ingredient to that.

I also like how the movie builds up to it. It begins with Batman on a rooftop high above the city taking out the thugs. It's a good introductory moment for Batman but it's also a pretty impersonal situation for him. He's probably done that sort of thing dozens of times before the movie begins.

The movie ends with Batman in a cathedral high above the city taking out the Joker's thugs and, finally, the Joker himself. It's a good climax for Batman because it's so intensely personal for him. By that stage in the film, Burton had gradually built up the operatic largesse that the cathedral sequence pays off. Batman and the Joker were on a collision course and it's impossible to make their final showdown too big, too grand, too ambitious, too grandiose.

Vicki needed to be there to give whatever's left of Bruce Wayne a personal stake in defeating the Joker. Vengeance is driving Batman at that point but so is love -- or something comparable to it.

Silver really is the GOAT when it comes to research. Reading through the drafts shows just how different things could've been. I'm thankful the finished film is what it is, because in all respects it's better. Batman is weakened but not near death or suicidal, giving us those goon encounters on top of a Joker scene. It allows Batman to be purely heroic, and I think that's what the sequence needed. Unmasking also seems counterproductive, as they made each other into the costumed characters they resemble in the scene.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Fri, 29 Nov  2019, 04:09There's also another quote that led me to believe that 89 Batman was based on those early comics. On the DVD documentary for the film Hamm states "The idea that interested us the most was to go back to the original Bob Kane notion, and we thought that that was the version that would give us sort of the most antre to the story which we wanted to tell, to go kind of dark mysterioso myth, that we could also say that we're going back to the roots of the character, you know, were kind of peeling away all the detours the character's taken over the years and trying to zero in on what this original concept was." That makes it pretty clear to me that this was a project that was intended to get back to the roots of the character.

That would be an excellent quote to include if we ever update the Batman '89 comic influences feature.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 29 Nov  2019, 15:09I'm thankful the finished film is what it is, because in all respects it's better. Batman is weakened but not near death or suicidal, giving us those goon encounters on top of a Joker scene. It allows Batman to be purely heroic, and I think that's what the sequence needed. Unmasking also seems counterproductive, as they made each other into the costumed characters they resemble in the scene.

Agreed. The finale in the finished film improves on the scripted versions in every way. It adds more humour, it adds more action, and it elevates Batman's motivation above simple revenge by adding Vicki to the mix. It's one of my favourite scenes in the entire film, and the cathedral set is probably my favourite location in the 1989 Gotham.

Returning to the subject of comic influences, I always assumed the mirror scene in the 1989 movie was based on the moment from The Killing Joke where the Joker sees his reflection for the first time and starts laughing maniacally. There's also a similar scene in 'The Man Behind the Red Hood!'


But in light of Hamm's quote about his Joker being influenced by the comic book Two-Face, it seems more likely that this scene was inspired by the following panels from 'The Crimes of Two-Face' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #66, August 1942).


There's a scene later in the story where Two-Face is looking in another mirror, which he then smashes.


The mirror scene in the finished film is pretty much identical to the scene as Hamm wrote it in his 1986 script, except that in the screenplay the doctor suggests the possibility of reconstructive surgery. Note that the doctor also mentions reconstructive surgery in one of the above comic panels from Detective Comics Vol 1 #66.

Something I've been meaning to post about for a while now is the origin of the plot twist about the Joker killing Batman's parents. More specifically, I wanted to address the question of who first came up with the idea. I've mentioned in other threads that the Joker/Jack Napier has been depicted as the killer of Batman's parents in Elseworlds stories such as Batman: Dark Joker the Wild (1994) and Batman: Detective No. 27 (2003). But was the 1989 movie the first story to feature this twist? Who thought of it first? And does it have a precedent in the comics?

In his interview with Comics Scene #14 (August 1990), screenwriter Warren Skaaren claims that he was the one who came up with the idea of the Joker killing Thomas and Martha Wayne:


It's certainly true that this plot point was not present in Sam Hamm's 1986 draft, but apparently it was present in an even earlier treatment – one written by none other than Tim Burton and Julie Hickson. I haven't read this treatment myself (dated October 21st 1985), but according to BatmAngelus's report it features the Joker killing Thomas and Martha Wayne during a drive-by shooting involving an ice cream van.

