Batman-Online.com

I've been meaning to write a comic-to-screen analysis of this film for years, so here it is at last. I'm going to cover both the theatrical cut and the Director's Cut simultaneously.

Director Mark Steven Johnson is a comic enthusiast and a long-time reader of Daredevil. Commenting on his familiarity with the source material during a 2002 interview, he said:

Quote"I started with Stan Lee, of course, then got hooked on Frank Miller in High School. I was a rabid fan and collector but, like many others, fell out of Daredevil in the 90's. Kevin Smith brought DD back in a huge way and is single-handedly responsible for my passion of comics returning. I've grown to really love both Bendis and Mack's storylines. I thought Mack's "Parts of a Hole" was just terrific."

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/daredevil-interviews/Johnson

It's fitting that he singles out David Mack's Daredevil: Parts of a Hole (Daredevil Vol 2 #9-15, December 1999-April 2001), as this appears to have been a major influence on the movie's Elektra storyline. The influence of the other early Marvel Knights comics, as well as Frank Miler's classic run, are also clearly evident in the finished film.

---

The opening shot of the movie is a direct recreation of Joe Quesada's cover art for Daredevil Vol 2 #3 (January 1999), depicting Daredevil clinging to a cross atop a church roof.


Many character names in the movie are taken from writers and artists who worked on the Daredevil comics over the years. The first example of this is the priest named Father Everett. This is a reference to Daredevil's co-creator Bill Everett.

Matt Murdock's origin story is largely faithful to the comics, and specifically to Frank Miller and John Romita Jr's Daredevil: The Man Without Fear (1993-1994) miniseries. As in the comics, Matt is raised by his father in the Hell's Kitchen area of New York City. Matt's dad is a boxer named Jack Murdock. In the comics Jack goes by the ring name 'Battlin' Jack', while in the film he's known as Jack 'The Devil' Murdock. In both the comics and the movie, he works on the side – albeit reluctantly – as an enforcer for a local crime boss.


In the movie Jack's robe has devil horns on the hood, suggesting that this is where Matt gets the idea for his cowl. This harkens back to Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale's Daredevil: Yellow (2002), in which Matt was shown creating his original Daredevil costume out of his dad's old robe and boxing gear.


As in the comics, Matt himself is a redheaded Irish Catholic kid who flees from fights at the behest of his father, who encourages him to study and use his brains instead of his fists. In the comics this results in the other local kids dubbing him 'Daredevil'. The following panels are from The Man Without Fear.


The scene where Matt helps his dad to bed after the latter has been drinking was probably inspired by a similar scene in The Man Without Fear.


At one point Jack mentions fighting a boxer named Colan. This is a reference to artist Gene Colan.

The sequence in the movie where Matt loses his sight differs somewhat from the comics. In the comics, Matt pushed a blind man out of the way of an oncoming vehicle. A radioactive substance fell from the back of this vehicle and struck him in the face. In the movie Matt is upset after seeing his father roughing someone up for money, and in his distress he runs in the way of a forklift, which swerves and ruptures a nearby canister of toxic waste. The chemicals hit him in the face and blind him.

The depiction of Matt's accident in the movie reflects the version presented in the Spider-Man: The Animated Series episode 'Framed' (season 3 episode 6, September 1996). In the TV episode the young Matt, upset at seeing his father rough up a store owner for cash, runs in front of a truck which then swerves and spills radioactive chemicals in his eyes.


The depiction of this scene in the animated series includes first person narration from the adult Matt, similar to the narration in the movie. In both stories Matt says, "It was the last thing I ever saw" as he describes the moment where he is blinded. This line originated in Frank Miller's 'Exposé' (Daredevil Vol 1 #164, May 1980). The film adapts several lines of dialogue and plot points from this issue.


The next thing Matt knows, he awakens in hospital with bandages over his eyes. He soon realises his other senses have been heightened to a superhuman level. His father visits him in the hospital and they try to comfort one another.


There is a scene in the film where Matt is shown stopping an old man from stepping in front of a vehicle, perhaps as a reference to the blind man he saved in the comics. The old man in this scene is played by Daredevil co-creator and Marvel legend Stan Lee. Later in the movie, Matt and Foggy discuss a client of theirs named Lee.


Matt quickly adjusts to his new abilities and hones his skills using his father's boxing equipment.


The scenes of the young Matt exploring his sensory powers as he leaps across the rooftops of New York recall the Spider-Man: The Animated Series episode 'Framed'.


In the comics Matt was trained by a blind mentor known as Stick, who was subsequently revealed to be a master of a mysterious ninja clan known as the Chaste. Stick is not referenced in this film, although he does appear in the spinoff movie Elektra (2005) where he is played by Terence Stamp. The scenes in the movie where the young Matt is leaping across the rooftops nevertheless evoke the scenes of him training with Stick in The Man Without Fear.


Jack Murdock's death in the film follows the version depicted in The Man Without Fear miniseries. In the mainstream canon, Jack was killed when Matt was an adult at college. But in The Man Without Fear miniseries, Miller rewrote the story so Jack was killed when Matt was still a boy. In both the film and the comics, Jack is told to throw his latest fight by a corrupt promoter he had signed with. In the comics this promoter was named Roscoe Sweeney (aka, The Fixer) and was the first criminal Daredevil ever fought. In the film Sweeney is replaced by a mobster named Fallon.

In the movie Fallon lists some of the fighters Jack has defeated in rigged bouts: Miller, Mack and Bendis. These are all named after Daredevil comic writers: Frank Miller, David Mack and Brian Michael Bendis. The boxer Jack fights during his fateful bout is named Romita; a reference to John Romita and his son, John Romita Jr., both of whom worked on the Daredevil comics.

Conscious that his son is watching, Jack defies Sweeney/Fallon and wins the fight anyway. He then says, "This one was for you, Matty" which is a line taken from the aforementioned 'Exposé' story by Frank Miller.


Jack is then murdered in an alleyway outside the stadium. In the original story, Jack was simply shot to death. But in The Man Without Fear, the Fixer had him brutally beaten and then shot. In the movie Fallon has him beaten to death.


Unlike the comics, the movie presents Wilson Fisk as the one who actually kills Jack. This is yet another detail taken from the Spider-Man: The Animated Series episode 'Framed', in which Fisk was also portrayed as being responsible for Jack's death.


The notion of Fisk being involved in Jack's death was also explored in a 1997 Daredevil film treatment by J. M. DeMatteis. Several other things from this treatment appear to have influenced Mark Steven Johnson's movie. You can read more about it here on DeMatteis' web site: http://www.jmdematteis.com/2012/04/man-without-fear.html

The image of the young Matt kneeling beside his father's bloodied corpse – consciously evoking the pietà – is taken from the cover of The Man Without Fear Vol 1 #1.


The film then transitions to the present where we see an adult Matt Murdock awakening in a sensory deprivation tank. Matt doesn't generally sleep in one of these in the comics, though he did use one in the Frank Miller story 'The Widow's Bite' (Daredevil Vol 1 #188, November 1982). Miller and Mike W. Barr also showed Matt sleeping in a sensory deprivation tank in 'Matt Murdock, Agent of... S.H.I.E.L.D.' (What If? Vol 1 #28, August 1981).


Matt's home is decorated with works of art and has a secret rooftop entrance, just like his brownstone residence in the comics.

In the movie he is shown organising his money by folding the notes according to their value. Matt was later shown doing this in the comics in Daredevil Vol 3 #22 (January 2013).


Daredevil used to be listed as 6'0, though the most recent editions of The Marvel Encyclopaedia list his height as 5'11. Either way, Ben Affleck is slightly taller than the comic book Matt, standing as he does at around 6'3. The main problem with the height disparity is that it undermines the David and Goliath dynamic between Daredevil and Kingpin. Despite this, Affleck does bear a resemblance to Alex Ross' depictions of the character.


His Daredevil costume is mostly faithful to the source material, except that it's made from leather and he wears his billy club holster on his right leg instead of his left.


The first courtroom scene in the movie sees Matt representing a woman who has been assaulted by a criminal called Jose Quesada. This character is named after comic artist and editor Joe Quesada.

Matt's best friend and law partner is Foggy Nelson, played here by John Favreau. Favreau would later go on to help create the Marvel Cinematic Universe, directing two of the six Phase One movies and paving the way for the 2015-2018 Daredevil Netflix show.


As in the comics, Matt and Foggy's secretary is Karen Page. Karen's role was all but deleted from the theatrical version of the film, but she features more prominently in the Director's Cut.


