Again, like Doc's TDK Rises thread, you have to stick to the general framework of the film and treat B89, Batman Returns, and Batman Forever as they currently exist.
Basically- you still have to have it as a sequel to Batman Forever, with Batman and Robin and Batgirl vs. Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, and Bane.
This should be interesting...
These threads are a great idea. But with a movie like Batman and Robin, it's hard to know where to start.
One of the first things I'd change about Batman and Robin would be to make Bane more intelligent. Not necessarily the genius he's meant to be in the comics, but an independently-minded character who could think for himself.
The movie never explains why he slavishly obeys everything Ivy tells him to do. I'd have it so that he breaks loose from his chains round about the same time Ivy is murdering Woodrue. Bane then tears off his mask and goes on a rampage, slaughtering everyone in the lab. He's the one who starts the lab fire, not Ivy. It reaches the point where Ivy is the only person left alive, and she's scared. Bane corners her and is about to kill her when suddenly he's overcome by withdrawal symptoms. His last dose of Venom is wearing off. Ivy tells him she's the only person who knows the formula, and from then on she has complete control over him. She makes him put his mask back on and forces him to debase himself as her slave.
Throughout the film Bane would be plotting to kill Ivy. But every time he tries defying her, she withdraws his supply of Venom and threatens to let him go cold turkey. She indulges her misandric impulses by treating Bane like garbage, all the while relishing the power she has over him. The relationship between them is a ticking time bomb of distrust. It eventually detonates during the showdown in the Turkish baths.
Instead of Batgirl fighting Ivy while Batman and Robin are ensnared in the vines, I'd have it so that Batman fights Bane while Robin is ensnared. Batman emerges triumphant and Ivy starts screaming at Bane, calling him useless and saying she should have left him to die in South America. At this point Bane has had enough. He picks Ivy up and breaks her back on his knee. He then grabs the last few remaining vials of Venom and makes a run for it while Batman is distracted cutting Robin free from the vines. The next thing they know Batman and Robin find themselves surrounded by Ivy's killer plant hybrids (which were conveniently forgotten in the finished movie), but luckily Batgirl shows up and rescues them (got to give her a reason to make an appearance in this scene).
Bane then goes to join Freeze, hoping the doctor will help him create more Venom if he assists him in defeating Batman. He wanders off into a dark corner and injects himself with the remaining vials of Venom, ODing and placing himself in a PCP-like blood frenzy. He fights Batgirl and Robin like he does in the finished film, only this time he wipes the floor with them. He's stronger than ever and almost kills them both. But just as he's lifting Batgirl over his head, getting ready to break her back, he starts to come down from his OD. He topples backwards and falls off the cliff. Robin just about manages to grab Batgirl's hand before she falls with him. They then watch as Bane plummets to his death.
Wouldn't that make Bane's role in the narrative a little more interesting, while at the same time bringing his personality more in line with the comic book version?
It would. Thanks for kicking the thread off to a good start! I would've loved that version of Bane.
I haven't seen the film in years, so I can't contribute much at the moment.
One little change I'd make is altering Barbara Wilson's name to Betty Kane. As noted by Silver Nemesis in his feature, the character already has elements of the Betty Kane Batgirl and I think they could've just gone all the way and named her that.
While I'm sure someone could come up with a way to bring the Barbara Gordon Batgirl into the story and retain the same structure, I feel it was actually smart for the character to be connected to Alfred in the context of Batman & Robin. Gordon has been a minor character in the previous movies, so introducing Barbara Gordon wouldn't have nearly the same effect as introducing a family member of Alfred's.
Not to mention that Alicia Silverstone's blonde hair and cowl-less mask makes her a closer match for Betty than for Barbara. Naming her Betty Kane would've just evoked the Silver Age comics that B&R emulates:
http://www.batman-online.com/features/2011/4/3/comic-influences-on-schumacher-batman-robin-1997/3
Still, this is more of a fan preference than a fix. The name of Barbara Wilson is hardly a flaw of the movie. After my inevitable rewatch of the film, I may return with some ideas.
