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There are several online videos analysing the fighting styles of the Nolanverse and DCEU Batmen, but I don't think anyone's ever done a similar breakdown for the Burton version. So this is my attempt at analysing his fighting style to ascertain precisely how many different martial arts he knows.

The fight scenes in the Burton Batman films were primarily performed by British martial artist Dave Lea. Stuntmen Sean McCabe and Mike Cassidy also contributed to these sequences, and Michael Keaton did a small amount himself. But most of the actual fighting was handled by Lea. Lea has spent his life training in a variety of different fighting techniques from across the globe, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Bruce Wayne knows all of those same styles in the Burton universe. So which martial arts does Batman actually use on screen in Batman 89 and Batman Returns?

Lea has said in interviews that he created a fighting style suited to Batman's character; one that focused on concise economical movements over flashier techniques that might needlessly expend energy. One of the martial arts he incorporated into Batman's fight style was the Malaysian discipline of HapKune Do.

QuoteHapKune Do is a style I learned in Malaysia. It's an amalgamation of all different styles put together - which suited me perfectly at the time when I was learning because I could learn everything. I had already studied the Filipino arts, studied with Dan Inosanto, studied the kicks, the flips, weapons, Kung Fu - all the time different stuff. I took all the moves and turned them into Batman moves...but you're not going to see Batman do a Tiger Claw or a Thai Boxing kick...so what I did was - whatever the move was I would turn it into a little bit more of the Batman character.

https://www.batman-online.com/features/2009/12/19/michael-keaton-stunt-double-dave-lea-interview/3

Another martial art the Burton Batman utilises is Ninjutsu. The official movie book of the 1989 film reveals that this Batman carries ninja weaponry in his utility belt, including smoke pellets and 'ninja wheels'/shuriken. He is never actually shown to use the shuriken in the finished film, but we do see at least two instances where he uses smoke pellets to evade his opponents. So this Batman is definitely a ninja.

Batman's fighting style in Batman Returns has been described as a mixture of kickboxing and street fighting. Keaton is said to have studied kickboxing under Lea's tutelage for both the 1989 film and its sequel. The particular form of kickboxing he uses appears to be a mixture of Shotokan Karate and Taekwondo.


The Burton Batman also displays a proficiency at the Filipino martial art of Escrima when dealing with blade-wielding opponents. I'm pretty sure the choreography during the fight against the swordsman is derived from Escrima.


As is this.


Although he primarily uses striking techniques, he does also occasionally incorporate grappling into his fighting style. The following move looks like an Aikido wrist throw to me, but I'm open to correction on this.


When he fights the Joker at the end of the 1989 film, he forgoes his usual quick jab punches in favour of powerful right hooks and body blows. These indicate he has some boxing skills.

So to sum up (and assuming I'm right in all this) the Burton Batman would appear to be proficient in at least seven or eight different fighting techniques: Ninjutsu, HapKune Do, Shotokan Karate, Taekwondo, Escrima, Aikido, boxing and street fighting.

More than anything else though, Bat-Keaton loves his backhand punches.


Has anyone identified any other martial arts techniques used by this version of Batman? Have I misidentified one of the disciplines I've listed above? If so, what would the correct martial art be for that particular technique? Do you like the fighting style of this Batman, or do you prefer the techniques used by a different screen version? Any and all discussion/analysis of Batman's fighting style is welcome in this thread.

Tbh, I wasn't aware of all that. As rather a layman, I recognized certain tae kwon do moves, like the kick before the follow up punch for the clown in BR:

(https://i.imgur.com/YklB3Yd.gif)

It looks very similar to tae kwon do's snap-kick, which is intended to stun an opponent before following up with a more powerful blow as the finisher... which is more or less how Batman used it there. I guess it could be used as a finisher itself, as Batman used it against the swordsman in B89. Don't recommend doing that though, especially against a sword master.

Still, there are a lot of practical limitations on what Burton's Batman can do based on the outfit he's wearing. So Lea had it right, whatever fighting style is used has to take his limited movements into account.

Something else. This...

https://i.imgur.com/hA7cBi6.gif

... has always looked like aikido to me. And it adds up. Joe Rogan has said that aikido is barely a martial art so much as it's a technique for disarming an attacker who's armed with a sword. When you consider the wide and sweeping arm motions aikido depends upon, I can see that argument. And that's literally what's happening in that scene.

Batman makes a priority of immobilizing the swordsman's arms, as might be expected from aikido.

Above everything else, I don't think we should underplay the Burton Batman's reliance on boxing either. Batman can take a shot, which is a pretty significant element of boxing. Martial arts will usually emphasize blocks or evasion when being assailed by an attacker.

But boxing is a form which readily acknowledges the reality of receiving a punch from an attacker and so it instills discipline for taking it. Batman takes punches in Burton's movies and while his armor helps with those, he still has to be able to absorb the punishment and keep moving. Off-hand, I remember that the Joker, the strong man and Catwoman all punch or kick Batman and he rolls with it pretty well. To me, that SCREAMS boxing training.

Another great thread that shows Silver Nemesis as a Batman Online champion.

Here's my little contribution.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FatalIndelibleAlaskanmalamute-max-1mb.gif)

Batman ropes his dope inside the cathedral, but he has some impressive moves of his own. The kick is nice, but what I really like is him ducking the chain swings. Impressive reactions times from a guy who just climbed out from a crashed plane.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 21 Jan  2019, 23:52
Tbh, I wasn't aware of all that. As rather a layman, I recognized certain tae kwon do moves, like the kick before the follow up punch for the clown in BR:

(https://i.imgur.com/YklB3Yd.gif)

It looks very similar to tae kwon do's snap-kick, which is intended to stun an opponent before following up with a more powerful blow as the finisher... which is more or less how Batman used it there. I guess it could be used as a finisher itself, as Batman used it against the swordsman in B89. Don't recommend doing that though, especially against a sword master.

I've never trained in Taekwondo myself, but I remember you mentioning in another thread that you had. So I was hoping you'd contribute to this discussion. There was a Taekwondo class that used to share a dojo with my Ju-Jitsu school, and I recall looking at their posters and noting that what seemed to really distinguish their fighting style from other martial arts was the emphasis on kicks. The finishing kick Batman uses against the swordsman always looked to me like a Taekwondo move, so I'm glad to have confirmation of that.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 21 Jan  2019, 23:52... has always looked like aikido to me. And it adds up. Joe Rogan has said that aikido is barely a martial art so much as it's a technique for disarming an attacker who's armed with a sword. When you consider the wide and sweeping arm motions aikido depends upon, I can see that argument. And that's literally what's happening in that scene.

Batman makes a priority of immobilizing the swordsman's arms, as might be expected from aikido.

It could very well be Aikido. When I was trying to identify this move, Aikido was the other martial art I considered. It's got to be either that or Escrima. The arm lock he uses here isn't a million miles away from some of the submission moves taught in Ju-Jitsu. But if it were Ju-Jitsu, he likely would've applied a wrist lock with his left hand and used his other hand to put pressure on the back of his opponent's elbow or shoulder. Instead he uses the momentum of his enemy's attack to twist his arm (following the initial interception, he holds his attacker's limb with just one hand instead of two) and throw him off balance, which exemplifies a central principle of Aikido – using the strength of your enemy's attack against them.


But it could also be Escrima. Dave Lea would be the guy to ask.

It's also possible that the following technique is an example of the Korean martial art Hapkido.


I've seen Aikido practitioners use this throw on several occasions (in movies and TV shows – I'm sceptical about whether it would actually work in real life), which leads me to conclude it probably is Aikido. But it might be Hapkido. Again, Dave Lea would be the one to ask.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 21 Jan  2019, 23:52Above everything else, I don't think we should underplay the Burton Batman's reliance on boxing either. Batman can take a shot, which is a pretty significant element of boxing. Martial arts will usually emphasize blocks or evasion when being assailed by an attacker.

But boxing is a form which readily acknowledges the reality of receiving a punch from an attacker and so it instills discipline for taking it. Batman takes punches in Burton's movies and while his armor helps with those, he still has to be able to absorb the punishment and keep moving. Off-hand, I remember that the Joker, the strong man and Catwoman all punch or kick Batman and he rolls with it pretty well. To me, that SCREAMS boxing training.

The beating he takes from the Joker goon in the cathedral would be another good example of this. At one point Batman tanks an unbroken 10-hit combo which includes numerous body blows. That's got to be the most number of consecutive hits any villain has landed on Batman in a live action fight. Boxing would offer the conditioning needed to withstand that kind of punishment.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 10:48Here's my little contribution.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FatalIndelibleAlaskanmalamute-max-1mb.gif)

Batman ropes his dope inside the cathedral, but he has some impressive moves of his own. The kick is nice, but what I really like is him ducking the chain swings. Impressive reactions times from a guy who just climbed out from a crashed plane.

That's a good observation, TDK. His situational awareness further supports the idea of Bat-Keaton having trained in boxing. One of the main environmental hazards during the cathedral fight is the wooden walls at the edge of the room. The Joker goon throws Batman through one of these at the start of their fight. Later on Batman rams the Joker's head through one, then punches him backwards through another. Bruce must've identified these structurally-unsound walls as a risk early in the battle. The moment where he's ducking to avoid the block and tackle is him luring his opponent away from that risk and into the centre of the arena, like a boxer making sure he doesn't get trapped in the corner of the ring.

Unfortunately for Batman the final Joker goon also makes excellent use of his environment. He repeatedly closes the distance between them to drive Batman up against the nearest wall or pillar, thereby trapping him and limiting his ability to manoeuvre. Batman keeps trying to get away from the Joker goon, but his enemy never lets him maintain that distance for long. This is the only one-on-one fight in the Burton films where Batman disappears and reappears mid-fight (not counting his confrontation with Napier at Axis Chemicals). In fact he does it three times. Firstly when the Joker goon throws him through the wooden wall and Batman reappears behind him and kicks him in the back. Secondly when Batman vanishes and then reappears on top of the bell. And thirdly when the Joker goon knees Batman over the ledge and Batman snares him with a head-scissor throw. This is the only time the Burton Batman had to use stealth in direct combat, and ultimately it was that stealth that secured him the victory.

Speaking of the final fight in Batman 89, does anyone think we should add wrestling to Batman's list of fighting styles? I ask because there are two notable examples in the final battle where he uses methods common to that sport. The first is where he tries to perform a flying body press off the top of the bell.


And secondly, the aforementioned head-scissor throw.


These look like wrestling moves to me.

