I posted the following back in the BvS Spoiler Thread, but I believe it's more appropriate to dedicate an entire thread about our favourite scenes in the movie.
I'll start with my own list:
- The opening montage where Bruce witnesses his parents getting murdered and falling into the cave was a great new interpretation to his backstory - and the most comic accurate to date. Bruce getting lifted up back on the ground by the bats in the end is inspiring stuff I reckon - I don't care if anybody else finds it "cheesy".
- Bruce witnessing the Battle of Metropolis and feeling angry and powerless over the situation. The part where he saves the girl and learns her mother was killed in the building is tragic.
- The montage of Superman rescuing people around the world while media personalities debate his presence. My only complaint is I wish we saw more of these scenes.
- The Batmobile chase was great. I pity anyone who complains about this scene because "it relies too much on CGI".
- The Martha Kent rescue scene. Need I say more? People might complain Batman said it so soon after his battle with Superman, but him telling Martha "I'm a friend of your son" is a great way to soothe her nerves and outline the realization for once and for all Supes is not the enemy.
- Despite everything that Lex did to him, Superman saves him by laying the first punch on Doomsday. If that doesn't scream Superman to you, then nothing will.
- Superman's sacrifice to stop Doomsday was a great ending, the best I've seen in a comic book movie for a while. Saying to Lois "This is my world. You are my world" before defiantly flying into Doomsday with the Kryptonite spear and stops him once and for all. I have my gripes with him in this movie, but the ending works for me, and it was the best way to get the Justice League to form and carry on his legacy.
A special mention should go to Bruce's nightmare. Not the post-apocalyptic one, but the one where he enters the family tomb, sees blood pouring out of his mother's coffin, and sees a giant bat pop out of it and sucks him inside.
What are everybody else's favourite scenes in the movie?
I still think the best scene is Batman fighting in the warehouse. By far, the best Batman fight scene on film. Nothing even comes close to it.
Honestly, the whole movie.
As maligned as the scene is, I enjoyed the entire sequence of Batman saving Martha Wayne
1. The batwing sequence of Alfred dropping him a floor below the thugs
2. The stalking manner in which Batman takes down the thugs Arkham style
3. The exchange between batman and Martha "I'm a friend of your son... I kind of figured that. Must be the cape"
4. Lex: "break the news about Martha" Batman "I'd prefer to do the breaking in person"
That whole thing gave me goosebumps in the theatre. You could argue that moment of Batman and Superman agreeing to help each other on the big screen had been built up for 70 years and 2 hours of run time and at least for me it didn't disappoint
As I said, the whole movie is great to me.
But I really enjoyed the segment of film from Alfred visiting Bruce at his lakeside house, giving him the invitation to Luthor's party, Bruce driving the black Aston Martin and having his subsequent verbal encounters with Clark. I thought it was good fun, especially planting the device on Lex's computer servers, and Clark hearing Alfred in Bruce's earpiece. It all came off like an old school BTAS/JL type scenario.
Quote from: riddler on Fri, 13 May 2016, 14:24
As maligned as the scene is, I enjoyed the entire sequence of Batman saving Martha Wayne
Why was it maligned? Because Batman kills? As if that's never happened before in the franchise.
I may be a Burton Batman fan, but damn, that fight scene was the best Batman action sequence to date.
What made that fight scene so good (beyond its sheer epicness) was the fact that you could see exactly what was going on. Christopher Nolan's frantic unfocused flash fighting looked ok I guess but being able to see Lex's thugs taken apart one by one was much more satisfying. It was like "Hell yes, mess with him again motherf***er. Just THINK about standing in the way of him rescuing his new BFF's momma. Actually, don't, since your ribs are stuck through your lungs and your legs are pointed the wrong direction. Wow, it's a little hot in there, maybe you should run. Oh wait, you can't."
I promise I'm only that sadistic with bad guys...
