Batman-Online.com

Entire feature here

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2009/1/2/possible-influences-of-comics-on-tim-burtons-batman-returns

You forgot to mention The Penguin's connection to Killer Croc.

I'm not too familiar with Killer Croc, especially before 1992.  I didn't put that in because I didn't see much of a connection.  Sure, there are a couple similarities- both are deformed villains who hang out in the sewer.  I've also heard of Croc being associated with the circus, but I don't know if that came in before or after 1992.  If there is more, though, I'll be happy to hear it.  :)

I didn't mind putting in the connections with Rupert Thorne and The Killing Joke because those were definite influences on B89 that could've carried over, but I wanted to show how the film characters embodied their comic book counterparts, rather than other comic book characters, like Killer Croc, whom I'm not sure Burton was even familiar with.
Otherwise, I could just as easily draw a parallel between Nicholson's Joker origin and Marvel Comics's Jigsaw origin in the B89 influences thread, since both were vain mob men who lost the battle in their first encounter with a vigilante, fell from a great height, and had their faces disfigured, bringing out a psychopathic dark side that lead them to become said vigilante's greatest nemesis.

Thanks BatmAngelus.  It seems that there were some comic influences in BR, at least more than I thought, which was very little.

I just reread this again.  Even though its not my favorite Burton Batfilm, I still find the film interesting.  I've always had a mixed opinion about BR.  I want to love it as much as B89 because of Keaton/Burton/Elfman and a darker Batman, but I also want to hate it because it was too perverse (I mean all the sexual inuendos in the film) and it had more artistic influences rather than those from the source material (comics).  I often ask myself, why I own this film, but I can't get rid of it either.  I don't know, maybe with time I'll get what others think about this film, but this thread was a definite help.

Also, mods, I believe this thread deserves a sticky as well.  Last request, I promise ;)

I'm too lazy to scan it in but Batman #257 shows the Penguin eating raw fish.

Y'know, just for the folks who say he never did such a thing in the comics...

Entire feature here

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2012/8/1/possible-influences-of-comics-on-tim-burtons-batman-returns

Very nice, ZUPERZERO.  I didn't realize that one could argue that Returns did a faithful take on Detective Comics #28 as B89 did one on Detective Comics #27.
Perhaps if Burton did a third one, we'd see stuff from Detective Comics #29  ;)

If this keeps up, I'll have to reevaluate my opinion of BR ;)

"Perhaps if Burton did a third one, we'd see stuff from Detective Comics #29 "

one thing we can be (almost) sure is that Burton surely have use the 1rst frame from Detective comics 29 for his 1rst scene in his 3rd Batman movie, just like he use the 1rst frame from Detective comics #27 and 28 for Batman and Batman Returns 1rst scenes

Thanks for this, guys. I found it a really interesting in depth look at one of my favourite Batman films.

QuoteI'm too lazy to scan it in but Batman #257 shows the Penguin eating raw fish.

Y'know, just for the folks who say he never did such a thing in the comics...

don't worry thecolorsblend i scan it for you 

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.batmanmovieonline.com%2Fgallery%2F1217478839.jpg&hash=360b47980e1e59cfdd97c4b51009a30f242c551e)

Thank you kindly.

Entire feature here

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2012/8/1/possible-influences-of-comics-on-tim-burtons-batman-returns

AWESOME additions, ZUPERZERO and gregg  ;D

I have always been confused by The Man Who Laughs.

IMBD says it was filmed in Universal Studios, some of the cast sound german whilst others are westerners.

nice ideas going on up in here

Entire feature here

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2012/8/1/possible-influences-of-comics-on-tim-burtons-batman-returns

Hey nice find, some pretty cool stuff there.

I remember them tv shows from the Adam West Batman!!

this is great, Ive never seen someone post so many comic influences from BR, there are quite a few!

QuoteThis isn?t a comic book influence per se, but the plot about the Penguin attempting to become Mayor was inspired by two episodes of the old Adam West TV show: Hizzoner the Penguin and Dizzoner the Penguin.

Well, Burton is a fan of the 60's tv show.

These comic references are just fantastic. Really cool. Especially the cage, christmas present and penguins stuff.

WOW, excellent first post, Silver Nemesis.  The best was the penguins with explosives at the zoo.   :D

This kind of stuff really makes me appreciate Burton's Batman even more. If you look at it as the very, very first Batman - before his moral code, etc, it is fine.

That's the thing we never got a third movie and never got to see him grow, mabye he would have started to develop a moral code?, sadly we will never know...Yet another reason to hate JS >:(.

Quote from: Sandman on Tue, 30 Sep  2008, 03:56
That's the thing we never got a third movie and never got to see him grow, mabye he would have started to develop a moral code?, sadly we will never know...Yet another reason to hate JS >:(.

That's a cool thought. He begins a moral code in the third film.

I dont think Burton really payed attention to wether Batman had a moral code or not in the comics, its not like he was looking through Batman comics before filming started on 89 ( like Nolan did before filming BB), the only one that I know he liked and read was The Killing Joke.

Quote from: DarkVengeance on Sat,  4 Oct  2008, 00:22
I dont think Burton really payed attention to wether Batman had a moral code or not in the comics, its not like he was looking through Batman comics before filming started on 89 ( like Nolan did before filming BB), the only one that I know he liked and read was The Killing Joke.

Michael Uslan gave Burton the Steve Englehart/Marshall Rogers runs, the Neal Adams/Denny O'Neil runs (where Batman did not kill) and the first year of the Kane/Finger run (before the CCA, where Batman did kill) before production started.

It is true that he liked The Killing Joke the best.

Where did you get the info that he gave Burton those comics? Ive read pretty much everything and watched every documentary and have never heard that before.

Quote from: DarkVengeance on Sun,  5 Oct  2008, 02:32
Where did you get the info that he gave Burton those comics? Ive read pretty much everything and watched every documentary and have never heard that before.

Sam Hamm said in the B89 DVD that he and Burton based the story/character on the original Bob Kane/Bill Finger comics in 1939-40. I also read an interview at  http://www.batman-on-film.com/interview_muslan_1.html where Uslan said that he only showed Burton the comic books from 1939-40 and 1970's. The 70's comics were probably referenced for the look/tone and not necessarily that era's portrayal of the character. 

I read it in the SHH interview with Uslan.

I only read the last two posts in this thread. But did it not also say that in the end they just threw out all the comics and just went for it and wrote the script?

Quote from: Joker81 on Sun,  5 Oct  2008, 11:59
I only read the last two posts in this thread. But did it not also say that in the end they just threw out all the comics and just went for it and wrote the script?

With regard to the script - most likely.

So the comics become irrelevant at this stage?

No. It is my understanding that the characters, atmosphere and a couple of key plot devices were influenced from the comics.

The script and general plot (ie interaction of characters) were all original works.

(edited - I was talking about B89, but just noticed this was a Returns thread.  So the comics probably had very little influence on the movie!)

Quote from: raleagh on Sun,  5 Oct  2008, 13:36
No. It is my understanding that the characters, atmosphere and a couple of key plot devices were influenced from the comics.

The script and general plot (ie interaction of characters) were all original works.

(edited - I was talking about B89, but just noticed this was a Returns thread.  So the comics probably had very little influence on the movie!)

That's very true. I know that the Catwoman in Returns was more like her from the comics in the late 80's+ where she was portrayed as a renegade with a history of abuse who you can feel for, where as the more traditional Catwoman was a cat burglar and was just pure evil. I think Batman was still the 1939 one but I could be wrong. Tim Burton obviously didn't care for the traditional Penguin so he re-invented his character and story. I'm sure that Daniel Waters did some homework on the movie but I recall him saying on the DVD that he and Burton were not too concerned over the legacy of the comics and just wanted to make the movie.

To be honest thats one thing thats kind of bugged me about Catwoman in Returns. Is that she was created out of revenge. I never liked that. I feel like she should have originally been a cat burglar, like in the original comics.

I have added all the posts here into 1 feature on the main site

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58

Thanks to all contributors!

glad to find out your source, cause Ive never read any of theose interviews, too bad that could always be Hamm trying to cover his own butt. He always seems very protective when saying " the non-comic influences werent his ideas"!

http://www.superherohype.com/news/featuresnews.php?id=3367 about half way down

thanks and sorry I got confused it was Uslan not Hamm, my bad! good read

Quote from: Joker81 on Sun,  5 Oct  2008, 20:13
To be honest thats one thing thats kind of bugged me about Catwoman in Returns. Is that she was created out of revenge. I never liked that. I feel like she should have originally been a cat burglar, like in the original comics.

I know how you feel. A few years ago I bought some of the Batman archives by DC and became a Bat-fundamentalist so I still would like to have seen Sam Hamm's script made where she was a cat burglar. But I still love Burton's version like crazy. It's like wanting a Beagle for a pet but you get a mutt instead and you fall in love with it.