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2010/7/25/analysis-of-the-1985-burton-hickson-treatment

The earlier 1983 Tom Mankiewicz script has the Joker witness the Waynes' murder through a window, but still retains Joe Chill as the one who actually kills them. So does this mean that Burton and Hickson were the first writers to come up with the idea of the Joker killing Batman's parents?

Actually, no. Believe it or not, the earliest story to depict the Joker killing Batman's parents is a Silver Age comic written by Jim Shooter. Granted, the Batman in this story is not Bruce Wayne, but the issue nevertheless serves as a precedent to the revenge angle in the 1989 film.

The comic in question is 'The Danger of the Deadly Duo!' (World's Finest Vol 1 #166, May 1967) and it takes place in Earth-One's future, where Bruce's direct descendent, Bron Wayn E7705, becomes the newest in a long line of Batmen in order to avenge his parents after they're murdered by the Joker (who is a direct descendent of the original Joker).


Once again I should stress that the Batman in this story is not Bruce Wayne, but his descendent living in the 30th century. Even so, this comic is the earliest story to present a version of Batman who specifically adopts the cape and cowl in order to take revenge against a Joker who murdered his mother and father. And it predates the first Tim Burton movie by over two decades. So next time someone complains about this aspect of the Burton lore, just point out that Jim Shooter did it first in the Silver Age comics.

While I'm bumping this thread, I might as well add a few minor things. All of these comics date from the Golden Age.

'The Case of the Three Devils' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #50, April 1941) climaxes with a fight in a bell tower that visually resembles the movie's finale.


'Crime's Cameraman!' (World's Finest Vol 1 #21, March 1946) features a scene where Batman steals the film from the camera of a photographer who takes his picture, though not for the same reason he steals Vicki's film in the movie.


And finally, here's a straightforward visual comparison with the Joker wearing sunglasses in 'The Joker's Crime Costumes!' (Batman Vol 1 #63, February 1951).


Before I end this post, I wanted to mention a page on Deviant Art where a user named FreakTerrorizes has compiled an extensive list of quotes relating to the comic book influences on Burton's Batman. This person has dug up far more quotes on the subject than I ever did and they deserve massive props for their research. You can view a full list of the quotes they've gathered here:

https://www.deviantart.com/freakterrorizes/art/Tim-Burton-s-Comic-Book-Research-Favorite-Comic-751360456

For now I'd like to highlight just a few of these. Firstly, here's another quote confirming that the opening scene of the 1989 movie was inspired by 'Night of the Stalker!' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #439, March 1974).

QuoteOver three lunch meetings, Uslan loaned Burton a stack of comic books, including a photocopy of Batman #1, which introduced The Joker and Catwoman; Detective Comics #217, during which Robin goes to college, and Batman moves into a Gotham City penthouse to become a lone crusader; and #251, The Joker's reappearance as a much darker super-villain. "Just as important as what I gave him was what I kept away from him," Uslan says. "I didn't want him to see the campy and ridiculous stuff." Out of his personal collection, Uslan also shared with Burton his all-time favorite Batman story, from Detective Comics #439: "Night of the Stalker." It would become the basis for the opening scene of Burton's movie.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/07/how-the-dark-knight-became-dark-again/259923/

And here are some quotes where Michael Keaton directly cites Frank Miller as an influence on the characterisation of his Batman.

Quote"Conversations with Tim [Burton]. We saw it exactly the same way. Some of it was baked in already because he was doing the Frank Miller Batman. We both understood it was the Frank Miller version of Batman, I told him how I saw it. He kept nodding and said, 'that's it....'"

https://deadline.com/2016/12/michael-keaton-ray-kroc-mcdonalds-the-founder-interview-1201866996/

Quote"This was gutsy on his part, Tim said 'I'm doing Batman. Would you read the script?' I wasn't familiar with the comic, but here's what he did, he said, 'read this one', which was the Frank Miller thing, which was Dark Knight Returns. And I went, 'Whoa, this is interesting.' The look of it and the colors. So I went and read it and I though, 'This ain't gonna work.' But everything I said Tim kept nodding. 'He's ridiculously depressed. He's a vigilante. He's got this issue.' It was just so obvious what it is. I thought this is interesting as an actor but nobody is gonna make that. And then he goes, 'Yup, that's what I wanna do. That's exactly what I wanna do.' And I thought, 'Oh, really? Oh, dude.' And I said 'Okay.' He had such a clear take on it."

https://beta.prx.org/stories/97517

The link doesn't work for this next one, but here's the quote:

QuoteIn Inside Hollywood magazine [August 1992] Michael Keaton was asked, "Were you a fan of the Batman comic books?" Michael Keaton explained, "I like the new version, the Dark Knight series [by Frank Miller], which portrays Batman as a depressed and repressed person. I played him that way..."