Quote from: riddler on Fri, 13 May 2016, 14:24
As maligned as the scene is, I enjoyed the entire sequence of Batman saving Martha Wayne
1. The batwing sequence of Alfred dropping him a floor below the thugs
2. The stalking manner in which Batman takes down the thugs Arkham style
3. The exchange between batman and Martha "I'm a friend of your son... I kind of figured that. Must be the cape"
4. Lex: "break the news about Martha" Batman "I'd prefer to do the breaking in person"
That whole thing gave me goosebumps in the theatre. You could argue that moment of Batman and Superman agreeing to help each other on the big screen had been built up for 70 years and 2 hours of run time and at least for me it didn't disappoint
This.
The fight itself in the rain between Batman and Superman delivered for me.
I don't want to bring in Civil War, but hey, I will. In that airport fight scene (which while good, is overhyped to the max IMO), I don't really feel that the heroes are giving it their all. You can feel they are holding back.
Not so in BvS. Batman is going in for the kill. Completely merciless. And Superman fights back where he can, to the point he's charging with a clenched fist and letting out a primal scream. The drama of Batman firing that second kryptonite grenade worked for me. It summed it all up. Batman has to have all his tricks working and executed perfectly, or he dies.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 15 May 2016, 03:03
The fight itself in the rain between Batman and Superman delivered for me.
I don't want to bring in Civil War, but hey, I will. In that airport fight scene (which while good, is overhyped to the max IMO), I don't really feel that the heroes are giving it their all. You can feel they are holding back.
Not so in BvS. Batman is going in for the kill. Completely merciless. And Superman fights back where he can, to the point he's charging with a clenched fist and letting out a primal scream. The drama of Batman firing that second kryptonite grenade worked for me. It summed it all up. Batman has to have all his tricks working and executed perfectly, or he dies.
I think a fairer comparison from Civil War would be Cap/Winter Solder vs Iron Man and Batman and Superman's battle.
Both are violent and intense to watch. A little bit ironic that motherhood was what knocked senses into Batman and made him realise he was accomplishing what Lex manipulated him into doing. Whereas
**SPOILERS FOR CIVIL WAR BELOW**Zemo showed footage of Bucky murdering Tony's parents in the hopes that it would turn Tony against Bucky and Steve. And it worked, as Tony didn't care if Bucky was programmed to kill. All he saw was the man who "killed my mum".
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 13 May 2016, 14:41
Quote from: riddler on Fri, 13 May 2016, 14:24
As maligned as the scene is, I enjoyed the entire sequence of Batman saving Martha Wayne
Why was it maligned? Because Batman kills? As if that's never happened before in the franchise.
I may be a Burton Batman fan, but damn, that fight scene was the best Batman action sequence to date.
I think people found it too cheezy that the name Martha made Batman completely pull a 180 from trying to kill superman to becoming his ally.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 15 May 2016, 04:07
I think a fairer comparison from Civil War would be Cap/Winter Solder vs Iron Man and Batman and Superman's battle.
Actually, yes, you're right. I suppose it's because the airport fight seems to be getting all the attention.
Quote from: riddler on Mon, 16 May 2016, 15:52
I think people found it too cheezy that the name Martha made Batman completely pull a 180 from trying to kill superman to becoming his ally.
Of course, as you know, that's an oversimplification to describe the scene. I'll admit that the lead up to the moment doesn't hold up when you critique Superman, who despite trying to warn Batman the first time, didn't say anything again until right before he's about to get killed. And I do think transition of the scenes between the end of the fight and going off to the warehouse could've been smoother.
But I do like the idea behind the scene. Bruce is so beyond freaking out over a possible threat, until Martha triggered him into realising that he was becoming everything he spent his whole life fighting against, and would've given Lex exactly what he wanted. It was a moment that pulled Bruce from the brink. I thought there was a basis for Bruce's redemption.