All in all, the Burton Batman's got a fairly balanced skill set that covers strikes, throws and countermeasures for dealing with blades. If I were to highlight a weakness in his fighting style it would be his lack of a system for dealing with grappling attacks, and especially submission holds. He really needed to learn some basic Ju-Jitsu so he'd be better equipped for dealing with and applying joint locks. A couple of examples spring to mind where this deficiency is illustrated. One is when he's fighting the final Joker goon in the bell tower and keeps getting ragdolled whenever his enemy catches him in a choke hold. Batman had no method of breaking free whenever this happened.


At one point he tries seizing the Joker goon in a stranglehold of his own, but his opponent easily breaks free and continues pummelling him.


Another example can be seen in Batman Returns where the Penguin gets him in a chokehold with his umbrella. Batman does eventually break free of this, but it takes him a while to do it and he was clearly struggling.


So I'd say some Judo or Ju-Jitsu was needed. The only other major weakness in his fighting style is his lack of mobility and agility, but obviously that's down to the limitations of his armour more than anything else.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 15:16
I've never trained in Taekwondo myself, but I remember you mentioning in another thread that you had. So I was hoping you'd contribute to this discussion. There was a Taekwondo class that used to share a dojo with my Ju-Jitsu school, and I recall looking at their posters and noting that what seemed to really distinguish their fighting style from other martial arts was the emphasis on kicks. The finishing kick Batman uses against the swordsman always looked to me like a Taekwondo move, so I'm glad to have confirmation of that.

I think there were practical considerations behind Taekwondo's emphasis on kicks. Those types of kicks are really impractical in average physical altercation. In fact, I might go so far as to say that they're as dangerous to the user as to his opponent.

One of the few ways I can see kicks being practical moves would be if someone gets knocked off his horse and then has to defend himself from an attacker still on a horse. In that case, a roundhouse kick (or reverse kick) might be enough to knock somebody off their horse so that it's a fair fight again. After that, the school has some basic hand strikes and blocks but nothing to write home about, really. Frankly, karate would probably be the better system to use after knocking an attacker off his horse.

The only other way I could see a Taekwondo kick being effective is if the user knows his opponent is watching his shoulders and uses a kick as a surprise attack. If I hadn't seen it for myself, I would've said something absurd like Karate Kid's crane technique would never be practical in actual combat. And yet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z06TW-BsSBI

Yeesh, I'm getting off topic here.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 15:16
It could very well be Aikido. When I was trying to identify this move, Aikido was the other martial art I considered. It's got to be either that or Escrima. The arm lock he uses here isn't a million miles away from some of the submission moves taught in Ju-Jitsu. But if it were Ju-Jitsu, he likely would've applied a wrist lock with his left hand and used his other hand to put pressure on the back of his opponent's elbow or shoulder. Instead he uses the momentum of his enemy's attack to twist his arm (following the initial interception, he holds his attacker's limb with just one hand instead of two)) and throw him off balance, which exemplifies a central principle of Aikido – using the strength of your enemy's attack against them.

Indeed. And I'm right there with you. The utter stop at the end of the swordsman's lunge leading to his immobilization is really the give away for me.

But, again, a layman.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 15:16
I've seen Aikido practitioners use this throw on several occasions (in movies and TV shows – I'm sceptical about whether it would actually work in real life), which leads me to conclude it probably is Aikido. But it might be Hapkido. Again, Dave Lea would be the one to ask.

My view is never say never. Every time I think X, Y or Z move would never be practical IRL, inevitably a YouTube clip pops up showing somebody using it to devastate an opponent. There's a technique in kung fu and I have no idea what it is. But it's basically a block/strike. Depending on what you need, the same essential move can be either a block or a strike. Again, I forget the technique's name. But if you'd asked me ahead of time, I would've said there's no possible way a technique like that is useful in actual combat. And yet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmHTd48hgBk

Sorry about the crap quality but that's a pretty ancient YouTube video. No idea who trained that guy. But I know enough about kung fu to know he's legit.

Again, I'm getting off-topic here. I guess the point is that one must tailor his defense to the weaknesses of his opponent. Not to get too specific, but there's a type out there who throws nothing but haymaker punches to start a fight. Rope a dope followed by counter-attack is probably enough to win 9 out of 10 of those fights.

Which just about leads us back to...

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 15:16
At one point he tries seizing the Joker goon in a stranglehold of his own, but his opponent easily breaks free and continues pummelling him.

(https://i.imgur.com/F8It4uj.gif)

Here again I may be projecting technique where none exists. But a major element of Batman's physical conditioning has included gymnastics. If I'm a layman on martial arts, I'm hopeless with gymnastics.

And yet, Batman getting thrown like that, tucking, rolling, tumbling and springing to his feet without losing his balance looks like borderline Olympic-level gymnastics to me. And it makes sense in a way. If Burton's Batman is as talented a boxer as I have suggested, the logical companion skill for that is gymnastics. Boxing will teach you how to take a shot. Gymnastics might be useful for teaching how to roll with a grapple or a throw.

In sum, I have to agree that, surprisingly enough, Burton's Batman might be the best all around fighter we've ever seen in live action when considering his incredible range of talents. Nolan's Batman heavily relied on KFM while Schumacher's Batmen either relied on Adam West fisticuffs, acrobatics or what looks like hapkido. And then Snyder's would just pound the snot out of people using his fists so hmm.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 15:16Another example can be seen in Batman Returns where the Penguin gets him in a chokehold with his umbrella. Batman does eventually break free of this, but it takes him a while to do it and he was clearly struggling.

True, but both the burly man in the cathedral and the Penguin were stocky, heavyset attackers who (at times) used their sheer girth to their advantage to tire Batman out. The burly man attacked Batman after he survived a crash while the Penguin caught him off-guard.

I think I deleted your comments about wrestling by accident. Oops. But that is interesting. The leg-lock bit just seemed like an act of desperation. I never considered that he might've been using actual technique. I suppose my reason for that is due to the assumption I've always had that a wrestler needs more height and a thicker barrel chest than Keaton has. On that basis, wrestling seemed like a highly unusual skill for Batman to cultivate.

Then again, if he did use it against the burly man, well, you can't argue that studying wrestling didn't pay off for Batman in the end. Probably saved his life, in fact.

Boy is this post too long or what?

Disclaimer- In an effort to not look like an Internet Tough Guy, allow me to say that I've observed martial arts for a lot of my life. But the only one I ever really attempted was Taekwondo when I was kid. And it only lasted a few years. I was done probably before I turned 13.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 15:16
At one point he tries seizing the Joker goon in a stranglehold of his own, but his opponent easily breaks free and continues pummelling him.

(https://i.imgur.com/F8It4uj.gif)

What I like is how Batman is getting physically abused, but that doesn't stop the intensity of his performance. Technically he is still sound, and that is demonstrated very well via this roll. He's not shying away from the fight, because he's facing up straight away as soon as the roll is completed. He's trying to get some breathing space between himself and his foe, which is further proven by his leap from the bell. Joker goon is onto him in a flash, limiting his attack potential - again proven by Batman's choice to reappear and kick the guy in the back. Basically, the goon is the bigger man and his blows pack more punch, and that neutralizes Batman's technical ability. I'd say that's a fair trade off considering this is essentially Keaton's version of Bane.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 21:46I think there were practical considerations behind Taekwondo's emphasis on kicks. Those types of kicks are really impractical in average physical altercation. In fact, I might go so far as to say that they're as dangerous to the user as to his opponent.

One of the few ways I can see kicks being practical moves would be if someone gets knocked off his horse and then has to defend himself from an attacker still on a horse. In that case, a roundhouse kick (or reverse kick) might be enough to knock somebody off their horse so that it's a fair fight again. After that, the school has some basic hand strikes and blocks but nothing to write home about, really. Frankly, karate would probably be the better system to use after knocking an attacker off his horse.

I've not really considered the historical basis for Taekwondo's high kicks before now. Taking into account Korea's military history, it makes a lot of sense.

We seldom performed high-level kicks in Ju-Jitsu. Karate, Judo and Aikido are all derived from Ju-Jitsu, which is why it's sometimes referred to as the grandfather of Japanese martial arts. For this reason the 'atemi' or striking aspect of Ju-Jitsu is pretty similar to Karate, although I think Karate practitioners expanded and evolved those techniques in their own unique way, similar to how Judo and Aikido practitioners expanded on the throws. The foot strikes in Ju-Jitsu are mostly basic front, side, step, push, roundhouse and spinning-back kicks to the groin, abdomen and chest areas. But we did also used to train in flying kicks. And I read at the time that flying kicks had evolved out of the necessity for samurai to knock mounted opponents off their horses back in feudal Japan. To kick someone off a horse you'd have to be able to jump pretty darn high, and I'm not sure I can imagine someone doing it in full armour. But supposedly some of them did.

I've always found the historical and geographical origins of martial arts fascinating. And I like to think the collection of armour in the 1989 Wayne Manor was an indicator that Bruce was also interested in the subject.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 21:46My view is never say never. Every time I think X, Y or Z move would never be practical IRL, inevitably a YouTube clip pops up showing somebody using it to devastate an opponent. There's a technique in kung fu and I have no idea what it is. But it's basically a block/strike. Depending on what you need, the same essential move can be either a block or a strike. Again, I forget the technique's name. But if you'd asked me ahead of time, I would've said there's no possible way a technique like that is useful in actual combat. And yet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmHTd48hgBk

Sorry about the crap quality but that's a pretty ancient YouTube video. No idea who trained that guy. But I know enough about kung fu to know he's legit.

There appears to be a lot of uncertainty surrounding Aikido. Depending on who you're talking to, it's either one of the most effective martial arts ever or one of the worst. There was a teacher in my secondary school who taught Aikido on the side. He was probably aged in his late fifties and looked exactly like Doctor B. from the Tekken videogames.


He even wore an identical white lab coat. Which is odd, considering he taught mathematics. I never understood that. But anyway, there were all kinds of legends and rumours about how this mature, innocuous looking teacher had annihilated vicious young thugs half his age. One story I heard was that he was once strolling along the riverside minding his own business when a gang of skinheads accosted him and demanded he hand over his wallet. The story goes that he replied "Come and get it" (there's no way in hell he actually said that, but it makes the story funnier if he did) and proceeded to hospitalise the entire gang without sustaining so much as a bruise.

Now I doubt that story was true. But I do know for a fact that this same teacher once fractured the wrist of a young student who'd previously trained in other styles of martial arts. The teacher's advancing years were irrelevant. He had legitimate skills. Steven Seagal, for all the mockery his public persona attracts, is also a highly skilled practitioner of Aikido. He used to be notorious for putting people in wristlocks whenever he shook their hands. I guess it was his way of establishing his alpha male dominance, and he even did it to Chuck Norris on one occasion. Supposedly he also broke Sean Connery's wrist while training him for Never Say Never Again. I've heard far too many stories like this for me to ever dismiss Aikido as fake the way some people do.