Some may consider this heresy but I'm relatively satisfied with what we got.
Still, nothing's perfect. If I had control over it, I might want obvious stuff deleted. The bat-credit card, several (but not all) of Freeze's ice puns and the like.
Silver, you're a damn genius. That's the perfect fix for Bane.
I also agree about trimming some of the puns from the script.
But my biggest change is one that alters the rules of the game. I'd completely cut Batgirl from the script. Given that, the rest of the elements could better breath, and we'd be spared some of the worst parts of the flick. Silverstone's Barbara is the only aspect of the film I can't defend and am greatly irked by, simply for its uselessness overall and her awful performance. The worst in the film!
I wouldn't change much about Posion Ivy, just make her less cheesy and more threatening. I'd make Freeze more dramatic and get rid of the ice puns. Make Barbara be Gordon's daughter and also give Pat Hingle more lines. Cut Bane or make him appear at the end to set him up for a sequel (Batman Triumphant?)
i would take bane and batgirl out completely, first. bane was so pointless and it made things too crowded (sorry silver, not a fan of your idea either) and its called "batman and robin." we don't need to make things even further too crowded by throwing in batgirl.
for the villains i'd make freeze more like the cartoon version that was so tragic and sympathetic and have ivy exploit that behind his back because all she needs him for is for him to freeze everything and everyone, then she can thaw it (killing him horribly in the process as he would have discarded his suit, not that she cares about any human life at this point) and start things over with her as a literal mother nature. in the end, she tells him she killed nora (instead of relying on batsy to deliver the message hismelf) and he nearly kills her by freezing her up to her neck. batman stops him by telling him nora is alive and if he kills ivy there's no way they will let him continue his research in prison, so he thaws her and punches her out, um, cold (i'm cutting most of the puns but that one just fit) and they are both sent to arkham. ivy is put in this awful concrete cell and never given any contact with her beloved plants while freeze is put in his cold cell and with private funding from bruce wayne is allowed to keep working on his research to find a cure for nora who will be kept on ice (sorry) until he is released or finds a cure, whichever comes first.
i would have batman and robin working as partners throughout the movie and save their contention and ultimate split for the fifth movie since if we're doing it my way instead of joel's we get a fifth movie lol.
Quote from: Catwoman on Sat, 10 Aug 2013, 07:03
i would take bane and batgirl out completely, first. bane was so pointless and it made things too crowded (sorry silver, not a fan of your idea either) and its called "batman and robin." we don't need to make things even further too crowded by throwing in batgirl.
for the villains i'd make freeze more like the cartoon version that was so tragic and sympathetic and have ivy exploit that behind his back because all she needs him for is for him to freeze everything and everyone, then she can thaw it (killing him horribly in the process as he would have discarded his suit, not that she cares about any human life at this point) and start things over with her as a literal mother nature. in the end, she tells him she killed nora (instead of relying on batsy to deliver the message hismelf) and he nearly kills her by freezing her up to her neck. batman stops him by telling him nora is alive and if he kills ivy there's no way they will let him continue his research in prison, so he thaws her and punches her out, um, cold (i'm cutting most of the puns but that one just fit) and they are both sent to arkham. ivy is put in this awful concrete cell and never given any contact with her beloved plants while freeze is put in his cold cell and with private funding from bruce wayne is allowed to keep working on his research to find a cure for nora who will be kept on ice (sorry) until he is released or finds a cure, whichever comes first.
i would have batman and robin working as partners throughout the movie and save their contention and ultimate split for the fifth movie since if we're doing it my way instead of joel's we get a fifth movie lol.
I agree with removing Bane and Batgirl. Bane was pointless and butchers the character. Batgirl didn't add anything to the plot and this really should have been the film to let Robin grow especially with the partnership in peril plotline. Though one thing to consider; if you're saving Batgirl for the next film, would it not be better to do the same with Ivy? That way we could still get the heroine vs villainess fight. I'm thinking maybe I'd have dropped Ivy and added the scarecrow. Imagine the winterish nightmare they could create? Or perhaps use the mad hatter as his mind control could cause some of the effects that Ivy's love dust did. For instance he could use Gordon to hijack the bat signal and lure a trap. You could even take it a step further and have them kidnap Gordon. Introduce barbara gordon, maybe even have her act heroic out of costume the way Dick did in the previous film.