Once again, credit for researching these quotes must go to the Deviant Art user FreakTerrorizes.

Silver seriously thank you for all the work you've done on this thread.

Thanks for the DeviantArt link. It always upsets me whenever people try to dismiss Burton's work on this film by saying he never read a comic book. First off it's ridiculous to think that WB would let a filmmaker make the most expensive movie ever made at that time without doing proper research. Second, there are so many sequences in the 89 film that feel like they're ripped straight from the comics that I don't know how anyone can say that he didn't read any of the comics before filming. Unfortunately it all stems from that stupid quote Burton said in response to Kevin Smith over Planet of the Apes. People have taken that quote and ran with it in a way that's so unfair to everything Burton did with the original Batman film.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 29 Nov  2019, 15:09
Silver really is the GOAT when it comes to research.

No argument heard here. That's for damn sure.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon,  2 Dec  2019, 22:18
Returning to the subject of comic influences, I always assumed the mirror scene in the 1989 movie was based on the moment from The Killing Joke where the Joker sees his reflection for the first time and starts laughing maniacally. There's also a similar scene in 'The Man Behind the Red Hood!'

But in light of Hamm's quote about his Joker being influenced by the comic book Two-Face, it seems more likely that this scene was inspired by the following panels from 'The Crimes of Two-Face' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #66, August 1942).

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRdGqX3K/dc66a.png)

There's a scene later in the story where Two-Face is looking in another mirror, which he then smashes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4dBKxzfj/dc66b.png)

The mirror scene in the finished film is pretty much identical to the scene as Hamm wrote it in his 1986 script, except that in the screenplay the doctor suggests the possibility of reconstructive surgery. Note that the doctor also mentions reconstructive surgery in one of the above comic panels from Detective Comics Vol 1 #66.

Yeah, I was trying to think exactly what inspiration/influence Hamm took from Two-Face when I read that quote, and was perplexed, but the above panels certainly shed some light on it. Actually, it never would have occurred to me that Hamm cleverly merged Joker and Two-Face's depicted revelations to their "new" selves, but it works. Rather than going for a more faithful adaptation with Jack (perhaps) staggering to his apartment, getting a look in the mirror, and laughing manically; we essentially get that, but with some Detec #66 influences to beef it up a bit (bandages, mirror, ect). Which I am personally thankful for, and prefer overall. As it remains, for my money, a favorite scene out of any cinematic Joker depictions to this day.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu,  5 Dec  2019, 05:19
Silver seriously thank you for all the work you've done on this thread.

You're very welcome, friend. :) I'm glad others besides myself are still interested in this subject.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu,  5 Dec  2019, 05:19Thanks for the DeviantArt link. It always upsets me whenever people try to dismiss Burton's work on this film by saying he never read a comic book. First off it's ridiculous to think that WB would let a filmmaker make the most expensive movie ever made at that time without doing proper research. Second, there are so many sequences in the 89 film that feel like they're ripped straight from the comics that I don't know how anyone can say that he didn't read any of the comics before filming. Unfortunately it all stems from that stupid quote Burton said in response to Kevin Smith over Planet of the Apes. People have taken that quote and ran with it in a way that's so unfair to everything Burton did with the original Batman film.

It is a pity that Kevin Smith quote keeps resurfacing. I've no doubt that Burton is not the kind of guy who typically collects and reads comic books, but that doesn't mean he didn't familiarise himself with the source material when prepping his film adaptation. David Goyer has stated that Chris Nolan wasn't a comic reader either when he began work on Batman Begins. But like Burton, Nolan was equipped with the source material and did his research. According to Goyer:

Quote"Chris had never read comic books. He didn't know the world. So he trusted me on that franchise and with Superman to know what was canon: what could be changed and what couldn't be changed.

"Early in Batman Begins he said, 'Does he have to have a utility belt?', and I said, 'Yes'. And he said, 'Why?' And then he showed me a design and it was all black. And I said, 'It has to be yellow', and he said, 'Oh...'