The first time we see the costumed Daredevil in action (aside from the prologue in the church) is when he tracks Quesada to a bar and attacks him and his allies. The image of Daredevil leaping off the top of the skyscraper reflects the cover of 'Fall From Grace – Prologue: Temptation' (Daredevil Vol 1 #319, August 1993).

The bar Quesada goes to is identified as Josie's Bar, which is the same dive frequented by many of Hell's Kitchen's criminals in the comics. Josie herself makes a brief appearance in the film. She and her establishment debuted in 'In the Hands of Bullseye' (Daredevil Vol 1 #160, September 1979).


Incidentally, it's unclear whether the Josie in the Daredevil comics is intended to be the same Josie who tends bar at Kadie's in Frank Miller's Sin City books. They look practically identical and were both created by Miller, who sprinkled several Daredevil and Elektra references throughout the Sin City books. So it's possible they are meant to be the same character.


The fight in the bar is analogous to Daredevil's very first costumed appearance in the comics, way back in Daredevil Vol 1 #1, where he launched a similar attack on the Fixer and his men. This scene was later retold in Daredevil: Yellow. As in the original comic, the Affleck Daredevil surprises his prey and engages multiple opponents in combat as he pursues one specific target: Fixer/Quesada. The panel below is from Daredevil: Yellow.


The image of Daredevil standing on the burning table as he taunts Quesada recalls a scene from 'No Rest for the Wicked!' (Daredevil Vol 1 #364, May 1997).


Fixer/Quesada flees the joint and seeks refuge in an underground railway station, but Daredevil pursues him.


The subterranean acoustics interfere with Matt's radar sense in the movie. This also happened when he pursued Bullseye into an underground railway station in Frank Miller's 'Devils' (Daredevil Vol 1 #169, March 1981).


The confrontation between Daredevil and Fixer/Quesada takes place on a railway platform in both the comics and the film.


Both confrontations end with the criminal dead. In the comics Fixer died from a heart attack, while in the movie Daredevil intentionally murders Quesada.


Matt does this by knocking him onto the railway track and leaving him to be run over by the train. The Daredevil in the comics would never do this owing to his moral code. The scene in the film may have been inspired by Daredevil's fight against Bullseye in the aforementioned Daredevil Vol 1 #169, which ended with Matt knocking his opponent unconscious on an underground railway line. Daredevil wanted to leave Bullseye to die, but pulled him out of the way of an oncoming train at the last second. Obviously the movie scene ends very differently.


Quesada's death is subsequently investigated by Detective Nick Manolis, another character created by Frank Miller. Manolis first appeared in the comics in '... The Mauler!' (Daredevil Vol 1 #167, November 1980) and was later murdered by one of Kingpin's agents during the events of Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli's Daredevil: Born Again (1986). Also present at the scene of Quesada's death is Ben Urich, who debuted in 'Betrayal' (Daredevil Vol 1 #153, July 1978). As in the comics, Ben is shown to be a chain smoking reporter who gradually figures out the truth behind Daredevil's secret identity. The antagonistic relationship between Manolis and Urich in the movie reflects their strained interactions during the events of Born Again.


The moment where Ben ignites the 'DD' emblem on the ground was almost certainly inspired by a similar scene in Alex Proyas' The Crow (1994). The flaming 'DD' symbol also references an image from David Mack's Parts of a Hole.


When Matt returns home he finds a message waiting for him on his answering machine from a woman named Heather. This is likely a nod to Heather Glenn, Matt's love interest in the comics during the Miller/Janson run. In the film Heather uses the answering machine message to end her relationship with Matt on the basis that he's never there for her. In the comics Heather eventually committed suicide, in part due to Matt's inattentiveness towards her emotional needs, as depicted in Denny O'Neil's story 'Fog' (Daredevil Vol 1 #220, July 1985).

The theatrical cut then shows Matt going to confession. He is shown doing this several times throughout the movie, though all of these scenes were removed from the Director's Cut and replaced with another scene where Matt is shown praying in solitude with a rosary. The following panels are from Kevin Smith's Daredevil: Guardian Devil (1998-1999).


The Director's Cut also contains a number of things that were intended to set up a sequel based on Born Again. One of these is a brief flashback scene in which a nun (Sister Maggie) visits Matt in hospital. As she leans over him, he feels the cross dangling from around her neck. This scene is adapted directly from Born Again.


During their conversation in the coffee shop, Foggy mentions once buying Matt a guide dog that ran away. Foggy also bought Matt a guide dog in the comics named Deuce, who first appeared in 'Unfinished Business' (Daredevil Vol 1 #361, February 1997).

The Director's Cut includes a prominent subplot in which Matt and Foggy agree to defend a small-time criminal accused of murdering a prostitute named Lisa Tazio. Lisa was created for the movie, though she does somewhat resemble a character named Joanie who appeared in the classic Frank Miller story 'Gangwar!' (Daredevil Vol 1 #170-172, May-July 1981). Lisa and Joanie are both prostitutes whose clients include criminals associated with Wilson Fisk, and both women secretly act as informants. Joanie was an informant for Daredevil in the comic, while Lisa is an informant for Ben Urich in the movie.


Matt finds a clue to the identity of Lisa's killer in the form of the word 'MOM'. Later in the film the significance of this clue is made clear when the letters are turned upside down to spell 'WOW', the initials of Wesley Owen Welch. This recalls an almost identical plot point in the Daredevil/Spider-Man Vol 1 miniseries (January-April 2001) where Matt is given a clue to the identity of a criminal in the form of the message '7MO'. Later in the story the letters are inverted to spell 'OWL', thus identifying the criminal in question as Leland Owlsley.


A key witness in the trial is a police detective named Robert McKensie. Roger McKenzie was the writer of the Daredevil comics when Frank Miller first joined the series as an artist in the late seventies.

During the trial, Matt and Foggy's client mentions a friend named Turk. This is a reference to the comic character Turk Barrett, who was also namedropped in the first chapter of Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns (1986).

Another major storyline in the film is Matt's romantic relationship with Elektra Natchios. As in the comics, Elektra is portrayed as the daughter of a Greek diplomat and an expert in martial arts. In the comics she first met Matt at college, as originally depicted in 'Elektra' (Daredevil Vol 1 #168, January 1981), while in the movie they initially meet in a coffee shop. The Director's Cut makes it clear that Elektra ducks into the coffee shop in an attempt to evade the overbearing bodyguards her father has assigned to protect her. This reflects her first meeting with Matt in the comics, where the latter's romantic advances were frustrated by the presence of her security detail.


The first time Matt and Elektra fight in the movie is in a children's playground. The first fight between Daredevil and Echo in Parts of a Hole also took place in a playground. The seesaw features in both battles.


Matt uses the seesaw to catapult Elektra through the air. He did the same thing to a Hand ninja in 'Through the Eyes of the Enemy' (Daredevil Vol 1 #295, August 1991).


It's after this scene that we get our first proper look at the Kingpin. In the comics Fisk is meant to be 6'7 and 450 lbs. Actor Michael Clarke Duncan was 6'5 and weighed around 340 lbs at the time of filming, so he was about as close as any actor could reasonably get to the comic book character's immense proportions. He shares the comic book Fisk's powerful physical presence and fondness for cigars. When we first get a clear look at him he is staring out of the window of his office, as he often does in the comics. The following panel is from Born Again.


Like his literary counterpart, the cinematic Fisk is shown to spontaneously beat to death anyone who crosses him and to murder the relatives of those he has eliminated. The Director's Cut includes a scene where we see him savagely kill two of his own henchmen after he suspects them of disloyalty.

The Kingpin's right-hand man and confidante throughout the movie is an assistant named Wesley. Wesley first appeared during the Born Again storyline, during which his full name was never revealed. In the movie his full name is Wesley Owen Welch, whereas more recent comics have given his name as James Wesley – the same as in the Netflix TV show. However he was referred to as Wesley Owen Welch in Kingpin: Born Against (2017). Since then comic writers have alternated between the two names, with preference being given to James Wesley. However it's clearly meant to be the same character, regardless of his full name.


Kingpin instructs Wesley to solicit the services of an assassin named Bullseye, a villain that first appeared in 'Watch Out For Bullseye – He Never Misses!' (Daredevil Vol 1 #131, March 1976). Unlike his cinematic counterpart, the comic book Bullseye is not Irish and wears a costume similar to Daredevil's. The movie version sports a new costume with a shaved head and a target carved into his forehead. While this look was created for the film, it has also been used in the comics beginning with the first (and to date only) issue of Kevin Smith's unfinished miniseries Daredevil/Bullseye: The Target (November 2002). So technically this costume debuted in the comics first, even though it was really created for the movie.