QuoteSilver, you're a damn genius. That's the perfect fix for Bane.
Cheers, mate. I'm glad we're on the same wavelength with these ideas.
QuoteOne little change I'd make is altering Barbara Wilson's name to Betty Kane.
This would make a massive difference in terms of comic accuracy. If you view the Silverstone character as a variation on Barbara Gordon, it brings up all kind of questions:
• Why doesn't she look like Babs (different hair colour, costume, etc)?
• Why's she related to Alfred and not Gordon?
• Why are her background and origin story different?
• Why's her personality different?
• Why isn't she a librarian or politician?
The only elements of the Barbara Gordon character taken from the comics were:
• The name Barbara
• The cowl and motorcycle she uses in one scene
And that's it. However she displays a lot in common with Betty Kane:
• Similar appearance and costume (blonde hair, domino mask instead of cowl)
• Similar background (niece of one of Batman's allies)
• Similar origin (shows up on doorstep uninvited, discovers her aunt/uncle is a crime fighter, debuts in her own costume just in time to save Batman and Robin, etc)
• Flirty relationship with Robin
The only discrepancies between the movie Batgirl and Betty Kane are:
• The absence of Kathy Kane
• Her being related to Alfred
But those things don't matter too much. They could have explained that Alfred's sister married a man called Kane, and that her daughter's name was Betty. And bingo – you've got Betty Kane. It's really simple. A lot of people forget that Betty was the first Batgirl, just like Dick was the first Robin. She was also a product of the Silver Age, which was clearly the era Schumacher was drawing most heavily upon with this movie. Yes, Barbara debuted during the Silver Age too, but she's best known for her Bronze and Modern Age appearances.
One other thing I'd change about Barbara/Betty would be to not have her fight. I could buy into the idea of Dick being a competent fighter because he was angry, motivated and had trained his whole life as an athlete. But what was Barbara's motivation? I'm supposed to believe that this English/Californian public schoolgirl (whose accent sounds remarkably like that of a valley girl) can hold her own in a fight against Ivy or Bane? And that despite having earlier identified her fighting style as Judo - a grappling system - she predominantly uses kicks during her battle against Ivy?
Instead of fighting, I'd have it so that she uses gadgets and weapons to help Batman and Robin, similar to Carrie Kelley in The Dark Knight Returns. She'd try to help Robin during the final fight in the scenario I outlined earlier, but the two of them would both end up getting pwned by Bane.
In terms of fixing her motivations, I'd have it so she's an excellent computer hacker (which would have foreshadowed her role as Oracle if they'd used the Barabara Gordon Batgirl) and is able to access the Batcomputer herself. There'd be no Max Headroom Alfred in my version. Instead she'd hack the disc her uncle gives her, then use the information on that disk to access the Batcave. Once inside she hacks into the Batcomputer and starts reviewing the latest case files. There she discovers the connection between Mr. Freeze and MacGregor's Syndrome. Realising she can save her uncle's life by helping capture Freeze, she makes her own costume out of her biker leathers and adds the finishing touch by stealing the mask, cape and utility belt from Robin's old Batman Forever outfit. Surely this would've been more believable than Alf Headroom making the costume for her? I'd also depict her as less jokey and more focused during the finale, thereby conveying her determination to save Alfred.
If we implemented these changes then I reckon we'd have Bane and Batgirl sorted. Now what about Julie Madison? She's so boring and underdeveloped in the movie. But then she was pretty boring in the comics too. I know the logical thing to do would be to cut her from the film, but I think this discussion is more interesting if we just "fix" the pieces that are already in place instead of outright removing them. And Julie does serve a function in the narrative, being a "normal" woman against whom to contrast Ivy. But how could she have been used more effectively in the plot?
