I love both Batman '89 and Batman Returns. But my favorite by far is Batman Returns. I think it's because I feel that all of the gothic weirdness, darkness and dark camp fits Batman's world perfectly. Batman '89 has these elements too but to a lesser extreme so I am very fond of both movies though. I think Batman Returns has a darker and more haunting score, even better acting and some more touching moments. On the other hand though I think Batman '89 has the best villain. But I also think Batman Returns has the best Gotham City. It's darker, more gothic and has all of those statues and stone faces that remind me of things I'd expect to only see in my nightmares. Also, I think Batman Returns is just more beautiful and bright (in a dark way) to look at. It's Gotham City looks cleaner and more attractive to the eye in spite of how much darker and more nightmarish it is. I feel I could call Batman Returns a beautiful nightmare.
Which of the two movies do people prefer and why?
Quote from: JokerMeThis on Sun, 23 Mar 2014, 20:42
I love both Batman '89 and Batman Returns. But my favorite by far is Batman Returns. I think it's because I feel that all of the gothic weirdness, darkness and dark camp fits Batman's world perfectly. Batman '89 has these elements too but to a lesser extreme so I am very fond of both movies though. I think Batman Returns has a darker and more haunting score, even better acting and some more touching moments. On the other hand though I think Batman '89 has the best villain. But I also think Batman Returns has the best Gotham City. It's darker, more gothic and has all of those statues and stone faces that remind me of things I'd expect to only see in my nightmares. Also, I think Batman Returns is just more beautiful and bright (in a dark way) to look at. It's Gotham City looks cleaner and more attractive to the eye in spite of how much darker and more nightmarish it is. I feel I could call Batman Returns a beautiful nightmare.
Which of the other two movies do people prefer and why?
I agree that 'Batman Returns' is a better looking film than its predecessor, although the dirty, polluted, inhospitable nature of 89's Gotham is part of what makes that depiction of the city seem so spot-on. However, I prefer the first Burton Batman overall because I simply find it to be a more coherent, tighter movie in terms of storytelling. I also like its depiction of Batman as a brooding mystery man that Gotham treats as an urban myth to begin with. 'Batman Returns' is a wonderful, beautiful-looing film with some brilliant sub-texts what it does less well is the 'text'/central narrative.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Sun, 23 Mar 2014, 22:02
I agree that 'Batman Returns' is a better looking film than its predecessor, although the dirty, polluted, inhospitable nature of 89's Gotham is part of what makes that depiction of the city seem so spot-on. However, I prefer the first Burton Batman overall because I simply find it to be a more coherent, tighter movie in terms of storytelling. I also like its depiction of Batman as a brooding mystery man that Gotham treats as an urban myth to begin with. 'Batman Returns' is a wonderful, beautiful-looing film with some brilliant sub-texts what it does less well is the 'text'/central narrative.
I agree with you johnny. Even though I'll admit that Returns is technically a better made film in terms of having better production quality and less editing mistakes, I enjoy the first one more for Batman's mythical appeal and how Gotham City looked more like timeless with a combination of 1940s and present day 1980s feel, as opposed to how it literally looked gothic in Returns. It's helps that Joker's black comedy works too. ;D
Returns is a good film, but I personally don't find it as entertaining as the first. I have to be in certain moods to watch it because it can be bleak and depressing at times.
joker's black comedy does work. i watched the movie with friends one time and i was giggling at nearly everything he said and my friends were like horrified lol
to me '89 is like THE batman film because it can stand alone and like somebody else said in a thread i made about it standing alone it has all the things a batman movie needs, but batman returns is my favorite by far because of the obvious of michelle's catwoman but also just the vibe of the movie. its look and feel. it takes me to a part of my brain that i love, even if it isn't very comfortable or happy.
I like both for different reasons - none is really better than the other, just different.
Returns is my movie. Joker is my favorite villain, and Jack did very well. But I find DeVito's Penguin fascinating. Pfieffer's Catwoman doesn't really need any explanation, and Walken eats up every scene he's in.
It's an opera of four main characters that comes down to one hell of a haunting conclusion in Penguin's lair. Bruce's heart to heart with Selina which is cruelly rejected. Schreck shooting Selina over and over, before getting fried. Penguin's strangely touching death scene. Then Bruce as the last man standing, alone again.
Simply amazing, and ballsy stuff to put in a comic book film. It is a beautiful film to look at, can be enjoyed on a pure aesthetic/entertainment standpoint - but also has rich themes to explore as well if the viewer desires.
