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To me, he was poorly written and TLJ wanted to be over-the-top so he could steal the spotlight away for Jim Carrey, and as a result we got a generic villain that is Two-Face in name only.

There was a scene deleted from the final cut with Two-Face escaping Arkham. It was replaced with Alfred asking Batman to take a sandwich.... shows just how far the WB would go to make a film more marketable. The only thing that I liked was his final phrase to Bruce, a hint at their friendship which was missing from the rest of the film.


I think the movie would've worked better with a serious Two-Face and campy Riddler.


Thoughts?

I pretty much agree with your entire post Edd.  As far as comic-book movies go I'm glad that TLJ had a chance to redeem himself with 'Captain America' where he was very well-cast as the military man who trains Steve Rogers.  However, as fine an actor as TLJ is he was dreadful in 'Batman Forever' IMHO.  Like you state, Two-Face should not have been portrayed in a campy manner and it's a pity that this version of Two-Face ultimately came across as a bad copy of Jack Nicholson's Joker.

To be fair to TLJ it was the writing of the character as much as the performance that was at fault.  Two-Face perhaps above any other Bat-villain requires sufficient screen-time given over to his back-story.  Without seeing what kind of man Two-Face was before his transformation we don't get a sense of the fundamental tragedy that drives this character.  Some argue that 'TDK' focused too much on Harvey Dent giving too little screen-time to a post-transformation Two-Face but be that as it may 'TDK' got the balance down far better than 'Batman Forever' which only merits an extremely brief TV flashback scene to a pre-Two Face Dent.  Perhaps if Schumacher had not decided that Billy Dee Williams was 'too heroic' to play Two-Face (thus fundamentally missing the essence of the one-time idealistic and crusading DA and the extent of his tragedy) it wouldn't have mattered that such scant screen-time was given over to the pre-Two Face Dent since we would have already identified with the character, and importantly Billy Dee Williams' specific portrayal of the character, from 'Batman '89'. 

I think TDK gave too little time to Two-Face as well, but it was arguably much better than Batman Forever. At least 2008 Two-Face would never flip the coin until he got what he wanted. TLJ looked silly doing that and it's something the real Two-Face would never do.

But the Batman TAS two-parter "Two-Face" still reigns supreme for me. It was awesome.

Eh, aesthetically TLJ is more in line with what I want to see from Two Face. As far as characterization goes, neither rings entirely true... but Schumacher's is much closer to the mark than Nolan's ever thought about being. Nolan's Two Face came off as a guy who wanted a pound of flesh. Schumacher suggested a split personality. Neither of 'em is definitive but TLJ has it by a mile in my book.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 16 Jul  2013, 12:10
Eh, aesthetically TLJ is more in line with what I want to see from Two Face. As far as characterization goes, neither rings entirely true... but Schumacher's is much closer to the mark than Nolan's ever thought about being. Nolan's Two Face came off as a guy who wanted a pound of flesh. Schumacher suggested a split personality. Neither of 'em is definitive but TLJ has it by a mile in my book.

Sorry but aesthetically TLJ is nothing like how I see Harvey Dent.  Sure he's got the black hair but that's hardly a defining factor.

Harvey Dent should be a crusading, decent but nevertheless somewhat preening and vain pretty boy IMHO who loses his once good-looks as well as his sanity when he is scarred by Boss Maroni.  TLJ was a craggy-faced old dude even by 1995.  I always thought Harvey was meant to be Bruce's contemporary or at least only a few years older.  Although BDW is over a decade older than Michael Keaton he's a handsome chap so I bought that they were of around the same generation and might even have been friends, possibly at college.  The same applies to Aaron Eckhart and Christian Bale who are only separated in age by a few years.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 16 Jul  2013, 12:18

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 16 Jul  2013, 12:10
Eh, aesthetically TLJ is more in line with what I want to see from Two Face. As far as characterization goes, neither rings entirely true... but Schumacher's is much closer to the mark than Nolan's ever thought about being. Nolan's Two Face came off as a guy who wanted a pound of flesh. Schumacher suggested a split personality. Neither of 'em is definitive but TLJ has it by a mile in my book.

Sorry but aesthetically TLJ is nothing like how I see Harvey Dent.  Sure he's got the black hair but that's hardly a defining factor.

