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I know fans will debate script treatment until the end of time between these two films. But shouldn't Schumacher and the effects team receive high grades for creating a visually appealing universe for Batman? The older these films get, the more they seem to retain that timeless quality that defines movies that exceeded production values for their day.

The Nolan films are still relatively new in this era to make much of an assessment for aging gracefully, but the Burton films are showing some dated qualities to them. Sure the original will always retain a degree of timeliness because of the incredible style Burton delivered to this instant classic. But that film also has the disadvantage of being the first film of the modern age to introduce (and pretty much reinvent) the superhero experience. That context should ALWAYS be given to this film, because honestly every movie made since, has built upon those ideas.

But production standards, story pacing, and just the natural evolution of action sequences have evolved allot over time. To me, the Schumacher films seem to have captured the best of those improvements and fashioned two films that look just as striking today as they did when they were released 18 and 20 years ago respectively.  They never seem to lose that 'magic' that made everything appear larger-than-life in a way that makes you want to swim in it.

With so many years invested in fans being divisive over the script treatment and overall tone, are these films not getting the proper credit they should for doing the good work on the visual experience?

That title goes to Burton. But Schumacher made them more like a fantasy comic. People maybe forgot that Batman comics weren't always as dark as in The Dark Knight Returns and other more modern works.

I guess it comes down to what your individual sensibilities are. I really dig the aesthetics that Schumacher brought to the game. His movies seemed like the kind of world where you could believe that someone can do the stuff Batman does without killing himself.

But I could see someone preferring Burton's take too because the visual angle. And tbh, I've always thought Burton's movies were visual feasts myself.

Yes, it depends on what appeals to you the most. I think Schumacher's films suffered from executive meddling and were toned down, otherwise they could've been as great as the Burton films in more areas than the visuals.

Burton is the top dog, but Snyder will be a serious challenger.

Am I alone in thinking that B&R is better than BF in terms of cinematography? One of the few things that I didn't like about BF is that it had a lot of darkly lit scenes that didn't gel together with the neon colour e.g. Nygma killing the Wayne Enterprises supervisor. I thought B&R improved that in comparison and matched the bright tone of the film too.

Besides, the statues overlooking Gotham in the film certainly looks amazing.

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Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 30 Oct  2015, 04:35
Burton is the top dog, but Snyder will be a serious challenger.

I don't think Snyder will have any Art Deco backgrounds, but I guarantee you that we will see lots of imagery that celebrates the characters from a mythic perspective i.e. Batman posing as the thunder erupts in the sky ala Dark Knight Returns, and crashing through the window with his cape spread across. It's very larger than life.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 30 Oct  2015, 11:10Am I alone in thinking that B&R is better than BF in terms of cinematography? One of the few things that I didn't like about BF is that it had a lot of darkly lit scenes that didn't gel together with the neon colour e.g. Nygma killing the Wayne Enterprises supervisor. I thought B&R improved that in comparison and matched the bright tone of the film too.

I've wondered about that stuff too. And the most I could figure is that B&R is intentionally more stylistic. It's not a question of consistency. At least not necessarily. I just think the nature of B&R's story allowed for the brighter color designs and sets to be a consistent thing since little or none of the narrative really explores darkness.

BF, meanwhile, is basically about a stalker'ish villain, an obsessed, murderous villain and a protagonist going through one helluva dark night of the soul. The ground is already more fertile for dimmer lighting to reflect the darkness consuming Batman, Riddler and Two-Face.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 30 Oct  2015, 11:10I don't think Snyder will have any Art Deco backgrounds,

Yes, for better or worse live action DCU has hitched it's wagon to realism. In fact, I'm starting to think that we aren't going to see more stylized versions of Batman for long, long time. If ever.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 30 Oct  2015, 11:10but I guarantee you that we will see lots of imagery that celebrates the characters from a mythic perspective i.e. Batman posing as the thunder erupts in the sky ala Dark Knight Returns, and crashing through the window with his cape spread across. It's very larger than life.

Definitely. In fact, what I'm hoping is that Snyder brings his style back for BvS. For Man of Steel, it was all very gritty, very hand-held and very grounded. Watchmen, meanwhile, was full of stylizations and Snyder's approach to making films. I want that brought back for BvS.

Of course my answer was, is, and indefinitely will be Batman Returns, but I did like their look. Very comic-booky like how they made the Dick Tracy movie.

I would LOVE to see a Batman movie with the Dick Tracy look. Bright colors and larger than life criminals in a 1940s flavor but with a tone steeped in noir. That would be perfection. Well, as close to perfection as snow, Christmas lights, and mistletoe.  ;)

I think Batman Forever was a bridge between the Burton style and Schumacher's comic book approach. With Burton onboard as producer and the rest of the WB studio watching closely because of the complaints from BR, it was destined to be a more measured response than what B&R delivered. I think Forever held on to many of the Burton-esque qualities (especially with the Batman character), so the transition was not so abrupt as it might have felt in B&R. The Batman character in B&R completely contrasted with previous interpretations, even Forever, so I think fans were a bit caught off guard by that more than anything else. I personally think had Kilmer stayed onboard, the Batman character would have stayed more brooding and allot of what people point to in the treatment would not have taken center stage.