I got to admit, as gross as the Penguin is in Batman Returns, I'm struggling to find any other twisted comic villain on film that had gut-wrenching scenes like he has i.e. abandoned by his parents in the beginning of the film, finding his parents' graves, and being carried and dropped into the water by his pet penguins once he dies in the end.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 25 Mar 2014, 01:23
I got to admit, as gross as the Penguin is in Batman Returns, I'm struggling to find any other twisted comic villain on film that had gut-wrenching scenes like he has i.e. abandoned by his parents in the beginning of the film, finding his parents' graves, and being carried and dropped into the water by his pet parents once he dies in the end.
No other villain really comes close to this sad, twisted upbringing.
I think Gotham looked timeless in both movies. Even more timeless in Batman Returns. In Batman '89 it looks just like a combination of the 1940's and 1980's. In Batman Returns it's both of those again but also with a early 1900's and even late 1800's look with the elite clothing worn by Oswald, his parents and Max Shreck.
I think part of why I like Batman's Returns' Gotham better is because of the oppressive nature of it. With the statues, stone faces, gothic look and depressing nature I feel a sense of evil from it. I feel that the city itself is evil. In Batman '89 I get the feeling Gotham isn't evil but rather corrupt. I like that too but corruption isn't as interesting or dramatic as just plain evil.
I find Batman Returns the most entertaining of the two. Both are though. And Batman Returns doesn't make me unhappy or depressed although I do appreciate the darkness and sadness of the movie and find beauty in it. I think it's a fun movie in the end and it actually makes me feel good on some level, particularly the very last scene.
I think that the Joker is very funny. He has a lot of clever and witty lines. In spite of how evil he is I find him strangely lovable.
Batman '89 and Batman Returns each stand alone fine in my opinion.
QuoteIt's an opera of four main characters that comes down to one hell of a haunting conclusion in Penguin's lair. Bruce's heart to heart with Selina which is cruelly rejected. Schreck shooting Selina over and over, before getting fried. Penguin's strangely touching death scene. Then Bruce as the last man standing, alone again.
Simply amazing, and ballsy stuff to put in a comic book film. It is a beautiful film to look at, can be enjoyed on a pure aesthetic/entertainment standpoint - but also has rich themes to explore as well if the viewer desires.
This is a great quote.
And in spite of how evil Penguin is his death and burial scene is strangely sad. Tim Burton did a good job making us feel sorry for this monster. A poor, unfortunate soul who didn't ask to be born and didn't asked to be deformed. It makes me wonder what could have been had he looked more "normal."
The Gotham in B89 has a dirty atmosphere. It looks like it needs a good dose of soapy water and general love and care. For people to pick up the rubbish strewn in the streets and such. But nobody cares. It's a grand place but rundown, reflecting the people who live there. The BR Gotham feels more haunted. (Penguin's Arctic Lair Zoo, for example, just imagine walking through there. No thanks.) In the City the people are tiny dots on a frozen landscape - often all alone, with the buildings looking down upon them.
QuoteThe Gotham in B89 has a dirty atmosphere. It looks like it needs a good dose of soapy water and general love and care. For people to pick up the rubbish strewn in the streets and such. But nobody cares. It's a grand place but rundown, reflecting the people who live there. The BR Gotham feels more haunted. (Penguin's Arctic Lair Zoo, for example, just imagine walking through there. No thanks.) In the City the people are tiny dots on a frozen landscape - often all alone, with the buildings looking down upon them.
This is great.
Gotham in the first movie seems like a normal American city although one trapped in the 1940's in some respects. More corrupt than evil. But in Batman Returns I feel that the city is evil. Almost in a supernatural sense as though it were a colony of Hell. And the circus things make it even scarier. It reminds me of horror movies that involve circuses and carnivals.
I imagine what it would be like to be walking through the abandoned zoo at night in December when it's freezing. All alone (or am I?). It would be like walking through a graveyard on a dark, cold Halloween night. Just the thought makes me scared a little. I feel like walking through Gotham in general would be like that. Batman Returns' Gotham I mean.
I'm on a Max Schreck binge of late. The guy is a vampire. The self-titled mean and twisted soul of Gotham City. What does he want? What everybody wants. Power. Literally. To suck electricity out of the grid and set it aside for himself. How interesting, blending the conceptual and literal together.
The BR Gotham does have this type of feel. Like the marrow has been sucked out of it. Bare streetscapes, silence and bleak skies. Schreck wants to make the place even darker for his own gain. Now that sounds like a truly ruthless businessman. What is he going to do with that power? Who knows, but he wants as much of it as he can get. As he says himself, "One can never have too much power."