Writer Frank Miller makes a cameo as one of Bullseye's victims. He is briefly seen lying on the ground with a pen sticking out of his head. Bullseye's use of pens to kill his targets is a tradition that dates back to his debut story in Daredevil Vol 1 #131.


Bullseye assassinates Elektra's father by hurling Daredevil's billy club into his chest. This is the same method he used to murder Karen Page in Guardian Devil.


Matt tries unsuccessfully to save Elektra's father in both the movie and the original comic. Elektra is present to witness his death in both stories.


Kingpin is delighted with Bullseye's performance and hires him to kill Daredevil and Elektra. In the comics Bullseye decided to kill Elektra on his own initiative in the hopes doing so would impress Fisk, as depicted in Frank Miller's 'Last Hand' (Daredevil Vol 1 #181, April 1982). The movie borrows heavily from this issue, as I'll later illustrate.

The image of Bullseye sitting with his feet on Kingpin's desk is taken from 'Gang War!' which was the first story in which these two villains met face to face.


Matt attends the funeral of Elektra's father, as he did in Daredevil Vol 1 #168.


Her father's death changes Elektra and this drives a wedge between her and Matt. He begs her not to leave in both the comic and the movie, but to no avail.


Following the funeral in the Director's Cut, Urich informs Matt of some financial irregularities that suggest the police officer McKensie is on the Kingpin's payroll. Matt is confused, since he'd listened to McKensie's heartbeat when he'd testified in court and had determined the cop was speaking truthfully. Matt confronts McKensie and attempts to intimidate him, only to discover that he has a pacemaker which prevents his heartbeat from fluctuating when he lies. This plot point is adapted from Frank Miller's 'Good Guys Wear Red!' (Daredevil Vol 1 #184, July 1982), which was the first Daredevil/Punisher crossover in the comics. In this story Matt believes in the innocence of his client, Hogman, due to his unwavering heartbeat. But following his acquittal, Hogman admits to Matt that he is actually guilty. Daredevil then hunts down his former client and tries to intimidate him, at which point Hogman reveals he has a pacemaker.


Comic writer Kevin Smith cameos as a morgue attendant named after comic artist Jack Kirby. Matt takes Echo to see Smith's movie Mallrats (2000) in Parts of a Hole, and Smith himself had of course previously written the comic story Guardian Devil. His movie Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (2001) includes a scene where the protagonists are chased across a studio lot where a Daredevil movie is being filmed. Ben Affleck also appears in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.


Elektra's costume in the film, consisting of leather trousers and a tank top, more closely resembles Echo's costume (below left) than the comic book Elektra's traditional attire. It does however resemble Elektra's costume in the Ultimate Daredevil and Elektra Vol 1 comics (below centre) that launched in January 2003.


In the movie Elektra is deceived into thinking Daredevil killed her father, prompting her to hunt him down and seek revenge. The exact same thing happened in Parts of a Hole where Fisk tricked Echo into thinking Daredevil was the one who murdered her father. Like Elektra in the movie, Echo trained herself up to face Daredevil and went after him in search of vengeance. In both stories, Fisk is the one truly responsible for the father's death.

While training, Elektra hurls her sai into a target representing Daredevil. Echo does the same thing with a pen while training in Parts of a Hole.


The sai is of course Elektra's signature weapon, and she uses these during her rooftop fight against Daredevil.


Elektra eventually relents after she wounds Daredevil and realises it's Matt beneath the mask. The same thing happened in Parts of a Hole when Echo wounded Daredevil and discovered his true identity.


Elektra then proceeds to fight Bullseye. This scene is adapted from their fateful battle in 'Last Hand'. Bullseye's line "You're good, baby. I'll give you that. But me... I'm magic," is taken almost verbatim from this comic. In both stories Bullseye says this as he produces an Ace of spades.


He then throws the playing card at Elektra's throat.


Bullseye grabs hold of Elektra and says, "And now for my next trick" as he brandishes a sai. This line is also taken from 'Last Hand'.


Finally he impales her through the chest with her own sai.


Elektra dies in Matt's arms.


Following Elektra's death, Daredevil retreats to Father Everett's church where Bullseye initiates their showdown. This sequence is inspired by Daredevil and Bullseye's fight inside a church in Guardian Devil. The movie scene begins with Bullseye allowing Father Everett to leave. In Guardian Devil Bullseye massacred almost all of the nuns in the church, with Sister Maggie being the only survivor. So there's no way in hell the comic book Bullseye would have spared Father Everett.


At one point during the fight Daredevil and Bullseye grab each other by the throat. This might have been inspired by a similar moment at the end of 'Gangwar!'


Another element adapted from 'Gang War!' is the moment where Bullseye hurls his throwing stars at Daredevil and Matt deflects them using his billy club.


Bullseye reveals that he told Kingpin he'd kill Daredevil for free. Bullseye also offered to kill Daredevil for free when he spoke with Kingpin in 'Gangwar!'

The fight ends with Daredevil throwing Bullseye through a stained-glass window. This recalls their climactic showdown at the end of Frank Miller's Elektra Lives Again (1990), where Bullseye almost killed Matt by knocking him through a church window.


Bullseye survives his fall to street level, but is now paralysed. Daredevil also paralysed Bullseye in the comics after he killed Elektra, as depicted in 'Last Hand'.


The moment where Kingpin turns around and sees Daredevil standing in the doorway brandishing a club recalls a scene from Born Again. In both stories this moment precedes a fight between the two enemies. Kingpin wins in the comic, while Daredevil wins in the movie.


The fight scene in the film also echoes Daredevil and Kingpin's very first battle in 'Gangwar!'. In both stories Daredevil unleashes a flurry of attacks against Fisk, only for his opponent to beat him into submission with consummate ease. The fight scene in the movie also evokes the aforementioned scene from Born Again insofar as both battles take place in the Fisk Tower.


Matt charges Fisk with killing the only two people he ever loved. He demands to know why, to which Fisk replies, "Business. That's all it ever is, is Business." This mirrors a similar line Fisk spoke to Echo/Maya Lopez when she asked him why he killed her father in Daredevil Vol 2 #53 (December 2003), which was part of the 'Vision Quest' storyline. Fisk tells Echo that what happened with her father was "business. Just business."

In the movie rain is shown to enhance Matt's radar sense. In the comics rain and water in general have repeatedly been shown to frustrate his super senses. In the movie he ruptures the water pipes in the ceiling of Fisk's office to create a rain effect and this somehow helps him defeat Kingpin. The closest comic I can equate this with is Mark Waid's Daredevil Vol 3 #25 (June 2013), in which Daredevil was beaten to a bloody pulp by Ikari after a sprinkler system reduced the effectiveness of his radar sense by 95%. In this issue Matt directly states that his radar sense is "practically useless in the rain," though most other comics have shown his radar to function during downpours, albeit with reduced efficiency.


The fight ends with Matt breaking both of Fisk's kneecaps. This recalls what the teenage Matt did to Slade, one of the thugs who murdered his father, in The Man Without Fear.


Kingpin discovers Daredevil's true identity but resolves to keep it a secret. This is another plot point that was setting up a Born Again adaptation for the sequel.

The next day Matt is accosted by Ben Urich, who reveals his intent to write an article revealing Daredevil's true identity. Matt begs him not to do this, and Urich eventually relents and buries the story. The same thing happened in the comics in Daredevil Vol 1 #164.

The last time we see Bullseye he is lying in a hospital bed, wrapped in bandages and paralysed. This references his fate at the end of 'Last Hand'.


Bullseye kills a bothersome fly using a syringe. In 'Gangwar!' he kills a bothersome fly using a paperclip.


The movie ends on an upbeat note with Matt finding Elektra's necklace on a rooftop they'd visited earlier in the film, implying that she has somehow returned from the grave. Her death in the comics proved equally short lived.

The final shot of the movie has Daredevil leaping off a rooftop and deploying his grapple line in a direct recreation of Joe Quesada's cover art for Daredevil Vol 2 #1 (November 1998), which marked the beginning of the Guardian Devil arc. Appropriately enough, the very last line of the movie is Matt referring to himself as "a guardian devil".


And I'm pretty sure that covers everything from both the theatrical version and Director's Cut of Daredevil 2003. But if I've missed anything, go ahead and add it to the list.

DDTMWOF #01, pg. 01- young Matt sits on his fire escape. I don't have screen shots but this page gets homaged in the director's cut right after the scene where Jack tells Matt that he can do anything if he's not afraid, about 07:00 or 08:00.

DDTMWOF #02, pg. 22- Splitting hairs? But I always thought this sequence was the inspiration for movie young Matt's jumping around rooftops. Poe-tay-toe, poe-tah-toe, the inspiration is clearly DDTMWOF but thought I'd mention it anyway.