Harvey Dent should be a crusading, decent but nevertheless somewhat preening and vain pretty boy IMHO who loses his once good-looks as well as his sanity when he is scarred by Boss Maroni.  TLJ was a craggy-faced old dude even by 1995.  I always thought Harvey was meant to be Bruce's contemporary or at least only a few years older.  Although BDW is over a decade older than Michael Keaton he's a handsome chap so I bought that they were of around the same generation and might even have been friends, possibly at college.  The same applies to Aaron Eckhart and Christian Bale who are only separated in age by a few years.

Mmm.

Good thing I mentioned the aesthetics of "Two Face" and not "Harvey Dent" then, right? :D

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 16 Jul  2013, 13:09

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 16 Jul  2013, 12:18

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 16 Jul  2013, 12:10
Eh, aesthetically TLJ is more in line with what I want to see from Two Face. As far as characterization goes, neither rings entirely true... but Schumacher's is much closer to the mark than Nolan's ever thought about being. Nolan's Two Face came off as a guy who wanted a pound of flesh. Schumacher suggested a split personality. Neither of 'em is definitive but TLJ has it by a mile in my book.

Sorry but aesthetically TLJ is nothing like how I see Harvey Dent.  Sure he's got the black hair but that's hardly a defining factor.

Harvey Dent should be a crusading, decent but nevertheless somewhat preening and vain pretty boy IMHO who loses his once good-looks as well as his sanity when he is scarred by Boss Maroni.  TLJ was a craggy-faced old dude even by 1995.  I always thought Harvey was meant to be Bruce's contemporary or at least only a few years older.  Although BDW is over a decade older than Michael Keaton he's a handsome chap so I bought that they were of around the same generation and might even have been friends, possibly at college.  The same applies to Aaron Eckhart and Christian Bale who are only separated in age by a few years.

Mmm.

Good thing I mentioned the aesthetics of "Two Face" and not "Harvey Dent" then, right? :D

;D  Fair dos.  But that bright pick/purple plastic Power Rangers villain makeup TLJ sports as Two-Face doesn't work for me either.

But out of curiosity what is it about TLJ's look as Two-Face that works for you better than Aaron Eckhart in 'TDK'?

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 16 Jul  2013, 13:23But out of curiosity what is it about TLJ's look as Two-Face that works for you better than Aaron Eckhart in 'TDK'?

First, the realism angle. Somebody that injured is going to be "crippled" (in the other sense of the word) for life. The pain would be unsupportable, Dent would probably still be in shock after his ordeal (certainly he'd be too doped up on painkillers we've never even heard of) and his eye (missing an eyelid as it is) would rot and fall out long before he settled Maroni's hash. Nolan and his fans don't get to play the "it's a comic book" and/or "suspend disbelief" cards here either because (1) he was the one with the bright idea of setting this stuff in the real world; all I'm expecting is that he play by his own rules (2) it's the filmmaker's job to enable the audience to suspend their disbelief; it's not the audience's responsibility to create that for themselves and (3) that excuse works for stuff like glasses tricking people into believing you're someone else as a condition precedent for buying into the story; if you can't believe that, the rest of the film won't work for you either. But SOD can't cover you on basic clinical facts in a story where everything else is pretty realistic down the line.

To me, the acid thing works because who's to say there weren't other chemicals mixed in that not only burned his face but also colored and disfigured the skin tissue? In fact, I'd give TLJ's Two Face an extra nod for the character's skin being purple, which seems more "naturalistic" (given what we're talking about) than the green skin he had in comics for decades. Worst case, Schumacher is in a position to use the "it's a comic book" line because, hey, it is. He's being entirely consistent with his own reality. "So you can believe Batman can swing around from a helicopter without his arms being ripped from their sockets but the scarred half of Two Face takes you out of the story???"

My preference isn't even competitive when you come down to it. Game, set, match: Jones.

I have to admit, those Two-Face posters for Batman Forever look great. But when you actually see him acting up in the film.... ;D

Well I can't say I agree with you colors but I respect your POV.  It's not a popular one but its rarity makes it all the more interesting and genuine.  Even though I'm a fan of the Nolan films I still get tired of the 'In Nolan We Trust' mantra which dictates that his Batman films are beyond criticism so it's always refreshing to read the opinions of someone who prefers the Schumacher films.