I'd certainly never pick a fight with someone who'd mastered it.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 21:46Here again I may be projecting technique where none exists. But a major element of Batman's physical conditioning has included gymnastics. If I'm a layman on martial arts, I'm hopeless with gymnastics.

And yet, Batman getting thrown like that, tucking, rolling, tumbling and springing to his feet without losing his balance looks like borderline Olympic-level gymnastics to me. And it makes sense in a way. If Burton's Batman is as talented a boxer as I have suggested, the logical companion skill for that is gymnastics. Boxing will teach you how to take a shot. Gymnastics might be useful for teaching how to roll with a grapple or a throw.

The very first thing they teach you in Judo and Ju-Jitsu, besides basic dojo etiquette, is how to break your fall without injuring yourself. You learn how to fall sideways, backwards and forwards (there's a scene in the Star Trek episode 'Charlie X' where Kirk gives a surprisingly accurate demonstration of this to the title character). And the standard technique for falling forwards without sustaining injury is to perform a shoulder roll. Dave Lea executes one perfectly in this GIF.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 21:46In sum, I have to agree that, surprisingly enough, Burton's Batman might be the best all around fighter we've ever seen in live action when considering his incredible range of talents. Nolan's Batman heavily relied on KFM while Schumacher's Batmen either relied on Adam West fisticuffs, acrobatics or what looks like hapkido. And then Snyder's would just pound the snot out of people using his fists so hmm.

I will give credit to the stunt team on Nolan's films that Bale's Batman actually displays a broader range of martial arts techniques than any other live action Batman. By my count, he's proficient in at least ten different styles. Which is slightly more than the Burton Batman. Unfortunately his skills are not portrayed consistently, which I suspect has something to do with Bale's ego making him insist on performing his own fight scenes instead of letting his stunt double (former heavyweight Ju-Jitsu champion Buster Reeves) do it for him. Stanislavski method, and all that. This is why sometimes Nolan's Batman is portrayed as a lightning fast martial arts master...


...while other times he just staggers around like a drunken brawler.


You're right when you say he relies on the KFM too much. There's a limited move set he's particularly fond of using. But again, I think that's probably a consequence of Bale wanting to do the fights himself. His low-end combat feats are unimpressive, but his high-end performances are better than some fans give him credit for. Anyway, I'll save a more in-depth analysis of his fighting style for another thread.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 21:46True, but both the burly man in the cathedral and the Penguin were stocky, heavyset attackers who (at times) used their sheer girth to their advantage to tire Batman out. The burly man attacked Batman after he survived a crash while the Penguin caught him off-guard.

This is an important point. At around 5'9 and 160lbs, Bat-Keaton is by far the smallest live action incarnation of Batman. He's not small per se. He's just average sized. But compared to most of the other Batman actors, average size kind of is small. Some people deny that height and weight are a factor in combat. But while it's true a smaller fighter can knock out a larger opponent, size usually is a factor when it comes to grappling. Particularly if the disparity in weight is very large. So this is another potential area of weakness for Bat-Keaton.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 22 Jan  2019, 21:46Disclaimer- In an effort to not look like an Internet Tough Guy, allow me to say that I've observed martial arts for a lot of my life. But the only one I ever really attempted was Taekwondo when I was kid. And it only lasted a few years. I was done probably before I turned 13.

No worries. My situation's similar.

My own training during my teenage was primarily in Ju-Jitsu. I also used to take classes in Judo and have some boxing experience. But Ju-Jitsu was my main thing and I studied that for several years. My best friend back then was a 1st dan black belt in Karate, and I learned a little about Okinawan martial arts from him when we used to spar together. But all of that was a long time ago. The only martial art I've ever practiced in adulthood, besides sparring with a punch bag, is Tai Chi. So I'm definitely no expert on the subject either and I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to pass myself off as one. I'm purely an amateur, long out of practice, but with a longstanding interest in the subject.

I think anyone who's trained in martial arts – even if they only did it briefly when they were a kid – never quite loses their interest in the subject. And anyone who has trained has a more refined appreciation for the technical skill and hard work that goes into fight choreography. Hence this thread. Ideally I'd like to have similar threads for all the other live action Batmen.

QuoteI think anyone who's trained in martial arts – even if they only did it briefly when they were a kid – never quite loses their interest in the subject.

True. I've been training on and off (off at the moment lol) since childhood. I did karate as a child for several years, but to this day still remember the moves and a couple of kata with accuracy. When I started ju-jitsu in my 20's my sensei asked me if I had ever done karate due to my stance...that was something I had to unlearn.

As you have mentioned before breakfalls are the first thing you learn and the core of every class after that. A breakfall saved my life.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 23 Jan  2019, 23:32
I've not really considered the historical basis for Taekwondo's high kicks before now. Taking into account Korea's military history, it makes a lot of sense.

We seldom performed high-level kicks in Ju-Jitsu. Karate, Judo and Aikido are all derived from Ju-Jitsu, which is why it's sometimes referred to as the grandfather of Japanese martial arts. For this reason the 'atemi' or striking aspect of Ju-Jitsu is pretty similar to Karate, although I think Karate practitioners expanded and evolved those techniques in their own unique way, similar to how Judo and Aikido practitioners expanded on the throws. The foot strikes in Ju-Jitsu are mostly basic front, side, step, push, roundhouse and spinning-back kicks to the groin, abdomen and chest areas. But we did also used to train in flying kicks. And I read at the time that flying kicks had evolved out of the necessity for samurai to knock mounted opponents off their horses back in feudal Japan. To kick someone off a horse you'd have to be able to jump pretty darn high, and I'm not sure I can imagine someone doing it in full armour. But supposedly some of them did.

That's my understanding as well. I recognize that these are ancient disciplines in many cases. But it's strange how a lot of these schools and forms just aren't relevant to modern warfare/combat and haven't been updated in any meaningful way in order to become so.

I get that in the age of nuclear missiles, there's a perception of all hand-to-hand combat being obsolete. But still, these forms evolved from practical military scenarios. But they have not evolved in accordance with modern military scenarios. It's kind of weird, tbh.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 23 Jan  2019, 23:32I've always found the historical and geographical origins of martial arts fascinating. And I like to think the collection of armour in the 1989 Wayne Manor was an indicator that Bruce was also interested in the subject.

I have to agree. When I was a kid, I interpreted his armor collection as a rich man's indulgence. A kind of bourgy hobby.

As an adult, I think it's actually quite relevant to Bruce personally. First, his training would give him a natural connection for those cultures. The other thing is the concept of wearing heavy armor to go into battle is quite applicable to Bruce in any case. It works on a variety of levels, not least interpreting Burton's Batman as a sort of modern samurai.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 23 Jan  2019, 23:32
Steven Seagal, for all the mockery his public persona attracts, is also a highly skilled practitioner of Aikido. He used to be notorious for putting people in wristlocks whenever he shook their hands. I guess it was his way of establishing his alpha male dominance, and he even did it to Chuck Norris on one occasion. Supposedly he also broke Sean Connery's wrist while training him for Never Say Never Again. I've heard far too many stories like this for me to ever dismiss Aikido as fake the way some people do.

My sense of Chuck Norris is that he's the real deal. And it's kind of a jerk thing to do to try one-upping him for no reason.

That said... yeah, Seagal is legit too. Aikido throws and locks can break bones so I'd be the last guy to suggest that he's some faker or whatever. The guy was an instructor in Japan, FFS. That's probably less impressive in today's world than it would've been a century ago but it's still a huge deal even now for reasons we'd do better to not talk about publicly.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 23 Jan  2019, 23:32I'd certainly never pick a fight with someone who'd mastered it.

That makes two of us.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 23 Jan  2019, 23:32
I will give credit to the stunt team on Nolan's films that Bale's Batman actually displays a broader range of martial arts techniques than any other live action Batman. By my count, he's proficient in at least ten different styles. Which is slightly more than the Burton Batman. Unfortunately his skills are not portrayed consistently, which I suspect has something to do with Bale's ego making him insist on performing his own fight scenes instead of letting his stunt double (former heavyweight Ju-Jitsu champion Buster Reeves) do it for him. Stanislavski method, and all that. This is why sometimes Nolan's Batman is portrayed as a lightning fast martial arts master...

(https://i.imgur.com/Avqe0tQ.gif)

...while other times he just staggers around like a drunken brawler.

(https://i.imgur.com/p6sxlqY.gif)

I guess I hadn't fully connected the dots on that stuff. But it is a good point. And for Batman of all characters, I kind of don't care what the actor's preferences might be. I wouldn't send a stuntman in there to give a dramatic performance. So why would I want to send a film actor to do fight sequences that Batman is uniquely tailored to allow a stuntman to perform? It's interesting how the slow, ponderous fighting I envision when I think of Nolan's Batman is probably all Bale.

As good an actor as Bale might be, he leaves much to be desired as a stunt performer. Good catch on your part.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 23 Jan  2019, 23:32
You're right when you say he relies on the KFM too much. There's a limited move set he's particularly fond of using. But again, I think that's probably a consequence of Bale wanting to do the fights himself. His low-end combat feats are unimpressive, but his high-end performances are better than some fans give him credit for. Anyway, I'll save a more in-depth analysis of his fighting style for another thread.

Fair enough. Then for now, what I'll say is that while I kind of appreciate the philosophy of KFM, the form itself lacks... something. Idk. It seems to be a haphazard collection of ideas mixed with strikes. The practitioners I've seen in action look perpetually off-balance. Or something, it's hard to articulate.

I recognize that KFM doesn't aspire to be a "martial art" so much as kind of an idea or a philosophy. So maybe I'm being a bit harsh.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 23 Jan  2019, 23:32
This is an important point. At around 5'9 and 160lbs, Bat-Keaton is by far the smallest live action incarnation of Batman. He's not small per se. He's just average sized. But compared to most of the other Batman actors, average size kind of is small. Some people deny that height and weight are a factor in combat. But while it's true a smaller fighter can knock out a larger opponent, size usually is a factor when it comes to grappling. Particularly if the disparity in weight is very large. So this is another potential area of weakness for Bat-Keaton.

I put things like that down to the fact that we're supposed to take Michael Keaton's physicality pretty much literally in the Burton films. As a comparison, Tom Welling's Clark on Smallville isn't meant to be taken completely literally. Tom Welling has sort of green eyes while Clark is always said to have baby blues. Clark has blue eyes while Welling has green eyes. That aspect of Tom Welling's features isn't meant to be taken literally, obviously.