I overlooked that nod to the first page of TMWF. The positioning of the moon in the background is similar enough to suggest a deliberate reference. Good catch.


I'm starting to think the Director's Cut of this film might be the most underrated CBM of the noughties. The theatrical cut is weak, but the DC is at least on a par with or better than most of the X-Men films from that decade, and I'd rank it over Catwoman, Superman Returns or any of the Fantastic Four movies too.

One thing that would enhance the Director's Cut further would be to ditch the cheesy voice over narration. I know Raimi's Spider-Man films had VO narration too, but it was far less intrusive there than in DD. I suppose Mark Steven Johnson was trying to echo the third-person narration in TMWF, but at times it comes off as telling rather than showing.

The VO begins when Matt is lying in the church and talking about his life flashing before his eyes, implying that he's narrating his story as he teeters on the threshold between life and death. However once the flashbacks catch up to that point in the story, the VO awkwardly continues for the remainder of the film. It should have ended at the point where Bullseye arrived at the church. Or better yet, they should have removed it altogether.

I can't thank you enough for these immersive posts you make. It just makes me more pissed off that Affleck had to gall to call being in this film "embarrassing," despite all of this obvious hard work put in to make this movie as close to a Frank Miller comic they could. I'm still waiting for him to retract on that statement.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 15 Jun  2020, 13:54I'm starting to think the Director's Cut of this film might be the most underrated CBM of the noughties. The theatrical cut is weak, but the DC is at least on a par with or better than most of the X-Men films from that decade, and I'd rank it over Catwoman, Superman Returns or any of the Fantastic Four movies too.

I broadly agree with that. I'll say X2 is better than Daredevil. But the rest of the movies you mention? No question, the DC is miles ahead of them.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 15 Jun  2020, 13:54The VO begins when Matt is lying in the church and talking about his life flashing before his eyes, implying that he's narrating his story as he teeters on the threshold between life and death. However once the flashbacks catch up to that point in the story, the VO awkwardly continues for the remainder of the film. It should have ended at the point where Bullseye arrived at the church. Or better yet, they should have removed it altogether.

Less is more with VO, I think. VO at the beginning, a bit around Jack's comeback, a bit around his death and then a bit just before credits roll ("A guardian devil", and all that) is probably the best balance. But Daredevil has a kind of big cast when you think about it and a lot of the VO could've been spoken out loud to other characters. VO works better for more solitary characters. Maybe Daredevil has too many characters to support VO?

Quote from: Kamdan on Mon, 15 Jun  2020, 14:12
I can't thank you enough for these immersive posts you make. It just makes me more pissed off that Affleck had to gall to call being in this film "embarrassing," despite all of this obvious hard work put in to make this movie as close to a Frank Miller comic they could. I'm still waiting for him to retract on that statement.

Time was Affleck Derangement Syndrome was very real. And when a public figure goes through that, I think it's damaging to them. I'm convinced the harassment is why Lucas ultimately sold out to Disney. Who needs the grief?

If Affleck is ever honest about it (which doesn't seem likely to ever be in public), I think he might say that he considers the Daredevil era almost the low point of his whole life. He could literally do no right at that time and all the success he had early on had evaporated. I wouldn't be surprised if the misery and ridicule he went through for playing Daredevil wasn't a major part of why he said that bit about how the film is "embarrassing" and whatnot.

Maybe I'm wrong, idk. But I think the way he was treated by the public for a few years did a number on him.

QuoteTime was Affleck Derangement Syndrome was very real. And when a public figure goes through that, I think it's damaging to them.

QuoteIf Affleck is ever honest about it (which doesn't seem likely to ever be in public), I think he might say that he considers the Daredevil era almost the low point of his whole life. He could literally do no right at that time and all the success he had early on had evaporated. I wouldn't be surprised if the misery and ridicule he went through for playing Daredevil wasn't a major part of why he said that bit about how the film is "embarrassing" and whatnot.

The man doesn't know how to count his blessings. He's lived a life others greatly envy with his hook-ups with Gwyneth Paltrow, JLo and he blew off a marriage to a woman like Jennifer Gardner, someone way too nice to be with the likes of him. He obviously doesn't care anymore now that's he hooking up with Ana de Armas now.

I'd get your plight if you had to be in a ridiculous costume for the 80's Superboy TV show, but there was quality to be had with this Daredevil. It really paints a spoiled and unappreciated portrait of Affleck who I said even back when he was first cast that he was undeserving of wearing the cape and cowl because of these statements.

A couple of years ago, he mentioned that he still "hated Daredevil so much," and I'm still failing to see what made it so miserable for him. Was he upset that the movie went from R-rated to PG-13? He had enough star power to get a good paycheck and it gave him a decent paycheck and allowed him a chance to get to know his future ex-wife. Many people would be satisfied for a lifetime if they just had one of those things, but now he's really eating crow for his past misdeeds. He can blame alcohol all he wants but nobody forced it down his privileged throat.

Quote from: Kamdan on Wed, 17 Jun  2020, 01:31

QuoteTime was Affleck Derangement Syndrome was very real. And when a public figure goes through that, I think it's damaging to them.

QuoteIf Affleck is ever honest about it (which doesn't seem likely to ever be in public), I think he might say that he considers the Daredevil era almost the low point of his whole life. He could literally do no right at that time and all the success he had early on had evaporated. I wouldn't be surprised if the misery and ridicule he went through for playing Daredevil wasn't a major part of why he said that bit about how the film is "embarrassing" and whatnot.

The man doesn't know how to count his blessings. He's lived a life others greatly envy with his hook-ups with Gwyneth Paltrow, JLo and he blew off a marriage to a woman like Jennifer Gardner, someone way too nice to be with the likes of him. He obviously doesn't care anymore now that's he hooking up with Ana de Armas now.

I'd get your plight if you had to be in a ridiculous costume for the 80's Superboy TV show, but there was quality to be had with this Daredevil. It really paints a spoiled and unappreciated portrait of Affleck who I said even back when he was first cast that he was undeserving of wearing the cape and cowl because of these statements.

A couple of years ago, he mentioned that he still "hated Daredevil so much," and I'm still failing to see what made it so miserable for him. Was he upset that the movie went from R-rated to PG-13? He had enough star power to get a good paycheck and it gave him a decent paycheck and allowed him a chance to get to know his future ex-wife. Many people would be satisfied for a lifetime if they just had one of those things, but now he's really eating crow for his past misdeeds. He can blame alcohol all he wants but nobody forced it down his privileged throat.

Originally, I was just going to let your post ride. I said my piece and that was that.

But then I got to the end. And now, I think I need to emphasize something that a lot of people don't realize.

Actors want to perform as characters. That much should be obvious. What's less obvious is that the great majority of actors didn't go to Hollywood to wear capes and use kung-fu. They want to act, they want to portray complex characters and they want to be in films that will challenge them. Of the vast majority of actors who went to Hollywood for those reasons, the vast majority of that vast majority don't actually consider comic book characters to be REAL characters.

They will usually say that comic book characters are rich, layered characters when they're in public because their publicist has already trained them. But deep down inside, playing the part of the actor who actually cares about the superhero he's portraying is just one more role they're playing. But it won't officially appear on their resumé.

Affleck had a brief moment of honesty. And in that moment, he validated the conversation Kevin Smith claimed to have with him ("I'll make my big nut on Daredevil and then come do Jersey Girl for chump change") while also revealing that he was never really too invested in Daredevil.

His role as Chuckie in Good Will Hunting is far smaller than his role in Daredevil. But I would bet you a million dollars that he gets more creative satisfaction from watching just one Chuckie moment from GWH than the entirety of Daredevil. I would also bet that he gets even greater satisfaction from watching just five minutes of The Town than the entirety of etc.

He didn't go to Hollywood to play Daredevil. He went there to play Chuckie, direct The Town and do the other "more personal" items on his resumé. Stuff like Daredevil or Armageddon is what he has to do pay the bills between projects that he's probably more emotionally invested in such as The Company Men.

Watching the movie Hollywoodland, I've often wondered how much of himself Affleck actually poured into that role or at least poured into certain scenes. Did the mask slip? Does he relate to George Reeves on a borderline inappropriate visceral level? "You liked me where I was, in a ****ing red suit! Well, that's not who I am!" I have no idea if "red suit" was what was in the script or if that was a Freudian moment for Affleck that wound up in the movie. Either way, it's kind of perfect.

In the end, all we can do is judge their performances. His personal attitudes aside, did Affleck believably portray Daredevil, George Reeves, Chuckie, Batman, Holden McNeil and his other characters? In all cases, I have to say yes. That's the most any of us can really ask for.

