Does anybody else like the scene where Batman replays the TV news footage, where he failed to save Harvey from getting disfigured by Maroni? I dig Batman's desperation as he leaps forward to save his friend, and how Bruce looks back at the footage with deep regret now that Dent became the deranged Two-Face. Now people might ask how could Batman know that Dent was about to have acid thrown onto his face, but I say who cares? I think we can let the excuse "he's Batman" slide this time for once.
It's probably Batman's greatest loss, following his inability to save Catwoman from herself if you do want to view BF as a sequel to BR.
I agree, and it's too bad they didn't show their friendship more in the movie, except in Two-Face's last line: Why yes, of course- you're right, Bruce. Emotion is always the enemy of true justice. Thank you. You've always been a good friend.
I always wished there could've been a longer flashback to that moment instead of old news footage of it. Then again, Batman's conflict with Two Face doesn't really revolve around the emotional baggage of Bruce's friendship with Harvey so maybe it's not necessary.
It is a sequel to returns. But I like the scene too. It feels a little out of place, but it's not a big deal.
This moment is underrated. No one really acknowledges that it's the only adaptation to stay true to Two-Face's comic book origin (it's practically Detective Comics #66 brought to life) and the only adaptation of Maroni to actually do his role from the comics and scar Dent.
As for how Batman could tell that Maroni was going for it, I always figured it was like the comics where Batman saw that Maroni had something hidden on him before Dent did.
In my opinion, they should have explored the emotional baggage behind Batman's guilt over Dent turning into Two-Face, considering that they used to be allies and that Batman was too late to stop Maroni from throwing the acid. What makes it more poetic for Two-Face to be behind the Graysons' deaths, then, is that Batman probably feel guilt over their deaths as well (in his mind, if he had saved Harvey from becoming Two-Face, the Graysons would still be alive). It's this guilt that would influence him to look after Dick.
Also, there's something poetic about the former ally (Two-Face) fighting the new, upstart ally (Robin).
I get that it was hard to flesh out so many characters (Chase, Nygma, Dent, Dick, and even Kilmers Bruce) but it would have been interesting if they connected Dent to batman more. I think I posted this before but it would have been unique for a superhero to have two villains with one enemies of the alter ego (Riddler vs. Bruce Wayne) and the other having a vendetta against the masked hero (Two face vs. Batman). It would have made the scene of Riddler solving the great mystery of who is batman more meaningful. I know in essence this was the case but I felt the film could have further emphasized this.
What I'd have done was play off Dent's OCD as well as loyalty to the coin; establish a connection of Batman and Dent in which Batman wants to contain Dent but not beat him. As well have situations where Dent has Batman beaten but the coin saves Batman.
Quote from: riddler on Wed, 26 Aug 2015, 03:55it would have been unique for a superhero to have two villains with one enemies of the alter ego (Riddler vs. Bruce Wayne) and the other having a vendetta against the masked hero (Two face vs. Batman). It would have made the scene of Riddler solving the great mystery of who is batman more meaningful. I know in essence this was the case but I felt the film could have further emphasized this.
If I follow what you're saying about tying Bruce more closely to Harvey, it wouldn't have emphasized the point; it would have muddied it. Two Face was gunning for Batman so playing up Bruce's friendship with Harvey wouldn't have clarified much of anything.
A problem is that it's been two years since Two-Face was captured by Batman in the movie, so a lot might have changed regarding Bruce's feelings about Harvey and likewise. If they had started the movie with Harvey Dent and turned him into Two-Face it would've been different. But like you guys said, they'd have to drop the focus on another character, Chase, Robin or Riddler or the movie would feel crowded.
I have my reservations for how over-the-top Two-Face is in this movie, but I don't have any complaints with the way he was introduced. There's only so much screen-time characters can share for a two hour movie, so that's another reason why the courtroom flashback scene was spot on for me.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue, 25 Aug 2015, 21:40
This moment is underrated. No one really acknowledges that it's the only adaptation to stay true to Two-Face's comic book origin (it's practically Detective Comics #66 brought to life) and the only adaptation of Maroni to actually do his role from the comics and scar Dent.
As for how Batman could tell that Maroni was going for it, I always figured it was like the comics where Batman saw that Maroni had something hidden on him before Dent did.
In my opinion, they should have explored the emotional baggage behind Batman's guilt over Dent turning into Two-Face, considering that they used to be allies and that Batman was too late to stop Maroni from throwing the acid. What makes it more poetic for Two-Face to be behind the Graysons' deaths, then, is that Batman probably feel guilt over their deaths as well (in his mind, if he had saved Harvey from becoming Two-Face, the Graysons would still be alive). It's this guilt that would influence him to look after Dick.
Also, there's something poetic about the former ally (Two-Face) fighting the new, upstart ally (Robin).
Excellent post. You can say it's equally poetic that Batman may have failed to redeem Two-Face, but he redeemed Robin in the end, by making sure that his influence and intervention saved Dick from entering that vengeful cycle.