My two problems with the film are that Max Shreck uses the Penguin like a puppet and I think it should have been the other way around. My other problem with Returns was the whole circus gang/freak show thing. I thought that weakened the Penguin's image for me. I ended up fearing Max Shreck more than the Penguin. Then again Hamm's script hardly had the Penguin in it until the final act. You just have to forget about the legacy and get drawn into the movie which is not hard to do.

they kinda had the burglar element when she broke into Shreck's Dept. store and trashed the place then ended up blowing it up, it showed she definitly has some burglar styled skills.

Yeah but she wasnt breaking in to rob the store. She was breaking in to blow it up! All part of her vendetta against Schriek.

I would have liked to see her start off as a thief because her job wasnt paying the bills, then slowly be driven crazy as the movie went on.

Maybe they could of had her robbing Schrieks office as Catwoman, only for Schriek to walk and THEN drop her out the window - thus driving her insane and setting up the revenge subplot.

What bugged me as well was where did she get these martialarts skills from lol???

The circus cheapened the film for me, they were not that threatening.

I loved the Schreik character, one of the best villians! Shame we didnt see his full potential, because he was the MAIN villian in this movie for me. He manipulated everone around him for his own ends and own means. He was selfish and egotistical lol Brillaint. The Penguin and Catwoman were more to be pittied.

But dont be getting me wrong, I love Returns, one of my favourite sequels ever!

Burton didnt really care or not wether he got the correct comic elements of the character ( or the rest of them), he had his own vision on how he wanted all of the characters to be, thats why alot of things are very off from the characters comic book counterparts.

Thats why Batman Returns is not a "Batman Movie" its a Tim Burton movie with Batman characters in it.

Quote from: DarkVengeance on Wed,  8 Oct  2008, 23:37
its a Tim Burton movie with Batman characters in it.

That is exactly one of the reasons why I love it, and prefer it over 89. It is Burton 100 percent doing what he wants, everything Burtonised. He had a lot more control to do 'his thing' with Returns. He got the Batman atmosphere dead on.

Well me being a Batman fan is the reason I prefer 89, because it actually stays a little bit closer to the comics that I grew up on and loved so much.

Oh were you alive in 1940?

Quote from: Joker81 on Fri, 10 Oct  2008, 22:11
Oh were you alive in 1940?

No but Ive read probably atleast 20-30 batman comics from the 1940's. What do the 1940's have to do with anything, dont you have one clever comeback up your sleeve?....I guess not pal

Entire feature here

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2012/8/1/possible-influences-of-comics-on-tim-burtons-batman-returns

Entire feature here

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2012/8/1/possible-influences-of-comics-on-tim-burtons-batman-returns

these are some great comparisons, alot of work went into this.

Silver Nemesis, you've made my day.   :)

That last picture with Keaton's little smirk is spitting image of the TDKR picture. Jeeze, I've always found the Burton films to be quite comically pure, but even I'm getting a heck of a lesson from this stuff. Truly fabulous research!

Absolutely fantastic Silver Nemesis. Thank you so much for that.  The catwoman stuff is great.

Fantastic. A lot of hard work went into this. I never tire of reading Burton Bat film comic influences.

THIS IS GREAT!!! Good job man!!

My only problem is that its too bad that Burton didnt use any of these references obviously and theyre just from die hard fans that took the time to do it, thats a fact.

That's not a fact. No one here has met Burton, talked to him or even had the slightest bit todo with the movies. Untill it's said by him or confermed by someone who wrote it or worked on it, it remains YOUR opinion.

The only fact is that it is a mighty impressive list of comparisons.

Indeed. It doesn't matter if you are told straight up or you find them by researching - the fact is that the are there.

Even if they didn't consciously use some of the comics for reference, at least they knew the chemistry of the characters and how they would behave.

Quote from: DarkVengeance on Tue, 18 Nov  2008, 21:18
My only problem is that its too bad that Burton didnt use any of these references obviously and theyre just from die hard fans that took the time to do it, thats a fact.

The Fact that there is such an impressive list of comparisons makes it ludicrous to suggest that Burton and/or those involved the creative aspects of the film didn't purposefully use any of those presented. Obviously no one can prove one way or the other, but to claim outright coincidence in every comparison is more than far fetched, its angry fanboyism. Presented with the BB and/or TDK threads of this nature, I'm sure you?d proclaim loudly and proudly how they nailed everything and how NolanGod expressed each comparison purposefully.

The only reason I know they used exact references is because they gave what references they used, and in the se of BB on dvd it came with a comic with parts of different comics and graphic novels they used for influence on their story. They also mention the references on the extras on the dvd itself.

You guys can say its only my opinion, thats fine with me, all I know is Burton never mentioned any "DIRECT" references he used for either of his batman films (neither did Schumacher). Yet again people bring up my love for Nolan as if its anymore than my love for Burton, and yet again your WRONG, I will always love both equally, Im just stating from my knowledge what I see.

Can anyone say where on the SE versions of the Burton films where they ever once mention any comic of graphic novel reference other than "The Killing Joke" if you have, that you have one up on me, cause Ive watched those dvd extras in and out and never saw anything, thats probably because they didnt mention anything. Burton didnt need any comic references to make his batman films, he did what he wanted with his own vision (that yet again I AM NOT BASHING) and I am just stating what I see. This list of comparisons is amazing, and I commend someone for doing so much work that I did also enjoy, but Burton didnt do the same, and its quite obvious, he didnt have the time to do that, he had enough pressure when making 89 he had his vision and went with it.

Anyone that watches BR can see that Burton did not concern himself with the comics at all, and Daniel Waters flat out states that on the SE extras for BR. Burton had his vision, went with it, and thats what film we got. Im not saying I dont like the film because its not comic accurate at all, but when Tim Burton flat out says "Anyone that knows me, knows that I would not read a comic book" that pretty much says it all. It dosent make me love the film any less, I just compare how truly comic accuarate something was (set out to make not compared more than 10 years later by fans attempting to find the comic references), than other comic book films with PURPOSELY DIRECT references to specific comics in a specific era, or a graphic novel.

It seems everytime someone has something to say about Burtons films wether they love them or not they're automatically a "raging fanboy" or the ridiculous "Nolanite", it just makes me laugh because someone that can love two different things equally and still critique them, is a much more open minded person than someone, who automatically has a specific term or name for that such person, overall it makes everyone seem pretty ignorant, just because someone dosent praise every single thing a specific director has done with one specific film. Im allowed to critique things I love, nothing is perfect, and thats what makes it so great for me.

In terms of what people behind these films said they read:
On the '89 SE DVD, Danny Elfman mentions reading The Dark Knight Returns to set the tone and I believe the producers do mention wanting to bring the character back to his roots from the 1939 comics and showing shots from those comics. 
There are citations on Benjamin Robinson's thesis of behind-the-scenes articles where the '39 comics were mentioned, though I'd have to check the paper again to be sure.  I believe Uslan himself said in an interview that he gave them to Burton to read.
http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=1

Michael Keaton also mentions reading TDKR in Les Daniels's Complete History of Batman book. 
The introduction to The Greatest Batman Stories Ever Told Vol. 1 with the Alex Ross cover also cites Englehart's "Night of the Stalker" as a comic Uslan gave to Burton to read.
Uslan has also cited Steve Englehart's run as influential and even let Englehart write two treatments for the film.

In terms of Batman Returns and the comics...well, there's a reason why I titled this "Batman Returns and the Comics" rather than the others "Influences of Batman (1989)," etc.  It is well documented in articles, as well as Robinson's thesis essay, that Burton and company wanted to pursue their own vision. 

However, these are the same people who read those comics that influenced B89 and there are also similarities between those comics and Batman Returns.  How could I resist?

Am I saying that those comics- the 1939 ones, TDKR, The Killing Joke, Englehart's ones- trickled down, in influence, from B89 to BR? 
Not necessarily.  Those presented in here are possibilities, as stated.

I think it's also possible that a director and writer can come across something that was done in a comic they've never read.

But of course, I think we all agree- intentional or not, it doesn't make us like the films any less.  :)

Batmangelus, I agree with everything you stated, and I was 100% targeting BR and not 89, cause I know from plenty of sources that Burton was handed material from the comics and graphic novels for that film.

Yet again this reason does not make me like BR any less than any of the other bat-films, but bringing up references now more than 10 years later does not mean that Burton and co. actually used them, because its pretty evident they did not use any specific references.

Quote from: DarkVengeance on Wed, 19 Nov  2008, 18:42
I was 100% targeting BR and not 89, cause I know from plenty of sources that Burton was handed material from the comics and graphic novels for that film.

Perfectly understood.
To be fair, though, you did ask about mentions on the SEs of "the Burton films" about comic book references.