But Burton wants us to believe someone matching Michael Keaton's exact specifications is Batman and that adds a level of grit and reality to the fight sequences where we see Batman use superior training and conditioning to overcome physically larger and stronger foes. It all works together to make the entire presentation more "credible" in a sense.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 23 Jan  2019, 23:32
I think anyone who's trained in martial arts – even if they only did it briefly when they were a kid – never quite loses their interest in the subject. And anyone who has trained has a more refined appreciation for the technical skill and hard work that goes into fight choreography. Hence this thread. Ideally I'd like to have similar threads for all the other live action Batmen.

I have to agree with this. When I was in junior high, I got into fist fights pretty often because I had very poor anger-management techniques at the time. So rather than ignore people, I was more likely to punch them in the head until they decide to find other targets. My Taekwondo history never really came up in any of those physical altercations.

But what I did notice was that I had fast reflexes. Very quick response time. I was fast enough to catch someone's hands when they attempted to shove me, throw them and send them flying. That seems sort of like a judo maneuver even though I know precisely squat about judo. It was simply instinct. The upside was very few people were fast enough to shove me.

The downside was that my throw wasn't as effective as an actual judo student would've been able to do. As you know, throws and submission holds aren't really an element of Taekwondo. And yet, I still credit Taekwondo with the training to watch for the right kinds of movements which indicate an attack is coming.

Knowing what I do now, I would've trained in judo back in junior high precisely to hone that skill. Then again, I haven't traded shots with anybody in nearly 25 years so what's it worth?

Quote from: Paul (ral) on Fri, 25 Jan  2019, 00:42As you have mentioned before breakfalls are the first thing you learn and the core of every class after that. A breakfall saved my life.

I'm very glad to hear that. You can learn how to respond to an attack on a cognitive level, but in order to implement that technique on the spur of the moment, when you mightn't have time to think about it, requires reflex action. This is why moves need to be practiced over and over, however tedious it might seem at the time. You're programming your muscles to respond intuitively. And once they've been programmed, I don't think those reflexes every fully go away. They might lessen over time if they aren't properly honed, but they're still hardwired into you.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 27 Jan  2019, 17:43I put things like that down to the fact that we're supposed to take Michael Keaton's physicality pretty much literally in the Burton films. As a comparison, Tom Welling's Clark on Smallville isn't meant to be taken completely literally. Tom Welling has sort of green eyes while Clark is always said to have baby blues. Clark has blue eyes while Welling has green eyes. That aspect of Tom Welling's features isn't meant to be taken literally, obviously.

But Burton wants us to believe someone matching Michael Keaton's exact specifications is Batman and that adds a level of grit and reality to the fight sequences where we see Batman use superior training and conditioning to overcome physically larger and stronger foes. It all works together to make the entire presentation more "credible" in a sense.

I've always thought this was a key factor in the enduring popularity of Keaton's Batman. It's much easier for the average viewer to identify with him than with someone like Kilmer or Bale. Burton took an average guy with a receding hairline and no martial arts experience and turned him into a cool, badass alpha male action hero who gets to date Kim Basinger and Michelle Pfeiffer. Every average guy who saw the Burton movies felt like that could be him. All Batman films have a power fantasy/wish fulfilment component, but that fantasy element feels somehow more obtainable in Burton's movies.

The casting of Keaton also placed a greater emphasis on the need for strategy in combat. Schumacher's Batman usually just drops into the middle of a fight and spins around like a Whirling Dervish, whereas Burton's is much slier. He uses the shadows to his advantage, plays dead and picks his enemies off one at a time. He's not above playing dirty when the odds are against him and only fights fair when he knows he has a shot at winning. Otherwise he uses weaponry, stealth and tricks to level the playing field.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 27 Jan  2019, 17:43I guess I hadn't fully connected the dots on that stuff. But it is a good point. And for Batman of all characters, I kind of don't care what the actor's preferences might be. I wouldn't send a stuntman in there to give a dramatic performance. So why would I want to send a film actor to do fight sequences that Batman is uniquely tailored to allow a stuntman to perform? It's interesting how the slow, ponderous fighting I envision when I think of Nolan's Batman is probably all Bale.

As good an actor as Bale might be, he leaves much to be desired as a stunt performer. Good catch on your part.

Bale's performed some decent fight scenes over the years, but he's never struck me as an extraordinarily impressive screen fighter. Obviously there's a difference between screen fighting and the mechanics of real combat. Someone might be amazing at exhibition fighting but lousy in a real brawl, or vice versa. Bale's had a lot more training than any of the other Batman actors, and I'm sure he can handle himself in real life. But on screen his move set is limited, he tends to telegraph his attacks far in advance of delivering them, and his striking speed isn't particularly fast.

That said, the only movie where I think his limitations were a problem was The Dark Knight. In Batman Begins Bale could move more freely during his out-of-costume fights, and for the costumed battles he had Buster Reeves to double for him. Reeves is faster than Bale and a lot more skilled. He was able to throw in some flashier moves to complement the more grounded KFM techniques...


...and the end result is a pleasant mixture of function and style. Overall, Batman Begins delivers a fairly consistent portrayal of Batman as an elite fighter. In The Dark Knight Rises Bruce is meant to be an older, broken-down wreck who's well past his prime, so it makes sense for him to be slower and off balance in that movie. But in The Dark Knight he's still meant to be in his prime, and yet his performance is inconsistent with what we saw in BB. Bale showcases some fast KFM combos during the garage fight.


I also like the nightclub fight scene. The choreography conveys how furious Batman is at this point in the story. He's less stealthy and doesn't bother to block many of the attacks. I particularly like this moment.


The bad guy smashes a bottle over Batman's head. Batman responds by intercepting his enemy's wrist, then uses his free hand to shatter the bottle before knocking his opponent out. He could have simply grabbed the guy's wrist and then knocked him out. But instead he takes a moment to destroy what's left of the bottle, thereby A) eliminating the weapon, and B) punishing his attacker by slicing up his hand and making sure he won't be able to use it for a while.

His fighting skills are less impressive during the fundraiser fight and his final showdown with the Joker. I can't really think of an in-universe reason to account for this, except perhaps that he was caught off guard by the Joker's sudden arrival in the former scene and just plain exhausted in the latter. But now I'm making excuses. The real life explanation is simply that Nolan's vision changed in between movies. BB is a much more comic bookish film than TDK or TDKR. Stylistically, I view it as the midway point between Batman 89 and The Dark Knight. And the fight choreography reflects this.

Anyway, getting back to the topic of Burton's Batman – how does everyone think the Burton Batman would have fared in combat against the villains from the later Batman films? Obviously we have to allow for differences in the way fights are staged, shot and edited from one production team to the next. But based on how he fought in Batman 89 and Batman Returns, and assuming he didn't learn any other martial arts after that, how would he have done against the later villains? How would the strengths and weaknesses of his fighting style have affected the outcome of those encounters? Would he have performed better than the other Batmen, or would he have struggled? Here's my take.

I think he would've breezed through all the villains in the Schumacher films without much difficulty, with the notable exception being Bane. Bane's size, strength and weight advantage, combined with his use of wrestling holds, would've posed a serious danger to the Burton Batman. He could have beaten Bane, but not in a direct fight. He would have had to use his intellect and weapons to level the playing field, much like Bat-Clooney did.

Mr. Freeze might also have been a challenge due to his size and strength. But at the end of the day, Freeze was too slow and unskilled to give the Burton Batman too much trouble. His vulnerability to heat also presented too obvious a weakness.

With Batman Begins I expect the four LOS ninjas and Ra's al Ghul would have been the toughest opponents. I think he could've beaten them, but not without difficulty. The four ninjas in particular would have posed a major threat and I think Bat-Keaton's lack of manoeuvrability would have proved a hindrance during that encounter.

With The Dark Knight I'd say the SWAT team would have been the toughest challenge, but as long as he had the right equipment he could've dealt with them. Besides having his batarang stolen by a poodle, we've never seen how the Burton Batman copes against animals. So it's hard to judge how he would've done against the Joker and his dogs during the final fight. That scenario might've caused him problems too.

The Dark Knight Rises is where the Burton Batman would really run into trouble. He could handle the basic henchmen, but Hardy's Bane would be a different story. Bane is probably the Nolanverse character that's closest to Bat-Keaton in terms of height, strength and skill. His pain threshold is insane, and his striking power devastating.


Obviously Bat-Keaton's moral code is different from Baleman's, and he might've simply ended the fight early on by hurling a napalm capsule in Bane's face. But in a fair fight, this one could go either way. Factor in the injuries Baleman was suffering from in TDKR and apply those to Bat-Keaton, and under those conditions there's a good chance Batman would lose.

Moving on to the DCEU, I'm going to skip the Superman battle because kryptonite renders skill irrelevant in that scenario. Regarding the warehouse fight, I don't think the Burton Batman could have taken down that many villains all at once the way Batfleck did, and certainly not in the time needed to save Martha Kent. I also don't think the Burton Batman would have survived going up against Doomsday. Batfleck only survived because he was fast and agile enough to dodge Doomsday's heat vision. But Bat-Keaton can't move like. He'd have been toast.

Similarly he wouldn't have lasted long against Steppenwolf and the Parademons. The Burton Batman could probably have defeated that first Parademon on the rooftops of Gotham. But once they started swarming him en masse their superior manoeuvrability and strength would overwhelm him. He might have survived going up against Steppenwolf, as the Burton Batman has metahuman levels of durability (see the Batwing crash for proof of this), but there's no way he'd defeat Steppenwolf.

What does everyone else think?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 29 Jan  2019, 23:49
Moving on to the DCEU, I'm going to skip the Superman battle because kryptonite renders skill irrelevant in that scenario. Regarding the warehouse fight, I don't think the Burton Batman could have taken down that many villains all at once the way Batfleck did, and certainly not in the time needed to save Martha Kent. I also don't think the Burton Batman would have survived going up against Doomsday. Batfleck only survived because he was fast and agile enough to dodge Doomsday's heat vision. But Bat-Keaton can't move like. He'd have been toast.

Similarly he wouldn't have lasted long against Steppenwolf and the Parademons. The Burton Batman could probably have defeated that first Parademon on the rooftops of Gotham. But once they started swarming him en masse their superior manoeuvrability and strength would overwhelm him. He might have survived going up against Steppenwolf, as the Burton Batman has metahuman levels of durability (see the Batwing crash for proof of this), but there's no way he'd defeat Steppenwolf.

What does everyone else think?

His best bet would be with some type of gadget or vehicle (any incarnation really, methods just differ).