I'm torn between the two (no pun intended).

I appreciate what Eckhardt gave us with his performance and I adore the effects on him, but at the same time he's barely in TDK and the motivations aren't what I'd like. His obsession with dichotomy is barely scratched and I'll be honest, I love the corny two-themed stuff from the traditional depiction, which is missing from Nolan's in an attempt to be less silly.

Now, would I have preferred Jones to act less manic? Obviously. But considering how recently I've read a lot of Two-Face comics from the 70s/80s and even 90s where its implied Harvey acts manic? It suddenly put Jones' act within the realm of acceptability. And it's not like it's not still effective. If any vicious killer was acting that manic and unpredictable around you in reality? It'd be pretty scary. In reality, I think it's B:TAS that invented the 'calmer' Two-Face portrayal as the standard, so I can't fault TLJ up to a certain point.

He had the dial cranked to 11. He just should have pulled back to 10 or 9.

So I have to give it to Jones as well, simply because the specifics of his portrayal are more like the comic book from the get-go. It's just in the level of intensity where it begins to drop off.

everyone was acting over the top but in a good way. it was a fun good movie and idk what most of the actors experiences were (i think i read that val once slugged joel schumacher lol) but watching it you get the sense that they were having fun acting out whereas b&r, you get the sense that they were asking themselves "what the f*** are we doing? i am getting paid for this, RIGHT?" lol. tlj is such a grumpy ass that maybe the old fart needed to have a little bit of fun for a change too.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 16 Jul  2013, 16:48Well I can't say I agree with you colors but I respect your POV.  It's not a popular one but its rarity makes it all the more interesting and genuine.  Even though I'm a fan of the Nolan films I still get tired of the 'In Nolan We Trust' mantra which dictates that his Batman films are beyond criticism

And I'm trying to avoid picking on Nolan's films just because they're so dear to a lot of people and thus make such an easy target. His trilogy is over, the time for all the pain and anger and vitriol is past so there's no sense losing your mind about his movies on Internet forums anymore.

Relax Val, we're selling toys - Joel Schumacher  :D

I just want to add my 2 cents on TLJ as Two-Face.

People forget that the Two-Face in Batman Forever is late in his career.  When we first see him, it has already been 2 years since Batman first captured him ("2nd anniversary of the day I captured him").  He had already spent much of that time locked up in Arkham Asylum.  So this version of Two-Face is a little bit more insane.

Two-Face in The Dark Knight had just become Two-Face.. and unfortunately was killed off soon after which I won't get into..

My personal opinion is that TLJ is a great actor, and I had no problems with his performance as Two-Face.  My only problem is that he is overshadowed by The Riddler for the second half of the movie.  TLJ does great over the top villains, as he did in Under Siege (where he played a terrorist/hijacker) a few years earlier and Blown Away (mad bomber).  If you watch those other performances then his performance as Two-Face doesn't seem that out of place.  Besides, it fit the tone of the movie.

And if you read many of the 1940s Two-Face comics, the character is just as over the top as he is in Batman Forever.  In fact many scenes of Two-Face are directly from the comics.

Quote from: OutRiddled on Sat,  9 Apr  2016, 00:55
I just want to add my 2 cents on TLJ as Two-Face.

People forget that the Two-Face in Batman Forever is late in his career.  When we first see him, it has already been 2 years since Batman first captured him ("2nd anniversary of the day I captured him").  He had already spent much of that time locked up in Arkham Asylum.  So this version of Two-Face is a little bit more insane.

Two-Face in The Dark Knight had just become Two-Face.. and unfortunately was killed off soon after which I won't get into..

My personal opinion is that TLJ is a great actor, and I had no problems with his performance as Two-Face.  My only problem is that he is overshadowed by The Riddler for the second half of the movie.  TLJ does great over the top villains, as he did in Under Siege (where he played a terrorist/hijacker) a few years earlier and Blown Away (mad bomber).  If you watch those other performances then his performance as Two-Face doesn't seem that out of place.  Besides, it fit the tone of the movie.

And if you read many of the 1940s Two-Face comics, the character is just as over the top as he is in Batman Forever.  In fact many scenes of Two-Face are directly from the comics.

I suppose you make a valid point. But I think the point of contention some people might have with Two-Face isn't because a little bit more insane, but rather he's too over-the-top for their tastes.