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 10 Aug 2013, 16:35One other thing I'd change about Barbara/Betty would be to not have her fight. I could buy into the idea of Dick being a competent fighter because he was angry, motivated and had trained his whole life as an athlete. But what was Barbara's motivation? I'm supposed to believe that this English/Californian public schoolgirl (whose accent sounds remarkably like that of a valley girl) can hold her own in a fight against Ivy or Bane? And that despite having earlier identified her fighting style as Judo - a grappling system - she predominantly uses kicks during her battle against Ivy?
Ivy was originally a lab worker. And Batgirl barely kept up with her. She
didn't keep up with Bane and mostly depended on Robin during the fight. I don't have a major problem with this aspect.
QuoteIvy was originally a lab worker.
A lab worker who was mutated by the same Venom that created Bane. She was also armed with a knife and a whip.
QuoteAnd Batgirl barely kept up with her.
Batgirl kicked Ivy's botanical butt. That was her. She did it all by herself. Watch from the 2:30 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7TwMZxApEg
QuoteShe didn't keep up with Bane and mostly depended on Robin during the fight.
Robin doesn't do anything to defend her during that scene. And if you watch carefully you'll see it's actually Batgirl who kicks the tube from the back of Bane's mask, not Robin. If most teenage girls were grabbed around the throat by a mutant bodybuilder and lifted up against a wall, how many of them would have the clarity of mind and coordination of limb to precisely kick the weak spot on the back of their attacker's head? Especially if this was the first time they'd ever encountered such a mutant bodybuilder, and if they'd had no relevant training beforehand besides a few Judo classes.
QuoteI don't have a major problem with this aspect.
For me, Batgirl's whole initiation towards the end of the movie feels too rushed and unbelievable. A teenage girl who's taken a few Judo classes can suddenly smash through skylights, cartwheel and throw kicks like a veteran Power Ranger. All while sporting a constrictive armoured costume she's never worn before. And she can also deploy grapple lines and handle a laser gun with the same proficiency as Batman and Robin, despite never having undergone their specialist training. This just strikes me as too implausible, even by Schumacher's standards.
Quote from: riddler on Sat, 10 Aug 2013, 07:32
Quote from: Catwoman on Sat, 10 Aug 2013, 07:03
i would take bane and batgirl out completely, first. bane was so pointless and it made things too crowded (sorry silver, not a fan of your idea either) and its called "batman and robin." we don't need to make things even further too crowded by throwing in batgirl.
for the villains i'd make freeze more like the cartoon version that was so tragic and sympathetic and have ivy exploit that behind his back because all she needs him for is for him to freeze everything and everyone, then she can thaw it (killing him horribly in the process as he would have discarded his suit, not that she cares about any human life at this point) and start things over with her as a literal mother nature. in the end, she tells him she killed nora (instead of relying on batsy to deliver the message hismelf) and he nearly kills her by freezing her up to her neck. batman stops him by telling him nora is alive and if he kills ivy there's no way they will let him continue his research in prison, so he thaws her and punches her out, um, cold (i'm cutting most of the puns but that one just fit) and they are both sent to arkham. ivy is put in this awful concrete cell and never given any contact with her beloved plants while freeze is put in his cold cell and with private funding from bruce wayne is allowed to keep working on his research to find a cure for nora who will be kept on ice (sorry) until he is released or finds a cure, whichever comes first.
i would have batman and robin working as partners throughout the movie and save their contention and ultimate split for the fifth movie since if we're doing it my way instead of joel's we get a fifth movie lol.
I agree with removing Bane and Batgirl. Bane was pointless and butchers the character. Batgirl didn't add anything to the plot and this really should have been the film to let Robin grow especially with the partnership in peril plotline. Though one thing to consider; if you're saving Batgirl for the next film, would it not be better to do the same with Ivy? That way we could still get the heroine vs villainess fight. I'm thinking maybe I'd have dropped Ivy and added the scarecrow. Imagine the winterish nightmare they could create? Or perhaps use the mad hatter as his mind control could cause some of the effects that Ivy's love dust did. For instance he could use Gordon to hijack the bat signal and lure a trap. You could even take it a step further and have them kidnap Gordon. Introduce barbara gordon, maybe even have her act heroic out of costume the way Dick did in the previous film.
i might introduce barbara and hint that she is the replacement alongside batman when he and robin (nightwing) split in the fifth. as long as i kept nipples off the batsuits and sh*t hopefully i could have a shot at a sixth
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 10 Aug 2013, 18:48
Batgirl kicked Ivy's botanical butt. That was her. She did it all by herself.