Ben's passion for his work seems to be easily swayed by popular consensus. If the reception of DD had been more positive, perhaps he wouldn't feel so bad about it now. Back in the day he claimed to be a fan of the Daredevil comics, wrote the introduction to the trade paperback edition of Guardian Devil, and agreed to reprise his role as Matt Murdock for a cameo in the 2005 Elektra movie (though I gather he only did that as a favour to his wife).


All that enthusiasm vanished when his career took a dive in the mid-noughties, just like his enthusiasm for the DCEU seems to be vanishing now. Or maybe he was never truly invested in either project to begin with. In which case, why did he jeopardise his post-Hollywoodland comeback by taking on the Batman role? Did he only do it so Warner Bros would green light his other projects? I'd like to think some of his enthusiasm was genuine, but you never can tell with actors. If Ben's resentment towards Daredevil is informed by the problems he was having in his personal life, then I can only imagine how he must feel about the DCEU. I reckon he's had a much rougher time in the past four or five years than he did back in the noughties. But hopefully he'll bounce back.

At any rate, it's a pity he regards his superhero roles so negatively, considering there are many fans who still enjoy them.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 17 Jun  2020, 03:18"You liked me where I was, in a ****ing red suit! Well, that's not who I am!" I have no idea if "red suit" was what was in the script or if that was a Freudian moment for Affleck that wound up in the movie. Either way, it's kind of perfect.

I haven't watched Hollywoodland since it first came out, so I don't remember the red suit line. But you could be on to something there. I recall Jack Larson quoting Reeves as saying something similar in a documentary once, only I think he said "monkey suit" rather than "red suit". So maybe Affleck did alter the line to reflect his own experience.

I really need to re-visit that film.

QuoteBen's passion for his work seems to be easily swayed by popular consensus. If the reception of DD had been more positive, perhaps he wouldn't feel so bad about it now. Back in the day he claimed to be a fan of the Daredevil comics, wrote the introduction to the trade paperback edition of Guardian Devil, and agreed to reprise his role as Matt Murdock for a cameo in the 2005 Elektra movie (though I gather he only did that as a favour to his wife).

All that enthusiasm vanished when his career took a dive in the mid-noughties, just like his enthusiasm for the DCEU seems to be vanishing now. Or maybe he was never truly invested in either project to begin with. In which case, why did he jeopardise his post-Hollywoodland comeback by taking on the Batman role? Did he only do it so Warner Bros would green light his other projects? I'd like to think some of his enthusiasm was genuine, but you never can tell with actors. If Ben's resentment towards Daredevil is informed by the problems he was having in his personal life, then I can only imagine how he must feel about the DCEU. I reckon he's had a much rougher time in the past four or five years than he did back in the noughties. But hopefully he'll bounce back.

At any rate, it's a pity he regards his superhero roles so negatively, considering there are many fans who still enjoy them.

I heartily agree with you. He's always come off more like a frat boy than an actor, which I guess is how he wants to present himself to the public. He visibly gets frustrated when something is not going his way when he thinks it should be and he likes to be on the side of the majority rather than the minority. Gotta at least show some pride for your work.

I think you hit the nail on the head that he sorely took on the role of Batman to get his projects off the ground. They repeatedly told him that taking on this role was going to seriously affect his career and he wasn't thinking about the negative sides of it such as when he was trying to promote his latest directorial effort yet the press only wanted to know about his involvement with Batman.

I feel like in a couple of years, he's really gonna sink further into depression over his life choices that have lead him to where he is now.

Affleck may have had some distaste for his Daredevil experience, but think again if you have any doubts about how he felt playing Batman. He had expressed his fondness for making BvS, went on record to support Snyder's vision of Justice League and expressed his gratitude to the fans for demanding that film's release.

https://youtu.be/ej99nhfsfXo?t=1098

https://youtu.be/3GrxCD0pSAs

Affleck had his own problems, but don't underestimate how toxic WB was at the time when they reshot JL into Josstice League. In fact, he said somebody told him his Batman film script was good, but he'd risk himself drinking to death if he'd go through a Josstice scenario again.

Quote
I heartily agree with you. He's always come off more like a frat boy than an actor, which I guess is how he wants to present himself to the public. 

I disagree, at least as far as acting is concerned. Argo, The Town and Gone Girl alone showed he came a long way. And from what I've heard he was excellent in The Way Back.

Quote
I feel like in a couple of years, he's really gonna sink further into depression over his life choices that have lead him to where he is now.

I don't think so. From what I've seen, he's looks much healthier than he did in the last couple of years.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 17 Jun  2020, 19:35I really need to re-visit that film.

I've seen it twice. Once in theaters and once about seven or so years ago. It holds up on the second viewing. A movie like that was made for love of the game. Everybody involved knew they were making a high quality money-loser. Movies like this are gold.

Quote from: Kamdan on Thu, 18 Jun  2020, 00:59
He visibly gets frustrated when something is not going his way when he thinks it should be and he likes to be on the side of the majority rather than the minority.

From Affleck's POV I'm going to assume he really didn't enjoy the response BvS received. It was pretty rough, mixed in with the prior perception Daredevil was a bomb. The whole "here we go again" vibe. He did JL, but with the reshoots he was then forced to give a performance didn't want to give. I think he didn't want to persist with a chore that ends up getting savaged by the mainstream anyway. The alcohol risk is bandied about, and while I'm sure it's genuine, I don't think that factored in as heavily as people believe.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 18 Jun  2020, 02:09
I've seen it twice. Once in theaters and once about seven or so years ago. It holds up on the second viewing. A movie like that was made for love of the game. Everybody involved knew they were making a high quality money-loser. Movies like this are gold.

Hollywoodland...how could I forget about that film? That was probably the first time I saw Affleck as a true actor. He portrayed the sadness of George Reeves so well.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 18 Jun  2020, 01:38
Affleck may have had some distaste for his Daredevil experience, but think again if you have any doubts about how he felt playing Batman. He had expressed his fondness for making BvS, went on record to support Snyder's vision of Justice League and expressed his gratitude to the fans for demanding that film's release.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I think Affleck enjoyed with working with Snyder. But in the Whedon scenes of JL, he had let himself go a little bit. I'm being polite. I think his affection was for Snyder's vision. When that was destroyed, I think he checked out.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 18 Jun  2020, 03:52

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 18 Jun  2020, 01:38
Affleck may have had some distaste for his Daredevil experience, but think again if you have any doubts about how he felt playing Batman. He had expressed his fondness for making BvS, went on record to support Snyder's vision of Justice League and expressed his gratitude to the fans for demanding that film's release.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I think Affleck enjoyed with working with Snyder. But in the Whedon scenes of JL, he had let himself go a little bit. I'm being polite. I think his affection was for Snyder's vision. When that was destroyed, I think he checked out.

Exactly.

Snyder did say that Affleck had a lot of enthusiasm on the set, and was excited for the original slate of the DCEU. After everything we know now, you can't begrudge him for stepping down.

Besides, Affleck could've kept quiet about the whole social media campaign that occurred last November. But he tweeted the RTSC hashtag and expressed his support instead.

Quote from: Ben Affleck
I didn't know about it. Zack was like, 'Hey, they are doing this thing.' And I said, 'Zack, I love you, and I support you. However I can help you.' I do think that movie, you know, having two directors is a very weird thing. And for Justice League, the director had a family tragedy...and so you have a kind of cow's body with a horse's head a little bit with two directors a lot of times, for better or for worse. I do think Zack's cut should be available.

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2490644/ben-affleck-says-zack-snyders-justice-league-cut-should-be-available

Those are strong indicators that he had some affection of what the DCEU was doing. And Snyder was well, of course.

Thankfully, we will see him as Batman again as he was intended in ZSJL.

A very good video going over the history of Ol' Hornhead in Hollywood.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-944ZFkhb34

A history of Daredevil movie projects that never made it to the screen.

Intro - 00:00
Marvel's Bankruptcy / Licensing - 00:12
Daredevil's 1964 Debut - 03:00
The Man Without Fear - 04:04
Chris Columbus' Daredevil - 05:18
Script Summary - 06:46
J.M Matteis Treatment - 21:20
Daredevil 2003 Movie - 23:35
David Slade's Daredevil - 26:00
Joe Carnahan's Daredevil Trilogy - 28:23
Marvel Daredevil TV Show - 29:56

The Chris Columbus treatment sounds incredibly ambitious. He was trying to adapt most of the same storylines from the comics as Mark Steven Johnson, plus Born Again. Columbus has been instrumental in helping launch several major movie franchises over the years, including Gremlins, Home Alone and Harry Potter, and I'd have been intrigued to see if he could've achieved a similarly successful launch for Daredevil.