Quote from: riddler on Wed, 26 Aug 2015, 03:55
I get that it was hard to flesh out so many characters (Chase, Nygma, Dent, Dick, and even Kilmers Bruce) but it would have been interesting if they connected Dent to batman more. I think I posted this before but it would have been unique for a superhero to have two villains with one enemies of the alter ego (Riddler vs. Bruce Wayne) and the other having a vendetta against the masked hero (Two face vs. Batman). It would have made the scene of Riddler solving the great mystery of who is batman more meaningful. I know in essence this was the case but I felt the film could have further emphasized this.
What I'd have done was play off Dent's OCD as well as loyalty to the coin; establish a connection of Batman and Dent in which Batman wants to contain Dent but not beat him. As well have situations where Dent has Batman beaten but the coin saves Batman.
There's an allusion to that in the film actually, where batman tells two-face, "You need help Harvey." But it's not heavily played on. There's a line though that I think plays a little into what Bruce feels like is his failure with Harvey where he tells Dick, "I've dedicated my life to helping people I've never met,
face's I've never seen. Well, the
face's aren't
faceless anymore." I don't know if it's meant to really allude to anything with Bruce, but I've found that line interesting recently.
I'm okay with that scene; however I always thought it was a little bizarre Batman would conveniently come jumping out from a crowd of courtroom spectators as if he was just standing there all along. I've always viewed Batman as a hero who mostly stays cloaked in darkness except for a few whom he trusts like Gordon. This was another example of where Schumacher was taking the series by gearing the tone towards comic book sensibilities. Batman was now a common sight in courtroom dramas and even promotional events for the city.
I found this snarky blog post that didn't take too kindly to this scene; complaining why the scene sucks, and having a dig at the whole movie for its change of tone it brought to the series once Tim Burton left. The blogger acknowledges the scene is faithful Two-Face's backstory in the Golden Age comics, but claims "what works in comics doesn't necessarily work on film".
Quote
WHY I LOATHE IT:
It presents more questions than it answers.
How did Batman get into the court room?
Did he arrive via tube, ala Futurama, since the film had earlier established that Bruce Wayne can apparently travel from his office at Wayne Enterprises to the bat cave via a trap door and an underground series of tubes?\
Or did he show up at court as Bruce Wayne and sneak into a bathroom to retrieve a strategically hidden batsuit left for him by Alfred? If so, did seriously no one notice him re-enter the room looking like that?
Or, since this is a point in his story where the police commissioner beckons him with a giant signal from atop police headquarters, is he just generally accepted wherever he pleases in the Gotham City justice system? Did the court have to beckon him with their own bat signal?
Or was he some sort of invited guest? Was he there as an expert witness of some sort? How would that even go, "Please state, for the record, your full name, sir." "I'm Bruce Way....crap! I mean...I'm Batman!"
Is this a new Law & Order phase of his crime-fighting career, where he both delivers the criminals to the authorities and then follows up at their court cases to bully and intimidate the bad guys? Is he just always sitting in the back of the court room, feet up on the aisle in front of him, reading a newspaper, perhaps with novelty glasses and a funny beard on over his mask to make people think he's not Batman?
Also, how did he know the mobster was about to throw that acid? Does he just periodically lunge at witnesses in anticipation of them doing something nefarious?
Source: https://weminoredinfilm.com/2013/03/29/i-loathe-that-scene-batmans-day-in-court-in-batman-forever/
In my opinion, we can speculate what was Batman doing in the courtoom and how he saw Maroni holding the bottle of acid all we want, but I don't see how Two-Face's insane transformation is any more ridiculous than having him getting manipulated by his girlfriend's killer in TDK. Give me a break. I reckon BF's explanation that the acid scarred and corrupted the other half of his brain is far more plausible compared to that.
Batman wasn't 'standing' in the courtroom. He found out Maroni's plot and rushed there to save Dent but was too late.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue, 25 Aug 2015, 21:40
No one really acknowledges that it's the only adaptation to stay true to Two-Face's comic book origin (it's practically Detective Comics #66 brought to life) and the only adaptation of Maroni to actually do his role from the comics and scar Dent.
Looking at it again, this scene is perhaps the most faithful backstory for a Batman villain in live action to date. Possibly even all of DC Comics adaptations. I'm hard pressed to think of any other film villain in the entire franchise that has a faithful past, other than maybe Harley Quinn in Suicide Squad. But then again, Harley was originally created for TV, and the abuse and manipulation was added a little later both for animation and comics.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 29 Apr 2016, 10:58weminoredinfilm.com
weminoredinfilm.com?
We Minored In Film? Holy balls, do they think having a minor in something so idiotic gives them cred or something?
Whatever I may be lacking personally, professionally or whatever else, at least I'm not those losers. I can wake up tomorrow morning and better my situation.
But they'll still be losers.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 4 Jan 2018, 02:08
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 29 Apr 2016, 10:58weminoredinfilm.com
weminoredinfilm.com?
We Minored In Film? Holy balls, do they think having a minor in something so idiotic gives them cred or something?
Whatever I may be lacking personally, professionally or whatever else, at least I'm not those losers. I can wake up tomorrow morning and better my situation.
But they'll still be losers.
Ha, indeed. Nowadays, I refuse to desecrate this forum with links to hipsters spewing rubbish like that blog. They deserve nothing but contempt.