West would reflect light off his highly polished utility belt, blinding Steppenwolf, as Robin shoots him with the bat ray.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  1 Feb  2019, 14:06His best bet would be with some type of gadget or vehicle (any incarnation really, methods just differ).

The Burton Batman would probably send the Batmobile in on remote control like he did at Axis Chemicals. And while this distracted/incapacitated the main group of henchmen, he'd sneak in and deal with KGBeast in person, similar to how he rescued Selina from the clown in Batman Returns. With the aid of his vehicles and gadgets, he probably could have saved Martha. But he would have needed a different strategy from the one used by Batfleck.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  1 Feb  2019, 14:06
West would reflect light off his highly polished utility belt, blinding Steppenwolf, as Robin shoots him with the bat ray.

Lol. I can totally imagine this happening.

West regularly battled Darkseid in the Galactic Guardians cartoon show back in the eighties, so I don't think Steppenwolf would be a problem for him. Ok, technically that wasn't the same Batman from the sixties TV show, but it was still West voicing him. West's physical feats in the sixties show were legit metahuman anyway. His reflexes were so fast he could whip out the Bat-shield and use it to deflect machine gun fire at close range. He was more agile than the Burton or Nolan Batmen, and with the aid of the Bat-rope and Bat-springs he was able to leap through the air with singular ease.


He was so strong he could casually throw heavy barbells several metres through the air as if they weighed nothing at all.


And as for durability – well how many other Batmen could endure having an explosive shark gnaw on their leg and emerge from the encounter without so much as a scratch? West and Affleck are the only live action Batmen that would stand a chance against Steppenwolf. And West probably had the best chance of actually beating him.

I'm not aware of the West Batman ever loosing a fight. He fought the Green Hornet to a standstill but there wasn't really a chance to finish it properly anyway.

Wondering how he'd do against Bane, first there's the reality that Bale's Batman was physically compromised and couldn't give Bane his best fight. So that's a lopsided comparison anyway. West's Batman also fights like a young man, nothing held back. But unlike Bale, West was not above using gadgets, smoke bombs and all that stuff to stun and overwhelm his opponents.

The fact that he kept himself physically fit and was a legit genius-level intellect meant he would've probably devised a few different ways of overcoming Bane. One of the most obvious vulnerabilities West's Batman would've focused in on is Bane's mask. I think West would've prioritized that early on and pounded away at the mask until Bane had been subdued.

From a tactical standpoint, I think West might even have employed a few similar tactics as Bale. He would've flooded Bane and his henchmen with police in order to occupy the League, distract Bane and wear down at least some of his agility before moving in himself. Then he would've used smoke bombs, batarangs and other things to chip away at Bane's defenses before moving in to finish him off with his fists.

It would've been a viable plan. Worst case scenario, Batman could've positioned Robin to fire off some kind of knock out gas to subdue Bane if the fight turned the other way. But I honestly don't think it would've been necessary.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun,  3 Feb  2019, 15:52The fact that he kept himself physically fit and was a legit genius-level intellect meant he would've probably devised a few different ways of overcoming Bane. One of the most obvious vulnerabilities West's Batman would've focused in on is Bane's mask. I think West would've prioritized that early on and pounded away at the mask until Bane had been subdued.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun,  3 Feb  2019, 15:52It would've been a viable plan. Worst case scenario, Batman could've positioned Robin to fire off some kind of knock out gas to subdue Bane if the fight turned the other way. But I honestly don't think it would've been necessary.

Agreed. In the Batman '66 comic the West Batman was able to endure Bane's backbreaker attack without sustaining any injuries. I don't think the Nolanverse Bane would cause him too much trouble. Even if he was losing in combat, Bat-West could always dose Bane with his universal Bat-antidote to counteract the effects of his anaesthetic. That would weaken him as surely as destroying his mask.

Either way, West wins.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun,  3 Feb  2019, 15:17
He was so strong he could casually throw heavy barbells several metres through the air as if they weighed nothing at all.

West's Batman was very strong. How strong? Robin was tied down on a printing press and about to become a comic book. Joker's two robots were trying to force Bruce Wayne to pull the lever to kill Robin. These robots were previously shown to bend and twist steel bars with ease. Bruce resisted two of these robots, who were pushing against his arm with all of their force, keeping the printing press lever at half way despite their best efforts. Based on this, West could hang with just about anybody.

I'd forgotten about that scene. Another good example of his superhuman strength can be found in the episode 'The Penguin Declines' where he breaks free of his metal chains by snapping them with pure brute force. West's Batman really was the GOAT.

Some can say the show was a parody, a grossly exaggerated version of reality that can't be taken seriously. But that is beside the point. We can only judge what is on the screen. West is the GOAT because he is adept across all areas. This man can run his guts out across the City, overtaking cars, and not break a sweat. He doesn't complain. He keeps a placid face and soldiers on. Why does he do it? Two simple reasons: because he has the ability to do it, and he isn't going to let the criminals win. If he has to run around the City 50 more times at the same speed he will do so.

This man is a public figure who has been made a deputy by the police department. Is he going to be the reason why evil wins? Is he going to let down the youngsters who admire him? To these questions, it's always a big fat NO. So he shoulders ANY burden and pushes through ANY roadblock put in front of him. Because if he doesn't, evil wins. West is a man who achieves the impossible because he refuses to accept defeat. Defeat is just not an option.

People can point and laugh at his costume all they want because West takes his responsibilities seriously. The bottom line with West boils down to this: the man with a cool head who thinks through his problems usually emerges victorious.

Circling back to the Taekwondo discussion, it appears that I'm not alone in my critique of the school's reliance on kicks. Taekwondo comes up in a Rogan discussion at the 04:50 mark in this video and Rogan is pretty open about the school's limitations, particularly with the relative lack of hand strikes.

EDIT- I'll find the proper Rogan video another time

Tbh, I have to piggyback on their critique and say I agree. I was instructed in taegeuk taekwondo and even as a kid I recognized that the taeguk forms are next door neighbors with Absolutely Useless. If a form is meant to teach muscle memory then the only fair assessment of taeguk forms is they're woefully outdated. Borderline anachronistic in the modern western world, frankly.

To tie all of this back to the subject at hand, I think Keaton's Batman would understand the limitations of taekwondo (particularly the taegeuk version) so he'd study it, absorb the useful strikes and kicks and then eschew everything else.

Shooting from the hip, I'll suggest that Keaton's Batman studied some school or another of taekwondo (taegeuk is my best guess) for six months, MAYBE a year, and then moved on to something else. I just can't believe he would need or want any longer study of this particular martial art than that.

In fact, after learning all these different fighting styles, I think it's realistic to believe Batman ended his overseas training and then returned home to build the bat-suit and then figure out how to incorporate all of the useful elements of the different styles he'd learned into something practical to use in his mission. That process alone probably required a full year of intensive study and labor on his part.

If recent news pans out, and the Burton Batman returns, how would you like to see his fighting style modified to accommodate his advancing years? Or should he just fight exactly like he did in the old films? A part of me would love to see the Flashpoint stunt team try to outdo the warehouse fight from BvS, but another part of me thinks the Keaton Batman's fighting style should be more appropriate for his age. Keaton is pushing seventy after all, and the Flashpoint Batman in the comics was also meant to be older and past his prime.


The Flashpoint Batman's fighting style largely consisted of punches, joint locks and throws, supplemented by the use of poison-tipped Batarangs. It was basically a mixture of Ninjutsu, Ju-Jitsu, Shurikenjutsu and boxing. This would be perfect for the ageing Burton Batman.

I think his approach to combat should have a more mysterious edge now that he's older, employing nerve strikes and joint locks to strategically incapacitate his opponents with minimal effort.


Jujitsu, Chin Na, Judo and Jeet Kune Do would all be good martial arts for this type of technique. If Keaton's Batman combined one of these disciplines with the kickboxing/street fighting style he used in the earlier films, then the result would be pretty similar to what we see in The Dark Knight Returns – a calm, strategic CQC technique that emphasises stealth and concise, brutal takedowns over flashy acrobatics or needless energy expenditure. An increased emphasis on Aikido would also be appropriate for his age, allowing him to turn the momentum of his enemies' attacks back against them.

For someone Keaton's age, stamina and physical strength will always be liabilities. There are 70 year olds out there who can probably eat your sack lunch. But they'll use specific methods because they have specific limitations.

In relation to that, I think Keaton's Batman would favor engagements where he can face a very limited number of opponents at one time. And when he does so, it would have to be quick and efficient. He would need to utilize strikes that immediately incapacitate his opponents with only a modest expenditure of energy on his part. Efficiency is the watch word here.

So as you imply, something like Wushu is probably out.

I suggested earlier that Keaton's Batman has a heavier reliance on boxing than most other Batmen. I stand by that and at 70, he'll need the boxing training more than ever. So that's definitely in.

My understanding is that ninjutsu favors unconventional tactics, elements of surprise and the like. It's almost more like a philosophy than a martial art. This ties in with my hunch that 70 year old Keaton Batman needs to turn the tables on his opponents. Perhaps set traps for his opponents in highly controlled situations. Whereas B89 Batman might be able to swing into a gang of eight opponents and take them all on, 70 year old Batman needs to bunch them together in a hot spot rigged with, idk, explosives, flash grenades, booby traps and so forth to thin the herd while he engages two or three opponents in brief, surgical strikes, devastating them with his speed and efficiency.

Shuriken play an indispensable role in that, no question.

I'm less convinced about Jujutsu, Brazilian jiu-jitsu and similar schools. Their emphasis on grappling, locks, ground fighting, etc all seem like a young man's game to me. Very taxing on strength and endurance that he doesn't necessarily have. I think aged Batman needs a dividend that those schools just can't provide anymore.

I think in his twilight years, Batman would favor something less exhausting. For combat, I think his reliance on karate would probably triple as compared to his younger years when he had greater mobility, flexibility, endurance, physical strength, etc.

The beauty of karate for me has always been its simplicity. A master might be able to stay more or less in one fixed location, thereby eliminating energy-intensive movements, postures, etc. The school's reliance primarily on hand strikes rather than kicks, flips and other nonsense would also be attractive for energy-conservation.

Combining a Miyagi-level mastery of karate with the above ninjutsu, shurikenjutsu and heaping helpings of Judo would be aged Batman's primary tools, I think. The nerve cluster strike Batman uses on the Mutant Leader in TDKR could be taken from a few different schools. I could see strikes like that originating from karate, or at least being a strike that a karate master would glom onto after a while.

So yeah, unless I'm overestimating aged Batman's weaknesses and physical limitations, I think a healthy blend of boxing, karate, ninjutsu, shurikenjutsu and Judo would be his main workhorses. Possibly Tai Chi for therapy purposes only.

