The Batman SPOILER Thread!

[Travesty]

This is for all things spoilers. With the movie coming out soon, I know there's spoiler to be had, along with this thread to be free to those who have seen the movie around the release date. No need to white out your texts, just let it rip. The title is a clear indicator.

[Travesty]

I'll be staying out of this thread until I've seen the movie, but I thought it would be nice to have this. I'll be here once the movie comes out, so I can talk freely without worrying about spoiling anything for anybody else.

[The Dark Knight]

I'll be staying out of this thread until I've seen the movie, but I thought it would be nice to have this. I'll be here once the movie comes out, so I can talk freely without worrying about spoiling anything for anybody else.

Good idea. I'm ready to avoid new footage and details now, too. I'm all for promotion but I think they need to pull back on revealing too much in the TV spots. But what they're showing does look special. Not long to go...

[Travesty]

The Joker was an obvious callback, but did you notice Hush and the venom(Bane)?

[The Dark Knight]

Before anyone reads on, a reminder this post is full of SPOILERS in the SPOILER THREAD.

I caught the Hush reference. As for the other, it could be adrenaline or venom. I think that's a question for Matt Reeves. On another point, my initial impression was the woman who answers the phone inside Wayne Tower, Dory played by Sandra Dickinson, was a nod to Harriet from the 1966 TV show.

Some similarities between Batman and The Riddler I picked up on:

Both orphans
Spy on people
Journal (Bruce with a notepad, Edward a webcam)
Attack from the shadows
Want to clean up the city

Nashton thought Batman would understand his crusade, just as Carrey's Nygma thought Kilmer would understand. He was inspired by Batman's darkness, but misread him. Along with all of Riddler's followers. They saw him as vengeance without any nuance, which Batman now knows he must work on. Rescuing the people from the floodwaters is a step towards being thought of more as a hero, and he's already the only Batman other than Clooney to have a clean record with killing. Like other incarnations, we see the effect Batman has on other people in terms of escalation.

We have detective work and mystery that builds to a payoff, and that's the flooding sequence. The literal washing away of the city's filth as Nashton views it as irredeemable. I believe the barriers he destroys were also funded by the Renewal project, which he has disdain for. In his mind they shouldn't even be there. The movie flows together so well that this segment felt like a natural evolution. I also like that this universe has Arkham and the villains so far aren't being killed off. Like the comics they're exisiting in perpetuity.

I like that Riddler gets captured because he accepts that's a certainty after he shoots Falcone. The film doesn't repeat the "he planned to be caught" trope of the Nolan era and see Nashton mount a daring escape from custody. He simply left behind clues and video for investigators to find, so the game can continue. I appreciated that detail. It also allows the Riddler to become a martyr figure in his own right as his followers are motivated to complete his mission in his abscence. Even though he's killing people, the film doesn't forget The Riddler's biggest weapon is his mind.

The letter bomb scene with Alfred made me nervous. Before seeing the movie I long thought there was a chance he could die, so when this sequence started I was expecting the worst. It wouldn't have been out of character for this universe to isolate Bruce even more. But I was thankful to see him pull through. I'm perfectly okay with how little Alfred we received here. We didn't see him because Bruce didn't - he was too busy out on the street. I'd like to see them interact a little more in the sequels though, and Bruce to start engaging with his company as Alfred wants.

The revelation about Thomas Wayne is a palatable balance. Thomas ordered intimidation (still not acceptable) but not murder. Falcone was in the blackmail business. That works for me. This also comments on Bruce's own darkness and the balance he must strike in his war on crime. This Bruce can't afford to go over the edge and have life be taken, because like most other incarnations, it's a line he believes once crossed tarnishes his soul. Martha having mental health issues gives an element of explanation behind Bruce's behavior. It goes to what the Telltale games did - children have romantic visions of their parents while the truth can be somewhat different.

The opening sequence of the Mayor inside his apartment playing with his son evokes the start of B89 in the way we could very well be watching Bruce and his family interacting before an untimely incident. I like how they have Bruce living in a skyscraper too, with the basement terminal area substituting the traditional cave. It really sets this world apart from the rest. I'd like the sequels to explore this environement further. It makes me question how a vehicles like planes, helicopters or boats could be utilized from here though. Perhaps the train tunnels lead to different areas of the city where they are securely stored and then launched. That would be a nice touch.