"I identified the ten things that remained sticky about Batman and Superman. Wrote them up and said to Chris, 'These are the ten things that should be in the movie. Like the Ten Commandments. As long as we honour that, we'll be good'."

https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a518055/christopher-nolan-didnt-know-batman-world-says-david-s-goyer/

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  6 Dec  2019, 07:40Yeah, I was trying to think exactly what inspiration/influence Hamm took from Two-Face when I read that quote, and was perplexed, but the above panels certainly shed some light on it. Actually, it never would have occurred to me that Hamm cleverly merged Joker and Two-Face's depicted revelations to their "new" selves, but it works. Rather than going for a more faithful adaptation with Jack (perhaps) staggering to his apartment, getting a look in the mirror, and laughing manically; we essentially get that, but with some Detec #66 influences to beef it up a bit (bandages, mirror, ect). Which I am personally thankful for, and prefer overall. As it remains, for my money, a favorite scene out of any cinematic Joker depictions to this day.

The mirror scene is certainly one of the Joker's most iconic cinematic moments.



Another possible tie between Hamm's Joker and the comic book Two-Face is the character of Alicia. Years ago I wrote something about how Alicia was likely based on the comic book character Circe, who was the girlfriend of Roman Sionis before he disfigured her. In case anyone needs a refresher, here's the thread: https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=2026.

One thing I didn't mention in that discussion is that Circe formed an alliance with Two-Face during her second storyline, which ran from Detective Comics Vol 1 #563-564 and Batman Vol 1 #397-398 (June-August 1986). It's later revealed that Circe is secretly working with Batman and only entered into the alliance with Two-Face as part of a larger scheme. But nevertheless, we get to see the two characters bond over their respective disfigurements.


One of the issues in this storyline, Detective Comics #563, features the following flashback:


Detective Comics #564 contains a scene where Two-Face confronts Batman in a brewery that visually foreshadows the cinematic confrontation in Axis Chemicals. Only this sequence ends with Batman falling into a large vat rather than his enemy.


The last time Two-Face and Circe are seen together in the final issue of this arc – Batman #398 – is after they break into a museum together. This somewhat foreshadows the Joker's raid on the Flugelheim in the 1989 film, for which Alicia was also present. It's after this sequence that Two-Face turns on Circe and tries to kill her.


Luckily Batman, Robin and Catwoman show up to save her. The story ends with Circe mysteriously vanishing and leaving behind her broken mask.


Circe would later show up in one final storyline involving Black Mask, but that was published after the 1989 film and Two-Face wasn't involved.

Just to reiterate, Hamm's Batman script is dated October 1986, while the storyline featuring the alliance between Circe and Two-Face was published between June and August of 1986. In other words, this particular arc was the main storyline in both Batman and Detective Comics at the exact time Sam Hamm would have been writing his draft of the film script. Coincidence?

This is really impressive. The Two-Face aspect has opened up a whole new line of inquiry regarding B89 and it all checks out. If the Joker is bleached I want to see the aftermath of that bleaching because disfigurement isn't unique to only one character in the Batman universe. It's all about how each character reacts to their own new circumstances. Duality is always a lingering issue with Batman and his villains, especially in the case of Napier. Alicia is an echo of his former life, and the mask makes her into someone entirely new. Good stuff, Silver.

It seems Steve Englehart is unhappy with Sam Hamm's quote about not taking much influence from his Detective Comics run. Englehart has responded with a detailed account of his involvement in the 1989 film, which he has written for Back Issue #118. I won't transcribe the entire article here, as it's far too lengthy, but you can read it on 13thDimension.com: https://13thdimension.com/inside-look-steve-englehart-details-his-uncredited-work-on-batman-89/

Does anybody have the quote from Tim Burton where he explains his reasoning for making Joker the killer of Bruce's parents?

Does anybody know if Bruce placing the roses in crime alley had a precedent in the comics prior to the film?

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Tue, 28 Jan  2020, 08:47
Does anybody have the quote from Tim Burton where he explains his reasoning for making Joker the killer of Bruce's parents?

Can't believe I never responded to this. Bluntly, no, I'm not aware of Burton ever explaining why he set the Joker up as the killer.

Even so, I see two separate agendas going on here.