Plus, I felt like citing sources in case they weren't previously mentioned, haha.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 19 Nov  2008, 19:19

Quote from: DarkVengeance on Wed, 19 Nov  2008, 18:42
I was 100% targeting BR and not 89, cause I know from plenty of sources that Burton was handed material from the comics and graphic novels for that film.

Perfectly understood.
To be fair, though, you did ask about mentions on the SEs of "the Burton films" about comic book references.

Plus, I felt like citing sources in case they weren't previously mentioned, haha.

Well I said I might have missed something and if so, someone has the upper hand on me, regardless of how many times I watch something, I always do miss something, so when I stand corrected I bow to whoever sets me right.

I'm bumping this to request that the Batman Returns feature on the website be updated with Silver Nemesis's latest posts  ;D.

I will get right on it - .........tomorrow  ;D

In rereading all of the posts with comparisons, I see the characters in the film now as (intentionally or not) being a modernized update on their Golden Age incarnations, with a mix of some of the then-recent comics of The Dark Knight Returns and Her Sister's Keeper.

And yes, I'm bumping this again for the same request.  Sorry to keep bothering you about it, raleagh, since it's a lot to add to the original feature, but it certainly helps strengthen the argument that although Burton may not have intended to follow the comics religiously, he wasn't too far off. 

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue, 23 Dec  2008, 20:35And yes, I'm bumping this again for the same request.  Sorry to keep bothering you about it, raleagh

Don't apolgise, I'm sorry I haven't done it yet.

It's been hectic here lately.

Although most of them aren't intentional in the typical sense (like Zack Snyder striving for direct recreation), it's clear that Burton has the exact same sensibilities as the people who work on Batman. That, for Batman Returns at least, more than proves his worthiness as a Batman director.

I think the references on B89 are quite intentional (to a point, he didn't try to replicate things exactly, but the '39 comics, TKJ and TDKR were definitely on his mind when he made B89). BR are much more coincidental, but I've always said that Burton was absolutely the best guy for Batman we've ever had. Nolan is fine as well, but I think that although both have the taste and sensibilities for the unusual, Burton's got the more Batmanian touch of the bizarre, and his background as an artist makes his films much more visually iconic (Like a comic book), as far as I'm concerned.

Burton is known to appreciate the absurdity of Batman (Not in a comedic sense, but it's the same absurdity that makes a comedy Batman work well). The grandiose, the comic booky. He's not afraid to be fantastic and lavish, but not in the "comics are silly" sense (that was Schumacher), but in the reverent "comics can have anything happen" sense.

Although the similarities in BR are mostly coincidental, I appreciate them on the same level as intentional references. Because of how Batmanian they end up being, it just goes to show that the guy just knows how to make a Batman movie. I don't think any lucid person can deny that it's very much a Batman movie. Not particularly representative of the modern era, but undeniably Batman, just as the 1960s series is undeniably Batman. It's comforting to know that no matter how "Burtonian" BR may be, it's still very much a Batman flick, if for nothing else, the deep subtext and psychology.

You can complain about a vicious, Sex-crazed Penguin any day. You can complain about Batman killing thugs, but below that surface of inaccuracy, it's all making a point about the psychology of the character. It's no different than a writer taking the monthly comic in a bold new direction. I would die for Burton to get a run on the monthly book (or a graphic novel) over a third film any day. There, his sensibilities would most likely be welcomed by Batfans, as opposed to hated. Just let him draw and co-write. It would be better than a third film if you ask me.

I even submit that BR would have been better if Waters/Strick hadn't gone so overboard. Burton would have settled for a script that hit his required notes, but left the sex-crazed and unnecessarily vicious Penguin on the cutting room floor. It was the major themes/ideas, not the specifics that hooked Burton. He liked what the other guys came up with, it's not like Burton was hell bent on being inaccurate (something which a lot of fans seem to think). The guys suggested things and he liked them. We could have easily gotten a Batman who didn't kill (but mortally wounded, probably) if the writers hadn't come up with it.

Burton isn't burdoned by being a rabid fanboy (and neither is Nolan). When you try to please everybody, you will fail. Fanboys can't make a good movie I feel, because they don't have a finger on what makes films work for the general populace. Most fan films feel like you're missing some vital piece of info. It's because it's made for the specific. It's not as accessable as it should be. I'm not going to get a reference to panel #13 on page 23 of Batman #256. My knowledge isn't that encyclopedic. I have a life.

Something specific like adaptation of a graphic novel (Watchmen, 300, DKR) is different, as that isn't as broad as just the monthly series. That's why I didn't dig David Goyer's work on BB. He's too much of a fanboy and his dialogue coumes off as stiff and unrealistic sounding, no matter how good the performance is giving it. His stuff sounds like what a geek assumes real people sound like. No particular insult intended toward the man, but that's how I feel.

A lot of people feel the same way about Mark Steven Johnson's work on DD and Ghost Rider. He's such a fanboy for both, most people couldn't dig them (though I did, but it's because he strikes a better balance between fanboy and film director, I think).

But anyway, I didn't mean to write an article here (I really should be doing that on my blog...), but I think Burton's work is entirely defensible, and closer to the comics than people admit (whether intentional or not).

The feature on the main site has been updated

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2009/1/2/possible-influences-of-comics-on-tim-burtons-batman-returns

Thanks again to BatmAngelus, thecolorsblend, greggbray, ZUPERZERO & Silver Nemesis for allowing me to post their work on the site.  The time you guys have spent researching this stuff is deepy appreciated by all of us.

Awesome, raleagh!  It looks great!  8)

In what issue or year did they start to call the Catwoman "Selina Kyle"? I see her early name was Elva Barr like how the Penguin's name was Mr. Boniface at first. Also, when did they start calling him "Oswald Cobblepot"?

I believe the Selina Kyle name was introduced in the story "The Secret Life of Catwoman" around 1950, which is the same issue that had her origin as a stewardess who fell out of a plane, but miraculously survived.
Edit: Batman #62 is the issue number for this story.

As for Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot, the name wasn't known until Batman and Robin caught him getting a postcard from his Aunt Miranda in the 1946 comic strip story the 1001 Umbrellas of The Penguin.

Plus, I always assumed Mr. Boniface was just an alias the Penguin used as he wouldn't likely use his real name in the middle of a robbery.

Has anyone ever notice that Batman's handwritting on the note to The Penguin is actually Bob Kane's?

Quote from: Darrell Kaiser on Wed,  7 Jan  2009, 06:42
Has anyone ever notice that Batman's handwritting on the note to The Penguin is actually Bob Kane's?

Really?

Why did Michael Uslan say on the B&R DVD that Returns was Tim Burton's tribute to the Batman comics of the 1990's? When the script was handed in they were only a year into the decade.

I always thought the late-80's, early-40's and TDKR were more like the movie.

I always thought Uslan meant that the Burton flicks accurately reflected the pervading darkness of the 90's comics (which were darker than any decade previous, except maybe the 30's/early 40's)... whereas Joel Shlockmaker's films didn't.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  8 Jan  2009, 22:45
I always thought Uslan meant that the Burton flicks accurately reflected the pervading darkness of the 90's comics (which were darker than any decade previous, except maybe the 30's/early 40's)... whereas Joel Shlockmaker's films didn't.

A-ha, that actually makes more sense! :D

Just to let you guys know, our fellow forum poster, Gregg Bray, was on the BOF podcast on Batman-on-Film.
The Batman Returns and the Comics feature on this site is mentioned during a discussion on Penguin.  Specific examples mentioned are Penguin framing Batman, Penguin eating raw fish (as noticed by thecolorsblend), Penguin and the penguin army, the flamethrower umbrella, & umbrella copter (all recognized by Silver Nemesis), as well as Catwoman images from Her Sister's Keeper (also noticed by Silver Nemesis).

http://www.batman-on-film.com/podcasts_menu.html

Hmm.  Bray doesn't sound like I expected.  As for the rest, PJ is pretty evident.  So's Jett.  Who're those other Jokers?

EDIT- Where does the comics angle pop up?  This sucker's 80 minutes long!

PJ wasn't there was he?

Do you mean to imply that Jett knows a ton of other Limeys named Paul with strong opinions on Burton's Batman films???

QuoteEDIT- Where does the comics angle pop up?  This sucker's 80 minutes long!

Sorry.  Around 14:10 or so

I know that Sean, the host, is ManWhoLaughs.  Other than him, Jett, and Gregg, I don't know.
EDIT: And my mistake- it's not PJ.

Quote from: BatmAngelus on Thu, 15 Jan  2009, 04:43I know that Sean, the host, is ManWhoLaughs.

Should've known.  I'll say no more.

