"Tim Burton's BATMAN"

[batass4880]

What do you think '89 would've been like if Tim Burton had full control over the movie like he did with Returns and was not being bossed around by Peters and Guber and could do whatever he wanted? If Burton had been the producer for the first film, do you think it would have been as good as the actual film? If so or not so, why?

[Paul (ral)]

I often think that Tim Burton did do what he wanted in 1988.

He got the Batman he wanted. He had the Joker be the killer of the Waynes.

People say Batman Returns is the film Tim made because he had full control, but isn't Returns the film Tim Burton made because he wanted to make something entirely different to 89?

[The Joker]

People say Batman Returns is the film Tim made because he had full control, but isn't Returns the film Tim Burton made because he wanted to make something entirely different to 89?

I think that's partly right. It's certainly understandable that director's do not want to do basic retread sequel's, which I'm sure was what Burton was initially thinking when plans for a followup was being brought up, which in effect resulted in Burton becoming much more interested only when WB began suggesting that "Batman II" become more of a "Tim Burton Movie".

Personally, I see it like this.

Batman 1989 = Keaton's favourite.

Batman Returns = More to Burton's liking despite being quite happy with '89.

[zDBZ]

People say Batman Returns is the film Tim made because he had full control, but isn't Returns the film Tim Burton made because he wanted to make something entirely different to 89?

Bingo.

Honestly, I think if Tim had won complete control over B89, the biggest differences would have been a more consistent tone and some marginal differences in the third act. The gangster/film noir style and the Citizen Kane approach to exploring Bruce/Batman were all aspects of Sam Hamm's script that he was behind. Batman Returns being so much more ethereal and Expressionistic is as much a reaction to having the first film's experience tainted by Peters and Gueber as it is Burton wanting to do something different with the sequel.

I also think that, if Tim had won complete control over the first film, we never would have gotten a second one from him, because he never would have felt like he hadn't been able to say all he wanted to say.

[Kamdan]

I believe we would have gotten mostly the last draft version of Sam Hamm?s script. Burton has often said that he went in thinking they were doing that until Peters came in and made the changes and eventually he made some too. I?ve been reading Hit and Run and I love how they said that Peters and Burton worked out the scene in Vicki?s apartment with Peters as Bruce and Burton as Vicki! 

[Batmoney]

I always felt that Burton's style fit Returns perfectly. It's hard to explain, but pretty much every Tim Burton movie has the Tim Burton trademark and look to it. Batman Returns still felt like a total Batman environment to me. I feel like Tim Burton's "style" fit Batman to a tee. To the point where I don't even notice it is a Tim Burton film.

[THE BAT-MAN]

I've always felt that if Tim was given full creative control over Batman.  The Joker would definitely have been more burtonesque.  We all know how extreme he went with the Penguin,  why should Joker be any different?  I believe that what we got in the film was a true depiction of a Bob Kane Joker, not a Burton Joker.  If I recall correctly, Tim didn't have much say regarding the look of the Joker whether it be the costume or the make up, even though he had sketched some concept drawings.  The actual look was being decided by Jack Nicholson and make-up artist Nick Dudman.  In my opinion the best comicbook look for the Joker is the Alex Ross Joker.  I believe it to be very close to Tim's stlye not to mention the Joker actually looks like nicholson especially when you see nicholson dressed in the black mime suit. 

"Looking back at the original Bob Kane/Jerry Robinson artwork, it seems to me that the Joker's suit was intended to be black with purple highlights, which makes the most sense, so the only thing you focus on is that vampirish, glowing clown head.  When he appears, he's dressed to the nines, and the shocking starkness of his face puts terror into his victims.  Also, he didn't start off in the comics as this stick-thin anorexic guy, I wanted to give him the appearence of being long and lean, but also physically powerful, not underweight.  He was originally based on Conrad Veidt in the 1928 silent movie The Man Who Laughs, and that's what I'm seeking to capture, the true face of Joker." 

"There's a panel at the end of Batman #1 in which the Joker is stabbed and we see that his chest is white.  I never forgot that, the realization that his whole body was white.  Eerie.  Also, he can't die, which makes his color seem to represent that he is undead, more than simply a clown Metaphor."

                                                                            -Alex Ross



I believe that a Tim Burton Joker would have had dark circles around the eyes, the make up would have not been that different from the film except maybe for longer cuts on his face, not like ledgers.  He would then have a more skull grin faced vampirish clown look that reflected the look of being undead.  The costume would be black with purple highlights as Alex Ross had described, and the personality of the Joker would have been played much more darker and menacing, but still keeping true to his dark humored nature.   I also believe that there would have been more murder scenes.  All in all this is just my opinion and as for the other changes I believe burton would have done I'll save that for another time. 
   

[batass4880]

I'm pretty 50-50 on this. On one hand I agree with this

I often think that Tim Burton did do what he wanted in 1988.

He got the Batman he wanted. He had the Joker be the killer of the Waynes.