First, it's basic storytelling for film. The hero's crusade needs to have a personal edge to it that ties back to his origin. In B89, Batman is out to take down the Joker. But (cue dramatic music) the Joker is the real reason he became Batman in the first place. The idea of a faceless nobody killing the Waynes is great in episodic media like comics but it doesn't play as well in feature film. The hero's quest usually needs to be connected to his origin. The hero's journey or something. This is one reason Sam Hamm might've wanted to do it.

Second, there's the more obvious issue that Jack Nicholson played the Joker. Considering his star power at the time, it makes a fair amount of sense to give him additional screen time and dramatic weight. Homeboy was getting top billing in the film so amplifying his importance makes a certain amount of business and publicity sense. This is one reason Peter Guber and John Peters might've wanted to do it.

Either, both or none of those could be true. Me, I tend to think that Hamm likely made the decision rather than Burton.

I have no problem with Nicholson killing the Waynes in B89. I'm open to a variety of different takes, and that includes the newer trend that the Tellatale games started, and THE BATMAN may continue, which gives the Wayne family a shady background. But in terms of their murder, I generally prefer Joe Chill or some other gangster doing the deed.

I think the issue for me is more about Chill's ultimate fate. Does he remain an elusive figure that Batman hopes to see out on the street one night so he can claim revenge? Or does Chill get killed ala Nolan's depiction in Begins? I prefer the former. Chill forever remains a boogeyman in the mind of a child frozen in time. He remains an idea and a ghostly representation of all the criminals Batman encounters. 

Talking about their murder, it compels me to raise what Batfleck says in BvS: "I'm now older than my father ever was." That line hit me hard. Do you know how much of a mindf*** it is? The child almost feels guilty when they eclipse their parent's age. As a child you see your parent as big and responsible, and to think "that's meant to be me now." 

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 23 Sep  2020, 05:00

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Tue, 28 Jan  2020, 08:47
Does anybody have the quote from Tim Burton where he explains his reasoning for making Joker the killer of Bruce's parents?

Can't believe I never responded to this. Bluntly, no, I'm not aware of Burton ever explaining why he set the Joker up as the killer.

Even so, I see two separate agendas going on here.

First, it's basic storytelling for film. The hero's crusade needs to have a personal edge to it that ties back to his origin. In B89, Batman is out to take down the Joker. But (cue dramatic music) the Joker is the real reason he became Batman in the first place. The idea of a faceless nobody killing the Waynes is great in episodic media like comics but it doesn't play as well in feature film. The hero's quest usually needs to be connected to his origin. The hero's journey or something. This is one reason Sam Hamm might've wanted to do it.

Second, there's the more obvious issue that Jack Nicholson played the Joker. Considering his star power at the time, it makes a fair amount of sense to give him additional screen time and dramatic weight. Homeboy was getting top billing in the film so amplifying his importance makes a certain amount of business and publicity sense. This is one reason Peter Guber and John Peters might've wanted to do it.

Either, both or none of those could be true. Me, I tend to think that Hamm likely made the decision rather than Burton.

Hey thanks for your explanation on that question. However, I've read an actual quote from Burton explaining why he chose to go that route. It was definitely something that Burton wanted. In the 3 part doc on the DVD Hamm makes it very clear that he didn't write that in his script at all. I read something else where he said that he tried to talk Burton out of that idea for as long as possible, but since he wasn't on set during filming it got put in there.

For my own viewing, there's an observation that runs through the film suggesting that Batman & Joker are two sides of the same coin. That's an observation in both the 89 film and Returns. So I just see Batman and Joker being responsible for each other's creation as a sort of climax to that idea.

Beyond that I do like the concept of someone having a traumatic experience as a helpless child, and that evil coming back at them at a later point in life when they're in a position to fight it.

However, I do completely understand why some people hate that decision. I could take it or leave it personally. I would've preferred Joe Chill but that's just me.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Wed, 23 Sep  2020, 06:44

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 23 Sep  2020, 05:00

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Tue, 28 Jan  2020, 08:47
Does anybody have the quote from Tim Burton where he explains his reasoning for making Joker the killer of Bruce's parents?

Can't believe I never responded to this. Bluntly, no, I'm not aware of Burton ever explaining why he set the Joker up as the killer.

Even so, I see two separate agendas going on here.