EDIT- I'll say no more about him anyway.  However, listening to this thing once again reminds us of how clueless Jett really is. 54:25'ish: "Ya know, Batman Returns, there's a contingent of fans that grew up with that film and that's Batman for them.  And they're so emotionally tied to that film that they can't let go of it and I respect that but, ya know, c'mon guys, THAT'S NOT BATMAN, that's Tim Burton's version of what Batman is."

That's right jerkoff, my appreciation of the movie is based STRICTLY on nostalgia... nevermind that it came out when I was 12 and I didn't LOVE it until I was 25, Jett says it's all about nostalgia and he knows all, right?

Prick.

Incidentally, if someone ever says "I respect you but..." they don't respect you, and they're about to say so.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 15 Jan  2009, 04:20
Do you mean to imply that Jett knows a ton of other Limeys named Paul with strong opinions on Burton's Batman films???

"hmm, you americans all alike"

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rickmanistareview.com%2Fhans_tal.jpg&hash=1491decf975f989cbdf06ac93dd5415d2924a8ac)

;D

There is a difference between an irish accent and an english one  ;)

PJ sounds like Chris Nolan to me   :)

Not me. My schedule wouldn't allow me to do either the B89 or BR podcasts. Shame, I was really looking forward to them. I have done a couple of the podcasts, but I'm referred to as 'PJ' so not to get to get confused with Paul.

Is the name calling really necessary?

Yes, it absolutely is.

It's people like Jett (who have influence) that continue to create rifts in the fanbase, by pushing his OPINION (And that's ALL it is, there's not even a shred of truth to his Batman Returns statements) as fact. Stupid people (and there's plenty of them) are going to take what Jett says as some kind of fact.

Jett's opinion of BR is widely known so I don't really think it should come as a suprise to anyone or warrent name calling.

Regardless, I though Gregg did a great job of presenting the many great elements of BR in the face of such adversity  8)

QuoteThere is a difference between an irish accent and an english one

True.

QuoteNot me

Oops.

QuoteIs the name calling really necessary?

I can appreciate that Jett is your friend and you don't take kindly to people badmouthing him.  It's just that I don't care, ya know?  The guy has arguably done more to foster bad blood in this whole Burtonite/Nolanite business than anybody else.

Besides, it's not like I talked smack about a member of this forum or anything.

For as someone who's that involved in the in fanbase as a whole to be that....misinformed biased, and snarky...yeah..it warrents name calling.

Quote from: DarkVengeance on Fri, 16 Jan  2009, 01:38Name calling isnt usually necessary unless your in middle school arguing about who's better at something, I think Jett is a fat headed guy who thinks he's something special I dont agree with most of the things he says, but he has delivered alot of things for batman fans that no one else could and on that front I appreciate his effort, otherwise I could care less about him in any way.

Ah.  That's because you don't know him.

Well, as for Jett's review of BR... BOF is really a great Batman news site and I like Jett's review, but his BR one goes totally against my perspective of the movie. He just talked about the bad aspects of the movie, and evn he good aspects were "bad" in his concept of the movie... what a lame!  >:(

To DarkVengence. A read.

I'm going to dissagree with "a burton film with batman characters in it".

Looking through all this, the better more reliable influences about this forum, Tim and the real story people put together what they did with the combination of elements they had.

No one needs to falsely defend it as Burtonized. So far, only CatWoman is not to source heavily, but by not stealing. You should also not judge on the set films as they were unfinished. While CatWoman had her origin and anger here in the film, she would get down to bussiness after her plot to kill Batman with peguin, the only reason much of her singular life is unshown.


Remember that the ultimate realism involved with Nolan's VASTLY changes origins and everything.

The only one who places "too abysmal or old to do" in front of our eyes is Nolan's. Oh yeah...LotR...not much major change from the past 40+ years it came out in. He can't do everyone and it cannot take over the comic universe fully without dissrupting it's more simple realism, which Burton at least had (fixing scars to make smile lock, burn and zombify skin pigments as well as die hair to color), which kept the more of the origins and characters overal.

After this, like Two-Face, Nolan used an Irish man with no real announcement to my knowledge on race in-movie, for an arabian. I found many similarities with Burtons in the style of accuracy and inaccuracy down to it being a race fix for Two-Face, removing the dark penguin people didn't know was partly correct and a switch of Joker with BatMan. BatMan's appearance with a re-imagined version of that Joker, now a darker Clockwork Orange-esque/other with light gags (from one book aside the teeth and glasses).

But it's still very dark. Look at how Joker sprays acid in the person he's dating's face and misses. If hit, we see how bad and evil he still is. She'd be an ugly obomination dying with Joker laughing in the mist or even mocking her with saying...AWWWW...what a shame (add laughter). He'd get up and leave like she was nothing. This is why many do not see the killing joke influence, they look only at this part with the gags, not the insanity and lack of care. They say it's back in forth and not in one direct theme, which is wrong.

You got Ducard missing too, which is huge, changes with Ra's Al Ghul which make him too strong an enemy (student vs master = new main enemy? new Joker?), any origin changed in the long run thus far, including BatMan's past...again. Really, it could balance it self out as there are things worth while to comic fans in each universe.

It is NOT this definite movie, but another BatMan that can be revised furtherly. It's still with using certain things as a cameo or something else, like the Killing Joke, which is only a wink with the scar stories or changing it to be Dent's origin entirely (character dosn't count as many novels portray a gritty Joker, and remember 2006's Joker).

However, note that due to BB and TDK, others will choose the route of the overly realistic tone and not accurate bits, like F4 did for Doom. Oh yeah, it was to rip the Spider-Man formula for a sure thing, yet the original could be fit in realistically as well. So, this means that out of popularity, they are not going to go for this type of thing Burton and Sam actually started the more of later on down the road.....


....panel recreations. Something I have't seen in many movies unless a pose. Sure Nolan's has em too and both of theirs aren't perfect with the comic (like year one with the ending of TDK), but i'm on equalizing out the lies and making them more equally the pictures in accuracy they are anyways. Even if Nolan's could be more similar, it's not by that big a margine as told. Alot is the "blah blah needs to be a collector" "no writer or story by guy exists" "don't know what a director does" to begin with, producer only is the line producer stuff. Sin City would be a sloppy mess without this success.

It would be the whole "your a nerd and all I do is better" crap from movie makers without the money showing it can work. Burton and Hamm was the door for this. Not many before that did a more respectfull recreation while being successful. It would wave in this era faster. Even SuperMan had addings to it not in the original, along with some cheesier sequels more on hollywood invension.


And now to make the perfect BatMan film...lets put Burton and Nolan's films and simutanously flicker them on a theartre screen...(creates the comic itself LOL)

Just adding a few things.

Here's a picture illustrating the Penguin and Catwoman's short-lived alliance from 'The Catwoman's Black Magic!' (1966).

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi396.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp42%2Fsilver-nemsis%2Fsgll70a.jpg&hash=4b9c34eafd87f3a9a9a43c14a8e3ac766a897f49)

This story also featured a 'what did curiosity do to the cat' line.

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And a nine lives pun, which was pretty typical of the era.

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There was another story called 'The Case of the Purr-loined Pearl!' (Batman #210, 1969) which explored the nine lives concept. In this story Selina recruits eight recently paroled female criminals, dresses them in identical costumes and trains them to fight like her in order to create the illusion she has nine lives.

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This story also marks an interesting example of the Pre-Crisis Catwoman wearing goggles like her contemporary counterpart does

Interestingly, some of Selina's near-death encounters from the movie have happened to other villains in the comics. In Batman #11, the caped crusader knocks the Joker off a roof. The Joker survives the fall by hitting several awnings on the way down.

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In Batman #297 he knocked a criminal off a rocky outcrop, only for him to land in a truck full of sand and be carried safely away.

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Michael Bair, who was the artist (inker) on Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper, has some of the original artwork listed for sale on ComicArtFans.com. He more or less confirms the movie connection in the description for the page depicting Selina lying in the alley with the cats.

Quote"This is the scene that was copied in both "Batman Returns" & "Catwoman" movies, where the dead body is surrounded by cats."

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=86134&GSub=12469

That comment, combined with the presence of two full pages from the comic in Michael Singer's Batman Returns: The Official Movie Book, removes any lingering doubt from my mind that this particular story was consciously referenced by the filmmakers.

Very impressive!

A few more things to add...

I posted in another thread about the 1989-91 Batman comic strip by Max Allan Collins and Marshall Rogers, and how the series was commissioned as a kind of follow-up to the 1989 movie. In that regard, the comic strip itself can be seen as an alternative sequel to the movie. Especially since the first two villains to appear in it were Catwoman and the Penguin. In the Catwoman storyline, the depiction of Selina Kyle is quite different from the version in the mainstream comics at the time.

Unlike the pre-Zero Hour comics, this version of Catwoman is a cold-blooded killer. She slashes people to death with her claws and displays no remorse afterwards. This has to be one of the most vicious interpretations of the character I've seen in any medium.