Besides, I don't see how anybody could find this moment cheesy compared to Two-Face becoming evil in TDK. He stares right at the Joker, the man who murdered Rachel...and yet he spares him and takes his anger out at those who failed to stop him because of that idiotic "Agent of Chaos" speech. But THAT gets a pass isntead. It's a bit rich.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 17 May 2016, 08:08
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 15 May 2016, 04:07
I think a fairer comparison from Civil War would be Cap/Winter Solder vs Iron Man and Batman and Superman's battle.
Actually, yes, you're right. I suppose it's because the airport fight seems to be getting all the attention.
If the airport fight is getting more attention, I suspect it's because it's lighter in tone compared to that grim final fight. Don't be fooled by Spider-Man and Ant-Man changing the tone in the second act. Civil War is quite dark.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 17 May 2016, 10:12Besides, I don't see how anybody could find this moment cheesy compared to Two-Face becoming evil in TDK. He stares right at the Joker, the man who murdered Rachel...and yet he spares him and takes his anger out at those who failed to stop him because of that idiotic "Agent of Chaos" speech. But THAT gets a pass isntead. It's a bit rich.
You keep pretending like this is what happened. It isn't. Harvey wanted to kill him, but the coin laid on tails. There's no pass. Have a very great day!
God bless you! God bless everyone!
I really loved this movie, but for some reason, one scene I tend to replay alot in my mind is the scene where Clark comes home to Lois, who's in the tub, and there's that conversation between them where Superman's public perception is discussed, but she emotionally thanks him for everything, and then looks at Clark while adding, "I just don't know if it's possible for you to love me and be you,".
I just really liked how Snyder handled this scene, with Clark looking down, non-verbally suggesting that there's no reason for her to feel like that in his mind, and suddenly deciding to jump in the tub with Lois, with the holding shot of Clark's glasses on the floor, being splashed by the water.
Course there are alot of other scenes, but I guess it might go without saying that any/all scenes with Diana/Wonder Woman was aces with me. For a guy who grew up loving Lynda Carter, and own hundreds of Wonder Woman comics, it was a treat to finally see her up there on the silver screen.
Quote from: The Joker on Tue, 31 May 2016, 07:40
I really loved this movie, but for some reason, one scene I tend to replay alot in my mind is the scene where Clark comes home to Lois, who's in the tub, and there's that conversation between them where Superman's public perception is discussed, but she emotionally thanks him for everything, and then looks at Clark while adding, "I just don't know if it's possible for you to love me and be you,".
I just really liked how Snyder handled this scene, with Clark looking down, non-verbally suggesting that there's no reason for her to feel like that in his mind, and suddenly deciding to jump in the tub with Lois, with the holding shot of Clark's glasses on the floor, being splashed by the water.
There's that, but there's also the sexy shot of Amy Adams in the bathtub. ;)
I have to admit, when I watched that scene in the theatre, I couldn't but think of the reaction of the parents who brought their kids to watch this movie. And they were sitting closer to the front row! ;D
But it shouldn't a big deal. Batman and Superman films have a history of provocative and adult themed moments.
There are several good scenes but I've always liked the beginning sequence sequence and also when Batman and Superman are duking it out, with Batman dragging Super with that cord (?) I always thought it looked like a hunter getting his prey. Awesome scene!
Quote from: Grissom on Thu, 2 Jun 2016, 04:33
There are several good scenes but I've always liked the beginning sequence sequence and also when Batman and Superman are duking it out, with Batman dragging Super with that cord (?) I always thought it looked like a hunter getting his prey. Awesome scene!
The fight was excellent. I geeked out when Batman delivered the "my parents taught me a different lesson, dying in a gutter for no reason at all" line.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 2 Jun 2016, 04:42
Quote from: Grissom on Thu, 2 Jun 2016, 04:33
There are several good scenes but I've always liked the beginning sequence sequence and also when Batman and Superman are duking it out, with Batman dragging Super with that cord (?) I always thought it looked like a hunter getting his prey. Awesome scene!
The fight was excellent. I geeked out when Batman delivered the "my parents taught me a different lesson, dying in a gutter for no reason at all" line.
Same here. I just found out that line is from The Dark Knight Returns.