I dig the low key ending to the movie. Batman goes his way, Selina goes hers. She drives away first, clearly more eager to move on. The closeup of Batman as he watches her disappear into the rear view mirror, before his eyes look forward intently on the road in front of him is subtle but powerful. It says a lot about the Batman/Catwoman relationship and who Batman is. He has emotions but suppresses them. He's wedded to his city and the fight goes on.

[Silver Nemesis]

The Joker was an obvious callback, but did you notice Hush and the venom(Bane)?

I spotted the Hush reference, but I assumed the substance Batman injected himself with was some kind of adrenaline boost rather than Venom.

I was surprised by the Joker cameo. I heard someone in one of the rows behind me saying "There are too many Jokers now." I'm inclined to agree. In the last few years there have been two different versions of the Joker in the Gotham TV show, the Jared Leto Joker, the Joaquin Phoenix Joker, the Barry Keoghan Joker, a new version of the Joker in the Batwoman series, and now the possibility of the Jack Napier Joker getting resurrected in some form. And that's to say nothing of all the animated Jokers.

If it were up to me, I'd ban the Joker from appearing in any more live action TV shows for the foreseeable future and I'd retire the Leto Joker permanently. I liked Phoenix's Joker film, but I'm still not sold on the idea of a sequel. I think it would be better to leave that as a standalone movie. I'd keep the Joker out of any future DCEU films, unless it's the Napier Joker in Batman Beyond. That way the only live action Joker over the next few years would be Keoghan's version, if indeed Reeves intends for him to return. Though I wouldn't mind if he didn't.

I trust Reeves to do something interesting with the Joker if he does decide to use him, but I'd rather he avoid villains that Nolan used unless there's a good chance he'll present a superior version of them. I didn't mind Reeves using Catwoman, since I thought his take on the character was better than Nolan's. Nolan's Carmine Falcone was acceptable as a generic mob boss, but Reeves' Carmine felt closer to the comic book version thanks to the Selina Kyle connection. Nolan never used Penguin or Riddler, but if he had done I imagine he would have gone in a similar direction as Reeves did.

But when it comes to the Joker I'm sceptical of anyone topping, or even matching, Ledger and Phoenix. It might be better to reserve the Reevesverse Joker as a minor background player for now, then possibly use him as the main villain in the trilogy's final film. I also don't particularly want to see Reeves tackle Bane, as I thought Nolan did a pretty decent (but not definitive) job with him. The Nolanverse Ra's al Ghul wouldn't be too hard to top, but if we're going to have a shadowy organisation feature prominently in Reeves' trilogy then I'd rather it be the Court of Owls than the League of Assassins. I'd be cool with him presenting a new take on Scarecrow though, as I was never a huge fan of Murphy's version. Two-Face... I'm not sure about. I like Eckhart's version, but I wouldn't object to Reeves presenting a more gangster interpretation of Dent. Now that Gil Colson's dead, there's going to be a vacancy in the DA's office. It might be interesting to have Dent show up in the sequel but not become Two-Face. Just have him serve as an ally for Batman and Gordon. I'd be down with that.

But in general, I'd prefer Reeves to present his own take on comic villains that Nolan didn't use. He did such a great job with Penguin and especially Riddler, and I'd love to see him reinvent other classic rogues in a similar way. Hush would be an obvious pick and has already been teased (it can't be a coincidence that the word 'Hush' flashed on screen while the Riddler was talking about a man named Elliot). Black Mask would also fit in well with the Reevesverse. The DCEU version from Birds of Prey was dreadful, so the sooner we get a new version to rinse away the bad taste of that movie the better. Other villains that might work well in the Reevesverse: Mad Hatter, Deadshot, Hugo Strange, Doctor Hurt and the Black Glove, Professor Pyg, the Barton Mathis Dollmaker, Ratcatcher, Amygdala, the Crime Doctor, Rupert Thorne, Owlman, Lady Shiva, Deacon Blackfire, Tony Zucco, the Mutant gang, the Judson Caspian Reaper, Lew Moxon and the Holiday Killer. Perhaps even some more fantastical foes like Clayface, Man-Bat and Mister Freeze. But my top pick right now would be the Court of Owls.

The one villain I absolutely positively do not want to appear is Harley Quinn. I've grown to hate that character in recent years, and her irritating brand of Deadpool-wannabe humour would be a poor fit for the serious tone of Reeves' films.