It should be instantly familiar to anyone who's read Sam Hamm's script for Batman 2. The early plot point in Hamm's script about Batman being blamed for a recent spate of vigilante killings – when in reality it is Catwoman who is responsible – was taken directly from this comic. The overall characterisation of Catwoman as a cold-blooded killer is also consistent with Hamm's script.

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The Catwoman in Batman: The Animated Series was also influenced by this comic strip. Perhaps most notably in Catwoman's alter ego. Here Selina is depicted as a wealthy philanthropist who runs an art gallery in order to raise money to help disadvantaged youths. The comic story ends with Batman and Catwoman about to embrace, only for Batman to suddenly slap a pair of handcuffs on her. This was reused in 'The Cat and the Claw' two-parter in the TV show.

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As far as her origin story goes, this Selina was a member of a gang of drug dealers known as the Crime Alley Cats. Selina was the girlfriend of the gang's leader and sold drugs on his behalf, which in turn resulted in her being arrested and sent to prison.

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Selina then kicked the habit and decided to turn her life around. She started by targeting the very gang she'd once served. The first few times we see her she's attacking drug dealers in alleyways. Sometimes she kills them, other times she simply slashes their faces with her claws and sends them off to warn the other drug dealers. These scenes are visually similar to Catwoman's first costumed scene in Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper where she slashes Stan's face after fighting him in an alley; or her first costumed scene in Batman Returns where she slashes the face of a would-be rapist.

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Batman intercedes and stops her from killing a drug dealer. She says that she became Catwoman following his example, and he tells her it's not their place to kill lowlifes. The underlying theme behind their conversation is similar to their discussions about Shreck in Batman Returns.

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It turns out that all the drugs are coming from a rich gangster named Mr. 'Bull' Pitt. He could be seen as the Max Shreck of this story, and it's ultimately him that Selina goes after. She finally kills him by pulling him out of the window of his office - an inversion of what Shreck did to Selina in the movie.

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This story also features a nine-lives gag.

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Here are some more comics dealing with the nine-lives motif.

I mentioned a while ago that two Catwoman comic stories were referenced in the comic history chapter of Michael Singer's Batman Returns: The Official Movie Book – 'Shadow of the Cat' (Batman #323 – 324, 1980) and Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper. I've already written quite a bit about Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper, which was of course the canonical origin story of the pre-Zero Hour Catwoman before it was retconned in 1993. But after rereading 'Shadow of the Cat' I've found some more things to say about that story too.

First of all, the cover art.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi396.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp42%2Fsilver-nemsis%2Fsotc.jpg&hash=1cac5412183e86282d978c0e00bec4a881942fa7)

There's a certain Batman Returns vibe going on here. Both covers show Batman and Catwoman in the sewers. On the first cover we see Catwoman attacking Batman with her claws. A classic snapshot of the Batman/Catwoman feud, except here Batman isn't striking back. That's because this story took place during the period when Selina had reformed and was living a law-abiding life. She reassumes the mantle in this story because she was told in the previous issue – 'Chaos – Coming and Going!' (Batman #322, 1980) – that she had contracted an exotic disease during her tenure as Catwoman, and that if she didn't steal a rare Egyptian remedy she'd be dead within a month. In this story Cat-Man has stolen the remedy from a museum and Catwoman has been blamed. So she sets off to recover the medicine and get revenge on Cat-Man. Batman's role is to try and resolve the situation while steering Selina back onto the path of lawfulness, similar to the finale of Batman Returns. The second cover shows what might have been had Batman found Selina's remains at the end of the movie – emerging from the sewers in his own damaged costume, carrying the wounded Selina in his arms.

What's most interesting about this story though is that it marks the end of the 'nine lives' story arc that began with the introduction of Cat-Man back in the 1960s. To properly explain this we need to look at the history of the Cat-Man character, as well as Bob Kane's original concept behind the Cat-villain motif. On page 16 of Batman Returns: The Official Movie Book the question of why Selina dresses as a cat is directed at Kane.

QuoteWhy a cat? "Well, a cat has nine lives," Kane emphasizes. "So I figured that whenever she was caught, or wounded, she would survive and live again for another go-round with Batman."

This element of feline endurance was the earliest characteristic to be displayed by the character in the comics, even before she got her cowl, claws, whip or alter ego. Back when she was simply known as 'The Cat' she still displayed this uncanny ability to pull off unlikely escapes. At the end of her first appearance in 'The Cat' (Batman #1, 1940) she leaps out of a speeding motorboat into the sea. At the end of her second appearance in 'The Joker Meets the Cat-Woman' (Detective Comics #2, 1940) she jumps from a rope ladder hanging from the Bat-Plane and plummets into the sea again. Both times escaping from Batman and evading capture.

This survival-trait of the character, along with her flirty relationship with Batman, were the earliest recurring elements of Catwoman's personality. I've already mentioned some other stories that highlighted the nine-lives theme in more detail – specifically the Golden Age story 'Nine Lives Has the Catwoman' and the Silver Age story 'The Case of the Purr-loined Pearl!'. But the comic writers went on to explore it in more detail through the character of Cat-Man.

Cat-Man first appeared in 'The Challenge of the Cat-Man' (Detective Comics #311, January 1963). At the end of that story he appeared to perish after plunging over a cataract. Batman wonders if there's any truth to the notion that cats have nine lives...

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...and clearly there is, for Cat-Man returned later that year in 'The Cat-Man Strikes Back' (Detective Comics #318, August 1963). At the end of this story he seemingly dies again, this time when he crashes his motorboat into a buoy and it explodes. Batman again wonders if he could have survived since he still has seven lives left.

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And of course Cat-Man returned yet again in 'The Strange Lives of the Cat-Man' (Detective Comics #325, March 1964). Here it was explained that Cat-Man's nine lives were indeed supernatural. Apparently he'd made his costume from a material from a Pacific island where the natives worshipped cats. In later comics the supernatural properties of his costume would be treated with more ambiguity, suggesting that his survival stemmed from good luck rather than paranormal causes. But in this story it is clearly, unambiguously supernatural. Cat-Man loses his third life when he dives off a cliff....

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...his fourth life when he gets electrocuted...

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...and his fifth life when he walks through fire.

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Batwoman then dresses in the Cat-Woman costume Cat-Man made for her using the materials from his own suit. She uses up three of his four remaining lives – once to save Batman and Robin from the burning rooftop where Cat-Man had left them, a second time after driving her motorcycle over a ravine, and a third time when she leaps from a skyscraper. With only one life remaining, Cat-Man is then safely locked away behind bars.

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Cat-Man didn't face off against Batman again for another 16 years, but he did finally return in the Bronze Age story 'Shadow of the Cat'. As mentioned earlier, Selina Kyle was dying from a recently diagnosed illness. At the end of the story she makes a miraculous recovery from this disease after ripping off part of Cat-Man's costume. The ending is ambiguous, with Bruce Wayne doubting the supernatural nature of her recovery but at a loss to explain it in any other way. Selina herself firmly believes that she has survived by taking one of Cat-Man's nine lives for herself.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi396.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp42%2Fsilver-nemsis%2Fb324.jpg&hash=2598b90984d206156c1da66b35b30502024a5228)

Unlike previous stories – where Catwoman's nine-lives ability was presented as simply good luck or trickery – it is here presented as 100% supernatural. This event would be mentioned in later comics whenever Catwoman and Cat-Man clashed; with both of them believing that Selina stole one of Blake's lives, even though the other characters remain sceptical. And as I mentioned earlier, 'Shadow of the Cat' was referenced in the Batman Returns movie book. Coincidence? Perhaps...

Most comics don't bother to explain or justify why Selina dresses as a cat. Batman Returns is one of the few times a compelling reason was given to explain why she did. In creating ambiguity regarding her nine lives, Burton restored the mystical totemic dimension to the character that'd been absent from the comics since the pre-Crisis era. In short, by having Selina relate her good luck to her feline totem, it created a valid psychological reason for her to adopt the mantle of the cat. It doesn't matter if she really does possess supernatural abilities (and according to Burton's DVD commentary she doesn't); it only matters that she believes she does and that she relates her own survival instincts to her totem. I would argue that this is best explanation to date for why she would dress as a cat. If you approach the issue from a rational standpoint it makes no sense why a female criminal would dress as a cat instead of simply wearing a less conspicuous stealth suit. But if you approach it from a psychological/mystical perspective like Burton did, it starts to make more sense. At least that's what I think.

Anyway, that's all I've got on Batman Returns for the moment.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 11 Jun  2011, 18:27
Anyway, that's all I've got on Batman Returns for the moment.

That's all?!  ;D Excellent post man!

Indeed, that was a great post Silver Nemesis!

I particularly enjoyed learning about the "alternate sequel" to the '89 movie. It's a shame DC doesn't team up with some of the visionaries behind those films and let them do a Batman comic book, even one set in a different continuity.