My bias in this is that I'm a huge believer in karate. An authentic master would probably be able to hold his own against at least 90% of street lowlifes. And for that remaining 10%, there are the other tactics I mentioned.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  1 Jul  2020, 13:22
For someone Keaton's age, stamina and physical strength will always be liabilities. There are 70 year olds out there who can probably eat your sack lunch. But they'll use specific methods because they have specific limitations.

A continuation of the Burtonverse model would suit a 70 year old Keaton just fine.

Standing on the spot, raising his fists and waiting for the combatant to approach.
Raising a gauntlet to put down the somersaulting cathedral goon.
Throwing a remote control batarang.
Placing the bomb in the Strongman's pants.

And so forth. You get the idea.

If he does have a big dukeroo, I'd go for something like the Ray Charles bout during his last night out. He mostly gets his ass kicked but manages to endure the punishment, with the Batmobile or some other gadget saving his life. Heart trouble at the beginning of the encounter would be the catalyst, just as the batwing crash was the disadvantage in B89.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  1 Jul  2020, 13:22I'm less convinced about Jujutsu, Brazilian jiu-jitsu and similar schools. Their emphasis on grappling, locks, ground fighting, etc all seem like a young man's game to me. Very taxing on strength and endurance that he doesn't necessarily have. I think aged Batman needs a dividend that those schools just can't provide anymore.

When you have two equally skilled practitioners, then size and strength can be important factors. However back when I was training in Ju-Jitsu, I remember hearing a report of a female practitioner who fended off a large male attacker who broke into her home. Many Ju-Jitsu techniques entail using your opponent's bodyweight against them, exploiting joints and striking nerve clusters. When used against someone who's never trained in it, you can easily catch them off guard. It doesn't matter how big your enemy is – trap them in a wristlock and you can force them to their knees. Unless of course they've trained in the same technique, in which case the altercation is likely to progress into clinching and ground fighting. That's where strength and size can determine the outcome. Knowledge of Ju-Jitsu would be useful for Bat-Keats, if only as a defence against someone else trying to use it on him. Grappling isn't his strong point, as we saw when he fought Ray Charles and the Penguin, so he'd benefit from some extra training in that area.

In Batman 89 Bruce uses stealth and theatricality to get the edge on his opponents. He usually only takes on one or two of them at a time. In Batman Returns he's less subtle. This was the Burton Batman in his prime, and during the movie's biggest fight scene he casually positions himself in the middle of a street and waits for half of the circus gang to attack him at once. Take into account that these are trained fighters armed with weapons ranging from knives and crossbows to bazookas. Evidently Batman's confidence increased considerably between the 1989 film and BR.


By my count Batman takes down 13 goons in under 70 seconds, which means he averages approximately 5 seconds dismantling each opponent. The Batman in Flashpoint should be incapable of this due to his declining speed, agility and stamina. He should retain the strength and skill of his youth, but should tire more quickly and display a greater dependency on weapons and trickery. The sequence where Batman picks off the criminals on the construction site in the first chapter of The Dark Knight Returns is a good example of how he should operate.

When discussing older action heroes who can still school men less than half their age, we'd be remiss for not citing an example by the GOAT himself.


He intercepts his opponent's strike and exploits his size and weight to draw him off balance, traps him with a joint lock, then finishes him with off with a punch. This is how the older Burton Batman should fight. It'd be better if he only took on one opponent at a time, or at most a small group of two or three, and he should make careful use of stealth and bat-artillery. There's an opportunity here to really emphasise the mental side of Batman's abilities. Show him to be a brilliant detective and ingenious tactician to a degree that no previous film has shown. His intelligence should be reflected in his strategic and minimalistic approach to combat.

Of course if the rumours are true about him wearing the Kingdom Come suit, then we might not get to see much hand-to-hand combat in Flashpoint anyway. That's why I'd rather he wore a more traditional suit in Flashpoint and saved the KC armour for a later film like Batman Beyond of a Kingdom Come Justice League movie.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  2 Jul  2020, 12:17
Of course if the rumours are true about him wearing the Kingdom Come suit, then we might not get to see much hand-to-hand combat in Flashpoint anyway. That's why I'd rather he wore a more traditional suit in Flashpoint and saved the KC armour for a later film like Batman Beyond of a Kingdom Come Justice League movie.

I've been entertaining various ideas. If Keaton has been fighting crime for 30 years I quite like the idea we meet him in the Kingdom Come suit already, and perhaps with the exoskeleton. To show the toll the war has taken on his body, but not his mind. Bale needed this equipment because he was lazy, whereas Keaton would need it because he didn't give up. Batfleck has already used the abandoned Wayne Manor angle, so I wouldn't be advocating for that again, and so soon. I think everything else with Kingdom Come Batman is fair game though. Referring to himself as Batman full time would also be a meta reference to Keaton's own statements in real life, and of course circling back to B89's first scene. I think the fans would love that. That Bruce being known as Batman didn't limit his ability to do business with people like Lex, and it really would be something different. Burton's Bruce did find it hard to keep a lid on hid double life. "I don't have a crime boss like Cobblepot in my corner" - "Oswald controls the Red Triangle Circus Gang, I can't prove it yet".

Some of our regulars might be interested to know that this discussion has been referenced on a couple of other web sites. The Heroes Wiki lists most of the martial arts we identified in this thread under the section on the Burton Batman's fighting abilities. I'm assuming they got this info from us, since I'm not aware of anyone else analysing the fighting style of the Burton Batman in this much depth before we did. Their list mostly corresponds with ours.

https://hero.fandom.com/wiki/Batman_(Burton/Schumacherverse)#Abilities

Meanwhile an article was posted on Screen Rant last month titled '10 Things You Didn't Notice About Batman's Fighting Style'. No 2 on the list is all about the Burton Batman, and the author of the article was courteous enough to provide a link to this thread when citing their source.

https://screenrant.com/dc-comics-batman-fighting-style-moments/

We might not be the biggest Batman site, but evidently people do read the things we post here. We'll have to update our analysis when the Batman '89 comic comes out, and then again for The Flash movie.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri,  4 Jun  2021, 20:39
Some of our regulars might be interested to know that this discussion has been referenced on a couple of other web sites. The Heroes Wiki lists most of the martial arts we identified in this thread under the section on the Burton Batman's fighting abilities. I'm assuming they got this info from us, since I'm not aware of anyone else analysing the fighting style of the Burton Batman in this much depth before we did. Their list mostly corresponds with ours.

https://hero.fandom.com/wiki/Batman_(Burton/Schumacherverse)#Abilities

Meanwhile an article was posted on Screen Rant last month titled '10 Things You Didn't Notice About Batman's Fighting Style'. No 2 on the list is all about the Burton Batman, and the author of the article was courteous enough to provide a link to this thread when citing their source.

https://screenrant.com/dc-comics-batman-fighting-style-moments/

We might not be the biggest Batman site, but evidently people do read the things we post here. We'll have to update our analysis when the Batman '89 comic comes out, and then again for The Flash movie.

Screen Rant attributing sources? Wonders will never cease. I still consider them a bottom-feeding website. But they did the right thing there. Credit where it's due.

Ryan George remains the least funny man to ever attempt comedy tho. And to put that in perspective, his competition includes Will Ferrell.

So far the Batman '89 comic hasn't offered much expansion on the Burton Batman's fighting style, so in the absence of anything more meaningful to analyse I thought now might be a good time to look at some of the more recent martial arts scenes Keaton's performed in other movies. Most of his fighting in The Flash will likely be performed by stunt doubles, but hopefully he'll be able to do at least some of it himself. None of the Batman actors were particularly impressive screen fighters (hence the importance of their stunt doubles), and Keaton is no exception. But he did perform a respectable amount of the choreography in the old Batman movies, and he acquits himself well in these more recent fight scenes too. Take into account that he's in his mid-to-late sixties in these clips and that he's fighting much younger opponents.

First up is American Assassin (2017). This fight scene is mostly between Scott Adkins and Dylan O'Brien, but Keaton does get in on the action a little. The fighting style he uses here is based on Special Forces CQC techniques.


Next up is Martin Campbell's The Protégé (2021). The choreography in this film places a prominent emphasis on improvised weaponry and effective use of environmental factors. According to Campbell, Keaton did a lot of the fighting himself:

Quote"Michael keeps himself fit," Campbell said via a Zoom call. "He's in very good condition. And if actors commit to doing action, that's a huge advantage. Some actors merely say, 'Well you can use my double here.' Michael really got into it. He worked very hard to make it convincing. A lot of the punch-ups and so forth, he did them himself."

https://www.btlnews.com/industry-sector/film/martin-campbell-arthur-sarkissian-protege/

Here's Keaton versus a group of assassins.


And here's Keaton versus Maggie Q.


I don't know if any of these clips offer insight into what Batman's fighting style will be like in The Flash. What they do show is that Keaton's in solid shape for a man his age, and that he's still capable of pulling off a decent fight scene.

I've been checking out some versus threads on other sites, and quite a few people are proclaiming Keaton to be the most powerful live action Batman after his abilities got amped in The Flash. I'm not sure he's as powerful as West's version, but I'd say he's definitely leapt to the top of the WB movie leaderboard.

Before now I would have said that Batfleck beating Superman was the most impressive combat feat for any live action Batman. But now (SPOILERS for The Flash) I'd say Keaton subduing Nam-Ek is an even more impressive feat, for the following reasons:

•   Batfleck had kryptonite, Keaton didn't.
•   Batfleck had mech armour and other special weapons custom built for dealing with a Kryptonian, whereas Keaton just had his regular batsuit and standard equipment.
•   Batfleck had months of prep time, whereas Keaton's fight was a random encounter.
•   Superman wasn't trying to kill Batfleck, whereas Nam-Ek was definitely trying to kill Keaton.
•   Superman wasn't as heavily armoured as Nam-Ek, who was covered from head to toe in Kryptonian armour.
•   It took Batfleck the best part of ten minutes to subdue Superman, whereas Keaton, once he got up close with Nam-Ek, was able to knock him out in less than a minute.
•   Batfleck was still in his prime, while Keaton was old and out of practice after being retired.

Before The Flash I would've bet on Affleck's Batman to beat Keaton's in a fight. But now, my money would be on Keaton.

Nice analytical observations between Batkeats and Batfleck, Silver! I hadn't honestly really thought about it that much before reading your post, but you've convinced me.  ;D

Keaton's Batman wins. Perfect!