Batman: You sold us out, Clark. You gave them the power that should have been ours. Just like your parents taught you. My parents taught me a different lesson... lying on this street... shaking in deep shock... dying for no reason at all. They showed me that the world only makes sense when you force it to.
Quote from: OutRiddled on Thu, 2 Jun 2016, 09:09
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 2 Jun 2016, 04:42
Quote from: Grissom on Thu, 2 Jun 2016, 04:33
There are several good scenes but I've always liked the beginning sequence sequence and also when Batman and Superman are duking it out, with Batman dragging Super with that cord (?) I always thought it looked like a hunter getting his prey. Awesome scene!
The fight was excellent. I geeked out when Batman delivered the "my parents taught me a different lesson, dying in a gutter for no reason at all" line.
Same here. I just found out that line is from The Dark Knight Returns.
Batman: You sold us out, Clark. You gave them the power that should have been ours. Just like your parents taught you. My parents taught me a different lesson... lying on this street... shaking in deep shock... dying for no reason at all. They showed me that the world only makes sense when you force it to.
That's the one. Direct lift from DKR, just like the "I believe you" moment. It was bliss.
All those TDKR references pushed my fanboy buttons. Of course, if they wanted to go the full nine, Batman would've lost the fight like he did in TDKR while Superman barely defended himself. But the story needed Batman to almost kill Superman. So hmm.
One of my favorite moments was the cop stumbling upon Batman after he branded the kidnapper at the beginning of the movie. Batman crawls across the ceiling and escapes. No laborious explanations for how he did it. He just did it and the audience rolls with it.
That entire sequence was amazing. The victims were scared of their own rescuer and the cops were scared crapless to even go upstairs. It really nailed the fear and paranoia Batman engenders.
The only way to improve on it would've been a scene that showed that stuff happening to criminals. The POV characters were either victims or police. But seeing the terror Batman inspires among Gotham's underworld would've been absolute perfection.
But it's still awesome the way it is right now.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 29 Jun 2016, 01:15
The victims were scared of their own rescuer and the cops were scared crapless to even go upstairs.
For me, the B89 introduction of Batman remains number one. It's flat out iconic. But BvS's Batman introduction is a very close second. The people he rescues would rather imprison themselves behind bars than be free in the same building as 'him'. Top stuff.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 29 Jun 2016, 02:53
For me, the B89 introduction of Batman remains number one. It's flat out iconic. But BvS's Batman introduction is a very close second. The people he rescues would rather imprison themselves behind bars than be free in the same building as 'him'. Top stuff.
Yeah, I liked that as well.
The people's fear of Batman, is like that of the criminals he opposes, and this works incredibly well for what the idea of Bruce choosing a costume to evoke fear. Not just theatrics to ramp up the feeling of dread, but also the notion that the mere
sight of him would cause one to be incredibly frightened, and unstable. That's something I felt was the case in Batman 1989, and again in BvS.
Yeah. The only other similar example would perhaps be Batman's silhouette after rescuing the kids in BR, or Batman making the neon gang scatter in BF.
Good point. Completely forgot about those.
Guys, it's time to have this debate.
Both Burton and Snyder bring an amazing level of creative juice to visuals. But who holds the crown now? I'm actually thinking these days Snyder has the crown. What he presented in Batman v Superman was nothing short of spectacular. I just had to watch the opening Wayne murder scene to sit up and take notice.
What do others think?
I liked Batman's in BvS introduction because it was unique and unlike what we've seen before. One of the reasons why Batman's introduction in BB felt so flat to me was because as soon as we see him up close and personal he borrows the same "I'm Batman!" line from B89. Not to mention that Bale grabbed Falcone by the collar in a similar manner Keaton did to the mugger on the rooftop. It felt so "been there, done that", and I was unimpressed. Give me something new!