:P ;D Silver, you win the internet today. Well played, sir!
And it's funny that the finale of
Batman Forever almost does the same thing with Robin... no hardcore training and he's supposed to go out into a pitched battle with Batman? It would be as rediculous as Batgirl... if Robin didn't get captured almost immediately. Seriously, that's arguably laughable about Robin in BF, but it's great because it's true. He doesn't have enough training to blast into battle with people like The Riddler and Two-Face, so he'd totally get captured, or killed. It's another aspect about Robin's portrayal in the film that grounds it in reality.
Quotefor the villains i'd make freeze more like the cartoon version that was so tragic and sympathetic and have ivy exploit that behind his back because all she needs him for is for him to freeze everything and everyone, then she can thaw it (killing him horribly in the process as he would have discarded his suit, not that she cares about any human life at this point) and start things over with her as a literal mother nature.
I had a similar idea concerning the "relationship" between the two as their M.O.'s don't really mesh. The only place we differ is I'd stay closer to the ending except, I'd have a fire break out in the turkish bath and Ivy would perish trying to save her plants, Nora would stay dead (no last minute Batman saving her), and Freeze's dying act would be to give Batman the stage one antidote as a way of "restoring" the man Nora once loved.
As for Bane I would keep him as sort of thug throughout, until we get to the end and it is revealed that he was manipulating BOTH Ivy and Freeze the entire time in order to get to Batman (at the behest of the never named mystery bidder). The final fight would not be Bats and Freeze, but Bats and Bane.
Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Sun, 11 Aug 2013, 05:54
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 10 Aug 2013, 18:48
Batgirl kicked Ivy's botanical butt. That was her. She did it all by herself.
:P ;D Silver, you win the internet today. Well played, sir!
Nah, you win for getting the reference.
Though since we've both watched the film enough times to recognise that line, then in a way we both lose... :(
Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Sun, 11 Aug 2013, 05:54It would be as rediculous as Batgirl... if Robin didn't get captured almost immediately. Seriously, that's arguably laughable about Robin in BF, but it's great because it's true. He doesn't have enough training to blast into battle with people like The Riddler and Two-Face, so he'd totally get captured, or killed. It's another aspect about Robin's portrayal in the film that grounds it in reality.
Yeah, they conveyed his inexperience quite well in that sequence. Another thing to point out is that Robin would have been killed by those frogmen if Batman hadn't saved him.
So I have a pretty wild idea. First of all, I think everyone before poses excellent ideas; mainly just adapting it to fit the theme set by Burton, and remain more faithful to the sources it appropriates (the comics, the show). So my idea; what if Batman & Robin was a dark comedy?
Let's be honest, it would be easier to adapt it into a comedy, as opposed to going further across the spectrum to being serious. The "comedy sequel" to a serious movie has been done successfully before. I can only think of horror instances, but there's The Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2 and especially Evil Dead II to look at. Such films are somewhat parodies, as they playfully poke fun at the previous; with Batman, there's a lot to look at. They also accentuate the comedy of the originals; Keaton, the villains, and even Alfred gave us some humor in the series.
I'd say take out the instances of drama; the Nora backstory just doesn't work in the sense of any comedy (as the original proved). Also take out the Alfred dying subplot. I actually liked that in the original, but wouldn't fit the proposed project. Finally, take on more of the 60s show. To me, that subject matter put up against the dark world creates a real dissonance. "What if the campy Batman were to exist in a real and disturbed world?" Keep Freeze with his original motivations on the comics just to show how ridiculous it would be.
Most of the cast would be fine to keep. Except George Clooney. I'd probably see Michael Keaton most likely in such a role, acting as people thought he would in the 1989 movie. Seeing him overacting could be a real spectacle.