First, it's basic storytelling for film. The hero's crusade needs to have a personal edge to it that ties back to his origin. In B89, Batman is out to take down the Joker. But (cue dramatic music) the Joker is the real reason he became Batman in the first place. The idea of a faceless nobody killing the Waynes is great in episodic media like comics but it doesn't play as well in feature film. The hero's quest usually needs to be connected to his origin. The hero's journey or something. This is one reason Sam Hamm might've wanted to do it.

Second, there's the more obvious issue that Jack Nicholson played the Joker. Considering his star power at the time, it makes a fair amount of sense to give him additional screen time and dramatic weight. Homeboy was getting top billing in the film so amplifying his importance makes a certain amount of business and publicity sense. This is one reason Peter Guber and John Peters might've wanted to do it.

Either, both or none of those could be true. Me, I tend to think that Hamm likely made the decision rather than Burton.

Hey thanks for your explanation on that question. However, I've read an actual quote from Burton explaining why he chose to go that route. It was definitely something that Burton wanted. In the 3 part doc on the DVD Hamm makes it very clear that he didn't write that in his script at all. I read something else where he said that he tried to talk Burton out of that idea for as long as possible, but since he wasn't on set during filming it got put in there.

For my own viewing, there's an observation that runs through the film suggesting that Batman & Joker are two sides of the same coin. That's an observation in both the 89 film and Returns. So I just see Batman and Joker being responsible for each other's creation as a sort of climax to that idea.

Beyond that I do like the concept of someone having a traumatic experience as a helpless child, and that evil coming back at them at a later point in life when they're in a position to fight it.

However, I do completely understand why some people hate that decision. I could take it or leave it personally. I would've preferred Joe Chill but that's just me.

Sam Hamm also went on record having a scathing opinion about the Joker plot twist from that interview you shared on the forum awhile ago.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi57.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg220%2Fsallah4life%2Fbatman%2Fcihamm8_zpsdec2339f.jpg&hash=ec654a8237c26b4b72bdb565b967db0a9078748b)

http://www.1989batman.com/2013/05/vintage-magazine-article-comics.html?m=1

I can see from a comic purist's point of view that having the Joker be responsible for Batman's existence may be bothersome. But A) all comic films have taken enormous liberties from the source material, B) B89 wouldn't be the only film where Bruce Wayne's destiny is actualised by a villain, and C) the film's ending is still much more interesting compared to what was originally scripted, and works as a standalone.

As for Hamm's argument that Batman can move on upon defeating the Joker, that might've been the case theoretically. But the films shows us otherwise. BR shows avenging his parents didn't quite give him much peace; if anything, his life is perhaps much more hollow than ever with his persistent war on crime, introversion and unable to maintain healthy romantic relationships. The Flash has the potential to further explore how Batman's life had been impacted within the last thirty odd years because of his habits.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Wed, 23 Sep  2020, 06:44
I would've preferred Joe Chill but that's just me.

I prefer the idea of the Wayne's killer remaining anonymous. It gives Batman that extra motivation to never quit and make him more determined. Although some stories where he confronts Chill are definitely worthwhile.

It has been mentioned before, but I've just read Steve Englehart's first work on Batman in Detective Comics #439 as part of a read through I'm doing and I had some thoughts. It is clear that "Night of the Stalker" is the inspiration for the opening scene of 89, but more interesting is Batman's sudden shift in characterization from being a guy to quips and yells his thoughts aloud to a silent figure who darkly looms as a spirit of vengeance. Whether or not this will be a permanent change, we'll see. I might just be that he was moved by the murders that occur that orphan a child in the beginning of the story. This clearly is where Burton and Co. got the idea to shut Batman up and keep the chatter to a minimum. Great issue. Hope this change is permanent. 

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 23 Sep  2020, 12:45
I prefer the idea of the Wayne's killer remaining anonymous. It gives Batman that extra motivation to never quit and make him more determined.

Ditto. I love B89 but in the main, I think the comics should go with the assumption that murderer's identity is unknown, and kind of irrelevant.

Because ultimately, GOTHAM CITY killed the Waynes. The actual triggerman's identity is incidental because that was never the point. The point is that the Waynes died in Gotham City whereas they would've lived healthy and whole lives in, say, Metropolis. Batman went to war on a culture more than a specific person.