In terms of effects and visual design, Peter MacGregor-Scott indicated there were a number of technological advancements between the making of Forever and B&R which helped them immensely in bringing a bigger visual bang to the story element. And with the success of Forever in place (leaving the Studio with the feeling that Schumacher's lighter style was publicly endorsed) the effects teams were given pretty much free reign to bring the movie to life as they saw fit. Ultimately I think that miscalculation by the studio produced the movie's greatest gem in terms of being a visual feast on the eyes. To this day, I believe that is what keeps this movie in active rotation within the series. It's just fun to look at, regardless of treatment.   

Quote from: Wayne49 on Mon,  9 Nov  2015, 12:42I think Batman Forever was a bridge between the Burton style and Schumacher's comic book approach. With Burton onboard as producer and the rest of the WB studio watching closely because of the complaints from BR, it was destined to be a more measured response than what B&R delivered. I think Forever held on to many of the Burton-esque qualities (especially with the Batman character), so the transition was not so abrupt as it might have felt in B&R. The Batman character in B&R completely contrasted with previous interpretations, even Forever, so I think fans were a bit caught off guard by that more than anything else.

It didn't contrast though. It was consistent with him finding a kind of acceptance of his Batman and Bruce Wayne identities.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Too much neon for my taste.

Quote from: Vampfox on Thu, 31 Dec  2015, 19:11Too much neon for my taste.

I get that. But comics traditionally have been a very color-saturated medium. In his own way, Schumacher brought that aesthetic to the big screen. And in retrospect, I really cherish it.

And....I guess someone could argue the case that Max's power surplus thingy was a reason for the neon appearance of BF's Gotham. Not sure how one could spin that at the moment, but I'm sure it's possible.

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I think it was Batman & Robin that destroyed that look. It reached the point where it was "too much", enough is enough. Even fans who choose interesting production design and ornate eclectic buildings over "realism", rolled their eyes when a car chase took place on a statue's arm, so gigantic that the cars looked like insects. It was ridiculous even for Batman standards. The cities in Burton's films were fantastical and interesting, but not ridiculous.

i loved gotham from BF. Closely followed by Returns

I just recently purchased a 60 inch flat screen with 4K resolution and I placed this movie in expecting a pretty nice visual. It was more than nice, everyone in the room was blown away.  Unlike allot of vintage and very popular movies like Jaws or Star Wars where the TV adjusts the screen for best visual performance (meaning some black bars), B&R gets to enjoy the full screen and is absolutely incredible. I felt like I was watching the movie new in the theater again. And it reminded me of this thread I started a while back. I'm going to be putting in the other Batman films and see how they play and report back. But without question B&R was just stellar. The production values in this film are off the charts good. And the Batmobile looked incredible.

Quote from: Wayne49 on Mon, 25 Jan  2016, 13:11And the Batmobile looked incredible.

Who else loves the BF Batmobile? I have the Hot Wheels Elite on my bookshelf and it's a real stunner. As a kid I had the generic toy version, which had the blue engine lighting up. The Hot Wheels Elite is a real upgrade, and while the Burtonmobile will always be a classic, I do admire the BF version. It's pure comic book in a way the Tumbler isn't, or even the Snyder Batmobile isn't. The Clooneymobile didn't work for me in the same way as Kilmer's.

I adore nearly everything about the art direction of BF, particularly the Batmobile. A big reason it worked for me was because it wasn't the Furst design. I liked how it fit into the universe of BF in a way that Furst's car wouldn't have.

What works best for me about the BF car is how it goes out of its way to be stylish. Furst's Batmobile is a vehicular predator while BF's Batmobile is sleeker and kind of a showoff.

I like the previous and subsequent Batmobiles. But man, the BF Batmobile is a bona fide classic in my opinion.

The B&R Batmobile is the only live action vehicle to date that wasn't built with a canopy, similar to how the car was drawn sometimes in the Pre-Crisis comics.

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It's a bit of shame Schumacher didn't have Batman's cape waving in the air as he's speeding in the Batmobile, like he did in the comics. But then again, it's probably not even practical, nor safe, to do.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  1 Jan  2019, 07:23
I like the previous and subsequent Batmobiles. But man, the BF Batmobile is a bona fide classic in my opinion.

I do as well, all for different reasons. The stylish comic appearance of the BF Batmobile is something to be admired.

I used to think 'the back fin is too big, how will it fit under a low bridge?', as if that thought was disqualifying.

Now I see such complaints as irrelevant.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  1 Jan  2019, 20:03
I used to think 'the back fin is too big, how will it fit under a low bridge?', as if that thought was disqualifying.

Now I see such complaints as irrelevant.

The Forever Batmobile was the only live action design to feature the oversized central fin above the driver's compartment, which is strange considering the central fin was a defining visual characteristic of the original Golden Age Batmobiles, as drawn by Jerry Robinson, Bob Kane and Dick Sprang (and not counting the ordinary civilian cars Bruce drove in earlier stories).


The production team were clearly trying to infuse the vehicles with a biomechanical look in Batman Forever. The fact they solicited concept art from H R Giger confirms as much.


The finished design does a better job of conveying a sleek biomechanical aesthetic that's consistent with the organic look of Batman's costume, as well as the designs of the Batboat and Batwing. It also looks like something that could conceivably have evolved from the Anton Furst Batmobile showcased in Burton's films.


It's not my favourite Batmobile by a long shot, but it has its charms.