[The Dark Knight]

However, to go off of your final point this movie is billing itself as a murder mystery detective story, but I didn't really think that Batman was key in solving anything. It's the same problem I have with Mask of the Phantasm where you could remove Batman from this story and Riddlers plan would still play out in the same way.

Batman solves the riddles left on the bodies, but a few of the answers are simple statements like "he lies still". Much like a later message of "see you in hell" or even "what's black and blue and dead all over? You." The latter of which has a meaning but is already a done deal that cannot be stopped.

Batman solves two riddles for the collar bomb, but had to rely on the DA to answer the third. He wouldn't do it. The fixation on the Penguin is what blinds them to Falcone, which does allow to show who the Penguin is as a character. Based on Penguin's comments, Batman works out the URL riddle and finds the website. He discovers the Orphanage location, and that Bruce Wayne is the next target.

The way I see things, the Riddler doesn't want his plan to be stopped, he simply wants to expose corruption and kill those responsible. He didn't leave much wiggle room, if any. Riddler is ahead of the game as he is running it, but I don't think Batman is made to look useless mentally.

I was surprised by the Joker cameo. I heard someone in one of the rows behind me saying "There are too many Jokers now." I'm inclined to agree. In the last few years there have been two different versions of the Joker in the Gotham TV show, the Jared Leto Joker, the Joaquin Phoenix Joker, the Barry Keoghan Joker, a new version of the Joker in the Batwoman series, and now the possibility of the Jack Napier Joker getting resurrected in some form. And that's to say nothing of all the animated Jokers.

If it were up to me, I'd ban the Joker from appearing in any more live action TV shows for the foreseeable future and I'd retire the Leto Joker permanently. I liked Phoenix's Joker film, but I'm still not sold on the idea of a sequel. I think it would be better to leave that as a standalone movie. I'd keep the Joker out of any future DCEU films, unless it's the Napier Joker in Batman Beyond. That way the only live action Joker over the next few years would be Keoghan's version, if indeed Reeves intends for him to return. Though I wouldn't mind if he didn't.

I trust Reeves to do something interesting with the Joker if he does decide to use him, but I'd rather he avoid villains that Nolan used unless there's a good chance he'll present a superior version of them. I didn't mind Reeves using Catwoman, since I thought his take on the character was better than Nolan's. Nolan's Carmine Falcone was acceptable as a generic mob boss, but Reeves' Carmine felt closer to the comic book version thanks to the Selina Kyle connection. Nolan never used Penguin or Riddler, but if he had done I imagine he would have gone in a similar direction as Reeves did.

Reeves said he's not sure if he'll even use The Joker in his other films - the scene is there to solidify Selina's line about Gotham getting worse in the future. To say there will always be a villain ready to emerge at some point down the line with their own agenda. Reeves said this version didn't fall into acid or cut a smile, he was born with a smile deformation, and he hasn't mentally snapped all the way just yet. I'm cool with that - and would like to see the Court of Owls or even Mr Freeze as has been bandied about.

[BatmanFurst]

However, to go off of your final point this movie is billing itself as a murder mystery detective story, but I didn't really think that Batman was key in solving anything. It's the same problem I have with Mask of the Phantasm where you could remove Batman from this story and Riddlers plan would still play out in the same way.

Batman solves the riddles left on the bodies, but a few of the answers are simple statements like "he lies still". Much like a later message of "see you in hell" or even "what's black and blue and dead all over? You." The latter of which has a meaning but is already a done deal that cannot be stopped.

Batman solves two riddles for the collar bomb, but had to rely on the DA to answer the third. He wouldn't do it. The fixation on the Penguin is what blinds them to Falcone, which does allow to show who the Penguin is as a character. Based on Penguin's comments, Batman works out the URL riddle and finds the website. He discovers the Orphanage location, and that Bruce Wayne is the next target.

The way I see things, the Riddler doesn't want his plan to be stopped, he simply wants to expose corruption and kill those responsible. He didn't leave much wiggle room, if any. Riddler is ahead of the game as he is running it, but I don't think Batman is made to look useless mentally.