In BvS, we got something new alright. We see how Batman commands a frightening presence among
everybody. Even the hostages didn't want to come out of the cage; in fact, the cop with the shotgun freaked out upon seeing him, and he and Batman are supposed to be on the same side! And the way Batman escapes looked so inhuman, a true creature of the night.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 3 Jul 2016, 12:43
Guys, it's time to have this debate.
Both Burton and Snyder bring an amazing level of creative juice to visuals. But who holds the crown now? I'm actually thinking these days Snyder has the crown. What he presented in Batman v Superman was nothing short of spectacular. I just had to watch the opening Wayne murder scene to sit up and take notice.
What do others think?
Well, let me put it this way. If there was a director who continued staging these kind of characters in a "realistic" looking world with modern day skyscapers, I'm glad it's Snyder.
Now if you could combine Snyder's visuals together with Burton and Furst's Art Deco, or even the Gotham TV show aesthetic...bloody hell, that would be awesome. :o
Yep. And moments before we're told via Alfred that there was a problem with the graphite, and Bruce should avoid landing on his head. And then in the next scene, Batman headbuts Falcone. Hmmmmmmm.
As for visuals, they're both good, but I do think Snyder has upped the standard. I just watched the Knightmare scene again recently, and even that has its fair share of eye candy. Love the shot of Batman looking though the binoculars.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 3 Jul 2016, 12:43Guys, it's time to have this debate.
Both Burton and Snyder bring an amazing level of creative juice to visuals. But who holds the crown now? I'm actually thinking these days Snyder has the crown. What he presented in Batman v Superman was nothing short of spectacular. I just had to watch the opening Wayne murder scene to sit up and take notice.
What do others think?
It's tempting to say Snyder because of how much he nailed to perfection. But he crafted a sequel to MOS that co-featured Batman in it. When you start counting toes, you realize Batman doesn't show up all that often in the movie. He basically has three scenes: the kidnapping bit in the beginning, the Batmobile chase where he tries stealing the Kryptonite and then the showdown with Superman. Bruce has a fair amount of screen time and that stuff is awesome too but, again, ultimately his story is not only subservient to Superman's, it's wholly dependent upon Superman. Whereas Superman's story isn't directly related to Batman. A good bit of Clark's story is about Batman but not really
AGAINST Batman.
Meanwhile Burton told two stories all about Batman where he twisted, turned, disassembled and reassembled the character, gave the Batman mythos an entirely new world of aesthetic possiblities and, I would argue, created the "modern" superhero franchise.
In brief, Burton had a much bigger mountain to climb.
What I wouldn't give for Snyder to direct a solo Batfleck movie... but that doesn't seem likely. And until or unless that happens, a comparison between the two seems a bit unfair since Snyder didn't have to do anywhere near as much heavy lifting with Batman as Burton did. I mean, for pure visceral grit, visual flair and grab-you-by-the-nards emotion, I can't imagine Snyder's Wayne murder sequence ever being topped in my lifetime. But Burton had the tougher gig in my opinion.
So here we are.
Think not just about the Batman scenes, but the overall package Snyder presents. There's also some lovely Superman imagery. I'll have to screen cap the film when the home release comes out.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 3 Jul 2016, 12:43
Guys, it's time to have this debate.
Both Burton and Snyder bring an amazing level of creative juice to visuals. But who holds the crown now? I'm actually thinking these days Snyder has the crown. What he presented in Batman v Superman was nothing short of spectacular. I just had to watch the opening Wayne murder scene to sit up and take notice.
What do others think?
To paraphrase a remark by Bob Kane, Burton had to establish a workable cinematic language equivalent to the literary forms comic creators had employed for decades. In doing so, he laid the groundwork for all of his successors. Schumacher, Nolan and Snyder all put their own spin on the iconography, but each of them built upon the foundations laid out by Burton in 1989. And Burton did it on a much tighter budget, with less time and fewer resources at his disposal. Burton was the first visualist to successfully translate the 'serious' Batman into live action. Everyone else since has followed his lead.