This might be just as terrible as it sounds, but with these things, you really never know until you see it in action.
This is a tough one.
Normally I'd prefer to have one main villain instead of two, but the whole idea of using Poison Ivy against Robin makes sense because she disrupts the team dynamic between him and Batman. So I'd keep her in the movie, but maybe it would've been better if she was more like BTAS eco-terrorist Ivy.
I'd obviously remove the nipple costumes, body close up shots, the crappy attempts at comedy, the dumb Schwarzenegger one liners, and I'd get rid of Bane. I'd probably just have a gigantic generic henchman i.e. the big Joker goon at the cathedral, who doesn't come across as a cartoonish parody.
As much as some people are bothered by Barbara/Batgirl being Alfred's niece instead of Gordon's daughter, it does make sense why they opted that from a narrative point of view because she helps bring Batman and Robin together. So I'd keep her the way she is, but write her a bit better in terms of personality and computer hacking aptitude.
I guess I'd cut Elle MacPherson since she's unnecessary to the plot. And Gossip Gerty should go too, she's too much of a 1950s tabloid reporter parody. She doesn't even fit in Burton's movies.
I'd also kill off Alfred....just kidding. ;)
To tell you all the truth, I seriously wonder if these Schumacher movies would have the negative reputation like they have today if they didn't have the overacting, bad costumes, neon lighting and bad comedy. Underneath all of the problems these movies had, they had potential to be good movies. The material including Batman putting an end to his blood-thirsty desire for vengeance while sparing Robin the same path, and the two needing to overcome each other's differences for Gotham and Alfred's sake are great ideas. Batman & Robin could have been a very good light-hearted movie under the right hands. Too bad that potential was ruined thanks to incredibly bad aesthetic choices.
I think the biggest change I would make would be have Ivy not being attracted to Mr. Freeze, at least to the point of helping him try to freeze the world, mostly just like Freeze for that he could fight and get rid of Batman and Robin. Although I could still see her disliking Nora.
Not sure how to make work having Bane as a supporting character rather than the mastermind. A big but simple change would be he escapes from the laboratory on his own, then mostly monitors Ivy and Freeze fight Batman and try to figure out Batman's identity, then offers his help to the villains, with strings attached, near the end.
Batgirl had moments and could have worked ... she could have been more of an impetus to why Robin realized that he was being too reckless too and should be more trusting of Bruce, she also could have dealt more with if she really thought bike racing was a good idea and whether and why being a hero was better.
Having Chase return, especially as the love interest considers marriage, would make more sense.
If it were me, I would have first given Batman his own vocal quality and personality. That alone would have made an enormous difference. I would have removed Batgirl and Poison Ivy and redesigned and rewritten Bane to be intelligent and dueling against Freeze for control of the city while both trying to eliminate the Dynamic Duo. Instead of Alfred getting sick, I would have had Bane hurt Batman badly. Not with a broken back, but enough that Robin had to evolve into the primary hero through part of the film. Possibly even adopting the Nightwing name once Batman goes down. Batman uses his detective abilities to weave a plan to defeat both villains and returns for the finale to stand with Robin (Nightwing).
Quote from: Wayne49 on Thu, 14 Sep 2017, 17:20
If it were me, I would have first given Batman his own vocal quality and personality. That alone would have made an enormous difference. I would have removed Batgirl and Poison Ivy and redesigned and rewritten Bane to be intelligent and dueling against Freeze for control of the city while both trying to eliminate the Dynamic Duo. Instead of Alfred getting sick, I would have had Bane hurt Batman badly. Not with a broken back, but enough that Robin had to evolve into the primary hero through part of the film. Possibly even adopting the Nightwing name once Batman goes down. Batman uses his detective abilities to weave a plan to defeat both villains and returns for the finale to stand with Robin (Nightwing).
I quite like your idea how Dick Grayson could've adopted the Nightwing persona. It might've made a more meaningful arc where Grayson makes that step towards independence, as opposed to changing identities on a weekly basis as Batman implied at the start of B&R.