Yeah, it's a shame they never produced a tie-in comic. It would've been a great way of introducing movie fans to the source material. I remember DC produced a comic to promote the John Wesley Shipp Flash series in the 90s. There were two original stories – one by John Byrne, the other by Mark Waid – which used the likenesses of the characters and locations from the show. The art style really nailed the look and feel of the series.

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It would've been amazing if they'd done something similar for the Batman films. But as far as I'm aware, the only tie-ins DC ever produced – not counting adaptations or comics based on animated shows – were for The Flash, Smallville and Superman Returns.

At least we got some partial tie-ins though, like the Marshall Rogers newspaper strip and Batman: Child of Dreams. But it would've been fun to have had a series that really followed the movie canon.

More excellent work, Silver Nemesis.  These threads continue to remind me of how much of a rich and diverse history the character had before the more popular stories like Year One and Post-Crisis hit.

Regarding the Batman comic strips, there's a cool analysis by the hefner/about faces.  It's cool to see the beginning with Rogers's art recapping Batman's fight with the Joker, with the only revision on the 1989 movie being that the Joker fell into Gotham Bay and may have survived.  The ties to the movie pretty much end there, though, but here are the links:

Batman vs. Catwoman: http://about-faces.livejournal.com/32340.html
The Penguin and Harvey Dent: http://about-faces.livejournal.com/32636.html (part 1)
The Red Hood: http://about-faces.livejournal.com/33257.html (part 2)
Trial of the Joker.  Yes, Harvey does get scarred, but not in the way you'd predict: http://about-faces.livejournal.com/33524.html
Two-Face: http://about-faces.livejournal.com/34404.html
An interesting revision on the origin of Robin: http://about-faces.livejournal.com/34651.html
The Riddler: http://about-faces.livejournal.com/34927.html
Grand Finale with the Mad Hatter, Arkham Asylum, and a resolution with Two-Face: http://about-faces.livejournal.com/35096.html

Very good to see the comic strips online. Which one has the Joker recap?

The Catwoman one at the very beginning, with the interview with Vicki Vale.

I just want to add this quote from Daniel Waters to the thread. Here he confirms the influence of Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns on his screenplay.

QuoteThough not a follower of the comics or the TV series, Waters took in as much of the Batman mythology as he could in a short time-span. He credits Frank Miller's graphic novel The Dark Knight Returns with leaving the deepest impression. ''I think it's one of the best things done in any medium in the last five years. In fact, I was one of those naïve people who thought 'Why not just make a movie out of Miller's version?' Then you realize that no studio is going to spend $60 million on a movie where five hundred people get killed on The David Letterman Show.''

http://www.angelfire.com/film/batman/movies/returns/story.htm

Artist Michael Bair acknowledged the connection between Batman Returns and Mindy Newell's Catwoman Vol 1 miniseries (Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper) on ComicArtFans.com. Now we've got confirmation from Waters regarding the TDKR influence. It'd be great if we could get confirmation on some of these other comic influences; especially the very first Penguin story in Detective Comics #58.

The plot is pretty similar:
•   A "strange, almost ludicrous figure" known as the Penguin shows up in Gotham City. He dresses in a top hat, has a peculiar physique and beak-like nose, and wields an array of weaponised umbrellas.
•   He presents an upstanding veneer to the people of Gotham, but secretly forges an alliance with the biggest racketeer in the city (who later betrays him).
•   Everyone thinks the Penguin is a law-abiding citizen, but Bruce Wayne suspects a connection between his arrival in Gotham and the recent crime wave.
•   The Penguin's henchmen embark on their latest crime, but Batman shows up and stops them. Immediately afterwards he comes face to face with the Penguin for the first time and they talk. Batman makes clear his intent to stop the crime wave.
•   The Penguin then succeeds in framing Batman for a crime he didn't commit. The city turns against Batman and the police are compelled to hunt him down.
•   Batman has to clear his name by bringing the Penguin and his gang to justice.

I expect Michael Uslan would have have shown this comic to Burton and Waters, what with it being the very first Penguin story ever written. But it'd be great if we could get a quote from someone confirming this.

Well, here we go again...

The riot scene at the beginning of the movie may have been influenced by 'Without Fear of Consequence' (Batman #456, November 1990), in which criminals wearing skeleton masks launch a citywide attack against Christmas shoppers on Christmas Eve.


During the riot two gang members jump onto the Batmobile and attempt to shatter the bulletproff windscreen. A similar setpiece occurs in Batman versus Predator (1991), where the titular alien jumps on top of the Batmbobile and tries to break the glass. In both stories Batman sets the vehicle in motion, accelerates to a fast speed, then brakes suddenly so that the momentum sends his unwanted passenger(s) flying.


Much of the action in the movie takes place around Gotham Plaza. In the comics, the Gotham Plaza is an upscale hotel in the heart of the city. Some comics have also given the address of City Hall as Number One Gotham Plaza.


The Batmobile in this movie has the ability to transform into the Batmissile, a slender torpedo-shaped vehicle capable of advanced speeds and manoeuvrability. The Bat-Missile in the comics was a similar looking craft, equally suited to advanced speeds and manoeuvrability. It was sent backwards in time by the Batman of the future to aid his present-day counterpart, as depicted in the Silver Age story 'The Mysterious Bat-Missile' (Batman #105, February 1957). In this story, Batman converts the Bat-Missile into a Batmobile by adding "wheels and a little trim" to its sides. At the end of the story he disengages the Bat-Missile portion from the rest of the Batmobile. The Batmissile in the movie can also be connected or disconnected from the rest of the Batmbobile.


A second Bat-Missile was introduced in 'The Creature from Planet X' (Detective Comics #270, August 1959), though that was more of a straightforward rocket ship.


Expanding on BatmAngelus' Rupert Thorne/Max Shreck comparisons...


The first time we see Thorne in 'By Death's Eerie Light' (Detective Comics #469, May 1977) he's in a meeting with some of the city councilmen, negotiating tax incentives to facilitate the construction of a new power plant. The first time we see Shreck in Batman Returns he's in a similar meeting, also proposing the construction of a new power plant.

In both stories the power plant meets serious opposition. Thorne and Shreck both resort to underhanded electioneering to try and win favour with the public and allow their plans to go ahead. However, their efforts are not entirely successful in either story. Thorne's power plant is eventually built, but he is forced to construct it outside the city limits, three miles offshore. And it ends up proving to be a financial disaster. Meanwhile Shreck's power plant is never built at all.


Thorne's second big storyline in Strange Apparitions sees him having Hugo Strange killed, only for his victim to return from the grave to vengefully haunt him. This is somewhat similar to the storyline between Shreck and Selina in the movie. Shreck thinks he has killed Selina, but like Hugo Strange, she turns out to have survived the attack and subsequently hounds him in search of revenge.

Thorne's next big scheme, starting in 'The Ghost of Wayne Mansion' (Batman #341, November 1981), sees him trying to gain political power by backing a corrupt candidate in the mayoral elections. He successfully campaigns to get one of his stooges, Hamilton Hill, elected as mayor of Gotham City. Thorne is then able to control Hill's administration to serve his own agenda. Shreck attempts the same strategy in Batman Returns, putting Cobblepot forward as a candidate to supplant the current mayor. Both Thorne and Shreck engineer smear campaigns against Batman as part of their political strategy.
 

Thanks to the machinations of Thorne, Hamilton Hill becomes mayor of Gotham in 'The "I" of the Beholder' (Detective Comics #511, February 1982). Cobblepot comes close to being mayor, but is ousted in the final stage of his campaign.


Hill, like Cobblepot, tries to frame Batman for a crime in order to turn public opinion against him. In 'Hill's Descent' (Detective Comics #546, January 1985), Hill uses a replica of Batman's glove to incriminate him. In the movie, Cobblepot uses one of the Dark Knight's batarangs to set him up.


Ultimately Batman is able to end both Hill and Cobblepot's political careers by exposing their corrupt nature to the public. Rupert Thorne is imprisoned in the comics, while Max Shreck meets his demise at the hands of Catwoman.


And now a few comparisons with The Penguin Affair (1990).

In this story Cobblepot uses electronic devices to manipulate birds, implanting wave modulator mechanisms inside their skulls and transmitting sonic signals to control their actions. He uses a similar means of control to manipulate the penguin commandoes at the end of the movie.


Batman is able to track down the whereabouts of the Penguin's secret hideout in the film by tracing the source of the signal Cobblepot uses to control the birds. This is the same method the Batman in the comics uses to locate the Penguin's hidden base in The Penguin Affair.


During the movie's finale, Batman uses a sonic device to disrupt Cobblepot's control signal and lure the penguin commandoes back to the zoo. The Batman in the comics uses a similar device in The Penguin Affair.