Not to overstate things, but in purely visual terms I don't think anyone has had a bigger impact on Batman's live action success than Tim Burton.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 3 Jul 2016, 13:58Think not just about the Batman scenes, but the overall package Snyder presents. There's also some lovely Superman imagery. I'll have to screen cap the film when the home release comes out.
That much, I'll agree with. I restricted my remarks to Batman because I assumed that was your intent.
In terms of stylization, I'm prepared to say Snyder has taken it to the next level. He's brought a visual comic book influence that I hadn't even realized how badly I missed after all those years of Nolan's version.
Yes, I enjoy Nolan's version. But I can't argue he didn't severely restrict Batman's aesthetic possibilities.
Overall, I really enjoy right now as a Batman fan and can't wait to see what the future brings. Which is better? Hard to say... but I love the hell out of both of them!
Burton's world still beats Snyders world for me; MOS was depressing and overall boring, it felt like a Nolanized version of Superman. It's not a bad film by any stretch, it's definitely the best superman film since the Donner days but it will never fit my ideals of what a superhero film should be. BvS I enjoyed quite a bit and haven't even seen the ultimate edition yet. Maybe when I do I will be swayed but Burton and Keatons versions are currently better IMO. BvS has a bad rap but some of the flaws are legit, mainly that it was a rushed film and there should have been a solo Batman film first.
Had there never been sequels to the 1989 film, it would have felt complete on it's own. It's a satisfying film with no prior knowledge or follow up required. BvS does follow MOS which is fine but it clearly wraps up storylines from the first film as well as clearly work as setting up future films. I find it more comparable to iron man 2 or the amazing spider-man 2. Now IM2 is well regarded today but mainly because the plot holes it opened up were resolved. Had the MCU died there, it would have felt like an incomplete film like TASM2. As of right now BvS is an unresolved setup but I have a feeling if the DCCU turns out successful, it will have a strong reputation going forward.
The mean reason Burton's film is better for me is the dialogue. While it wasn't as bad as the Nolan films are, BvS still had too much dialogue and speeches going on slowing down the plot. Keaton barely spoke in the cowl and when he did he got to the point. That was great, him using fewer words meant the lines he did have meant more. It also added a mystery element to the character. You never knew what he was thinking or about to do, making him unpredictable; this is also why despite being a bad actor, Kilmer's batman worked. Affleck clearly took some cues from Keaton but Keaton is still the better of the two though both improved their films; even the biggest haters of BvS admit Affleck was not the problem and some people (myself included) feel Batman Returns was a flawed film which Keaton made better.
If we're strictly talking about Batman here, then I have to continue to give the nod to Burton. Even though I thoroughly enjoyed what Snyder has given us with his interpretation of Batman, overall, Burton's vision is what continues to come to mind whenever I think of Batman.
It's had that sort of influence on me.
If we're talking the comic book version, it's either Bob Kane, or Jim Aparo's Batman that are tops for me.
When I first saw BvS, and we see Batman in the batwing firing upon the goons, followed by a closeup on Batman's face, I turned to my friend and we both had a big knowing, nostalgic smile on our faces. It was just like the good old days with Keaton in B89. Small moment, but it transported me back in time. Loved it.
Bruce Wayne's poetic narration at the start of the film is growing on me.
(https://i.redditmedia.com/__0XxFAgqTAw7R41uCsnfBHFRMpx5pZWhOmZlGvwW7I.jpg?s=52cdea3eba2e12276b6b059cfd7fd8be)
I bet his reference to "a beautiful lie" is discovering his sense of purpose in life by becoming Batman with a set of ideals, only to realise it gave him false hope and opens to another world of tragedy and hopelessness. This is emphasised further when we see Bruce experiencing what's happening in Metropolis.
The anti BvS crowd simply do NOT get the movie. Nor can they accept the clear narrative choices the film makes. It is so infuriating. They act so smug and holier than thou, spouting their nonsense while holding onto critic reviews and Rotten Tomato scores. They cannot accept Batman killing in the film, even though there's narrative reason for it....and Bale did it anyway. Bottom line, they don't get it. Nor do they want to get it.
