I recently read Kingdom Come.
I thought it was an intriguing story, it had a lot of religious references throughout. It's about Superman returning from a ten year exile to lead the rest of the Justice League against a new breed of volatile anti-heroes, while being unaware of an apocalyptic event that is about to come.
Interestingly the creators used the opportunity to take a swipe at modern superhero character design that was common at the time, by having Superman's successor - Magog - looking a little like X-Men's Cable.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F1%2F18%2FCable-promo-image.jpg%2F250px-Cable-promo-image.jpg&hash=de4a90fed1843db41131636be3c52236e245f097) (https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2Fe%2Fe0%2FMagogdcu0.jpg%2F250px-Magogdcu0.jpg&hash=ac11d1b9c69bd99079d8f00e2648e0e0a00f0f7f)
In this story, Metropolis embraces Magog after he killed the Joker, who poisoned the whole staff at the Daily Planet to death with smiling gas, including Lois Lane. Superman's popularity falls apart because his moral code is seen not being compatible with the times and villains became more ruthless. But when Magog is embraced, he becomes more and more reckless and dangerous as time passes by - inevitably prompting Superman to return. The dig at Cable, and anti-heroes created at the time, is shown by making Magog share physical similarities i.e. robotic arm, scarred eye and somewhat heavy artillery.
As far as Batman is concerned, Bruce Wayne wears mechanical prosthetics to support his upper body and neck, probably implying that he never recovered from the crippling injury that Bane inflicted upon him. Dick Grayson becomes Red Robin - whose face looks very similar to Michael Keaton.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F6%2F66%2FRed_Robin_%28Kingdom_Come%29.jpg%2F215px-Red_Robin_%28Kingdom_Come%29.jpg&hash=ae59e179284e659d14bc216acd507ed928a07761)
I love this book. It's probably my favourite Alex Ross comic.
I hadn't noticed the Red Robin/Keaton likeness before now, but since you mention it... yeah, that does look a bit like him.
I always think of this book as marking a massive shift in the tone of American comics. The mid eighties to mid nineties was an incredibly cynical and nihilistic era for the medium. Some comic historians have suggested this period should be referred to as The Dark Age, and with good reason. Just look at the superhero movies that were coming out during that time: Darkman (1990), Batman Returns (1992), The Crow (1994). All bleak, violent films that blurred the line between superhero adventure and outright horror. It was books like Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns that set the ball rolling in that direction. And by the second half of the nineties, Spawn comics were actually outselling Superman titles. People had an appetite for dark antiheroes, and the classic heroes of yesteryear seemed passé and obsolete.
But then Kingdom Come appears, depicting the battle between the old school heroes – dressed in bright colours and championing traditional moral values – and their nihilistic successors – the brutal darkly clad vigilantes who have no compunction about killing their enemies and destroying anything that gets in their way. Of course the classic heroes triumph and reclaim the world from the upstarts. And in a sense they also reclaimed the medium. After Kingdom Come was published, people became more receptive to the upbeat antics of the Silver Age. And that in turn paved the way for more upbeat superhero films like Sam Raimi's Spider-Man (2002).
It's a great book showcasing beautiful artwork and an uplifting tale of good triumphing over evil. Highly recommended.
I have a good friend who really got me into comics. His brother had loads of Marvel and DC stuff during the 90s and we would go through them all.
Once we went to college we frequented the comic shop there (only one about) picking up the odd book here and there.
The rest of our close circle of friends weren't into comics at all...and so we rarely talked about them as the years went on.
One comic transcended that. My friends brother collected the initial run of Kingdom Come. My friend brought them up to the dorms we were living in. All my friends sat in the same room. I read the first book and passed it on to one of my non-nerd mates. It was transcendent! Next thing the books were getting read and then passed from one to another. They were lapping it up. Loving it.
Remarkable, in no small part to Ross' artwork.
Good to know that this comic is more influential than I thought.
I found this fan-made trailer on YouTube ha ha! I'd like to know who is the hottie playing Wonder Woman? ;)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vchOGKIlUnA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vchOGKIlUnA)
Really love that comic.... got the TPB in... 98, 99? Hell, I don't remember. For those that have a penchant for over-analysis, this is a nice read.
Part 1: http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogspot.com/2010/12/we-need-hope-how-man-who-loves-mark.html
Part 2: http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogspot.com/2010/12/gods-of-yesterday-how-man-who-loves.html
Part 3: http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogspot.com/2010/12/now-for-democratic-response-mark-waid.html
Part 4: http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogspot.com/2010/12/we-have-to-work-togeth-how-heroes-learn.html
A YouTuber called kashchei2003 is trying to create a Kingdom Come fan edit, and he's doing it by modifying existing movie footage to resemble the story and characters as close as possible. Judging from these two teaser trailers, it's incredibly close to a live action Kingdom Come movie we're ever going to get. It includes Henry Cavill as Superman, Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, Clint Eastwood as Batman, and Michael Keaton as Red Robin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6092h4XRoU
https://youtu.be/iQkQ9W7c7YY
I had to take these screengrabs.
(https://i.imgur.com/PyYTq8f.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9XEdH9f.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/inv3Tea.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/j8RYDiY.gif)
^I told you all that Red Robin resembled a lot like Keaton in the comic, didn't I? What a great character edit there.
Let's just hope if the editor does complete this fan edit, it will be better than his first fan edit Superman: Doomsday starring Brandon Routh, Christian Bale and Lynn Collins. Despite the talent he has to manipulate the movie footage to create the Death of Superman story, the final cut was otherwise f***ing awful.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTKROMvUAAEMsTo?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTKROpeUEAEsXdF?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTKRPL6VsAAbv7b?format=jpg&name=large)
Strange now to think of a time when Alex Ross was more than a cover artist.