I think people who say Batman would give up after apprehending the killer can't see the forest for the trees.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri,  5 Mar  2021, 15:20
It has been mentioned before, but I've just read Steve Englehart's first work on Batman in Detective Comics #439 as part of a read through I'm doing and I had some thoughts. It is clear that "Night of the Stalker" is the inspiration for the opening scene of 89, but more interesting is Batman's sudden shift in characterization from being a guy to quips and yells his thoughts aloud to a silent figure who darkly looms as a spirit of vengeance. Whether or not this will be a permanent change, we'll see. I might just be that he was moved by the murders that occur that orphan a child in the beginning of the story. This clearly is where Burton and Co. got the idea to shut Batman up and keep the chatter to a minimum. Great issue. Hope this change is permanent.

I know Uslan did give Burton that issue of the comics when he was researching the source material.

Bob Kane mentioned how he often drew Batman with a toothy grin from the 40s onwards to soften Batman's appearance, among other things to make him look less demonic.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hn_FMsoTkGY/maxresdefault.jpg)
(https://dorkforty.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/smiling-batman.jpg)
I know the image is from Returns, but there's still examples in Batman. Though it's worth mentioning that a smiling Batman was a conscious design decision by Bob Kane, and there's the possibility that it influenced Keaton as the only "smiling" Batman.

Quote from: Slash Man on Thu,  2 Sep  2021, 23:39
Bob Kane mentioned how he often drew Batman with a toothy grin from the 40s onwards to soften Batman's appearance, among other things to make him look less demonic.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hn_FMsoTkGY/maxresdefault.jpg)
(https://dorkforty.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/smiling-batman.jpg)
I know the image is from Returns, but there's still examples in Batman. Though it's worth mentioning that a smiling Batman was a conscious design decision by Bob Kane, and there's the possibility that it influenced Keaton as the only "smiling" Batman.

I figured that this more sinister smile from Burton's Batman was from Frank Miller's depiction. The genuinely smiling Bob Kane Batman I felt wasn't achieved until Batman Forever when Batman saved Robin from plunging into the bottom of the Riddler's pit.

Here's me getting nitpicky.

QuoteBruce first sees the Joker in action when he murders Vinnie Ricorso on the steps of City Hall. The Joker's outfit here is different from his trademark purple costume. Instead it resembles the suit he wears on Jim Aparo's cover art for Batman #429 (January 1989), which was part of the Death in the Family story arc.

(https://www.batman-online.com/features/1346116021_blacktux.png)

Shooting for B89 wrapped in February 1989. The cover image of Diplomat Joker is cover dated January 1989. It was most likely on retail shelves in December 1988 and comic book store shelves in November 1988. Presumably, it was draw maybe in June or July 1988.

Bottom line, I think it's unlikely that Top Hat Joker in B89 is somehow influenced by Diplomat Joker on the cover of Batman #429. It seems like a truly bizarre coincidence to me.

Yeah, unless they'd been given an extremely advanced preview of Mignola's cover art then that couldn't have been a conscious reference. We listed some other things from comics published after the movie, such as the Francis Bacon reference in JLA: The Nail or the Joker quoting the Wicked Witch of the West in a 2005 issue, as a way of highlighting parallels between the cinematic and literary versions of the character. As if to say this is the sort of thing the comic book Joker would have said or done, thereby illustrating the film's consistency with the source material. We tried to make it clear in the text when we were doing this, as opposed to highlighting something that we thought was consciously referenced from the comics. But it is a striking coincidence that the comic book Joker wore such a similar outfit so soon after filming had wrapped on the movie.

This is actually the opposite where the film influenced the comic which should probably be its own thread on here. Anyway I was reading Legends of the Dark Knight 52 which came out in 1993. I was surprised to see that they incorporated the 89 Batarang.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/FlLW35jbzE2dh3r0HTzgZpKmHBnXM8598WrdovQ-7jTUAo9G8lX_yoxbWqcZeQA_j6YkNOPnVOXI=s1600)

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu, 31 Mar  2022, 01:35
This is actually the opposite where the film influenced the comic which should probably be its own thread on here.

Here's the thread for movie references in the comics: https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=706.0

I don't think this particular reference to the 89 Batarang had been noted in that discussion, so good job spotting it.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 31 Mar  2022, 09:01

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Thu, 31 Mar  2022, 01:35
This is actually the opposite where the film influenced the comic which should probably be its own thread on here.

Here's the thread for movie references in the comics: https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=706.0

I don't think this particular reference to the 89 Batarang had been noted in that discussion, so good job spotting it.

Thanks, I'll post it over there as well.