Look at the bright side, TDK, there are quite a number of people who are liking the Ultimate Edition a lot. One critic on the internet show Collider even came out saying "Now I feel really bad for Zack Snyder for all the flack he got", because he thought the theatrical version was missing crucial scenes that fleshed out the story.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 16 Jul 2016, 03:16The anti BvS crowd simply do NOT get the movie. Nor can they accept the clear narrative choices the film makes. It is so infuriating. They act so smug and holier than thou, spouting their nonsense while holding onto critic reviews and Rotten Tomato scores. They cannot accept Batman killing in the film, even though there's narrative reason for it....and Bale did it anyway. Bottom line, they don't get it. Nor do they want to get it.
Everybody has an agenda. Even fans.
Especially fans.
There's a breed of fan out there with baggage. Maybe they resent WB rebooting Superman and getting rid of all things Donner. Maybe they're still in love with Nolan's Batman and can't tolerate anything else. Maybe they're so torqued off at DC Comics for their editorial decisions that it bleeds into everything else.
But whatever the case, they simply cannot get with the DCEU. Or they won't. And even I still have a few things I'm concerned about relating to Superman.
At the end of the day though, the public's opinion is what matters. So far, the DCEU has far outgrossed the MCU at this equivalent point in Marvel's movie output. It's not even competitive. WB has accomplished more per capita than has Marvel. At least so far.
Many online personalities are softening their position on BVS. Suicide Squad has great buzz around it so far.
The tide is turning.
The detractors keep on saying Snyder has no plan, and there's no arc for the characters. Um...I strongly disagree. When Justice League comes out and has Batman reverting to his pre BvS self, that will be the proof. But then the haters will say "oh...that's just WB correcting their mistakes." You can't win with these people.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 16 Jul 2016, 04:43The detractors keep on saying Snyder has no plan, and there's no arc for the characters. Um...I strongly disagree. When Justice League comes out and has Batman reverting to his pre BvS self, that will be the proof. But then the haters will say "oh...that's just WB correcting their mistakes." You can't win with these people.
Arcs sometimes aren't apparent until late in the game. Writers often assume the audience will understand their game plan. They're rarely proven right. On the macroscopic level anyway.
I'm as guilty of that as anybody. It took until the early start of Smallville's tenth season to understand where the character had been and how much he truly had grown. But when I started analyzing the show, I realized it's an absurdly well-written character piece that does Superman proud more often than not. But it took a long time to get there.
But microscopically, I beg to differ with the DCEU detractors. Batman had a very clear and precise arc in BVS. He started the movie with a set of beliefs. By the end of the movie, circumstances had forced him to adopt a different set of beliefs. By any definition, that's an arc.
Indeed. The common angle people use is 'Snyder just thinks killing is cool, there's no arc!'. But time will be the ultimate proof, even though BvS states things quite clearly in the first place.
The Blu-Ray comes out in a week, so I'm eager to watch this on my 55" TV. BvS UC is one of my favourite DC products in existence. It's visual wallpaper. No other comic book film comes close in my opinion, other than Burton's two and Man of Steel.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 16 Jul 2016, 04:43
The detractors keep on saying Snyder has no plan, and there's no arc for the characters. Um...I strongly disagree. When Justice League comes out and has Batman reverting to his pre BvS self, that will be the proof. But then the haters will say "oh...that's just WB correcting their mistakes." You can't win with these people.
Yet if they rebooted Batman and Superman again, people would whine about having to sit through another origin story like they did with Spider-man.