The Penguin Affair also features a subplot about the Penguin kidnapping a blonde actress, though the context behind the kidnapping is different from the movie.

And that's about it.

Awesome additions, Silver!

Steve Englehart may have said that Carl Grissom was Rupert Thorne under another name, but I'd argue, with this evidence, that Max Schreck was a much closer version to Thorne.  Not just in his schemes, but look at that hair!

One thing that I did not mention in my Comikaze write-up, since it didn't seem to fit, is that I don't think Uslan was a fan of Schreck's character.  When Uslan was talking about how Pfeiffer's Catwoman was one of his favorite parts of Batman, panelist Jonathan London added, in his best Christopher Walken impression, "And...Max...Schreck."  It's hard to describe Uslan's expression, but the audience laughed and Uslan said, "That's for another discussion entirely."

Perhaps your write-up will give him more of an appreciation of the character when he sees the article (once we add these new ones in).   ;D

Well, as you wrote in the original feature - Shreck is basically Thorne. They've got the same hairstyle and everything. The only physical difference between the two characters is their weight. Thorne's fat, Shreck's thin. Thorne smokes cigars, Shreck doesn't. Other than that, they're really just the same guy. They even have similar macho ways of talking about business.

•   The plot to construct the power plant
•   The corrupt electioneering
•   The failed attempt to kill another major character, resulting in a vengeful vendetta
•   The Hill/Cobblepot mayoral campaign
•   The scheme to discredit Batman

Almost every Pre-Crisis Rupert Thorne plotline is there in the movie. And whether it was intentional or not, it certainly validates that aspect of the film.

It'll be interesting to see if this affects Uslan's views on the character.

Briliant as always Silver Nemesis.  This is rapidly becoming my favourite feature on this site.

Just a small request.  Do you have any pics of The Penguin Affair including the kidnap storyline you mentioned?

Absolutely brilliant. I am in heaven with these new BR additions - which are dead on and make me appreciate the movie even more.

QuoteJust a small request.  Do you have any pics of The Penguin Affair including the kidnap storyline you mentioned?

Here you go Gobbs.


The kidnapping plot is very different from the one in the movie. Cobblepot becomes fixated on an actress after she plays a ruthless character in a TV show. He then sends a flock of carrier pigeons to kidnap her (yes, you read that right – carrier pigeons). But she obviously doesn't reciprocate his feelings. It's a weird subplot with little bearing on the main narrative.

Feature is now back up!  Reorganized and split into pages, with new references included, thanks to the great Silver Nemesis.  Link in my signature.

As many people mentioned in this thread, The Killing Joke had a big influence on Burton's take on Batman, and not just for B89 either. Now that I'm thinking about it, there may have been a few more scenes in BR that got its ideas from Alan Moore's story.

The scene where the few remaining members of the Red Triangle Gang making their escape as soon as they hear the Batboat coming towards them can be compared to the Joker's circus freak gang running away once Batman makes his arrival in the Batmobile. Both the movie Penguin and comic Joker had their gangs deserting them, and were forced to confront Batman on their own.

Another possible influence is both Penguin and Joker were let down by a gag weapon. In the end of BR, the Penguin tries to shoot Batman with one of his umbrella guns, but he accidentally takes a harmless toy umbrella instead. In the end of TJK, the Joker tries to shoot Batman, but the gun is empty and fires a flag instead.

Finally, and now I know it's not quite the same thing, but both endings had Batman failing to convince the villain to do the right thing. In BR, Batman pleaded Catwoman to turn Max Shreck over to the police instead of killing him, because he cared for Selina on a romantic level. Despite not knowing what exactly Max did to her, Bruce unmasked himself to show Selina they're the same as each other and offered her the chance to escape from everything and go home with him. In TJK, Batman offered the Joker the chance to undergo rehabilitation to regain his sanity and to stop their war with each other. Like movie Batman didn't know what exactly drove Selina over the edge, comic Batman doesn't know what happened that made the Joker who he is, but mentions maybe he had been through a similar experience and tried to help the villain and let him know he didn't need to be alone. Both movie Catwoman and comic Joker reject Batman's pleas, and express strong remorse for their wrongs.

Whether Burton and co did any of this on purpose or not, I think it's easy to say TKJ had definitely a big influence on his work on a subconscious level. He did enjoy the comic, after all.

Daniel Waters reacts to this site feature at the 11:22 mark in the following video:

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 15 Jun  2011, 22:49But as far as I'm aware, the only tie-ins DC ever produced – not counting adaptations or comics based on animated shows – were for The Flash, Smallville and Superman Returns.

I'm only about eleven years late in replying to this comment.

But there WAS a title called Superboy: The Comic Book, which was a tie-in to the late Eighties/early Nineties TV show. Some issues are decent. Some are... well, less decent. But several issues featured some latter day Curt Swan art. Between this Superboy comic book and the odd Superman guest appearance (i.e., The Sinbad Contract circa 1990), that was my introduction to Curt Swan on Superman (or anything) because I grew up Post-Crisis. Superboy: The Comic Book was also my introduction to Mark Waid as a writer (which wasn't a bad story overall).

The big weakness of Superboy: The Comic Book was, iirc, that it came out between season 1 and season 2 of the show. Well, after season 1, the show got heavily retooled. Not as retooled as it would get later on, as we all know. But still, the changes were so significant that the status quo introduced in STCB #01 was obsolete the instant the first issue hit the stands.

Weren't there also tie-in comics for Arrow and Gustin's The Flash (neither of which existed when SN posted that)? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

To actually contribute to the topic at hand (what a novel idea!), I'm kind of ashamed of myself for not contributing much of anything substantial to this thread/feature. For one of my favorite Batman films of all time, I would've thought I'd get off the bench for this. Hmm. I'll do some poking around and see if I can find anything SN might've overlooked.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 28 Jul  2022, 21:46But there WAS a title called Superboy: The Comic Book, which was a tie-in to the late Eighties/early Nineties TV show. Some issues are decent. Some are... well, less decent. But several issues featured some latter day Curt Swan art. Between this Superboy comic book and the odd Superman guest appearance (i.e., The Sinbad Contract circa 1990), that was my introduction to Curt Swan on Superman (or anything) because I grew up Post-Crisis. Superboy: The Comic Book was also my introduction to Mark Waid as a writer (which wasn't a bad story overall).

The big weakness of Superboy: The Comic Book was, iirc, that it came out between season 1 and season 2 of the show. Well, after season 1, the show got heavily retooled. Not as retooled as it would get later on, as we all know. But still, the changes were so significant that the status quo introduced in STCB #01 was obsolete the instant the first issue hit the stands.

Weren't there also tie-in comics for Arrow and Gustin's The Flash (neither of which existed when SN posted that)? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

I'd never heard of the Superboy tie-in until now. Would that make Superboy the first live action DC TV show to get an official comic? I know Jiro Kuwata's Bat-Manga series was heavily influenced by the Adam West show, but that was still technically its own universe and not a tie-in.

There have been many more tie-in comics since I posted that comment in 2011, which illustrates how the modern comic industry, like the modern film industry, is compensating for its lack of worthy new ideas by falling back on nostalgia. Since 2011 we've had the Batman '66, Wonder Woman '77, Superman '78 and Batman '89 comics, and there have been several comics connected to the DCEU and Arrowverse. Next we've got the Reevesverse Riddler prequel comic coming out.

Me, I'm still waiting for a Lois & Clark season 5 comic.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 28 Jul  2022, 21:46To actually contribute to the topic at hand (what a novel idea!), I'm kind of ashamed of myself for not contributing much of anything substantial to this thread/feature. For one of my favorite Batman films of all time, I would've thought I'd get off the bench for this. Hmm. I'll do some poking around and see if I can find anything SN might've overlooked.

Any additions would be welcome. I went into too much detail on certain things in this feature. Like listing examples of circus gangs, or all the times Selina used her nine lives. BatmAngelus politely pointed this out back when we were editing the feature, and in retrospect he was right. But in my defence, these were common criticisms that Nolan fans were levelling against BR at the time. I'd seen people complaining that the Batman in the comics fights realistic criminals, not circus gangs, and that Catwoman never had nine lives. I was trying to respond to those criticisms by showing that the film was consistent with the source material. Looking back at it now, the feature could probably benefit from some trimming.

It's a shame that all these years later we still can't get a quote confirming that any of these parallels were deliberate. Still, the writer of Demolition Man said "Oh sh*t!" in response to something I posted, and that makes the whole endeavour worthwhile.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 29 Jul  2022, 14:37
It's a shame that all these years later we still can't get a quote confirming that any of these parallels were deliberate. Still, the writer of Demolition Man said "Oh sh*t!" in response to something I posted, and that makes the whole endeavour worthwhile.