It's cool to see Keaton fighting this way. But at the same time if I'm being honest the movie has him moving too fast. Especially when he's throwing the batarangs and using the grapnel in combat. They don't highlight the obvious fact he's older - instead his age means nothing. I would've been fine with something equally badass from an experienced veteran but slower.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 19 Jun  2023, 03:13It's cool to see Keaton fighting this way. But at the same time if I'm being honest the movie has him moving too fast. Especially when he's throwing the batarangs and using the grapnel in combat. They don't highlight the obvious fact he's older - instead his age means nothing. I would've been fine with something equally badass from an experienced veteran but slower.

I suspected a short of beyond tec

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 21 Jan  2019, 23:32The Burton Batman also displays a proficiency at the Filipino martial art of Escrima when dealing with blade-wielding opponents. I'm pretty sure the choreography during the fight against the swordsman is derived from Escrima.

(https://i.imgur.com/Ol8E6JM.gif)

This could be considered off topic. But rewatching that gif now, I've always been very impressed with the swordsman. His posture, balance and that lunge at the end there all look pitch perfect to me.

Since I don't think I ever talked about your escrima point, that sequence alone indicates that Keaton's Batman subjected himself to some pretty intensive escrima training... and then adapted it for unarmed defensive combat.

If I'm interpreting that right, then I think that fact alone elevates Keaton's Batman to a level of mastery that none of the other Batmen can quite lay claim to. Because off-hand, I can't think of any other Batman who adapted a martial art form in quite such an ingenious way as improv in the middle of a life-or-death fight.

What I liked in TF was the racing against the clock type of Batman. Breaking open the floor and escaping getting crushed by a millisecond is in line with the spirit of Adam West, and that's what I'd like to see more of.

This YouTube creator has posted his own breakdown of the fighting styles used by the different cinematic Batmen. I don't know if he used our threads as a reference (I suspect he might have), but a lot of what he says concurs with our own analyses and research.


At the end he says he thinks Batfleck could beat the other Batmen in a fight. I would've agreed with that prior to seeing The Flash, but now I think Keaton would stand a very good chance of dominating Affleck. I've noted some new martial arts Keaton's Batman added to his repertoire in that movie, and now I'm just waiting for some decent quality clips to be uploaded to YouTube so I can post about it.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 30 Jun  2023, 19:20At the end he says he thinks Batfleck could beat the other Batmen in a fight. I would've agreed with that prior to seeing The Flash, but now I think Keaton would stand a very good chance of dominating Affleck. I've noted some new martial arts Keaton's Batman added to his repertoire in that movie, and now I'm just waiting for some decent quality clips to be uploaded to YouTube so I can post about it.

I've made my mind up about that. An older, out of practice Batman like Keaton shouldn't win against Batfleck. I'm at the point I don't believe what we're shown in The Flash. How he nimbly clambers over Nam-Ek, or takes down the guards after saying "this might hurt" doesn't ring true to me. Keaton didn't fight like that even in his prime. Perhaps he could've after Returns (adventures we didn't see), but not so long afterwards. Being older means experience, but is the body going to respond? That's the issue I can't shake from my mind.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 30 Jun  2023, 19:20At the end he says he thinks Batfleck could beat the other Batmen in a fight. I would've agreed with that prior to seeing The Flash, but now I think Keaton would stand a very good chance of dominating Affleck. I've noted some new martial arts Keaton's Batman added to his repertoire in that movie, and now I'm just waiting for some decent quality clips to be uploaded to YouTube so I can post about it.

I agree, as it's perceptible what the overall purpose was with BatKeats being now being so incredibly fluid and imperious during his fight scenes.

Being that BatKeats was intended to be the main DCEU Batman Post-The Flash, there's a very commonplace incentive to "offer more than/raise the ante" with abilities regarding variations/reboots of often-rebooted characters.

Keaton's return as Batman is no exception to this, and would have (had the original plans come to fruition) assuredly, been conveyed as a highly skilled powerhouse incarnation of Batman that could more than hold his own against theoretical battles with other Batman's.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 30 Jun  2023, 19:20This YouTube creator has posted his own breakdown of the fighting styles used by the different cinematic Batmen. I don't know if he used our threads as a reference (I suspect he might have), but a lot of what he says concurs with our own analyses and research.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeGYTEshFfA

At the end he says he thinks Batfleck could beat the other Batmen in a fight. I would've agreed with that prior to seeing The Flash, but now I think Keaton would stand a very good chance of dominating Affleck. I've noted some new martial arts Keaton's Batman added to his repertoire in that movie, and now I'm just waiting for some decent quality clips to be uploaded to YouTube so I can post about it.

It seems dumb to ask. But I'll ask anyway. Keaton's fight scenes were done by a stuntman, correct?

Like TDK, I have trouble believing that Batman would be as nimble as he's shown to be in TF at his age. It didn't ruin Keaton's participation in the movie for me. But I don't buy it either.

Still, as presented in TF, yeah, I think Keaton's Batman could overcome Affleck's Batman. However implausible that is, the character shown in TF went toe to toe with a Kryptonian and more than held his own.

This is a pretty important comparison because Cavill's Superman fought Nam-Ek in MOS (to a virtual standstill, in fact) and then fought Affleck's Batman in BVS. Frankly, Superman gave as good as he got against Affleck's Batman until that second helping of Kryptonite vapor. Affleck was pretty well on the ropes until that moment... even tho Affleck had been planning that fight for weeks, if not months.

Meanwhile, Keaton's Batman is shown doing quite well against Nam-Ek despite having virtually zero prep time.

If you ask me, those are factors which should be considered if we're going to reevaluate Keaton's prospects against Affleck.

EDIT- I'll give you a little more.

No matter what Keaton's agility and endurance are shown to be in TF, he's still OLD. And that's when energy conservation becomes the name of the game.

If we're going to hypothetically pit 71 year old Keaton Batman (his age right now) against 43 year old Affleck Batman (his age when BVS came out), we should take physical conditioning into account.

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  1 Jul  2023, 03:10Being that BatKeats was intended to be the main DCEU Batman Post-The Flash, there's a very commonplace incentive to "offer more than/raise the ante" with abilities regarding variations/reboots of often-rebooted characters.

Presumably the post-Flashpoint DCEU Batman would've been the ultimate fighter, since he would've been a composite of Keaton and Affleck, combining all of their skills and combat feats into a single being. That would've been something.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  1 Jul  2023, 04:56It seems dumb to ask. But I'll ask anyway. Keaton's fight scenes were done by a stuntman, correct?

Keaton's fight double on The Flash was British martial artist Ashley Beck. According to his IMDb page, Beck is a 5th degree black belt in Freestyle Kickboxing and has also trained in Capoeira, Taekwondo, Aikido and Karate (Shotokan and Wadō-ryū styles).


As well as performing Keaton's fight scenes, Beck served as his stand-in throughout the movie. He also doubled for him on the Batgirl film, which means Beck was the one wearing the suit in those first costume pics that leaked online early last year.

The fighting style Batman uses against the Russians is actually pretty close to the one shown in the Burton films, relying heavily on kickboxing (Shotokan and Taekwondo) mixed with some Aikido. The choreography is more fluid, as reflects modern trends, and there's some wirework at play, but it's still largely consistent with how he fought in the earlier films. The techniques he uses against the two Barrys and Nam-Ek are different, but I expect that's because in those scenes we're seeing him fight in a different context (out of costume, against a superhuman foe). Allowing for differences in how modern action scenes are shot and edited, I thought his martial arts skills in the silo fight were reasonably consistent with the old films.

Even so, his fighting style has definitely evolved. Batman now employs spinning back kicks, which he never used in B89 or BR. Spinning back kicks are fairly easy to execute. If you can perform a side kick while maintaining your balance, then you can probably perform a spinning back kick. The tricky part is that you have to turn your head to look at your target before throwing the kick itself, and this would've been impossible to do in the old batsuits. Had Lea or Keaton been able to turn their heads in the old costumes, then I'm sure they would've used spinning back kicks as well. So that move doesn't feel out of place in The Flash.

In Batman Returns Keaton made frequent use of headbutts and backhand strikes, neither of which I recall him using in The Flash. So that's another difference. Obviously he's also a lot more agile in The Flash than he was in the older films. Some might say too agile. Other than that though, his fighting style is mostly consistent. I spotted techniques from at least three new martial arts in The Flash that he didn't use in the earlier films. But again, I'd rather wait until decent quality clips appear online before going into more detail about that.

Here's a quote from Michael Keaton regarding his very first costumed fight scene in Batman '89, where he battles the two muggers on the rooftop. Carl Newman performed the wirework and shots of Batman spreading his cape in that scene, and Sean McCabe would've taken the fall after Batman gets shot by the muggers, but it was Keaton himself who performed the bit where Batman kicks Eddie through the door.


Here's what Keaton had to say about it.

Quote"I could barely move in that suit. To this day, one hip has not been right because I practiced when I first kicked that guy on the roof, and it was very difficult to get my foot up that high. It was like fifty thousand rubber bands holding you down."

https://www.slashfilm.com/1322342/michael-keaton-updated-batsuit-the-flash-practicality/

Supposedly he did multiple takes of that shot and ended up pulling a muscle in his hip. That injury might have been a factor in why Dave Lea was brought in midway through the shoot.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  1 Jul  2023, 04:56If we're going to hypothetically pit 71 year old Keaton Batman (his age right now) against 43 year old Affleck Batman (his age when BVS came out), we should take physical conditioning into account.

When I compare them, I like to imagine both Batmen being young and in their prime.

It's hard to say when Keaton's Batman was at his physical peak. He's obviously past it in The Flash, though still highly capable. And I don't think he'd reached his prime yet in Batman '89, since he was still in his Year One phase back then and something of a rookie.

That leaves Batman Returns as our best look at Bat-Keaton in his prime. Either that or the flashback fight scene from Batgirl, which we might never get to see. I like to think that Keaton was approaching his prime in Batman Returns, and that he would've peaked sometime afterwards. Perhaps when he fought the Riddler and Mister Freeze.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  1 Jul  2023, 16:00Here's a quote from Michael Keaton regarding his very first costumed fight scene in Batman '89, where he battles the two muggers on the rooftop. Carl Newman performed the wirework and shots of Batman spreading his cape in that scene, and Sean McCabe would've taken the fall after Batman gets shot by the muggers, but it was Keaton himself who performed the bit where Batman kicks Eddie through the door.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wvc2hzMJ/Keaton-kick.gif)

Here's what Keaton had to say about it.

Quote"I could barely move in that suit. To this day, one hip has not been right because I practiced when I first kicked that guy on the roof, and it was very difficult to get my foot up that high. It was like fifty thousand rubber bands holding you down."

https://www.slashfilm.com/1322342/michael-keaton-updated-batsuit-the-flash-practicality/

Supposedly he did multiple takes of that shot and ended up pulling a muscle in his hip. That injury might have been a factor in why Dave Lea was brought in midway through the shoot.