Personally, I thought the movie already had an over-the-top villain in the Riddler, and I would've preferred a more serious Two-Face to contrast the partnership.

Every time I see his introduction of his character (right before the reveal of his scar side) I keep thinking how he should of stuck with that performance. Even when he meets riddler for the first time wasnt that bad

An angry, irritated TLJ would've been a sight to behold. He can do that as good as anybody.

He had some moments of seriousness but this is Batman Forever we're talking about.  It largely follows the format of the 60s show where the villains are campy and over the top.  I don't know if a 'serious' Two-Face (like Aaron Eckhardt) would work alongside Jim Carrey's Riddler.

TBH my favourite version is the BTAS Two-Face.  But as far as live-action goes, Tommy is my favourite by far.  I think his performance is unfairly criticised.  I like it more than Carrey's Riddler.  Plus he was in some really good action scenes.

BTAS' Two-Face is excellent and still the best. Eckhart was good as Dent, however the Two-Face side of things didn't satify my tastes. In some ways, I think the character needs to be reclaimed. He's okay in the Arkham games, I guess. But more or less became the butt of the joke. He became Catwoman's easy target.

The main problem to me is that TLJ tried out out Jim Carrey Jim Carrey. I'm not sure how much Schumacher intervened but it was reported Carrey and Jones kept trying to out do each other. I just don't like that version of Two face, he's a tragic, brilliant, villain with a motive and I don't feel any of it got captured, it seemed to me he was just a cheap joker knock off. There were so many ways he could have taken that character. I also felt they should have used the coin more as that's his key trait. I

He did use the coin 5 times in the movie (during the bank robbery, in the circus, at his hideout, at Wayne Manor and at Riddler's lair).

So, everyone saying Two Face should have been dark and serious maybe don't know about Two-Face's earlier appearances where he was an over the top villain.

(https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/751735.jpg)

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 17 Apr  2016, 01:01
An angry, irritated TLJ would've been a sight to behold. He can do that as good as anybody.

With no acting required since that's his natural personality.

Two-Face is terrible as an adaptation of the comics; if you pretend he was an original character he's still bad but not that bad. I think he does have a pretty interesting relationship and some chemistry with the Riddler, though, and I'm not sure a real serious Two-Face would have worked well in that duo.

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Tue, 16 Jul  2013, 11:39
I think TDK gave too little time to Two-Face as well, but it was arguably much better than Batman Forever. At least 2008 Two-Face would never flip the coin until he got what he wanted. TLJ looked silly doing that and it's something the real Two-Face would never do.

I don't think either portrayal of two face has been true to the character. I didn't like the added trait of two face flipping the coin multiple times either, the point of the character is that he will unquestionably accept the result of the coin and this isn't a character who's backstory can be glossed over as quickly as Schumacher did.

I've stated several times that there's not much difference between Nolan's handling of Harvey Dent/Two face and Sam Raimi's handling of Eddie Brock/Venom in Spider-man 3 yet only one of these directors seems to get called out for that. Did Harvey even survive a full day after escaping from the hospital? For a series which prides itself on being grounded and gritty, I found two faces look to be far from believable. Without an eyelid, his eye would have been irritated to the point that he wouldn't be able to see (the average human blinks 6-10 times per minute, try holding your eyelids open to prevent yourself from blinking, you'll see what I mean) likewise his mouth would be irritated with the amount of particles getting in there due to the lack of lips on one side and his speech also has not been affected.

I think it actually kind of makes sense that, having been the district attorney, on turning evil and crazy Dent *would* be pretty influenced by the (Nicholson) Joker. A lot of the portrayal still feels annoying thought.

Going back to this, I'm still not a big fan of Batman Forever's Two-Face. Aesthetically Tommy Lee Jones was great, if only he wasn't that over-the-top with the comedy he could've been awesome.

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Fri, 14 Feb  2020, 14:53
Going back to this, I'm still not a big fan of Batman Forever's Two-Face. Aesthetically Tommy Lee Jones was great, if only he wasn't that over-the-top with the comedy he could've been awesome.