The Joe Carnahan pitch has always struck me as promising. I feel like the spirit of his version, with its violent adult tone and gritty throwbacks to seventies crime cinema, effectively carried over into the Netflix show.

Ultimately I don't think any of these feature film projects would have reached the brilliance of the TV show, but some of them certainly had potential.

Yeah, the proposed Chris Columbus film just might have been something great, but the take that Joe Carnahan had really peaked my interest some years back. I still remember that sizzle reel trailer that was released, and the potential was most assuredly there, but unfortunately we'll never know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXT_tB7fHO4

Having a trilogy of Daredevil films that are period pieces spanning from the 1970s era to the 1980's, with music of the day being highlighted upon, really could have elevated each film to something really special. Martin Scorsese has proven this time and time again, with his choice of music and in how he implements it into various scenes. Or just look in how it's used in Richard Linklater's "Dazed and Confused", or Paul Thomas Anderson's "Boogie Nights" (which was outstanding) just to name a few. Can't really say if I would have traded Carnahan's trilogy for the Netflix series (as some director's tend to want to implement an over-the-top directing style ad nauseum when using music), but it's very possible due to in how I personally tend to gravitate and re-watch movies rather than various seasons of a show. Though of course this definitely isn't absolute by any stretch. Just generally speaking of course.

Just for fun.

Wizard Magazine fan casting time capsule 1996:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSWqxInVEAEnFr7?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSWqxvMVcAAv6V1?format=jpg&name=large)

I'm sort of digging Josie Bissett as Karen. And Woody Harrelson as Bullseye is pretty inspired too.

There's a rumour circulating that Affleck has been spotted on the set of Deadpool 3, with some claiming that he's reprising his role as Daredevil. The plot of Deadpool 3 is thought to be similar to No Way Home and The Flash, with Deadpool and Wolverine travelling the multiverse encountering alternate versions of themselves.

https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/06/23/rumor-daredevil-star-ben-affleck-to-cameo-in-deadpool-3/

Now Ben's done playing Batman, it might be fun seeing him reprise his first superhero role. Even if it's just a cameo. Technically it would be the third movie in which he's played Matt Murdock, counting his deleted cameo in Elektra (2005). You can see that scene at the 3:55 mark in the following vid:

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 24 Jun  2023, 22:16Now Ben's done playing Batman, it might be fun seeing him reprise his first superhero role. Even if it's just a cameo. Technically it would be the third movie in which he's played Matt Murdock, counting his deleted cameo in Elektra (2005). You can see that scene at the 3:55 mark in the following vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3UmewbSX4I

I think so. For Ben, a Daredevil cameo might be somewhat cathartic given that he's likely closing the door on Superhero roles in his life.

Speaking of that scene, I vaguely remember something about Jennifer Garner blithely stating in an interview just prior to filming the "Elektra" movie, that she would love for Ben Affleck and Colin Farrell to make cameos in the film. Well, obviously Affleck filmed one, but for whatever reason it wasn't included. I never understood the reasoning behind that one. Sure, the movie wasn't great, and Affleck's cameo couldn't have improved the film, but it definitely wouldn't have hurt it.   

Hope that Reynolds will use this opportunity to call back Affleck's statement "By playing a superhero in Daredevil, I have inoculated myself from ever playing another superhero ... Wearing a costume was a source of humiliation for me and something I wouldn't want to do again soon." It's too good of a meta joke for a character like Deadpool to ignore.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/deadpool-3-jennifer-garner-returning-as-elektra-1235530539/

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F0djjEUWIAI8_Bb?format=jpg&name=large)

I can't imagine Garner's Elektra (confirmed) return without Affleck's Daredevil in tow. That's a one-two punch if there ever was one.

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  7 Jul  2023, 23:44I can't imagine Garner's Elektra (confirmed) return without Affleck's Daredevil in tow. That's a one-two punch if there ever was one.

It was also a pretty acrimonious divorce from all accounts.

Never say never. But seeing is believing.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  8 Jul  2023, 00:01It was also a pretty acrimonious divorce from all accounts.

Never say never. But seeing is believing.

Well, the use of green screen techniques can be a wonderful thing if professionalism is moot. Compose them together in post production, and voilà.

Right now I'm more intrigued about seeing this version of Daredevil and Elektra return than I am about Born Again. I hope they don't reduce them to a cheap sight gag like you-know-who at the end of The Flash.

Here's a great interview with Mark Steven Johnson where he looks back on Daredevil for its twentieth anniversary. He talks about his plans for the unmade sequel and shares his thoughts on the Netflix show. It's worth a read if you're a fan of this film.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daredevil-ben-affleck-jennifer-garner-mark-steven-johnson-2003-marvel-160016294.html

Yeah, I am pretty much in the same boat.

You know those movies where, sure, you might like the movie well enough, but wind up liking it more due to your own personal experiences/memories that you can't help but continue to associate with the film and that time and place?

Daredevil (2003) is one of those movies for me.

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  8 Jul  2023, 18:39You know those movies where, sure, you might like the movie well enough, but wind up liking it more due to your own personal experiences/memories that you can't help but continue to associate with the film and that time and place?

Daredevil (2003) is one of those movies for me.

Honestly, same. It was a vivid time. I saw it on opening day in a mid-afternoon showing with my (now ex) gf.

It was a good day. We saw the movie, had dinner, did Valentinesy stuff. The movie was the start of my fandom for Evanescence as well.

Plus, I never disliked the film. Sure, the Netflix show is better. But the movie is still decent enough for me. My affection for the movie doesn't come purely from what a good day I had going to see it.

But yes, it is a strange fate to be in higher anticipation of Ben Affleck's next outing as Daredevil than Charlie Cox's. How did things ever get this far??

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  8 Jul  2023, 20:21Honestly, same. It was a vivid time. I saw it on opening day in a mid-afternoon showing with my (now ex) gf.

It was a good day. We saw the movie, had dinner, did Valentinesy stuff. The movie was the start of my fandom for Evanescence as well.

Cool story. Thanks for sharing that, and I appreciate it. Yes, similar circumstances with me and Daredevil (2003) as well. In your case it was decidedly more romantic, where in my situation it was kinda of a 'blind date'/'double date' deal that my buddy set up. The girl was attractive enough, but generally speaking, wasn't my type. However, it didn't defer us from making a night out of it. Following the movie, we had a late dinner, and then decided to head over to a local bowling alley for 'cosmic bowling'. So pretty much, the date didn't really conclude until 2am (cosmic bowling hours usually are 12am-2am here) that night. I must have gotten home around 3am before it was all said and done. Pretty fun night all in all, but no real romance to speak of.

There is an addendum to my Daredevil (2003) story though. Around April that year, I dated a girl I was way more attracted to, and it was much more, shall we say, erogenous than my one-off blind date experience in Feb with Daredevil. With this ex, I remember our first date was checking out "X2: X-Men United", and then later, "Matrix Reloaded" (with the latter, we ended up going to a late 9pm-10pm screening, and upon looking for seats, ran into three of my friends who just coincidentally happened to be there). Anyways, by July, we were broken up. I won't get into specifics, but the relationship burned bright, and quickly burned out as well. When Daredevil hit DVD (I had to look it up but it was late July of that year), I remember going to Wal-Mart really late at night (12am or probably even later), purchasing the DVD, and ending up watching the movie in my room that night, in a melancholic mood, in the dark, with a bowl of cereal (along with all the great extras on disc 2). Haha.

For the rest of that year, the Daredevil (2003) DVD would wind up being one of those movies I would have playing on the TV in the background a lot (for noise), even if I wasn't keenly watching the movie at the time (sometimes I would, sometimes not). But I got pretty familiar with it, and I admittedly have a personal affection towards the movie. Even if it's more pertaining to those vivid experiences/memories by association, than the actual film itself. Although I like it well enough, and always have. 

QuotePlus, I never disliked the film. Sure, the Netflix show is better. But the movie is still decent enough for me. My affection for the movie doesn't come purely from what a good day I had going to see it.

Agree on both counts.

QuoteBut yes, it is a strange fate to be in higher anticipation of Ben Affleck's next outing as Daredevil than Charlie Cox's. How did things ever get this far??

"Strange days indeed." - John Lennon.  ;D

I think Garner's Elektra was the weakest link in the 2003 film. The film was already busy as is, and I would've had her entire cut out, plus her arc was rushed further as soon as she gets stabbed by Bullseye.