People say Batman Returns is the film Tim made because he had full control, but isn't Returns the film Tim Burton made because he wanted to make something entirely different to 89?

But I can't help but see something like this if it happened this way

I've always felt that if Tim was given full creative control over Batman.  The Joker would definitely have been more burtonesque.  We all know how extreme he went with the Penguin,  why should Joker be any different?  I believe that what we got in the film was a true depiction of a Bob Kane Joker, not a Burton Joker.  If I recall correctly, Tim didn't have much say regarding the look of the Joker whether it be the costume or the make up, even though he had sketched some concept drawings.  The actual look was being decided by Jack Nicholson and make-up artist Nick Dudman.  In my opinion the best comicbook look for the Joker is the Alex Ross Joker.  I believe it to be very close to Tim's stlye not to mention the Joker actually looks like nicholson especially when you see nicholson dressed in the black mime suit. 

I believe that a Tim Burton Joker would have had dark circles around the eyes, the make up would have not been that different from the film except maybe for longer cuts on his face, not like ledgers.  He would then have a more skull grin faced vampirish clown look that reflected the look of being undead.  The costume would be black with purple highlights as Alex Ross had described, and the personality of the Joker would have been played much more darker and menacing, but still keeping true to his dark humored nature.   I also believe that there would have been more murder scenes.  All in all this is just my opinion and as for the other changes I believe burton would have done I'll save that for another time. 

I'm also wondering how different the tone would have been because I heard (either on this site or somewhere else) that Burton did not like the tone of the first picture which AMAZED me because this is a man who loves melancholy and this movie is a masterwork of just that.

I believe we would have gotten mostly the last draft version of Sam Hamm?s script. Burton has often said that he went in thinking they were doing that until Peters came in and made the changes and eventually he made some too. I?ve been reading Hit and Run and I love how they said that Peters and Burton worked out the scene in Vicki?s apartment with Peters as Bruce and Burton as Vicki! 

Cool info about the apartment scene! Yeah I heard that he didn't want Vicki going up the church and just wanted the two of them alone with the sworm of bats and everything.

[Paul (ral)]

I?ve been reading Hit and Run and I love how they said that Peters and Burton worked out the scene in Vicki?s apartment with Peters as Bruce and Burton as Vicki! 

Great info Darrell - I really must get that book.

[TheBatMan0887]

I've always felt that if Tim was given full creative control over Batman.  The Joker would definitely have been more burtonesque.  We all know how extreme he went with the Penguin,  why should Joker be any different?  I believe that what we got in the film was a true depiction of a Bob Kane Joker, not a Burton Joker.  If I recall correctly, Tim didn't have much say regarding the look of the Joker whether it be the costume or the make up, even though he had sketched some concept drawings.  The actual look was being decided by Jack Nicholson and make-up artist Nick Dudman.  In my opinion the best comicbook look for the Joker is the Alex Ross Joker.  I believe it to be very close to Tim's stlye not to mention the Joker actually looks like nicholson especially when you see nicholson dressed in the black mime suit.  

"Looking back at the original Bob Kane/Jerry Robinson artwork, it seems to me that the Joker's suit was intended to be black with purple highlights, which makes the most sense, so the only thing you focus on is that vampirish, glowing clown head.  When he appears, he's dressed to the nines, and the shocking starkness of his face puts terror into his victims.  Also, he didn't start off in the comics as this stick-thin anorexic guy, I wanted to give him the appearence of being long and lean, but also physically powerful, not underweight.  He was originally based on Conrad Veidt in the 1928 silent movie The Man Who Laughs, and that's what I'm seeking to capture, the true face of Joker."  

"There's a panel at the end of Batman #1 in which the Joker is stabbed and we see that his chest is white.  I never forgot that, the realization that his whole body was white.  Eerie.  Also, he can't die, which makes his color seem to represent that he is undead, more than simply a clown Metaphor."

                                                                           -Alex Ross



I believe that a Tim Burton Joker would have had dark circles around the eyes, the make up would have not been that different from the film except maybe for longer cuts on his face, not like ledgers.  He would then have a more skull grin faced vampirish clown look that reflected the look of being undead.  The costume would be black with purple highlights as Alex Ross had described, and the personality of the Joker would have been played much more darker and menacing, but still keeping true to his dark humored nature.   I also believe that there would have been more murder scenes.  All in all this is just my opinion and as for the other changes I believe burton would have done I'll save that for another time.  
   

While I knew how the smile was made on here, I didn't think some portion of it were remaining cuts, but the entire mouth locked in a great smile. I did see one concept contain a lack of smile and more cuts around the mouth pass the cheek area though. This was Burton's right? You can see it here in the pictures area.

EDIT: Huh, I looked at the young Jack smile scene and apearently the mouth wouldn't reach all the way up there to the cheek and be a thin line. Funny I forgot as a kid that it's a mixture of both a real smile and open cuts. Kinda makes ya think of how much more grim it feels.



Real apearent here!