His performance is probably the worst thing about the film for me.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Mon, 17 Feb  2020, 17:50

Quote from: Edd Grayson on Fri, 14 Feb  2020, 14:53
Going back to this, I'm still not a big fan of Batman Forever's Two-Face. Aesthetically Tommy Lee Jones was great, if only he wasn't that over-the-top with the comedy he could've been awesome.

His performance is probably the worst thing about the film for me.

It works better when you imagine the acid seeped deep into his face, giving him brain permanent damage.

Whenever I think of TLJ's Two-Face, I can't help but think of his girlfriends, Sugar and Spice, being right there along with him.

(https://www.herbritts.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/D-05-16RAW-1017x1200.jpg)

At the same time, Sugar and Spice also makes me think of the Riddler's henchwomen, also introduced in 1995, Query and Echo.

(https://gothamcitybookclubhome.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/screen-shot-2019-03-17-at-10.54.17-pm.png)

Does anyone know if Query and Echo were based on Sugar and Spice?

I always thought the two pairs were synonymous, especially since one character is blonde and the other is dark-haired.

And it is odd that they were both introduced in 1995, hence why I wonder if they were created in some type of tandem.

I've wondered the same thing ever since I picked up a copy of Detective Comics Annual #8 back in 1995. From a drug store located within the local mall at that (hey remember those days?!?! *sigh*).

Being that DC Comics had to have received a copy of the Batman Forever script/story in order to produce the official movie/comic adaptation of the film (which I vaguely remember coming out in comic book stores a week or two before the movie even came out ... I distinctly remember getting the comic adaptation of Batman Returns, at a small magazine/book store, literally right before I saw the movie on opening day .... starting to feel old here jeez), I tend to lean towards there being at least some influence from the inclusion of Sugar & Spice, if even more from production photos rather than from the BF script, when it comes to the creation of Query & Echo.

Course, it's just speculation on my part, and don't have any proof of this. But the timing seems more than just coincidental. 

Could be coincidental. I think the idea works much better with Two Face as opposed to the Riddler, so the BF creative team made a wise decision in any case. I'm not sold on the idea of the Riddler having personal assistants. His crusade is a very different one. It's much more calculated and considered, devised in the silence of his lair. He has an ego like TLJ's Two-Face but it feels way more personal. He wouldn't want too many cooks diluting or distracting his vision. Two-Face started as the main threat of the film but by the end he was a passenger, joining Edward at Claw Island and probably becoming a slave to the box.

I personally think the two assistants work better with The Riddler than Two-Face (ignoring the 'two women for the two sides of Two-Face's personality' gimmick).

Two-Face, when portrayed properly (so not the goofy, exuberant Tommy Lee-Jones version) is a dark, brooding character consumed by a personal vendetta against injustice (and no longer particularly concerned with appearances), whereas The Riddler is a smart, yet egotistical, character who is desperate to prove his own intellectual superiority.  It therefore makes sense that he would surround himself with a pair of female lackies in order to boost his own ego and facilitate that sense of superiority.  He most likely has no amorous interest in them, being, along with The Scarecrow, one of Batman's most asexual rogues (I do like the idea that he has a latent homosexual crush on Batman/Bruce Wayne, as implied in Batman Forever, which is a significant driving factor in him needing to prove his superiority over an unrequited object of his affection), but just as Jim Carrey's Riddler uses Drew Barrymore's Sugar as an ornament to display the trappings of success (i.e. a beautiful woman) to the outside world, the comic-book Riddler needs Query and Echo by his side to demonstrate that he is a bigshot.

I'm mainly referring to the context of BF, but I do take your comments on board. Edward's plan was seemingly all devised in his apartment, before he had the haircut and introduced himself to Dent. That's the real man right there, with the rest being the spectacle playing out. Carreyler's hatred of Bruce feels more intense than Dent's hatred of Batman. I think the darker incarnations (which have been the recent trend) such as Earth One or the Arkham games are very much in the detached killer mould, with a focused narcissism. Carreyler embraced playboy persona aspects but he did remain his own man. He entered the world of crime as a loner and he remained that way, all the way to the Arkham prison cell.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Sun,  5 Apr  2020, 11:44
I personally think the two assistants work better with The Riddler than Two-Face (ignoring the 'two women for the two sides of Two-Face's personality' gimmick).