I was surprised by the Joker cameo. I heard someone in one of the rows behind me saying "There are too many Jokers now." I'm inclined to agree. In the last few years there have been two different versions of the Joker in the Gotham TV show, the Jared Leto Joker, the Joaquin Phoenix Joker, the Barry Keoghan Joker, a new version of the Joker in the Batwoman series, and now the possibility of the Jack Napier Joker getting resurrected in some form. And that's to say nothing of all the animated Jokers.

If it were up to me, I'd ban the Joker from appearing in any more live action TV shows for the foreseeable future and I'd retire the Leto Joker permanently. I liked Phoenix's Joker film, but I'm still not sold on the idea of a sequel. I think it would be better to leave that as a standalone movie. I'd keep the Joker out of any future DCEU films, unless it's the Napier Joker in Batman Beyond. That way the only live action Joker over the next few years would be Keoghan's version, if indeed Reeves intends for him to return. Though I wouldn't mind if he didn't.

I trust Reeves to do something interesting with the Joker if he does decide to use him, but I'd rather he avoid villains that Nolan used unless there's a good chance he'll present a superior version of them. I didn't mind Reeves using Catwoman, since I thought his take on the character was better than Nolan's. Nolan's Carmine Falcone was acceptable as a generic mob boss, but Reeves' Carmine felt closer to the comic book version thanks to the Selina Kyle connection. Nolan never used Penguin or Riddler, but if he had done I imagine he would have gone in a similar direction as Reeves did.

Reeves said he's not sure if he'll even use The Joker in his other films - the scene is there to solidify Selina's line about Gotham getting worse in the future. To say there will always be a villain ready to emerge at some point down the line with their own agenda. Reeves said this version didn't fall into acid or cut a smile, he was born with a smile deformation, and he hasn't mentally snapped all the way just yet. I'm cool with that - and would like to see the Court of Owls or even Mr Freeze as has been bandied about.

Yeah I was waiting for Batman to get ahead of Riddler at some point, but it seems to be more about just letting his plan come to its eventual conclusion. Also, I was let down that Batman himself didn't figure out what happened with the reporter. The investigative aspect of this film was one of my chief complaints. I really enjoyed it overall though.

[thecolorsblend]

Bludhaven, the possible Venom, Hush, that stuff was like candy for me.

Technically, gushing about the score isn't a spoiler. But still, it seemed better for me to post about it here. I haven't listened to Giacchino's score in isolation from the film. But in the context of the film, I'd say Giacchino's work is competitive with Elfman as the best Batman music anybody has ever made. High praise indeed. I particularly love the new Batman theme and I hope it is reprised in any possible sequels.

As to sequels... well, it may be out of scope for this thread. But there are many directions suggested just by this first movie. The Joker, Bane, the Penguin (as a primary baddie), Hush or a return engagement with the Riddler are all possibilities here.

Speaking of, I rather liked the ambiguous monologue from the end of the movie. "There's more *I* can do". That could mean a reevaluation of his Batman activities. Or it could also mean a reevaluation of Bruce as a public identity. Charity, philanthropy, etc. Either (or both) are fertile ground for a sequel.

I understand the argument that the movie went on about twenty minutes too long, that incarcerating the Riddler is the natural end of the story. And honestly, for all I know, that may even be true. But the jailing of the Riddler is not the end of Bruce's character arc in the movie. So, on that basis, the film needed Batman to rescue the people in order for him to have his epiphany later on. So, I think the criticisms about the movie going on too long are apt, but flawed. That line of thinking is just plain wrongheaded.

Finally, I reiterate my preference that the Reevesverse be its own thing, independent of anything else related to the DCEU or even other DC characters. Reeves has created a rich tapestry for Batman to exist within and I don't want non-Batman characters to detract from whatever Reeves is going for. He needs and deserves this independence.

That's what I've got for now.

[thecolorsblend]

That's what I've got for now.

Oh, something else.

One thing that made me nervous about the trailers was an inexperienced Batman palling around with GCPD. Privately, I thought to myself "There's no way it would be that easy. SOMEBODY wouldn't appreciate a civilian/vigilante having the run of a crime scene. And they'd make no secret of that."

Well, the movie tackled that directly and repeatedly. Batman's inclusion was controversial to a lot of cops at first. But by the end of the movie, it's obvious that they have started accepting him. And that works for me. In fact, of everything in the movie, Batman's evolving relationship with GCPD is one of the more successful elements, ultimately. So, obviously my initial reluctance was misplaced.