Daredevil 2003 is okay. I think it has a lot of visuals and aerial camera shots that get used quite often in comic book films that came after it, and I think Matt Murdock's arc from flawed, lethal killer to redeemed hero (very similar to Batfleck's arc in BvS) is what saves the film. In addition to Elektra being shoehorned, the film just needed a more consistent tone. Sometimes it went from gritty to aping the light-hearted moments of Raimi's Spider-Man.  Still, it's a much better alternative than most of Marvel's stuff nowadays.

As for Garner and (presumably) Affleck coming back? It would've grabbed my interest, but I'm not thrilled about Deadpool as a character nowadays, and the last thing I want to see Daredevil getting stuck in the middle of that tired meta humour formula.

I do think introducing Elektra in the first movie and saving the Last Hand/Daredevil #181 stuff for a possible sequel would've given the first film a lot more focus.

The film could've focused on Daredevil/Murdock dealing with the Kingpin, Bullseye and the Coolio trial in the first movie to clarify his character arc.

Hindsight is 20/20. But when people say the film is too busy, yeah, there's no denying that. Still, I think it's interesting that the main criticism is the film has too many good characters, too many good storylines, etc.

In some ways, Daredevil (2003) reminds me of how Warren Beatty approached Dick Tracy back in 1990. Sure, there were plenty of nods, but it's also discernible that the idea was basically, "Let's try and get as much as we can in, cause we don't know if we'll be making another one!".

With Dick Tracy, it was more about throwing in as many of his rogues gallery into the movie as possible. With Daredevil, as already stated, the decision to try and squeeze in by establishing Matt's origin, Daredevil as a crime fighter, Kingpin as the antagonist, Elektra's saga, Bullseye as a villainous rival, Ben Urich's investigation, the Coolio subplot, ect was a gutsy undertaking. Even if the execution wasn't always satisfying, it's commendable it turned out as good as it did. Especially the Director's Cut.

The early-mid Marvel comic book movie boom had no formulaic approach and brand to go by, it was a time of experimentation. Trial by error essentially.

QuoteIn some ways, Daredevil (2003) reminds me of how Warren Beatty approached Dick Tracy back in 1990. Sure, there were plenty of nods, but it's also discernible that the idea was basically, "Let's try and get as much as we can in, cause we don't know if we'll be making another one!".

With Dick Tracy, it was more about throwing in as many of his rogues gallery into the movie as possible. With Daredevil, as already stated, the decision to try and squeeze in by establishing Matt's origin, Daredevil as a crime fighter, Kingpin as the antagonist, Elektra's saga, Bullseye as a villainous rival, Ben Urich's investigation, the Coolio subplot, ect was a gutsy undertaking. Even if the execution wasn't always satisfying, it's commendable it turned out as good as it did. Especially the Director's Cut.

The early-mid Marvel comic book movie boom had no formulaic approach and brand to go by, it was a time of experimentation. Trial by error essentially.

Ooh, I always love a conversation involving Dick Tracy as that's been my main area of research. It is true that they did indeed include a lot of characters in that film but the beauty of having a comic strip that ran for over a half a centenary at the time it was released was that was just a taste of who could appear in subsequent follow ups. Max Allan Collins was able to carry on with new villains in his follow ups to his novelization that could have gone on further if he wasn't let go from his writing position for the comic strip.

The deal with Daredevil was that it seemed like the filmmakers were set on adapting the Frank Miller run of the character as that was deemed to be the definitive take on the character and that made it much easier and condensed to tell the story they wanted to tell. I do remember thinking after I first saw this film was who or what could be included in a sequel as this one seemed self contained and didn't know any Daredevil villains that could succeed Kingpin, Bullseye or Electra. It all seemed fitting as Affleck made that after-mentioned humiliation quote about doing Daredevil. I hope one day he will address that and just say he was just full of himself back then, because it was a point of contention when he excepted the role of Batman, and pretty much showed that he should've followed his own advice if he wanted to avoid being humiliated, which did happen once Batman v. Superman wasn't the critical success I'm sure he thought it would get.

In both cases of Dick Tracy and Daredevil, the idea of consolidating everything into one film paid off as the sequel prospects didn't pay off.

On the topic of what villains could have possibly been used in a sequel to Daredevil 2003, I vaguely remember, prior to the film being released, reading somewhere (probably Wizard magazine), that Gladiator was being considered. Not sure if this notion was really being considered, if even briefly, or it was just a case of Wizard speculating.

I'll respond to the Dick Tracy stuff over in the Dick Tracy thread, Kamdan. Don't really want to derail the Daredevil thread.  ;D 

Over the past week I've been watching some Young Indiana Jones episodes and The Boondock Saints movies, and I'm now convinced that Sean Patrick Flanery would've been the perfect actor to have played Matt Murdock in the 2000s. He'd definitely have been my top pick.

Matt's usually drawn as having a mixture of tough and vulnerable facial characteristics. Depending on his expression, he can look like a soft pretty boy or a hardened badass. Charlie Cox has the right look, and so does Flanery. He's a solid actor, is the same height as the comic book Daredevil (5'11), has an athletic physique, and is authentic Irish-American. He has a cocky smirk that's ideal for Matt and he would've been the right age at the time.


He can also fight – he's a 4th degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, runs his own martial arts dojo and even competed in the 2003 American National IBJJF Jiu-jitsu Championship where he placed first in his division. On a technical level, his Indiana Jones was a more skilful fighter than the older version played by Ford.


Flanery should've played Daredevil in the 2003 movie. He wasn't as big a name as Affleck was at the time, but he was infinitely better suited to the role. Visually, watching him go up against Michael Clarke Duncan's Fisk would've more accurately reflected the David and Goliath dynamic of the Daredevil vs. Kingpin battles in the comics.

Quote from: The Joker on Tue, 11 Jul  2023, 14:17On the topic of what villains could have possibly been used in a sequel to Daredevil 2003, I vaguely remember, prior to the film being released, reading somewhere (probably Wizard magazine), that Gladiator was being considered. Not sure if this notion was really being considered, if even briefly, or it was just a case of Wizard speculating.

I'm sure Fisk would've returned. If Mark Steven Johnson had followed through on his plan to adapt Born Again, he could've easily mixed it with Ann Nocenti's original Typhoid Mark arc. Both stories involve Fisk orchestrating campaigns to break Daredevil mentally and physically, with Matt having to endure the ordeal and pull himself back together. Typhoid would've offered a new love interest to replace Elektra, as well as a secondary villain-turned-antihero to fit the post-Matrix nougthies female action hero role (leather pants, tank top, etc).

As for who could've played Mary, my pick would've been Lara Flynn Boyle. Her popularity peaked in the early nineties thanks to Twin Peaks and Wayne's World, but she was still a big enough name in the noughties to play the main villain in Men in Black II (2002). I've long suspected that Alex Maleev modelled his drawings of Mary Walker on her. Check out the following comparisons to see what I mean.


Mary's multiple personality disorder would've fit the trend of psychologically-complex movies like Fight Club, Memento, Mulholland Drive and Secret Window. She's one of the most psychologically-layered villains in comics (Harvey Dent has two personalities, Mary's got four). I think audiences would've welcomed that at the time. So Typhoid and Kingpin would've been my picks for the villains in Daredevil II.

I don't think the Hand would've appeared, simply because they were already used in the Elektra movie. And before anyone says, "But Typhoid Mary also appeared in Elektra" – Nah, she didn't. That character wasn't Mary Walker. She was a lame Poison Ivy rip-off who just happened to be called Typhoid. Aside from working with the Hand, she had nothing in common with her namesake from the comics.

I always thought that in live action, Typhoid Mary should have all of her alters on the screen simultaneously... which even 2000's technology would've easily allowed. Having the same actress playing the alters at once would've been fun.

Plus, you could always guess which alter is steering the ship based on who's talking in the scene.

Handled properly, this could've been very effective. Plus, it would've been very different from what contemporaneous comic book films were doing. As powerful as Willem DaFoe talking to himself in a mirror might be, having all Typhoid Mary's alters onscreen simultaneously arguing with each other (or whatever) would've been a good way to differentiate the Typhoid Mary character from the Green Goblin.

And Boyle would've been a great choice for that. But she did spend part of her career looking down her nose at big Hollywood blockbusters, so it's anybody's guess if she would've accepted the role.

Go the Multiplicity route? That would've been interesting.

I'd have started the film with Mary Walker and Typhoid presented as too distinct characters appearing in separate scenes. You'd only glimpse Typhoid in the shadows, or with the painted side of her face to the camera, so that casual cinemagoers wouldn't recognise her as the same actress playing Mary. Obviously she'd have to use two different voices to differentiate between them.