Two-Face, when portrayed properly (so not the goofy, exuberant Tommy Lee-Jones version) is a dark, brooding character consumed by a personal vendetta against injustice (and no longer particularly concerned with appearances), whereas The Riddler is a smart, yet egotistical, character who is desperate to prove his own intellectual superiority.  It therefore makes sense that he would surround himself with a pair of female lackies in order to boost his own ego and facilitate that sense of superiority.  He most likely has no amorous interest in them, being, along with The Scarecrow, one of Batman's most asexual rogues (I do like the idea that he has a latent homosexual crush on Batman/Bruce Wayne, as implied in Batman Forever, which is a significant driving factor in him needing to prove his superiority over an unrequited object of his affection), but just as Jim Carrey's Riddler uses Drew Barrymore's Sugar as an ornament to display the trappings of success (i.e. a beautiful woman) to the outside world, the comic-book Riddler needs Query and Echo by his side to demonstrate that he is a bigshot.

Makes sense, and from what I can recall, Riddler's relationship with both was rather nonerotic. I believe Query & Echo were also shown to be able to give answers to Ed's riddles, which, if anything, would atleast impress the guy who takes a lot of pride in that.

Another thing about Query & Echo's linkage with Sugar & Spice, is that there could very well be a case made for a "Comic Influence" being used on film with BF, and it coming full circle by re-introducing the original concept in comics. All in 1995 no less.

In the 1989 Secret Origins Special #1 (featuring Penguin, Two-Face, and Riddler), the notion of the Riddler having two hench women under his employment is briefly introduced in a photo.

(https://pm1.narvii.com/6482/d505160ad880b1686dcedfe0d44266ce58a6a5f7_hq.jpg)

However, it was Query and Probe rather than Query and Echo. I don't believe there was any other instances where this concept of Riddler having hench women was explored, until of course, in 1995 with the Detective Annual (where Probe was replaced with Echo) that was apart of the "Year One" stories that year. Corresponding with the debut of Sugar and Spice, in what was the biggest and successful comic book movie of that year.

I'd not connected Sugar and Spice with Query and Probe/Echo before now. But when you lay out their history like that, it does seem like the movie might have inspired the comic creators to revive those characters back in 1995.

Speaking of Nygma, I noticed something rather amusing when I re-watched Batman Forever back in February. Other people might have spotted this before, but I hadn't. And since it's not worth creating a thread about, I'll just post it here.

It's Edward's glasses.

Edward models his appearance on Bruce's when he attends the NygmaTech party. The glasses he wears during that scene are clearly not the same glasses he wore earlier in the film.


They do however match the gold-rimmed glasses Bruce is wearing. I'm not sure if they're literally the same design, but they look near enough. Also note that Nygma has dyed and styled his hair to match Bruce's.


As soon as Nygma notices that Bruce has donned his glasses to watch the demonstration of The Box, he hastily puts on his own glasses for no apparent reason.


And as soon as Bruce takes them off again, Nygma follows suit. Seemingly for no other reason than to copy Bruce.


There's nothing in the script about Nygma mirroring Bruce's body language, and I don't know if it was Schumacher's idea or just something Carrey improvised. Either way, it's a funny little detail that highlights just how petty and competitive Nygma is concerning Bruce. If Bruce went out and shaved his head, Edward would probably go and do the same thing just to one-up him.

One of the central themes in Batman Forever is psychological duality and the conflict between the Jungian archetypes of the Self, the Shadow and the Persona. With Bruce, the Persona – the socially acceptable part of himself that he projects to the public – is the playboy. The Shadow – the dark and socially unacceptable side of himself – is obviously the obsessive vigilante Batman. The Self, as he finally realises towards the end of the film, is the harmonious combination of these two.

Nygma's Shadow is the mentally-unstable nerd embodied in the Riddler, but his Persona is modelled almost entirely on Bruce's Persona. He dresses like him, does his hair in the same style, tries to emulate his corporate success and even does a poor attempt at imitating him in public. Because of this, the Riddler's Self is even more fragmented than Bruce's, because the side of himself he projects to the public isn't even really him – it's a reflection of the qualities he admires and envies in Bruce Wayne.

I think Schumacher's Riddler is a more layered character than many viewers realise.

Nygma is basically a stalker. His admiration for Bruce transformed into outright hatred.