Yeah, I remember that Wizard sketchbook preview. At the time, nobody knew much about what Kingdom Come would be. The most anybody seemed to know was "It'll be like TDKR, but for the WHOLE of the DC universe". Which is accurate enough, when you think about it.
Whatever his limits and weaknesses might be, Alex Ross was SUCH a breath of fresh air in his time. After Marvels, there was a lot of interest to see what he'd do with the DC characters. Kingdom Come is controversial to me to this day. But I still enjoy the nostalgia and the excitement of Kingdom Come AS AN EVENT.
These days, not only could a magazine like Wizard never exist, but it's hard to imagine comics being exciting in this way ever again. I don't think either Marvel or DC has the courage to take a risk like Kingdom Come ever again.
He's doing an FF book soon.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 24 May 2022, 15:40
At the time, nobody knew much about what Kingdom Come would be. The most anybody seemed to know was "It'll be like TDKR, but for the WHOLE of the DC universe". Which is accurate enough, when you think about it.
And like TDKR, it's one and done for me. I don't need any sequels to the story. It's perfect as is.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 25 May 2022, 01:37And like TDKR, it's one and done for me. I don't need any sequels to the story. It's perfect as is.
Not sure about perfect. I'd tweak a LOT of the art.
My criticism of Alex Ross has always been that he spent more time learning his technique than he did learning the fundamentals. As a result, he has an inimitable style. But his layouts are often poorly constructed. He did a Justice League poster in 1996 or 1997 that I still can't believe made it past Quality Control.
Still, I enjoy KC for what it tries to be. I do see it as an heir to TDKR. It obviously doesn't even come close to TDKR's level of influence. But it does sort of reach for a similar tone to TDKR. Plus, it shines a light on characters that weren't seen as often in the DCU.
Most of all, I appreciate how this is a story could only have happened at DC. Marvel never would've had the ambition to tell this kind of story.
1996 Flashback with Alex Ross and Mark Waid discussing Kingdom Come.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FU6007wUEAAPoHt?format=jpg&name=large)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FU601UIVIAAZIu-?format=jpg&name=large)
Ideologically, the comic boils down Batman and Superman's approaches to this:
Superman thinks educating criminals will change their ways.
Batman knows scaring criminals will force them to obey the law.
People say that in the long term Superman will eventually win the day, as he will live longer and inspire the world. I used to see the merit in that argument, but not anymore. Kingdom Come accurately depicts that Superman's approach doesn't and won't work right now or in another hundred years. It's childish in concept and endangers more lives than it saves. Human nature doesn't improve all that much. Things generally get worse or stay the same.
As Sun Tzu said:
1. He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight
2. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces
3. He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks
4. He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared
5. He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign
War only erupts because of Superman's gulag indoctrination scheme. When it failed he didn't know what to do afterwards but keep trying. He was never going to change the minds of that crowd. Batman physically enters the fight because at that stage the survival of the planet was on the line due to the breakout.
Ideology without strategy is dangerous.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 14 Jun 2022, 02:06
Ideologically, the comic boils down Batman and Superman's approaches to this:
Superman thinks educating criminals will change their ways.
Batman knows scaring criminals will force them to obey the law.
People say that in the long term Superman will eventually win the day, as he will live longer and inspire the world. I used to see the merit in that argument, but not anymore. Kingdom Come accurately depicts that Superman's approach doesn't and won't work right now or in another hundred years. It's childish in concept and endangers more lives than it saves. Human nature doesn't improve all that much. Things generally get worse or stay the same.
As Sun Tzu said:
1. He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight
2. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces
3. He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks
4. He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared
5. He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign
War only erupts because of Superman's gulag indoctrination scheme. When it failed he didn't know what to do afterwards but keep trying. He was never going to change the minds of that crowd. Batman physically enters the fight because at that stage the survival of the planet was on the line due to the breakout.
Ideology without strategy is dangerous.
This touches on the dramatic limitations of Superman as a character. He's simply not cut out for something like this.
Still, I don't think Kingdom Come is the best example to evaluate Superman's efficacy. The story is essentially the Superman class of hero commenting upon the first wave Image Comics class of hero.
But in terms of Superman's usual characterization, I can't picture him locking people up without due process, denying every civil liberty they have in the book and then attempting to massacre the UN when they try to intervene.
The other thing to consider is that just about every decision Superman makes in KC is wrong. Sometimes mildly so, other times greatly so. Superman should have greater moral clarity than that.
But in terms of success, yeah, I genuinely believe that Superman is destined for success while Batman is destined for failure. Superman wages a never-ending battle for truth, justice and the American way. He's not aiming for any specific outcome. He just wants things to get better overall. There's no way he can fail. Meanwhile, using The Long Halloween as our guide, Batman's stated mission is to rid Gotham City of the evil that took his parents' lives. Frankly, there's no hope for success there. Anything other than success is failure and there's no way Batman can possibly win. Batman has one goal and it's utterly impossible.
Overall, Kingdom Come is an entertaining story. But it's something that people shouldn't take too seriously, I think.
Neither wins long term as entropy is the way of the world. It's only ever about the moment, how we manage our own timeline, and it's then the responsibility of each generation to either continue or abandon what was established. Nothing can change that. If I'm looking for a team leader I'm still choosing Batman instead of Superman. I believe there's an inherent weakness in most if not all Superman approaches, and we just have to look around the world today to see what weakness brings. The type of utopia Superman dreams about is equally impossible as a world without crime, and if he's not seeking any specific outcome how does he gauge success? It's literally flying blind and hoping to win by default. I think Kingdom Come generally captures the direction in which Superman views things, namely his naive world view not matching reality.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgXKjnEWQAMxpna?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgwJPR9UcAAnQYa?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgwNAG-UAAATJfU?format=jpg&name=large)