I dig what they did with Doomsday in BvS. They made him Superman's superior in every way, as it should be. Strength? He's got big blue covered there. Heat vision? Superman brought a knife to a gunfight. Recovering from injury? Doomsday keeps going and actually becomes stronger from attacks. Doomy absorbs energy to decimate city blocks, whereas Supes retains energy inside his body. I think Doomsday being a deformity also plays well because Kal is a natural birth. Meaning he had free will to be whatever he wanted to be, whereas Doomy and others had specific tasks.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 12 Aug 2016, 11:22I dig what they did with Doomsday in BvS. They made him Superman's superior in every way, as it should be. Strength? He's got big blue covered there. Heat vision? Superman brought a knife to a gunfight. Recovering from injury? Doomsday keeps going and actually becomes stronger from attacks. Doomy absorbs energy to decimate city blocks, whereas Supes retains energy inside his body. I think Doomsday being a deformity also plays well because Kal is a natural birth. Meaning he had free will to be whatever he wanted to be, whereas Doomy and others had specific tasks.
There is that.
Another thing though is that Doomsday in the DCEU could only exist because Superman killed Zod. That single action ultimately led to Superman's own death... or something like it. One logical takeaway lesson for Superman (and perhaps others) is that taking a life may seem like small potatoes in the moment, even if (especially if) it leads to something noble in the short term like saving other lives.
But there is a price to be paid for that sort of thing... and in this case, Superman is the one who paid it with his own life at Doomsday's hands but also with his reputation at mass media's hands. Had Superman found a different way to take Zod down, might Batman have been less inclined to see Superman as a killer? We'll never know. But it's worth asking the question.
There's that, and it's all valid and well said.
Superman also died in the exact same way as his biological father. Impaled in the chest.
To circle back to the topic, I enjoy the scene that shows Clark searching for the witness (I forget the specifics) in Gotham City and bumping into some black people talking about Batman. One guy says "He's madder than ever" or some such.
The reason I like that is because it sets Batman up not as an urban legend but almost modern folklore where the innocent and the guilty talk about him. They know when he's feeling relaxed (relatively) or if he's more ticked off than usual. This isn't the first time those people have talked about Batman. It's probably not even the 100th time. It's part of their daily life.
It's incredibly rich universe-building.
But it also serves a double purpose. It's the audience's first glimpse of this stuff. And it's Clark's first glimpse too. He doesn't know what to make of this craziness that these local yokels just roll with and take for granted as normal.
Very well done.
Another good tidbit was Superman's line to Lex "You think I'll fight him for you?" I dig everything about Cavill in that scene. He's so calm and confident. He told Batman to hang it up and retire. But he'll settle all family business with Batman on his own schedule; not Lex's. He's not "protecting" Batman, per sé. He's simply unwilling to take Batman down just to appease Lex.
Again, very well done.
If I've got a gripe with BVS, it's how relatively little interaction Superman and Lex have with each other. Unlike STM and SR, BVS works better for only have those few scenes. STM and SR could've (and should've!) had more of those two characters interacting with each other and working through their conflicts.
BVS needs the dramatic reveal of Lex being set up early in the film and then being revealed as the true mastermind of everything that went wrong in the film. The structure cannot change there.
It's a necessary evil, and I get that. But Cavill and the Zuckerberg guy whose name escapes me really do play well off each other. There's no accounting for stuff like that when you're writing a script but it's still a crying shame they don't have more screen time together.
Then again, that's what future movies could be used for.
Way I see it, Luthor can come out of this clean. Just like the comics. Batman had him moved to Arkham Asylum. When the charges are laid, Lex simply pleads insanity and gets let off. Some more time passes, and he is declared sane once more. Cured by the good doctors at Arkham. Then Luthor gets out and retains his bald head and colder personality which developed from living in such a harsh environment. He also takes back control of his company and grows it. That's where the true hatred and resentment comes from between the two. Lex is pissed that his foe came back to life, and that the war goes on.
And Superman? Well, enough said. Lex had him killed. Clark probably found Lex weird before, but had no beef with him. Lex brought the beef to him, starting something from nothing. So now he hates his guts.
I think the brief altercations between Lex and Superman worked. Lex was a detached observer who had already made his mind up. He didn't want to get to know Clark, because he thought he already knew him. In his eyes, Superman was a dangerous fraud who had humanity fooled. There's a lot to work with and people who disregard it aren't seeing the big picture.