It's a rather intelligent use of the necessity of having two villains in the movie. Two-Face's had a grudge against Batman while the Riddler had it out for Bruce. While Two-Face's hatred for Batman was straight forward and pure, Nygma's feelings about Bruce are more complex.

But yes, he's a stalker.

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  3 Apr  2020, 02:47
I've wondered the same thing ever since I picked up a copy of Detective Comics Annual #8 back in 1995. From a drug store located within the local mall at that (hey remember those days?!?! *sigh*).

I feel your pain. Back in those days, I used to buy some comics at a news agency inside the local supermarket as a kid. It wasn't until a year later that they stopped selling DC in favour of Marvel (specifically Spider-Man and X-Men) and Dark Horse. I guess such stores no longer selling comics can be a contributing factor behind the industry's current sales slump.

Quote from: The Joker on Sun,  5 Apr  2020, 14:21
Makes sense, and from what I can recall, Riddler's relationship with both was rather nonerotic. I believe Query & Echo were also shown to be able to give answers to Ed's riddles, which, if anything, would atleast impress the guy who takes a lot of pride in that.

Another thing about Query & Echo's linkage with Sugar & Spice, is that there could very well be a case made for a "Comic Influence" being used on film with BF, and it coming full circle by re-introducing the original concept in comics. All in 1995 no less.

In the 1989 Secret Origins Special #1 (featuring Penguin, Two-Face, and Riddler), the notion of the Riddler having two hench women under his employment is briefly introduced in a photo.

(https://pm1.narvii.com/6482/d505160ad880b1686dcedfe0d44266ce58a6a5f7_hq.jpg)

However, it was Query and Probe rather than Query and Echo. I don't believe there was any other instances where this concept of Riddler having hench women was explored, until of course, in 1995 with the Detective Annual (where Probe was replaced with Echo) that was apart of the "Year One" stories that year. Corresponding with the debut of Sugar and Spice, in what was the biggest and successful comic book movie of that year.

Riddler's henchwomen also appeared in another novel called Batman: Riddler - The Riddle Factory, which was also published in 1995. The only difference is the other girl who worked with Query was called Quiz. In addition to being henchwomen, they also starred as hostesses in Edward Nigma's pirate TV game show that exposed celebrities' dirty secrets.

Back on-topic with Two-Face, I found this fan site dedicated to BF, and it uploaded scans from a magazine called Imagi-Movies. Joel Schumacher was quoted explaining why he didn't get Billy Dee Williams to return to play Harvey Dent.

Quote from: Joel Schumacher
I didn't consider Billy Dee Wiliams, because I see him as a hero, like Clark Gable. I had just worked with Tommy Lee Jones on THE CLIENT and thought he would be great.

Source: https://www.1995batman.com/2019/07/magazine-article-imagi-movies-vol-3-no_26.html

It's probably nothing new, but I couldn't shake off the idea of Williams playing an evil character either. I know someone told me he appeared as a villain in a film with Sylvester Stallone once, but I've never watched it.

Has anybody else seen these pictures of Two-Face locked up in Arkham Asylum? Are these even real?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaqP3IxXYAQAquq?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaqP3ioXYAAAIth?format=jpg&name=900x900)

you follow nygmatech archives on insta too?  :)

I wasn't aware of that Instagram page until today. I found those pics on another site.

According to the Nygmatech Archives Instagram page, those photos took place before Two-Face escaped from Arkham Asylum.

It makes me wonder what other scenes have been kept hidden in a vault to this day.

I guess that scene is where Two-Face makes his escape. Guard enters his cell, Two-Face jumps him and then probably a cutaway to something else?

I saw somebody edited the Two-Face character poster by replacing Jones' face with Williams.

(https://i.redd.it/p7pkvu20zha71.jpg)

Good Photoshop manip, but that costume definitely doesn't suit Williams. The comic book look by Joe Quinones is much better.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMNV8oBXEAsIGFR.jpg)

I still think Billy Dee Williams would've been interesting. And Tommy Lee Jones could have played Two-Face differently. He was certainly capable.

Given the posts pertaining to Sugar and Spice in this thread, I'll just place this here.

Apparently, Sugar and Spice made a cameo appearance in the episode "Metamorphosis" from Season 4 of "Harley Quinn" animated series on Max.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F3xW3YLWUAAJdRY?format=jpg&name=large)