As in the comics, Mary would start finding creepy notes left around her apartment by Typhoid telling her to stay away from Murdock or she'll kill him. Daredevil could have his first violent encounter with Typhoid without realising she's Mary. About a third of the way into the movie there'd be a scene where we seen both Mary and Typhoid on camera at the same time. They have a tense conversation where Typhoid holds a blade to Mary's throat. At this point casual cinemagoers would still think they're two separate characters.

Mary would ask Matt to protect her from Typhoid, and Matt would agree, still not realising they're the same woman. In Born Again Fisk had Matt's house blown up, and in the movie I'd make Typhoid the one who did it. You could have a close-up shot of her lips as she whispers "Burn", then cut to a shot of the incendiary device igniting before cutting back to a close-up of her lips smiling.

By this point Fisk would have found a way of driving a wedge between Matt and Foggy, so Matt would go to Mary's apartment looking for help. But before he gets there we'd have a scene of Mary and Typhoid arguing intensely. Typhoid again holds a blade to Mary's throat, and as Matt enters the room we switch to his POV. It's then that we see Mary standing side-on holding the blade to her own throat. Matt asks what she's doing, and as she turns towards him we see the other half of her face covered in white make-up. It's then that the audience would realise Mary and Typhoid are one and the same. There could even be a Fight Club-style flashback where we revisit the earlier scenes between the two women, only we now see Mary talking to herself. We'd also see Matt's sonar view of Mary as her outline and heartbeat change when she switches to Typhoid.

Capitalising on Matt's confusion, Blood Mary could take over and unleash a brutal beat down on Daredevil that leaves him burnt and bloodied. He manages to escape, but is now wandering the streets, homeless, injured and heartbroken. Typhoid reports the success of her mission to Fisk, who smiles at the thought of his enemy's humiliation. Meanwhile Matt collapses in an alleyway next to a church, where he's found by a mysterious nun...

Born Again's theme of betrayal could be transferred from Karen to Mary (the movie Kingpin already knows Matt is Daredevil, so the drug storyline isn't needed), and just as Karen tried to help Matt in the second half of the comic, Mary could have a redemptive arc in the movie where she gains control over Typhoid and Bloody Mary in order to help Matt defeat Fisk. Just when it seems that she and Daredevil are on the same side, Kingpin would throw them a curve ball during the final showdown by uttering the codeword that triggers Mary's fourth personality.

Yep, a Daredevil II based on the Born Again and Typhoid Mary arcs could've been awesome.

I think a challenge with Typhoid Mary has always been the number of alters she has. I've wondered if it would confuse audiences.

Now, I think audiences can get their collective head around Good Alter and Evil Alter. But of course, Typhoid Mary isn't quite that simple.

So, it becomes of question of whether you adapt potentially challenging (and deal-breaking) material or do you simplify it?

My workaround for it would've been showing only Mary and Typhoid while raising the question if other alters might also exist.

Something that challenges my thesis is Split. The Beast is clearly the villainous character but Hedwig, Patricia, Dennis and other alters are clearly on his side too. And nobody seemed too confused by that.

The first time I watched Split it immediately made me think of Typhoid Mary. I can't say if Shyamalan has read the Daredevil comics, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had. It wasn't just the multiple personalities that made it similar, but the antagonistic relationships between them. That movie offers a great template for how Typhoid's psychological profile could be handled in terms of performance.

I watched the Daredevil Director's Cut again last night, and I think it holds up reasonably well. It's a good film IMHO. Not as good as Spider-Man I & II, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight or X-Men II, but still one of the better superhero movies of the 2000s. I'd rank it roughly on a par with Blade II, and ahead of The Punisher '04. Speaking of which, I was thinking it would be cool if Thomas Jane's Punisher showed up in Deadpool 3 and shared a scene with Affleck's Daredevil. Affleck's role, if the rumours of his involvement are true, will likely be a small cameo, but seeing him interact with the Punisher could make it worthwhile.

A few similarities I noticed between Daredevil and the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies:

•   The gothic look of Daredevil aligns it with the cinematic trend for darker superhero movies started by Batman '89.
•   The hero's origin story is rewritten to make his arch foe the killer of his parent(s). The hero doesn't find out about this until the final act.
•   Ben Urich's first scene, where he bickers with Manolis at the scene of Daredevil's latest sighting, is similar to the scene between Knox and Eckhardt in B89.
•   The line "What a dick" is spoken in both Batman '89 and Daredevil – by Knox in B89, and by Foggy in the DD Director's Cut.
•   DD and B89 both feature a showdown in a church which ends with the villain falling to the street below where the police surround his body. Bullseye survives, Joker doesn't.
•   The rooftop fight between Daredevil and Elektra is similar to the first rooftop fight between Batman and Catwoman in Batman Returns. In both movies the female character attacks the male hero, who barely fights back, and ends up stabbing him with her signature weapon.
•   Bullseye incriminating Daredevil using his billy club recalls Penguin (who Farrell would later play) framing Batman with the batarang in Batman Returns.
•   Matt's line to Elektra about revenge not making the pain go away echoes what Bruce says to Dick in Batman Forever.
•   Keaton and Affleck were both trained by Dave Lea in preparation for their roles.
•   Coolio plays a criminal in both DD and Batman & Robin.

I've speculated multiple times that Affleck has creatively checked out of comic book stuff. He may yet do a cameo appearance as Daredevil in Deadpool 3. But largely, I think Affleck wants to move on to other things. Fish posted a quote from him in a thread about The Flash:

Quote from: Affleck by way of The Laughing Fish on Sat,  8 Apr  2023, 04:08"This isn't the life I want. My kids aren't here. I'm miserable." You want to go to work and find something interesting to hang onto, rather than just wearing a rubber suit, and most of it you're just standing against the computer screen going, "If this nuclear waste gets loose, we'll ..." That's fine. I don't condescend to that or put it down, but I got to a point where I found it creatively not satisfying. Also just, you're sweaty and exhausted. And I thought, "I don't want to participate in this in any way. And I don't want to squander any more of my life, of which I have a limited amount."

And I have to say that this kind of supports what I said below all those years ago.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 17 Jun  2020, 03:18Affleck had a brief moment of honesty. And in that moment, he validated the conversation Kevin Smith claimed to have with him ("I'll make my big nut on Daredevil and then come do Jersey Girl for chump change") while also revealing that he was never really too invested in Daredevil.

His role as Chuckie in Good Will Hunting is far smaller than his role in Daredevil. But I would bet you a million dollars that he gets more creative satisfaction from watching just one Chuckie moment from GWH than the entirety of Daredevil. I would also bet that he gets even greater satisfaction from watching just five minutes of The Town than the entirety of etc.

He didn't go to Hollywood to play Daredevil. He went there to play Chuckie, direct The Town and do the other "more personal" items on his resumé. Stuff like Daredevil or Armageddon is what he has to do pay the bills between projects that he's probably more emotionally invested in such as The Company Men.

Watching the movie Hollywoodland, I've often wondered how much of himself Affleck actually poured into that role or at least poured into certain scenes. Did the mask slip? Does he relate to George Reeves on a borderline inappropriate visceral level? "You liked me where I was, in a ****ing red suit! Well, that's not who I am!" I have no idea if "red suit" was what was in the script or if that was a Freudian moment for Affleck that wound up in the movie. Either way, it's kind of perfect.

And honestly, if his quote from Fish is the way he feels, more power to him. Between the negative (initial) reaction to his portrayal of Batman, his divorce and his substance issue, it would be perfectly understandable if he wants to do things his own way from now on.

I'm now becoming convinced the only reason Affleck appeared in The Flash is that he was contractually obliged to do so, as a condition for Warners tolerating his support for ZSJL and the additional photography he filmed. I don't think Warners would've bothered to ask Affleck to do any work for The Flash if ZSJL was still locked up in a vault to this day.

Although Affleck had gone on record to say he lost interest in the role after the all turmoil surrounding the Josstice L reshoots and struggling to deal with his own personal problems, we should not disregard the time he appeared willing to come back to the role. Nobody thought he was willing to come back do film cameos for Aquaman 2 and a post-credit scene for The Flash, so there must've been a plan at some point last year that they building up his return. That is until Gunn and Safran sabotaged everything. Affleck summing up how he regretted his time was over when he was getting back into the groove of it on that red carpet premiere tells you he had a renewed interest.

I may not understand Affleck's decision to want to do Daredevil again knowing his distaste for the 2003 film, but knowing what I know now about everything surrounding his time as Batman, I can't blame the guy for leaving that role. The initial backlash is one thing, but when you have a studio that is disloyal and clearly doesn't give a sh*t about your well-being, it's not worth the trouble.