Even if every single comic similarity in the Burton films was achieved by pure chance it doesn't change the fact the parallels are there. It would be like being ignorant of the waypoints explorers of yesteryear took, but making the exact same decisions on your own as they're the right ones to make. You're channeling their same pioneering spirit and equaling them, which is an even higher achievement than simple referencing.

QuoteIt's a shame that all these years later we still can't get a quote confirming that any of these parallels were deliberate. Still, the writer of Demolition Man said "Oh sh*t!" in response to something I posted, and that makes the whole endeavour worthwhile.

I'm sure some were deliberate but for people like Waters, they're only truly in the moment when they're writing. Once their job is over, they move onto the next project and channel their energy into that. I always compare us fans asking questions like these to creators as though someone asked us about the papers we had to write in school.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 30 Jul  2022, 12:10Even if every single comic similarity in the Burton films was achieved by pure chance it doesn't change the fact the parallels are there. It would be like being ignorant of the waypoints explorers of yesteryear took, but making the exact same decisions on your own as they're the right ones to make. You're channeling their same pioneering spirit and equaling them, which is an even higher achievement than simple referencing.

Quote from: Kamdan on Sat, 30 Jul  2022, 13:21I'm sure some were deliberate but for people like Waters, they're only truly in the moment when they're writing. Once their job is over, they move onto the next project and channel their energy into that. I always compare us fans asking questions like these to creators as though someone asked us about the papers we had to write in school.

This is all true. If nothing else, we know that Hamm had read the comics, and he's credited with co-writing the film's story.


The fact Hamm used Penguin's original Golden Age name, Boniface, proves that the plot similarities with Detective Comics V1 #58 weren't coincidental. Furthermore, two pages from Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper depicting the scene where Catwoman claws Batman after their first rooftop fight, which strongly resemble their first costumed battle in the finished film, were reprinted on page 17 of Michael Singer's Batman Returns: The Official Movie Book.


And Michael Singer is listed on the end credits of Batman Returns as 'unit publicist'. So the film's marketing team were certainly aware of the similarities between that comic and the movie, even if Waters wasn't.

Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper was also reissued as a trade paperback to coincide with the release of Batman Returns in 1992, and the blurb of this edition directly references the movie:

QuoteTie into the excitement and interest generated by the release of the blockbuster motion picture Batman Returns--which features Catwoman (played by Michelle Pfeiffer)--with this graphic novel about Batman's feline adversary. Batman was the top-grossing film of 1989, and the book Batman has more than 1.3 million copies in print.

Catwoman Volume 1 artist Michael Bair also posted the original art work for the page where Selina is lying in the alleyway with the cats on ComicArtFans, and in his description he stated that this scene was adapted in Batman Returns: https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=86134

So there is some evidence to suggest the parallels were conscious. I'd just like someone from the movie's production team to acknowledge it. But as TDK says, the parallels exist whether they were deliberate or not. And that's the important thing.

QuoteSo there is some evidence to suggest the parallels were conscious. I'd just like someone from the movie's production team to acknowledge it. But as TDK says, the parallels exist whether they were deliberate or not. And that's the important thing.

I'm sure in Waters case (as it is with many screenwriters adapting comics) would be writing out a basic plot line with appropriate character motivations and story details would be filled in with inspirations from selected comics from DC's archives, hence why there are a notable amount of similarities. It's been pointed out that Mario Puzo spent a lot of time reading through back issues provided by DC back when he was writing Superman. I'm sure this option was open for Waters and Hamm.

I can speak from personal angle that I've implored a similar method in my own adaptations. Similar to my analogy of writing school papers, it is a good idea to keep a list of sources so that we don't we commit an act of plagiarism, which was never very clear to me when I was in school. To me, plagiarism is directly copying and pasting some thing and claiming it to be your own. Adaptations are another animal all together as it is not using it the same dialogue or context. Waters likely reacted the way he did because he probably did see those panels and used them for inspiration and if you don't make a note of your source, it can become your own in your later recollections.

Writers also have to be careful in these areas because it could be used as citation for a lawsuit. James Cameron experience that with Terminator when he cited Outer Limits episodes as his inspiration and Harlan Ellison jumped on that with how his work closely resembled Cameron's. This was something Cameron made sure he acknowledged for Avatar and cited Dances with Wolves writer Michael Blake in the credits to avoid another similar situation.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 29 Jul  2022, 14:37I'd never heard of the Superboy tie-in until now. Would that make Superboy the first live action DC TV show to get an official comic?

Could be. One of the selling points of SBTCB is the Kevin Maguire covers. I had never seen his art before (because I wasn't following Justice League at the time). But a lot of those old Superboy covers that Maguire did are amazing. Strangely enough, a lot of Maguire fans are totally unaware of his Superboy covers, so it's always a treat for them when they discover them.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 29 Jul  2022, 14:37Any additions would be welcome. I went into too much detail on certain things in this feature. Like listing examples of circus gangs, or all the times Selina used her nine lives. BatmAngelus politely pointed this out back when we were editing the feature, and in retrospect he was right. But in my defence, these were common criticisms that Nolan fans were levelling against BR at the time. I'd seen people complaining that the Batman in the comics fights realistic criminals, not circus gangs, and that Catwoman never had nine lives. I was trying to respond to those criticisms by showing that the film was consistent with the source material. Looking back at it now, the feature could probably benefit from some trimming.

The reason that the Nolan bunch throw fewer barbs at BR these days might be precisely because of your feature. Trimming that stuff out could create room to reignite the old controversies all over again.

There's a lot to be said for keeping the feature as is.

As TDK mentioned, it kind of doesn't matter whether or not the similarities between the comics and the Burton films are intentional. Because either way, it says that the creative types behind the Burton films were dialed in when it comes to the source material. In a way, it speaks even more highly of them if the similarities are totally coincidental.

Even though the comic references are there, BR throws people off given the manner in which Tim presented it all. It leads people to think Burton didn't understand the characters and was simply indulging himself. The ambience is so pervasive that some will not be convinced of its connection to the material. It's so much a Burton film but it's also so much a Batman film, which is what makes it so uniquely impressive.

Quote from: Kamdan on Sat, 30 Jul  2022, 23:21Writers also have to be careful in these areas because it could be used as citation for a lawsuit. James Cameron experience that with Terminator when he cited Outer Limits episodes as his inspiration and Harlan Ellison jumped on that with how his work closely resembled Cameron's. This was something Cameron made sure he acknowledged for Avatar and cited Dances with Wolves writer Michael Blake in the credits to avoid another similar situation.

This reminds me of a story I heard about J K Rowling's first book signing in the US. Huge lines of people showed up for her autograph, but every now and then someone would present her with an envelope to sign instead of a book. Whenever this happened, security would step in to escort the person out of the line. Eventually Rowling asked what the deal was with the envelopes, and it was explained to her that they each contained a written idea concerning a potential plot point that might occur in a future Harry Potter book. If she then happened to use that idea in one of her novels, the owner of the envelope would sue her. And he/she would have Rowling's signature and fingerprints on the envelope to prove that she'd handled their idea.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon,  1 Aug  2022, 12:39Could be. One of the selling points of SBTCB is the Kevin Maguire covers. I had never seen his art before (because I wasn't following Justice League at the time). But a lot of those old Superboy covers that Maguire did are amazing. Strangely enough, a lot of Maguire fans are totally unaware of his Superboy covers, so it's always a treat for them when they discover them.

It's weird that this series isn't better known. I've been looking at the covers on Comic Vine, and they're really good. It's the sort of forgotten series I'd buy if it was reprinted in a modern collection. There were only 17 issues, so they could probably fit the whole series in just one or two volumes. Curt Swan's involvement alone would be enough to draw interest from Superman fans who didn't get a chance to read these comics when they were first published.

I must sit down and watch the Superboy series right the way through some time. I remember watching it back when it first aired in the late eighties, and I saw some episodes on YouTube a few years ago. But I still haven't seen most of them.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  2 Aug  2022, 11:05
Even though the comic references are there, BR throws people off given the manner in which Tim presented it all. It leads people to think Burton didn't understand the characters and was simply indulging himself. The ambience is so pervasive that some will not be convinced of its connection to the material. It's so much a Burton film but it's also so much a Batman film, which is what makes it so uniquely impressive.

True. Many of the most interesting comic book adaptations, whether films or TV shows, are the ones where the makers put a distinctive idiosyncratic spin on the material. Unfortunately haters can use that idiosyncratic style as an easy point of attack. The important thing is whether or not the essence of the material is intact, and whether it's interesting and memorable. In the case of Batman Returns, I'd say the essence of the characters remains true to the source material, and the idiosyncratic elements are definitely interesting.

Batman being chased by police after being mistaken as a murder
Detective comics no.36 Feb 1940
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3x6GjKS/1673738756875-2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0Fc2NxX/1673738782880-2.jpg)