That shot of Batman kicking always concerned me as it looked like he fell over conducting that kick. Could always tell that was Keaton by the facial expression alone and I will freely admit that I fell over myself trying to do this kick and I didn't have a Batsuit on. Another reminder of how taxing these films are on the actors.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  1 Jul  2023, 04:56Like TDK, I have trouble believing that Batman would be as nimble as he's shown to be in TF at his age. It didn't ruin Keaton's participation in the movie for me. But I don't buy it either.

We're also meant to believe the explosives Batman uses on Nam-Ek are stronger than anything MOS Superman can muster. On one hand I like that Keaton's in the movie because the actual acting he does (not the CGI stuff) is good, as is his general character arc. But now that it's over and done I'm wondering if it was worth it? The Flash was a flop. For better or worse his time in the role came to a close in 1992.

Bale was apparently harassed to appear in The Flash but he said no. I have to say good on him. People can say what they want about Dial of Destiny, but in contrast that accurately leans in to Indy's age and the last we see him he's alive (even if that part was a reshoot, it's for the best and goes against the current trend). But Harrison coming back in the first place is also up for debate - there's something to be said for remaining a treasured memory. People like him and Keaton have nothing to prove or gain from doing more other than the financial side.

Here's my take on Keaton's updated fighting style in The Flash. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm mistaken, or to add your own observations.

Keaton's Bruce is highly skilled at using throwing weapons. We saw him throw a couple of batarangs in the earlier films, but his skills have now evolved to Bullseye-levels of improvisation.


Perhaps the most impressive example of this is during the silo fight where he ricochets a batarang off the wall to hit a target behind him.


In the earlier movies we saw Keaton throw weapons in a boomerang fashion so that they curved through the air to hit or trip their targets, but in The Flash we see him throwing weapons directly like shurikens. So I'd say Shurikenjutsu should be added to his list of martial arts.


When Bruce fights the two Barrys at stately Wayne Manor, he adopts a crouched stance atop the kitchen table, keeping his centre of gravity low and swinging his entire body with each attack. This might be a stretch, but I think the technique Bruce is employing here is derived from the Afro-Brazilian martial art Capoeira. Mostly with regards to the crouched rotational way he moves his body.


Keaton's stunt double Ashley Beck has trained in Capoeira and Barry actually mentions this martial art in the dialogue at one point. Also note that Bruce is barefoot during this fight scene, as Capoeira is traditionally practiced barefoot.

Alternatively, he could be using the Drunken Fist form of Shaolin Kung Fu in this scene. He certainly moves like a drunk, and even swigs from a bottle at one point, yet the fact he appears perfectly sober immediately afterwards suggests his movements are intentional. So it could be Drunken Fist. But if I had to pick one martial art as the basis for this scene, I'd go with Capoeira.

I don't know what you'd call this move.


Earlier in the thread I highlighted the flying body press Batman tries to execute during the cathedral fight in B89 as an example of wrestling. I suppose you could describe this as a wrestling technique too, though it's clearly very OTT. He lifts an enemy up with one hand and slams him down into the ground again, somewhat like a choke slam.

Bruce also performs a suplex in the Batman '89 comic, further suggesting he has some wrestling skills. I don't consider that comic part of the canon, but since we're discussing the Burton Batman's wrestling abilities I thought it was relevant to mention.


Keaton still uses kickboxing, but now he's expanded his skills to include Muay Thai, also known as Thai boxing. A good example of this is the following sequence, where he floors one opponent with a low kick sweep...


...before taking down another with a combo that includes a spinning back elbow.


These are both Muay Thai techniques.

Dave Lea also trained in Muay Thai, and some of the shin blocks Batman used in the earlier films could've been derived from that discipline.


Batman throws a soldier using a two-handed grip. This resembles the double lapel grab, which I was taught in both Judo and Ju-Jitsu classes. Many other martial arts use it, but Batman's use of the grab here is probably an example of Aikido.


We already noted Batman using some Aikido techniques in Batman Returns, and Ashley Beck has definitely trained in that martial art (as had Dave Lea), so I'm going to list this throw as an example of Aikido.

To sum up, the Keaton Batman's fighting style across his three movies seems to incorporate techniques from the following:

•    Ninjutsu
•    Hapkune Do
•    Shotokan Karate
•    Taekwondo
•    Muay Thai
•    Escrima
•    Capoeira
•    Aikido
•    Boxing
•    Street fighting
•    Wrestling
•    Shurikenjutsu

If I'm right, then he's proficient in at least a dozen different styles of fighting. That's the same number of fighting styles we counted for the Nolan Batman.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 22 Jul  2023, 14:51in The Flash we see him throwing weapons directly like shurikens. So I'd say Shurikenjutsu should be added to his list of martial arts.

I was planning to mention this myself.

And personally, I extrapolated a plot point from that.

We see Batman use a next generation Batarang in BR to take out various members of the Red Triangle gang. Obviously, the Batarang gets intercepted before it can take out the Poodle Lady. But it knocks out everyone else well enough... after Batman has programmed it.

But in TF, it doesn't seem like Bruce needs the programmable Batarang anymore.

And so, the way I interpret that is to suggest that some time after the events of BR, Bruce expanded his repertoire to eliminate his reliance on technology to use projectiles to take out multiple targets simultaneously. And if there's a better way to do that other than Shurikenjutsu, then I guess I can't think of what it might be.

Why would he want to master Shurikenjutsu at such a late stage in life? Again, we can make all kinds of speculation there. Maybe the Red Triangle gang unwittingly exposed some holes in his martial arts program? Or maybe after BR, he encountered some other set of circumstances that required him to learn Shurikenjutsu?

Either way, it SEEMS like he learned Shurikenjutsu AFTER BR. And he seems to have become quite a master of it as well.

At this point, it's quite possible that the only other Batman who could defeat Keaton is West. But I'm not sure any of the other Batmen would be able to prevail against him at this point. Because Keaton's abilities now include fighting with projectiles from afar, fighting up close, grappling, wrestling moves and other things.

Keaton's Batman is just plain DANGEROUS now. Not to be trifled with.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Jul  2023, 17:10We see Batman use a next generation Batarang in BR to take out various members of the Red Triangle gang. Obviously, the Batarang gets intercepted before it can take out the Poodle Lady. But it knocks out everyone else well enough... after Batman has programmed it.

But in TF, it doesn't seem like Bruce needs the programmable Batarang anymore.

And so, the way I interpret that is to suggest that some time after the events of BR, Bruce expanded his repertoire to eliminate his reliance on technology to use projectiles to take out multiple targets simultaneously. And if there's a better way to do that other than Shurikenjutsu, then I guess I can't think of what it might be.

Why would he want to master Shurikenjutsu at such a late stage in life? Again, we can make all kinds of speculation there. Maybe the Red Triangle gang unwittingly exposed some holes in his martial arts program? Or maybe after BR, he encountered some other set of circumstances that required him to learn Shurikenjutsu?

Either way, it SEEMS like he learned Shurikenjutsu AFTER BR. And he seems to have become quite a master of it as well.

That explanation makes sense, considering all the trouble the high-tech batarang caused him in Batman Returns. In mastering Shurikenjutsu, he shed his reliance on that technology and made it harder for enemies to use it against him. His more prominent use of throwing weapons might also reflect his advanced age. Taking down as many foes as possible with ranged weapons leaves him with fewer enemies to deal with up close.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Jul  2023, 17:10At this point, it's quite possible that the only other Batman who could defeat Keaton is West. But I'm not sure any of the other Batmen would be able to prevail against him at this point. Because Keaton's abilities now include fighting with projectiles from afar, fighting up close, grappling, wrestling moves and other things.

Keaton's Batman is just plain DANGEROUS now. Not to be trifled with.

Prior to The Flash, I would've said Baleman had a slight skill advantage over Keaton. But that skill gap has arguably closed now. They're roughly equal in martial arts skill (though I still think Baleman fought the most skilled opponents in the form of Ra's al Ghul and Bane), and possibly equal in durability. But Keaton outclasses Baleman when it comes to speed, agility, strength and intelligence.

And the old argument about ruthlessness still stands – Baleman wields smoke pellets and tranquilisers, while Keaton wields napalm and explosives powerful enough to knock out a Kryptonian. Baleman would put up a good fight, but Keaton would win.

The Schumacher Batman's one advantage over Keaton was his agility. But after Keaton's agility got amped in The Flash, he no longer has that advantage. The Schumacher Batman could hold his ground for a short time, but he wouldn't put up as good a fight as Baleman did. Keaton would win again.

Battinson wouldn't stand a chance against Keaton. That's not a knock against Reeves' movie, but merely acknowledgement of the more grounded approach he took to the action scenes. I'm sure Battinson's fighting skills will improve in the sequels, but right now he's a rookie and hasn't performed any combat feats to suggest he could compete with the other cinematic Batman. So for the time being, I'd place him at the bottom of the cinematic rankings when it comes to fighting skill.

West is unstoppable. A while back I drafted a thread like this about West's fighting skills, a lot of which was just listing examples of his ridiculous reflex, strength and durability feats. I'll try to get that thread finished and posted at some point, but for now here's a quick example to illustrate his superiority. Keaton is strong enough to throw a goon this distance.


Ok, not bad. Not bad at all. But West is strong enough to throw a goon this distance.


The best Keaton or any other Batman could hope for when going up against West would be to subdue him long enough to place him in an inescapable death trap. But even then, West would promptly escape the inescapable trap and defeat them in the rematch. So West would win.

Batfleck would be a challenge to Keaton. He has a size advantage over him, and they're more or less equal in terms of strength, durability, speed and agility. But I'd say Keaton is more intelligent, and according to the number of fighting styles we noted in this thread https://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=3829.0 Keaton has a slight skill advantage.

I'd also repeat the comparison I made earlier in this thread regarding their performances against Kryptonians. It took Affleck the best part of ten minutes to subdue a Kryptonian who wasn't trying to kill him, and that was with prep time, special armour and kryptonite. Keaton subdued a homicidal armoured Kryptonian in under thirty seconds without prep time or kryptonite, using just his standard gear.

Batfleck would put up an even better fight than Bale, but I'd still have to give the victory to Keaton. It'd be close though.

This is how I'd rank the Batmen's chances in a fighting tournament:

1.    West
2.    Keaton
3.    Batfleck
4.    Baleman
5.    Schumacher
6.    Battinson

If anyone disagrees, feel free to argue your case.