Speaking of bare landscapes, I vaguely remember Burton saying in the DVD commentary that when the Batmobile passes by as the Penguin is looking for his parents in City Hall, the roads are intentionally kept empty; because even though Batman is keeping the streets safe, nobody dares to come out and approach him. Could it be that Burton was saying everybody afraid of Batman? Was he suggesting Batman is literally keeping everyone on their toes - both innocent bystanders and criminals? I'll have to listen to that part again soon.
As much as I love the first film, Batman Returns is my favourite. Such an underrated masterpiece with substance and entertainment value in equal measure, delicious black comedy, brilliant performances, memorable dialogue, stunning visuals and a beautiful score. It's a really ballsy and ambitious film, unlike any other comic book adaptation I've seen. Critic Ty Burr was right to say that it was probably the first blockbuster art film.
Quote from: DallyWhitty on Mon, 31 Mar 2014, 21:46
As much as I love the first film, Batman Returns is my favourite. Such an underrated masterpiece with substance and entertainment value in equal measure, delicious black comedy, brilliant performances, memorable dialogue, stunning visuals and a beautiful score. It's a really ballsy and ambitious film, unlike any other comic book adaptation I've seen. Critic Ty Burr was right to say that it was probably the first blockbuster art film.
It definitely is a film that has imagination. Between the first and second, Returns especially has more Burton's distinctive Gothic style that are seen in most of his films. His directorial style does help to suspend disbelief that a mutant Penguin and Catwoman with literally nine lives can come to life.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 31 Mar 2014, 23:48
His directorial style does help to suspend disbelief that a mutant Penguin and Catwoman with literally nine lives can come to life.
I don't think she's supernatural. Gotham Alleys did a fine article on it here:
http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/catwoman-supernatural.html
Still can't decide. I like Furst's Gotham design more, but Welch's has its unique charm.
I pick BR just because it has a lot less friends.
B'89 is the popular one - fans either like it, even if it's for nostalgia or pure entertainment value because of Nicholson, or at the very least grudgingly accept it as a historically important comic book film.
On the other hand, Batman Returns is the Burton outcast - unfairly maligned, being made fun of, called names ("a Batman film in name only", "weirdness", "Pfeiffer's Catwoman was the only good thing in it", "Penguin is disgusting" etc). There's a select few arguing it's a great Batman film, it has a strong cult following, but many fans just write it off and put it into the pile of the "increasingly bad" sequels.
I don't mean to sound like a party pooper but there is a poll on this is the miscellaneous Burton board.
Quote from: riddler on Sat, 5 Apr 2014, 12:45
I don't mean to sound like a party pooper but there is a poll on this is the miscellaneous Burton board.
(quoting AVGN) "it's not called poop, it's called sh-it"
Quote from: riddler on Sat, 5 Apr 2014, 12:45
I don't mean to sound like a party pooper but there is a poll on this is the miscellaneous Burton board.
JokerMeThis wasn't a member back in 2012 when that thread was last active. Plus, that thread was done more as a poll whereas this one seems to be more discursive.
Quote from: Nycteris on Fri, 11 Apr 2014, 13:41
Quote from: riddler on Sat, 5 Apr 2014, 12:45
I don't mean to sound like a party pooper but there is a poll on this is the miscellaneous Burton board.
(quoting AVGN) "it's not called poop, it's called sh-it"
"You know, it's all coming back to me now. I remember once long ago I had this game in my possession. I just remember seeing this blank cartridge for a pale emotionless game, with the dullest graphics, the most awful gameplay. I spent eight years trying to figure it out, and another seven trying to keep it locked in my closet. Because I realised what was living behind that game... was simply... evil."
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 11 Apr 2014, 19:24
Quote from: Nycteris on Fri, 11 Apr 2014, 13:41
Quote from: riddler on Sat, 5 Apr 2014, 12:45
I don't mean to sound like a party pooper but there is a poll on this is the miscellaneous Burton board.
(quoting AVGN) "it's not called poop, it's called sh-it"
"You know, it's all coming back to me now. I remember once long ago I had this game in my possession. I just remember seeing this blank cartridge for a pale emotionless game, with the dullest graphics, the most awful gameplay. I spent eight years trying to figure it out, and another seven trying to keep it locked in my closet. Because I realised what was living behind that game... was simply... evil."
Exactly, lol.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 11 Apr 2014, 17:16
Quote from: riddler on Sat, 5 Apr 2014, 12:45
I don't mean to sound like a party pooper but there is a poll on this is the miscellaneous Burton board.
JokerMeThis wasn't a member back in 2012 when that thread was last active. Plus, that thread was done more as a poll whereas this one seems to be more discursive.
sorry if I came off as pretentious I just figured he'd get some responses he was looking for about the thread.
I am very happy with the responses on this thread and others actually. I wasn't interested in a poll but rather discussion. But I took no offense. Thanks for the responses.